An American .30-06 MG-42, and GPMGs after WWII
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- čas přidán 30. 10. 2019
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The perk for $100 Patrons is choosing a gun they would like me to find and film, and one such Patron (Mark) expressed a curiosity about US testing and lack of adoption of an MG-42 in .30-06 caliber. So, today we will discuss that (the trials gun was designated the T24) as well as why it took so long for the FN MAG to be developed and adopted.
For the full T24 trials report and photos, go here:
www.forgottenweapons.com/ligh...
Resources for this video included:
"MG34-MG42: German Universal Machine Guns" (amzn.to/2VtY314)
"German Universal Machine Guns, Vol II: MG08-MG3" (amzn.to/2M2f67t)
"Rock in a Hard Place: The Browning Automatic Rifle" (amzn.to/315Dbi2)
"The Browning Machine Gun, Vol I" (amzn.to/2M4KgeA)
"Ars Mechanica" (amzn.to/324JT9h)
"The Machine Gun, Vol I" (www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USN/...)
Contact:
Forgotten Weapons
6281 N. Oracle #36270
Tucson, AZ 85704
An m2 and mg42 walk into a bar:
"Hey brother"
"Hallo"
"Theyre never going to let us retire are they?"
"Nein."
Classic. The poor old Browning .50 is 100 years old now. And still hard at work.
Rollin L Indeed it is not poor old browning, that just shows you really can’t change such a reliable weapon and doing so would be fixing a problem that didn’t need fixing.
The Dshk stares at them both in a dark corner, and sighs
@@Predator20357 They did fix some of the weapons downsides in 2010 with the M2A1.
Rotsteinblock really? It took them that long to get some new changes? Wack
other mg's: can you stop acting superior?
mg42: but i am superior
"But I am the Chosen One."
-- Harry Potter
Der Übermunition
@@Red-jl7jj The rate of fire can be altered by using a heavier bolt, different spring set up, and an altered booster cone. That would have solved the consumption issue. The M60 has a barrel change is more awkward. The best design element of the M60 is the stenlite lining in the barrel, that allows it to fire red hot. In my opinion, combine the stenlite lining in the '42 barrels, and change the necessary components on the '42 to slow the rate of fire, and you get a gpmg that is user friendly, relatively simple to make, reliable, and potentially very effective.
Deutschland, Deutschland Uber Alles!
@@Red-jl7jj if you know anything about a tru m60 you would think differently. What most people call an m60 these days is actually a Belgian mg that pretty much looks exactly the same.
The MG3 (basically an MG-42 in 7.62 NATO) is still in use, so that says something.
Virtually nobody uses MG42 derivatives that didn't have them in 1945. That says a lot more.
@@lordsummerisle87 Yeah, but you could say something similar about the Vz.58.
@@lordsummerisle87 Counterpoint: Burma and Iran
@@ongjunhong Ah yes those military heavyweights...
@@judsongaiden9878 What, that it used innovative manufacturing techniques and crystallised a range of contemporary thinking into a concept that's almost universally used to this day but was executed in a way that relied on a physical concept that has been proven incorrect and detrimental to the effectiveness of the squad? Actually no I couldn't say any of those things about the CZ58.
Oh how I wish Ian was a college professor. I would love to take a class taught by him.
@Alex I'm in political sciences and next semester I'm going to have a "war studies" subject. From what I've heard we're going to be learning all about panzers, guns and war tactics ;)
Ian should have a Master Class.
Texas, it might fly in Texas but anywhere else? If this was introduced to the approved material in schools, if the faculty's heads don't pop like a frag grenade, then God help you if you take that class as a white man.
Roll call goes like this.
Dillanger John
Coresh David
McVey Tim
Kazinzky Ted
These are all nicknames mind you, they don't really care what your name is. Why learn the names of massaganist ,patriarchal, homophobic, manchild Nazis.
Dear God, if somebody forgot a
shotgun shell in their pocket,
He's going to Guantanamo Bay.
You are.
@@williamkeith8944 I already do, and I go to Harvard so I think I have that covered atm
I served 20 years ago in the german army as an support soldier. We had an MG 3 on which you could see the rather crued "overstamped" or x-out "MG 42". Not talking about the proofmarc .
@@osmacar5331 . Why not reusing good stuff? Now it is getting replaced anyway.
Right... like next year maybe
Dont worry I seen the air force deploy with full auto 1960s era m16 a...... 3 haha armys are cheap it was a m16a1 with hand jamed burst and a hand written 3 over the 1 ... That was a joke poor airmen. His sole existence was to keep the internet on lmao
Jörg Schimmer that's interesting
@@jonathanschrader7881 it was inpoper maintence and traning causing the malfunctions
The story about the royalties is hilarious.
Absolutely the most amusing case of patent trolling I've ever heard of!
Any links? Sounds interesting
The guy knew exactly what button to push and at a time when it wasn't obvious like it is now for us ;)
I think Springfield Armory might have an MG42 in .30-06 in their advanced collection. Really get in contact with them.
But I do know for a fact that the armory also has a belt fed BAR that was made post WWII.
EdM240B yes I would love Ian to do this
Jason Kluver I interned there and saw the advanced collection. It’s insane. They have THE 1911 that won the 1910 trials (firing 6,000 rounds without malfunction), a Bommartio M1916, the John Garand Patent Model, Serial Number 1 for the M1917 Enfield rifle and Browning machine gun, that M1E5 rifle Ian mentioned in a Q&A, and more.
I’d love for him to do a series on the M1 development, because Springfield Armory has an example of every single one. Even a concept-made bullpup Garand rifle.
A belt fed BAR? Interesting..
@@vicdiaz5180 Fn Mag, it is functionally the same system.
The Canuck Redcoat
Like I said interesting and very intriguing!
I love learning history of firearms. Thanks 👍
"This dog barks worse than it bites" - apparently everyone wanted this dog.
The Germans were very wise when it came to the development of firearms, look at some of their designs!
@menckencynic Wow butt hurt much? haha
@menckencynic settle down okay?
@menckencynic You really are insane if you think people would resort to that. You take youtube too seriously dude. Take a break.
@menckencynic Please explain to me how you come to the conclusion of me being someone else from the sentence of "Settle down okay?". Does it really seem that impossible to you that different people find you fairly triggered for no good reason.
I was in the U.S.Army back in 1981-1982. My MOS was 45KILO, tank turret repair, but I also was allowed to work in small arms repair. I repaired a few U.S. M60s and they were worn out crap back then. They were Jam-O-Matics. In 1982, I was re stationed in Germany and was able on several occasions to fire German MG3, and on one occasion disassemble one. Compared to the M60, the MG3 was flawless in operation, and very easy to disassemble for repair. IMO, the U.S.Army should had adopted the 7.62 NATO version of the MG3, and dumped the M60.
Imagine if this was used during the Korean War.
We'd already have a *BRRRRRT* before the A-10 was cool.
Look at the He-219. 2x30mm mk 108 guns, 2x30mm mk 103 guns and 2x20mm mg151 guns.
Strafe a convoy with that.
Imagine using this to hose down the jungle in Vietnam
P-47 wants to know your location
Spooky Gunship wants to know your location
Truman's Buzz Saw.
The mg42 when converted to 308 or 7.62 Nato is amazing. Way easier to control, just as fast, fewer parts need to be convert, and makes it easier to find ammo for
Bucky Barns agreed
I've shot the MG3 quite often during service, and it's more for the bigger, stronger guys. It's a bit on the heavy side and somewhat hard to control, but even a lightweight guy as I was can still spray the living shit out of any narrow area at distance.
On a tripod or otherwise mounted, it's one hell of a weapon that anyone trained can use highly effectively.
@@ropeburn6684 the standart MG3 weighted about the same or a tad less than the M60.
The rate of fire was too high? HOW DARE YOU!?
Yeah, high rate of fire is all well and good.... Until you have to lug the ammo
Imagine if the M2HB had a high rof mode of 1000 rpm
@@stephengalindo6340 yeah... Thats why when they were fielded to troops, one carried the gun and 1 to 2 others literally lugged packs of mags and extra barrels around, usually with just a pistol for personal protection.
how dare you.
@@yuryvendiktov4832 AN/M3 has a fire rate of 1200RPM. Most belt-fed MGs from WW2 onwards could have their fire rate upped to over 1000RPM, and they often were for the aerial versions. Pre-WW2 weapons like the Vickers K/GO were found to be too fast to be useful and withdrawn for infantry use (and obsolete for aerial use). 1200 RPM is just too hard on barrels and fast to eat ammo, besides which the MG42 concept of "fire so fast there's no man-sized gaps between bullets" was, frankly, wrong.
"Well the Wehrmacht paid you!"
"You mean the Bundeswehr, I assume?"
"Of course!"
"So the Bundeswehr is the successor to the Wehrmacht?
"..."
"Well?"
"...how much did we owe you again?"
"He played us like a damn fiddle!"
Despicable how the Germans are Still so ashamed of themselves, thats the allied co-effort in breaking a countrys spirit and spine so thoroughly that Germany has slowly destroyed itself to this day for ya. Shameful towards their forefathers and wonderful culture.
@@averagejoeschmoe9186 Dude, the things they did are not the sort of thing any country SHOULD get over. The fact that some other countries have tried to bury their ugly pasts rather than acknowledging them is troubling to say the least.
@@autofox1744 give me a break!!! Do you think that for example the Mongolians to this day are ashamed of Genghis khan for killing one third of the worlds population in his destructive wars of conquest? Do you think that the Russkies would anytime soon be ashamed of their forefathers killing tens of millions of people in the gulags, torturing neighbouring countries and waging a destructive ideology of communism throughout the World? No they think they are the winners but please do go and preach them about the wonderful shame culture that Germany has practiced ever since 1945, they will certainly reconsider :D
@@autofox1744 There is a keen difference between moving on to bettering yourself, VS letting your past dictate every facet of your life.
Germany post-WW2 chose the later in everything other than military and weapons development... which is hilariously ironic lol
If there are 51 malfunctions in 1500 rounds fired, that does achieve a slower rate of fire...doesn't it? 😜
One malfunction peer each 30 shots. A shit.
@@indescribablecardinal6571 Well it wasn't uncommon for the German MG42s to have some times feeding problems (like most other Mgs internationally), the guns had mechanics to quickly fix most of the problems with a single pull though.
Former Yugoslavia kept MG-42( known as M-53 "Garonja" in 8mm Mauser).It was in active military service until early '80.
Other nickname was Sarac oe in loose translation the Paint sprayer. And it was in use until the 2000.
They're still in use
I thought the M53 was an MG-34 copy?
@@DarkWizard83 No, it's a copy of MG-42, which had a reduced rate of fire, for better controllability.
1:20 when you capture an MG-42, which to my memory has a fine bipod, and you outfit it with that abomination they also put on the BAR...
It's okay. But the MG 34/42 had one hell of a tripod.
@@Red-jl7jj That's a bit of a middle of terms. The BAR was too heavy to be an effective automatic rifle and lacked the quick change barrel necessary to be an effective light machine gun.
In the 1980's I was still using Saginaw produced 1919 machine guns in the Canadian army, converted to 7.62 NATO.
Allmost same in Greece
Luxury, bloody luxury. I served in the 1970s, before the C5 conversion. It was funny so see the roll-out. We went from constant IAs and stoppages, to running though a belt. I remember a cartoon of an MG firing on the range that had an oil can set up like a hospital. It wasn't far off.
@@chuckhainsworth4801 Ha, That's interesting. I assumed they became crap AFTER the conversion. If they were crap when they were still .30-06, they must have just been totally worn out guns.
@@minuteman4199 GPMGs that we had were converted at whatever worn stage they were at, and they were pigs. I heard the C5s came out after they found a warehouse of the unconverted and less worn one. I shudder to say "new."
In 2015, the US Army found that it still had in its inventory the .50-cal M2 s/n 324. That gun was manufactured in 1921. In its 94 years of service, it had never been overhauled and inspectors said it looked as "good as new."
Story here: www.realcleardefense.com/articles/2015/11/05/us_army_found_an_m2_50_caliber_machine-gun_still_shooting_perfectly_after_90_years_of_service_108648.html
"Let's not talk about that."
German history in brief
Harhar😂
No, we talk a lot about our historical crimes as a nation. Memorials are all over the country. We are being fed with our history since Kindergarten.
This sets us apart from other colonial rulers and warmongers of the past.
@@BewareOfTheKraut It seems like our younger generation are accusing us of the crimes of our forefathers in the USA. I never bought any slaves; never killed any Indians; my predecessors were still in Europe until 1898 and 1908. I've never been The Man. Climb off, kids!
@@billdanosky
Accusing isn't the right term, you are only responsible for things you did or omitted. But those who claim national pride should also acknowledge their nation's flaws in history.
@@BewareOfTheKraut That seems perfectly sensible. However, "it's impossible to have a better past". There is a lot of value in having some patriotism but it's getting lost because people can't come to terms with the nation's sins. We didn't commit them, personally. So it doesn't make the country that exists today inherently evil. I'm okay with being judged for what we're doing now. For instance, I'm upset about us leaving the Kurds out in the cold, but I'm happy with the massive outcry from the country over it. That's coming from real America, and that makes me want to say, "Fuck yeah!"
The MG-42 was so ahead of its time that even in this modern day and age, they are still widely used and well regarded...
And people thought the AK had a long life!
Richard Zheng it’s only got it beat by like 5 years, the numbers give it away,
Meanwhile the browning M2 is just looking at those two and think “darn whippersnappers”
But theres the classic 1911
M2 browning bud way older than the MG42
@William Burns don't even try to act like the garbage rod was ahead of its time or even good
@@Red-jl7jj MG3s are basically the same gun.
US Government/Contractors: "The MG42 shoots too fast."
US Soldiers: *Whole squad pinned in cover by a single MG42 gunner and his assistant hidden in a bush after they kill two GIs in one burp.*
Yeah. It shoots too fast.
Ammo conservation was something the US military was interested in, in training you where only supposed to shoot targets that presented themselves... Soldiers said "fuck that" as soon as they got to the front.
Pretty much any mg could do that though, and for longer with same amount of ammo.
@D L all wars are fought on lessons learned from previous wars
The US Army has a fundamental phobia of anything that isn't a match-grade target rifle in the hands of a regular soldier, hence all those attempts to create something that would pretend to be that by using flechettes, duplex ammo, three-round burst or reluctantly give it full auto capability which you're supposed to ignore 99.7% of the time. The early M16 was more a lapse of judgement than a clear doctrine change.
Faster RPM means faster cycles which means more repairs. Unreliable
That was about seven and half times more interesting than I ever thought it would be... No joke...Thank you Ian. I love this kinda stuff.
Chester Yazwinski yes he does a great job
Back in late 1980s and early 1990s I shot 4 position small bore competitively with a gentlemen who was a member of the NRA technical staff and a engineer for Saginaw Steering Gear. He worked on the M1 carbine, the MG 42 program and even got loaned to Bay City's Presto Lite plant to help work out details on the Grease Gun.
What he told me of the project took place 30 years ago but as I recall this was a short budget for money and time so it was approaches as a proof of concept exercise. The Saginaw team told Army exactly what problems they would encounter in testing which was exactly what they found and reported. The Saginaw team had plans to fix everything in a next stage of development with a bigger budget and more man hours. That next stage never occurred as Ian said.
The high rate of fire was considered very advantageous for shooting at aircraft but wasteful on soldiers. Shooting a 800 rounds per minute means you're going to shot each soldier 3 or 4 times. Shooting half that speed would mean shooting each soldier 1 or 2 times. That is enough to take a wounded soldier out of the fight.
GM really did not want to get into weapons manufacturing post war so there was no lobbying by GM to pursue it any further.
BTW when the project was first brought to Saginaw the team thought they might tool up to build 8mm MG42 for the Chinese. Many Chinese units were armed with 8mm Mauser rifles.
Fascinating! Thanks for sharing
William Prince good info thanks
Fun fact I worked in the Saginaw plant until very recently and to this day we are still proud of the company's involvement in 1919 production. Some of the equipment in the plants are circa 1940s still in 2019!
sooo
would you recommend a pair of saginaw pants for outdoor working? they seem to be pretty endurable right?
@@benjichaser72 oops!
@@cdixy302 its all good!
i just couldnt let that opportunity to make a bad joke pass
lol
I suspect adopting your enemy's GPMG, no matter how advanced, immediately after a bitter conflict would come with some poor optics.
But eventually we got the M60, so we sorta kinda did 'adopt' the MG42 in spirit.
The malfunction rate averages out to 3.4 malfunctions per 100 round belt of ammunition. That is entirely, and totally unacceptable. Saginaw clearly did a rather poor job of reverse/re-engineering the original.
The "little bit rambly" stuff is usually exceptionally interesting.
Andrew Waterman yep... i could listen to this all day
My father served in France and Germany in an armored cavalry unit. He served on an M8 armored car, and was a weapons sergeant. He had a collection of German MG’s on his armored car, including MG42 and 34. He used them to train other troops how to utilize them if needed.
The MG-42 machine gun eventually evolved into the M56 Smartgun.
The MG42 fires so ludicrously fast, when i first heard it i thought sky was tearing in half... i don’t know how you could possibly go faster with a mechanical system other than a gatling style gun... but i’d love to see someone try.
Zerg perhaps a series of mg42s designed into some sort of nightmarish but miraculous Gatling system would be possible, kinda like that one video that's been around for a while that used about five or six SKS's. I guess the best way to accomplish the actual task of increasing the mechanical firing efficiency would be the AA mg42 versions, which have already been tried and trued though.
An entire book on the Browning machine gun? That's actually pretty awesome. Must go into all of the most interesting historical details of it
Heh - that its actually volume 1 of 5 that Dolf Goldsmith has written on the Browning. :) Volume 1 is on rifle calibers gun in US service, 2 is rifle caliber guns in foreign service, 3 is support equipment, 4 is the 50 cal Brownings, and 5 is extra miscellanea.
@@ForgottenWeapons Thanks! Did you read them? If so, would reading parts 1 through 3 be required to understand part 4?
I have all 5, yes. They are largely reference books, and I would say they all stand alone unless you need the overlapping information.
@@ForgottenWeapons Thank-you very much for the info
...still remember my dad recalling the numerous times he was pinned down by a 42
MG 42 and MG3, I've heard stories about some Bundeswehr soldiers finding MG42 receivers on their MG3s even in in this millenium, probably just rumors.
It's the same receiver, my issued m16 was stamped xm16e1, a pre Vietnam prototype receiver, if the receiver works we dont get rid of it it's safe to assume germans dont either.
The father of my best friend had an Austrian MG still with an stamped Hakenkreuz on in something around the 1970's
And yes Austria also uses the MG42 with adaptions and the name MG74
Post-War, MG 42s would be rebuilt to MG1 standard (7.62 NATO), and called the MG2. Both MG1s and MG2s would later be converted to MG3 standard, so it is possible.
If I heard correctly, 90% of the parts on the MG3 are interchangeable with parts from the MG42
I can confirm that. In my Bootcamp in the Bundeswehr, we have recievers with 42 crossout and dates on the recievers of 43 and 45
The 'What Ifs' of history are just pure fascinating. This was a great video. Continue to keep up the good work.
I used the (MG3) MG42 in calibre 30 06 (7,62) in my service in the Norwegian Cavalry in 1999 to 2000. I remember that some of the parts on them had ww2 markings. The MG42 are stil in use in the HV (National Guard).
My Dad fought in Patton's Third Army from the breakout in France until he ended up in Czechoslovakia. I remember him telling a guy at one of their Knights Of Columbus get togethers that the MG42 gave soldiers the pucker effect. Years later, one of the older members told me what that meant - trying to suck your ass all the way into your body while trying to get so small, you could hide behind a pack of cigarettes... crazy stuff the Greatest Generation went through...
One of my ancestors got ripped in half by an MG42 on Omaha Beach. He never got off the boat. It was an effective weapon.
Not gonna lie that belt driven BAR is pretty rad.
"Obviously, I haven't shot an actual T24"
Says, Gun Jesus...the guy who has shot more obscure guns than probably anyone on the planet...yeah...
Yet!
The only one known is in the Springfield ( U.S. army ) arsenal, and they very rarely let anyone play with their toys.
@@williestyle35 You dare doubt the power of Gun Jesus?! Blasphemy! Stone the unbeliever!
@@ihcfn lol
lost and confused , hey there now. I never said Ian could not find a way to access the T 24 prototype, I merely said that Springfield Armoury ( U.S. museum ), is notorious for keeping their display items locked away from *everyone's* hands.
The Bundeswehr is replacing the MG3 with the MG5. The main advantage of the new design is mounting optics for a greater effective range.
@@Red-jl7jj what is wrong with .308?
Optics was never the big concern with the MG5, Rheinmetall offered (and still offers) an upgrade program for the MG3 which would equip them with rails and optic mounts and modernize them.
The much bigger issues were, first of all, the fact that all MG3's in service were getting pretty old and worn at this point and there is only so many times that you want to fix a gun back up before finally getting a new one. Second is the inability of the MG3 to be effective on the move due to its rate of fire and the weight. it also wasn't cost effective to modernize the MG3 when you can receive a new product for a similar price and take with it a large set of advantages.
and the main advantage for the soldier is less pain on the March, i found the MG 3 a bit heavy but it was pure fun to fire with live ammo
Ian thank you! hearing your analysis of the history of MG development after WWII was illuminating. I enjoyed this format and hope you do more like this. Your knowledge of this subject is outstanding.
Absolutely love this informational videos. I hope you get some more videos that are general history of some of these guns. It's nice to hear these kind of stories and to get all this background information.
_"Hi guys! Thanks for tuning in to another video at forgottenweapons dot com"_
I wonder how many viewers of these videos have only seen them on CZcams and never even visited forgottenweapons.com.
Calle Söderberg oh wait..... _there’s a website???_
I’m actually guessing most viewers are on CZcams.
forgottenwebsite dot com
While serving with NATO in the 80's I got to play with the M60, MG-3 (42) and FN M240. I can tell you, most dependable M240, most fun MG-3 and mostly bad news M60.
Yoda5 I was in Germany for Reforger wargames in the 80s. We came across a bunch of Germans resting along a road. They were kicked back taking it easy. BUT 1 SOLDIER stuck out they all had the camo uniforms and Kevlar helmet but that one had an MG42 laying across his chest while he was resting on his back and TO ME it looked like a WW2 photo of the German army. It was only later that I was informed that it was now called the MG3. I got to fire it while there and was shown ww2 stamps on gun after firing it on their WW2 tripod getup. What's not to like about that gun.
@@johnjordanakajoejordanwhen2295 I won a beer while shooting with our Bundeswehr partner unit. I was able to pull off a single shot on an MG3 (with full belt). Even though the Germans had slowed the rate of fire on the MG3 vs a MG42 (900 rpm from 1,200). Nick named "Hitler's buzz saw" by GI's in WW2 the MG42 / MG3 is sleek, fast and dependable. The M240 while an outstanding action is still drop locking as compared to the roller lock bolt on the MG3. The M60 or "the Pig" is loved by many Vietnam and Cold War veterans was actually a development by the US from features of the MG42 and the FG42 (paratroop assault rifle).
@@yoda5565 Did you know that the M240 is nothing more than a upside down beltfeed BAR????
@Yoda 5 Actually it was "only" slowed down from 1500 to 1200, which makes a single shot even more difficult than you thought. I've only met a single handful who can, and never managed myself. So I'm saying, you really earned that beer. Prost!
Yah the M60 was definitely not the best especially after Vietnam Era took the quickly built MGs and made them basically over weight pigs.
Well this video is a great little slice of the MG world. Thanks! I remember being drunk asking my MG question when you had your interview with John Keene. It's great to see the topic expanded! Thanks Ian!
This level of discussion would make an awesome podcast. Well researched, informative, and well presented.
I really enjoy this even though there isn't a gun for us to look at or for you to shoot. Do not be afraid to do more of these in the future!
This is where I wish some of the Q&A questions would end up with a deeper dive
"Are you saying that the Bundeswehr is the modern incarnation of the Wehrmacht?"
"Here's the money"
Lol blackmail
In the austrian Bundeheer we used MG42 in 7,62x51 with blanks to simulate Flak.
There was a adapter to mount the MG42 in the place the drum magazine of the 20mm Canon was used und a wire construction to fire the MG instead the canon.
He used 3 of this modified MG42.
With the blue Plastic Blanks, one run very wenll, one jammed from time to time and one jammed permanently.
With Ball Ammo we use only 2 of the 3 MG42 and they worked mostly.
The 7,62 conversion have not the high firing rate of the 8mm.
I really enjoyed this presentation. Please consider doing more like this.
Also worth noting that the FN MAG uses the MG34/MG42 feed system, and that it was ultimately adopted by the US as the M240
You think those royalty claims as silly, look at Vickers paying Krupp for artillery time fuses manufactured by vickers under license from Krupp during WW1!
I have always wondered about alot of the information you shared today, great video thanks! 🎃
You tell interesting stories! Well narrated. Well researched. Thanks!
The MG-42 lives on as the MG-3 in the German Army - (at least) - and IIRC in other armies in a different designation...I got to shoot one while I was stationed in Germany from 8 Nov '71 - 18 Jul ;74)...I got lucky enough to put the required amount of holes in the target to get the bronze (3rd class) German shooting cord (Schutzenschnur) I also shot the G-3 but was seriously disappointed that I didn't get to shoot the P-1 (post War version of the P-38)...thanx, Ian
No love for the Swiss MG51? Wanted to know how the story of that gun fits into this picture
kingsnake41st good question
This is the kind of content why Im following you. Well done.
Thanks Ian
I've always enjoyed the videos and your informational knowledge.
I used to work with a guy who's father had a complete U.S. government set of technical manual's on infratry weapons in WW2. In one of the books it has a section on the T24. The major problem was the fact that the receiver was to short by 1/8 to 2/8ths of an inch which caused the problems!!!.
TrentXIII B good info
US ordnance putting their own spin on things when converting weapons to US production specs is hardly unknown.
It's one of the reasons why the US never had a 20mm cannon that was quite as reliable as the original.
They pretty much copied the brit version of the HS 404 but for some god awfull reason ( only US engineers know firearms hur dur ) they lengthened the chamber by 1/16". And initially insisted upon navy cannon tolerances ( manually fed cannons ) and not machinegun production tolerances...que extraction problems and primer issues. Leading to the need for greased ammo and a fetish for inflight cocking mechanisms ( at weight and space penalties ).
Eventually they consulted with the brits...who dryly noted the incorrect chamber dimensions and suggested the US might want follow brit specs.
Ofcourse the US engineers still knew best ..... and only decreased the chamber length by 1/32". Which only somewhat mitigated reliability issues.
A lot of times in the US & other countries NIH is a big factor ( Not Invented Here ) in decisions companies and governments make. No matter how good & effective something is the host country tries to make it it's own a lot of time with disastrous results just like the T24 which if had been done properly with new manufactured receivers that were scaled up for the 30-06 cartridge and not messing with the rate of fire it might have worked. The rule in testing & development of anything is change one thing at a time to verify results because if change more than one thing it causes a combination effect that does not show how the individual changes worked.
As an Infantryman in the Army in 1974-1975 I learned about other countries weapons like the FN Minimi, FAL and MAG. On subsequent tours of active duty (1978-1980, 1983-1992) I would learn more about their successes elsewhere until I was fortunate enough to have some of them available during my turn in the sandbox.
My experience with the M 249 and the M240C confirmed my expectations of these fine weapons.
I also enjoyed my opportunities to qualify with the Bundeswehr’s small arms such as the MG 3 during my three tours of West Germany.
Your posts are both educational and interesting. Thank you for doing what you do.
Fascinating information. It's interesting to see just how how difficult it was to change calibers on the gun.
It was very easy converting them to 7,62x51..
I was really hoping Ian would mention the 5.56 CETME Ameli. Just where did that thing come from and what would it feel like with the lighter cartridge?
Great idea. But made in Spain and poorly.
The Ameli largely came from the roller delayed blow back system in the CETME rifle. Can't tell you how it shot or felt, but maybe the Forgotten Weapons video on the CETME - L rifle can help.
I remember playing with an MG-3, and comparing it to an M-60 (which I had carried for a few years at this point). Higher ups were talking about phasing out the pig, and most of us were suggesting the MG-3, if they really were going to get rid of the 60.
So, what did they do...went with the FN, the worst of the three.
Awesome episode sir! That was some really cool info.
Hi, Ian. Your expertise is always well received. So, when I start development on my rotary barreled SMG, I will budget about 10 years to get it right. Thanks for the heads up. ;-D Thanks for sharing! Stay healthy!
Ah, the AA 52, a french gun not even Ian can like.
Is there a video on it?
@@GJ203 Nope
CZcams Video czcams.com/video/86Tvj6hz1aE/video.html
Yay, my country (norway) got mentioned, would be interesting to hear more about our wierd conversion of the MGs
Funny, I was just reading about it the other day. MG34s converted to 30-06 and then 7.62Nato
IIRC, years ago when I had a private tour at Springfield Armory we were told that there was some issues of converting dimensions from metric measurements. They had one in inventory.
Thank you again Ian for an excellent video.
And in 1977, the US Army finally saw the light, and adopted the FN MAG as well!
To replace the God awful M-219 co-ax machine gun. The one place where weight did not mater, and the Army gave us a new fangled light weight machine gun. And because of the low numbers used, they never had the money to develop it.
Do you understand just how bad the M240B actually is as an infantry weapon? Like, it legitimately sucks. Weight/size is excessive for the dismount role, optics mounting is iffy, downward ejection is a PITA for dismount use off the bipod, no good way to actually carry the thing besides throwing it across your shoulders, and no good way to carry ammunition on the weapon. It's a horrendous choice. It's a great coax for sure, but it was definitely bs'd into the infantry role.
--someone who's carried one.
@@noahfriend320 Thank you for that insight! Always nice to hear from people who have actually used the guns.
I like the FN MAG, but then again, I never had to carry it! ;)
Noah Friend it must have something going for it! Being going strong since 1950s, uncomplicated and reliable, over 200,000 made! Used by over 90 different regular armies, used in many different roles successfully......not many other guns have been used almost unchanged for almost 70 years!
@@andylaw2542 You wanna know what it had going for it?
A) They were already using it as a coax/mounted weapon and were trying to save money in a dismount role.
B) It wasn't an M60, which Army leadership was very negative towards to by the 1980s for reasons Ian enumerates in other videos.
Those are certainly postives (and there are other positives, such as reliability and a decent barrel change system) but it doesn't change the major issues with dismounted employment. There are and were better options for the infantry role.
What a lovely start to the day 🤘🏻
Outstanding video and presentation.
EdM240B hit the nail on the head. The Springfield Armory Museum attic is the place to go for 'why'. The MG42 into the M60 was a sore spot till the last worker - or his mind- died. Many years ago I spoke to a friend of my father who worked there towards the end, "we all felt 'blackballed' by being required to redesign... things that didn't need improvement. In 30-06, problems. In 7,62 NATO, not so much. The quick swap barrel was a really good idea, shooting slower with like a dimmer switch? We coulda done that. When you are all done and proud of your work, they army comes in and say they don't like it. Why didn't they say that earlier? Then be accused of wasting money on the MG42 project, while being ordered to design Gatling and chain guns that weren't even an idea in someone's head yet- you know what 'depleted uranium' is? People died just touching the $!!t. We are suppose to dog it in a lathe and put your nose next to the cutting tool?? B@## $%^t !" At the same time, an hour down the road, Electric Boat was drowning in billions and billions- at a time an Armory machinist made 80 bucks a week? And you can bet no one got in EB's face over ANYTHING". So the resentment ran deep. The same old man when I asked about the M14, "Oh b@## $%^t ! The army said it couldn't hit anything. If you removed the goofy flash suppressor, any one of em could hit anything at any range! They said it couldn't hit nothin' in full auto. Hey NOTHING hits NOTHING in full auto! We had holes in the roof to prove it! They were trying to close the doors on us, and the rotten SOB's did!!" Boy the bitterness did not end till they did..
This machine gun will never be retired even if lasers and aliens have arrived
Many countires use mg 3:s (mg-42 in 7,62 nato) because they got them when they bought German cold war surplus Leopard 2 tanks.
I work at an FFL and hear lot of stories from gun folk especially collectors. today an older man in his mid 80s told me about a shotgun he has from the second world war, he described it as a 12 gauge Browning automatic rifle (not made by Browning) that was issued for training purposes only. The way he explained it, they would mount it to a vehicle to train aircrew men on operating a similar moving weapon on moving targets. I was thoroughly confused and intrigued so I spent spent hours trying to find an example on the internet with no luck. Has anybody here ever heard of such a thing? Maybe I misunderstood. I figured this would be the place to ask because I don't use the internet much. I would message Ian directly but like I mentioned I'm not good at internet stuff.
Osker Minute 12:00. czcams.com/video/hIQcgRw6Z8c/video.html
Pretty cool you hosted the link for the t24 report
"Hopefuly there is some interesing information for you guys..." Oh yes, it is! I absolutley love this historical videos.
Ian sez: "Small arms development takes ten years..." (pauses to think. Remembers STEn took
Love the history as much as the firearms. Thank you for sharing your knowledge
The Italian Army never adopted the MG 42 proper, what they adopted in 1959 was the MG 42/59 which was a reworked version by Beretta of the MG-3.
SMAL in Terni also tried a 5,56mm version of the MG 42/59, but it was never adopted as it was much heavier or the FN MINIMI.
Hey Ian ever heard of the Peiper Volley Rifle?
Great video, however you forget that the United States did eventually adopt the FN MAG as the M240.
AA52 Machine Gun - I hope you get your hands on one for a video mate.
Thanks for posting - enjoyed the deep dive into post ware MG development.
The most amazing aspect of Mg-42 was that it Chief Designer was not weapon engineer, but designer of pocket flashlights and Coffee boxes.
The ultimate weapon for suppressive fire.
Dude talking about historical facts
CZcams: DEMONETIZE !
Love the history videos. Great job Ian!
Great video, as always, Ian!:)-John in Texas
10 years to develop a rifle... Degterev with his PTRD giggles.
"Ivan, we need to stop the German advance." - "Just weld two pipes together."
Thought I was in an alternate timeline for a second there.
I have to watch every Forgotten Weapons video twice because the first time I'm usually just writing down the titles of the books that I see in Ian's periphery.
Norway is currently using a MG42 converted to .308 (7.62 nato) called MG3.
Works brilliantly. Put several 1000 rounds through it without malfunction myself.
Could you do an episode on the MG3 please .
New weapon concept comes along
Most nations sooner or later figure out it the way to go.
US : Naaah ! Let's try something different ...
Also the US: let's replace smgs with a full size rifle in 308.
More like: FN develops a really solid weapon
The US: betcha I could do better
*Horribly fails*
US: Sooner or later, come running back to FN
@@remcodenouden5019 The FN FAL had issues with its gas sysyem apparently. I can see why the US didn't adopt it, even if the M14 was crap.
@@warellis did you just say that the fal was in any way equal to the m14? The fn fal is probably the best thing that ever happened to alot of countrys.
if USMC had run the mg42 R&D, T&E, adoption, wooda solved WHATEVER problems, frigging slaughtered the chicom human wave attacks in korea
My dad told the story that his M1917 squad, decided to try and boost the cyclic rate of their M1917 by replacing the fiber buffer with a couple of nickels, He said the nickels fit perfectly. The cyclic rate was around 900+ rounds per minute. Two problems, one the guys were concerned with damaging the gun by using the higher cyclic rate, and far more important, the higher cyclic rate attracted unwanted attention from nearby allied units who automatically associated high cyclic rate MG fire with the Germans. They replaced the nickels with the fiber buffer after that experiment.
Ian: A good military firearm spends about 10 years in development
PTRD-41: *lauhgs in 3 week development time*
The belt fed B.A.R looks like a M240
You're kidding, right?...because I'd be surprised if you didn't know the FN-MAG (which is the FN redesign of the BAR mechanisms to make it belt-fed) **IS** the M240.
The M240 is nothing more than a upside down beltfeed BAR.
I see that WWSD “dmr” poking out ;)
I had no idea the FN-MAG was highly based upon Browning's BAR mechanism... and that tickles me for some strange reason. Browning uber alles, and >> Kalashnikov as a designer. What a genius.
amazing as always