Better than Baltic Birch? [video 572]
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- čas přidán 9. 05. 2024
- In this one I make some plywood inserts for the recent #SYS-TOTE, but instead of using 4mm ‘Baltic’ #BirchPlywood, I use something far more interesting - and expensive! Enjoy!
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Thanks to Adam Savage @tested for highlighting this plywood in his ‘drawer dividers’ one day build - • Adam Savage's One Day ...
In the U.S. buy similar plywood from aircraftspruce.com, @aircraftsprucevideos
I bought my 4mm ply from the Swindon Aircraft Timber Company - www.aircraftplywoodandtimber.c...
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Other videos and playlists of interest:-
DIY SYS-TOTE - • $10 Tool Tote [video 567]
My 6 Top Tapes - • My 6 Top Tapes [video ...
Which glue when? - • Which Glue When? [vide...
DIY Rail Stop - • Pocket-money DIY Rails...
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Bargain or Burden; first look at woodcrafts ‘MFT’ - • Bargain or Burden? I b...
3 MFT Rail Hinges - • 3 MFT Rail Hinges [**...
DIY Rail Hinge - • Pocket-money Rail Hing...
MFT & MFT-related Playlist - bit.ly/MFT-related
Basic Builds Playlist - bit.ly/BasicBuilds
My Last Build & Install - bit.ly/MyLastBuild
Square Cuts: MFT or Rail Square? - • Square cuts: MFT or Ra...
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Plywood A3 sheet hobby pack - amzn.to/3QEbg5l
Plywood A4 sheet hobby packs - amzn.to/4d3bg8H
Tesa 4440 exterior blue tape (B096BKNFM2) - amzn.to/3Q3lBYo
Birch Laser ply from Tilgear - www.tilgear.info/materials/wo...
Aero ply from Chiltern timber - www.chilterntimber.co.uk/prod...
Bessey DuoKlamp - amzn.to/3eDz1Ig
Hultafors Talmeter tape measure - amzn.to/2pHwnbH
Hinge drilling guide (used as a saddle square) - amzn.to/48jp0ty
Stainless steel graphics knife, Olfa SAC-1 - amzn.to/3DnWzvJ
BicMatic Fine point 0.5mm pencils - amzn.to/3uldrlX
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Benchdogs carpenters square (Gifted) - benchdogs.co.uk/products/175m...
Benchdogs Ultra COMBI Max square - benchdogs.co.uk/products/ultr...
Benchdogs precision rulers (gifted) - benchdogs.co.uk/collections/r...
Benchdogs precision squares (gifted)- benchdogs.co.uk/products/stai...
Benchdogs CSC SYS Fence (gifted) - benchdogs.co.uk/collections/c... - Jak na to + styl
![Cutting The (tablesaw) Cord 1 Year Later [video 573]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/T5_9DQJC4v8/mqdefault.jpg)
Anybody else got serious plywood envy after watching this? 🙂 Great video Peter.
Thanks! 👍
The thing I love in aircraft ply are the 1/64" sheets (less that 1/2 mm) with 3 perfect plies. Similar to the stuff they print business cards on.
The purpose of a large number of plies is to create panels that have equal strength/stiffness in all directions. It may be something to do with shearing also. In a lot of cases, unbalanced plies are you friend. So for these boxes, if you had material that was biased to the top sheet direction, and that was oriented to the top edge, the box would feel stiffer, and probably work better if you were using lighter material, which you could. I have made similar boxes in 3mm ply, that was actually 2.7mm But that have lasted 30 years, as magazine boxes. Much heavier loads and longer spans. 4mm ply is almost 2.4 times stiffer than 3mm, so for that little weight and cost increase, you can get a significant increase in performance of a sort.
We used to get 1/64" Baltic Birch 3 ply when I was a kid building model airplanes a very long time ago.
Off-topic comment: I bought the plans for your diy rail hinge. Ended up building something quite different, but it was very helpful to have your plans as a point of departure. Anyway, I think that your design is better than the commercially available options not only for people who lack space, but also for people with big tables: if I bought one of the available options, I'd have to walk around the table every time I wanted to adjust the height. A self-adjusting mechanism is much better in that use case. If I were in charge of e.g. UJK's product development team, I'd work with you to bring it to the market as a small shop/big table alternative to Benchdogs etc.
Thanks! Yes, I’m surprised nobody else has made something similar commercially tbh. Maybe I’ll have to revisit the coatings again… 🤷♂️👍
@@10MinuteWorkshop Puzzling indeed. Your version solves pretty much all the problems that the alternatives create if you have a small shop or a big bench. I was initially tempted by the Benchdogs version, but as soon as I watched your rail hinge video, I realized that it would serve my needs much better. Very well thought through design.
Out here on the west coast of Canada, (British Columbia) we have a long history of making aircraft out of aircraft plywood. Not regulated during WWII like aluminum it gained quite the reputation for strength and airworthiness. Look up the "Spruce Goose" it was the worlds largest seaplane made of wood. The footage is crazy. Wi can pick it up at our specialty store. JIM
What a brilliant idea using an upright square to assemble stuff. No fussing about.
It is an absolute delight to work with that quality of material, and the things you can do… wort every penny 🤓
😂👍
these would be perfect candidate for 3d printing :)
I've seen a lot of people making those
I actually found that kind of thing not worth it. 3D printing speeds are increasing, but what I found was that large panels take too long to print. What I preferred to do was print complex items. So I make this very technical small box with a hinge, that is basically just a technical cigar box in form. What I print are the 1" sides, and the fillets, and pre-drilled hinge installation holes, etc... Some angles that stiffen free edges, attachment points by which they mount to a tripod. But I do not print the top and the bottom.
I think the birch ply and black technical elements look better. The flat surfaces printed, are not all that nice, while the vertical printed sides display pleasing fine lines. However, more is not better, as a look. The lids are 3mm birch, very light and stiff, but in 3D they would turn out as solid plastic as they are too thin to use the structural 30% fill I use on similar robust parts.
Of course, if you 3D print, you can walk away. But these parts, when made in all ply by the people that sell them for a living, for an 8x8x1 box, cost over 300 US dollars. So when making my own, custom, I don't mind a few hours of hand work and finishing, so it doesn't look like a Cracker Jack prize.
Just some thoughts.
@@tacticalskiffs8134 flat surfaces are very nice on new printers and speeds are really good right now, one box like this could be done in an hour
@@tacticalskiffs8134 Stuff like the sustainer boxes for small items are worth it in my opinion, I'm currently printing of a tonne of GRIDFINITY boxes, grids, & holders etc for my new workshop storage. Organising small gear was always my downfall but the GRIDFINITY system is absolutely amazing for this purpose.
Thanks for sharing.
Wow! My three go-to UK DIYers in one place! 🤔🤣😁
Peter, congratulations on the videos, it's very TOP
Maker Central looks awesome! Unfortunately I'm heading back from America that weekend, but it'll definitely be one to try to get to next year!
Especially at smaller dimensions like those, I tend to resaw solid lumber-from offcuts if I have them, which I usually do-and mill to final thickness.
Many old aircraft were skinned with fabric and dope (plasticized lacquer).
I would not be worried about a 0.8mm ply skin.
Doped fabric is for moisture protection. Nowadays it is achieved with a lightweight glass fibre cloth with epoxy, 100 or even less g/m2.
Wing skins are usually 1.5-3 mm thick. The plane I intend to build, F.8L Falco, has 1.5 to 2.5 mm wing skins and ailerons, flaps and other control surfaces with .8 mm.
Aircraft ply is very good. It expensive in the US as well. The 8 ply arrangement is unusual; it's usually 7 plies. Either way, if it's certified that means there are (should be) no voids in any of the veneers. I'm a lifelong model airplane builder and flyer and have a few years of experience working on full sized antique and aerobatic aircraft made of wood.
An odd I,beri plys will aiways give you the two faces in the same orientation if grain. It sounded like you said they were opposite.
Looking forward to seeing you next weekend Peter
Can't wait! 👍
Thanks Peter. I do like your pragmatic approach. No time consuming finger joints when plain old glue will suffice. I shall try to be more like you!
Thanks! Can you imagine how long finger joints would have taken! 😯😂
@@10MinuteWorkshop I would think only using a CNC would that make sense, and then only if you're making lots of them, not just 4. There's a youtube video title: "Making a Kitchen on a Hobby-level CNC Router" that shows the technique.
I don't have access to a 3D printer yet, so for many of my tool or parts cases, I've used the flatest I can get, 5mm or 1/8" ply to make my boxes out of. Well done as always. Enjoy you time at the trade shows.
3D printers are great for sustainer boxes amongst many other things, my printer has been printing "GRIDFINITY" style boxes for my new workshop storage system non stop over the last few weeks. The Bambu printers are great, I'd never used a 3D printer in my life & I was away printing within only a couple of hours of it arriving.
I was the Guitar Doctor for Stars Guitars from '77 - '80, which had started out as the store that Alembic had at 60 Brady Alley in San Francisco until they decided to sell off the store, which became Stars, owned by Ron Armstrong who started it & two partners; their professional 24 track recording studio, which became His Master's Wheels, owned by Elliot Mazer ,and their speaker cabinet business when they moved to Cotati, California to just concentrate on making state of the art, neck through the body electric guitars and basses. The speaker cabinets were made out of 13 ply 3/4" Finnish birch with 5/8" soundboards. They did that because marine grade plywood has no voids (which would cause unwanted vibration induced noise) and it is waterproof which makes it the only choice for professional outdoor concert sound systems. Look at video of any of the big Rock & Roll concerts from the late '60's through the '80's and you'll see them being use on stage and up in towers as the PA system. (The musicians all have their own favorite instrument amps & speakers.)
Sorry to be so over long, but I thought the weather resistance of marine grade, voidless plywood might come in handy for outdoor and/or humid conditions plus, of course, cutting holes for finger pulls, etc. w/o having to fill an unexpected gap in a project. My Alembic B-12 speaker cabinet and the 5/8" speaker board I replaced the original one in my Fender Super Reverb with have all held up remarkably well over the decades from club work to large outdoor concerts with no deformation whatsoever.
Really nice work, Peter! The little boxes look great! 😃
I've never seen that kind of plywood either! But I do need some balsa plywood for rc airplanes...
Anyway, stay safe there with your family! 🖖😊
Thanks! You too! 👍
Still looks as though Vibrainium sheet is favourite for my workshop cabinets given the ongoing price gouging of Baltic Birch ply.
Yeah, right alongside unobtainium. 👍👍
Fascinating material! Plywood is arguably a step up from doped Irish linen as far as aviation concerned
I would think that ply is manufactured by Koskisen of Finland, they manufacture a lot of quality thin plywood. I recently had some samples sent o me by their Uk rep and it is certainly a quality product. they also do a 4 ply 3mm ply as well as the 6 ply. It is considerably cheaper to buy direct but there is a MOQ of 200 sheets,
Hope too bump into next week Peter, my 1st time on a scouting trip not buying this time around.
Look forward to it! 👍
I've tried that plywood back when I first started woodworking; it's nice, but not a ton better than baltic birch. Not worth the price increase at least. In the states it's sold as "finnish ply". IIRC the glue they use is waterproof, one of the main differences between it and bb ply.
Most of the Birch ply we get here in the uk is exterior grade; it’s thinness of the ply’s that sets this apart. 👍
It used to be the case that most of our ply used the purple glue, including door skins at 5 bucks a sheet. People were using the stuff to make catamarans.
Rang a bell just checked I have 2 sheets of 6mm 6 ply I have been keeping for a rainy day From a big box store in Germany.
The sweetest ply I've seen was from the centre console of a 90s BMW 750i - the same that Tupac got his high speed lead poisoning in. Many plies of something dark like maybe mahogany (original sales literature probably says), but it also had two layers of aluminium laminated in 1 deep bottom and top. Just exquisite.
Isn't it strange how timber prices have not rationalised post pandemic ? - Trees must have had a cost of living crisis that we didn't know about - or Putin is just taking the Mik - or Canada just stopped supply - or Sweden didn't want to join the game - is it just me , or are they gouging ?
Weetabix £ 7.00 - its dearer than contiboard, but doesn't glue as well.
Pricey stuff but looks good! See you at Makers Central - I'm going for the first time as a visitor not stuck on a stand :D
Oh, nice one! I have to odd dream about doing that, but usually all I ever manage is a quick walkabout before the doors open in the Saturday! See you there! 👍👍
So no new DH98 Mosquito coming out of the Millard Aircraft Factory, in the near future, then?
Not in the near future, no! 😂👍
Hands up as someone who questioned things falling down the hole 🙋♀😂 The dividers look great and the material is really interesting if a bit pricey (Adam Savege is a bit of a fiend for using the best of the best for everything but I guess he has earned it by this point haha). Nice to see a simple construction that isn't over engineered for the job without fancy finger joints or the like. We're all guilty of over engineering, reigning it back to suit a projects purpose is a skill as worthy of learning as much as the fancey stuff!
Thank you! 🙌 And yes, Adam has a lot to answer for - I still have an automatic tape dispense in my amazon shopping basket...! 😬 There's no doubt finger joints would be stronger, but a simple glue joint is strong enough for this application. 👍
@@10MinuteWorkshop after last week's video you would need six automatic tape dispensers 😂
@@gingerelvis 😂
Thanks Peter, interesting (although unlike a lot of your other videos I won't be building this one!) I wonder if are you going to review Benchdogs new MFT tops that I've just had an email about though?
Thanks! Not sure what there'll be to say about an MFT top, other than the fact that there may be a conflict of interests around the 10MW MFT jig. 👍
Interesting.
hi peter fantastic job as always
just wondering have you given up on the cnc
maybe i missed you telling us about it although i do watch almost all of your videos
forgive me if i have missed your video on the cnc update
anyway it always great to see a video from you as you go into great detail
in everything you make
regards
james
Thanks James! Yes, I have the CNC away a few years ago; too big for the space I have, too small and slow to be useful, unfortunately. 🤷♂️👍
@@10MinuteWorkshop yes i can understand that space is indeed needed
alright and i guess unless you really need one then the templates that you make are more than adequate for most user needs i hope you
have a great time at the shows you are attending
all the best
james
Here we go again- learning about material that I need to save for 😅. Last time I went down that Peter Millard rabbit hole, I wound up with a sheet of black Valchromat and made new tops for my mft's. Very cool, but very expensive stuff. But I did learn something new and had great fun doing it, so that's really what matters at the end of the day, doesn't it?
Always a lesson to be learned! and Thanks! 👍
Anyone know where to get the 18mm birch ply in the UK these days?
Haven't seen any dramatic shortages, it's just expensive; my local yard has it at £150/sheet... 😬
I always thought wooden plane skins were actually build ups of multiple layers of ply epoxied together to make a final thickness of quarter to half inch dependent on the structural needs of the aircraft. Thin ply’s allow forming of smooth curves needed for smooth airflow. That along torsion box techniques allowed for the curvy shapes of Hugh’s spruce goose, or de Havilland mosquito which used wood as a light weight structural material
There are different methods. Small planes usually just have single sheet ply skin of different thicknesses, depending on the load.
Mosquito, a famous WW2 fighter bomber had sandwich constructio. A balsa core sandwiched between two thin plywood sheets.
Plywood is quite easy to bend, it conforms to shapes quite easily, thicker skins and tighter radii may require some heat and steam and some prebending.
Interestingly, one of the most popular glues in wooden planes is Aerolite, the same glue used in Mosquito in WW2. It has even some advantages over epoxy. With epoxy you're limited with choice of colour, you can only use light colours, since the strenght of epoxy decreases with increased temperature, Aerolite doesn't have such problem.
@@fifi23o5 thanks, I wasn’t quite sure what the glue was, as I hadn’t thought about airplane design since my youth. I am interested in developing some veneering techniques for some projects ahead of me. I wonder how Aerolite might work for my application 🤔
@@toddstrope157 It should be just fine. It is heat and moisture resistant, it is used in chipbord and plywood production.
It is an urea-formildehyde glue
@@fifi23o5 The formaldehyde based formulation might pose an outgassing challenge, still working on my shop ventilation for the builds and my wife is extremely sensitive for the final product. But it's definitely worth a look, thanks!
@@toddstrope157 It also gave me a skin reaction.
Marine epoxy is great for laminating, and it does not require a lot of pressure. People laminate 60 foot sheets of 3mm doorskins using just the smalles shop vac for pressure. Work with ply because ply is even. If you laminate 4x8 sheets, the last 1" will no have proper clamping pressure, but the rest does. As long as the plies or joints are surrounded by more material the pressure is sufficient. So the edges need to be trimmed. Or you can use a proper vac pump, they develop about 7X pressure. But even the humble shopvac will develop 9000 pounds of pressure on a single sheet of ply.
If you use the small shop vac, you have to drill 4 x 1/4" holes to provide enough airflow so the vac doesn't overhead. I did lots of layups and the vac was fine, it needs to be left on for 8 hours at a go. That is the nice thing about using wood glue as it will dry in half an hour.
Laminating actual veneers is tricky, at vac pressures. The material is not much thicker than paper, but it has little crinkles to it, and those take heavy localized pressure to flatten out. Plus, epoxy will come through. If your projects are small, size of a table, or smaller, you can try hammer veneering. I only tried it once, but it worked great.
Great video's Why use expensive aircraft grade plywood for draw dividers?
Thanks. And why not? As I say in the vid I'd be spending a decent amount just to get ordinary 4mm birch, and I wanted to try this after the Adam Savage video. 👍
Peter, I wouldn't be scared to fly a plane covered in that plywood. Remember, there are planes covered in canvas!
At the risk of using bad language - the infill boxes would be good 3d-printed too.
Also look into Marine Grade plywood.
Different animal, but yes, nice quality board. 👍
It is usually a lot cheaper and thicker sizes. No 1/64" material. I noticed the stuff he bought had that nice purple black glue. So it is better than marine grade in spec while having the same glue.
I used to use that type of ply for making boomerangs. Great stuff.
Nice! 👍
What do you call a boomerang that doesn’t come back?
Hi Peter, Nice little storage boxes for your tool caddy, easy and simple to make, great video Take care
Thanks 👍
I am going into business making half-ply plywood.
Wait. Funnier: I was going to go into business making half-ply plywood, but I figured, what’s the point?
You need a 3D printer for those containers boxes. You would get a lot of boxes out of a 1kg roll of PLA at around £18.
Very nice ply Peter, but what a price, I'm guessing you used about 1/3 the sheet so around £35, does that sound about right to you ?
By complete contrast I picked up some dirt cheap "Vaunt" inserts ( for their tool system boxes ) - 14 pieces for around £2, and I am making a custom tote to fit them in !
Have a great time at the shows, make sure you keep well hydrated both during and after the show if you know what I mean ! 😉🥤☕🍻🍷
Thanks! Yes, about 1/3 of what I had to make these. Looks good though! 👍
Russia is missing an opportunity. The country has a half-continent of Birch ready to harvest.
All that timber and nobody will buy it from them; I wonder what they could have done wrong?? 🤔
@@10MinuteWorkshop protected their country from the USA and the west maybe!
try bamboo its amazing
Tough on blades I’m told, but would be interested to try it! 👍👍
Aircraft Spruce and Specialty Co. I think they took their name from selling.....spruce....for airplanes. There are pretty strict rules (thank goodness) for the density, strength, quality and species of wood used on planes. Lots of planes are still made of wood and have been since Orville and Wilbur. AS&SC are a long established company that sells almost anything you can imagine to build or repair or maintain your aircraft. Good quality, not cheap (what is for an airplane?).
Thanks! Yes, it's like you add "marine" to something and the price jumps 60%, if you add 'aircraft' to something it doubles again! 🤷♂️ 👍
“The appropriately named Tim Wood…”
😆
4mm! Hmmm.
Regarding .8mm ply use in aircraft, it must be noted that when used to skin a wing, the primary functional requirement is tensile strength as a wing depends upon the ability of the material used as a skin to resist tearing forces. Aircraft wings are, in one sense, the ultimate torsion box, a structure that gets most of its strength from the exterior surface. Perfectlygood airplanes have been built using natural fiber cloth such as cotton or linen (synthetic materials are now the norm) and, I am quite sure that quality birch plywood is stronger than either of these. While I don’t know what thickness of plywood was used in the DeHavilland Mosquito, one of the fastest aircraft of WWII, I would venture a guess that it is not far off the .8 mm thickness).
The thinnest plywood I've came across is .4 mm 3ply. I had to buy it and made business cards from it. Some were laser engraved, that was quite a challenge and some I just printed in a regular printer.
I'm starting to build a plane soon. It's all made of wood, spruce structure with birch ply skin. The thinnest slin is .8 mm on control surfaces, wings 1.5 to 2.5 mm. And the thing is very fast and fully aerobatic.
"a true monocoque carries both tensile and compressive forces within the skin and can be recognized by the absence of a load-carrying internal frame."
Torsion boxes use the skin to transfer loads the skeleton, which is something like bulkheads and stringers.
Most smaller aircraft wings rely on spars to carry the main loads, and other structures to support the skin. The skin can also stabilize the wing against twisting, often with the assist of wires, or struts. Usually, the larger a plane is, and the more power it uses, the more efficient moving towards monocoque construction becomes.
Plane wings need to pass a test where the wing is loaded evenly with sandbags, up to the weight of the aircraft and it's load, x some multiplier related to the extremes of it's service, so level flying through to things like aerobatics.
@@tacticalskiffs8134 I have to correct you a bit. All plane wings, small or big, have spars. The only exception, at least in production aircraft are two types of gliders, all other planes have spars, a lot of planes with low aspekt radio even have multiple spars.
So that was what, 30£ in plywood for those boxes ? :/
About that. Have to spend those CZcams millions somehow. 🤷♂️👍
@@10MinuteWorkshop Nice boxes, I'm just salty about the cost of materials these days.
But....
If there is leftover, you can build toy airplane
It crossed my mind! 😂👍