Inbreeding Racing Pigeons..Big Waste of Time!
Vložit
- čas přidán 15. 12. 2023
- This video will show the greatest game changing breeding pigeons in the history of the sport are all crosses. You should never inbreed racing pigeons. If you do inbreed you must follow this simple principle. To race and and breed champion pigeons follow this advice. #pigeonvideos #racingpigeons #pigeons
- Sport
Frank we are lucky to have you given us all this great info on race pigeon's, keep your video's coming when you have the time👍, 🇮🇪 DUBLIN 🇮🇪
Thank you!
Thanks for this info Frank.I also had this thoughts many years ago,regarding breeding racing pigeons.My experience on line breds are not well at all.Regards and merry christmas to you and our family.
Thanks for sharing. Of course there are good inbred birds but the pigeons we talk about for 40 years are always crosses. There is really no need to inbreed or line breed to have success.
Thanks for the info Frank. Have a safe and merry Holidays 🎉 😊
Happy holidays!
Another Dynasty of Superstar Pigeons Mr. McLaughlin’s FREAK FAMILY You Guys should definitely get Your hands on some of those.
You are too nice.
Excellent info Frank …. MAHALO for sharing 😊
You bet!
Thanks for sharing you were right on Target 👍
Happy you enjoyed!
Frank thanks for the share. What do you think of Jan aarden line that only inbreed ? Is that only because there were no good pigeon at that time?
I am not too familiar with the Jan Aarden line. There have been some inbred close bred families that went on to be good but no super breeders that changed the sport were inbred pigeons.
Hello Frank
Can keep a line for further cross breeding. I mean father daughter breeding and then further cross their offsprings with other lines?
This is a way of thinking that many have been told from the old timers. Not necessary to keep two lines and cross them.. Retire the super performers and breed from them and keep going generation after generation. Bring in something new each year an see if it works. You will have a line that goes back to a great bird but not closely related.
Hi Frank! I just wanna ask what vaccine do you use for PMV and Salmonella and how months old should you give them? Thanks
Any PMV and Salmonella vaccine should work. Easiest to get is the Dr. K vaccines for both. I vaccinate at weaning for PMV and pox. I vaccinate again as a booster maybe a month later and vaccinate all birds with PMV and Salmonella before breeding and the old bird season. I do use combo vaccines but they are not so easy to get.
Thanks Frank!❤
im new to pigeons. ive never raced or cared for birds. but im hoping to get a pair soon. im confused how the race works. yards per minute . wouldn't the loft closest to the liberation site have a advantage ????????
You must fly a certain distance to be able to fly in the race. Some races may favor the longer flyers and some may favor the shorter flyers. The pigeons make great speeds but sometimes the winds change and it can affect location. A headwind at the end will favor short fanciers and a tail wind at the end will favor longer fanciers.
Thanks Frank. Do a video about what is the maximum age we can race a pigeon. Can we race birds older than 5 years of age?
I have had big winners through Five Years old and top National Ace Pigeons are five year old. I have seen birds winning older. I will do a video on how to extend a pigeons racing career.
What do you think about pigeons of the famous Janssen from Arendonk
Janssen pigeons made a big impact in many lofts. Excellent birds and the brothers were very smart with promoting and causing demand for the pigeons. People paid a lot and then mated the Janssen to their best pigeon and the results came.
Great video Frank! I mixed everything up this year. Hope it pays off.
I am sure it will. The pigeons know better than us sometimes. I put 13 pair in a big section yesterday and let them pick their mates. They are all children of my best pigeons. I expect great results.
@@FrankMcLaughlinPigeons
I will do the same with my birds next year. I am expecting eggs in the next couple days
@@FrankMcLaughlinPigeons I wanted to do the open breeding but I had a few previously mated pairs in the same loft so I decided to pair them up myself.
Great video Frank
I appreciate you watching. I hope to help fanciers realize that what is preached over and over is not always correct.
But how do u preserves your winning line bird? if u don't linebreed or inbreed?
Many years ago I thought the Line Breeding or Inbreeding was needed. Now I realize the pigeons keep getting better over time and if I select a superstar racer or breeder to add to the colony I am moving forward. Always want to look forward and improve and not look back.
Thanks for answering sir ☺️
THANK YOU! ive handled a lot of pigeons as a newbie- not as many as you experts- but the best pigeons i have ever touched were... at the very least not VERY inbred. the incredibly inbred birds i have seen all seem to be kept as "money breeders" and never raced... (gosh i wonder why)
The superstars inbreed for sale and cross for themselves. Many want inbred pigeons and I also will inbreed for sale because that is what people want. I can easily select a better crossed pigeons but fanciers are caught up on the inbred bird which always has more demand. I will keep the cross for myself.
Salut sir, for shering great information
Happy you liked it.
I totally agree with you.
Thank you. The sport gets caught up in inbred birds but when you look at the facts one will see the greatest breeding birds are crosses.
My motto ' best for best and forget the rest' referring to great racer or great breeder .
If I want to replace a great stock bird then I will put a great racing sibling back to the parent or pair two great racing siblings together but these will be solely for stock purposes.
They will then be crossed with other great performing/ breeders and the progeny will be tested..ditto ditto ditto
You are on the right track. Big mistake is to inbreed unproven pigeons. That is a waste of time. I have had straight bred or somewhat inbred pigeons be very good breeders but the best ever were always crosses.
Hi frank another good point of view my family of birds came from one cock and 2 hens same family of birds and for the past 15 years have produced multiple first prize winners as I race mainly hens eg 1 hen 10 first prize its sister 9 first prize another sister 7 firsts grand children 7 firsts gg 8 firsts and so on right up to this year a young hen with 3 firsts to her name my point is I’ve looked for a good cross for the past 5 years but no good as yet what ever I bring in can not live with the family of birds I have got
Some will find that the pigeons they already own are better than the birds they bring in. You have some great pigeons. Many have found some super birds that carry the loft for years. The game changing pigeons of the sport are crosses. Where do you race?
@@FrankMcLaughlinPigeons race in the uk north Wales 🏴
Great area!
Subscriber from Canada
Thank you, hope you enjoy
Thanks Frank.
Very welcome
Hi Frank, love your content. Explain the Janssen Brothers?
Also who in their right mind ,would inbreed or linebreed from mediocre/average pigeons? When they talk about inbreeding and line breeding its from top quality pigeons. Don't you agree?
Kind regards
My thoughts exactly. I would suggest the majority of successful lofts of today are crosses, and without doubt packing as many winners as possible into the immediate pedigree is a very effective strategy as Frank rightly says. Then as you say there's the Janssen Bros. Inbred generation after generation, with the greats they produce through their inbreeding being the distant ancestors of many of todays champions. Jos van Limpt (de klak ) also stuck with the Janssen pigeons and race ultra successful right up until his death in 2004, even more bizarre he beat them all flying natural, when if you listen to some winning natural is impossible.
Many inbreed because they have two unproven children of a champion. This is a mistake. The Janssen Brothers pigeons were used as crosses for many families with success. Strange thing is no one really knew what the Janssen Brothers did with breeding. You would get a ring card with the parents band numbers on the card. No pedigrees from the Brothers. The Janssen Brothers pigeons were blended in many families there was not one or two pigeons that changed the sport. When the Janssen pigeons took off everyone bought and bred the Janssen pigeon to their best pigeon. Then the results came. This happens with many pigeons. If you buy and expensive pigeon you mate it to your best. The expensive pigeon gets too much credit.
If you add super handling to good pigeons it helps. Inbred pigeons for the most part are not going to perform very well. Many of the old timers were secretive on how they bred and also wanted to sell pigeons. Many inbreed for sale and cross for themselves.
Such a fascinating Subject, love your last line." The expensive pigeon gets to much credit" That ring's true so many times.
According to the Dutch writer, Jan Aerts, in his book " Advanced Techniques" (1969), he quotes Ewald Baumer in the German magazine "Die Briefetaube" who stated the Janssens had not added an outside pigeon to their loft in 25 years. But Aerts then goes on to mention a 1959 report in a Belgian periodical that said they "ocassionally add some of the best to their lofts". This seems to suggest, Aerts said, that they mostly relied on birds they bred themselves, but would occasionally bring in a pigeon that they felt would benefit them.
In 47 yrs of pigeon sport in region of more than 700 lofts i can only remember 8 pigeons who i would name supper breeders and 4 pairs thats how rate they are
Hey Celestine, Very few are game changing pigeons. Hope you are doing super! Your old Friend, Frank
The most important thing for any pigeon fancier in my view and even more for OLR specialist is s clear breeding strategy .In order to get that strategy the fancier needs to have clear interest performance pigeons within a distance category within a specific type that can cope with predefined conditions and then develop.clear definitions of what sort of breeding methodology is he going to adopt that suits the pigeons that his acquired or have .Inbreeding what method of inbreeding brings the most likely success we can only no that if we study others pigeons who are better than ours .Line Breeding what method of line breeding brings most success Staggard line breeding or even crossing what type crosses well.with what type and then we have a methodology even for crossing supper pairs children with supper.pairs children hear the breeder needs to clearly define what is a supper breeding pairs etc .Then the ultimate thing is keeping records of performances in what conditions at what distance and what speeds etc. Then ultimately.enjoy the idea enjoy the goal and the process as the end goal might be illusive as u need to have a bit of lack somehow some have that more than others in pigeon sport.
Hello Celestine, You are one of the great minds in the sport. I knew this over 20 years ago after the first time we spoke. I still use some of the things I learned from you.
Thus is a great topic 😁
Glad you enjoyed.
My opinion is inbred or line or cross bred will throw race winners and breeders of winners . It is said that the europeans have more success from cross bred pigeons . Many of those lofts brought in inbred or line bred pigeons of champions lines to use as that cross .
Any pigeons can breed good pigeons and but what I am saying is the greatest breeders the sport has ever known were crosses. There are no half brother half sister, father daughter bred pigeons that went on to change the sport for many years
If you can add a bird bred from two unrelated champions your odds of success goes up..
@@FrankMcLaughlinPigeons Frank you do not have to tell me about crosses . One of the finest teams of race pigeons I ever saw were actually all crosses they were bred out of strays .Parents were selected out of a market that had livestock and racing pigeons sold every Sunday .
@@FrankMcLaughlinPigeons I have had pigeons for 52 years and the sport as is now is not recognisable to how the sport was 30/40 years ago . Now the sport is driven by money and marketing the next bs new strain name the next you must have product from the feed companies .It was not like that in years gone past . I have spent many happy days visiting champion fanciers lofts who are no longer with us that no one will have ever heard of but they were top pigeon men with good honest pigeons that won . Now you have kbdb so called ace pigeons that never flew a race further than 90km sport has become a joke .
The problem is the sport has become a group of collectors. For many it is more important to own a bird bred from a famous name than own a super pigeon from an unknown name.
@@FrankMcLaughlinPigeonssamplez of very clozed inbreed sir are the pigeonz of Mr. J.T
MUDAY - BE18-063 who winz the 1zt. Nat'l. Argenton II (2019) both parentz of him are full broz./siz.
The other one is LUNA-MAY - NL15-266 of J&R-S(newowner) where she win the 5th Int'l. Barcelona (2017) 789milez 17000+ P... both parentz are same of MuDaY...their grandparentz
😮
We should in the new year have a chat about breeding and maybe I will.be able to change your mind .
Hope we get to spend sometime in the future.
Amore of Koopman in my view was ultimate pigeon on paper if u map.her pedigree 12 to 16 generations back u will clearly see why she herself was such a great breeder .It was in my view Gerard Koopman best.puece of Art on paper and also the ultimate pigeon on paper .
Hello who said that inbreed is waste. No inbreed is not waste. It's just for to get 100%bloodline from them.. As they parents have......
Inbreeding can have its place. What I am saying is the greatest breeding pigeons in the history of the sport are crosses.
I agree inbreeding destroys the genetics. I bougjht a inbred Jannsen 969 and bred it to a my houben/Gaby cross and entered 3 progeny in the Apple cup. All 3 did not make it final race.
You just contradicted yourself with that statement.. You said inbreeding destroys the genetics yet you sent 3 crossed out birds to the Apple Cup which didn't make it to the final race.. Truth is, inbreeding "solidifies" the genetics, it doesn't destroy it..
You must test them to see what is good. The great birds jump up fast and show themselves.
great advise frank i guess it’s like dogs u can get bad genetic traits that come from close breeding
It's real pity of what sport become its about Branding i this marketing methodology the good ones are getting lost really diff rent area and time.The good thing is some exceptional birds are coming into global view from unknown countries. A great observation in South Africa is that best Samdpr still dom8nate the sport hear and fascinating is that after 20 years of Samdpr the genectic standard in South Africa surpasses many countries. That's the legacy if Zandy Meyer
Sad we lost the Million Dollar. That race changed the sport world wide.
Yes however we have afrik pro race i think it wil overtime surpass Samdpr I th8nk its run by forward thinking young energetic people
AfrikaPro should be the next great one loft race!@@CelestinedonoughCelestine
I think reality is more in the middle. As a rule, I think there is a general fear among many European animal breeders of inbreeding. In some countries, the practice is now even considered illegal in some animals. This has created a larger pool of outcrossed animals than probably exists here in the States. In that regard, the statistical odds certainly lean in favor of the outcrossed animals just by sheer numbers. Another factor in this is the genetic effect of the close mating. Generally speaking, the effect of inbreeding and linebreeding is to concentrate the traits that exist in the animal being bred around. No matter how outstanding an animal may be, the perfect animal does not exist. All of them possess faults to some degree, even if it exists only in their genotype. Breeding close amplifies those genetic faults just the same as it amplifies the desirable characteristics. In the early development of a closely bred family, those faults tend to reveal themselves frequently until they are eliminated through selection and culling. It may sound strange to those who are inexperienced in these breeding methods, but if a group of animals are closely bred and don't begin revealing common genetic undesirabilities (ie. Faults), it's generally an indication that the animals are not being closely enough bred to have much profound effect. In otherwords, in the first few generations, it is normal to see a high frequency of undesirable specimens produced from close matings. Culling and selection is used to eliminate those and to fix the characteristics that are desired. Right away, this again lowers "the pool" that one can base their assumptions on. By stark contrast, when animals are outcrossed, the latent faults are supressed by basic dominance. In rare cases, when enormous gains are created through over dominance or co dominance (we geneticists are not in agreement on which), it is considered a case of "hybrid vigor" or heterosis. Though a large amount of outstanding animals are produced by outcrossing, the downside is that is genetically impossible to fix traits into a group of animals by continually crossing them. In the meantime, the genetics of the most superior animals that are produced become diluted inside of 3 of 4 generations. This leaves the breeder in a position where they either must begin linebreeding/inbreeding or they must be continually on the hunt for some new genetic source to keep the wheels on their outcrossing program. That is more or less the situation in Europe and what drives the high number of outcrossed champions. Obviously, this can lead to a lot of fast gratification and it can last as long as a breeder has access to outside stock. Racing Pigeon history is replete with stories about certain leading breeders always bringing in birds from some secondary source and being successful for as long as the source was available. However, these stories often end with the breeder falling from stature when the second breeder died or retired. In otherwords, they hit a genetic dead end and could no longer find the genetics to continue the same process at the same level. However, by stark contrast, we have the case of David Clausing who is certainly one of the most successful fanciers this country has ever produced. Clausing's use of linebreeding would impress even the purest devotee of linebreeding. Clausing made extreme use of his foundation cock "Ziko" which was said to be the best breeder out of a large body of birds from Houben. He basically bred Ziko to a succession of his best daughters and in turn, tended to breed the next generation through half sibling matings. Its worth mentioning that Ziko was linebred on the Houben's damous cock "Artist". Today, the line is so closely bred that most of the Clausing pigeons show 6 to 8 crosses to Ziko in their pedigrees. He was very highly ridiculed over his methods when he began the process, but his results definitely speak for themself and he is certainly "up there" with any name in Europe. I think that one of the problems is that people see the linebreeding work of a breeder like Clausing and immediately begin linebreeding mostly for the sole sake of linebreeding. That is especially true of a lot of people selling pigeons from XYZ famous bird, in that very little thought seems to be put in beyond the pedigree itself. That sort of thing is of course, doomed to failure.
I feel inbreeding has its place but must only be done when both sire and dam are superstars. No inbreeding for the sake of inbreeding. No matter what the best producers of all time are crosses.
@FrankMcLaughlinPigeons A person has to be very careful and very selective when they do it. Not every animal is well suited and progeny testing has to be conducted before a person commits to implementing a linebred animal into their breeding program. I think far too many probably jump into it without doing enough testing, careful study, etc. Most people linebreed and inbreed just for the sake of saying they're doing it and don't seem to have real goals in mind other than being able to say, "Hey man, this squeaker has four crosses to Wolverine". You see a lot of these squeakers on auctions and often, they are scraggly looking little runts that were produced strictly for the purpose of going to auction. They are probably not going to have much merit if they were linebred just for the sake of saying they are linebred or inbred. In that regard, people really need to establish a goal other than breeding close just to fill a pedigree with same well known pigeon over and over. The goal should be to fix traits opposed to merely loading the pedigree. A lot of people seem to miss this whether we are talking about pigeons, chickens, dogs, cows, bunnies or horses. For that reason, a bulk of inbred or linebred animals are always going to be at a disadvantage from day one. Historically, a lot of exceptional lines of animals have been produced through close breeding, but these lines were definitely the result of a lot of study, planning and testing instead of just loading a pedigree.
All very good points
Interesting in my observation we should find a definition of what a supper pair is and in reality they rare example if we look we will find they tend to appear onece every ten years or more Harry parents and kleine Dirk dynasty is great example of when two supper pair children meet i the breeding loft champions are bred although neither the gen or the cock was raced. So the ultimate question is what does these supper prepotent breeders have that so rare in pigeons and what is the definition of supper prepotent pair thats the question and the answer
Great points and really interesting to look at the try to figure out. You are a super pigeon mind and should write a book!
I think indeeeding has its benefits or eles u still wouldnt have van reets or the sablons ...
I do keep the Van Reets straight because everyone wants them straight. My best birds and some of my best breeders are Van Reet crosses. Over time they will eventually be crossed out. My Sablon birds have been with me for 15 years so I can still produce straight breds but many of my best both breeding and racing are Sablon crosses
@@FrankMcLaughlinPigeons .... But you wouldn't have those Van Reet or Sablon crosses available if you didn't line breed those two original families.. You just contradicted yourself with the claim of line breeding being a big "Waste of Time" in the breeding loft.. It isn't a waste of time if you want to keep a family bloodline pure.. You claim it's a waste of time, but you seem to be doing it yourself.. That makes no sense at all. JMHO
I certainly can see your point. The video was to show the greatest breeding pigeons in the history of the sport are crosses. I do keep the Van Reets straight and a few Sablon pigeons straight because that is what my customers want. I concentrate and breed from the crosses for myself. There are plenty of great breeding inbred or line bred pigeons but they real game changing pigeons are crosses. When I buy a pigeon I want if it all possible to be a cross with both parents being unrelated superstars. My odds are much better of getting a top breeder when the parents of the pigeon are great and unrelated. @@ausfuhrpramienjagar
Great video Frank - it is just common sense and its amazing how much trouble most pigeon breeders have understanding it. Read any champion European pedigree and they're almost all crosses. HYBRID VIGOUR!
That being said, "Silver Shadow" was an extremely inbred bird, and he's probably the only inbred champion I can think of.
I am not familiar with Silver Shadow but of course there are some great inbred birds but no "game changers". Silver Shadow was probably very good for a loft or group but not something the entire pigeon world would talk about.
Adam Archer, long time don’t see Bro, I hope all is well
Thousands would disagree
Hi John, I understand there a many good breeders that are inbred but no game changing pigeons are inbred. That is what the video is about.
@@FrankMcLaughlinPigeons I understood what you were trying to say , but I know of many good inbred racers .
If you were to keep crossing continuously, sooner or later the Winners or breeders of winners would disappear
Over the years I use some of the top performers for breeding and you can keep them going.
@@FrankMcLaughlinPigeons but life doesn’t happen like that as we know … you can get years where maybe a top pigeon dies ( happened to us she died at 4 heart attack) hawks etc etc
Disease out break like Covid and foot and mouth etc where you don’t have the chance to test pigeons. Pigeons going barren or infertile.
All of a sudden your best pigeons are gone.
Where do you go then ?
Where are the good genes coming from ?
Now if you had some inbred children all is not lost
Disasters can happen. If someone needed to start over buy late breds off the race team of a top local fancier that is not a professional and does not have much time. Those pigeons will be good and you will not miss a beat on success.
Kenny would disagree!
I am sure we would have some that disagree but the odds of an inbred pigeon changing the sport is so very rare.
@@FrankMcLaughlinPigeons Yup Kenny is a great guy and inbreeding is an important part of forming a breed, and a specific type. But over and over we witness the negative effects of excessive inbreeding. Take for instance Holstein cattle, breeding consultants in the day recommended to stick with one family of super production animals, and it worked for years, but then it went wrong. Today, consultants recommend tapping into other high production lines to bring back the health and vigour and fertility. Bull stations are now importing Holsteins from all over the world to reinvigorate old families.
Breeding for racing performance is a bit different.
@@FrankMcLaughlinPigeons I would imagine so. My reflexions on breeding racing pigeons is that you need to carry a number of lines or have partnerships with other racing pigeon breeders to keep the distance between lines to get the jump that an outcross gives you.
That is the way nearly all the top Europeans do it.
Frank i am a handler in Midwest convention 2024 . If you enter birds please consider me barney johnston
Email me and we can see.
I don't agree Frank - How many of the birds (Super star) brother and sister is the winners - 99 % birds is cross this why the % is more high on the winning then line breed birds (Same like most winners is BB or BC but 99 % of birds in races is the color over Silver / RC or some other - Line breed for me is the best way !!
.. I agree Ado. You have to line breed a wanted family bloodline or you will loose it within 2 or 3 generations. You always want to have the ability to keep that same pure blood in the veins of your pigeons, if it is a good one. And yes, as you say, the percentage is higher because there is more outcrossing in the breeding world than there is line breeding to a pure family line. So naturally it's gonna be higher.. JMHO
Wim Muller said,that he has the same line,of pigeons,by using inbreeding.
The best racers, are the crosses ,its obvious but to keep the line ,you must inbreed,otherwhise în 2-3 generations ,you wil lose it .
Thats my opinion
I understand that most pigeons racing and breeding are crossed pigeons. The best breeders of all time are crosses. Ornat is a total crossed pigeon. What I have seen is your chances are increased to breed super breeders, if for example you bred Ornat to an unrelated super performance hen. I would much rather have both champion parents unrelated and breed from that pigeon. The odds are an inbred pigeon being a super breeder is not high. I do not worry about the line anymore and realize the pigeons keep getting better with each generation if you are breeding from the top performers. This is what makes this game fun for us. We keep trying and experimenting.
Good points but what I feel is the pigeons keep improving with selection and you can go many generations focusing on performance. I do not look backwards I look forward. Pigeons of today are so much better than the pigeons of 50 years ago.
@@FrankMcLaughlinPigeonsYou have made this statement in the past . pigeons of today being better than pigeons of 30/40/50 years ago . I strongly disagree with that statement .
Absolutely garbage mate !!!!!!!
Inbreeding has some merit but what I am saying there has never been a game changing superstar breeder in the history of the sport that is inbred.
Thanks for sharing you were right on Target 👍
Thank you for watching. I appreciate all your support.