Cantonese VS Mandarin: Why I Chose ONE For My TRILINGUAL Kids (REGRETS Revealed!)
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- Äas pĆidĂĄn 22. 05. 2024
- Raising a bilingual/ trilingual child but not sure whether to speak to them in the LINGUA FRANCA or local DIALECT? Here are THREE questions you must ask yourself to avoid making a decision you'll regret!
Why listen to a woman on the internet? I am a mum dedicated to raising two trilingual children, in addition to being a professional, certified translator and language instructor with a degree from Cambridge University. My book Bilingual and Trilingual Parenting 101 has also hepled thousands of readers worldwide.
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Thank you so much for everyone's comments! I can see that many of you have strong views on this subject, and I'm so happy to have created a space for this discussion! Apologies for not responding to every comment individually due to the volume, but here are a few points I'd like to make:
1) Many of you pointed out that Cantonese is not a dialect as such. Thank you for raising this point. Some of you pointed out that Catalan is not a dialect but a language in its own right. I apologise for not choosing my words more carefully - please bear in mind that I use the word "dialect" very loosely in this video to make the content more accessible, but basically, I mean the choice between a dominant language and a less dominant language; the specifics will vary depending on the country etc. And I really, really need to emphasise one point: I never mean to imply that one language is superior or inferior to another!
2) In the context of the Chinese language, I still maintain that I see the value of Mandarin as a lingua franca. People can have multiple identities - while I identify as a Hong Konger to an extent, I also embrace a broader identity as a ćäșș/ èŻäșș ïŒa person of Chinese descent) when I talk to ćäșș/ èŻäșș from other parts of the world which I'm able to do by speaking Mandarin, a language we have in common irrespective of our backgrounds. So, I do see immense value in that. Also, in terms of reading and writing, I just want to quickly explain why reading in Cantonese isn't a straightforward matter: the difference between ćŁèȘ and æžéąèȘ means that when you open, let's say, a children's storybook that's written in Traditional Chinese and read it aloud with your child, it will not sound like how you talk in real life at all. That's what I meant when I said in the video that reading and writing can be complicated in Cantonese.
3) I just want to reiterate that I am not a linguistics expert! My whole channel is about making engaging and helpful content from a parent's perspective, specifically as someone actively raising trilingual children. I never studied linguistics (I have a BA degree in History of Art from Cambridge); while I do have qualifications in language teaching (a postgraduate certificate from SOAS), interpreting (Level 3 Community Interpreting), and translation (Diploma in Translation, a master' degree level qualification here in the UK), I never studied linguistics formally so, please forgive me if I haven't used the correct terminology in my videos. I really appreciate it when my viewers, who are far more knowledgeable than I am, share their knowledge and insights in the comments. Thank you so much! While I'll strive to educate myself and make my content better and better in the future, this channel will always primarily be aimed at a general audience and be based on my perspective as a parent rather than an academic expert.
4) Thank you to all of you who shared your experience in relation to the lingua franca vs dialect debate in the context of other languages (Arabic, Urdu etc) - I'm so grateful to you for sharing your knowledge and experience! It really serves to highlight our relevant this subject is to so many of us.
Thank you all for your incredible support!!!
It's a bit sad to see that you decided to not pass on your own culture and chose to not to talk to your own child in your own mother tongue just for that child to get more jobs oportunities in an uncertain future situation (as if it wouldn't be valuable enough to speak cantonese, russian and english). I don't find that being pragmatic, just capitalistic. Speaking to your child in a language other than your native one must feel so artificial deep down... You mention all your qualifications, so I was a bit surprised when you said that catalan or cantonese are dialects, or when you spoke of languages in terms of usefulness... I thought you were familiar with sociolinguistics. Cantonese is not a dialect of chinese, and neither is catalan of spanish. They are languages on their own in a situation of diglossia. Despite this, catalan is the lingua franca, spoken and written, of Catalonia, used in schools, universities, the street and at homes. And it's also spoken and written in the Balearic Islands, Valencian Country, and Andorra. It comes from latin the same way italian, french or portuguese do, the only difference is that Spanish was forced upon the aforementioned territories. The same way Mandarin was forced in Cantonese-speaking territories, while no written standard of the language is created. It's a question of linguistic politics, and with your choice you are contributing to keep that political diglossia for Cantonese with less prestige and perceived "usefulness" than Mandarin. The fact that you value Mandarin for being useful to communicate with your cousin is a good example: you don't even consider that in a more normal linguistic situation where two equally important languages are spoken within a family, you would have learned Shanghanese and your cousin Cantonese in order to create that communication bridge within your particular family, rather than a foreign language.
I am definitely a âcultural defenderâ being a linguistics nerd, language diversity is the most important thing to me. I find it really sad to see people leave their native tongues for assimilation into the wider culture, e.g. Chinese âdialectsâ shrinking year by year, or Punjabis in Pakistan switching to Urdu or English.
My motherâs familyâs dialect of Hyderabadi Urdu is something that is very close to my heart, so I make sure to use it. Iâll definitely pass it on to my children.
Thank you for sharing your insights!!
I'm from that part of southern France that was northern Catalonia and the Catalan language has been MASSACRED here by the French.
Of course I think it's most important to teach one's mother tongue to their children.
I also think southern Chinese languages are treasures and I never stop at defending them, even with Chinese that seem ready to abandon them in favour of the most bland and impoverished Mandarin.
I remember a Wenzhou guy in Paris, one night a conversation ended with him complaining his parents had taught him their useless Wenzhounese instead of the more prestigious and useful Mandarin. Another Wenzhou girl once said that when she went to China she met with young Chinese her age that would compliment her on speaking Wenzhou so well, unlike them, but when her brother had a baby I couldn't help but notice she would talk to the baby in Mandarin, as it's the most normal thing everyone has agreed to do.
I remember another CZcams video that had a lot of people react some time ago. A woman is interviewed in Malaysia, she speaks Hokkien. A child comes and she interrupts briefly to adress the child in Mandarin, then switches back to the interview in Hokkien.
Another time in the Chinese neighbourhood, I overheard a conversation between 2 Cantonese grandmas with their grandchildren. "Kids these days, they don't speak Cantonese anymore." One of the little girls said to the grandmas in Mandarin : "Wo ting dong."
I perfectly understand what happens,what structures of power are doing. Those Cantonese grandmas perfectly remind me of my own Catalan grandparents. We must put the right word to what's happening, it's called LINGUICIDE.
At a time when everybody is fighting about pronouns and other useless fights of the moment, we should open our eyes on most important and consistent phenomenons that are occuring, on cultures that are being destroyed and lost.
How do you plan on teaching catalan to your children? I don't speak it fluently but my (hopefully) future wife speaks it as a native and I want my possible children to speak it. I ask this question in regards of how to motive oneself knowing that it "isn't useful". I know languages aren't just for capitalistic purposes but at the end of the day we still live in capitalism and I don't know if I would regret teaching them that language
â@@HelderGriff a child can learn up to seven languages at a time, and value and honor all the people and cultures that come with them. Not honoring our grandparents is a sad retribution to all they did for us. I am catalan, had different languages as a child, have lived in different countries, speak many dominant languages and minority languages. And minority languages have always opened many doors for me. I have had long lasting, excellent jobs using minority languages, and best of all, lots of warm friendships thanks to that.
I regret knowing Russian,
would regret knowing Mandarin just as much.
If Cantonese is âa dialect of Chineseâ, then Bulgarian is âa dialect of Slavicâ, Irish is âa dialect of Celticâ and so on.
I am an âidealistâ and I canât stand such âpragmatistsâ.
Cantonese is the prestige dialect of Yue, a language separate from Mandarin, although they both originate from Middle Chinese, similar to how French and Spanish originate from Latin. So it's not the language of Mandarin vs. the dialect of Cantonese. It's your native language vs. another language you learned.
Thank you for your comment! Yes Cantonese is certainly as different to Mandarin as French is to Spanish. I use the word âdialectâ loosely as thatâs how the average person would categorise Cantonese in relation to Mandarin. And as the saying goes, a dialect is just a language without any army đ«ąBut thank you very much for pointing this out! Out of interest, are you a Cantonese speaker yourself?
@@themultilingualfamilyhub No, I'm just a learner of Mandarin. I'm American and my wife is Taiwanese. I'd love to learn more languages, but Mandarin takes up enough of my time, especially with kids. We speak to our kids in Mandarin only, since we live in America, and figure they'll pick up English later.
Iâm surprised the English Mumâs children only speak Catalan if they live in Barcelona. Unless they live in a more rural area, every child in Barcelona grows up being bilingual. If anything, theyâre more likely to grow up speaking Spanish more than Catalan.
It doesnât always have to be a choice between one or the other. Depending on where you live and what languages each parent speaks, it is possible to raise a child with four languages.
In the perfect scenario:
âą One parent speaks one dialect with the child;
âą The other speaks another dialect with the child;
âą Between the parents, or as a group (at dinnertime, for example), you speak the lingua franca that isnât spoken in the country you live in;
âą Outside the house, with people outside your childâs immediate family, you use the lingua franca of the country youâre in.
If youâre worried about your child struggling to pick up the language of the country you live in, just make sure to read to your child in that language when theyâre a baby, and make sure you go out/have people visit and speak to the child in that language. Then when the child reaches nursery, they have all the phonology and grammar rules (i.e., the building blocks for learning the language) stored in their heads ready to be developed in school. Because the language of the country you live in will inevitably begin to dominate your childâs life. So giving your home languages a head start isnât detrimental, so long as your child is at least exposed to the language of the country frequently in its first years.
When it comes to this topic, people overlook exposure to the language too much. Your child doesnât necessarily need to be spoken to, just by hearing a language frequently they will learn it. But then when they begin to speak, you should encourage them to speak each language frequently in order to ensure they can produce the language. This isnât too difficult though as you can begin to dedicate certain times to âlessonsâ which would not only help the child to compartmentalise each language (teach them that X language is Basque and Y language is Cantonese), but also prepare them for nursery/school life.
I think most of your comment is right, but from a cognitivist approach, following empirical evidence of first language acquisition, there is not such thing as a full grammar stored in a baby's mind. Chomsky's assumption that children are not exposed to language is just an assumption but not a real empirical observation. Therefore we do need a lot of exposure to a language to really acquire it (as L1)
@@Muysc_quyne Yes. If thereâs any take away, let it be that: Exposure is the key factor.
I totally agree with you, why limit the choice. And actually, the child can learn up to seven languages with the perfect scenarios, That seems to be a "constant" of the human brain (child brain in this case) for any child worldwide.
You are such an excellent communicator! Loved this video.
Itâs a shame that with every generation abroad, retention of the heritage language becomes exponentially harder. I know this as a child of Chinese immigrants to Canada. Even though I can speak mandarin, there is no promise that I am good enough to pass it on to my own future children. And there is NO WAY that I can pass on sichuanese or shanghainese (dialects of my parents)
Thank you so much for your lovely comment!â€â€ really appreciate it! Yes, it does get harder with each new generation. As a first generation migrant myself I can just about manage it but many of our friends who are second gen migrants like you find it very hard to pass on the heritage language! Wishing you the best of luck - itâs not easy but it can be done đđđ
@@themultilingualfamilyhub youâre so welcome. It would be very interesting to hear you talk about what you think mother tongue means. Like when your children grow up, what would they tell people their mother tongue is and what does it even mean?
æŻèŻćč¶äžä» æŻäœäžșäžéšèŻèšçæèœïŒäčæŻćź¶ćșæ æèżç»ççșœćžŠă柶ćșæ æèżç»ćĄé äžäžȘäșșçpersonalityïŒć€§æŠæŻć«äșșæ Œć§ïŒïŒäžćç柶ćșçèżç»ćłćźäșäžäžȘäșșćżç”çäžçă
Useless and inferior languages DO NOT EXIST. To say otherwise is tantamount to saying that inferior PEOPLE exist (i.e. those who speak those so-called inferior languages) and it is inexcusably insulting. I speak French, and by that, I don't mean Parisian or Metropolitan European French. (Je lis et écris le français international, mais dans ma vie quotidienne je parle le québécois.) I would never contemplate not speaking Québécois to my kids. It's not inferior. It's us! It reflects us geographically, (we're North American) historically (our ancestors spoke much like us) and culturally. I wouldn't speak to my kids any other way. So yes, I'm definitely Team Dialect.
I am a Lebanese-American whose parents moved to the US before I was born. Arabic also has the Lingua Franca-Dialect dilemma but in a weird way. The official Arabic is called Modern Standard Arabic (MSA), while there are roughly 25-30 dialects, with Levantine being the one I grew up listening to. What makes this strange is that while MSA is taught in schools all across the Arab World, virtually no one speaks it on a daily basis. It is only used in official settings such as academia, the news, literature, law, etc. (Funnily enough, while you said that normally dialects were better at conveying emotion, a lot of the time, poems in Arabic would be written in MSA.) If you were to try to start a conversation with someone on the street in MSA, they'll understand you, but they'll be confused and won't feel as fluent as if they were speaking their dialect. What's weirder is that a few dialects (Egyptian and Levantine) are considered "more practical" Lingua Francas of the Arab World thanks to the popularity of Egyptian, Syrian, and Lebanese media.
If I were to have kids and wanted to speak to them in Arabic, it would be an easy decision to talk in Levantine Arabic. There was a story in my family where my second cousin was living in France, but her dad wanted her to learn Arabic. He took her to an Arabic school where she learned MSA. When her family came back to Lebanon for the summer, they went one day to a beach with a few friends (including my mom). As my cousin was playing, she naturally said "ۧÙŰ·ÙŰł ŰŹÙ ÙÙ ŰŹŰŻŰ§ ۧÙÙÙÙ " (The weather is very beautiful today) in perfect MSA. While my mom understood her, she laughed and the friends were confused as to why she was speaking MSA. So in Arabic's case, the more pragmatic way is to speak the dialect.
Wow, this is SUPER interesting!! I never would've known about these intricacies. Thanks so much for sharing your insights with us here!!!
My mother was Salvadoran and my father was French. Both spoke French; only she spoke Spanish. By the time I was born, they had switched to English, but they and relatives supplied many French books. Spanish I heard only when my mother spoke on the phone. That tiny input was enough for me to become a native speaker of sound changes between languages; when I traveled to Portugal for a church construction project, I picked up the language in about ten days. (Of course, I've forgotten most of my Portuguese since I've been in Brazil.)
I suggest that you keep providing a little input in Cantonese as well as a lot of input in Mandarin. It takes a lot less than twice the input to learn two closely related languages.
This does not apply to Basque, which is unrelated to Spanish though they've borrowed words from each other. It does apply to Catalan.
Great insights!! Thanks so much! I agree, it will be much easier for them to pick up Cantonese now that they already speak Mandarin. Thanks a lot Pierre!
I am in the Philippines. The local language where we are is Waray-Waray, the native language of my wife. I am Dutch. We want to raise our son here for now, and perhaps later move to the Netherlands.
The first language we want to teach is the language me and my wife communicate in: English. That sounds easy but is already complicated. My wife speaks Filipino English, which is an official language in the Philippines and taught in school. I was taught English-English in school, but later picked up some American English. I would prefer my son to learn American-English as Filipino-English is useless outside schools in the Philippines. Nobody uses that language as a native language, although it is used in an official government setting in the Philippines as well.
Second is Waray-Waray. This will be the language used in the first few years in elementary school. My wife thinks it's not important to learn that language, but I think it is important for the first few years. Many people around here do not speak any foreign languages as they leave school early. If you are not good in foreign languages, then you have a problem in this country as everything after elementary school is taught in foreign languages. I only speak a little bit of Waray-Waray, so I depend on my wife's willingness to use this language.
The third language is Filipino/Tagalog. Filipino is another official language. It is a standardized form of Tagalog, the language spoken in and around the capital city, Manila. This language is used in schools. I can speak a little bit of this language, but more than Waray-Waray. My wife speaks this language well.
The fourth language is Dutch. My wife doesn't speak this language. This language might be useful if my son wonts to study in the Netherlands, which offers better job opportunities. Many Dutch schools currently offer education taught in the English language (English English), but the new government has announced that they want to reduce this as it reduces the level of education. I am not sure how much I want to focus on Dutch in the first few years of my son's life as he's not going to use it much.
To make the mess complete in the Philippines the lingua franca actually is Taglish, a mixture of English and Tagalog, with no official status or standard.
Mixing languages is common here and my wife also does it when she speaks to me in English she just mixes in Tagalog/Waray for the words she doesn't know. I have a feeling she does the same when speaking Tagalog. When talking with family she generally uses a mixture of Tagalog and Waray-Waray, with different ratios of each language depending on who she's talking to. I can't do this, although I might learn to do this over time.
I am considering improving my German and French after learning Tagalog and Waray-Waray. German and French are taught in highschool in the Netherlands, so it might be useful if I could teach him a bit. But that may be an option for later.
At the same time as I am learning Tagalog and Waray-Waray, I am also learning Spanish. Both Waray-Waray and Tagalog use a lot of Spanish words (as do other Filipino languages) and I find it much easier to learn. Spanish can be studied as an extra subject in some Dutch schools.
Iâm in the US and Iâm trying to teach my daughter Bisaya (closely related to Waray) and Tagalog. My wife and I mostly use English together (sheâs FilAm born in the US). I was born in Cebu, but raised in the US, but I can speak Bisaya because my parents spoke it in the house and I was always interested in learning. My wife can understand Tagalog since her parents are from Manila. Most of the Bisaya learning will be from me, and most of the Tagalog learning will be from her side of the family.
I think my daughter will probably use Tagalog more since most of her Tagalog family is closer geographically and the wider FilAm community mostly speaks Tagalog. I do feel sad that she probably wonât use Bisaya but Iâm still determined to teach my kids đ
Hi! I just came from Jeremy's channel. Hope you hit 200 subs soon, and a little later down the line monetization!
Thank you so much!
I am Bengali and moved to the Middle East when I was three. I speak Bengali and English, as well as Hindi/Urdu, due to the large desi community here which makes it easy to learn. I also studied Modern Standard Arabic (MSA) in school as a compulsory language because of living in an Arabic-speaking country. Additionally, we had our mother tongue in school, with languages offered based on the school's demographic, so I studied Bengali for a while.
Alongside compulsory English and Arabic, the second language offered depends on the specific school. Some schools offer French, but this second language is not studied throughout the entire school life; we later focus only on core subjects and the compulsory languages of Arabic and English. This scenario can apply to any Bengali living abroad, with the specific languages varying by region. For instance, Bengalis living in Malaysia will likely know Malay and English alongside MSA and Bengali as secondary languages.
Many Bengali communities in the Middle East, especially children, know Bengali, Hindi/Urdu, and English with basic reading and writing skills in MSA. In Bangladesh, depending on the school, students can learn English, Bengali, and MSA (due to its importance in Islam), and also Hindi/Urdu because of the popularity of Indian TV shows and movies in Bangladesh .
So for us, English and Bengali are primary, with other secondary languages depending on if you are Muslim, the country you reside in, the community you are among, and what your school offers.
Just my subjective observation.
i needed this!
I'm a white male from the States and my wife is from Mainland China. We had moved to Macao in the late 90s and our son was born there. Macao, like Hong Kong, is part of Guangdong, and as such the main language or dialect spoken there is Cantonese. We were facing this issue and decided to let nature take its course so to speak.
So, when our son was very young his friends were all locals, and his pre-school was a local one so naturally his first language/dialect became Cantonese while in our home he was getting English from me, Mandarin from his mom, and Cantonese from our live-in helper.
When he approached 3rd grade we moved across the border to Zhuhai. Being a mainland city the school there used Mandarin for teaching but his friends all spoke Cantonese with him. So his main language slowly changed to Mandarin but now having a helper from the Philippines he was getting a lot of Tagalog from her.
Reaching the 7th grade we moved to Beijing, all Cantonese and Tagalog influence was now gone. His new school used British English as opposed to American English at home, he had some Mandarin classes at school which were far too simple for him. He added French classes and he spoke Mandarin at home with Mom and my Sister-in-law and often times French with his mom as she herself is tri-lingual Mandarin/English/French. After a couple more years he switched from French classes to Spanish ones.
After graduation, he moved to the UK for University. He hangs out with a mixed crowd but has some Cantonese friends who live near him in London with whom he speaks regularly in Cantonese. But now his main language is English.
You may find all this confusing, but my point is, don't worry about trying to structure your child's language ability. It will come naturally through exposure. If you force it your child may resent you for it. The fact of the matter is, that once they reach adulthood, unless they are still in a position to utilize all of the languages they learned, those languages may be forgotten. Use it or lose it is something that actually happens in life so don't force a language on a child that it is quite possible they may never need it in life. It may end up forgotten and all of that valuable time where the child could have been building up other skills like interpersonal relations is lost.
Thanks very much for your insightful comment! While I agree with a lot of what you said, I do hope and very much believe that we're not necessarily forcing our languages on our kids and that they are still given the time and space to build up other skills. To be honest, our current routine will probably last a few more years at most... Once our kids are older, they'll have their own interests and want to focus on other things, and that's absolutely fine. And I very much believe that any adult can become proficient in any language later in life if there's the will - so yeah, thank you very much for sharing your experience with us!
I'm a born bilingual living in Mumbai Maharashtra where Punjabi and Tamil languages are spoken. So I know Odiya as the natural mother tongue along with Bengali, the state language of West Bengal, Marathi the local language, Punjabi and Tamil. English is the medium of instruction. I know Urdu because of Punjabis.
I am only 20 years old (although I plan to have children) but I am a member of a language group in the Philippines that only has about 400,000 speakers. I also happen to be a very passionate linguistics student and grassroots advocate, and so I am very saddened by social mechanisms, especially in this globalized world, that forces families to give up their heritage for the sake of "practicality". I believe we can always pick up one more language if we really want to. Fortunately, in my community, children often learn four languages due to the different layers of lingua francas. And so, even without any effort, my children would be able to pick them all up, just like me. Additionally, I can then make extra effort using my linguistics skills to add more languages. I even know people whose families speak 5 or 6 languages due to intermarriage, hometowns, and foreign ancestry.
Mandarin is just a recent government project. It isn't tied to old rules, they don't even make sense in Mandarin. The Jin- Jang basis for the tones for example. Mandarin is just East Asian Esperanto. Cantonese is an actual human language.
Are you Team Lingua Franca or Team Dialect? Let us know in the comments section!
The lingua franca is also a dialect from a linguistics perspective. I think that people usually underestimate so much the children's ability to learn the lingua franca out of home... But what most studies and anecdotes show is that children will learn the lingua franca regardless of the language at home. The only thing that really makes disadvantageous the family language is, unfortunately, discrimination. And that's why languages go dormant. A child can learn the lingua franca after being exposed only to the family language and still be completely competent in both. I think that emphasizing the "utility" of languages based only on the number of speakers is a grey area and doesn't really help to the recognition of the human rights of every human being but only to those who belong to a majority or to a powerful and prestigious group.
After first watching this video, I nearly burst into tears, especially after that "idealist" v. "pragmatic" argument that was offered. The only thing that I could ask was, "pragmatic" for whom? The parent, or the child? I had to take a break for several days before commenting because the argument was so disturbing to me.
A parent's first and foremost responsibility to their kids, in addition to teaching them how to get along and function in life, is to transmit their family history, heritage and culture (which includes language) to their child. Only parents (or other close family members, such as grandparents, or maybe aunts and uncles) can really effectively do this. No one else can. By bypassing this step, the parent is doing a great disservice to the child, no matter how "pragmatic" their intentions may seem to them. A child will grow up with the feeling that they have lost their heritage. This is no small matter and can affect them psychologically for the rest of their lives.
Heritage language and culture should be the utmost importance for a parent to transmit to their child, especially at the younger ages, (ie, 0-6), but actually continuing throughout the childhood. The child can learn any lingua franca after they have a thorough grounding in their heritage language and culture. There is absolutely no problem in having the kids learn Mandarin, or any other "lingua franca", but only after they get a solid grounding in their heritage language and culture first.
To illustrate this idea, let me offer an analogous example.
Suppose there are two Swedish siblings growing up in Sweden, where they grow up speaking and educated in Swedish, but later learn and master the lingua franca language, English. One of the siblings goes to Germany to study, and ends up marrying a German of Turkish descent. They communicate mostly in German to each other. The German of Turkish descent can speak Turkish, that he/she learned growing up with their Turkish family in Germany, but also learned some English in school, but not as well as the Swedish born spouse. Then they have kids.
Suppose that they want to emphasize that the kids learn a "lingua franca" that will be more useful to them later as a working adult, so they decide to train them in English from an early age, but they only pick up a little bit of Turkish from their Turkish relatives in Germany, and they don't learn Swedish language at all. The rationale is, English is the most useful lingua franca from a "future" business and economic perspective, and besides, they will be able to use English with their cousins in Sweden who will gain an excellent command of it in school. They are growing up European, and mastering English is something most Europeans do.
Then the child grows up. They will find that they feel very weak connection to their Turkish cultural heritage roots and no connection at all to their Swedish side. They learned German throughout school, but as neither parent is ethnically German, they are constantly reminded in German society that they are not really authentically ethnic German either despite their native command of German language. And despite their good to excellent command of English, they will never feel close connection to any Anglo society where English is the dominant native language as they are still a "foreigner". And although they can converse with their Swedish cousins in English, they are still quite lost to share any Swedish culture, history or language with them. This situation creates some psychological despair throughout their lives. Was that the "pragmatic" intention?
The parent in this video should theoretically try her best to give the child(ren) a thorough grounding in their Shanghai cultural heritage. However, since the parent's comfort in Shanghai language and culture is tenuous at best, the next best option is Hong Kong Cantonese language and culture (still would try to include as much Shanghai language and culture as possible). It is perfectly fine to introduce and even master Mandarin later, but only after they receive a thorough grounding in their family's culture and heritage language(s).
I can understand why someone who grew up in Hong Kong might hold almost a disdainful attitude towards heritage culture and language. Most Hongkongers whose parents' families did not originally speak "standard" Cantonese (ie, the Yuehai dialect from the Guangzhou, Hong Kong, Macau region, also known as 滣ćș話), quite willingly drop their heritage languages in favor of Cantonese. They usually will learn English and Mandarin later for "pragmatic" reasons, but will still view Cantonese as the language on which their identity is based. The heritage language is something their grandparents use, not them. There is a very high pressure to identify with Hong Kong growing up, and that means adopting Cantonese as their main language. There is no stigma in doing this, and little identity crisis, as over half the society did this very thing.
This does not translate overseas. In a society where the primary language(s) are not Cantonese or another Chinese dialect, the kids cannot simply adopt Mandarin and use that to replace their "heritage", as it is neither the heritage of the parents nor of the society they live in.
I have met many families where one or both parents speak Cantonese, but when raising their kids overseas, they decided to expose their kids to Mandarin but not Cantonese. Then the kid grows up and can understand "some" Mandarin (but maybe not at a highly proficient level), but almost no Cantonese. The child (now adult) is taught that they are of Cantonese origin, but cannot access their heritage culture. There is a lifelong identity crisis there. Many parents regret their decision only after the kids are grown.
I am from an ethnically blended family in the US. My father's family spoke the provincial Sze-Yap Cantonese sub-language dialect of Toishanese (ć°ć±±è©±ïŒ. My mother is of German / French /Scotch-Irish descent from the deep south, but learned very little German from her grandfather. I got regular exposure to Toishanese from my paternal grandparents (age 0-4), but it dropped off after that and I almost never heard it later in childhood. At age 6, I attended Sunday Cantonese school for a short period, but did not continue that. In senior high school (upper secondary), I started to learn Mandarin at Taiwanese church, and continued to study Mandarin at university. I also met both Cantonese and Toishanese speaking schoolmates at university and tried to pick up from then. Meanwhile, 2nd semester of Year 2 at university, the Chinese language department asked me to serve as a teaching assistant, which helped me solidify my understanding. I worked in a Cantonese speaking restaurant after university for a while, but worked in a HR consulting firm in DC and NY. I studied a lot on my own too, blessed with a plethora of Cantopop to draw upon.
Later I moved to Hong Kong, where I lived and worked for over 26 years, and Cantonese ended up becoming the language I used over 50% of the time. I also used Mandarin often, as I had to go to China and Taiwan often for work, and Mandarin also became more useful in Hong Kong as well. Of course, I used English daily too.
Nevertheless, my Toishanese is still locked at a 5 year old level, and I struggle to improve it. I identify with it as my heritage language, but I still cannot function easily in it, and this has given me some despair all my life. I asked my father when he was still alive why he didn't use it more with me when I was growing up, but he simply felt that it was not important. Yet, learning that almost 10% of Hong Kong people hail from the Sze Yap region of Guangdong province, the vast majority of them know their heritage language even less than I do - they find it funny that I know more than they do. Cantonese became my "social" language, but Mandarin, at best, functions as a language for work and travel, but not identity. I identify with Toishanese as my heritage language, but do not know it well enough to communicate effectively in it or use it access my own family's heritage.
The kids in this video -- -- what will become of their identity? Will the "pragmatic" goals of the parents simply backfire when they find out that they kids cannot identify with their heritage, and none of the lingua franca languages chosen by the parents is one they can personally identify with either? Again, I ask, "pragmatic" for whom?
Thank you so much for your insightful and thought-provoking comment. My husband and I have had the opportunity to live in various countries, which has led us to feel less attached to any one particular identity. However, I completely understand that this experience can differ greatly from family to family.
We believe that raising our children with Mandarin, even if not perfect, is better than not passing on any language at all. Ideally, we would love to have the time and resources to teach them both Cantonese and Mandarin, but that isn't always feasible.
I also feel strongly that no one should have to defend or justify their choices to others. In today's world, identities are fluid and constantly evolving, so there isnât a definitive 'right' or 'wrong' approach. This is just my perspective, but I wholeheartedly welcome diverse viewpoints and debates on my channel. Thank you again for sharing your thoughts.đ
My parents grew up speaking Burmese and Hokkien since they were Chinese immigrants in Myanmar. When I was little, they talked to each other in these two languages, but switched to Mandarin when talking to me. Luckily my grandma only talked in Hokkien so I got some exposure to this dialect. But sadly I'm totally foreign to Burmese, which made me kind of a deaf when my parents were having conversations in Burmese. I asked my parents why they didn't teach me or tried to talk to me in Burmese at my young age, they brushed me off by joking that they didn't want me to know their secrets. I think they don't feel regretful at all to the point that they might even think Burmese is an inferior language that they don't want me to inherit.đą
What a retrograde example of a trilingual parents with a bilingual kid.
Thanks for sharing your interesting experience and insights! It's sad that you never got to learn Burmese but I'm glad to hear that you got exposure to Hokkien from your grandmother. Do you think you might want to learn Burmese now as an adult?
If I were raising kids in a foreign country that wasn't primarily English speaking, I'd do my best to handle it like this - Assuming a native English-speaking husband and plenty of money, I'd first speak to the kids only in English. I'd hire a nanny that is a native speaker of the countries most common language, and instruct the nanny to speak to the kids only in that language. When the time comes for preschool, either a bilingual english/local language program, or all in the local language. This would leave plenty of time to become fluent in the local language before the kids need help with homework in school. Third and fourth languages can be added using the one language, one situation or accessory method, if we become proficient enough in them.....
Thank you very much for your comment!
Whether you learn cantonese or mandarin doesnt change the written language which is the same. Its just how you pronounce certain words. Its like speaking Quebecoise/French Creole dialect vs french.
Cantonese has a whole different grammar and vocabulary than mandarin. You can choose to write Cantonese with mandarin grammar and vocabulary but it's not what people naturally speak
@@Ale-zo7ii Chinese regardless of dialect has colloquial language and written language. You do not write how you speak.
@@alouie001 the written language you're talking about developed after mandarin was introduced as mandatory all across the country, if her son learns Cantonese he's not gonna learn the written language you're talking about. The "written language" is just mandarin, but read with a Cantonese pronunciation. Cantonese is a whole different language
I guess it isn't too late to teach your children some basics of Cantonese though. Overall a great video thank you đ
Donât regret about it. Sometimes if you teach Cantonese to your kid, he/she may end up speaking Mandarin with a dialectal accent and use wrong words because he/she confuses it with a Cantonese word. Hence, there are some risks involved.
Despite your disclaimers I canât avoid pointing out that Cantonese and Catalan arenât dialects. If they were, English, Rumantsh, Albanian, Dutch, Swahili, Bahasa Indonesia would be also dialects. So, in that sense, your speech has been more than poor. Shame !
Thank you for your comment! As I said, I definitely should've been careful with my word choice, although I still wish to point out that Cantonese is âofficiallyâ classified as a dialect in mainland China, even if it is, linguistically speaking, a distinct language. We can, of course, agree or disagree with this classification, but thatâs probably a separate topic that Iâd rather not get into lest we get into a political discussion :) Despite my careless use of the word âdialectâ, I hope the video still delivered some value to some viewers. I accept and indeed welcome all constructive criticism - thank you for taking the time to comment on this video, and I humbly accept that I should spend more time on research for future videos on similar topics!
I was raised bilingual and it made me dumber and less happy, if I didnt know Spanish my life would be 10x better. They're a bad influence.
That's an interesting perspective. Would you like to elaborate on why being raised bilingual made you dumber and less happy? I think many of us here would really like to know. Thanks!
OMG Mandarin over Canto all the way... Sorry to say it but canto sounds like people are throwing phlegms at each other, it just sounds horrible whereas Mandarin is way more endearing to the ear