Elizabeth isn’t weak in the current version of persona. The community commonly sees her between top of mid tier and middle of high tier. She was only low tier in original P4A and the ps3 version of Ultimax.
I was recently checking 2.0 tier lists from 2022 shown on Dustloop and 4/5 top japanese players put her in the lower half of their lists, like the 2nd to lowest tier. Things could have changed now but those points Daz brought up are pretty big, and unless that somehow changes, even if her Gastly Wail could be used as a combo ender, I dont see her being more than just a mid tier character at the highest.
Yeah I clicked on this video expecting to not like it and it was pretty much what I expected: Someone completely misinformed into the 2.0 meta. She is strong and she is mid tier at worst, Tori destroys people with her and so does NBM. There are several characters worse than her.
@@Latias38Eh, Mamudoon is pretty easy to combo into and works very well as a combo ender super that sets up 236B Oki in awakening. We also can't forget that Liz LITERALLY can delete you on most touches with resources (which she gains passively). All her combos end in fear which gives her strike throw that leads into a fatal counter if she catches you. She realistically only needs to touch you twice to kill you. There's a lot of RPS in here gameplan but any wrong guess leads to you getting massively punished. In awakening she has some of the best Robbery potential in the game and can easily get 3k meterless. Which can lead into an easy 5k+ confirm on the next hit which is death to half the cast.Can't forget that her IK is actually pretty practical, especially against Yukiko's or Narukami's trying to skip past Neutral with their supers.
She also can resource dump with the best of them and get 8k with a OMB with unscaled poison damage on top. She's not the stronget in the game but I wouldn't say she's among the weakest
There are 2 ways of showing a character is a boss The Arc Sym method, carefully animating the character moves and specials to showcase their techniques as a superior art or power combine with lack of interest or care in the fight. Showing confidence and experience without needing to change a single number. And the SNK method, PTSD.
Little addendum; In the persona games, moves with the "dyne" suffix (Agidyne, Bufudyne, Ziodyne, etc) are typically the strongest version of their respective element. (at least while keeping their respective naming convention, Agi- Bufu- Zio-) Normal "-dyne" spells only target one opponent. Whereas spells with the "Ma-" preffix (Ex: Mabufudyne, Maziodyne, [and Agidyne gets to be special and has an extra R between Ma- and -agidyne, since that would look awkward as just "Maagidyne"]) attack all opponents in sight, though they come with the risk of striking an enemy who can absorb or even reflect it standing next to another enemy who can't. They also cost more MP than their normal counterpart. So elizabeth is actually nerfing herself somewhat in P4A, as she is intentionally using ill fitting crowd-striking spells against a singular target.
Ma-spells also typically come with a slightly reduced accuracy, though this is more potentially devestating in mainline SMT games with the press turn system than modern Persona as missing has a greater consequence of forfeiting some of the party's turns
I really like the idea of boss characters having weird mechanics no other character has, even if they backfire and make said boss character low tier. Since fighting games aren’t known for good storytelling, using the mechanics like this can tell a character’s story.
9:03 It’s worth pointing out that every version of Elizabeth up to the final patch could combo into Mahamaon anytime she had Burst for a One More Cancel. She could instantly kill you off of any hit, anywhere on screen, as long as she had full Burst. AND SHE WAS STILL LOW TIER. The accomplishment of Arc System Works of somehow making a character that had a Touch of Death of from anywhere on screen, passively regenerated meter, had a full screen sweep, and a healing super, and is still low tier is honestly impressive. It speaks volumes to the absurdity of P4AU that the major reasons Liz is bad is because she has bad defense. Her health is low, her moves are slow, she’s slow, and her DP can be THROW TECHED ON REACTION. Even worse, her Guard Cancel is just her DP except instead of invuln, it has guard point that ENDS TO EARLY which means it’s not even a true reversal. Elizabeth’s defense options are so bad she can spend 50 meter for a worse version of a meterless attack. Elizabeth is such a cool character and I really wish they had tried to fix her at some point. I understand that they were scared of making another Margret (who is very high tier) or over-tuning her into a monster, but it’s very unfortunate. She has such cool stuff just under the surface. For example, Ghastly Wail actually has another way to combo into it besides 18:00 and it’s a Fatal Counter 5C, which is triggered by the fear effect, and will put the opponent into the same stagger state. Coincidentally, Ghastly Whale will do MORE DAMAGE if the opponent has Fear and EVEN MORE DAMAGE if it can consume a Sword Stack. Most routes use the 18:00 method, but the 100 meter is still usually worth it because a full power Ghastly Wail takes 80% life at best and still takes a 1/4 of their life at max scaling. If you ever want to learn more about Elizabeth, check out her page on the Dustloop wiki, they have some amazing stuff there and they’re very dedicated to documenting this kinda stuff. Thanks for attending my TED Talk I love info-dumping about this game.
when it comes to Dustloop you do have to pay attention which version of the pages you are looking at specially now where 2.0's changes are now documented. Elizabeth is actually pretty good now/decent in 2.0 in fact on par with adachi which the vid doesn't seem that informed about
@nightwish1453 I dont remember Adachi being so low on the tier list! Either way, lower mid-tier to upper low-tier seems like a good spot for Liz. The Dustloop has really well documented patch notes on the transition to Ver. 2.0, and it's an interesting read. I need to start playing this game a bit more again.
@@wittynickname4870 adachi Isn’t bad in fact more or less the same competitive wise, it’s just bbtag where he is kind of nuts. My point being Elizabeth in 2.0 was given some welcoming buffs to here that give her a solid position now
@nightwish1453 oh my god I completely forgot I played Adachi in BBTag. I think that was my first fighting game ever. I should go back and take a look at some games I haven't played in a while. Especially since I remember them adding Rollback to Tag.
Meanwhile, JoJo: Heritage for the future: *So, this character has unblockable setups that go into ToD combo, Okizeme, again into ToD and ability to zone you out so hard you won't be even able to touch him. Yeah, he's pretty garbage, D tier.*
I am surprised you didn't mention that but the reason her specials have "ma" at the start is that ma means it's an aoe attack/buff in smt/persona games so agi is weak fire to single target and magi is weak all targets
And why Yukiko uses Maragidyne as a Super Ma(ha)- AOE Agi- SMT Fire spell Dyne- Tier 3 The spelling is changed for some spells Megidolaon is the Tier 3 version of Última, for example. Tier 2 is Megidola, basic is Megido
Haha, yeah it was originally mentioned but it was just part of the stuff I later cut out for fear of boring people with too much lore/JRPG references. Thank you for mentioning it here
shoutout to the ghastly wail being unique to her thing being just completely wrong. adachi has it, and they both have similar effects of dealing extra damage on feared enemies
Izanami isn't really a boss at any point before she becomes playable. You only fight Takemikazuchi, who happens to have Izanami assist it. She cannot be hit at any point and her name isn't even there, it's just "Takemikazuchi." Actual final bosses like Nu, Mu and Susano'o (not the final fight, but still) were also playable in the same game they debuted in, the first two just had explicitly buffed versions of them for those fights (and Nu was god tier even as a regular character) while the third one was a joke. The weird thing is that there IS a boss version of Izanami who is also buffed to high heaven (one of said buffs is ribcage that never passively drains barrier and Shadow DIO's counter as a new move) along with Nine and Ragna. For whatever reason, you never fight any of them in the story.
The unlimited versions of the boss characters (and Ragna) only appear in arcade mode if you fulfill specific conditions and Abyss mode for CF. Cuz we do fight all 3 boss characters in story mode just not in their unlimited mode. The last time they made an Unlim. character a requirement to clear story mode was in CT and technically CS2 since Terumi is the unlimited version of Hazama until CP (the game). They then made Terumi his own character and his own mechanics.
@@AlchemistStar50 yes, I know, but it's a really weird way to handle them and the Arcade mode fights are basically completely unrelated to the actual stories they tell. You just get one shot at beating a boss when credits roll and if you lose, that's it, you move on. I'm pretty sure Unlimited Hazama is fought in all versions of CS as a mandatory story boss. CP had no Unlimited bosses in story mode despite the whole cast getting those, but it didn't really have a climatic boss aside from Takemikazuchi anyway.
Elizabeth's Ma(Skills) are due to it being literally the AoE version of that attack in the games, the expensive, just as powerful, AoE version, she's literally wasting SP/Mana on a skill she doesn't have to use when the Single Target version would work just as well.
marg's bossmode version is the storngest character in the game. for competitive Margaret is still good like high tier but she has the yukaris and the aigises some of the p3 shadows like mitsuru, ken, Shabrys. she does make under top 10 though most likely
She always looked cool, especially in combo videos, but looks so hard to play in an actual match. Still love to hear her voice clips in the middle of a match!
I mean personally…. Especially because of story. It makes sense why she’s weaker. She’s losing her connection to the velvet room and becoming a trickster of her own. Also she might be low-mid-high wherever but Elizabeth still fucking went hard and I still love Elizabeth in the game
Characteristically, Elizabeth can afford to not go all out, because she's playful, she's having fun, and can afford to play with her food. She's taking the fight as serious as an adult playing the role of a villain around school children. Margaret, on the other hand, is a lot more intense and serious, because Margaret has no chill at all.
This was a SUPER fascinating video, especially that bit about Gill: Presenting a character as a "boss character" but designing them with flaws due to a lack of a universal mechanic. It reminded me of something I've been thinking about for years: how to make a boss character like Inferno from Soulcalibur 'fair.' In SCVI Inferno isn't allowed in Ranked or in competition because he's just a turbo charged version of Nightmare with rearranged moves that lead to different combos and a lot of unblockable attacks ON TOP OF his 6A+B being a spinning attack that can and usually does take off 90-95% of the opponent's health (spamming that single move alone makes the Legendary Arcade difficulty trivially easy). He wasn't always like this though. In SC1 and SCII he was a mimic who would do extra damage based on who he was mimicking (except Cervantes who got no bonus damage). I think it would be cool if he returned to being a mimic, but his mimicked styles could all be altered turbo charged versions. Having to learn multiple styles already dissuades tournament players from playing mimics like Edge Master, Charade, Combot, and Mokujin, but what if he couldn't cause Counter Hit damage like every other character? If there was a new meter system for all the characters that could be used for offense and defense, Inferno could be locked out of using that meter the way everyone else uses it, instead it's just a timer that builds up to him *randomly* swapping to an 'overpowered' moveset...until her 'burns out' and reverts to a basic, less insane moveset like Necrid (who was *not* broken, people just thought he was ugly and stupid).
Awesome video. As an Elizabeth main through and through, you pretty much covered every point about this character's design. Whether that be narratively/lore-wise, how it plays out in gameplay, and explaining the idea. My comment will pretty much be some small extra points to supplement what you've already said. Thank you so much for this video! It's great to hear more talk about the unique and great fighting game character designs Arcsys had done in translating the modern Persona games into a fighting game. Elizabeth's probably one of the best examples of this with all of her moves and mechanics. - Much like how many of the moves Elizabeth uses are her own versions of other characters' super moves, Mind Charge carries this motif by being her own version of Chie's Power Charge. Except instead of a stacking attack boost, it's Elizabeth sacrificing HP to go into Awakening. In a lore sense, this is essentially Elizabeth saying "I'm gonna try a bit now". This is substantiated by her voice clips when entering Awakening. - Another mechanic Elizabeth has is One-Handed Sword Master (shortened to OHSM for ease of typing among P4A players). Elizabeth gains this buff to Thanatos's physical attacks whenever using the move inputted with crouching C (it screams with a circular attack around it that launches enemies away). This buff is stackable up to 9 times and is consumed upon any attack where Thanatos is directly attacking you (all of the C normals, I think Mabufudyne, especially Ghastly Wail which is how that move ascends to near one-touch round closing damage). - This is mentioned in the editing to the video but I think this requires emphasis. Debilitate makes for a great defensive move. It pretty much functions like a better reversal than the actual universal reversal she has (Shuffle Time*) since it's a counter to any attacks lain on her. However, this move was NOT able to be used in a lot of situations because of the charge input it was given before. In order to input Debilitate, you have to hold forward and then snap back with A and/or B. Holding forward means you have to stop blocking. So the defensive move that you probably would be preparing when blocking requires you to stop blocking for almost a whole second???????? Because of this whacky input, the only practical times where you could do the charge input was if you were getting off of the ground and did it on wakeup or on round start. Unfortunate. In modern releases with the updated version of the game, Arcsys changed the input to now be Down and then snap Up. Above all, this is a significant "buff" in the sense that we now have a move that was usable outside of round start and when you're getting up. We finally had a tool to use in defense that opponents have to respect since Debilitate triggers whether the attack is high/low. (Crossups won't be caught). She also floats in the air so this move does effectively dodge throws too. *A slow command grab that, though invincible, is quite slow. It can be teched quite easily since the move is heavily telegraphed. Realistically, most times a player is caught by this move is if they were punish-grabbed: Caught in the middle of an attack. Even if this lands, Shuffle Time does no damage. Instead it inflicts a status ailment based on how much meter Elizabeth has. The ailment picked is in intervals of 0-49 SP Charm (passive steal SP), 50-99 Poison, 100-149 Fear, and max 150 Confuse (Left/Right are swapped). --------------- Now for some newer points! - Now a somewhat more tangible pattern with Elizabeth's design in games is the idea that, compared to her other two siblings, she has a leaning towards using magic and status ailments. In Persona Q, a superboss fight involving fighting all three Velvet Room siblings (Elizabeth, Theodore, and Margaret) showcases this really well. Margaret holds her place as a terrifying physical damage dealer (though not a stranger to spells), Theodore holds the position as a tank/support, and Elizabeth places down elemental spells and status ailments. This point is showcased with Elizabeth's gameplay pretty well as P4A players would generally relegate her movement and attacks to be roughly in the "zoner" archetype with Maziodyne and Maragidyne alike. - The reason I mention the status ailments is because more recent labbings with Elizabeth have given the realization that they're more important part of her gameplay than before. On paper, it's widely known that Elizabeth makes the most use out of ailments compared to other characters who have it on maybe two or three moves as little EX add-on's at most. Now comes something like Fear, something that's prevalent in a lot of her moves. 5/J.D (Thanatos command grab/bite), 2C (Scream), Ghastly Wail, her ground throw, etc. This move makes Elizabeth terrifying in close quarters because it both makes throws untechable and forces landed attacks to be Fatal Counters. Some have cited saying that Elizabeth is technically more of a grappler than Kanji since her normal throw is now basically a command grab with Fear in-effect. Less well-known is Poison. The main way poison is inflicted is through 2D (Thanatos on all-fours barfs poison into the ground). This move is not a blockable attack since it doesn't hit the opponent, it only applies Poison on contact. What makes this move great is that poison ticks down an opponent's health over time with no damage scaling. Now combine this with Elizabeth having some of the lengthiest combos in the game. In current day, it's ideal to try incorporating 2D early into a combo. This makes it so that the full 6 seconds of poison take effect *during* the combo. It makes for a sneaky great amount of additional damage that isn't counted in the combo. Another thing to add too. Using B Mind Charge (the version that gives you recoverable blue health) during a combo on top of the lengthy combos helps to levy the hp sacrifice if you can stall long enough to recover the hp. There's also using Diarahan to further recover the hp. So while on paper Elizabeth is really fragile. You also can theoretically give yourself a marginally wide hp gap against your opponent. The problem is the fact that you'll lose the blue hp on any landed hits. --------------- Overall, part of what makes Elizabeth difficult to play is that she has all these different mechanics that are strong in a vacuum. It's just that trying to work with all of them together while having a not-very-straightforward gameplan (due to comparatively awkward normal attacks) means you'll need to put a lot of work. You need to be flexible with your execution of combo routes since she has a lot of meter (Invigorate) and moves to incorporate for incredible damage. And being mindful of your combos is important for those unique reasons involving poison vs. healing vs.damage, etc. It's also paramount to be on-point during neutral since trying to stay at a range is key. Too close is suffocating with how limiting her defensive options are. This is also on top of the aforementioned low health she has (close second lowest). Which means you really can't afford to mess up. These small points on top of what Daz has discussed culminates to a character that's a lot of work with some great reward but is also highly risky to play. It's why Elizabeth is considered decent/middling since she has some strong strengths and struggling weaknesses. It's super fun playing her! Like with other Arcsys games, even the worst characters on a tier list can do some awesome gameplay. It's why these games are so fun. -------------- I'll edit in any additional points I can think of. Though, your thoroughness with Elizabeth's design is remarkable overall.
This got me thinking about the process of creating a boss character, at the very least the order. It seems that a boss character turned into a playable one usually turns out either horribly overpowered, underpowered or lacking what made them a boss to begin with. Would making a playable character and then creating a boss version change that at all? Would that just make the regular playable version boring and unbosslike? Would it make for an unfun boss? Just a stray thought that your video incited. Love things that make me think, your video is no exception. Great Job!
Persona does have boss versions of characters, although they arent playable. What you are looking for though is Blazblue Chrono Phantasma, where there is an extra mode that turns every character into a playable boss version of themselves. Its a fun silly mode where every character is at minimum overpowered, but again, it doesnt detract from the main fighting mode because its advertise as "extra." That is one way to do it right.
Street Fighter has sometimes created CPU-only versions of Bison by bolting all sorts of boss cheapness onto the existing balanced playable Bison designs. Yes, the playable version of Bison lacks the more absurd CPU abilities and features, but people knew that was the trade-off to get both a competitive complete playable Bison and an exaggerated unplayable Bison. As for how fun the CPU version was to fight, that was a matter of opinion tied to just what cheapness was added. Personally, SFA3 CPU Bison went hard into the unfun category when CPU input reading was combined with an absurdly good new full screen version of his Psycho Crusher. On the other hand, while the SFEX2 CPU Bison was also cheap, I found him a bit more fun to fight.
"...Elizabeth is focused almost entirely on being thematically powerful, and barely focused on being practically powerful." That's such an Elizabeth thing to do, love her for that
Elizabeth: "Don't worry, I'm not as fragile as I look." *has the 2nd lowest health in Persona 4 Arena* _I wonder if Yumi in Blazblue: Cross Tag Battle has the lowest health as well?_
What's probably a big shame is that Elizabeth is an example of my favorite character archetype in fighting games (conceptually at minimum): Composite. Composite characters are basically blue mages, they utilize the abilities of many, if not all of the other fighters in the roster. In fact, another more recent example of a playable composite BOSS character is ERROR Sora from Idol Showdown. She does have mostly Sora's moves, but she also has Korone's sprite jump and chainsaw, Fubuki's tail spin, Ayame's upward slashes, Aki's teleport, Coco's Dragon Drop, and Botan's... Something, hard to tell from a video. At this point I kinda lost the point I was driving. I just like composite characters and Elizabeth happens to be a cool one. Also Megidolaon will never not be satisfying to pull off. That's on par with SF6's Raging Demon.
I called it, Elizabeth suffers from the fact that she has taken a bunch of different tools but the designers gave no though into how those tools would fit together into a cohesive gameplan. This design of character can work (see seth from street fighter) but it requires you to understand what you are taking and how to modify the move into something that will make a cohesive gameplan function
fun fact ghastly wail is my least favorite move for enemies to have in persona, especially encounters where all enemies know evil smile and ghastly wail. :3
...i can already see the problems with Elizabeth with mind charge. She may have increased defenses and new toys to play with, but the problem is pretty clear cut: it literally puts her in the danger stat far. FAR later than any other character shown.
don't have much to add about it since i never played P4A, but when you pointed out vegeta big bang attack in dbfz, you reminded me that not only the fucker can use it at will when on Blue, but on the latest version of the game you can do it TWICE in a row!, doing a ABSURD and MASSIVE damage that is "Super" worthy (Fun fact, some combos mf did with Vegeta Blue can go to up 7 big bang attacks, its insane)
LOVE the video. I feel like you could have just been like "her dp sucks and the game is volatile" and that's all you really need to say, but man what a well scripted editorial!
I mess with P4A and FGs casually and even I could tell there's something up with Liz Even against CPUs I felt it was sometimes very hard to win neutral even with what I assume are buffs she got in Ultimax. Winning neutral often DID feel quite satisfying with her due to the massive amounts of damage she deals but still feels like she struggles a bit Despite this, out of all the characters I wanted to play in P4 I kinda found Elizabith to win out on like, vibes alone Something about playing as a character who narratively holds the weight of seeing some sort of lesser god feels fun, and it helps that I generally love P3, and that Thanatos is one of my overall favorite persona designs. Ghastly Wail is just fun too, cause I will always like doing almost half of someone's HP without needing to combo, even if it is impractical
You know what would have really just sold me on all these downsides being ok? If her defeat animation was just her clapping and congratulating the opponent. Like, did she lose? Sure. BUT SHE WASNT EVEN TRYING. The entire fight she was just screwing around for entertainment. That would have been such a cool justification to nerf a boss like her.
Fun fact! God hand is actually also Chie's special, so it can be argued Margaret's moveset isn't entirely unique either. I know your point was that Margaret has more unique tools than Elizabeth, though, so that point still stands.
The funny thing about Margaret is that almost all of her normals and specials are duplicates of each other. They recycled and repurposed the same sprites for tons of different tasks but it was extremely effective. As far as God Hand, Chie and Margaret use them in almost entirely different ways. Chie is a "you die" super. Margaret gets to use it as a combo extender for no meter, mixup with no superflash to give it away,, and it's invincible like a super until the fist comes down. And her air fireball is a shrunken sprite of Agneyastra but she can use it in 3 other ways too. Another fun fact. When Margaret was first revealed in the magazines, she was shown with 5 cards and Invigorate - I guess that was the prototype for Marie.
in 2.0 which the vid doesn't seem informed about, she is actually mid-upper tier now. they gave her a couple buff and is actually pretty decent. Bossmode Elizabeth on the other hand well let's just say only bossmode Margaret is the only one that outdoes her
Hell yeah, Elizabeth mains represent! She's easily my favourite to play in P4A, and probablu my favourite 2d fighter character of all time as well. And I'm definitely much better with her than my #2 option, Carl Clover, lmao
Actually low health is a huge problem in P4U, because it means that you can be combo'd to death from above 40% with ease, denying your Awakening comeback.
I ain't played a lotta charge characters... but I did have fun with a teleport dashing llama that had forward and backward. was fun to play "am I charging or actually just moving" but idk about a parry on either, on regular boom seems kinda like some weird shadow counter-esque parry done while blocking and forward seems like yer gambling hard without lightning reaction/startup time.
Eeeeh Naoto didn't really specialize in light and dark, Naoto had EVERYTHING, just only the single target variants, if you wanted spread weakness hits you use someone else, if you want more damage, use someone else with the boost skills to buff their one element a ton, if you want an all purpose character that can hit most weaknesses or use Megido to avoid resistance, you use naoto
I mean naoto is the only other party member (outside of yu) that gets light and dark skills through normal means.Also keeping the spirit of the video just like elizabeth in P4A naoto is probably the weakest party member because she covers most elements but her moves are just weaker compared to anyone else while also getting outclassed by Yu in flexibility terms
She only has those coverage options in Golden. In base P4, she was the designated Light, Dark, and Almighty party member, with some physical skills thrown in so that she wasn't stuck with just instant kills and high cost spells.
Elizabeth also has one of the worst dp's in the game and one of the worst autocombos. To be fair, only a handful of characters have good autocombos and its only the 3rd attack that matters for the bonus meter and burst meter. But the biggest reason imo is that P4A does not allow chip KO. Elizabeth is primarily a zoner with some grappling tools. So if you didn't kill and the opponent gets into awakening they get a good chance at a comeback and you can't zone them to kill. You'll have to try to beat with in a mixup and she has very limited tools for that. Failing that you'll try to beat them in neutral, which again she even more limited tools for that.
wrong, the problem with liz is that her universal reversal and her damage super don't work. the devs just thought she should have bullets in her kneecaps for some reason.
Ma skills in p3 were slightly inaccurate and weaker than the single target versions, not to mention while she herself is powerful...she doesnt exactly know how to fight properly, its why her fight is rigid in p3
So if Elizabeth isn't worth playing at all, then who would you recommend instead? I tried Elizabeth when I tried Ultimax 2.5, and didn't get that much out of her, now I know why she felt absolutely shit. So who would you recommend instead of Elizabeth?
she's actually good in 2.0 (.5 is just bug fixes so fair few say 2.5 since they are the same version). the FGC including arena's community do persuade you to main who you like not who is the best in the game and arena everyone can do bullshit things. just some are harder to use aigis and yukari being the hardest to learn but competitively end up right at the top
@@roachewy Liz light/dark instant kill supers in P4AU just became regular damage specials in BBTAG. Her IK counter super Megidoloan finally works from one hit like Hakumen's IK though.
Elizabeth isn’t weak in the current version of persona. The community commonly sees her between top of mid tier and middle of high tier. She was only low tier in original P4A and the ps3 version of Ultimax.
I was recently checking 2.0 tier lists from 2022 shown on Dustloop and 4/5 top japanese players put her in the lower half of their lists, like the 2nd to lowest tier.
Things could have changed now but those points Daz brought up are pretty big, and unless that somehow changes, even if her Gastly Wail could be used as a combo ender, I dont see her being more than just a mid tier character at the highest.
Yeah I clicked on this video expecting to not like it and it was pretty much what I expected: Someone completely misinformed into the 2.0 meta.
She is strong and she is mid tier at worst, Tori destroys people with her and so does NBM. There are several characters worse than her.
@@Latias38Eh, Mamudoon is pretty easy to combo into and works very well as a combo ender super that sets up 236B Oki in awakening. We also can't forget that Liz LITERALLY can delete you on most touches with resources (which she gains passively). All her combos end in fear which gives her strike throw that leads into a fatal counter if she catches you. She realistically only needs to touch you twice to kill you. There's a lot of RPS in here gameplan but any wrong guess leads to you getting massively punished. In awakening she has some of the best Robbery potential in the game and can easily get 3k meterless. Which can lead into an easy 5k+ confirm on the next hit which is death to half the cast.Can't forget that her IK is actually pretty practical, especially against Yukiko's or Narukami's trying to skip past Neutral with their supers.
She also can resource dump with the best of them and get 8k with a OMB with unscaled poison damage on top. She's not the stronget in the game but I wouldn't say she's among the weakest
Ya the latest update Liz is dramatically different. Not sure why he said she’s bottom tier when she’s not
Elizabeth is like an RPG boss, designed to look strong, but also designed to lose to you, lol.
Good point
It's funny that in the rpg her 'rules' make it so she's not really meant to lose to most people.
But in the fighting game...
There are 2 ways of showing a character is a boss
The Arc Sym method, carefully animating the character moves and specials to showcase their techniques as a superior art or power combine with lack of interest or care in the fight. Showing confidence and experience without needing to change a single number.
And the SNK method, PTSD.
Tekken method: being hard to use or absolutely broken. See Heihachi, Kazuya, etc
og guilty gear did both
justice was both beautiful to fight and damn near impossible to beat
gorgeous full screen lasers constantly
Are you the guy who got banned from the Fire Emblem discord?
SF Method: Make them able to zoom all over the place or be aggressively annoying.
MVC method: Make the boss really big and only have a torso and hand(s) to fight
All still pale in comparison to what they did for Vergil though
Little addendum;
In the persona games, moves with the "dyne" suffix (Agidyne, Bufudyne, Ziodyne, etc) are typically the strongest version of their respective element. (at least while keeping their respective naming convention, Agi- Bufu- Zio-)
Normal "-dyne" spells only target one opponent.
Whereas spells with the "Ma-" preffix (Ex: Mabufudyne, Maziodyne, [and Agidyne gets to be special and has an extra R between Ma- and -agidyne, since that would look awkward as just "Maagidyne"]) attack all opponents in sight, though they come with the risk of striking an enemy who can absorb or even reflect it standing next to another enemy who can't. They also cost more MP than their normal counterpart.
So elizabeth is actually nerfing herself somewhat in P4A, as she is intentionally using ill fitting crowd-striking spells against a singular target.
Ma-spells also typically come with a slightly reduced accuracy, though this is more potentially devestating in mainline SMT games with the press turn system than modern Persona as missing has a greater consequence of forfeiting some of the party's turns
I really like the idea of boss characters having weird mechanics no other character has, even if they backfire and make said boss character low tier. Since fighting games aren’t known for good storytelling, using the mechanics like this can tell a character’s story.
Additionally, for any viewers that don’t know;
Her “DP” is an approximately 20-frame startup command grab that can be throw tech-ed
Bought the game last week so thanks for the info!
What the fuck did I just read?
@@nolanstrife7350 one of the moves of all time!
@@danielbarnes1241 does it at least have armor?
@@nolanstrife7350 we got invuln
9:03 It’s worth pointing out that every version of Elizabeth up to the final patch could combo into Mahamaon anytime she had Burst for a One More Cancel. She could instantly kill you off of any hit, anywhere on screen, as long as she had full Burst. AND SHE WAS STILL LOW TIER.
The accomplishment of Arc System Works of somehow making a character that had a Touch of Death of from anywhere on screen, passively regenerated meter, had a full screen sweep, and a healing super, and is still low tier is honestly impressive.
It speaks volumes to the absurdity of P4AU that the major reasons Liz is bad is because she has bad defense. Her health is low, her moves are slow, she’s slow, and her DP can be THROW TECHED ON REACTION. Even worse, her Guard Cancel is just her DP except instead of invuln, it has guard point that ENDS TO EARLY which means it’s not even a true reversal. Elizabeth’s defense options are so bad she can spend 50 meter for a worse version of a meterless attack.
Elizabeth is such a cool character and I really wish they had tried to fix her at some point. I understand that they were scared of making another Margret (who is very high tier) or over-tuning her into a monster, but it’s very unfortunate. She has such cool stuff just under the surface. For example, Ghastly Wail actually has another way to combo into it besides 18:00 and it’s a Fatal Counter 5C, which is triggered by the fear effect, and will put the opponent into the same stagger state. Coincidentally, Ghastly Whale will do MORE DAMAGE if the opponent has Fear and EVEN MORE DAMAGE if it can consume a Sword Stack. Most routes use the 18:00 method, but the 100 meter is still usually worth it because a full power Ghastly Wail takes 80% life at best and still takes a 1/4 of their life at max scaling.
If you ever want to learn more about Elizabeth, check out her page on the Dustloop wiki, they have some amazing stuff there and they’re very dedicated to documenting this kinda stuff. Thanks for attending my TED Talk I love info-dumping about this game.
when it comes to Dustloop you do have to pay attention which version of the pages you are looking at specially now where 2.0's changes are now documented. Elizabeth is actually pretty good now/decent in 2.0 in fact on par with adachi which the vid doesn't seem that informed about
@nightwish1453 I dont remember Adachi being so low on the tier list! Either way, lower mid-tier to upper low-tier seems like a good spot for Liz. The Dustloop has really well documented patch notes on the transition to Ver. 2.0, and it's an interesting read. I need to start playing this game a bit more again.
@@wittynickname4870 adachi Isn’t bad in fact more or less the same competitive wise, it’s just bbtag where he is kind of nuts. My point being Elizabeth in 2.0 was given some welcoming buffs to here that give her a solid position now
@nightwish1453 oh my god I completely forgot I played Adachi in BBTag. I think that was my first fighting game ever. I should go back and take a look at some games I haven't played in a while. Especially since I remember them adding Rollback to Tag.
Meanwhile, JoJo: Heritage for the future: *So, this character has unblockable setups that go into ToD combo, Okizeme, again into ToD and ability to zone you out so hard you won't be even able to touch him. Yeah, he's pretty garbage, D tier.*
Sounds like she's not bad because she's a boss character, but because she's a compound character.
You seem to mistakenly believe that spells are character exclusive, it'd be weirder if Liz didnt have those moves
I am surprised you didn't mention that but the reason her specials have "ma" at the start is that ma means it's an aoe attack/buff in smt/persona games
so agi is weak fire to single target and magi is weak all targets
And why Yukiko uses Maragidyne as a Super
Ma(ha)- AOE
Agi- SMT Fire spell
Dyne- Tier 3
The spelling is changed for some spells
Megidolaon is the Tier 3 version of Última, for example. Tier 2 is Megidola, basic is Megido
Haha, yeah it was originally mentioned but it was just part of the stuff I later cut out for fear of boring people with too much lore/JRPG references. Thank you for mentioning it here
shoutout to the ghastly wail being unique to her thing being just completely wrong. adachi has it, and they both have similar effects of dealing extra damage on feared enemies
That became true for Ultimax. Liz was first. It also drives home the point that Liz rarely has anything exclusive.
Izanami isn't really a boss at any point before she becomes playable. You only fight Takemikazuchi, who happens to have Izanami assist it. She cannot be hit at any point and her name isn't even there, it's just "Takemikazuchi."
Actual final bosses like Nu, Mu and Susano'o (not the final fight, but still) were also playable in the same game they debuted in, the first two just had explicitly buffed versions of them for those fights (and Nu was god tier even as a regular character) while the third one was a joke.
The weird thing is that there IS a boss version of Izanami who is also buffed to high heaven (one of said buffs is ribcage that never passively drains barrier and Shadow DIO's counter as a new move) along with Nine and Ragna. For whatever reason, you never fight any of them in the story.
Susano'o is NOT a joke, what crack are you smoking? 💀
The unlimited versions of the boss characters (and Ragna) only appear in arcade mode if you fulfill specific conditions and Abyss mode for CF. Cuz we do fight all 3 boss characters in story mode just not in their unlimited mode. The last time they made an Unlim. character a requirement to clear story mode was in CT and technically CS2 since Terumi is the unlimited version of Hazama until CP (the game). They then made Terumi his own character and his own mechanics.
@@AlchemistStar50 yes, I know, but it's a really weird way to handle them and the Arcade mode fights are basically completely unrelated to the actual stories they tell. You just get one shot at beating a boss when credits roll and if you lose, that's it, you move on.
I'm pretty sure Unlimited Hazama is fought in all versions of CS as a mandatory story boss. CP had no Unlimited bosses in story mode despite the whole cast getting those, but it didn't really have a climatic boss aside from Takemikazuchi anyway.
Elizabeth's Ma(Skills) are due to it being literally the AoE version of that attack in the games, the expensive, just as powerful, AoE version, she's literally wasting SP/Mana on a skill she doesn't have to use when the Single Target version would work just as well.
Funny part is that her sister, also a boss, is top 5
marg's bossmode version is the storngest character in the game. for competitive Margaret is still good like high tier but she has the yukaris and the aigises some of the p3 shadows like mitsuru, ken, Shabrys. she does make under top 10 though most likely
She always looked cool, especially in combo videos, but looks so hard to play in an actual match. Still love to hear her voice clips in the middle of a match!
Yea, I love how she’s just narrating what she’s experiencing as it happens to her
I mean personally…. Especially because of story. It makes sense why she’s weaker. She’s losing her connection to the velvet room and becoming a trickster of her own.
Also she might be low-mid-high wherever but Elizabeth still fucking went hard and I still love Elizabeth in the game
Characteristically, Elizabeth can afford to not go all out, because she's playful, she's having fun, and can afford to play with her food. She's taking the fight as serious as an adult playing the role of a villain around school children. Margaret, on the other hand, is a lot more intense and serious, because Margaret has no chill at all.
This was a SUPER fascinating video, especially that bit about Gill: Presenting a character as a "boss character" but designing them with flaws due to a lack of a universal mechanic. It reminded me of something I've been thinking about for years: how to make a boss character like Inferno from Soulcalibur 'fair.' In SCVI Inferno isn't allowed in Ranked or in competition because he's just a turbo charged version of Nightmare with rearranged moves that lead to different combos and a lot of unblockable attacks ON TOP OF his 6A+B being a spinning attack that can and usually does take off 90-95% of the opponent's health (spamming that single move alone makes the Legendary Arcade difficulty trivially easy). He wasn't always like this though.
In SC1 and SCII he was a mimic who would do extra damage based on who he was mimicking (except Cervantes who got no bonus damage). I think it would be cool if he returned to being a mimic, but his mimicked styles could all be altered turbo charged versions. Having to learn multiple styles already dissuades tournament players from playing mimics like Edge Master, Charade, Combot, and Mokujin, but what if he couldn't cause Counter Hit damage like every other character? If there was a new meter system for all the characters that could be used for offense and defense, Inferno could be locked out of using that meter the way everyone else uses it, instead it's just a timer that builds up to him *randomly* swapping to an 'overpowered' moveset...until her 'burns out' and reverts to a basic, less insane moveset like Necrid (who was *not* broken, people just thought he was ugly and stupid).
Awesome video. As an Elizabeth main through and through, you pretty much covered every point about this character's design. Whether that be narratively/lore-wise, how it plays out in gameplay, and explaining the idea. My comment will pretty much be some small extra points to supplement what you've already said. Thank you so much for this video! It's great to hear more talk about the unique and great fighting game character designs Arcsys had done in translating the modern Persona games into a fighting game. Elizabeth's probably one of the best examples of this with all of her moves and mechanics.
- Much like how many of the moves Elizabeth uses are her own versions of other characters' super moves, Mind Charge carries this motif by being her own version of Chie's Power Charge. Except instead of a stacking attack boost, it's Elizabeth sacrificing HP to go into Awakening.
In a lore sense, this is essentially Elizabeth saying "I'm gonna try a bit now". This is substantiated by her voice clips when entering Awakening.
- Another mechanic Elizabeth has is One-Handed Sword Master (shortened to OHSM for ease of typing among P4A players). Elizabeth gains this buff to Thanatos's physical attacks whenever using the move inputted with crouching C (it screams with a circular attack around it that launches enemies away).
This buff is stackable up to 9 times and is consumed upon any attack where Thanatos is directly attacking you (all of the C normals, I think Mabufudyne, especially Ghastly Wail which is how that move ascends to near one-touch round closing damage).
- This is mentioned in the editing to the video but I think this requires emphasis.
Debilitate makes for a great defensive move. It pretty much functions like a better reversal than the actual universal reversal she has (Shuffle Time*) since it's a counter to any attacks lain on her. However, this move was NOT able to be used in a lot of situations because of the charge input it was given before.
In order to input Debilitate, you have to hold forward and then snap back with A and/or B. Holding forward means you have to stop blocking. So the defensive move that you probably would be preparing when blocking requires you to stop blocking for almost a whole second????????
Because of this whacky input, the only practical times where you could do the charge input was if you were getting off of the ground and did it on wakeup or on round start. Unfortunate.
In modern releases with the updated version of the game, Arcsys changed the input to now be Down and then snap Up. Above all, this is a significant "buff" in the sense that we now have a move that was usable outside of round start and when you're getting up. We finally had a tool to use in defense that opponents have to respect since Debilitate triggers whether the attack is high/low. (Crossups won't be caught). She also floats in the air so this move does effectively dodge throws too.
*A slow command grab that, though invincible, is quite slow. It can be teched quite easily since the move is heavily telegraphed. Realistically, most times a player is caught by this move is if they were punish-grabbed: Caught in the middle of an attack. Even if this lands, Shuffle Time does no damage. Instead it inflicts a status ailment based on how much meter Elizabeth has. The ailment picked is in intervals of 0-49 SP Charm (passive steal SP), 50-99 Poison, 100-149 Fear, and max 150 Confuse (Left/Right are swapped).
---------------
Now for some newer points!
- Now a somewhat more tangible pattern with Elizabeth's design in games is the idea that, compared to her other two siblings, she has a leaning towards using magic and status ailments. In Persona Q, a superboss fight involving fighting all three Velvet Room siblings (Elizabeth, Theodore, and Margaret) showcases this really well. Margaret holds her place as a terrifying physical damage dealer (though not a stranger to spells), Theodore holds the position as a tank/support, and Elizabeth places down elemental spells and status ailments.
This point is showcased with Elizabeth's gameplay pretty well as P4A players would generally relegate her movement and attacks to be roughly in the "zoner" archetype with Maziodyne and Maragidyne alike.
- The reason I mention the status ailments is because more recent labbings with Elizabeth have given the realization that they're more important part of her gameplay than before. On paper, it's widely known that Elizabeth makes the most use out of ailments compared to other characters who have it on maybe two or three moves as little EX add-on's at most.
Now comes something like Fear, something that's prevalent in a lot of her moves. 5/J.D (Thanatos command grab/bite), 2C (Scream), Ghastly Wail, her ground throw, etc.
This move makes Elizabeth terrifying in close quarters because it both makes throws untechable and forces landed attacks to be Fatal Counters. Some have cited saying that Elizabeth is technically more of a grappler than Kanji since her normal throw is now basically a command grab with Fear in-effect.
Less well-known is Poison. The main way poison is inflicted is through 2D (Thanatos on all-fours barfs poison into the ground).
This move is not a blockable attack since it doesn't hit the opponent, it only applies Poison on contact.
What makes this move great is that poison ticks down an opponent's health over time with no damage scaling.
Now combine this with Elizabeth having some of the lengthiest combos in the game.
In current day, it's ideal to try incorporating 2D early into a combo. This makes it so that the full 6 seconds of poison take effect *during* the combo. It makes for a sneaky great amount of additional damage that isn't counted in the combo.
Another thing to add too.
Using B Mind Charge (the version that gives you recoverable blue health) during a combo on top of the lengthy combos helps to levy the hp sacrifice if you can stall long enough to recover the hp.
There's also using Diarahan to further recover the hp.
So while on paper Elizabeth is really fragile. You also can theoretically give yourself a marginally wide hp gap against your opponent. The problem is the fact that you'll lose the blue hp on any landed hits.
---------------
Overall, part of what makes Elizabeth difficult to play is that she has all these different mechanics that are strong in a vacuum. It's just that trying to work with all of them together while having a not-very-straightforward gameplan (due to comparatively awkward normal attacks) means you'll need to put a lot of work.
You need to be flexible with your execution of combo routes since she has a lot of meter (Invigorate) and moves to incorporate for incredible damage. And being mindful of your combos is important for those unique reasons involving poison vs. healing vs.damage, etc.
It's also paramount to be on-point during neutral since trying to stay at a range is key. Too close is suffocating with how limiting her defensive options are. This is also on top of the aforementioned low health she has (close second lowest). Which means you really can't afford to mess up.
These small points on top of what Daz has discussed culminates to a character that's a lot of work with some great reward but is also highly risky to play. It's why Elizabeth is considered decent/middling since she has some strong strengths and struggling weaknesses.
It's super fun playing her! Like with other Arcsys games, even the worst characters on a tier list can do some awesome gameplay. It's why these games are so fun.
--------------
I'll edit in any additional points I can think of. Though, your thoroughness with Elizabeth's design is remarkable overall.
This got me thinking about the process of creating a boss character, at the very least the order. It seems that a boss character turned into a playable one usually turns out either horribly overpowered, underpowered or lacking what made them a boss to begin with.
Would making a playable character and then creating a boss version change that at all? Would that just make the regular playable version boring and unbosslike? Would it make for an unfun boss?
Just a stray thought that your video incited. Love things that make me think, your video is no exception. Great Job!
Persona does have boss versions of characters, although they arent playable.
What you are looking for though is Blazblue Chrono Phantasma, where there is an extra mode that turns every character into a playable boss version of themselves. Its a fun silly mode where every character is at minimum overpowered, but again, it doesnt detract from the main fighting mode because its advertise as "extra." That is one way to do it right.
Street Fighter has sometimes created CPU-only versions of Bison by bolting all sorts of boss cheapness onto the existing balanced playable Bison designs. Yes, the playable version of Bison lacks the more absurd CPU abilities and features, but people knew that was the trade-off to get both a competitive complete playable Bison and an exaggerated unplayable Bison. As for how fun the CPU version was to fight, that was a matter of opinion tied to just what cheapness was added.
Personally, SFA3 CPU Bison went hard into the unfun category when CPU input reading was combined with an absurdly good new full screen version of his Psycho Crusher. On the other hand, while the SFEX2 CPU Bison was also cheap, I found him a bit more fun to fight.
"...Elizabeth is focused almost entirely on being thematically powerful, and barely focused on being practically powerful."
That's such an Elizabeth thing to do, love her for that
Elizabeth: "Don't worry, I'm not as fragile as I look." *has the 2nd lowest health in Persona 4 Arena*
_I wonder if Yumi in Blazblue: Cross Tag Battle has the lowest health as well?_
Blazblue nailed it with Izanami because she's the best top tier and a demon to play against she even has the pretzel motion for her Astral finisher
Worth noting are a few more ugly inputs like
Litchi's 6428C
&
Taokaka Astral
And silly mechanics like Hakumen's meter and Nine's magic
What's probably a big shame is that Elizabeth is an example of my favorite character archetype in fighting games (conceptually at minimum): Composite. Composite characters are basically blue mages, they utilize the abilities of many, if not all of the other fighters in the roster. In fact, another more recent example of a playable composite BOSS character is ERROR Sora from Idol Showdown. She does have mostly Sora's moves, but she also has Korone's sprite jump and chainsaw, Fubuki's tail spin, Ayame's upward slashes, Aki's teleport, Coco's Dragon Drop, and Botan's... Something, hard to tell from a video.
At this point I kinda lost the point I was driving. I just like composite characters and Elizabeth happens to be a cool one.
Also Megidolaon will never not be satisfying to pull off. That's on par with SF6's Raging Demon.
Any time Daz talks about Persona, I'm happy.
7:47 it could've been WIDER?! 0_0
(FYI, all SMT Ma- spells are AOE)
I called it, Elizabeth suffers from the fact that she has taken a bunch of different tools but the designers gave no though into how those tools would fit together into a cohesive gameplan.
This design of character can work (see seth from street fighter) but it requires you to understand what you are taking and how to modify the move into something that will make a cohesive gameplan function
fun fact ghastly wail is my least favorite move for enemies to have in persona, especially encounters where all enemies know evil smile and ghastly wail. :3
I wish we got the dancing all night games on PC
...i can already see the problems with Elizabeth with mind charge. She may have increased defenses and new toys to play with, but the problem is pretty clear cut: it literally puts her in the danger stat far. FAR later than any other character shown.
Didn't think of the supers as special
man Arc Sys is so cool I love seeing what they do with games
Oh hey persona 4 arena content, nice.
2:35 its actually only 10 percent more damage.
also most izanami players agree that her drive is much stronger than ribs
That parry actually sounds like a great wakeup reversal technique.
don't have much to add about it since i never played P4A, but when you pointed out vegeta big bang attack in dbfz, you reminded me that not only the fucker can use it at will when on Blue, but on the latest version of the game you can do it TWICE in a row!, doing a ABSURD and MASSIVE damage that is "Super" worthy (Fun fact, some combos mf did with Vegeta Blue can go to up 7 big bang attacks, its insane)
LOVE the video. I feel like you could have just been like "her dp sucks and the game is volatile" and that's all you really need to say, but man what a well scripted editorial!
The only other forward charge then back move I can think of is Vatista's beam in UNI.
Insert akihiko doom post here we was kings man
Heh; she's low tier until you see her in score attack mode... 🙃
at least shes funny
I mess with P4A and FGs casually and even I could tell there's something up with Liz
Even against CPUs I felt it was sometimes very hard to win neutral even with what I assume are buffs she got in Ultimax. Winning neutral often DID feel quite satisfying with her due to the massive amounts of damage she deals but still feels like she struggles a bit
Despite this, out of all the characters I wanted to play in P4 I kinda found Elizabith to win out on like, vibes alone
Something about playing as a character who narratively holds the weight of seeing some sort of lesser god feels fun, and it helps that I generally love P3, and that Thanatos is one of my overall favorite persona designs.
Ghastly Wail is just fun too, cause I will always like doing almost half of someone's HP without needing to combo, even if it is impractical
You know what would have really just sold me on all these downsides being ok? If her defeat animation was just her clapping and congratulating the opponent. Like, did she lose? Sure. BUT SHE WASNT EVEN TRYING. The entire fight she was just screwing around for entertainment.
That would have been such a cool justification to nerf a boss like her.
Well I'm glad that she's good in P4AU 2.0
Not to mention getting beat by Yu and friends
Fun fact! God hand is actually also Chie's special, so it can be argued Margaret's moveset isn't entirely unique either. I know your point was that Margaret has more unique tools than Elizabeth, though, so that point still stands.
The funny thing about Margaret is that almost all of her normals and specials are duplicates of each other. They recycled and repurposed the same sprites for tons of different tasks but it was extremely effective.
As far as God Hand, Chie and Margaret use them in almost entirely different ways. Chie is a "you die" super. Margaret gets to use it as a combo extender for no meter, mixup with no superflash to give it away,, and it's invincible like a super until the fist comes down. And her air fireball is a shrunken sprite of Agneyastra but she can use it in 3 other ways too.
Another fun fact. When Margaret was first revealed in the magazines, she was shown with 5 cards and Invigorate - I guess that was the prototype for Marie.
Another low tier appreciator
🗣️
My fav fighting game char is bbcf terumi
in 2.0 which the vid doesn't seem informed about, she is actually mid-upper tier now. they gave her a couple buff and is actually pretty decent. Bossmode Elizabeth on the other hand well let's just say only bossmode Margaret is the only one that outdoes her
Strive name aragalia, plays testament who primarily uses a scythe
Daz, is that intentional?
The Blue Reverberation?!
Daz is a project moon fan confirmed???
@@Kenitix Lol, Argalia is actually a friend of mine in that Strive clip. I have no idea what Project Moon is, sorry
I can confirm as that other Testament player’s friend that it is in fact a Project Moon reference
1:46 capcom with vergil:You let them play as the boss wtih completely accurate power level
Zeke Von Genbu, am I look like a joke to you?
Me- I'm mean yes, your are a joke xD
Why does bro have my name?
0:31 Step bro, help. I'm stuck
Hell yeah, Elizabeth mains represent! She's easily my favourite to play in P4A, and probablu my favourite 2d fighter character of all time as well. And I'm definitely much better with her than my #2 option, Carl Clover, lmao
Actually low health is a huge problem in P4U, because it means that you can be combo'd to death from above 40% with ease, denying your Awakening comeback.
the only [6]4 charge move I can think of is Vatista's in Under-Night and that one is a beam projectile lmao
7:00
O
M
G
XD
I hope that's still in the Switch port!
XD
switch port is practically the same as the PC port besides rollback. and the 2.0 ports contain all DLC besides some p4 anime music that they can't use
1 of my personal favorite fighting game characters
Then theres bbtag
Had to watch a Moopoke/Milpy Video before watching this.
I ain't played a lotta charge characters... but I did have fun with a teleport dashing llama that had forward and backward. was fun to play "am I charging or actually just moving" but idk about a parry on either, on regular boom seems kinda like some weird shadow counter-esque parry done while blocking and forward seems like yer gambling hard without lightning reaction/startup time.
20:00 if you want to play a game built around Gill's Retribution, just play Zenless Zone Zero instead
The worst DP and the worst IK, by the way.
Oh, and that was the wrong version of VAki. CVAki is very much balanced (and fun).
Eeeeh
Naoto didn't really specialize in light and dark, Naoto had EVERYTHING, just only the single target variants, if you wanted spread weakness hits you use someone else, if you want more damage, use someone else with the boost skills to buff their one element a ton, if you want an all purpose character that can hit most weaknesses or use Megido to avoid resistance, you use naoto
I mean naoto is the only other party member (outside of yu) that gets light and dark skills through normal means.Also keeping the spirit of the video just like elizabeth in P4A naoto is probably the weakest party member because she covers most elements but her moves are just weaker compared to anyone else while also getting outclassed by Yu in flexibility terms
She only has those coverage options in Golden. In base P4, she was the designated Light, Dark, and Almighty party member, with some physical skills thrown in so that she wasn't stuck with just instant kills and high cost spells.
Elizabeth also has one of the worst dp's in the game and one of the worst autocombos. To be fair, only a handful of characters have good autocombos and its only the 3rd attack that matters for the bonus meter and burst meter. But the biggest reason imo is that P4A does not allow chip KO. Elizabeth is primarily a zoner with some grappling tools. So if you didn't kill and the opponent gets into awakening they get a good chance at a comeback and you can't zone them to kill. You'll have to try to beat with in a mixup and she has very limited tools for that. Failing that you'll try to beat them in neutral, which again she even more limited tools for that.
Honestly she'd be even worse if they DID allow chip kill. Yukari Magarula and Shabrys Titanomachia would wipe her out
5:54 and she has a Healing Spell, BTW
I hate to be "that person" but it's pronounced ma-mudo-ON. Not M'doon.
wrong, the problem with liz is that her universal reversal and her damage super don't work.
the devs just thought she should have bullets in her kneecaps for some reason.
22:19 you would be right its a beam
Ma skills in p3 were slightly inaccurate and weaker than the single target versions, not to mention while she herself is powerful...she doesnt exactly know how to fight properly, its why her fight is rigid in p3
please I need a list of the BGM
4:40
She can WHAT?!
Bruh you gotta at least tell them why Hassou Tobi is Soviet damage on multiples of 8
;3
Great video, got me to redownload P4AU
The only other character i can think of ever having a forward charge move is Vatista, and you're right that aint a parry.
20:05 Thermal Shock
She kinda bad though
lol there is a really hard boss in ninja gaiden also by the same name
5:17 Why are you casting it with HP, GURL?! 0_0
So if Elizabeth isn't worth playing at all, then who would you recommend instead? I tried Elizabeth when I tried Ultimax 2.5, and didn't get that much out of her, now I know why she felt absolutely shit. So who would you recommend instead of Elizabeth?
she’s high tier in current meta lol
She’s mid to low high in current meta
she's actually good in 2.0 (.5 is just bug fixes so fair few say 2.5 since they are the same version). the FGC including arena's community do persuade you to main who you like not who is the best in the game and arena everyone can do bullshit things. just some are harder to use aigis and yukari being the hardest to learn but competitively end up right at the top
15:50 DAFUQ?! 0_0
you're too nice in your comments I think you should be a little bit meaner.
Good content
Funny enough she was terrible in bbtag also. Good assist but when she's alone? Ooooof
Correct me if i’m wrong but didn’t she have an instant kill special? Or am I thinking about some else
@@roachewy naato did
@@roachewy Liz light/dark instant kill supers in P4AU just became regular damage specials in BBTAG. Her IK counter super Megidoloan finally works from one hit like Hakumen's IK though.
lol she is not low tier. next video
Zammmne! Liz wuz vogueing daowne. Smurfy Sis is coming for what’s owed 💅🏾
Margret is a super boss too,wtf you mean?
Pog
Akuma isn’t “ryu with low health” and in st he is more op then his op playable version for different reasons all together.
16:57 *Memento Mori*
forward then back? Vatista
SNES
TUFF ENUFF
The Ryu/Ken characters
It's their second DP
The other one is Sakura's instead
XD