Illegal Warhammer vs Legal Warhammer
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- čas přidán 20. 06. 2024
- I take a look at some Warhammer 40k Miniatures and decide what the best material is for you. Should you buy genuine Games Workshop Forge World miniatures? Should you buy Resin Recast Warhammer miniatures? Or should you be using 3D printed Warhammer? I take a look at all three materials, discuss the pros and cons and give my take on them.
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You do realize that all of games workshops models are 3d painted. After which they do the clean up work which is literally the only difference. If you have good quality resin and are willing to put the time in to get a more detailed model out of it there almost identical in terms of quality.
It's all about the quality of the base material and the detail level.of the program being used.
It's honestly a good thing that the 3d painted models require some extra work to make them on par with Games Workshops 3d printed models. Doing the work yourself give a hit of appreciation in the the work done when you do choose to buy a model you can't 3d print for whatever reason. Usually to do with the physical restrictions of your set up. Most people don't buy the very top of the line 3d printers.
Ps. Thanks for the link to the brushes needed to get some new ones.
@@John2r1 I thought they only 3D print the prototypes and then they print the masters, clean them up good and make a mold for mass production.
@@ThatGuyKal it's easier and cheaper to use 3d printing for mass production. Granted their using high end 3d printers and more detailed programming.
They use to use molds . But technology changes. In either case the process is effectively the same. And the real differences are in the quality of the resin and that they do all the clean up work.
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I have to disagree with the statement that the prices are justified. My reasoning is simple, Gundam and model aircraft and tanks exist. Gundam kits are well designed enough to articulate and fit together fantasitcally with push fit design. They even come with decals and in multiple colors per kit, never mind the shear volume of plastic in the box which is typically dollar for dollar about three times as much as GW.
Gunpla model kits are insanely priced as well. You have a community of people who bash Bandai for their pricing of kits and wait for bootleg versions of certain kits to come out and buy them. There are companies like Super Nova, Dragon Momoko, and Daban that people praise because of their prices compared to Bandai, yet their bootleg kits are built like trash and weak-ass plastic. When Bandai goes after them for protecting their IP the bootleg community gets pissed off and starts attacking Bandai.
@@Trinioutsider34 bruh, a single contemptor dreadnought cost 60$, and its tiny asf, with that you can buy a MG gunpla, that has more things on it
@@unestegosaurio8002 I don't know where you're getting MG kits for 60$. But where I live MG kits ain't that cheap and aren't getting cheaper either.
@@unestegosaurio8002 MG and RG Gunpla priced compared to GW models (which uses all 1 plastic compared to gundam's color range) is shameful really and that's on top of needing couple hundred in literature to use your toys, which don't move like gunpla either...
So checking Hobby Link Japan shows master grade Gundam models going from 20 USD to 115 USD.
The fact is game workshop is incentivizing 3rd party models by their unnecessary high prices.
As far as I’m concerned they can suck it. Don’t try to extort your customers and they’ll by your models instead of looking for alternatives.
There are legit no 3rd party Warhammer miniatures. If GW isn’t outsourcing their IP to anyone else. Those recast miniatures that are being sold are considered bootleg. I see this same sorter argument in the Gunpla community.
@@Trinioutsider34 Sure there are....it's called other companies and 3d printing proxies. Can go to Mantic and pick up some Riftforge Orcs to be used as Ironjaws. There are plenty of 3d printing alternative models that will fit just fine and are legally distinct.
@@demon1103 Who has GW outsourced their IP to so they can recast their miniatures for their game?
@@Trinioutsider34 Oh I wasn't talking about recasts. On that I will grant you. I was just saying there are 3rd party Warhammer models in the form of proxies.
@@Trinioutsider34 there most certainly are third party models. It’s the reason why even in their own sponsored tournaments they allow these models as long as they’re close enough to the originals. And btw they don’t have to license there IP for it to be 3rd party.
GM has incentivize this by arbitrarily charging outrageous prices. I by my main pieces from them. The rest I go to third parties and 3D print them.
The fact that GW sold us a new Contempt Dread kit, then REMOVED IT FROM THE GAME in less than 11 months is straight up crazy.
They cant, at once, say you cant use thord party minis while also forcibly devaluing the minis you already bought from them by removing them from the game without massive fan resentment
And THAT is the real issue here.
They didn't remove it from the game at all. They removed it from competitive play for tournaments as it's less to balance. Find better friends that aren't meta cucks.
While i understand that game workshop has alot of cost for things but sometimes they take the piss £65 for a one model is insane and the fact they can make deals with 3rd party companies to sell them cheaper clearly shows the cost of the model is not as high as they make it out to be
the price tag is not in the mini, it's in the "premium".
I worked in toll, actually handled quite a few of these mini's, and I can tell you, they don't even cost a 1/5th of what GW is asking for them.
sometimes take the piss? it costs around 5 quid if that for fully customizable squad of resin to print off a squad of terminators Games workshop want 30-40 for them and they are dated looking games workshop have been ripping people off for years and for the ones saying but the rules ect.... they wont stop making the rules while they still sell games im not saying they shouldnt make money but dont mark up 400% on plastic kits from over 10 years ago also remember GW sent us out finecast happily knowing it was a shit version of the plastic molds and still increased the cost of them
@@akantor0811 Resin print all my WH stuff. GW is too pricey, especially if you are looking for out of print, or just artist creations. I am not into the WH game, but I am more of a collector, so for me $100+ for one model is just too much. Not when I can print a model for $5, or buy a Chinese version for $10-$20.
@@DeepbloodFang That's exactly why a single Commando unit costs the same as a 10 Model box
😂😂😂 Have you seen any of Squidmar Minis' videos about assembling a Forge World Tau Manta? What an absolute chore that was.
If you find no bubbles or defects in forge world models you are reaaally lucky
Yeahhhhhh, I think part of the problem is people think recasters are actually using inject moulds like gedubs, I think most are just 3d printing shit, so I bought some Krieg guardsmen from FW and from a Russian manufacturer , the Russian stuff is literally better because it's all just printed. There is no flash, no double mould lines, it's freaking crazy that some backwater yokels with a 3d printer and a dream can produce better quality models than the company selling them first hand while they tell us to be grateful that prices are only raising 15% this year! Gee willickers do I feel lucky!
Reminds me of my Chaplain Dread.
I got one from Forgeworld - double hit, the Dead cast sucked plus the Chaplain Dread went to legends the next year.
The reason there are so many good stories about fw support is because they send out so much low quality product
Forge World “quality control” is definitely a massive elephant in the room about this whole “debate”, along with the prices GW wants for its stuff (FW or not) *sound effect of cash register opening, followed by man gasping in ever rising pitch and a violin string being plucked*
@@huntercreed1 most recasters made molds of the official models and use resin (deppeding on the caster can be very nice and as durable or more then fw or can be brittle )
For anyone who thinks GW's pricing is in any way fair, I'd recommend you research gunpla; the most expensive (MSRP-wise) model to date is the MGEX Unicorn gundam, priced at 230-250 USD. This model comes with a crap load of accessories, a display base, and LEDs. Now let's compare this to something of around the same size: a Warhound Titan. The MSRP of a Warhound Titan is, according to forge world, 621 USD. this is a model that doesn't even include the Titan's limbs or any weaponry, mind you. All you get for the price of mid-end graphics card is the torso, legs, and head of a figure barely the size of two coffee mugs. Mind you, this is a resin kit with no arms being sold for almost 3 times the price of a high quality, posable plastic kit which includes a display base, literally a whole armory, and LEDs. That's without mentioning the cost to the distributors to get the damn thing from japan. Now, tell me, do you still think GW's pricing is fair? When you can get a kit like the PG Strike Gundam, which stands at around 30cm, is completely posable, highly detailed and durable, and comes with a few accessories for the same price you could get Mortarion, who is either the size of a coffee cup or as small as a box of tiktaks depending on which version you get; I ask you - where is the "fair pricing"?
The manta is £2000. That is a high level gaming pc or a good chunk of your child's education fees
As someone from the Gunpla community. I'll tell ya now, some people hate Bandai's pricing and defend bootleg kits. Been in that community for years before getting into Warhammer. That community ain't any better when it comes to people complaining about pricing on Bandai's kit.
They always insist the bootleg companies put out better kits than Bandai to defend themselves in buying bootleg kits.
@@Trinioutsider34 people will always find excuse to justify immoral act like stealing etx.
@@ysbrann3059 Yup and that's the lay of the land. The Gunpla community, Warhammer, and gaming community are full of people like that. And when they get caught stealing they ask why.
i am prety sure Gundam model are not made for table top game.
Some other points to consider;
- Recasts can be the only way to get old models that GW no longer wants to sell. I just wish GW would license 3rd parties to recast/sell OOP models in a legit way (I wish, but dont for a second think they ever will...)
- 3D printing also allows you to print at different scales e.g. scale up for some inquisitor RPG 54mm scale minis or (my favourite) down to 15mm 40k. We really need to make 15mm 40k a thing.
forgeworld is it its own worst enemy with its cost, chronic out of stock inventory, long shipping times. You can find recasts that will arrive in 3 weeks for 1/3 the cost. Then sometimes the recast resin quality is better than FWs
Good points! Thanks for contributing something positive to the conversation!
@@ForTehNguyen I was done with FW dreams after watching a Manta unboxing and seeing the incredibly bad shape it showed up in.
@@BenjisHobbies "something positive to the conversation" = something that doesn't conflict with your excuses for GW's pricing and your blatant ignorance of and disregard for their misconduct and failings as a company. Man, you really must be starved for "positivity"
@@proposterous2808 ‘misconduct’ 😂 Dude, get out of your mums basement and go and touch some grass.
Nah, the prices are not justified. Look at other companies that sell comparable miniatures.
Only other minis I've seen even close are Raging Heroes and Creature Caster and they are on par with GW price wise but are also resin which is way more of a pain to work with
@@fateweaver9844 Wargames Atlantic guard proxies are not just on par but better than what GW offers for a fraction of the price. it cost me less to buy 120 of their death fields raumjagers than it does to buy 30 cadians...
GW is just Apple of miniatures. Apple is overpriced too for no good reason. You should just deal with it, poor thief.
Are their comparable companies with comparable number is staff, store locations, warehouses, exhibition hall, etc? It’s not the product quality that is the only factor in price. There is no company comparable to GW. Ignoring these factors is just stupid.
Idiots don’t use eBay. I got a deredeo dread with plasma and rocket pods for $80. You’re just bad with money if you think GW is too expensive.
Per their last financial report, GW’s profits are ~50% of their revenues. They could cut their prices in half and still pay all their employees.
Understand that is looking at GW's overall financial report, preportionally the area seeing most growth is digital games, if the imbalence continues over time, and 3d printing continues to harm profits made by fabricateing minitures then you should expect significant changes to to GW's bussness model, like moveing its operations to china.
Gone are the days where the guy running the show actully has a connection to the product, it is now a former hasbro exsec, so don't expect it to lean over backwards to keep its operations in Nottingham. And as of the past 5 or so years GW now considers its minitures bussness a collectables bussness instead, identifying that audience as the ones provideing the most profit, not wargamers.
EXACTLY! Their profits vs their overhead show the prices really aren’t “necessary.” Just preferable.
They can’t even use the “pay for the design” excuse when they are raising the prices significantly on old sculpts from the 90’s / early 2000’s (looking at you Skaven)
I don't think you understand how financials work. Just because they are making 50% profit on miniatures doesn't mean you cut the cost in half. It means you cut the profit portion in half. So for example, if something costs $10 to make, $2 to ship to stores, and they sell it for $20, their profit is $8. If you cut prices in half, they are now losing money. Now, if you cut retail down by $4 to $16, then you are still making money and reduce the cost to consumers. Its a very simplified answer, but its how basic financials and economics work.
Exactly this. That whole justification in the first 2 minutes is a load of cr*p
A business wants to make more money vs. less money? Wtf
"The overheads GW has." You do realise GW has a 36% profit margin, after all overheads, rent, power, wages, advertising, etc? That's insane. Most large companies have something in the range of 2-5% profit margins. GW effectively has no excuse for their costs. Yes, they have large overheads, but they set their prices so much higher than any reasonable justification you can provide. No mater how much their operation costs them, the numbers don't lie. They could slash prices 25% on everything they sell and would still be raking in a hefty profit each year. This is fact, backed up my many former GW employees who have seen their figures. Their costs are high because they decided whales would still be willing to pay them.
Recasts are cheaper because you're paying closer to what it actually costs to produce the product, not because of sweatshop working conditions.
@@Stevie-J It's not entitlement. Some people are being priced out of their own hobby because of GW greed to maintain insane profit margins. You say entitlement. I say classism, or do you not want to admit what you really mean is "poor people need not apply to the hobby."
If they slashed 25% off all prices, more current players would buy more models to complete their army/armies and new/interested players are more willing to start and buy even more whether they continue the hobby or not. In the end GW would likely make even more money after cutting prices than keeping them at the current price or higher.
@@Stevie-J calm down, GW wont bang you. well, considering their prices... maybe XDDDDDDDD
@@Stevie-J the hobby is gonna die becuz of gw greed.....come back after 10 years, read this message again and think: hmpph they mightve been right all along
Someone doesn't understand capitalism.
You tried really hard to rationalize GW's pricing, specially regarding FW, but in the end, it's objectively overpriced. any other plastic product in the same market (ie: model kits and minis) shows that. It cannot be justified. The only reason is their insane greed and want for massive profit margins. nothing else
Yeah, that's what make him a sheep
Anybody tells me my 3d proxies are illegal when I'm at a friendly club game, I tell tell them if they buy it for me, I'll use it.
You know what they are, they're the same size, have the correct options... if you're gonna bite my head of about how that siege claw arm on that leviathan isn't official, you can go right ahead and either buy me the real one, or give me the money to buy a real one.
I simply don't have the money for genuine models anymore.
An stl and some resin, totally, but £35 for a basic-bitch troop choice? Hell no.
>justified when overheads are taken into account
Yes, all those lawyers are expensive.
Let's get one thing straight, the GW prices are *not* justified.
The Designers get little pay and the production of plastic models is cheap af. We're talking about cents/pennies.
Plus anti consumer and anti employee policies lead me to the decision of not giving GW a single cent if it can be avoided
It's weird, I see this claim that plastic model production is "cheap" but I don't think most people realize it isn't THAT cheap. I work in a similar field and there is a fair bit of overhead, and it's SKYROCKETED in the last two years. (Not justifying pricing, just pointing out a fact)
@@DCAMM720 and yet other model companies using the same material and methods are significantly cheaper even when dealing with larger models. Just go look at any hobby store.
platic model as far from cheap , just the mold cost dozen of thousand to make. En even if so , giving your money to parasite like recaster is not justified
@@truetheternal2314 so ? does that justify stealing ? we are not talking about essential goods here
@@ysbrann3059 No I'm not say it is. I am just saying that they are over priced. Yes it cost money to make models and what but most is done with computers specialized equipment and the like that reduces the cost greatly. I work for a company that owns its models even though a 3rd party actually makes them and trust me if we can make a return a 2 cents a brush with expense then so can they. Also when I worked with pouring pewter we made our models by hand and that takes a lot more work and time. most likely they are designing their product on computer then 3d printing it then doing a reverse model and creating the model from that. Call it 2 days to make the model and a week to design and print all done by some under paid person most likely. I never promote pirated material but I do support 3d printing your own stuff if you want heavy customization and unique characters. If I want a squad of grunts I will just buy them sense it will take more effort and time to print a standard grunt then just buying it. But yeah prices are not reasonable for your average consumer.
1:45
Nah mate.
36% profit margins.
Their costs aren't that big
Their costs aren't that much, but those executives have boat paymemts to make. Show a little sympathy for the rich and disconnected, would ya?
The big issue I have with his reasoning is he lists stuff like packaging and storage. When a ton of models just sit in shelves in an LGS and you can’t open a single large shipment from GW without stuff being crushed or crinkled. GW doesn’t pay for that storage and they certainly don’t pay for quality or reasonable packaging. Their product pricing simply excludes certain customers and part of me feels like it might be intentional. “Look you’re part of the people who can afford to play our games. Isn’t that awesome?” And recent business practices don’t steer me away from that answer either.
@@justarandomname420 nope never 😂
@@meiswaffle101 England is a has a very classist heritage, originating from the Norman racism towards the Saxons.
While the race aspect is forgotten, do to race mixing, the culture of lower class vs middle class is still a thing. I'm quite certain that it has informed gws behavior over the decades. And humans are of course susceptible to hubris, so its no surprise that it has infected even American players.
Pretty cringe people taking pride in being scamed. 😂
1:51 False, nothing about GWs absurdly hyper premium pricing is justified, lets just nip that toxic thought process in the bud. Also, forgeworld models, by and large, are utter trash and are never reflective of the price you pay for them. Personally, Id feel a lot worse about buying from recasters if GW made any attempt whatsoever to respect and care for their customers, but I know that'll never happen.
The issue with official models is that they are sold at practically a 4000% markup. Raw materials for those models is obsurdly cheap. GW as a business is very greedy and definitely price gouging.
Yeah look at loot studio for example 70 models for $15.....GW 5 models for $45.
@@thomasgross8289 that is such a stupid comparison lol.
GW price includes packaging, graphic design for the boxes, studio paintjobs, marketing, factory costs,...
Loot studio is a group of people who sculpt models and then just put them online, they have very little overhead costs.
@@syndromBE you are absolutely correct. still GW prices are bullshit.
@@grumpyhobbit4689 i wasn't defending the prices. Just stating it's not a fair comparison. Plus for loot you have to invest in a printer and resin.
@@syndromBE a one time $300 purchase and a $20-30 bottle of resin that lasts for tons of prints pays for itself in no time. I invested in a resin printer ans have gotten so much out of it.
Your recast and Forge World experience are the literal opposite of everyone I know who has done both.
GW has a history of price hiking their models and still not paying their employees anywhere near what they could or realistically should be for their work, esp their artists. I will continue to support content creators and 3D print minis when I can, especially forge world models
If everyone only used 3d print, then GW eventually ceases to exist. The only reason you are happy to print 3D is you know other suckers will keep buying legit GW and keep them in business. Calling GW out for huge prices but willingly stealing IP makes you no better. If you dont like GW prices quit buying and quit GW.
Welcome to our world. Burger flippers don't make anything near the money they should that corporate does at McDonalds.
@@chiselcheswick5673 3D printign is good for smal scale production. Its horrible for the scale that GW has to deal with
@@chiselcheswick5673 stealing GWs ip?
You mean the IP thats stolen from -
Lotr, Dnd, star wars, starship troopers, Dune, amongst others?
Recasting is morally right. Buying recast is morally right. Thats why I do it
@@aidan1R, There's a difference in inspiration and stealing. Warhammer has been inspired by those IP's,just like those IP's are also inspired by other stories. Nothing was stolen from those IP's. Don't know where people like get the idea that being inspired by something is stealing.
i'm more a lore guy than a model collector (don't have the space or the artistic capability for the figurines), but from what i'm hearing, the recasters and 3D printers are just capitalism in action. GW is offering a good at a price that the market views as too much, and so alternatives are looked at. You can argue about IPs and ethics, but if GW wants to curb or stop other people from printing out miniatures, they need to adjust their business plan accordingly.
in the end they can only fault themselfs, realy. first if you exclude marines, almost no other army got any love from GW for a very long time. many armies have models as old as the players themselfs. and dispite the age of those models, they are prized like they are the best stuff ever made. gotta love it when your most amazing elf lordes look like clunky dwarfs with oversized helmets and weapons while they cost the same as this badass SM captain, that get's an upgrade every year.
it is just logical, that many players will eventually look elsewhere for nice looking models and tbh: once you have invested into a 3d printer, you never go back. you get high quality files for cheap or even free everywhere. GW doesn't even try to compete. they don't want to, in fact. their agressive IP marketing is like a last lash out from a diing tyranit monster after rolling a 6 for explosion instead of rolling a save.
@@calronkeltaran493 i'm no lawyer, but i have a feeling they try to sue over some of these IP claims in the USA, they're gonna get BTFO'd by Fair Use if someone pushes back. The fact they'd be stupid enough to stop free publicity is amazing, it reminds me of when CZcams lets plays became a thing, you had game companies that realized "hey, its free marketing", and others who tried to stop it (sometimes because they had a bad game). Guess whose games tended to do better?
@@magmat0585 exactly. so many players came to warhammer because of Astrates or other fanmade projects and GW shut them down. this stuff never works for the long run but well... if GW shuts down, we will get a 40k 9th age and propably better rules support and updates. so the game itself is save
Under rated comment. Every other take is idealism from what ever bias the commenter holds. At the end of the day people will pay what they are willing to pay and if cheaper alternatives become available GW will have to either adapt or fail. Such is the way of the world, every attempt at changing this simple fact of supply and demand has ended in catastrophic failure. GW is no more immune to the laws of economics than the late Soviet Uninion.
There has been a lot of comments about GW pricing model below, but I would just like to add one thing. You are not wrong about GW having overhead costs that recasters or 3d artists don't, as well as the fact that workers are likely treated better by a company in UK than China given the labour laws, however one could also point to the scale effect that means GW has likely lower production costs, because they can negotiate lower material prices as a bigger client than most, have higher volume of production that allows to cut some costs etc.. It is also worth pointing out, that company which has similar mode of operation, so overhead costs as well, but on a smaller scale, while having their hq and manufacturing in the very same city as GW - Mantic Games - is still capable of offering their products at lower prices than GW.
The material cost is almost negligible.
Yeah material cost is barely anything, buying resin for a 3d printer at retail costs pennies per model, can't really get much cheaper than that no matter what your volume is. Where recasters save money is in low overheads, tiny wage rates in comparison, and zero design costs.
You still need stuff like cardboard for boxing or other supplies, plus comparison to recasters on your part conveniently avoids my point of other smaller companies, but operating according to similar model, still being able to offer lower prices than GW. You can also check other comments here for points on GW's profit margins (that are pretty high already AFTER taking account of those overhead costs you believe to be a sufficient excuse).
@@Keseleth I didn't say GW's prices were good, I was just pointing out your comment on the material costs was irrelevant because the cost of materials is irrelevant. If GW was getting their cardboard for free it doesn't materially change the price of a box of miniatures compared to someone else paying 20p for it. I don't have to respond to your whole comment because I don't care about the rest of it, I chose to respond to the bit that was wrong, sorry if I hurt your feelings
I like the 3d printed ones because in my opinion commiting a crime while also playing chaos or non imperuim forces seems like an extra bit of role play
Well, 3d print a original model is not a crime, only if you 3d print a scam of a GW miniature (sorry for the bad english)
lmao u got a point doe
Are you insane thanking that the prices of Forge World is reasonable? Do you really think that the rest of the world believes that games workshops customer service is good? How many times have we all bought models from Forge World that has had warped parts?
I think something very important to remember that wasn't mentioned here is that Games Workshop has a habit of making limited release models or just discontinuing popular products which are now impossible to acquire directly from them. This leaves you with either buying resale, which can be much more expensive than even the legitimate original model and is also limited in quantity while also not helping GW and their employees at all, or you buy recast/3D print. Recasts are a great way to preserve history and make older models available long after GW stops supporting them without having to buy your own 3D printer and still not coming out with the same level of detail.
I'll go back to buying Forgeworld when they redact the 30% overnight price increase for regions outside the UK. There is no justification for their pricing on that, and even so in the UK they still make a killing profit margin on FW products. Overheads do not justify this. And with the garbage rules they are pushing for HH 2.0 I'll just stick to my recaster.
I'd buy forgeworld if they dropped their prices by over 50%.
@@moreplease998 same
Where do you get your recasts it's for a friend
Indeed. Not to mention the "internal conversion rate" GW overall uses. When 8th Ed came out if I'd been allowed to buy the FW indices in GBP(£) rather than USD($) it would have literally saved me OVER $10 PER PDF/ebook. At the time the £ and $ were not nearly far enough apart to justify that kind of difference. When I asked GW about it they literally explained to me "oh we have an internal conversion rate we use for calculating what people with other currencies should pay, we don't care about currency conversion rates". And the US isn't even the worst for this. Ask New Zealand and Australia.
I'd buy ForgeWorld (again) if they actually had any semblance of quality control along with better pricing. Picked up some Krieg to round out my kill team and got models that broke when I clipped them from the sprue and models with gaping holes at thinner parts.
lol , he forgot to mention that other UK mini companies also have the same overhead without the scale of economy a big company GW has, yet their prices are are consumer friendly. "significant overhead" and "wages" are crap, especially since we found out that GW are underpaying their employees. Do your research before believing CZcams shills.
if they where 'perceived' high prices..no one would be getting 3d printers or re-casts..just saying..
and no, they are not justified high prices, its outright greed.
Having built a few Telemons myself, the placement of those shoulder pauldrons will forever haunt my dreams.
Good thing they’re not glued on yet 😉
Thank satan because that was almost awkward lol
Talking about IP theft, Maybe GW shouldn't have copy pasted most of their lore from the Dune novel series, or ripped off other IP's to craft their universe, just saying. God Emperor, Navigators, Warp Travel, Las weapons, just a few examples lifted from Dune an older IP than GW's WH40k universe 🤣
People keep using this as an example of IP theft - it’s not. You can be inspired by works, provided your own is different. You could ask two painters to paint the same picture, but both would be drastically different.
@@BenjisHobbies Actually, a whole lot of 40K is stripped right from other works. Power armor for example, the idea of a man-sized suit of indestructible armor with an arsenal of a tank came from Starship Troopers; as mentioned above, basically the entirety of 40Ks space travel is ripped right from Dune. The original Tyranid models were based off the Alien movies.
Yes, they've changed things over the years, but way back at the roots, it was straight IP theft
@@Dietsteve If that's the case then Dune is just Lawrence of Arabia in space. I bet you didn't know Dune was inspired by that story.
I think the human rights argument against recasts is flawed and something you present with about zero evidence to back up for such a bold statement. The truth is many recasters are actually very small operations, it's less one massive factory with hundreds of underpaid employees than it is probably about 5-10 guys operating out of a warehouse and making reasonably good money. Whilst GW have the overheads from the development and marketing of their miniatures, it's well known that their costs are much higher than they should be and they're not operating close to the line whatsoever. Recasts are basically the miniature hobby's equivalent of video game piracy/illegal keyselling, and to me the solution is the same, just provide a better service and a reasonable price and you'll take them out the market. The core issue is that a lot of the time the legit FW product isn't significantly better than the recasts (considering I likely know which recaster you bought your miniature from, they're renowned for having an iffy quality at best, as are most easy to find recasters, better ones tend to be cheaper but restricted to closed groups) and whilst the service of GW sending replacement bits if anything is casted wrong, even that can be questionable at best. I've heard cases of people being sent 3-4 of the same bits before finally getting one that is casted correctly. I think the core issue though is GW miniatures only ever get more expensive (a few outliers like blood knights being a significant exception). For instance with video games, older video games are sold for significantly cheaper than new releases, even on platforms that remain consistent like PC. In fact in almost every hobby, something that is older and still in production is almost always sold as significantly cheaper than a new release, however GW keeps the cost of all of their model kits artificially high, especially with forge world. To me it is completely understandable as to why someone wouldn't want to spend the same amount of money on a miniature made over a decade ago compared to one released this year. The majority of kits that are recasted are ones that have been around for years and simply remain overcosted, if GW addressed this by lowering the cost of kits that had already paid for their cost of production and beyond to a reasonable level, the market for recasts would shrink dramatically overnight.
I never thought about the video game example, very well thought out comment
Very well thought out and reasonable comment.
Have nevery thought of, or heard the comparison between older video games, and decreases to pricing on older kits. I agree with this sentiment very much.
You want to be careful with radical ideas like these though, however well expressed, you'll be tarred, feathered and run out of the hobby in no time.
just 3d print it instead of doing recasting then you zero suit samosa
@@RedsGoneGrey Honestly I'm not really worried, I feel like recasting is actually a lot more common than people think it is, and anyone who would have a serious problem with me buying recasts isn't someone I'd want to associate with anyway.
Lol... all those human rights violations in the recasting "factories"...... while using a China bought 3d printer..... if that doesn't say GW simp, I don't know what does
interesting how all the reports about GW having horrible working conditions were not mentioned.
You mean the rants by disgruntled ex employees? 👍🏼
@@BenjisHobbies oh yeah 100% just dismiss them because they are ex-employees
@@melonboi927 you missed out the ‘disgruntled’ part.
It might not be the best job but it's better than China
I play many systems (bolt action, infinity, 40k, full thrust...) and I think you should separate rules from miniatures.
Unless you play in official tournaments, any model is equal. I have a Tau army with no GW miniatures. Fire warriors are C3 infantry from warlord games; stealth are iron guard from Dust Tactics; tanks are 3d printed hovertank from Battletech; riptide is a converted Gundam Tieren model.
No IP infringement, models are all legal (no copies or recasts), great and unique army, and far cheaper than from GW itself.
And supports businesses and the hobby
... Just not GW.
I openly hate their business practices, from the intentional power creep to the cease and desist policy for content creators
Holy cow. I thought full thrust had died a death. Happy to see another FT player.
My thoughts exactly.
Couldn’t agree more - except that 40K is such a crap gaming experience I wouldn’t go anywhere near it even with independently manufactured armies.
There are so many better games out there.
@@sirrathersplendid4825 Often the choice is between 40k game or no game at all... Other systems are better, just not as played.
@@robertotomasini2072 - Personally I would not play 40k, except purely as a social exercise.
Price isn't justified. Look at their profit margins to see.
Your right. It should be illegal for a company to make a profit.
@@moreplease998 lol. You posted some of the funniest content I have read today. Thanks for the chuckle.
@@craigjones7343 excessive profit margin means the cost/profit ratio works well for them. It means we have every right to get annoyed when they jack them higher. Why is this hard for you to understand?
@@shadowsift you don’t have to buy anything that they make. How hard is that for you to understand?
Unless you’re going to stop buying their product your bitching on the internet is just a useless temper tantrum.
People forget that GW had a factory in China. When they shut them down, the factory sold the parts to the casting. This was way before 3d printing and it one of the reason why you will find very good recast when order there. They are not prefect but I seen many recast from other players who order from Russia or 3d print. None of them match up to the China recast. Its very very hard to see the different in the Forge World models. ( That because Forgeworld model are not prefect and do require handy work to make them prefect).
GW's pricing is absolutely ludicrous. They make so much profit off their minis, they could cut all prices in half and still make profit
Disagree on the replacement policies I had a sicarian with a very bad mold slip on the back. I was able to provide examples of other sicarians I own and basically got told FW is for experienced hobbiests.
It may be but it should also not be poor quality.
I don't think GW marketing hasn't been doing a very stellar job given their treatment of the IP, the fan animations stance is a really hard thing to see, as this hobby had an undeniable, massive influx of members through things like TTS, Astartes, Death of Hope, SODAZ, etc. They deserve to lose money for it. Not just through recasting, but through the 3d artists too.
yet they whore out the IP to mobile game devs like nothing
I like how you talk about poor working conditions in China as you 3D print using a Chinese printer. Good one.
You tried buying a British made 3D printer lately?
@@BenjisHobbies lol It's impossible not to buy from China but if you have a choice you probably shouldn't
@@nerdhop1584 that’s exactly what I’m saying 👍🏼
@@BenjisHobbies Ya 🤜
@@BenjisHobbies Honestly that's a reason why I like to buy from GW. There's not a lot of large companies the manufacturer most of their products outside of china
The phrase “even in debt I still serve” comes to mind whenever someone tells me to “just buy official”
The moment you said the prices are justified, you lost me entirely, dude.
I think when we have the discussion about recasting, we should always take into consideration the active and harmful theft of recasting models from the current line that is being sold and recasting for the sake of preserving miniatures that are no longer being actively produced and sold. IMO, recasting out of production things should not hold the same severity as recasting actively sold minioatures.
Recasting and 3D printing things like GW models is totally fine, and I always recommend it. Once a company disregards and shits on its own consumers, it loses rights to complain.
"Harmful" lmfao.
Piracy is a victimless.crime
@@dylanhertzog9816 A Wrong for a Wrong don t make a True . You can t afford the hobby ? time to fidn another one then . Stop trying to justify yourself liek that it s pathetic
For me personally, I only use recasts for out of production models & Forge World stuff - in other words, products where my money won't go to my local game store anyway!
The recast Forge World models I have are higher quality than the originals at 1/3 of the price, meaning I have money left over to support local stores instead :)
We have been recasting since the 90s. There is entire industris build around it. There are guys who have 20 printers running non stop printing kasarkin, Votan exo armour, the new tau suit cmd etc.
I dunno about it. I personaly printed a Contemptor last week and while I haven't finished painting it it can easily stand next to the GW one and nobody would bet an eye.
It always comes town to the files themselves. The one that you printed semed a bit badly scaled. A little bit of editing in Blender can fix all of those issues.
I want to play 40k but the prices are insane. I'm an accountant for a... larger firm and I just cannot justify the expenditure. How can people without my privilege spend so much on a *HOBBY* ?
Every hobby has a price. Some are more expensive than others. If you’re priced out of one, you just go find another
I'm suprised that arguments about GW price gouging still rage. Anyone who thinks GW pricing is fair really do need to look at the history and learn the lessons. A reminder:
When GW switched from lead to "white metal" we were told this would enable lower pricing as production costs on pewter were lower. Prices went up.
When GW switched from pewter to mostly plastics, we were told it would bring the cost of the hobby down as plastic was cheaper to manufacture than metal. Single mini prises rose slightly. Boxed product stayed the same for a year.. ..then rose.
When GW looked to move to finecast we were told comparable prices to metal but higher quality. Prices rose, quality fell.
Now when I buy a single 32mm chatacter for my wife's D&D character it's in plastic and costs over £15 from GW. Similarly cool stuff from reaper, in metal, costs £6.50. WTF?
I'm glad GW exist. I love their designs and the passion of the community around them but seriously, if you think GW is fair in it's pricing, Apple would like a word with you as you are likely their kind of mark.
Support GW and your local hobby shops by all means. Just know that there's a reason most hobby stores sell gw product cheaper than gw themselves.
3D modelling is getting more popular and far easier. GW will die if they don't adapt. They wont win when there is a cheaper alternative that gives the same or better customer experience. At the moment they are charging a massive amount for what is essentially bits of plastic you assemble yourself.
For the price of a few minis I can buy a 3D printer and building materials. the only thing I cant do with them is play in official tournaments. If you are printing them. you can choose the quality/detail you want.
Now for the other major plus for 3D printing. I can use it for a lot more that just minis.
GW ain’t going no where. People have been saying this for years now.
@@Trinioutsider34 However for years we've also not seen a major uptake in 3D printing, especially 3D printing with quality that can match GW stuff. With the 4K and 8K 3D printers your getting JUST as good quality sculpts are you are from GW because, I'll let you in on a little secret, they 3D print the prototypes using those exact same 3D printers people are using at home THEN they send them off to have moulds made (most of the modern models are nolonger hand sculpted either, they all sculpted in 3D programs and then 3D printed).
All you're doing is cutting out the middle man of requiring moulds for injection plastic mass production if you're doing it at home because, well, you don't need to have that level of production from home.
@@luketfer I don't think you get what I am talking about. I could care less about 3D printing. What I am talking about is people recasting GW's work and re-selling it. Once again this argument I see in the Gunpla community. People think IP theft is a way of sticking it to companies like GW
Food for thought indeed, still not convinced that recasts or 3d have more than a minimal impact on GW's cashflow, as their last money wobble was over a decade ago and that was purely down to their own greed and lack of innovation. 3d is still very much in the niche at the moment but if it becomes plug and play i-printer that'll be time for GW to worry.
Finally someone with sense.
Currently 3D printind is a hobby on its own. You need to do a proper research and testing before printing quality miniatures.
Id guess you’re right. As much as it gets talked about I don’t personally know any Warhammer players that 3D print. And I only know one person who bought a Russian recast but only 1 model.
@@NightfireGamingYT I've got 3 or 4 folks with printers in my local nerd herd of about a dozen, mostly its just bits rather than whole armies although one chap does have a Custodes 3d army but that's only 20 odd models, its usually extra guns or armour bits for 40k and appropriate terrain for other games
Resin printers are more and more user friendly. There are already first models that print normally, not upside down and don't need that many supports.
This video did not feel honest. Games workshop has a operating profit margin of 43%... Compare that to Alphabet Inc owner of google, they have a great business success and is extremely wealthy as a company and "only" have 33.7% profit margin. So GW is asking us for way to much money, they are gate keeping young players to be able to afford the game. Don't get me wrong, I love to play GW games, but they are way to greedy for there own good. So if I can skip paying fore forgworld, or to buy a whole other box of devestators to get one more plasma gun I will print or recast.
Exactly this, and you can see Benji’s Hobbies only likes comments supporting GW. So kind of suspicious.
@@dxd8603 Exactly, and to put the whole matter in to even larger perspective so a big Oil company like Chevron has 12% profit margin and Walmart has 2%
So GW with its 43% is like top in the world with making pure profit. And that is the markup we players have to pay.
“Just got back from an event at Warhammer World”
No matter what the content of the video, the outcome was decided in that statement right there!
In all seriousness though:
I don’t support IP theft nor recasting models (unless they are no longer sold anywhere)
I do not support blatant IP theft in 3D printing. But “models inspired by” are absolutely fine and expand the hobby.
I do not support GW’s pricing model when, despite their overhead, they still have record breaking profits.
I fully support smaller game producers that are more consumer friendly and that are pushing the hobby in interesting ways. Making more interesting games and model kits that are both more affordable and more interesting (in my opinion)
If people had any ounce of an idea of how injection moulding works they would realise just how crazy expensive GW are compared to how much it costs to mould their miniatures, not to mention how cheap the bare material is they use.
It's not the casting that's expensive, it's those steel molds that they use that cost so much.
@@JMcMillen In the context of it all the moulds cost fuck all.
My highschool had a 50 ton injection molding machine donated to it, an equivalent brand new machine costs about 50,000 USD, it took a highschool student 2 weeks to design from scratch a token to be used for good behavior and whatnot in the school store, from there it took a week to cnc the mold with no prior experience, we spent about a week trying to get the injection machine working till we called the place we got the machine from and they sent someone out and helped us get it running, all in all it took a highschool with NO prior experience a little over a month while only working an hour a day to get a product mass producing. The cost of the plastic is about $10 a pound which can produce about 1200 tokens and the cost of the mold in material is a few hundred dollars.
@@blah-po9et it is very simple.
Yes GW’s moulds would be a little more detailed etc. but the amount of product these machines can pump out now is ridiculous, and on skeleton crews.
GW is a big company so they would have multiple spare machines and moulds so if their is a failure or breakdown they just switch over. Their moulding machines would be going day and night easily.
The cost of their raw material would be extremely low also. In the hardhat moulding industry a hardhat is sold on average for like $10-$15 where I’m from. Material cost for that hardhat is 40 cents.
You've clearly not had the average Australian Forge World Experience.
They take MONTHS to arrive in the first place, are very often faulty, and take MONTHS to have parts replaced.
As for the legal arguments presented, we have a "significantly transformative" clause in our copyright laws.
My interpretation is the 3d print is fine, but the recast is not.
And if I'm wrong, then applying the same test means GW are likely infringing on the original IPs that "inspired" many of their designs in the first place.
... what happened to the "I'll be back" rule Necrons had in the 90s ?
At the moment, people have no choice but to recast or get third party variants if they want contemptor dreadnoughts.
The plastic version is literally gone from the store without a trace and there are no arm options for them on forgeworld.
you can alway buy preowned models, u can save on the cost at the same time =)
@@guillaumeargento4469 Haven't had any luck finding fairly priced ones thus far, additionally I'm searching for volkite armed variants.
According to my local GW man, its because they are redoing the plastic contemptor kit for the new Heresy line. Presumably they have run out of stock and are not reprinting because the new one is out soon
Contemptor is off the FW and GW site because they’ve been very clearly saying for awhile it’ll be redone in plastic. And not the shitty one that came in the betrayal at Calth box. A redesigned, poseable plastic contemptor. I’m glad that they took off the old plastic contemptor because continuing to sell it on the cusp of a new released one would be awful.
@@Conzor563 Yeah you and your LGW are right, a few others confirmed it for me too.
Huge price copes being thrown out. They're extremely overpriced, let's not even pretend there's any reason besides greed.
I'm a tool and die maker, sure the dies are expensive. But with the amount they sell that cost is barely noticable.
Their stuff is that expensive because they can get away with it being overpriced.
Friend works in a factory that uses plastic and if remembering correctly a about 1 ton box of plastic pellets was, this was couple years ago, like 5-10 USD. meaning the number of boxes GW gets out of a single box of plastic, likely even cheaper as they order so much of it, that each box is less than to maybe 5 or 10 dollars to make. Then turning around and selling those for 60-170 USD. At MINIMUM thats a 6x return and at most your talking about over a 100x return. Yes boxing/shipping/storage/etc but that isnt going to multiply the cost 100s of times.
Plus the argument that GW staff has good working conditions is also not very true. Midwinter Minis has a video titles "Dear Games Workshop" where he discusses that the staff is underpaid
GW can charge whatever they want, it is their IP. Take Ferrari, Rolex etc for example. It is for them to choose their business model. They do not have to make it affordable nor do they have to justify profits. Either you buy or you don't. Everyone is free to buy illegal recasts or make 3D models that steal IP. Just don't try and justify it to others as something other than what it is.
Me I have a couple of recasts and a few 3d printed addons. I know they aren't legal but I'm honest with myself about them being a form of theft.
@@markhickson9087 They can only get away with that because of their reputation. Since they’re such a well established company. Also, people like you who will make excuses for them no matter what.
@@markhickson9087 Except GW lifted all the ideas in their IP from other SciFi IP's back in the day. 90% of their universe is just DUNE run through the find and replace in Word a few times, the other 10% is everything from 2000AD to Aliens. Pretty hard to defend GW from and IP standpoint IMO.
Having ordered from GW and likely the same Chinese recaster as in the video, I can fully say I had a better customer support experience with the recaster than GW, I was missing a part out of one of the recast kits and I emailed the support, and overnight he emailed me back and had the part expedited and was there with a week vs GW who took 3 days to message me back and took over a month to get a Necron nightbringers torso replaced after I found a massive bubble square in the middle of its chest. And I do agree with the points about official GW, vs 3d printing vs recast but I don't have the time to 3d print an entire army, I don't support GW after the whole content creator fiasco, and the sheer cost of models from GW, like I don't have the money to buy an entire Warhammer army for $800 but from the recaster it was about $300.
Do you remember the name of the recaster??
For educational purposes ofc
Yes..I also need to be educated, if you could be so kind ;)
more education needed here as well
I would also very much appreciate the name purely for the purposes of avoiding said website of course.
Everyone asking for the name: you won't get it unless someone doesn't care about having recaster availability. When names start getting dropped on threads and in comments is when they start taking down those recast sites, no one in their right mind would publicly post the name of a recast site.
I buy official where I can, but some of the FW stuff is prohibitively expensive and in the case of some models, unusable in a standard game, so they just end up as big centerpieces. At least with GW plastic I can stomach cause of the discounts at the LGS and I will always buy the GW plastic from the LGS. However the FW stuff, I almost always employ my 3D Printer and the players at my shop do not mind at all since the few printed models I do deploy are easily identifiable as to what they are. Plus all my prints are personal use only.
Then there is the argument that is it a sale lost if there was never a sale to be made in the first place? Kind of loops back to the FW pricing being REALLY high in comparison and how some people are simply priced out of it.
This video should be retitled “Here’s an add for GW.” If I can print or buy a low cost model then I will direct copy or not and not lose a wink of sleep over it. People shouldn’t be prevented from playing a game they love because they can’t afford the models.
Finally found a comment I fully support, I've seen propaganda before and this piece is one for GW
TBH, Forgeworld resin and packaging is crap. Every sword, spear and antenna is bent. IF you are lucky, no missing pieces, bubbles or miscasts. You pay more, and they have no quality assurance included in that price. Instead replacing stuff since those people make less?
Really interesting seeing the comparisons.
My guess is that right now 3D printers aren’t really hurting the bottom line at GW. But we’ll eventually have printer that can basically “scan” your model and just recreate it with minimal work or knowledge. And that’s when it will hurt, when it stops being an entirely different involved hobby.
It already exists. Take multiple pictures of the object from all angles
Upload to program. Hit run. Boom accurate 3d model.
@@Sasquatch-ff1pj I knew that was a thing that companies had but didn't realize that personal use printers could do it. Crazy!
@Enohadoland I'm sure 3D printers like that will just keep getting cheaper and cheaper over time.
@@NightfireGamingYT It's not just about a 3d printer. It's like your regular "paper" printer - your 3d printer needs a file (STL for example, there are some other formats). You scan the object/person with a 3d scanner, the scanner creates a 3D object file and then your 3d printer can print the object from the file. Or a 3D modeller makes a 3d model for you. Just like your camera creates a photo, then you send the photo to your computer and print the picture with your printer.
So you need a 3d scanner and a 3d printer (which is a good thing - you don't want to walk around with your printer to scan things :P ). I've seen a decent scanner for something like 800$, but I don't know if it's good enough for small miniatures. You could buy a very good printer for that price, though and there's more then enough models to print online..
@Enohadoland No. There are multiple programs doing this. One is over the internet and charges like $5 per use. It's called photometophy or something similar.
It will do this for objects big or small.
Technically Russian recasts are perfectly legal because they are a hostile company to Russia there IP's are not recognized and are perfectly legal to copy them in Russia (it's not ip theft because there is no gw IP in Russia). Also recast orders have taken from 3 days (faster than gw in my area) to a month so it is hit and miss for sure.
Also recast vendors give the same replacement policy as gw.
Some old FW stuff is literally worse than recast versions.
You also didn't even touch on the primary reason to stay from recast... No one does because you won't discover the huge issue unless you have built a lot of recast. (Tip: it's personal health related).
Does working with recast resin fuck with your health??
Damn, how??
@@pinoarias8601 The resin is not regulated and my body now reacts to any plastic or resin sanding shaving and cutting quite adversely. I can shave mold lines and cut around 5 infantry models before it triggers maybe 10 if I'm wearing a mask and I'm outside.
It happened after I built several larger recast models and now triggers with official gw resin or plastic.
It's like someone allergic to pollen in pollen season.
I find I have more problems with forgeworld model quality/ mold slip than with recasts, I have been given.
Try Elegoo's ABS-like resin for minis instead of the Standard. While it still has a brittle failure point if stressed enough, it has a degree of flex is far more forgiving, plus supports come off easier too.
get some syra tech tenacious resin. mix it 80% standard resin 20% tenacious for minis that can take a fall or a throw
Do you have to adjust you're exposure times/settings when you mix em?
@@taco0991 I have kept the same settings from Elegoo standard grey to ABS-like grey, and it works fine.
@@taco0991 not really
Warhammer summed up in 2 sentences:
"Great universe"
"shit company"
It's all legit as long as you don't care about GW hosted games. Play as you like!
as an Australian i wish we got warhammer at the same price as you guys. gw's massive aus tax (which isn't reflective of import taxes, wages or shipping) sees a lot of folks here buying recasts purely for that reason though i also hear many a claim of quality control issues with fw models that those same people claim to not have had with recasts
Aussie here as well; I get recasts all the time, and the quality is always perfect. I've had A LOT more issues with FW products, to the point where I have just stopped buying them.
I do agree that it's IP theft, but i don't really care.
GW own ex employees and hired casters tell how much of a margin they get from raw material alone.
Successfully casting island of blood ratogres for myself i can say that cost of one model was around a 50 cent. All other costs of "DESIGNING"(all ranges from 2000 and 1990s what still sell as completely new) and extra shipping kinda make GW prices even more laughable.
Look at over companies. Compare their prices and GW.
Perry brothers sell 39 prussian handgunners for 22 pounds. Or 12 armored horsed knights for SAME PRICE.
GW sells 10 handgunners for 18 pounds. Or 5 Freeguild Pistoliers for 21 pounds.
Quality of the sculpt is not that different, but somehow one company beliefs that their product deserves to be sold for super premium price.
All that without even talking about heroes with price coming literally out of nowhere.
P.S 50 cent of raw material without cost of the form itself. Form with all test of material before come to the ~5$ and was completely fine after 10 casts, only reason i stopped because nobody needs that much of same mono-pose models.
Always enjoyable! - looking forward to the painting video on these guys!!
Nearly 11 minutes of premium GW boot licking.
Good stuff.
I have dealt with many recasters and a good chunk are just 1 dude or a few friends making the models themselves. I'd argue that with all the ways gw treats staff like shit and how bad the pay is many recasters are actually less exploitative than GW factories. Personally though I 3d print all my models now for cost/time/quality (some 3d file sculpts are just better than the old as heck gw models) reasons. Gw is also an awful company that treats its staff and customers like shit so I find it a moral good to 3d print instead of giving them more of my money.
This. Re-casts aren't cheap because they're made by modern slavery in a sweatshop in China. Re-casts are cheap because resin casting is cheap...
Forge World pricing is set by GW based on what they believe whales are willing to pay. Forge World in particular appeals most to serious hobbyists with a lot of disposable income, so they can set the prices extortionately high and will still make sales. Note, the recent price increases, they ramped up the costs most in areas where they deemed it would have the least impact on sales, and Forge World went up a whopping 20% because they assumed (correctly) the whales would just keep paying more. Areas like paint, with considerably more competition from other brands, they didn't increase their prices, because they would lose business if they did.
As for GW overheads, yeah they're high, but the company also makes 36% profit each year, after all costs, wages, energy bills, site rent, logistics, etc. That's enormous, one of the highest profit margins of any major business in the world. Google doesn't make as big a profit as GW! It's widely known fact within GW that their prices are not set based on their own cost, but by what they predict people will be willing to pay. This is why they have regional pricing so high in Australia and Japan, it's based on the higher average wages and disposable incomes of those countries, not GW's actual cost to distribute there.
Basically, if anyone tells you GW products are expensive because they have big overheads to cover, it's false. If they tell you they're so expensive because they're the best quality models in the world, that's false (go look at scale model companies like Tamiya, or resin from Eduard, and the quality is so much higher, at a lower cost).
GW prices are so high because the suits decided they could get away with such ludicrous profits, and suckers would still buy it. No other justification or excuse, they are generating over 1/3 pure profit which is not being invested to grow the hobby, not being used to expand the business, lower costs, or improve the experience for customers. That 1/3 is just going straight into the pockets of shareholders as dividends.
@@AllThingsCubey Yeah, I'm an Aussie so it's pretty foreign for me to see people upset with recasts or 3d printing. When your entire country of fans gets fucked over so hard by gw like we do most people realise "oh shit this company actually sucks"
@@mrorange8576 Aussies used to have higher disposable income, hence GW dumbass prices for your region, but the pandemic has really messed with that I hear, so the situation is just untenable now. I don't blame you at all to look for cheaper alternatives.
Regardless it's greed motivated. But also it has an impact on the community/getting people into the hobby because the higher cost gw sets make it harder for kids and teens to get into Warhammer since good luck to them convincing their parents to buy extremely overpriced models. also as a uni student, the amount of friends I have who want to get into Warhammer but don't because of the cost is insane. glad i can print up stuff for them with not much hassle now.
Agreed. Benji's making arguments concerning human rights while filming with electronic equipment and wearing clothing that probably comes from genuine sweat shops.
A solution for the exact copy theft would be for game's workshop to sell 3D printer files for a slightly higher price as the could be printed several times.
what do you call a "slightly higher prize"? if 5 units of marines cost 60€ and with GW logic the file enables unlimited marines, they may sell the files for 80€. noone would go for it. even if they admid, that they save production cost and make it 40€, only the real GW fans and GW tournament players would take it.
in comparison Infinite heroes offer a whole army to print for 80€ or just 16€ if it is the monthly featured one. even if I only use like 2 troops from this pack, it was worth it already. and their model quality compares to GW extremly well. they even come with a fully assembled option as well for extra convinience.
GW needs to drop their single model prices across the board. Their bundles are about what you should get on average for the price.
Many fans are growing frustrated with Games Workshop's sky-high prices for their models. Still, some people, including various CZcamsrs and commentators, defend these costs by pointing out the company's expenses, like production, staff wages, and taxes. However, for the everyday buyer, these reasons don't make a strong case. Customers expect reasonable prices, top-quality products, and quick delivery. They're not interested in the behind-the-scenes financial obligations a company faces.
What's more troubling is that other smaller companies are outperforming Games Workshop. They're creating similar or even superior models at a fraction of the price and time. This situation leads many to question Games Workshop's practices. If smaller companies can charge less for equal or better products, why can't Games Workshop, with all its industry dominance, do the same?
Consumers are practical. They don't see why they should sympathize with a company's internal costs when they're getting hit with steep prices. They want value for their money, and if Games Workshop can't provide that, customers will, and are, exploring alternatives.
The problem runs deeper with the hobby community feeling forced to find other solutions, like 3D printing their models. They're driven to this not only because of costs but also to continue enjoying their hobby without the strain on their wallets. The community's shift is a clear signal - they're not just looking for cheaper options; they're searching for fairness and reasonability in pricing, which they feel Games Workshop isn't offering.
Additionally, passionate hobbyists and independent creators are stepping up. They're designing and producing models that fans have wanted for ages, directly responding to community feedback. They're nimble, innovative, and most importantly, they listen - something Games Workshop seems to struggle with amidst their traditional, slower ways.
Games Workshop's defenders need to see this bigger picture. It's not just about internal costs and company burdens. It's about fair pricing, innovation, and keeping the hobby accessible. Instead of justifying Games Workshop's high prices and practices, these defenders should encourage the company to listen to its fanbase, rethink its approach, and adjust its prices. Recognizing this could lead to a healthier community and, in the long run, benefit Games Workshop itself. It's time for the company and its proponents to stop masking the issues with talk of expenses and to start addressing the real concerns of the community.
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I'm sorry for writing an essay. It annoys me when creators make excuses for awful practices by companies.
I love my 3D printers, I have not purchased a retail model in about two years. Came close to purchasing some Mantic ships but then I found a creator who made some awesome fantasy boats at small scale. I just buy rule books from the big boys and print whatever I want. Also with retail models you can't scale them any bigger and you gotta get dirty if you want to modify them, cutting, gluing, shaving etc. , with 3D printing I just breakout the VR Quest and 3d program and I'm modifying the model right away. Printing full 3D printed games are awesome, your never stuck with huge boxes of plastic if you don't want to be, and you get to print only the materials you need.
What do you mean the 3d print is "not quite there..." that it's "more likely down to the files not being as detailed and refined as they could be" my brother in christ it's your opinion. Don't give us a "likely", just tell us you don't like the 3D print as much because the sculpt isn't as good.
Also it's a bit much to assume the recasts come from a factory with bad working conditions. Recasters wouldn't have massive factories. You should check your biases.
The sad thing is most offical warhammer shops don't allow forge world models making them a waste of money if you don't have any other gaming shops nearby
Really enjoyed this, Benito. I only watch a handful of painting channels now so always happy to see some new Senior Benjamin.
I 3d print almost exclusively these days, I don't buy GW products anymore.. I don't play in official games or stores.. I don't play any of their current systems and I don't give GW any money, any promotion and almost as little attention. And I lived happily ever after, GW and it's shareholders can eat dog crap for all I care. The best outcome is they one day go under and are forced to sell the IP. GW is a toxic trash fire and we don't need them anymore, I've got 35 years of games and their rules, WFB 6, 7, 8th edition, Mordheim and so much more so much better than AoS on every level. I don't need a new old world reboot at all either since I've never stopped with the original one and now with the likes of Warhammer Armies Project and better stl miniatures than GW why should anyone care? I'm not going to buy that either, they might get me on the rule book if the seriously improved it but why should anyone care about their miniatures anymore. 3d printing is already here forget the price point in another 2 years in comparison
1:40 NO , i stopped the video here.
Forget the models look at the price of books and tell me GW doesn’t price gouge the crap out of everything
GW prices are the most unjustified thing in the hobby space. For a table top game that functions by rotating and buffing units you’d expect to be able to buy an entire army for 100 usd max.
In all honesty - GW models are insanely expensive. People debating moral implications of recasts or 3-d printing love to conveniently forget constant price hikes on various GW models - and that includes some VERY old, and clearly obsolete looking models.
If 3-d printing ever grows to the point of becoming an actual issue to GW - we should not forget that GW do it to themselves. Just look at the price hike of such basic models as the very basic Guardsmen squad.
The simple dirt-cheap cost of 3-d printing gives a decent idea how massively gauged are GW prices - they are nowhere even near the fair pricing.
This gets even more insane when we also consider a never ending power creep and codex creep - these are also insanely expensive for something that for all intents and purposes should be moved online at least a decade ago.
If you in any way think that GW's prices are justified you're high.
And maybe if GW didn't directly steal so many ideas from other areas I might feel differently about recasting but it's a bit like crying over a thief having something stolen from them.
Who has GW stolen from? This is news to me.
8:42 it's about the artist and the files. The printers are insanely good and are only improving.
I do think it's worth mentioning that if you'd used a more highly pigmented resin, such as Siraya Tech Fast Navy Grey, or Phrozen Aqua Gray 4k/8k, the 3d printed dread probably would have come out looking better on camera than the official one, at least while unpainted. Once paint is on there, the detail on the official model would shine.
One Primaris Lieutenant has been deposited to your account.
How many tactical rocks is it standing on?
GW have overheads... and a ludicrous 30-40% profit margin for the shareholders.
I'll just keep printing. Quality difference isn't even visible when things are properly sanded down, and painted.
3:00 I like the "Biffer Bacon" style pose you've given your Forgeworld Dread, "Did yow spill me pint!"
Tortugay bay did what GW (multimillion dollar company) do a great mk2-4 true scale bodies, so why should a buy disgusting dwarf mk3 or new mk6 if I wanted mk3? Also, recaters in Russia do what FW does at 1/7 the price and at a better quality!
I've never been a fan of recasting for commercial use. Making bits or recasting for personal use, to me, isn't any different from kitbashing or scratch building bits or minis. As far as 3D printing, which i just got into, its a bit more a grey zone for me. There's no way I could afford Forge World prices for a Death Korps army. $75 for 10 minis that are only about 60 points just isn't something I could ever justify. I'm sure tons of effort and expense went into the design, sculpting, and casting of those miniatures, but for about the same cost I got a computer, 3D printer, resin, isopropyl alcohol, and the STL files to print my own army. I mean for the price of one earth shaker battery I bought a laptop, the outsider detachment costs the same as the 3D printer.
I would love to be able to afford a Forge World army. I'm sure the sculpts are more detailed and nicer than the 3D printed minis I have, but since I can print an entire 10 man squad for about $1.50 worth of resin i have a really hard time justifying the price.
Personally, whay I don't understand is, with GW plastics being the insanely high detail and quality, why does Forge World still exist?
"for the price of one earth shaker battery I bought a laptop", lmao, really puts things into perspective. That's crazy.
Affordable Warhammer vs Unaffordable Warhammer.
As long as GW keeps charging a 4,000% markup on cheap pieces of plastic, I'm gunna make my own.
I plan on getting a 3D printer to practice painting but I have bought a lot of necron legit stuff lately. I dont see anything wrong with 3D printing as long as you aren't selling them.
Not selling copies but their own creations are fair game.
@@KrullMaestaren Sure you can get away with some stuff if you change it around enough. I personally wouldn't want to fuck with GW though. They are ruthelss and would maybe just sue you for fun lmao.
@Red Dragon That is a bit incorrect, as a former designer, I can tell that in many countries (US among others) its fair game if you cane prove a 25% difference to the original version in a court of law. They are more strict with protected names so you better use "Troll Reseller" instead.
Don't care what GW think one way or another when they don't have a case. Just care about game, community and fun :) I am absolutely never going to judge someone elses proxy or "report" this to my GW overlords xD
If you want to play with your Moomin Marines then that is okay by me
@@KrullMaestaren There are some absolutely beautiful 3d models out there. I have 3500+ points of Eldar, 3500+ of Drukhari and 2k of CSM etc., but I'd rather use proxies for some horrible GW "originals" like Asurmen and other pheonix lords and most of the aspect warriors. In Drukhari basically every shit-cast model except the old Incubi - I was lucky and they were fine (especially since some of them are gone now, forever, lol - mandrakes, grotesques, court of the archon...).
For me it was always the rule of cool - if my opponent wanted to use Kromlech orks or sth., then I was more than happy with it, because his army looked unique and fun. Same with 3d printing, if you want a sexy Magos, farseer, tau waifu proxy or whatever, then go ahead.
Or, well, can't afford that new tank? That box of cookies looks close enough for now. :P Nowadays a lot of people act like you are a thief, if you bought/printed a proxy (I can see the argument for the 1:1 copy/recast, but I don't care personally).
Example: Artel W amazing alternative "Eldar" (and other stuff) they sell. People usually only comment about how amazing they look and not "OMG, THIEVES, CALL THE POLICE!"
But seems like god forbid if you bought an STL file and 3d printed something resembling a "sci-fied elf", or an orc with a gun.
@@SirRivelion I see... the old Drukhari Cookie Box tank strategy... "join the dark side, have a cookie" xD
True, 2nd ed WH40K came with its own cardboard, ork dreadnought :D Oh, and the cardboard terrain, they should never have discontinued it.
gw are destroying their own market with these costs. thats the reason I quit, I felt I was being constantly ripped off.
It certainly causes a *big think* when you see the most expensive Tamiya models being overshadowed price-wise by the cheapest GW tanks.
No excuse for gw prices, I work in a plastic factory and most of the plastic smelled is 80 cens a pound.
GW should just close FW completely and transfer all models to plastic.
This is it the early 2000s injected molding has gone very far. Some of the stuff bandi can do is on the scale of most FW Titans.
The idea of FW was to test and make models that wouldn’t sell well in plastic but has the hobby grows so should ideas of the past.
So for that reason I don’t buy any thing FW and only buy plastic GW kits. So if I would use a recast or 3D printed model it’s only because I’m against old outdated business practices.
Here are some rebuttals to pro Games Workshop apologetics.
"If we don't buy their models the company will die."
If it dies, it dies. JK. No, it won't die, it will sell. The portfolio of intellectual properties Games Workshop owns is worth hundreds of millions if not a few billions.
If you owned a failing business that was still worth hundreds of millions would you throw up your hands and walk away or make hundreds of millions selling it? Some company that sees the full
potential in the IP will snatch it up and shake things up.
Also GW treats the customer like trash. They shut down fan animations that are free advertising for them and do not imperil their bottom line, they gouge you on prices, they won't update their models for literal decades(but they'll charge you ever rising prices for them) and they can't be bothered to invest in producing balanced rules for their own game then have the gall to charge you for their fuck ups. Why are you supporting this?
"Their production costs are high, they have to charge a lot."
This is most laughable. I work an industry which uses molds that endure temperatures over 2000 degrees hotter than even tough plastics, are ungodly expensive,
and must be replaced more frequently. The case erector(s) and shrink wrappers they use to package are probably $150,000 - $300,000 including tooling.
Their injection mold machines are most likely between $500,000 and $3,000,000 a piece and with proper maintenance will give 15 to 20 years of life. And yet this product is sold much
cheaper than GW models.
GW probably have a handful of artists in their employ, but most likely contract artists for pieces at much lower prices (and infrequently as they re-use art for decades).
Also their artists and employees aren't being paid particularly well either.
Amortize the cost of equipment and artists over years and take into account their scale of production
and there is no way to justify paying $60 dollars for 3 Shining Spears that weigh 6 ounces of plastic, one of the cheapest materials on earth. No friends, you're paying the "Apple Tax" for a "premium product" which can be equaled and bested by the cheapest 3D printer and a $10/month Patreon subscription.
3D printing will upend the mini game market as the internet and MP3's did the music industry.
What is the can being used for on the models? Is it to clean the resin or like a super glue activator?