Cardassians and Bajorans are the SAME SPECIES (Star Trek theory)
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- čas přidán 29. 11. 2017
- Cardassians and Bajorans don't seem like likely candidates for being the same species, but all the evidence seems to point to that conclusion.
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To be classified as the same species they would need to produce fertile offspring, we don't know if Bajoran/Cardasian hybrids are fertile or not.
That's a fair point, and any simplified definition of species typically breaks down at some level. I actually had a whole section in my video on this, but it was really pushing pretty far off-topic. I'll put that information in this comment.
"But infertility is never a feature mentioned in any Star Trek hybrid. And even hybrids that might require medical intervention (and are definitely not the same species by that regard) are indeed fertile, such as B'elanna Torres or Deanna Troi. We also have evidence of Human/Romulan hybrids being fertile in Crewman Simon Tarses, who appears in the episode "The Drumhead". Tarses had a Romulan grandfather and therefore one of his parents was a fertile half-Romulan hybrid. We don't have any specific confirmation that Cardassian/Bajoran hybrids are fertile, but in a world where fertile hybrids are apparently the norm, you'd think it would get mentioned somewhere."
Arguably an argument from silence, but there's only so well we can do with Star Trek canon sometimes!
While not a perfect example to along with your theory, I would like to point out that K'Ehleyr was fertile with at least full blooded Klingon (Worf). Yet mules cannot go back and breed with horses or donkeys.
I do have to grant just like you mention in other hybrids that we don't know for a fact that K'Ehleyr didn't do something with Worfs, um, donated DNA to make Alexander.
Offspring not necessarily are infertile. Some ligers (hybrid cross between a male lion and a female tiger) have had a cub. Maybe they are an a exception, but we don't know if the hybrids we see (like B'Elanna) are also a exception.
Cybertwood, because species and genus and other classifications are, technically, artificial and there fore must adhere to the subjective rules. That would mean, if ligers are fertile and inter-species hybrids are not, then, by definition, we need to reclassify tigers and lions or create a new classification somewhere in between the ones we have.
EC Henry Could you please do a video on the theory that Lieutenant Tyler is actually the klingon Voq but after surgery to make him look human? Which is what the klingon woman meant when she told him he'd have to "lose everything", and why he has PTSD flashbacks to his cosmetic surgery (plus why he froze and didn't want to kill her when they met again)
Romulans and Vulcans are the same species - they came form the same planet
Yes they did! :)
They might been apart long enough for genetic drift to make them different species.
Vulcans and Romulans are only separated a few thousand years. Which is only a few dozen generations, given their long lifespans and high-k selection.
Nowhere near long enough to become different species, no matter how different their environments might be.
P Even if one of those environments was a nuked-out, irradiated husk? Vulcans got to the point that humanity's third World War never did.
@Espinoth ... Radiation doesn't magically (and rapidly) mutate organisms into new species the way comic books would have you believe. Indeed, it's a rather indiscriminate killer which would decimate all populations uniformly.
But it does seem possible that one or more factions in this ancient proto-Vulcan/proto-Romulan war used advanced bioweapons and/or medical technologies which effectively split or altered the survivors into divergent populations.
Perhaps Vulcan and Romulan races are both the result of something like the Human Eugenics Wars or the Angosian supersoldier program, albeit two different paths from their common origin. (Which would also help explain their superior physical and mental capacities when compared vs most other Star Trek races.)
I have zero problem agreeing that Kim Cardassian and Gul Dukat are the same species.
What?? How dare you... Marc Alaimo is a fantastic actor.
That's a horrible thing to say about Dukat. 😟
@@MrCordycep Hahaha! I was about to say, "How dare you insult Gul Skrain Dukat in such a manner!"
Oh come on, Dukat does not deserve this insult :P
@@christopherkelly4555 Yes, he IS a good actor. How that relates to my comment (which had nothing to do with the actor... I was talking about species) is beyond me.
Damn, those lightship flyby shots were gorgeous. :)
Spacedock sounds like a good candidate for a video...
I agree! Especially when shown in warp speeds, for some reason that sticks out for me. Considering this ship has no engines at all, but only sails like the old sailing ships of ours. I can see why Captain Sisko loved it to where he built a replica of it. Perhaps one day you'll post a wonderful video of this ship on your Spacedock channel.
I'd love to see those nautical bajoran ships available in STO.
Too bad a real lightship would need sails that are like a million miles across.
The Bajoran Lightship is another example of life imitating art. The Breakthrough Starshot initiative relies on a micro-form of basically the same technology:
breakthroughinitiatives.org/initiative/3
Don't forget that, according to TNG, the Bajoran civilization is much, much older than it appears (on the order of 500,000 years, much older than the First Republic mentioned in DS9, which is from 25,000 years prior).
Cardassians in the 2100s unearthed the burial vaults of their ancestors (known as the Hebitians). So they, too, also seem to have an ancient civilization that predates the modern era. Non-canon Star Charts even paints the Hebitian civilization as a starfaring one (probably contact with the ancient Bajorans then, at least), although I don't think that was the intent of the episode.
By coincidence or design, Star Trek has painted both the Cardassians and Bajorans as descended from ancient unknown civilizations, far older than any other races presented in Star Trek. It could be that Cardassia is particularly inhospitable to Bajorans and the ancient, ancient Bajorans genetically modified themselves (with Reptilian DNA?) in order to live on Cardassia. Especially if this is pre-Solar Sail era (Solar Sails trace back only about 800 years).
If ancient Bajora travelled in generation ships or maybe even as fast as half-impulse, Cardassia, as the next system over, seems the first major interstellar trip for them as a pre-warp species. Cardassians would have a vested interest in keeping their origins a secret, which brings to light the fact that they looted the Hebitian graves in the 22nd century (around the same time they were already known to be a warp species). But the military only seems to have gained control over the entire Cardassian Union during Gul Madred's childhood, after which they seemingly went to Bajor and started their unexplained occupation of a then-primitive and peaceful people.
Did they find something in the Hebitian vaults? Something they destroyed and then went to Bajor to continue destroying to keep secret?
Tim Thomason 🤔 very interesting
Dude. You just blew my mind. I'm really hoping whoever is in charge of the Star Trek books reads this and uses it as a basis for a new novel or series of novels. Yea, I know the novels aren't canon, but with nothing new coming out of the studios that's Prime Universe (no, I absolutely do not count Discovery as "Prime" universe...), it's about all we've got at the moment.
I'm sorry, why the hell do you hate Star Trek Online, it continues the ST story from after the death of the Romulan sun.
And, get better spelling.
Commander Neyo because it's trash and stupid guy, why don't u start reading the pocket now novels, that's the real continuation of the true story line, and as far as the Romulus blowing up, a lot of us trekkies feel like that's total bullshit and shouldn't be considered cannon or Roddenberry's vision
Subtitles came up as 'Kardashians and Bajorans are the same species.'
I LOL'd. 😁
G. Scott Taulbee : now THAT's a species that needs to stop breeding
Bajorans are far better looking and more moral.
wise_guy42
That's not saying much, as Cardassians are better looking and more moral than Kardashians, and the Cardassians were snake-faced genocidal assholes.
honestly, both cardashian and kardashians are equally evil.
But the Cardys at least had Garak, which is somewhat redeeming.
I think it's canon that Vulcans and Romulans are the same species. I think the ancient humanoids are the founders.. They Just eventually evolved the ability to shapeshift. First, the lead founder is played by the same actress who played the ancient humanoid (this means nothing on its own). The founders mentioned that they were once solids. They both have the ability to genetically modify other specie.
Patient Grasshopper Vulcans who didn't agree with Logic based society left in ships and went to another solar system and called the planet Romulus
@@DaraGaming42 it's called "those who march beneath the Raptor Wings"
I believe the founders are the most direct line from the ancient humanoids. The other species evolved differently like Neanderthals, Homo Sapiens, Devonians, Erectus etc come from the same genus. Even the Changelings were once solids.
That makes most Humanoids related. Bajorians and Cardassians can have fertile children because their planets may have had similar been seeded at similar times and thus may be more genetically similar.
I see why you're making that conclusion; the actress who played the ancient humanoid also played the female changeling who was the leader of the Founders and who signed the capitulation treaty on behalf of the Dominion. And the design of the Founders and the ancient humanoids is also quite similar. There are a lot of these design-related similarities in the Star Trek universe; for instance the Trills originally just as three vertical ridged in their face and the design that ended up being canon for the Trill was originally for another species, the Kriosians. They tested the original makeup for the Trill on the actress playing Dax and apparently did not like the result; so they ended up with the other design.
That's a very interesting theory. I like it!
Here's one fact: while Dukat was impersonating a Bajoran to manipulate the Kai, Solbor discovered his species from a DNA analysis.
Yes, but even with current earth technology I could tell you aren't a family member of mine with a DNA analysis, or break down your ancestral Make up from certain markers. You could say that hes of that Cardassian family.
That could be in the way we can detect Neanderthal DNA in modern humans. Neanderthals being a different but very related species. Bajorans and Cardassians could be different species in the manner that humans and Neanderthals are different species.
@@sammyrobbins6848 AFAIK, scientists today assume that Neanderthals and humans could interbreed with each other. If that's true, wouldn't that make them different subspecies of the same species? But yeah, this seems similar.
@@ab-wj8yg Except Kes herself said that Seska's blood had no known Bajoran factors. And the bone marrow transplant story was fake.
@@tarvoc746 no, Neanderthals aren't the same species as us.
The premise is wrong. Being able to procreate is not the definition of a species, it is just a generally consistent trait.
There are plenty of species on earth that can interbreed but are separate species.
Cardassians and Bajorans being able to interbreed does not prove them the same species. Yes they'd have to be a closely related species, but they're not the same species.
If the Bajorans evolved into Cardassians, that is speciation.
You forgot to mention the nail in the coffin; in VOY Seska's blood is taken and it's pointed out that the only difference between her and typical Bajorans is a single piece of missing DNA
Seska had been physically and genetically altered to look Bajoran. But I will admit the degree of change needed may be a lot less that was originally implied.
Also perhaps the smooth skin is a recent change not the scaly skin of the Cardassians - and cardassians are a regressive trait. They do seem physically and temperamentally very different. I supposed one could argue that all bajorans look Like Cardassians when they were cavemen and when the Celestial temple started monkeying around with them "evolved" them into modern Bajorans - when the influence of the prophets is removed they slowly revert back to their natural state of looking much less humanoid.
I like that idea as it could lead to some interesting discussions someone could find so very old wall painting showing cardassian like figures and there could be an argument that cardassian where here 1st - but they'd eventually realise the Bajorans had been "Uplifted" for some odd reason by the Wormhole aliens.
Whatever the arguments though there is likely more legit reasons to find connections between the two peoples than for the make up diversity in the Discovery Klingons (where they don't even share a skull shape in some cases)
She also gets pregnant from another space race but i think it was half human and I think she did it by stealing chakote's blood and used that to inpregnate herself so not a natural pregnancy
No her child was half Kazon, much to her consternation.
Kiyoshi Kirishima since Seska had been altered generically already, all breeding results are dubious at best. We don't know what an unaltered Cardasian would do.
Lol yeah, the kid was originally supposed to be half human but everyone hated the Kazon so they re-wrote it so they could cut all ties with those characters.
What's the least popular Bajoran TV show?
Keeping Up With The Cardassians!
InventorZahran 327 boooo
LOL!!! I did in fact laugh out loud...
I guess their favorite TV show was "Emissary"...;-)
TeeHee-ous!!!! :D
No no, that was their favorite program, filmed live on location by bajoran spies for the sake of intel
You'd think some scientist would have figured it out (at the very least Bashir). It's not the sort of thing that could be kept secret throughout the course of DS9.
well it depend if cardasia want her dna to be freely know to none cardasian, which we can say its not the case. dna lead to bio weapons
Well, here's the thing, when population groups are issolated and conditions change evolution can work rapidly. It'd be more accurate to say Cardassians and Bajorans have an incredible recent ancestor.
On the other hand, you had plenty of Cardassians wandering around Terok Nor leaving fingerprints, skin cells, blood, sweat and all manner of detritus. All Bashir would need to do is clean up after one of the times Garak got injured.
And if there was a sulture of "Personal Body Servants", like seems to be the case with Dukat, then the Bajoran resistance was able to collect as much Cardassian DNA as they wanted.
even if you collect it, you do realize for political reason you can not reveal you have it? because if you collect it for weapon you are not going to tell them oh you know we have your dna. Having the dna and give it to the medical community are 2 different things
and thats not the only time the writers in a show fuck up the cannon? because they are generic writers and now nothign about show?
writers
spy in voyager finally discovered by doctor
the write generic things like that
you could take their script and put it in many other moovies. you can also have made a western with people lost and trying to go to civilization, and the Caucasian would have been an apachi spy lol
Vulcans and Romulans are the same species
Originally yes, but Romulans have interbred with Remans, which is why they have forehead ridges now, which Vulcans do not,
Ow i was thinking it came fron their negative attitude.
I thought they were just deep in thought planning some subterfuge :P
generations of holding that same expression could have a similar result.
The nemesis Remans are after a bit of a rewrite/reboot with the nosferatu look, blame that on the director.and the wierd nosferatu Remans are supposed be only the way the radiation poisoned miners look. Regular Remans were the native inhabitants of both planets, they were conquered and interbred with Romulans. a small group of them were enslaved and forced to mine for dilithium on Remus.
Could be the Bajorians that crashed on Cardassia interbreed early on with Cardassian natives. Like how many humans today have remnants of Neanderthal DNA.
They could have also used advanced medical technology to help breed initially.
That's a good idea - though it still leads us down the road that they were the same species to begin with. Unless Bajoran or Cardassian medicine was good enough at the time to modify their genomes to interbreed.
I think it would have to have been some kind of advanced medical tech. If i recall correctly the Cardassians were peace loving people at one point in their history before the Military took over their culture. So they might have been very open to the idea of interbreeding. I just dont think a few thousand years is enough time to allow for such drastic differences between Bajorian and Cardassians, Given Cardassians are "reptile like" and Bajorians are i'd have to assume warm blooded. Unless the Bajorians on Cardassia embarked on hard core Eugenics to change themselves. But I'm honestly just thinking out loud here.
Renee Cousins I would pay money to see a episode that explored the Cardassian spin on being descendents of Bajorians. I think people like Dukat would have mental break downs.
Renee Cousins Star Trek: Deep Space Nine, Season 8, episode 12: "Ancestry".
Romulans and Vulkans have the same ancestors, and so your theory sounds legit :-)
David Lanzendörfer yes , 5000 years ago during a big nuclear war , Vulcans gave up space technology and embraced suppression of emotion and pure logic , Vulcans who disagreed with Surak left Vulcan in FTL ships , the Vulcans sent the next 1500 years becoming peacefully and the Vulcans on Rumlan developed different and became more warriors like
And Remans also have the same ancestry as Romulans and Vulcans, IIRC.
@@freshoutofcrabs With a little gargoyle DNA mixed in for that " scare the living crap out of you on a dimly lit starship" effect!
Literally always here for a deep dive analysis of anything ST: DS9 related. Great video! Subscribed!
When I read the title the solar sail ship did spring to mind and it makes a lot of sense that both Bajorans and Cardassians would share a common ancestry. This is the most likely scenario for our meeting "aliens" in the future once we send human colonies out amongst the stars and speciation, cultural deviation and artificial adaption come into play. Adapting ourselves to suit our new homes is a darn sight easier than terraforming a planet, though I would still expect us to break down rocky astral bodies to make rotating habitats tailored to our needs rather than remaining planet-bound.
Keep up the good work, man!
The Prophets did it!
Anyway Cardassians weren't always their name. They were known as Hebitians.
Interesting thing Sisko said the Prophets claimed they were of Bajor. The Pah-Wraiths chose Dukat as their Emissary instead of Kai Winn.
I think (no proof ) that Bajorans and Cardassians are both daughter races descended from Hebitians.
Kai Winn wasn't as open to their teachings as we'd think, especially as illustrated by the end of the series. Dukat on the other had was a broken but otherwise capable individual who could be manipulated to serve their purpose
That's actually not a bad one, either. Given what the prophets could do, and the fact that they already had to alter time to make sure that things happened.
Pure chance is just too unlikely. that much phenotypical variation without speciation? That seems ridiculous.
InfernosReaper Dukat would do anything for someone to love him. His greatest flaw was that he demanded love and to be told that he was loved.
Thank you for giving voice to something I'd been kicking around in my own mind for years. This really pulled it all together. Well done!
You kind of blew my mind already a minute into it when you made me realize that hybrids are not usually conceived naturally. Great theory and video.
Was there ever anything even hinted, that Spock's conception required medical intervention? I thought that was only retconned into Enterprise with Trip & T'Pol.
This is a really neat explanation! Even if we can't test your hypothesis to make it a theory, it's really fun to think about the nitty gritty of Star Trek lore like this.
Even today in the 21st century, the definition of the word "species" is a somewhat ambiguous. Horses and donkeys can interbreed to produce mules, although mules themselves can't reproduce.
Domestic cats and servals can interbreed to produce Savannahs,. And if a Savannah is female, it can reproduce! Even though domestic cats and servals are not only classified as different species, they are entirely different genuses!
On the flipside, wolves and domestic dogs were classified as separate species until very recently. Nowadays, domestic dogs are recognized as being a subspecies of wolf.
Perhaps Cardassians and Bajorans are both the same species, but different subspecies, which accounts for their cosmetic differences. Or maybe they are separate species, but share a common ancestor recently enough that their DNA is still compatible.
+Nathan Warford. Excellent info, thanks for that.
Fascinating about the Cats and Servals, I'm going to read up on that now.
From Wikipedia: "As of October 2002, there had been only 60 documented cases of mules birthing foals since 1527."
Mules are only statistically infertile.
F1 Savannah cats are not unusual in the female fertility thing. In just about any hybridization, if any offspring is fertile it'll be a female. You usually have to breed one of the parent species into the hybrid line for several generations before you start getting fertile males.
Donkeys are horses, a different species, but still horses
@@davidleesfunandamazingvide2759 Might as well call zebras horses.
I'm not entirely sure about your criteria here.
Horses and Donkeys can have offspring, as can Lions and Tigers.
Neither are considered the same species, and the offspring is sterile, but it still shows that you don't technically have to be the same species to be able to naturally produce offspring.
Within our own genetic lineage it's also known that Neanderthal and modern humans were compatible in some way. In fact, given the genetic evidence they're MORE compatible than the prior examples, since the genetic elements suggests those hybrid offspring couldn't have all been sterile.
And yet, we consider neanderthals a different species; A closely related one, yes, but still their own species...
What all this suggests perhaps, is that Cardassians and Bajorans are closely related, but it's perhaps a bit too far to say they are the same species...
Agreed. I think it's about reproduction within a Genus, not speices. Various species of wolves can all mate with dogs, and their offspring are fertile.
This shows they are NOT the same species as in either case. For us to have Neanderthal DNA, then we must be the same species.
All the humanoids in the Star Trek Milky Way Galaxy are the same species. They were intelligently designed to be so.
From Wikipedia on species, "A species is often defined as the largest group of organisms in which two individuals can produce fertile offspring" But we're not sure if half baj/car is fertile or not so they could still not be the same species.
However, you have to be the same species to interbreed and make offspring that can have babies. Mules and ligers have no offspring.
Good catch on this video. I had this in my mind years ago when they report in the same ancient ship episode that an ancient Bajoran ship had been found on Cardassia.
Interesting theory, but I wonder if it is possible to connect the prophets/pah-wraiths to it...like could the proto-Cardassians were pah-wraiths followers and that why they lost contact with the homeworld. That could be why Dukat was picked to be the champion to the pah-wraiths
amazedsatsuma I was wondering about that.
amazedsatsuma that's a very interesting idea, fits well wit the theory of cardasia & cardasians being a lost ancient bajoren colony, possibly being cut off from the homeworld cause they were basically devil worshippers
Richard Thomas
Or maybe Cardassia was a kind of religious "Botany Bay", or to borrow from StarCraft, Cardassia was Bajor's Koprulu Sector where they sent the criminals, degenerates and other undesirables from proper Bajoran culture. If ancient Bajor was as fundamentally religious as modern Bajor, a large number of those exiled "colonists" would have been heretics who turned from the Prophets to follow the Pah Wraiths, and thus they would have held much of the power in whatever new government was established on the prison world.
I don't know if it was ever established that the tachyon eddies that flow from Bajor to Cardassia also flow back from Cardassia to Bajor, but I'd guess that if a return trip were possible, the Bajoran guards would have found a way to permanently strand the exiles. Given the evidence we have, though, we can assume the eddies only go one way so it wouldn't have been difficult to load up a number of exiles onto a solar ship and send them into the eddies, never to be heard from again and eventually forgotten for some reason.
Dargonhuman yeah exactly, i was thinking about writing that also, cause i was thinking of a situation kinda like Australia, the British empire used to send their criminals there to be exiled, i definitely agree wit u
Maybe the pah raiths believe bajorans should be allowed to develop and become a great space faring race. Perhaps the whole conflict with the worm hole aliens is that they want to hold the bajorans back so they can continue to be worshipped. If that's the case it would explain why the worm hole aliens chose a human so that the bajorans would continue to see other races as worthy of worship and not look to develop their own culture towards science but the pah raiths chose one of the bajorans who was descended from those who had the courage to face the unknown and become something more.
Great video. On one hand, neighboring species may have a common microbial ancestor, which would lead to significant biocompatibility and might explain it if you squint. The common space-faring ancestor is much more dramatically compelling, and one more ambitious might be able to place a time for that far ancient contact, approximating the number of generations necessary for such dramatic genetic drift. Lastly, there’s a chance Cardassian’s posses a unique ability to procreation with external races, which explains how such a hybrid was born to a Kazon.
Yes the really old precursor races are a pretty good explanation here,, It had slipped my mind but now it comes up again i'm remembering the Chronology video I was watching a few weeks back that did mention this. Such issues do cross my mind sometimes there is a lot of little hints about it scattered around - especially in TNG - Some of these civilisations would be older than the Iconians even.
_> neighboring species may have a common microbial ancestor, which would lead to significant biocompatibility and might explain it_
And yet, humans seem to have trouble creating offspring with insects.
It's just because they either can't fit you, or they want to bite your head off while you're doing it.
When I saw the title of this video I thought you were nuts but, damn, you make one hell of a case. Nice work. :)
I'm not even a big Star Trek fan but I was still fascinated and entertained by this. Good job
This definitely sounds like something that could happen, after all, we already have the Vulcans and Romulans having evolved from the same species and were split into two species, so it's possible that the Bajorans and Cardassians have a similar relationship, but unlike with Vulcan and Romulus, the history of the relationship between the two species was lost to time, likely though war or some great cataclysm that occurred on one or both planets to sever the connection between the two species for centuries.
A bit like Homo Erectus evovled into Homo Neanderthal and Homo Sapiens. :)
Maybe it's a peculiar characteristic of Cardassians that they can naturally breed with many humanoid races; Seska also accidentally conceived a child with a Khazon. Also explains why they're one of the few Star Trek races that seem to regularly seek out sexual relations outside their own species.
I'd love to see a more detailed examination of this sometime. There are definitely a lot of fun possibilities here :)
also consider that since the humanoid aliens who put the seeds that developed most life to look like them the dna structure is similar needing no help in some cases and more in others
it probably is a case by case basis, as for all we know cardassians and bajorans might simply be a closer match because of location or similar condition on there planet when they were first evolving as things change over time its hard to say its an interesting idea but i would say we would need more info to make any major claims
From the Templin Institute, I learned that ancient Cardassian, before it became expansionist, was very much like the Bajoran culture it conquered. That would also be an indication they are the same species.
Personally, I like the idea.
Not "ancient": as recently as a few decades to a century.
When Picard is being interrogated by Gul Madred ("There are 4 lights!") it's revealed that the Cardassians had a Rich religious culture, full of Peace and Philosophers.
A Lot like the Bajorans.
Not many other species in Star Trek (sadly) are both religious And peaceful.
So are Kazons also the same species as the Bajorins since Sheska a Caradassian in Voyager had a half breed child with a Kazon maeg?
Mike S she had been altered generically. Not a reliable source of facts for her species.
That seemed like it was a deliberate pregnancy so no telling what kind of fertility boosters she was using.
Voyager is non-canon.
@@tomstokoe5660 lol
This is something that's been floating around in my head for the past few weeks as I'm watching DS9 for the first time, and I'm glad that I'm not the only one that's thought of it since that means I'm not thinking of something crazy!
You make a very logical and compelling argument! I shall subscribe to learn more!
Interbreeding between species in the Star Trek universe is one of those things requiring a willing suspension of disbelief. Perforce, I just tune out the issue.
What species are the Kardassians? Which species have such large posteriors?
Very cool theory and video!
I think you're on to something here... I never thought about this but it has given me a-lot to think about. Thank you for this video!
I think the largest point against this theory that I can think of is that Bajorans are warm blooded, and prefer an atmospheric temperature similar to humans in the 20C range, where cardasians are cold blooded and enjoy the heat, with a typical room temperature of 30+C
It has never been stated that cardassians are cold blooded, just that they don't like the cold. The reason for this is likely based on the fact that the average temperature on Cardassia is in the 30+C range while the average temperature on Bajor is in the 20C range. Both the Bajorans and the Cardassians warm-blooded, because the only thing that being warm-blooded means is that one's body has a way to regulate its temperature. There is nothing shown in the show which would support a claim that Cardassians do not have an internal mechanism to regulate their body temperature.
Perhaps ancient Bajorans that settled Cardassia had to add extra DNA to their population using native species like reptiles to reduce the effect of inbreeding (!) or to withstand the warmer climate better. Or perhaps they originated from tropical parts of Bajor which have since cooled down with climate change!!
What about Belana Tourez; Voyager (sorry for incorrect spelling) and then her daughter with Tom Paris? Admittedly very rare but from her background story it looks like she was conceived naturally.
Belana Torres is half human
can a mule and a horse have offspring?
worf also had a child with a half-human half-clinton woman......
Mules can't reproduce because they have a odd amount of chromosomes. Sometimes females can reproduce.
so if a mule and a horse cannot have offspring....but a half-klingon and a full human can(torres and paris), and a half-klingon and a full klingon can(worf and alexanders mother), i think that demonstrates klingons and humans are the same species....
seems to work the same with humans and betazoids....
so i suspect all of the humanoid races are actually just one species.
sabin97 do you realy know so little about StarTrek? memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/The_Chase_(episode)
This is what I call a good fan theory. It takes the pieces that are right there and no one thought to put them together. Thank you.
Surprisingly plausible theory! Well done! And even debunked the ancillary question of whether Klingons/ Vulcans/ Humans are the same species. It also adds an additional layer of tragedy and irony to the whole Cardassian-Bajoran situation.
I would say the differences are to profound to develop in such a short timeframe. Evolution is a very slow process that needs a lot more than even 1000 years to create the differences in physiology Cardassians and Bajorians have. Like Cardassians preference and resistance to extreme heat.
BobHerzog1962 Maybeit was through genitic theoropy
Bajorans apparently had an advanced civilization 500,000 years ago, but nothing was mentioned of space travel.
The only problem with your argument is the Klingon Romulan offspring on the prison planet had no medical help interbreeding that we were aware of. It had the same if not less medical chance of interference than Dukat's kids since they were on a prison planet with obviously limited medical resources.
There's another issue with your species claim that Bjorans and Cardacians are the same species. Julian frequently commented he had limited information on Cardacian medical history when dealing with Garak's faulty implant making the possibility that they are the same species even less likely since if they were the access Julian had to Bjorian medical data should have been enough.
but this julian, I'm sure, doesn't *know* that they are related
thetexmaster they could be pretty different biochemically enough to render bajoran biochemistry useless
It is also the Klingon/romulan child that makes me question this theory.
Wasn't there a STNG episode were Ltc. Wolf (Klingon) refuse to save a Romulan by Klingon/Romulan blood transfusion. Supposedly both species blood is compatible.
Also what about be'lanna torres. I doubt her parents seeked medical help.
I'm a 50 year old man. I've avoided ds9 like a plague. I'm a die hard star trek fan. I've seen hundreds of ds9 fan videos. THIS ONE. Has made me attempt to embrace the series, as a whole. And im now planning the binge it. The passion rings true. As unimportant the particulars seem to be, I smell a kindred spirit. And only now, am giving it its due.
Awesome content! I agree with you on this one ☝️
Plot hole sounds more likely.
Cardassian/Bajoran hybrids aren't the only hybrids in Star Trek known to be possible naturally. Deanna Troi gave birth to a human/Betazoid/alien hybrid in "The Child" (TNG). B'Elanna Torres gave birth to Miral Paris, a human/Klingon hybrid that she clearly wasn't expecting and didn't want. Samantha Wildman gave birth to Naomi Wildman, a human/Ktarian hybrid that her husband on DS9, Greskrendtregk, knew nothing of. Are these all the same "species"? EC Henry, I love your videos, but your theory here is bunk.
B'elanna was only half klingon and so the baby was 3/4 human and only1/3 klingon which made the DNA more compatible.
Ooh, Naomi Wildman is a good example of a hybrid - wasn't there some kind of issues when she was born? I can't recall, it's been awhile since I watched that episode.
Yeah. The Ktarian horns on Naomi's head were cutting up her mother's birth canal, so they had to beam the baby out.
Ktarian are so close to human physically they're probably just human descendants. Especially since know preservers seeded other planets in the Alpha quadrant with advanced life. similar to the Mugato's from TOS that were apparently ape descendants.
The theory isn't bunk from a scientific point of view in the real world. We don't know if the hybrids are fertile--if they are, they are the same biological species and this theory is correct scientifically; if they aren't fertile, then this theory is debunked. Problem is, Star Trek is a Sci-Fi TV show, and doesn't necessarily correctly follow real world biological science.
Where did you get the lightship flyby clips from? They were not in the DS9 episode
I enjoyed that a very interesting idea good work
I thought the Cardassians were originally known as the Hebitians, until their military took over, very much like Stalin in Russia (Stalin=Steel).
I always room it the hebutians were the name of that particular civilization and Cardassian was always the more generic name of the spieces.
I love how we, the fans, take a bunch of random claims, written by random writers for random episodes, and pretend that there is a scheme, a motive and a logic sense.
Some of us went that far trying to justify Riker's "Warp 13" :D
Great job!
One other thing of note, although it is admittedly a stretch. I never bought the scene in the _DS9_ finale where the Pah-wraiths magically reversed Dukat's Bajoran disguise. It's more believable to me if they are the _same species!_
On Voyager sessca claimed that she had chakotay's child in her . Then she claimed to have the kazon leader's child, she was pregnant with a hybrid child.
So it could be that Cardassians might be able to breed naturally with a number of different species.
A better and more realistic theory, in one sentence, than everything in the entire video :-D
Nani?
Maybe Cardassian DNA is really strong, and they'd be able to just as easily reproduce with the other humanoids mentioned in the video. But, I have to say, the idea of them being the same species would be a REALLY cool twist, and I'd love to see them pin a Deep Space Nine movie around it.
How the hell do you come up with amazing videos like this all the time?
Kind of like the Sona and Bahku....
Yeah, but it's implied that the Sona look different due to the genetic manipulation necessary to keep them young without the metaphasic radiation.
There’s just one problem with the theory. In the Voyager episode “State of Flux”, The Doctor discovers that Seska was missing “all the known Bajoran blood factors” and therefore could not be Bajoran, but was actually Cardassian. Hmmm.
don't you _prove_ his theory with that and _debunk_ the commenters'?
Feanor of Sunspear Oh, yes. Possibly. Perhaps I need more science lessons.
Not necessarily. We know that the Cardassians altered their spies to pass as other species, including humans and Bajorans. It seems quite probable that Seska was a spy of some description or another.
wise_guy42 Yeah, it’s implied Seska was a spy, but she was also totally nuts, so who knows. Does it scientifically make any difference... I just remember that line “lacking all known Bajoran blood factors” and thought it might prove/disprove the theory either way. But maybe my science isn’t great.
My comment was directed towards Feanor's reply. I was actually supporting your statement.
i dont remember the episode with the sail ship. Which one is it?
Well thought out.
Diferent species can have offsprings but the born steril without tha capability to have descedents so i think you are wrong
Questão olavo Klingons and humans can bare non -sterile offspring so can Vulcans and Humans and the Romulans have been know to breed with other species that were held captive by them .
with the use of medical tecnology
Questão olavo That doesn’t explain Miral Paris or Alexander Rochenko, both of whom were unplanned conceptions
Eh, I don't know. The answer to me is less about imagination and more about the cold hard facts of the writers' intentions but you do make a good point and if it were to become official cannon I don't see how it would disrupt the 'Trek continuum and it might actually bolster the statements Star Trek has always tried to make about species(racial) equality, tolerance, understanding, and forgiveness.
This is an awesome thing you got going
At first, when I read the title I thought...omg...what an idea....but after watching this vid I have to admit, u have a point ^^
Didn’t all the humanoid races in Star Trek originate from the seeding from one race anyway.
You are really pulling this out of your @#$$%
Usually these sorts of theories are total balls, loosely sewn together, but this is a brilliantly thought out theory and I can totally get behind it! 🖖
Basically all the humanoids in Star Trek are the same species. They can all interbreed and produce fertile offsping. Humans and Klingons are actually the same species, from a biological standpoint.
There is a TNG episode that explains why that is, because some ancient race seeded their own DNA on different planets. They are just different races (geographically separated populations that have developed distinct traits).
Did you watch the video? That was mentioned pretty close to the beginning. He was theorizing outside of that episodes' apparent canon, unless I missed something.
BAJORAN LIVES MATTER
Cardassian lives matter!!
Borg Lives Matter
luv the TARDIS. :)
Tholian lives matter !!
No they don't. #Cardassiadidnothingwrong
Horses can produce offspring with Zebras and Donkeys. Are horses the same species as Donkeys and Zebras? No. Not at all. The simple ability to produce offspring does not make two different animals the same species. Nice "theory" tho...
Xaro Xhoan Daxos they have to produce fertile offspring.
Well said. Enjoyed.
Interesting theory. I had the same thought at some point.
Interesting theory, but I think unlikely. 700-900 years are not nearly enough for a species to change it's phenotype that dramatically (don't quote me on this, I'm no scientist).
Also, the development of the New Bajoran/Cardassian technology must have been fast if that was the case. Even faster than it was already described.
I was looking at some similar points, yes.
Makara or as some one else has said the bajorans or the cardassians could have created and lost warp technology over and over again and their civilisations are millions of years old
If they had that long to diverge however, they would no longer be compatible. Still, it could make for some interesting storytelling devices. It would be nice to know more about the history of Bajor.
wise_guy42 homo sapiens and Neanderthals seperated 800,000 years apart and yet were still interbreeding only 40000 years ago and we look quite different. So not quite millions of years but certainly with plausiblity for cardassians and bajorans
Neanderthals and Homo Sapiens developed in the same environment and alongside one another, and eventually blended away into current humans. Bajorans and Cardassians were in starkly different environments and no longer alongside one another. The distinctions in their biological systems alone should be enough to indicate what ought to be incompatibility. Most of the hybridization within the Star Trek universe doesn't honestly make sense from a scientific perspective. It does still result in thought provoking and compelling stories.
Why don't you add the Kardashians in this video for good measure.
lol...maybe because after so much plastic surgery no one can tell what planet those hoes are even from...?
why add trash to a delightfull meal?
Good video! I thought so too!
Sounds plausible, and it's very well argued for; I know *I'm* impressed with this vid.
Nothing so beautiful as Kira is a Cardassian.
alternate universe kira.
I really love your videos, but in this case most of your arguments are based upon poor writing. Enterprise was at least very liberal to canon. In my opinion nobody in the 60s was thining about spock's conception. The same thing is with Sela... She was born in the time of war and i am sure that in her case was no medical "help" possible. If human-romulan hybrid is possible then it's very probable that human-vulcan hybrid should also be possible...
Sela's father was a high-ranking Romulan officer who could have easily arranged for the medical procedure required to produce offspring with Tasha. Not to mention that these procedures are probably commonplace and relatively simple, considering that combining Human and Vulcan DNA was apparently possible in a comparatively primitive starship sickbay.
I understand everything what you are trying to say but I am still not convinced :) Anyway keep up the good work :) almost everytme I watch your ST related video I think to myslef "I knew I am not the only one who think that" :)
Given how biology actually works it ridiculous to assume Vulcans and Humans could interbreed without the help of some genetic engineering.
The star trek books of the 70's and 80's did talk about spock being genetically manipulated.
Copper based blood vs iron based blood. Its going to take some tinkering to get that combo to work.
Your onto something EC Henry. It's a very good theory that only lends to the irony of the Cardassian-Bajoran relations. Here is another theory I came up with that adds to your theory. The ancient Bajorans were a highly advance race that evolved even further into what we know as the Prophets. I like the theory of the ancient Bajorans splitting off there population into two different paths that resulted into the development of the Cardassian race and the Bajoran race. They are the same species that evolved differently because the Cardassians evolved on a harsh planet Cardasia that required them to have a more defensive biology, where as the Bajorans evolved on a paradise planet Bajor which is why the Bajorans were a bit naive when it came to the arrival of the Cardassians onto there planet which would eventually lead to the Occupation of Bajor. The counter-part to the Prophets are the Pah-wraith, which I believe are evolved ancient Bajorans as well, just like the Prophets. This is further supported in which they communicate with humonoids in the same ways as the Prophets. My conclusion is the Pah-wraith are the faction that split off to the Cardassian territory of space. The Pah-wraith should be considered the Gods of Cardassians, just like the way the Prophets are considered the Gods of Bajorians, but they are not, because unlike the the Prophets being around for the Bajorians, the Pah-wraith were imprisoned by the Prophets. This has lead to everything we know about the Cardassians and Bajorians relationship and beliefs and lack thereof and the reality of it being more closely tethered than either race realizes, with the exception of the Prophets and Pah-wraith themselves. This age-old secret fact wasn't even revealed to the Emissary Captain Sisko, but atleast Gul Dukat figured out that the Prophets and Pah-wraith are connected since he believes it would take a Pah-wraith to defeat a Prophets as in, it takes one of them to beat one of them.
It's so weird that i caught this one now, i always liked that episode and the ship that was brought on by Sisko to see if it how it works.
Really one of my favorite episodes of DS9
I like your theory but I don't think the interbreeding thing counts as "evidence" in trek, after all we have half klingon half humans in TNG.
that were created per genetical modifying
I'm referring to Worf's wife K'Ehleyr, she was natural born half human half klingon.
Geordi La Forge no she wasnt. Infact the clip where she said she wasnt is in the video.
Apologies I stand corrected, good stuff.
Geordi La Forge thats alrightyy
Or, we use the human word "species" because it's how we best understand it, but, it's describing something completely different, that we don't properly comprehend in human terms.
Good episode idea. .
That’ll be a proper trek story. Like something out of Insurrection.
Nice work
This discussion reminds me of something from the Old Republic Game. The game has a storyline on the Planet Voss, that if you play it on the Republic side, reveals that the two species on the planet, the Voss, and Gormak species, were once the same people and were corrupted by the Dark side and split into two races. It's also revealed on the Imperial Side that the Jedi were somewhat responsible for this to happen, during their war with the ancient Sith Empire, that they taught the Voss to use the force and it resulted in some of them becoming corrupted beings, ergo, the Gormak.
wasnt this explaine din the solar sail of siscos epissode?
I'm afraid i Don't know how to say it in English so i'll speak in french:
Vous avez tout à fait raison sur la définition d'espèce, si elles peuvent s'hybrider naturellement et que leurs enfants sont fertiles, alors , c'est la même espèce, malgré les éventuelles différences physiques. Vôtre théorie quand à la création de Cardacia est tout à fait plausible mais le problème, c'est que c'est ce genre de phénomène (isolement de 2 groupes d'une même espèces) qui amène à une spéciation, la distinction d'une en deux espèces différentes parce qu'elle ne peuvent pas se reproduire naturellement. De plus, on ne sait pas si ces enfants sont fertiles mais ça c'est faute d'informations. Mais il se peut qu'ils soient encore compatible, même après tant d'années. En tout cas, vôtre théorie est excellente et repose sur des bases solides et plausibles.
Sory for having spoke in French. Great video!
Fascinating! Next time I'm playing poker with Gul Evek I'm going to call him Bajoran and watch him flip his lid!
Speciation on Earth isn't as simple as whether or not interbreeding can produce fertile offspring (see Wolf/Dog hybrids and ring species) but it's not a bad approximation. The only hitch I see in your reasoning is Alexander Rozhenko, the son of Worf and a human/Klingon hybrid woman, K'Ehleyr. As you note, she says her birth required intervention, but Alexander was conceived naturally, accidentally even. I won't draw any conclusions, but it's worth considering.
As the mother had already been "altered" in utero or pre conception i think that would be a bad example as K'Ehleyr is not "naturally" breed.
To be fair, Janeways situation was not a typical Starfleet assignment. She was in an area of complete unknowns where she was either attacked on sight or traveling in space where the Federation had no diplomatic pressense and had to deal with many restrictions of local powers, provided they were not hostile. Archer on Enterprise has help from locals on many occasions due to the Vulcans, Tellerites and Andorans. Janeway had no such help, only the kind she managed to befriend herself and even those were shaky at best. Her only help was from Nelix who knew the basics. Janeways biggest hurdle was when they got into it with Species 8472 and the Borg. Also don't forget the Hirogen that managed to capture Voyager and when things were early on, Seska and the Kazon taking voyager as well. She was also able to break a record for first contacts and distance explored/traveled in one ship, including the first ship to enter fluidic space. She had more run ins with temporal related situations and spent the longest amount of time in a different time. Also the most interactions with 29th century federation including a temporal bomb. Don't for get the damn time ship that as running around wiping species out during the year of hell. Janeway had more going on then all previous captains before her in the previous series.
You make a compelling case.
You're on to something there buddy 👍👍
good point sir
I have no idea what to think, but it’s still a nice video.
I've actually never thought about this, very strong argument for Cardassians and Bajorans being a single species.
It would seem that Bajorans and Humans could mate, we know Klingons and Romulans can mate, plus remember when Worf refused to give blood to a Romulan to save his life? Also Romulans and Vulcans are the same species. Betazoids and Humans are compatible with Deanna being proof of that too. Good video