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Does Size Matter?
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- čas přidán 31. 03. 2024
- A look at the size of three ice axes with a comparison to the heights of their owners to come to the conclusion that taller people use longer ice axes.
Then I compare a known ice axe of Andrew Irvine with the "mystery" ice axe found on Everest in 1933 with Irvine's known ice axe being significantly bigger -- in both length and girth. Reevaluates the evidence around the Wilisch ice axe and it is most likely that of George Mallory, with little possibility it was Irvine.
Comments on the "hole in the heard" and the issue around the photographs taken of George Mallory's face that remain secret.
www.merton.ox.ac.uk/library-a...
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Note on the exact length: I used a "panorama" photo to record the length. Unfortunately, the photo only recorded the beginning and end and was thus not usable. Thus, I used a photo of the axe next to an 18 inch ruler and extrapolated the length. Mark Synnott reported the length as "about" 42 inches in the Third Pole, but he is not know for his accuracy. I have a 36 inch axe, and the axe at the Alpine Club was certainly longer than it. The Alpine Club has a record of the axe being 37.5 inches, but it is not clear if that includes the spike on the end or whether my extrapolation was just off. For the analysis, the known Irvine ice axe is still about 3 inches longer than the 1933 ice axe.
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Earlier video on the ice axe that details more problems with the "triple nick" marks: czcams.com/video/IuvUjozPkbU/video.html
Bloody hell, Michael. You have an unerring ability to notice the blindingly obvious. You just happen to live in a world where nobody else does. Seriously, though, this is a spot-on observation. I spend most of your videos saying “ well, of course, someone will have spotted this in the last hundred years…” and discovering that nobody has.
My only “connection” to Mallory is getting obsessed with the story after reading about the discovery of his body while at college (St John’s) , and then discovering that next door’s college - Magdalene, the one we walked through to get to the pub - was Mallory’s. And the court through which we walked to get our pints at the Pickerel was named….you guessed it: Mallory Court.
Seriously love your videos. Forensically analytical yet accessible to the layman.
Very well- reasoned. Hard to imagine cutting steps for the distances involved. Climbing was definitely not for dilletantes a century ago. The longer ice axes used then served almost as combination axes and trekking poles.
Thank You, Michael.
Great video, Michael. One can also add the obvious fact that GLM's remains were found in a location compatible with a fall from the position of the ice axe, while Irvine's body has not been found in such a fall line.
The photo of the axe's cane-like use in that era is important. As a tall person who has at times needed to use a cane, I can vouch for the fact that standard-length canes are not satisfactory for big people.
Regarding any head wound: after watching Pollard's latest video, I personally would place no stock in anything he says about his "findings".
This was the point I was missing from the video. The correlation of GLM's final resting place and the ice axe position. Nonetheless is another excellent video from @michaeltracy2356. Looking forward to what he may have in store for the centenary.
@@Troublemonkey584 See my question to Mr. Tracy about that obvious correlation . . .
Agreed, certainly the obvious conclusion. Question really is the level of deception seems to be purposeful.
I may be one of few, but I believe George Mallory and Sandy Irvine did summit Everest and tragically fell descending. I also used to follow Everest Mystery channel until I learned from your channel how they desecrated George Mallory's body, it disgusted me as much as Titanic or any other graves being robbed would so thank you for enlightening me.
Crystal clear reasoning. The ice axe has to be Mallory's.
Excellent point on the alleged ice-axe wound on Mallory's forehead. This "photo" businesss gets stinkier by the day.
But thanks to your relentless pursuit of the truth it will come out sooner than later.
Thanks for your fine work.
That the supposed wound in Mallory's face was caused by an ice ax is purely speculation. A man falling down a mountainside can receive injuries in many ways.
Very nicely done. Thank you for your research and insight.
great research, Michael. I always assumed that Mallory's and Irvine's ice axes were identical so there was no way to tell them apart.
It always pays to go to the original sources.
well dine Sir!
Nicely done
Such an entralling investigation! Thanks a lot!
Makes perfect sense. Thank you Michael.
More great research Mr Tracy.
I'm surprised some conspiracy theorist hasn't presented this yet: Irvine murdered Mallory with the ice axe (with the knowledge and consent of the others) for making homosexual advanced towards him. Then Irvine left the axe there on purpose knowing it would be found at a later date, thus diverting suspicion from himself. Irvine made it safely back to camp and was ultimately secreted away, where he spent the rest of his life living in Canada explaining why his body has never been found. Note: Please don't be a nutjob and take this and decide to run with it :)
Make more sense than them climbing the Second Step.
We have only a smattering of all the facts about this expedition. That leaves a lot of blank spaces which we can fill in with made up stories. I am as good at making up stories as anybody. We are trying to assemble a jig saw puzzle in which 90% of the pieces are missing, and someone has tossed in about 20% of pieces from another puzzle.
It is April 1 after all
@@michaeltracy2356 (LOL)
😂😂
For some reason I trust you more than the other commentators. And I know that dishonesties, thefts and treacheries happen on many extreme adventures. But you're one of the few that mention them. (Though Lincoln Hall, Sue Fear, Joe Simpson and Cherie Bremer-Kamp and others did write about them). Thanks for that!
I really appreciate your honest fact filled videos. Thank you
This has got to be one of your most significant videos to date. Worthy of an archeological or historical white paper to be published, don't you think? Would love hear from contradicting opinion if substantiated with new or existing evidence.
Thanks Michael for another fascinating Video. looking forward for the next one.
i was wondering if Wyn-Harris published an account on this finding & whether he tried to look down below the location of the ice Axe to try & trace
a body or other artifact that might belong to Mallory & Irvine?
Your logic is impeccable. Your analysis is Holmesian.
TY 🙏🙏 More fascinating information in the usual clear format!
New book - 'Fallen, George Mallory, the Man, the Myth and the 1924 Everest Tragedy', Author Mick Conefrey, out May 2nd, Published by Allen & Unwin, regarding the oxygen equipment used, & failure rates of equipment, that claims were covered up by the expedition. They come up with their own theory on if Mallory & Irvine did summit, but I won't mention further, as you may review it yourself.
I've always believed the axe was Mallorys and always believed that Irvine slipped and Mallory threw the axe trying to save Irvine but it pulled him over. I believe this because Mallory was a very experienced climber and the location of the fall is fairly easy and Irvine doesn't have much experience climbing. Irvine was much bigger than Mallory. I also think Mallory was alive longer then people are speculating after he fell! Great video Michael
At some point following Mallory’s death on Everest in 1924, an ice-axe was given by
his widow Ruth to Mabel Barker, a friend of the Mallory family and high profile
climber of the day. It was later passed on to Nancy Carpenter and from her to the
Threlkeld family who finally consigned it to Christie’s. At the time of the initial gift, it
resided in the Mallory home along with other possessions of Mallory.
Length 89.5cm. 35.23622 inches
And as it was manufacture after his death, likely it belonged to Ruth. www.theguardian.com/world/2014/sep/27/experts-doubt-mallory-everest-axe
@@michaeltracy2356 It does have a set of double nick marks , similar to the mystery axe though , which can only be seen if you enlarge a photo of it
Bravo QED
Thank you for this video. Very interesting, facts matter.
Now a new question arises: what is the meaning of the markings? 3 marks for (almost) 30 000 feet? Or were they to keep track of oxygen cylinders?
As was said in the video, the Sherpa marked it so it wouldn't get mixed up with all the other axes.
@@kippamip I put 2 marks on my ice axe for the same reason.
Does the Mystery ice axe show any signs of being repaired?
I take it there’s no source material on Mallory’s second ice axe? If it was returned to his family? Its size? Or If it had a maker’s mark or evidence of being repaired?
Just to play devils advocate, I suppose if there was an ice axe wound on Mallory, it could have been made by Irvine’s axe if they had fallen together.
Another excellent video. Thank you, Mr. Tracy.
1:55 Mr.Tracy: I notice that here you don't connect the location of the ice axe to the location of Mallory's body -- which would seem a natural thing to do. Is this because you're keeping to some scruple not to reveal details of the latter (?)
No. I will make the "Mallory's real location" video. I have been saying this for a while and people keep asking for it. Probably the most asked for video at this point.
The location of Mallory's body could easily be located by anyone actually on the mountain looking, provided everything is not covered in snow. The location was not kept "secret" by the 1999. The altitude they provided is incorrect. I will get into why the stated altitude is wrong and why the story that they "are keeping it a secret to protect the body" is Yak Dung. They have a very good (or bad/deceitful) reason for changing the altitude. But I'll let the snow monkeys continue to try to figure out why until I release the video. Hint: First compute the actual altitude Mallory was found -- do it in meters and the "mystery" will unveil itself before your eyes.
@@michaeltracy2356 How do feel about how Mallory's body was treated in 99 when it was found?
@@pens8766 Usually, you have to pay extra for a massage that good.
Interesting thought on the ice axe in the book, Mallory, Irvine and Everest: The Last Step but One: that the ax didn’t belong to either climber but was taken as a spare and used to possibly mark an oxygen cache. An oxygen bottle was found near the location of the ax.
Not a climber so I have no opinion and defer to actual climbers.
Is that actually in the book or just the authors later blog posts and interviews? In any case, it would be more likely a Yeti carried it up than that one of them carried a "spare" ice axe.
@@michaeltracy2356 I heard it in an interview regarding his book. I assumed it was in the book. Haven’t read it. Seemed like an odd explanation but I’m not a mountain climber. Nor is the author. He’s a mathematician. Very analytical and thoughtful. But I’ve learned that no amount of analysis is a substitute for actually doing.
I don't believe it is in his book. He created the theory once he saw a video on CZcams about the problems with the lengths of the ice axes. He sort of realized the axe could not be Irvine's, so he just invented a crazy theory because everyone's theory relies on the axe being Irvine's. As soon as it is Mallory's, there is not "second fall". There is not "he left it on the way up." There is no "it put a hole in his head." The entire "mystery" disappears as soon as the axe is Mallory's.
A great example of ratiocination in action!
Michael, has any lab analysis been done on the wood of the respective ice axes? Was there a preference? Did they all use the same? It would seem unlikely, though not impossible, that Irvine would have purchased two very different ice axes, so if wood analysis indicates a difference from the known axe that would be another question over the attributed axe.
Separately, if the ice axe manufacturer still exists (as a company), they may have records dating back 100 years, so if ice axes were purchased in bulk (in re: Sherpas), you may have something there.
Finally, any thoughts on why Mallory might have abandoned his axe (prior to fall)?
Thanks!
1. I must have missed it (I'm watching under sub-optimal conditions); but is the "unknown" axe the same size as Mallory's?
2. Pollard...sheesh. He not only keeps appearing in this series because of his various claims and blunders, he just released yet another video about being face to face with Mallory. We are coming up on the big anniversary; hopefully he and the other self-dealers in this drama release some of what they have kept hidden.
That's what this video is trying to demonstrate as most likely: the unknown (undocumented) axe is Mallory's . . .
Obviously. My question was is this one the same size as his known axes. It is *not* the same size as Irvine’s other one - which is a “wow” for the hangers-on and fake “experts” who make one bogus claim after another - but I missed it if Michael shared the size of Mallory’s known axes. I’ll just have to watch again.
I feel like having a long ice axe to help you balance when you are super exhausted and one fall can mean death is a good idea. I almost feel like you should carry one long one for balance and two short ones for climbing. Especially considering how light modern ice axes are.
I love these old pics of them just smoking a pipe
I think there is a real size issue with some of today's ice axes for sale: the pick is far too short and does not penetrate rotten snow over the firmer surface below in self-arrest.
thom pollard has been at it again lying
Hey Michael, I’m reading Somervell’s book (After Everest). He said he dropped his ice axe on the way down while helping Norton who had snow blindness. Do we know the whereabouts of this ice axe?
No. The only other ice axe we know of is Wyn-Harris' axe which is in the Chinese museum.
Some people's logic:
Come on now! Golden boy Mallory couldn't have fallen. It has to be Irvine's axe.
Ok then, where is Mallory?
Still Irvine's axe.
We found Mallory's body on the slopes below the location of the axe.
Still Irvine's axe.
I have one that is 35 inches and being six foot one inch tall need to bend over to cut steps on level ground , a few more inches would solve that problem , so 39-41 inches would be good for my height. Cutting steps uphill the length does not matter.
What was the length of rope on Mallorys body? Irvine fell and couldn't be recovered due to the circumstances or exhaustion of both and Mallory cut the rope, he continued on until he fell from the ice axe position, just an idea thats bothered me for a while.
I will have a video on the rope shortly. It was cut up by the 1999 "search" team and what its original length was remains a mystery. The remaining pieces appear to be a small fraction of what was originally there.
Also, there were two different ropes tied around Mallory. Which one was tied where also remains a mystery of the 1999 "search."
I understand that many people believe the rope could provide more clues as to what happened in 1924. However, as the 1999 team wishes to keep all the information about the rope a secret, it is impossible to say. The rope is currently at the RGS, but it was cut into multiple pieces in 1999 and which piece goes where and whether any pieces are missing prevent any type of analysis. The current length of the remaining pieces is much shorter than the early statements about what was found tied to the body. Whether pieces of rope went "missing" or whether the original reports were incorrect can only be cleared up if the photos from 1999 are released -- and they never will be.
Hey Michael, do you happen to know if anyone is doing a boots on the ground search this year?
I do not. Looking at the roster on the North, nothing jumps out at me. But likely a search. group would be "stealth" and not report it to Himalayan DB, press, etc until after they were done.
This is the big question though. Chinese basecamp will be full in about 2 weeks, and the Central Yeti Agency (CYA) has some operatives that might be able to assist.
@@michaeltracy2356 Ahhhhh! The snow monkeys are on it, excellent.
@@michaeltracy2356 ah, I see. The snow monkeys have taken up fishing. Or should I say, ice fishing.
Anticipating your treatment of the location of the remains of GLM, it seems possible that they are now "gone." The most recent attempt to find them was unsuccessful even tho Pollard in 1999 had left a leg sticking up, which might have served as a marker if the rest of the remains were covered in snow. However, it seems Pollard may have "loosed" the remains from the mountain, and left them (at least partially) uncovered. Even without intervention from the Chinese or other nefarious agents, natural forces, given a helping hand by Pollard, may have "thrown" GLM off the mountain where he had once been securely buried.
The problem with the "he is gone" theory is that the "latest search" does not appear to know where Mallory is. Although Thom was at the crime scene in 1999, this does not mean he knows exactly where it is. Andy Politz was the one who found it on May 16, and there was a lot of snow. Without. the ability to identify key rocks, there is no reason to believe they were "searching" in the correct area.
In any case, the "latest search" was done with a drone. They did not climb down into the basin and actually look. It would be easy enough to say, "Here is a photo of the location Mallory was found in 1999 and you can all see there is nothing there." No need to protect a body that is no longer there.
@@michaeltracy2356 I must agree. My attempts at triangulation and interpretation of the 1999 video put Mallory's remains even farther west than you have estimated and a bit lower, as they were not in the snow. So it does seem possible that the recent search was in the wrong place.
Mallory summitted. Find the camera
Im rather late to Mr Tracey series. Sorry for being tedious and redundant, which route does Mr Tracey think they took. Thank you
Ridge traverse to Couloir, then achieving third step via a route out of the east side or cross the couloir and exit small gully. Best starter video for you would be Odell's view of Mallory and Irvine at 12:50, as well as Mallory and Irvine route to summit videos, both from about 3-4 years ago.
czcams.com/users/shortsgIKdCASgDo8
Could there have been one or more climbers in the area of the ice axe given that various routes had been probed in the 1922-24 timescale?
The 1922 climbers were well below that area and the other climb in 1924 was well known and Somervell didn't use a Willisch ice axe. No on in 1922 reported losing their ice axe on the upper mountain.
Maybe ice axes are like (bar/club) microphone stands, they get swapped around (but you always end up with a worse stand) or they disappear :-)
Why are the Mallory photos secret
Back in 1922-24, I'd have sent someone up to scout out the terrain above the 1st and 2nd step, surprised if someone hadn't gone up for a look around for possible routes, maybe thats when an ice axe was left there. Would make sense not to disclose information about Everest to the public just in case the information helps a future rival attempt
They did have binoculars, telescopes, and cameras back then -- all of which they used to look at various routes.
@@michaeltracy2356 yes but boots on the ground better than estimations from a lower altitude via a telescope. Many false assumptions of difficulty were made prior to the successful 1865 Matterhorn climb as it was noted that some sections were easier than assumed (as viewed from below). Both Matterhorn and Everest had lots of eyes on them it but it wasn't until each section was attempted that the difficulty was fully measured. Great videos, watched them all, thanks
@@user-or4hs7xq9u except you are speculating completely and not reading the detailed and various accounts, diaries, and reports, that show that didn't happen. Do your research first. Otherwise, you'll end up getting smoked on this channel.
What is this fixation for some people with the second step? This was 1924, they were trying to be the first climbers to summit Mount Everest, why when they clearly had knowledge of high altitude climbing would they want to waste time with a vertical cliff face knowing time was of the essence when they had identified at least two routes that they clearly that were possible and certainly a lot quicker. The second step would have made absolutely no sense in 1924.
It makes perfect sense thst yhe sherpa marked the axe so it wouldn't get muddled up with the rest at the various camps.
Sorry but i'm sure Irvine and Mallory were the same height, maybe 1-1.5 inch difference, the difference in the photo is because Andrew is standing higher on the rocks so the surface is uneven.
So, you knew them both? "I'm sure"... How are you sure? Mallory is mentioned as either 5'11 or 6 feet. Irvine's exact hight is not know, but Summer's says he was the second tallest on the expedition -- Norton being 6'4. So, probably more than a 1.5 inch difference.
The only way I could see Irvine using a smaller Axe than usual could be lighter weight? At hose heights every gram matters.