The Clone Wars Era Has A Massive Flaw
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- čas přidán 2. 06. 2024
- Though there's no questioning that the Separatists are being mislead by some truly evil figures, the vast majority of Star Wars media tends to disregard the original framing of the Clone Wars in favor of painting the Separatist cause in a bad light. The CIS was largely formed of mistreated outer rim worlds who suffered from the war just as much as anyone in the Republic, and the lack of Separatist stories leaves a critical theme of the war largely absent from canon.
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![The Entire Clone Wars Timeline [Canon]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/peg3vTiWAj8/mqdefault.jpg)
4:05 That is incorrect. The comic was released in 2015, 2 years before the Rebels episode which came out in 2017. So in reality it was the Rebels writers who were spiteful since they were the ones to say that this was the last queen egg on Geonosis, which wasn't really confirmed by the Vader comics.
Steal a dumb decision to kill off their species by making the queen unable to reproduce it was kind of lame.
Yeah this is my mistake. Either way it's an irritating direction to take the story but I'll pin this so people know I attributed blame to the wrong writer.
Heard a fan theory that the Clone Wars TV show is republic propaganda which is why it is so one-sided. It is also why every episode starts like a WWII newsreel because IT IS a wartime newsreel.
That sadly does not work due to the revelations surrounding Darth Sidious would fall in the face of it being simple propaganda.
@@kingorange7739 then we can say that the intros are republic propaganda.
@@miniaturejayhawk8702 the intros themselves can but not the entire episode which leads to the core of this problem.
@@miniaturejayhawk8702 Most of the intros reveal details that no one would know. The theory just doesn't work, lol.
@@LordVader1094exactly and iirc the reason it was so one sided is because of Sidious extending the war, had Sidious not played both sides the separatists would have lost much sooner. Sidious was of course using information of both sides to aid the other but it was much more in favour of the separatists to keep them running
The problem is the boring cop out of "oh it's just made for kids" or "star wars is for 12 year olds" as if that is an excuse for lazy writing. Republic Commando did the separatist faction justice by making them terrifying from a soldier's perspective.
Indeed. I completely agree with this.
Children need to be learning nuance, we don’t need more black and white narratives to destroy cooperation between disagreeing groups. This may technically be for children, but those children grow up soon enough, and their beliefs will shape the world. Who would you rather see shape the world? Adults capable of nuance, diplomacy and compassion? Or adults who bear tribalism, violence and hatred?
@@venus-pq5gg What we currently have are adult children who are capable of compassion only for people who want to kill them, and hatred toward those who just want to live.
The old Expanded Universe did this wonderfully too before TCW fucked it all up. Comics like The Battle of Jabiim showed fully fleshed out Separatist groups that had genuine grievances with the Republic and recognized the utter facade it really was. Neither the Republic nor the CIS were the good guys, the intention from the get go was to have a morally grey conflict between two factions who were all pawns of Palpatine.
TCW rapidly forgot that though, and for some reason people consider it to be the best thing since sliced bread. :/
@@tythedrunkenthird-gendarkt3795 Yup, the clone wars ruined everything that I liked about the prequels. They ruined ARC troopers, clone commandos, and then have the audacity to create the "Bad Batch" which was a cheap knock off of the Null-Class ARCs.
The episode of Clone Wars where we get to see the "Separatist"'s parliament and there perspective on the war was one of the most memorable episodes of Clone Wars. I'm glad it was made. And yes, it would have been great to see more of that.
And the republic dogs started the war again in the episode
Honestly, a story from the perspective of a separatist would fix a lot of these problems, since usually we tend to root for the main characters. If done right, the audience will become fond of the Separatist hero and by extension, gain a more nuanced view of their cause.
So basically, some of the good fanfics like Sublight Drive on SpaceBattles.
I would love to see Tony Gilroy doing an Anto Kreegyr spin off mostly about the separatist side of the clone wars?
@@evanboll4651 honestly that story is so good. Its really awesome to root for the seperatist.
Did we not see this in Bad Batch on Dessix?
@@irayankhan2658 True, but would it be cool if we get a live action clone wars era but mostly from POV of the separatist like Kreegyr plus it would have tony gilroy as the showrunner?
I think they also give unfair treatment to the battle droids compared to the clones. They parallel each other, yet the sentience of the droids is kind of downplayed despite the fact that they are clearly shown to have it.
I agree. I always disliked how Rex is presented as being in the right when he says that clones are not like droids, even though they basically are. They are programmed and manufactured. And like droids, clones can only develop individuality through experience. Heck, we literally see Trade Federation and CIS droids with individuality, such as OOM-9 and Kalani.
Robots are robots, they're not living creatures, you shouldn't care about the toasters with no souls.
@@russianoverkill3715 Mf they straight up show B1s caring about having shit jobs, getting promotions and fearing death.
@@russianoverkill3715Spoekn truly like an anti-droid rights activist. The droids are evidently sentient
yeah having droids clearly show sentience but are never treated as sentients is a problem that shows up all over star wars- it would be one thing if it was an intentional point about the blindspots of organics, but it's kinda just having the convenience of comic relief, almost-slave-labour and cheap cannon fodder for stories without having to 'feel bad' about it
The depiction of the CIS in Filioni's Clone Wars is the main reason why I personally don't like that show. I think Filoni totally squandered all potential at showing the moral nuances and shades of gray in the Separatist movement in favor of just portraying them as mustache twirling villains and I just can't get past that. Even the "Heroes On Both Sides" episode basically portrays even sympathetic Separatists as just manipulated NPCs with no bearing on the story. Hell, the Separatists in the movies alone came off way more humanized than they did in the Clone Wars show, like Dooku's tendency to mercy and Grievous' staunch loyalty and admiration for Dooku. Great video, you've earned a sub!
The Playable Characters in the CIS Side were Dooku, Grivous, Gunray, Wat Tambor, Poggle the Lesser...etc.
i'm the same as you. I think he destroyed Dooku and Greivious (and George allowed it or supported it). It became a childish cartoon with some grey or 'dark' themes occasionally that worked. My opinion of Filini is I hold him responsible for the failure of Star Wars as much as Kennedy.
@@ArgentWolf95 I think Lucas stopped caring about Star Wars after Revenge of the Sith and I don't blame him. The only Star Wars stuff I care about that was released after it are The Old Republic and The Acolyte.
@@ArgentWolf95Same here. What makes me so angry is how so many blind fans worship Dave Filoni when he's ruined the series so much.
@@TheFirstCurse1 glad others are starting to see it.
Another think that annoys me quite alot as a Star Wars ship fan is that we barely get any cool CIS fan designs, there is the Allocator-class and Overseer-class which are both amazing but super underdeveloped, it seems like all the other faction particularily the Empire just gets 10 000 new ship designs that look exactly like another Star Destroyer but with some dumb feature. Amazing video bro!
It’s possible that it’s because ISDs are a blanket template just asking to have more features thrown on, whereas all CIS ships are perfect and no fan could hope to outdo what’s already there so few have tried (can you tell I’m biased)
@@skyeblu3178 True, still sad to see every other faction get so much love compared to the CIS.
I always thought of a story where a once republic admiral turned to the separatists, and after the rise of the empire used their navy to be a bastion of rebellion.
You could even write in the return of the malevolence, explaining why the empire hasn't crushed them, or at least not yet. And this possible Admiral could harbour rebellious clones and what-not.
I need this to happen
I actually love this idea
There even is some existing Star Wars media linking the CIS to the early Galactic Rebellion, so that would work out in some way.
Honestly, I always found it weird and unfortunate that the CIS was almost universally the weakest part of the Clone Wars show and whenever I rewatched some episodes starring the Seperatists as the main antagonists, I was dissapointed with the one-note, one-dimensional portrail of the charakter associated with them.
Your video however is great in highlighting major problems with the faction. Love it a lot and definatly deserves a subscription ^^
That's because The Clone Wars 2008 is a watered down version of CWMMP.
@@russianoverkill3715 The CWMMP didn't do much better with the separatists
@@bacondorito it really did
@@bacondoritoyes it did
what are you waffling about?
It littarly did nothing to so any good from the separatist. All at showd was battles a nothing else @guy_with_no_name7317
how do we have a star wars youtuber that sounds like george lucas and nobody talks about it
This is not the first voice comparison comment I've gotten, but it's certainly one of the more surprising ones.
@@tlee3205 a surprise to be sure but a welcome one
OMG I HEAR IT NOW
I have to admit it hadn’t occurred to me that there has to be a wealth of story potential waiting on the Separatist side of the Clone Wars. Excellent video. Earned my sub.
I couldn´t agree more. And it hurts more when you think the only time they tried to show separatists in a nuanced way, the "Heroes on both sides arc", it was wonderfull episode, which also was very important for Ashoka.
I don’t think it’s Disney to blame on “dropping the ball” when these Clone Wars episodes were produced under George Lucas.
Also, the Tales of the Jedi series was produced under Disney, and the only credible instances of Disney actually altering or shaping any Star Wars projects I know of are George's treatments getting thrown out and Episode VII being a soft-reboot-sequel being a Bob Iger mandate. Ok, probably pretty safe to Young Jedi Adventures exists so they can have something to put on Disney Junior, but it's not like that was different from like, the Ewoks cartoon.
You dont get a galaxy wide revolt unless the goverment has some... issues, I think saying that of the people who in part lead the galaxy into chaos are mostly good is a bit iffy. I hate to say it, the best starwars storys you will hear now will come from GMs running starwars games, myself I played an grumpy CIS officer during the time of the early empire and we had a great adventure. Remember all, Raxus will rise again!"
the rim shall rise again
So, I wouldn't say the American Civil War was because the union had real "issues," as much as it was because the Confederacy in that war just wanted to keep slaves. It wasn't all that nuanced. In Star Wars, it isn't so much like that, but most of the separatist council kind of is just opportunistic and greedy, and that's how they've always been, even if Sidious is manipulating them. Dooku actually was an idealist, and Grievous's original backstory had him liberating his people, the Kaleesh, from an invading colonizing power when the Republic did nothing to protect them, so their portrayal is very disappointing in the show. I think showing the separatists more generally as having legitimate grievances is good, too bad the show barely cared to include them. Meanwhile, it added the Zygerrians to the separatists and did many other things to just make them look even worse.
@@1000g2g3g4g800999 "Oh the Outer Rim is the land of Traitors, Separatists, and Hutts, and Slavers.."
@@1000g2g3g4g800999 The Union did have Issues, again, I know you can only think in black and white, but thank real hard, if Britain, and Europe could free their slaves without starting wars and killing half a million of their own people, why couldn't the US. If the war was about Slavery, why does just under half of the states who have that as one of many reason they left. I get you can only think in Black and White, but maybe, just maybe, real civil wars, US included, is more complex then hurr durr slavery and single fucking words.
@@aaronlaughter6471right, it was money. Money gotten from exploiting human labor in a system of slavery.
I think this perspective is only true if you ignore the EU tbh. Whilst yes the Empire is still more fleshed out than the CIS, in Canon at least, the Empire is portrayed as almost comically evil, and Thrawn is not portrayed positively by Filoni in Rebels. The main issue with how the antagonists in both the Empire and the CIS stems from Dave Filoni. Prior to them, the CIS, and to a lesser extent, the Empire, were generally portrayed in more nuanced ways, or at least, the Republic wasn't clearly good.
The Rebels however have always been portrayed as the 'good' side of the war, and any lore mentioning terrorists like the Partisans either tries to deliberately distance those groups from the main Rebellion or they just ignore them later on, like with Berch Teller's group in the Tarkin novel, which reveals that the early Rebels were actually shielding themselves from the Empire by deliberately hiding behind civilian populations, usually pretending to be CIS holdouts whilst actually being old Republic Loyalists, and then striking out in blatant terror attacks (since Teller's group was blowing up unarmed repair facilities and civilian contractors, not just military targets)
Watch Andor, its the first time ive ever been able to view the Rebels vs Empire outside of a cartoonish view, its the first time ive actually felt a connection and strong reasoning for the Rebels
@@perseus3115 I have watched Andor. But the actions of the Empire in the show isn't enough to justify the terrorists.
@@tk-6967 its absolutely is enough to justify the rebellion, or at least fighting against the Empire, no matter what society you are in, you dont just imprison innocent people for life for nothing and to build a slave labor force
@@perseus3115 But that didn't happen until after rebel attacks were mounting up. That gave the ISB an excuse to grab more power, and since Palpatine was an extremely hands off ruler, he just allowed it.
Besides, you are suggesting that slave labour in of itself was not ubiquitous in the Star Wars galaxy. I agree that the new Imperial policy of inflating prison sentences and imprisoning people way too harshly was bad, but the act of using prisoners as a labour force in of itself isn't an issue.
@@tk-6967 it absolutely is a problem when you imprison innocents purposely to create said slave labor, the empire was self sabotaging anyways with its encroaching on neutral planets, galactic trade, and the rights of planets within the Empire.
Personally, if you held my feet to the fire and told me to pick a side, I would have to say that I'm pro-Separatist. All they wanted at the end of the day was independence from a corrupt system that had either ignored or exploited them for a thousand years.
Indeed.
The difference is Palpatine. Palpatine wanted to turn the Republic into the Empire, he wanted to set up the Separatists to fail. The majority of Separatists were fine, but manipulations ensured most of their leadership was evil to make them hateable and make the faction unstable. Even if Palpatine dropped dead of a heart attack half way through the war when the Separatists had the upper hand, the CIS was doomed to fail because all of it's leadership was deliberately picked to be shitty, selfish, and greedy.
We've gotten expanded material post-Clone Wars the show mainly, that has blurred those lines a lot. Bad Batch with them saving the one CIS leader, meeting a former Separatist on Dooku's throne world and seeing the pillaging he did to his own people, etc. Plus like you mentioned, seeing a lot of the Separatists turn into Rebels later. Once the CIS leadership was decapitated, the only people left were the actual idealists who had a point and wanted to do good. And they instantly started trying to worm out from under the Empire's boot and form the Rebellion.
I mean to a degree that is true. The sustainability of the CIS was always at best questionable. However I don't think that should get in the way of depicting the actual good Separatists during the Clone Wars. As much like the Revenge of the Sith crawl states, there are heroes on both sides.
I heard originally we were going to revisit Raxus in the clone wars in the unfinished dark disciple arc we also would’ve seen count Dooku make a speech on the republic and Jedi’s hypocrisy that speech is on CZcams for you to find
you did bring something up that i thought was good- (on the context of the writer who made the geonosian queen sterile) i think a lot of these older writers and fans who grew up with empire strikes back don’t like to accept that the prequel/clone wars era is awesome and that’s what most of the young fans are into now. I feel like they try everything in their power to make the galactic empire era appeal to us but it just will never be the clone wars no matter what they do. trying to kill off the clone wars is a terrible idea
Yes this is why there are 16 series of television related directly to clone wars and its immediate aftermath lol.
I just love love love to see the droid army. It would be cool to get more plots of post-clone war surviving droids
Agreed.
Hey buddy if you are curious i reccomend you check out the old clone wars multi media project.
Before clone wars 2008, there was an entire multi media project consisting of comics, novels and video games that portrayed the clone wars, starting after episode 2 to after episode 3 as the republic got turned into the empire. The CIS is massively expanded upon there.
But when tcw came out, it basically retconned all of the prior content even before a lot of the expanded universe was shelved into legends, because dave filoni didnt like continuity and so greenlit dozens of contradictory episodes and concepts, which is something thats become far more apparent these days.
I loved the Multimedia project, and it's been years since I've read it, but while I remember there being a focus on Dooku, some various Separatist units (like the whole Jabiim arc), but they didn't exactly had shown a proper CIS parliment IIRC. There had been much bigger divide between different CIS organisations like the Banking Clan etc, but feel free to correct me.
Very true. That's why I've never liked The Clone Wars CGI series.
I cared much more about post-RotJ EU than stories centered around the prequels, so it took me a while to notice, but Filoni's TCW did royally mess up the continuity. It's like the Disney Star Wars before Disney had Star Wars. I was aware of the multimedia project and how it did approach the "heroes on both sides" better.
@@Kissamiesstechnically speaking those books were never cannon. Lucas working on Clone wars solidifies what he wanted the clone wars to be
@@creed8712 Not this canon nonsense again! Lucas was pretty wishy-washy about the issue. I don't think he cared. He also was less involved in TCW than people think. Tossed a story idea to them every once in a while and left them to figure out what to make of it. Filoni was the king of TCW and he doesn't care about continuity. It would have been better for the universe if his CGI series was considered non-canon. In-universe propaganda broadcasts, for example. Unfortunately it was considered more canon because of Lucas involvement and the whole continuity started to unravel.
I've the feeling that Politics bore the casual star wars Fan... It's still regarded as one of the prequels major flaw... Sadly it's underrepresented in Films and Shows... Especially taking into account the fact that shallow shows like The mandalorian are loved by so many Casuals... They don't care bout politics and stuff just wanna see some Action...
Not gatekeeping here, just wanna point out why I think it's not such a big part...
I like the politics of star wars but agree a lot of the political scenes are boring, like you said in prequels. They need to introduce it in more interesting ways. Don't make a long scene of people slowly walking talking politics. I'm not a writer but the scene of Palpatine telling the story of Darth plagueis is great imo. If they wanted to touch on separatist politics they should show more of the separatist leaders and their scheming from their pov
@@kolbasa4368palpatine telling the story isn’t walking-talking, but is sitting-talking that much different?
@@roku144 yea I mentioned that because I don't mean everything has to be action scenes either. Sorry I'm bad at explaining. The Darth plagueis scene is much more interesting to me then Anakin and Padme discussing surface level politics while nothing else is going on. Idk how but there's gotta be a better way to show Anakin's views and also the separatist pov
The problem is Star Wars is super political, even The Mandalorian, and always had been. It’s about finding the right balance to keep audience attention and also balancing intrigue with message that is told in a way that is palatable and digestible by an audience. I actually think the Phantom Menace does that pretty well actually and that movies failings lie elsewhere and balance between the intrigue of the Sith with the message of the film as well as how they interrelate is good but… Phantom Menace is at the upper limit of how that works and by the time you reach Attack of the Clones it all becomes unclear and muddled. By no means is this a perfect formula and the amount of politics and the focus directly or indirectly on it depends on the story being told. Andor is very political despite having very little space cspan and a lot of action while Attack of the Clones has a lot of space cspan but fails to cut to the heart of the message and very little of it actually contributes to the main story being told, making it very boring and hard to watch.
I disagree.
The only problem I have with the Separatist POV is that they either fell for a line or knew it was a line and bought in just to achieve what the Republic would never give, often while aligning themselves with the very corporate powers that made the Outer Rim and non-Core worlds such a struggle to survive. OTOH, if they wanted to say that many local leaders knew who they were in with but went along just to finally get what the Republic would never grant them, that would be understandable. An approach of 'what are we in with?' could make their story very interesting indeed.
I mean in many ways yes, but also no. Though TCW wouldn't show it, the relationship with the corporations was always complicated since while they were responsible for much of the corruption in the Galactic Senate, they also stepped up to protect the Outer Rim against groups such as raiders, pirates, and crime cartels. Now yes, this was mostly done in the name of protecting their financial interests in these worlds, but it built a bridge of trust between the Outer Rim and the Mega Corporations even when they technically disliked each other. Essentially from a certain POV, the corporations proved that they were better at protecting the interests of the Outer Rim than the Republic ever could. This made it where once the secession crisis did start, most Outer Rim worlds were stuck between a rock and a hard place. Either they could side with the Republic who's corruption, excessive taxes, and negligence created the conditions for them to be exploited, or they could side with the Mega Corporations themselves in order for them to back a new government.
Have you read Dark Horse Clone wars era comics? They did a better job of showing grey of the clone wars era with the republic and separatist.
Very true.
They didn’t do that so much with making the CIS better but because the old clones were not…human? They weren’t as emotional as the new clones and acted much more like the droids
Coming from someone who likes The Clone Wars, even as far as accepting the way Battle Droids are depicted, I have to agree that they did mess up with making the CIS look like they’re not just morally wrong to the Republic. At best I could see that it tipped around that the way the Republic making multiple decisions to ignore the help of certain factions, such as not fully aiding Onderon and downright ignoring the Mandalore Conflict, but they still threw Separatist shade with the Banking Clan takeover and the Algorithm on Sako Minor.
Even when we did get Separatist supporters with focus onto them, they either turned to the Republic side from cartoonish villainy (Such as Onderon again), or had next to no focus on their people as anything but enemies (The Umbarans, an good arc but still with an example of the fault). I'd say aside from introduction to the Commando Droids, which gave us an unofficial adaptation of the B1s from Republic Commando, the entire CIS got a general downgrade in quality to their depiction of their faction.
I'm still for the goofier B1 Battle Droids though, even if the world doesn’t support that.
We need more stories about the NEUTRAL SYSTEMS.
I do like a little thing the clone wars made
There are basically 4 factions that divide the Republic and the CIS: the Jedi Order, the Republic Senate, the Separatist Parliament and the Executive Council
The Jedi Order and the Executive Council carry out the war effort with the first having more noble goals than the second; the Republic Senate and the Separatist Parliament deal with the politics behind the war and in this case the CIS is far more clean than the corrupt Republic
Honestly I think Sidius made sure to hire selfish monsters like Riff Tamson to become Separatist officials to further demonize his opposition, let these alien criminals be as unnecessarily cruel as possible so that the citizens of the Republic learn to fear the non humans and find safety in Palpatine's rule
They are, just based off of the thumbnail. I don’t blame George, the film characters did have a bit of nuance and their novelization Explores that further. TCW did such a large amount of damage that people ONLY see them that way. It wasn’t even the bad guys, the main characters are woefully mischaracterized, and most of it pokes huge holes in the storyline of the films. It’s why I constantly say that as fans we should put TCW and anything related in the Disney canon and the rest should stay in legends which afaik is how it is to Disney anyways. The way you know TCW shouldn’t be canon is that Georges T canon only existed because he’d planned on making shows of his own and he threw TCW in to allow his own freedom for the few episodes he was involved with meaning TCW damaged not only the films but the EU overall in a lot of big ways. The separatists mustached twirling were a symptom of Filonis shitty show that occasionally had good writing and action. Blame tcw people, stop worshipping that asshat
I would love a story of one of the first Clones to be let go from the Clone armies who teams up with a B1.
After being let go, the Clone finds out he’s not really loved or welcomed much. He’s an ex soldier and he can’t find a suitable job other than handling weapons in security or other jobs.
Angry at being thrown to the wayside like so much garbage and with no social skills beyond the brotherhood he shared with his Clones he just can’t make jobs stick. So he goes for bounty hunting.
As he travels he comes across a separatist planet, and finds to his surprise a lot of B1’s were never fully recovered and enough were stationed away from the front where their maintenance was lacking so they didn’t shut down with the rest.
Seeing these droids as discarded and without purpose as him, he decides to bring one and use the money they earn together to upgrade the B1 with one goal: to try and bring a little Order 66 to the people who made them.
great vid. it wasn’t until i binged all of UC gundam that i realised just how one-sided the prequel era is - and if i’m being honest, i barely even understand what the goals of the CIS are. star wars desperately needs a show or movie along the lines of hathaway’s flash or war in the pocket set in the prequel era because, as is, there is little nuance in the portrayal of this literal multi-year, galaxy-wide conflict
The sad thing is, this nuance used to exist in the Clone Wars Era before the 2012 animated series was made. The original Clone Wars multimedia project, while not perfect, had some great stories that portrayed both sides as both heroes and villains. One of my favorite Star Wars comics comes from this era of Star Wars. A comic called Jedi: Yoda followed a pair of padwans leading their clone forces in a campaign on a planet called Thustra after their masters are killed in a surprise suicide attack by the local Separatist forces. Those Separatists are entirely the local Thustran army with not a battle droid to be found. Yoda is sent in to help resolve the conflict because he is good friends with King Alaric the ruler of Thustra. King Alaric was not disloyal to the Republic but he was tired of it's corruption and so sided with the Separatists with plans to rejoin the Republic after. The story of the comic is one of failure, as two good friends are unable to stop a conflict fueled by greed and corruption on both sides. In the end, the flames of war consume Thustra. There is death on both sides of those both young and old. And the most heroic figures are Yoda and the King who both simply just want to find a peaceful outcome. It's a tragic story and one that reminds of the real world attempts by the various kings of the nations in WW1 to stop the war. Kings who reached out to cousins not as rulers but as family in a vain attempt to stop the war.
The Clone Wars Multi Media Project really did a good job in portraying the points the Separatists had and why they were fighting against the Republic. What is funny is the only thing the CWMMP didn't do for the Separatists was get into their government structure that much, something TCW actually did. Yet TCW also just wants to portray any Separatist part of the military as cartoonishly evil without any nuance.
in disney canon*
When I watched Attack of the Clones for the first time in theaters, I was quite surprised how non-threatening Count Dooku sounded when he captured Obi Wan and was genuinely looking forward to a reveal of Dooku being right when Obi Wan discovered Palpatine’s true nature.
I could see a different path taking place in that holding cell where a jumped-up battle-hungry Jedi fresh off of his first Sith kill believes only in absolutes and hates all non-Jedi. Then, he’s captured by an ex-Jedi, master of his former master, and has to witness as his own side comes down to massacre the entire planet of Geonosis with clone troops and everything, while Separatists flee in terror. Anakin rescues Obi Wan, but not before he’s forced to watch as his own side does war crimes and he is radicalized like his own master, and his master before him.
That’s the hidden truth of Jedi teachings, is they pass from generation to generation. Yoda to Dooku, Dooku to Qui Gon, Qui Gon to Obi Wan, Obi Wan to Luke. That rebel spirit was missing in Obi Wan, and it needed to be the real breaking point between him and Anakin, where Anakin became a slave to the state like he was a slave to his masters before. Begging for approval, not willing to leave and forge his own path.
I kind of agree, when i was i kid, i thought, seperatists meant bad and evil, but years later i wondered what could have been so bad about just wanting to be seperat, especially from a republic that they voluntarily joined.
Indeed.
This pov has big “the civil war was about states rights and the right to secede” energy when we know in both instances the actual reason for the secession(slavery and Palpatine needing a militarized republic)
I have one little issue with this video: When you mentioned Bad Batch, *you didn't include a mention of a Separatist holdout, that appeared in Season 2 Episode 2 of the show.*
Othetwise, your video made apparent what I subconciencly noted a long time ago... *The absolute lack of meaningfull Separarist content AND stories in Star Wars!* So thanks for making this great video, it really help me realize the major problem of Clone Wars Era!
I think some of that is because the Separatists as the planets and the Separatist's military fielded and led by a couple of galactic corporations, are basically separate entities in themselves. For that reason the military of the Separatists would rather fight for corporate interests and such and not so much for the interests of the people in the Confederacy of independent systems. Those people were basically only a workforce and legitimation to fuel the corporate war machine, in the pursuit of higher profits.
In many ways that is true. That is where a proper depiction of the CIS would depict both sides of the government and showcase how in spite of it being one faction, they were divided between many different interests.
@@kingorange7739 it sure would be nice to see more of that. Though it's not like there is nothing there. Basically any time we see about any member of the Separatist council (the one with the corpo bosses), we can see they mostly follow their own interests. Or in that one Clone Wars Episode with the Separatist Senate, none of the corpo bosses are there. Seemingly Count Dooku is the main and pretty much only link. It's even said there that the corporate alliance wouldn't allow peace talks, implying even though they aren't part of that senate, they have quite the influence.
@@ikrIkarusThe separatist senate is very close in function and influence as the Galactic Senate post empire takeover.
Growing up with the stuff before TCW, it always bugged me how the separatists were portrayed from then on.
They weren't characters, they were either evil madmen or incompetent dumbasses. Or evil dumbasses.
Don't even get me started on how they made the droids insufferably incompetent, to the point I wonder how they make it out of the factory without killing themselves.
But god forbid you criticize the clone wars, rabid fans will come crawling out of the cracks and attack you.
Real World Politics is why they don't get much development.
Plus, if memory serves, I'm fairly certain that the Heroes on Both Sides Arc made it clear that Bonteri's bloc of True Believers were the minority and often overruled by the capitalists, would-be tyrants, and war profiteers that made up the bulk of the CIS.
This franchise is primarily American in origin and fanbase, and we don't *really* like Confederacies. That ones of us with the ability to think critically, anyways.
Especially when we get Confederate Apologists and Lost Cause Morons trying to twist it into being a good cause with a few extremists.
I mean they weren't in the minority, however they were overshadowed by the Corporate powers. However that doesn't change the lack of coverage within the actual Separatist worlds that wanted to secede and why. That being said, the real world semantics don't really hold up when even the "Space Krauts" are given more depth. On top of that comparing the Confederacy of Independent Systems to the Confederate States of America is comparing Apples to Grapes. Like yes, they are both Confederations with right leaning policies. But that is pretty much where the similarities end.
I agree, there's a lot of unexplored worlds and stories in this era and faction. We don't need to focus on leaders but the people under them or who support them and go into the hows and whys of it.
3:02
But I'm not sure many would be interested in that era at this point anymore.
I think this was all intentional. You have to remember that the vast majority of people watching Star Wars is still adamant on there being a good vs evil struggle. I am still amazed at the amount of people having watched all content centered around the Prequel Era and still believing the Jedi Order to be this high and mighty battle horse.
Personally while I loved how Andor took a deep dive into both POVs: the Rebellion and the Empire, gifting us new insights into both factions, I wouldn't change how the Prequel era was laid out. The reason is that I got into Star Wars less than a year ago and quickly consumed pretty much all media on it, before getting into it I knew barely anything. I knew the Jedi were supposed to be white knights, protectors of the weak, that there was a green Jedi called Yoda and that the main villain was the dude in a black mask Darth Vader.
But watching the prequels and the clone wars it quickly became clear to me that so many things had been misrepresented. The Council seemed arrogant, inflexible and not as cool as I thought they would be. The Republic was full of flaws and corruption. And I did love how they let us think of the Separatists being horrible people except for couple of episodes where we are shown that the majority of the Separatists were just regular people tired of the Republic and they got drawn into a war they had no chance of winning. Because the prequels and the clone wars are written from the Republic's point of view, so of course their view isn't impartial, but I love that. Because any careful watcher will start seeing hints of things not being the way they are depicted.
I don't really stand with either Jedi nor Sith, Republic nor Empire. Both were extremes, both were wrong, both needed to change. Yes, the Sith/Empire were definitely worse but that doesn't mean we should just accept the Republic/Jedi as being the only choice or the best choice.
I also love how the Mandalorian started hinting that even after everything the Republic went through they learnt nothing. When rumors start to spread of the Empire still being alive they just dismiss it casually, showing us that it would be easy for the Empire to rise again. Isn't that how it all started in the Prequels? With an inflexible authority being too arrogant for its own good? "I don't believe the Sith could have returned without us knowing", well... that aged like milk.
Tales of the Jedi definitely made me see Dooku in a different light, before I thought he was just evil but then I understood he left the Order for similar reasons why the Separatists left the Republic. Unfortunately he got lost along the way, which tends to happen to many people who leave the Order. Many of them had valid reason not to like the Order anymore: Ahsoka, Anakin, Ventress, Dooku, Barriss, the Inquisitor, most of them just end up going from one extreme to the other, which is a shame.
Problem is TCW does not do a very good job at highlighting the cracks of a propagandized perception of the Republic.
I think what's interesting is that the message ends up being "inability to see and address the issues faced by the fringes of society will result in needless conflict and inevitable opportunities for power grabs in which we surrender even that ability to handle said grievances"
Oddly, TCW had an inverse effect on me with time in terms of which faction I found myself subconsciously rooting for. By around season 3 or so, I was starting to hope to see the droid army actually get a few big wins here and there, if only to really show the stakes the "good guys" were up against. Instead, almost every time the droid army takes one step forward, they're pushed 2 steps back, really undermining the overwhelming terrifying threat they're supposed to be, and making Sidious' grand plan seem less workable. Likewise, almost every named separatist character was a cruel villain, so it didn't do a good job of driving home the whole point of the faction; the faction really did need some more sympathetic characters. Near the end of TCW, aside from a few named characters, I really didn't care much for the republic faction because the separatists were clearly the underdogs in the story, and ended the series feeling somewhat disappointed.
What I also would've liked to see is more diving into the odd similarities between droids and clones, and how there are arguments for both. Both clones and droids were manufactured for the sole purpose of fighting, and there is a moral precedent against using living, sentient beings solely to be a meat shield. Likewise, however, there is a precedent against using droids that are clearly sentient themselves, which branches into a whole other realm of droid oppression in the SW setting as a whole.
I think a SW series, even a mini-series, focused around a separatist perspective would be great. Would be even better if we got some named droid characters, with the droid army actually shown in a competent light. It'd really tickle me if they somehow brought back OOM-9 into the fold and canonized the events of Galactic Battlegrounds, being basically the only B1 that was really good at commanding troops. Or something similar to bad batch focused around a post-clone war period with separatists characters trying to survive: a story of Kalani and his company after Agamar wouldn't be a bad place to start, especially if it got more former separatists involved.
To be honest, Im torn between you point that besides their armed forces, the Seperatists were simply left out while having something similar to the Galactic Republic. On the other hand I really loved how Clone Wars gave a lot of insights on the oncoming events, like the character development of Anakin. Without it, I would go as far as saying that he was a bad written character in the movies because of his changing of his personality that felt very abrupt between II and III, that never had a chance of bringing the balance to the galactic.
And as an addition, Bad Batch really did a great job filling the hole of telling how the things changed in the first days of the Galactic Empire, while following very interesting characters and meeting some old ones like Rex and Asokha. For me, its like the perfect finishing of Clone wars with some fine additions like some civilian insights, but from clones that find their way. And rebels really just felt like a series made out of a bunch of episodes that had the same characters by coincidence while having no storytelling and just some little interesting infos spread over the whole series (no hate if u like it I would understand why but I dont)
~ Just some random fan from that grew up with EP 1-6 and Clone Wars (ccurrently rewatching the 12th or so time xD)
Considering each episode begins with Admiral Yularen seemingly narrating, one could view the Clone wars merely as vestiges of republic propaganda, and thats what we're constantly fed. Of course this logic does not hold up for some of the anti-jedi order stuff (like Fugitive arc) but one can always assume.
It sounded like Yularen was the Narrator of the Show, & it's Written in his Diary
7:17 There is a phenomenal Grevious origin story, in Legends.
The current writers would give us a horrific origin for him if they wrote it now. 🤣
I also wish that the separatist senate couldve gotten more attention in the clone wars tv show, but the reason that it didnt is glaringly obvious. And that reason is that they didnt matter. The separatist senate was a dummy governement that was nothing more than a strawman for the republic to defeat to make room for the empire. The members of thjis senate were completely unaware of the atrocities committed by their armies and had no control or knowledge of the larger activities of Count dooku and droid armies. The ones really in control were the separatist council that we see in attack of the clones and revenge of the sith (with noot gunray and wat tambor) they were the ones actually in control along with count dooku.
Problem is that is reversing the cause and effect. While it is true the Separatists were ultimately finite on time, the potential of depth they had was extremely present and everything that you state as a reason why they weren't given depth was caused by the show itself. The show did not have to portray the Separatist Parliament is useless, they did not have reduce all Separatist activity in the war towards Dooku. They had room to portray the war from another angle, much like how Star Wars Legends did. However they didn't and the conflict has been made more stale because of it tragically.
Yup. Seperatist Senate had the same influence as the senate post empire takeover.
In Legends,
The separatist cause is far more fleshed out as well as the corruption of the Republic in the Republic Comics that cover the time is Phantom Menace up to early into the Empire.
The Jedi who saught to learn and represent the separatists points were drowned out in the Senate and killed by Assajj Ventriss while visiting Sora Bulq.
Honestly, the Dark Horse comics Republic (before Dsiney) showed the Separatist not as evil bad guys. I remember the battle of Jabiim were you had 2 Jabiim separatist just talking about the Jedi, how in their words they kidnap babies and cut people in half with their laser swords. And then you got the reason why they decided to secede with the Separatist because the Republic did nothing for them, when pirates came and enslaved them, the Republic did nothing, when they were dying due to a plague, the Republic did nothing. But when the Jabiim people found a rare resource here comes the Republic to demand them hand said resource over. They were more then Justified to leave a Republic.
And mind you, that's just one planet, a majority of separatist planets left because they thought the Republic was becoming so corrupt that they put the interest of business before there planet and people. Pre Sith Dooku, and many other Jedi believed this to be the case. And the Dark Horse comics pre Disney really showed how corrupt the Republic was during the Clone Wars.
Indeed. Yet these are topic points that aren't talked about and showcased that much within the Clone Wars timeframe.
This is a phenomenal video and take. I could totally see Disney making a Separatist -> Rebel story arc in a TV series. Honestly baffles my mind why they haven't done that yet.
They did its in Andor
Where are the last Grievous vs Nightsisters scenes from? Seems very new and interesting
Tales of the Empire Ep1
I’ve often dreamed of an Admiral Trench novel akin to the Tarkin one in canon. Even in cases where the character is clearly evil, exploring the mentality behind their evil would be extremely interesting with a Separatist story. What motivated them to that point? Xenophobia in the Republic? A personal vendetta against someone? Pure ideology? Etc
Agreed.
The Tarkin novel had a decent bit of its time from the perspective of some holdouts iirc.
Some of my favorite episodes in star wars the clone wars, is the political ones. I really want to see the stories of the separatist, because as you said, they have viable reasons, and shouldn't be played off as completely evil characters. I want a book, or something like tales of the Jedi (Tales of the Separatist?) which really gets into the topics that your presented. Overall great video.
Andor was a separatist before the empire. Still barely see what he did during the time of the clone wars though
I Love the Legends Canon version of General Grievous. His hatred for the Jedi is entirely warranted because in his experience as a leader from an independent planet the Jedi are not keepers of peace but just the Republic's attack dogs who massacred his people when they were defending themselves from being invaded by a Republic faction.
Same. He is truly a wonderful character in that continuity.
Viewers: man CZcams recs is lame
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Thank you for making this video.
In the end, Clone wars was also ment for children too and having a complex ethical and plitical dilemma, where neither of the sides are good or bad, makes it harder to focus or relate to a hero, kind of delegitemates the numerous long fights, which the *clone wars* needed to be, and just isn't that good vs bad thing, star wars always was.
Agreed. Its not even that the show could not had still been in favor of the Republic, it is just that the Separatists needed to have writing that showcased that they weren't just cartoonishly evil for the sake of being evil. Like have a few stories dedicated into showcasing more honorable Separatist commanders having to answer to bad political leadership. Like what Thrawn is in the Empire.
I completely agree with everything you've said in this video about the Pre-Disney Star Wars films. I always love the Star Wars prequel trilogy films no matter what (even with their flaws), but there was one flaw in particular in the Star Wars prequel trilogy films that I didn't like and that's how the Separatists were mostly portrayed as cartoonishly evil moustache-twirling villains instead of the morally ambiguous faction that it really was. Both the Separatists AND the Republic were controlled by Palpatine. Palpatine controlled the Republic as its Chancellor, while Palpatine controlled the Separatists as the Sith lord Darth Sidious. But from what I understand, the Separatists were originally a genuinely righteous group of beings throughout the Star Wars galaxy that wanted to secede from the increasingly corrupt Republic until the Separatists were co-opted by Palpatine. No matter which side won the Clone Wars, Palpatine would still win either way because he was controlling both sides of the Clone Wars. That was the whole point. In any case, the Separatists are my most favourite faction in the entire Star Wars franchise because the Separatists have endless storytelling potential.
Exactly
@@kingorange7739 Glad you agree.
One of my biggest problems with the need Star Wars writers feel to make the Republic "good" so long as it goes by that name is it creates this nonsensical situation where Palpatine altering the name of the state and abolishing term limits suddenly, inexplicably, turns the whole society authoritarian. The prequels heavily imply that simply by fighting the war at all, the Republic had already become the Empire in all but name; the Jedi were complicit in this, and Order 66 was simply the last domino. Now, not only is Order 66 *the* moment everything changes, an event of such singularly mythic importance that Darth Maul has nightmares about it, but it's also the moment the clones turn from heroic to villainous. Why are they not demanding ID from random people during the war, when they'd have a better justification to do so? Why aren't Wookiees being pressed into slave labor until the minute the CIS droid armies shut down? Well, because the government calls itself the Bad Name now, that's why!
Yeah, it really is unrealistic within the new canon. Legends in my opinion did a much better job in bridging the transition between Republic and Empire and really made clear how the Republic became more and more of a police state. It also created stories centered around more sympathetic and more justified Separatists to make clear that not all causes within fighting the Separatists were just. It may had still made the CIS evil, but it was evil with more nuance and demonstrated the Republic as evil as well.
@@kingorange7739 I wouldn't call this a Legends/canon issue. Most Clone Wars content, for understandable reasons, makes the war an adventure, but you're right that there's more sympathy for the Separatists and moral problems with the Republic overall. That said, I personally consider it Filoni's influence on the show that led to this overall tone and approach. It's also not a wholly bad influence, considering this show is the only source that gives the Seperatists a cosmopolitan capital world and people with normal political goals instead of letting the audience assume the government is openly run by a Sith Lord and a dozen space-billionaires.
@@ultratankie That much is very true. However it is just a shame that the show seems allergic to nuance. Even showcasing the Confederacy's capital, Raxus and showing the ordinary Separatists was mandated by George and not done out of Filoni's own volition which is kinda easy to tell given it is probably the only full episode that doesn't portray the Separatists as cartoonishly evil.
"Moving from villain to hero without ever changing their methods or their cause" has got to be one of my favorite things to happen in stories.
Indeed. Former enemies becoming allies is always a powerful story element. As it demonstrates maturity in the development of the characters, as well as the vastly different circumstances in the setting.
My personal opinon as a millennial that grew up with the prequels and the clone wars tv show as young adult is that it's Gen X producers, writers, and directors doing stuff like this. They HATED the prequels with capital H and didn't let up from 1999 to the mid 2010s end look endlessly pouring hate onto Lucas for not making prequels EXACTLY like the OG
trilogy. So much so that Lucas got fed up and sold the IP. Think like legions of people like Seth MacFarlane who never once made a homage to the prequels in any of his works. Kathleen Kennedy, JJ Abrams, Dave Filoni (by far the least worst) and others who handle the new Disney Era Star Wars are all Gen X. The CIS are the poster boys for the prequels and of course they got tar and feathering treatment as if they were Jar Jar himself. All due to the fact that it's not the OG trilogy and anything that's not OG is the horse arse as far as Gen X is concerned.
A thing ive always wanted is a clone wars or bad batch like show but for the seperatist side
I think the reason for this is, as you stated in the first minute, is that palpatine is controlling both sides, so learning more about the sepratists has no real purpose as they are ultimately just being manipulated and therefore need no focus in the eyes of the showrunners since it can't "lead" to anything else.
I mean the problem with that the Republic and Empire are also controlled by Palpatine, yet those factions get the necessary depth to have a great understanding of the factions as a whole. Plus Separatist characters can be important for establishing the early seeds of Rebellion after the Rise of the Empire.
@@kingorange7739 that’s because every single character important to the overarching story is connected to the republic, Anakin, obi wan, palpatine, padme, etc. The only characters who are a product of the clone wars show are the clones, so yes I agree a separatist focused show or movie would add to them but I think because they have almost no pre established characters besides Dooku and grievous they won’t
@@sar0jam I mean considering Dooku has only recently gotten fair coverage by the canon and characters like Grievous or Ventress still haven’t received much, stories covering their backstory and wider motives would go a long way. And that would add to relevance, also making original characters that stick is how they are relevant. For example turning a Separatist survivor into a member of the Rebel Alliance later on.
6:34 I think the general writing of the Separatists is mainly fuel for Palpatine. If we don't evaluate Stat Wars Collectively (meaning no SW The Old Republic), we're basically placed in more nuanced situation. The general conflict of Star Wars happens in three spheres, the initial being spiritual (Force, Jedi and Sith), then political, and finally plot development. You could say the third one doesn't make sense and that is fair, but how you are dropped in this Universe initially starts with out and pre context. The clone wars largely serve as Palpatine's emergence as the big bad, with Anakin being the center of development. Although it would be a nice touch of understanding of the Separatists, largely they were never going to win to begin with. The writing follows this idea as well because it make's clear Palpatine does not intend to keep himself at a disadvantage at all. Outside as being a pawn like faction for Palpatine, there is no chance for the Separatists to exist as a distinguished party because none of their member's were ever allowed to win. Now if I do break from my original point, if we look at events that completed the turn around of the war (the battle of Geonosis), there is a lot that could've been done before this to ensure that the Separatists weren't on the losing side. However, as the writing ordains, it just happens another secret was revealed in the republic's favor. If they choose to do an even number of advantages for both sides, this would impact Anakin's development massively, but the essential goal was to make sure Palpatine came on top.
I would go so far as to say just including characters from separatist species like the neimoidians or geonosians and presenting their culture, what it means to them and just fleshing them out as more then faceless mustache twirling villains would go a long way. You don’t even need to mention separatism if you don’t want to. Look at what Star Trek did to the Klingons and Ferengi, just by fleshing out their culture, those characters became much more sympathetic as well as their race as a whole. They didn’t need to retcon anything and if they needed a villain from one of those races it still was easy to do, doing the same thing with separatists could work just as easily.
Indeed.
1:45, If the intent was to start with the war being appearing relatively black and white in its morality, with the more villainous elements of the Separatists being more visible than the more benign elements, then I would say it was a success.
Unfortunately, this structure comes at the cost of potentially more interesting stories from the perspective of the Separatists.
I agree with you in most rights. One of things I really wanna to be fleshed out is the stories of the people in the sector and planetary defense forces, and the corporate security forces did most of the fighting in at least the first year in the war. Even you could take a more reasonable number of each unit of clones being entire battalion you still have the issue of all the space forces that had to fight in the conflict. Imagine being a member of a sector defense force your a glorified space cop are now fighting against highly advance droids or fleets led by Jedi admirals experienced in war instead of.On either side, those forces would’ve made up vast portion to a majority. From the Republic point of view these sector defense forces become the basis of the imperial Navy and imperial army. From the CIS side, whether your true believer or not you are now forced to work with corporate goons that are part of the reason your government considered succeeding anyway. And from the side of a corporate security, force officer, your security guard like for the trade federation the guy that protects cargo ships and now you have to fight a massive Galactic war. Nobody was prepared for this a war on this scale hasn’t been fought since the ruusan reformation 1000 year ago in Star Wars. Plenty of conflict but not on this scale.
I understand what you're saying and I agree that it would be nice for the CIS to have some good lighting shown to it so it's not just good vs evil all the time. At the same time I grew up with clone wars and the prequels mainly (although I saw the original movies first) and the way I see it, it's to express how sad the Clones lives are and how in the end they were just another tool to be thrown away and forgotten. Also Disney seems to hate Starwars and especially the Clone wars era since all they seem to put out is Empire vs rebellion and First order vs resistance stuff in basically all media.
True enough.
The Clone Wars will always be my favorite era of Star Wars, cuz unlike the other 2 that I’m sorry are strictly good vs evil (sorry guys no matter how much you spin it, the empire are space naz1s) the Republic & the Separatists truly have both good and evil people in it. Dooku, Grevious, Ventress (for at least a while) and the Separatist leaders were obviously evil, and the Clones & the Jedi were obviously good. But what’s funny is when you looks at the senators you can kinda see that a lot of the separatists senators were good guys wanting to be free & a lot of the republic senators just wanted to stay in power. I could go on and on but man this era is so fascinating
I feel star wars suffered greatly writing wise by having such a big part of it being relegated to a kids show. Thrawn got a similar treatment as he's supposed to be qn accomplished commander but always lost in his time on Rebels.
Add this to the miles long list of reasons why Star Wars needs to be rebooted. Get everyone out of there besides the Andor writer and only keep Rogue One and Andor as canon. Everything else goes and gets redone.
Do you have another channel out there? I swear you sound familiar.
Nope, this is it!
@tlee3205 Gotcha, you sound sort of like CompanyMan or WhatIfAltHist.
Great video by the way!
I agree. The average Separatist was just a normal person who was understandably felt frustrated with the Republic's treatment of them and wanted to break off and form their own government. It's a shame they got screwed over by the Sith and the galaxy's mega corporations.
It is indeed a big shame.
Since nothing disney makes can be considered canonical, you should look at some of the older actual canon books that came out b4 disney ruined everything.
Definitely an interesting point of view. The vast majority of Clone Wars was made by George Lucas himself, not disney, and George went out of his way multiple times to talk about how the expanded universe wasn't a part of his canon, especially once he started working on the prequels and started to contradict massive parts of legends. With that said Heir to the Empire was my first introduction to Star Wars and the Legends books as a whole remain some of my favorite Star Wars media, despite the massively varying quality.
@@tlee3205 Its not a "point of view" its objective reality. The only actual canon for star wars is pre-disney. And George didn't say anything about how the EU was not canonical. You should check your facts because you are getting things wrong..
"There's my world, which is the movies, and there's this other world that has been created, which I say is the parallel universe-the licensing world of the books, games and comic books. "
"I don't read that stuff. I haven't read any of the novels. I don't know anything about that world. That's a different world than my world."
"And now there have been novels about the events after Episode VI, which isn't at all what I would have done with it."
"Once Vader dies, the Emperor doesn't get cloned and Luke doesn't get married..."
Here are a couple quotes by George Lucas, easily found and verified with a quick Google search. George always made it clear that he was happy to let other people tell stories, but they weren't canon in the same way material from him was. This is why legends often lacked internal consistency, especially as we move to the prequel era and massive elements of certain plotlines like Boba Fett's identity get heavily retconned. I think you're trying to say that Legends is your PREFERRED canon, which I can respect, but the idea that it was somehow sacred is.. odd. But I'll leave you to it, thanks for watching the video!
@@tlee3205 Bruh, how are you not getting it? The only canon that exists is pre-disney. Nothing disney makes conforms to the established canon and directly contradicts it. That means that nothing disney makes will ever be canonical. This is objective demonstrable fact. Your quotes also contradict what you said, Gorge never said the EU was not canonical and the quotes you posted don't support your argument. You are getting your facts wrong again and not even reading what im telling you.
@@CharlesRichelieu-hv7sn me when i try to introduce someone to star wars legends, but theyve spent too long in the disneyslop turning their mind into a churned mess of baloney and assorted pork bits
where did saw take it too far? the infighting with his sister? - also whats your quelm with bad batch (i do agree its more of a kids show but this doesnt make it inherintly worse than andor or other series)
It is worse than Andor, but not because it is a kid's show but simply because the writing is not as strong there.
Saw got Tech killed, threatened to destroy the last Geonosian egg, tortured prisoners.. he's not exactly presented in a sympathetic light. As far as Bad Batch goes, I wouldn't say I had a problem with it, it just wasn't for me. I found the main cast a little stereotypical, they felt more like caricatures of video game classes than real people. There were definitely some great episodes but personally it just didn't grab me the way other shows have.
the worst part about the clone wars is how short they were. 3 years are simply not enough for a galaxy spanning war 3 decades would be way better
3 decades is too much, as not even the Empire lasted for that kinda period. However the war going from 6-10 years would have been much more realistic and much better aligned with the ages of the OT.
Honestly I feel that a good Separatist story had to be one that shows the dark side of revolutions. After all, the CIS is seen by fans as being an evil version of the Rebel Alliance. We can’t even say the Separatist Cause was corrupted because from its birth, it was always meant to be the force that pushed the Republic to become the Empire. Dooku was always dedicated to the plan.
A Separatist story would have to show how the Shadowfeed which was claimed to be an alternative to the Republic Holonet just became Separatist State Media to keep citizens from knowing about Separatist war crimes. We see the tensions between the Separatist Senate and Council given they have every reason to dislike each other even in war. We see how Dooku gets a cult of supporters who refuse to believe he can do everything wrong, like what Palpatine built during the Clone Wars so he could lead the Empire without opposition.
I mean, you have to admit that the Separatist Alliance can come off as a cruel scam to the people who got tired of Republic corruption and ineffectiveness. These guys are supposed to be the rebels of their era, but they are actually the ones who cause the most pain and suffering in their time.
I mean, I’m writing a Fanfiction of a Clone Wars battle in the Rishi Maze and some of the Separatist characters are going to be these real patriots who you would probably find in the Rebel Alliance. They’re going to spend the story learning the horrible truth about their military and Dooku and want to tell everyone back home. However even if I decide that some of them make it back home, I probably won’t have them be believed. Look at how Separatist politicians react when Lux Bonteri claims Dooku murdered his mother. One of those guys goes on to be shocked when Dooku takes over the Banking Clan against the wishes of the Senate. There are even Separatists after the war who act like Dooku was right about the Republic. Yes, it was corrupt and yes it turned into the Galactic Empire, but Dooku helped a lot with the Separatists. One of these Separatists was even friends with Mina and probably doesn’t believe Dooku is her killer. Though to be fair, how can they ever learn the truth now that the Empire is in charge?
This is good point, never really gave it much of a thought but very well said 👏
this is the issue of the entire starwars lore. the good guys are just good and the bad guys are comically evil
I mean if we are talking about the films, then kinda. I mean while the Empire was always evil, its portrayal in the OT does not have the same comical issues plaguing it like it did in the Disney Canon. For example, ANH's Death Star conference scene does a good job of portraying the internal politics of a totalitarian regime.
you made a great point about disneys ''faction'' we know nothing of them after the trilogy's end. they feel like they dont exist outside of the films, motive? nope. size? nope,rise /fall to power? nope. hell the film literally pick up right after the other with no space in between for world building.
say what you want for the prequels, but after watching the phantom menace, you know who the separatist are, their grievances, the pre-palpatine republic and its issues, and the jedi,s reluctance to directly mold it in a better way
Indeed. It is a large shame known of the ST factions were given any kind of depth. Of course it is just one out of many big problems the ST has.
great video one thing i want to point out is the fact that dooku is purely evil. in the comics he killed a great soldier just bc he loved the guy’s wife. His vision of the galaxy was the EXACT same as sidious minus the fact that he was supposed to be in vader’s place. the plagueis novel really shows how dooku has fallen and his will to commit genocide and large scale death solely for his own power to reshape the galaxy
I mean, in some ways yes.
If making the queen sterile is boneheaded then I guess infertility in real life is evolution being boneheaded.
You can just say you wished for a different approach without attacking the quality of the writers' approach.
I find it very cautionary to say with your story: "Extinction is an irreversible tragedy. The last hope is infertile and it's the war's fault that that's a problem."
Its represented perfectly from the point of Lucas story. You have the repuplic that is underminded by corruption and you have you have people who are against this falling constitution for diffrent reasons(representation, lack of results(the courts will take years Ep1)or hatered for various reasons) and similar to reality they support a cause that in the end is even worse for them. Additionaly it is just a proxy war to cover up the real war, the fight against seperation of power in a democracy.
I personaly felt that this was all established in ep1with the senat scene(+ the last scene after "they won" where George refrences "the fall of the roman empire", which is a quiet but clear implication that the republic already lost at the point ) and later with the emergency power bill but politic education is something rare I guess...
A tales of the seperatists? That could be nice
Agreed.
I really hate when the Geon Ocean queen in Darth Vader' Comic make her sterile really makes me mad Geon Ocean hads a lot of potential
I belong to minority in the Star Wars Community, The Separatist Believers. The Empire has its fans, so does the Republic, and the Rebels. Also one of the books I got said that the Queen from the Vader comic was Katrina the Great from the Clone Wars series (as she never died.) Honestly I feel Dooku was done an injustice, because he was so prominent when the show was a clear Good vs Evil that they had no choice but to show less of him in later seasons to make up for it when everything became more grey in that era.
I am with you.
@@kingorange7739 on which part?
@@hunterackerman1697 Supporting the Separatists and making more stories centered on them.
What factor did the sepertist planet play in the rebellion, where they a part of it?
many early members were former seps
@@perseus3115Not really? They fought the empire sure but they weren’t part of the Rebel Alliance to Restore the Republic. The names a clue as to why lol.
It would be cool if the separatists got their own series maybe since we're at the point where the 2008 SW:TCW series is a canon thing. Also I kinda liked the Republic Commando / 2003 Clone Wars miniseries era in Star Wars.
the perfect glimpse into the separatist view/mindset would basically be to adapt(because no one reads the comics anymore) the invasion of jabim from the pov of the jabimi people
Indeed. That would be a very good example.
The bad batch was awesome, best disney tv show by far
My biggest problem with the Clone Wars is the fact that a vast majority of the battles we see are between Droids and Clones, both of which are an entirely artificial battle force. We never got to see battles between actual people from both sides. It always felt like mock battles that didn't really matter (which technically it was).
Indeed. It makes me miss things like the Battle of Jabiim in Legends that had not just clones versus droids but also local fighters on both sides given that the world was in Civil War. Loyalists versus Nationalists.
Imperials with redeeming traits like Thrawn :D
He is a cool character. Cool, awesome, impressive. Not morally good. Jus because his methods are more refined doesn't make his morals better.
Quick reminder that he was happy to bombard civilians into submission ("without incurring Imperial casualties"). Or that he might ultimately not be as loyal as most people think but actually just do what he thinks would be best for the Chiss Ascendancy.
If you read Thrawn's backstory in the canon novels, it very clearly establishes that Thrawn joining the Empire came down to wanting to protect his people from external threats outside the Star Wars galaxy. He also believed that the Empire's potential was very high and that proper reforms would allow it to live up to its preached ideals of brining peace and order. But yes, his loyalty is more to his Chiss people. Like yes, he is still ruthless but he is selfless.
I always hated how the CIS in this show keeps referring to themselves as the "Separatist Alliance." Which doesn't make sense because it sounds like they agree with the Republic that they are not a legitimate government body. In the EU, they usually referred to themselves as the Confederacy or CIS.
I also hate how useless the droid army is. Yes, the Battle Droids had comical moments in the prequels, but they were still efficient and even downright intimidating at times. For god's sake, they reduced 200 Jedi to just 20 in less than an hour. And that was a strike team that included Mace Windu, Obi-Wan Kenobi, Anakin Skywalker, Ki-Adi-Mundi, Kit Fisto and Shaak Ti, some the most powerful Jedi of that era.
In the EU, the CIS actually had the upper hand until the last year of the war. They had overwhelming support from most of the Outer Rim and they outnumbered the clone army 1000 to 1. Palpatine made sure the CIS had the initial advantage because he knew it would force the Jedi to send more into battle until they are stretched thin across the Outer Rim. It's even mentioned in Revenge of the Sith that the Outer Rim Sieges have stretched the Republic fleet so thin that they need to send more Jedi to protect vital Republic worlds and morale is so low that Yoda is the one who has to go to Kashyyyk.
You’re right. But I think this is done brilliantly as far as Story telling is done. It shows the height of pro war propaganda and how even as palpetine took more powers that propganada began to create a galactic ideology. Where no matter what purpose u were on a separatist planet u were seen a corrupt, evil, bad, which also leads to the down fall of the Jedi. Even if u were just living on the planet where its leaders decide to leave the republic, you are a separatist. And the bad batch had like five episodes showing how separatist senators who were only looking for a peaceful solution to their planets suffering or well being was leaving the republic and then were fleeing for their life. But that’s how the motivation for the war and deception prevailed to Sideous advantage, too keep everyone fooled there has to be a clear hero side and villain side. So this builds more weight to later Obi-wan explaining to Luke and the audience about a Point of view.
Nun the less that doesn’t mean it wouldn’t be awesome to see a side show on the entire war from the separatist point of view.
Clone war is my favourite era and this is actually a big problem. I just cannot make myself believe that CIS is not stereotypically evil. I can do it even with fucking sith empire from SWTOR, but not with CIS.
Well its the problem that as things stand right now, you have to fill a lot of gaps of the CIS yourself and often almost use head canon to get around it. Because unfortunately, only vague hints in certain stories indicate well who they actually are and what they want. It is a shame that the writers seem so allergic to giving the Separatists any sort of nuance.
Great video. Thanks for recognizing that the separatists leaders were pretty indefensibly bad, even if most of the separatist organization had more nuance. Mostly I'm just so tired of the anti-Jedi campaign that's been going on for the last couple decades, as I feel any evil the Jedi had is truly dwarfed by the evil they were up against.
While I think the clone wars is a perfect show, I can see your point. There are still a lot of gaps in the timeline, and I think a tales of the separatist show would be wonderful. So long as it's actually good.