Kindly Correcting Trent Horn's Comments on LDS Christians
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- čas přidán 22. 08. 2023
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Other churches criticize the heck out of the history of The Church Of Jesus Christ Of Latter-day Saints, but they don't dare look at the history of their own churches.
To be fair, Catholics will be among the most honest or at least open to discuss their history.
@@webwarrior1.038 Even the Catholics gloss over parts of their history, like the children's crusade and the "Robbers Council".
That doesn’t really qualify for Trent Horn lol
@@jacobmorin485 what do you mean?
@@brg1213 Trent Horn is very well informed on Church History and is more familiar with critical arguments than most critics that promote them. I’m not even Roman Catholic
Why are people so obsessed with a book they hate and won't read
Exactly. They never even read it yet they become so obsessed with trying to prove it wrong with no evidence besides the same recycled garbage that has been around since the 1800s. It gets old but we should be proud. The bible tells us that if we are getting persecuted then we are doing something right, but if people leave you alone then you should watch out on what you are apart of. And we are clearly persecuted so I usually just take it as a sign even though I wish everybody would just read the book for themselves.
Cause it's another testament of our Saviour feeding his other sheep and people still don't understand that there are even more sheep he visited
@@elk2804 IKR🎯💯. I guess back in Christ's time the only people to exist lived in Jerusalem or Syria, no other people existed anywhere else in the world🤔. I do find it interesting that everyone claims Bible is the only book when they don't even read and study that book🤷. If Christians actually studied the Bible and lived by it's teachings, there would be far less hatred. We're seeing Nephi's dream come to pass right before our eyes... Which is cool, but heartbreaking at the same time 😔
@@elk2804 even when right there in the bible it talks about that. It is so sad that people cannot see it.
Actually most “anti-Mormons” have years in the church and left it after THINKING FOR THEMSELVES and doing research on it. You live in a BUBBLE where you are being brainwashed and constantly told to never seek out any information about the church that’s not from church sources. I can prove the entire religion false, but you won’t debate me. You, like every other Mormon, will just block me instead of having a discussion on your religion. They got you hooked. You don’t think for yourselves.
Hellen Kimball NEVER left her home to live with Joseph. They got sealed in her home with her parents present (No even in the Temple) Hellen married her actual husband two years later and they had 11 children; One of them became an apostle of the Church.
So does Joseph have 34 wives in heaven? And if so, so you actually hear yourself talk? How ridiculous and absurd that is? This religion is a cult that was created by a sexual predator and conman and I can PROVE IT false in a debate. But no, Mormons won’t debate me, or anyone else who left the church after researching what it truly is. Please debate me
So a Mormon can be “sealed” to as many women as he wants?
The Sealing power ties us to God. Sealing marriages happen to also sanctify our marriages after death separates us and seals our children to God as they're born. We don't know how the polygamist sealings will be sorted out, but we know they will before the final judgment.
Joseph 'became' mayor of a town in Illinois? NO. Joseph FOUNDED the 2nd largest CITY in Illinois, a city whose charter guaranteed religious freedom for Catholics, who were less than loved by the general populace of the time. You're welcome, Trent.
I was just thinking yesterday about how saying LDS wear magic under is like saying Catholics wear magic necklaces or that Jewish men wear magic hats lol. It’s really refreshing to hear people from outside our religion bat down the silly arguments.
Us Catholics have sacramentals such as the brown scapular, to wear one you have to be enrolled by a priest.
After the church came to Utah and built the tabernacle, the brothern invited religious leaders of other denominations. One was a Lutheran minister who question why Lutheran's struggled with polygamy. He then stated that Martin Luther after leaving the Catholic church had three wife's and openly promoted the practice.
This is interesting. Where did you read this? Would be nice to know the source.
My father found improvement era magazines bound from about 1890 to 1910. It was in one of these that I read about the talk.
I found the source May 1898 article by Dr. John M. Reiner on Mormonism.
So, glad that Elder Holland's talk was brought up because I am trying to connect it with Uchtdorf's recent GC talk for an EQ lesson on this upcoming Sunday.
I'll be watching. Just sitting back and enjoying another day within our Heavenly Father's Eternal Plan and feeling so grateful for the Restored Gospel on the earth. Exaltation, immortality and worlds without number are in my future, if I can but endure to the end. Ah, it's great to be alive.
Amen, my friend!
Wes and his How Many Heavenly Wives having eons of Celestial Sex? Tens of Billions of Spirit Babies?? YEAH BABY!! Wes the Shagmaster God!!
Ah yes, enduring to the end. Let's add helping our bros and sisters as much as we can as well, I know I need the encouragement
So it’s all about reward for works? How Christlike
@@krismurphy7711Did not Christ say himself to gain salvation you must keep the commandments and then to lay treasures in heaven to sell all and follow Him? Those are works bro. In the Bible from Jesus Himself.
Everyone, don't mind Kris, today his dad took away his Donny Osmond doll collection.
😂🤣ROTFL😂🤣
Cardon, you're on *FIRE* tonight!
Another fantastic episode!
Glad you enjoy it!
Agreed! I loved Kwaku tonight too. I love when they come together and boldly testify!
Thanks! I guess my thanks post from before was deleted? You are all an entertaining addition to my research and I am grateful!
I Don’t delete comments. Sometime the CZcams algorithms filter stuff though and I can’t explain why :). Anyway… thank you for the super-chat!
I didn’t think it was you, but, thank you for responding!
Praise to the man who communed with Jehova!!!!
Jesus anointed that prophet and seer!
Blessed to open the last dispensation !!!!
Kings shall extoll him and nations revere
I bear my testimony that Joseph smith is a false prophet and sexual predator and all-around worthless human being. May he rot in hell. I can prove Mormonism false 20 different ways. I left the church and found truth in the Holy Bible, (which teachings completely contradict Mormon doctrine, that’s why during the time of his death, Joseph smith was literally REWRITING the Bible to fit his beliefs. It’s called the “Joseph smith translation of the Bible” but nothing was “translated”. He just added a bunch of nonsense and changed verses he didn’t agree with, example being John 1: 1-3.
As a fairly new convert I have been impressed with Elder Holland more than any.
Elder Holland has long been one of my very favorites.
I hope you reconsider this religion. As there are a lot of problems they like to ignore as in the podcast. Just the fact that no archaelogical backs nothing of the religion.
@@revertrevertz5438 I don't know where you're getting your misinformation, but there is all kinds of archaeological evidence and more being found all the time, including DNA evidence.
@@revertrevertz5438 I checked out a lot of material including podcast pro and con so I know what the objections to the Latter-Day Saints are. However the Holy Spirit convinced me and is with me more than ever since my baptism and confirmation. I have been a member of other churches so I know the difference between their openness to the Holy spirit and the power and presence of the Holy Spirit in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. There is so much more, but I'm not going to write an essay. I will say that the objection you mentioned is incorrect, and more evidence continues to be gathered.
@@Calango741 Missinformation? If anything DNA has proven that no one of the Indigenous peoples in the Americas has an ounce of Jewish blood. As for Archaelogy, please tell me ONE, at least ONE site where any of this took place.
Whats with our Catholic brethren piling on lately?
When anyone says we are not Christian they forget the words of our Lord Jesus Christ John 13:34-35: BY THIS shall all men know ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another
gserrat great point! And they are not christians according to the same ones who denounce us, murdered us, destroyed Roman Catholic buildings, and call Roman Catholics not christians. So, Roman Catholics doing this piling on (not all) are you christians? If you are, we are. If we are not, then you are not.
I love Kwaku excitement about Elder Holland talk 😉😅
Good job guys.
Great episode!
Catholic here - Matt Fradd is looking to host a debate with Jimmy Akin and a good Mormon debater if this show knows anyone who would be good for that.
Jacob Hansen would demolish anyone. Check out Thoughtful Faith YT channel. We can put you in touch if you need....
39:00 printing press… yeah you know my take on that? Because it’s pretty dark and not something you share in Sunday school.
1) Joseph smith had been threatened that if he would destroy it, they would kill him. So why did he do it?
2) they also destroyed his printing press, so there is that.
3) Truman g. Madsen read the story that Joseph smith lay awake all night before he did it, because he was doubting whether he should or not.
4) Joseph smith was constantly suffering because of the cruel, terrible stories he was told by the members, the persecution, and experienced some of that first hand.
5) one of the stories from the members came from Eliza r. Snow, whom he later got sealed to. But before he did, she was gang-raped by 8 different guys during a raid in which mobe also burned down houses, murdered 17 men, and tarred others. Imagine this for a moment: you get raped by some savage jerk with a beard or whatever, and all that time you wish it was over. Then he’s done with you, and another guy does the same thing, all te while several others are laughing at you, cheering him on, and then you think it’s over… and another starts raping you. Each time the hope, the relief, and then your relief shattered by more abuse, and also not knowing whether they might kill you after that. Imagine Joseph not just hearing that story but many others like it. And then you have a printing press based on an extermination order that’s gonna spread more lies about the church, incentiving more raids and attacks by mobs like that.
In the end, I think Joseph smith weighed the decision: either I destroy it and they’ll kill me for it. Or I leave the press alone and more saints will be murdered, raped, scarred for life. He made the selfless decision. He cared too much about his followers. And no, from what I’ve heard, this was not to protect his narcissistic ego from false rumors because he wanted to be elected as president. Even his running for president was a lot related to being able to enforce laws to minimize the suffering of the saints, which was definitely necessary when you see these sociopaths put out an extermination order.
Cardon is a LDS version of Jack Black.
Why would Joseph Smith go through all that physical and emotional pain if he wasn't a Prophet of God? He could have given up at any time but he didn't. Great content. Loved it.
Maybe Because he was enjoying sleeping with multiple (including some underage and some already married) women, and commanding power over a large group of people? If you want an example of someone suffering for the faith look to the apostles, or St. Stephen, or the Early popes. They all died terrible deaths and didn't use their permission to control and deceive people.
In my state of Missouri, 15 year olds could be married. I believe they raised it to 16 in 2018. In fact I have seen in public very young women married on at least two occasions prior to 2018.
Great episode
It's an interesting phenomenon we are dealing with (Except for the Antis who used to be active members). A man is attacked over and over all over the Internet by people who really don't know anything about him. (Let's face it, most Anti-Mormons think Joseph Smith lived in Utah), and they also attack his book, a book which none of them have read.
It's also interesting to note that Moroni predicted this almost two-hundred years before the Internet was created, and he predicted it very accurately. When speaking to Joseph Smith, Joseph recalled, "That my name should be had for good and evil among all nations, kindreds, and tongues, or that it should be both good and evil spoken of among all people."
This prophecy is so the Internet of the 21st century. It is much more accurate than any of those lame quatrains Nostradamus came up with.
Lucifer hates Joseph Smith, and he hates the Book of Mormon even more, but he loves his followers who slither all over the Internet, using their fingers to type for him and their brains to lie and hate for him. We are seeing Lucifer in action with our own eyes.
Well, there are details like the book of Abraham alone that goes on to show that the guy was a liar.
VERY WELL SAID👌😊⚡🔥. People make up their own truth and no facts can be displayed before them. Their self importance will always keep them from any real truth
@@StompMom5 No, actually Lucifer loves Smith, just as much as he loved Mohamed.
@@revertrevertz5438LMAO
@@vendingdudes i guess that’s the best arguments Mormons have…
One thing about the location of the BofM, many of the Native Americans, Pacific Islanders did not have a written but oral traditions. Early missionaries had success with Tongans, Hawaiians, Maoris etc because it matched their traditions. Dont believe me? Go to the FHL library in SLC and have someone pull up Tongan pedigree chart. It talkes it back to Hagoth (it may go back farther but it was several years ago I saw it and I dont remember how far vack from Hagoth it went)
I believe you, my GGG grandfather went to New Zealand for three years and taught the Mauri. He said the same thing you did. Their oral traditions told that they came from the east and many other Book of Mormon theories.
Ah, here come the Anti-Mormons full of love understanding and a quest for the truth (either that or they're just a bunch of demented sociopaths).
Demented sociopaths indeed😂🎯
"Kindly Correcting" This should be good.
Hallelujah Elder Holland, you called it.
Joseph Smith, Joseph F Smith and many early Church leaders, up to early 20th century, were unequivocally heartlanders.
How about if we (LDS) just stay together by admitting that Lehi and his posterity landed somewhere in the American Continent, and then spread over time across the whole continent. Why do we argue about where the BOM took place? It’s so ridiculous, and childish, and stupid. We are going to know it all. Hopefully really soon.
There’s truth to this :)
I just commented that in someone's post abet differently. As a kid I did think it would have been hard for Moroni to travel with those plates all the way from the south though lol, my little kid brain and logic.
It doesn’t matter for our salvation, but, I believe it is foundational to get the beginning of America as a choice land with the landing of Lehi’s people. All are Gods children, but history and locations are important, but, not as important as living the Gospel. North America fits prophecies and with a lens of changing climates and geography, heartland resonates with me, but, it may not be the full story!
The major problem with this is that Native Americans do not have a shred of Jewish dna. Their languages do not have any linguistic connections to Hebrew either.
I'm feeling pretty salty towards Pints with Aquinas right now with how they treated Robert Boylan.
Same - I was pumped for the debate too
Still salty over that burning books statement especially with him being a fellow Aussie. Shame on you Pints
Putting the fun in apologetics.
The Elder Holland clip was awesome.
25:20. What Cardon meant to say is the Bible is not a record of a lost civilization as The Book of Mormon is. The Bible was not assembled by a person who was the last survivor of a hated civilization and needed to bury the record to preserve it.
I freaking love Trent Horn
I’ll be sure to pass that along. -Kyle
@@TheCounselofTrentGod bless you brother. I’m currently taking the Rcia after 29 years of mormonism.
You guys are the people who said bad stuff about Pints with Aquinas, which I agreed with. That was you buddy
I love "The War in Heaven Veteran" hat. where can i get one?
Iranaeus (however it's spelled) was very early on 2nd-3rd century, & was pre- Catholic. For the first 1000 years the church was undivided. The Catholic Church came along in the 1000s when the bishop of Rome declared himself ruler of the church. They split from the Eastern church known as the Orthodox Church. So iranaeus was technically Orthodox not Catholic. Splitting hairs here lol but I'm a former Orthodox convert to the church & proper knowledge of church history is important 😂idk. Probably not even making sense am I🤣many similarities between Orthodox & LDS. Our doctrine of exaltation is the logical conclusion to the Orthodox idea of deification. We have much in common with them. More than the Catholics or protestants. Worth looking into guys👍
Let's not forget the temple imagery in MANY of the Orthodox sanctuaries' iconography and (if I'm not mistaken) ordinances.
That hat is awesome!
I need merch from this show
yes, you do.
You guys are awesome, but man it is so hard to stay engaged with the conversation when you are all talking over each other so much.
They are engaging, but their arguments are so lacking lol
I’m glad these guys clearly stated that they are not lds apologist and that they are only looking to have fun. Otherwise, I would feel sorry for them. Their arguments are very poor to be be taken seriously.
Was this recorded prior to the episode in which you responded to Matt Fradd saying the Mormon Doctrine/Scripture is demonic and he would burn copies of the book of Mormon? Seems like the praise is a strange pivot from that episode.
Yes. It says so in the disclaimer…
@@WARDRADIO Right, I was just listening to the audio, thanks for clarifying.
“Ah, the parenting press!” *clutches imaginary pearls* “Our pearls…”
Cardon, you’re too good at what you do😂
I never buy the Mormon archeology proof challenge. Knowing where a place is, in real life fact, does not decide or make faith, miracles, Religious or spiritual experiences true. It's totally irrelevant to the effect of The Book of Mormon, to the reader, if Zarahemla can be found or not. It does not make one iota of a difference. I have never had a burning desire to visit Jerusalem, Bethlehem or any other Religious site because I felt it has The Spirit there. If anything, the culprits who started this are those who wanted to go find it, when, nobody even gave them that calling. It's like what Gordon B Hinckley once said to a member who went seeking church history information. When that person took his findings to President Hinckley, Hinckley said to him, "Who gave you that calling?" Nobody gave that person that calling. The Church leaders have never said outright that Book of Mormon locations can be found, in real life...nor do other speakers in other churches.
Good points.
@@wes2176 Thanks. Kwaku made good points about The Book of Mormon, saying in it's own book, that evidence is no longer there. the anti-Mormons failed to see this and missed this. The Ward Radio guys could take on all of the anti-Mormons, at once, in a debate.
You're right. There will never be archaeological evidence proving that Christ rose from the grave. Only when He appears again.
@@WARDRADIO Interesting point....
Shroud of Turin
Even though they want to burn our books, these Catholics bros are way less cringe than the evangelicals, lol
It's because catholicism will soon turn into the universal church and accept everything as a one world religion. The bible specifically says do not change the word and was written over 4000 years ago. If I Believe in God I will do exactly what his word says and not my what my FEELINGs say. When was the Mormon book created? And what was the guys name who did it? And how did he get his theology to make his own version? We speak that way because it is urgent and we Love you guys. Love doesn't mean nice it means to speak gently, truthfully without sacrificing the word of God.
@@daviddick1784 it seems like you haven’t done your homework. Please spend some time studying our doctrine and beliefs before making comments like this.
@daviddick1784 nice out of context proof texting of Revelarions 22:18-19 bro.
I guess by that logic, you also believe that nothing after Deuteronomy 4:2 should be considered scripture either???
@TheRegimentalscot I'm not sure how you came up with that. I might be ignorant to what you are saying will you please explain?
@TheRegimentalscot just want to clarify I believe the whole Bible is the inherent word of God.
No Cardon, Aquinas is not anywhere near our theology.
We have a sign that says Welcome to Nahom. I don't think a Welcome to Zarahemla sign would work
I use to be in the Heartland camp! Then I watched through LDS truth claims and the scholarship said it not only needs to fit geography but it also needs to fit natural disasters, seasons of war and farming culture, old and new peoples and a literate people that farms and trades with eachother. A place that has kings and over kings. It also needs to line up with weapons and armour. And meso America is a bullseye in all these areas!
That is all excellent series
Yeah, sure! Was the Prophet of the Restoration named Joseph Smith or José Smith and the Hill Cumorah is not in Mesoamerica. Letter VII kind of disagrees with you.
@@user-yr9lt7dz8k have you seen it? Have you read John Sorensen? Did you know that the angel Moroni never called it the hill, Cumorha, and that Mormon said the hill cumorha was where he wanted to meet the Lamanite’s to fight, and to preserve the book he gave it to Moroni and sealed up all of his sources all of his books. There’s also documented people who have shipwreck in mesoamerica walked all the way to New York in 11 months. Don’t you think Moroni could of done that in the many many years he lived after his dad died in battle.
@@user-yr9lt7dz8k who am I for you to believe though we don’t know each other from Adam. But there is plenty of material out there to read on CZcams type in LDS truth claims there are 35 videos. The book of Mormon is covered in the 10 video to the 20th video. The dude provides slides and references, and you can dig in deeper by reading the scholarship yourself that he provides.
@@user-yr9lt7dz8k archeologists also found an engraving in stone of a king named Kish in the Chiapas. There is a King Kish Mentioned in Ether 10:17-18. Look it up on CZcams. There’s a video.
Great video guys
Great point about what to expect and people not knowing it. Hebrew writing has been found in North America. Nephite fortifications (trenches, with wooden posts, and piles of dirt) have been found in North America. Arm plates and chest plates have been found in North and Central America.
People should not use an argument like, "no archeological evidence has been found" if they have no clue what could be evidence.
Someone needs to remind Trent of all the brides Jesus has in the Catholic faith. And these are spiritual sealings as well. 😊
Now THIS is tea, lol
@@jacobdkeller Yep. I have a sister in law in a convent who is wed to our Lord.
Don’t worry. Pretty sure Trent never forgot about religious vocations. -Kyle
@@jacobdkeller Ya got it wrong. Christ is the bridegroom of the LDS Church. But thanks for playing. Chet, what has our contestant won?
@@paulblack1799 it must be really rough being a celibate spouse married to someone who is not even on planet Earth.
I love you guys, BUT I CANT HANDLE KWAKU'S ATTACKS ON THE NEFARIOUS MOVIE! 3:10 LOL 🤣
…. Dan McClellan …😂 .. sooner or later you guys are gonna have to address that Mormon story podcast interview.
Not surprised by Dan’s interview and his conclusions. Scholars or historians that put their politics above their faith seem to have the same MO with the post LDS critics. They want to be lovable and accepted and feed that instead of defending the truth claims worth defending.
Seriously, of all the people to promote and support.. Dehlin? I have no problem with engaging with people who ask questions etc. But the main promoter of misery and lies.. how does that square with Dan's obsession (albeit skewed) with 'data'?
Another day, another man that thinks he is wise because he is learned.
Go heartlanders!
31:00 I gotta say. Looking at that picture immediately makes you understand his motives 🤣
VincentNoot, great point. Does Trent listen to himself? Jesus Christ has an enormous number of wives and husbands according to himself. Roman Catholicism views Priests and Nuns as being married to Jesus Christ. Trent, your argument is an accusation against Jesus Christ.
The biggest problem is what Kwaku pointed out: "what are you looking for?" There is no way to know if what you're looking at is Nephite/Lamanite or something else. Different language. We have no context.
robbhays8077 Great comment. And did they read it to see what needs to be found?
52:00 CHILLS
14:30 As to archeology, we know where the BOM began and where it ended, the fact that there’s multiple plausible theories for where it took place in between is a strength, not a weakness.
Any other man would have withered the mobs like fig trees. He was calm as a summer's morn.
Hey I hope we can also recognize that Islam preserved western culture and history too! We have Islam to thank for knowing Plato!
The Eastern Orthodox Christians as well. They just painted an inaccurate picture utterly lacking detail and nuance.
in at least 2 Nibley books spoke about Origon living in 200 ad in the middle east " said that the early saints100+ years before beleaved that members living on the other side of the world with , . who we had no contact " .
.0
Really? Reference?
It bothers me that members of our church don't run to subscribe to Ward Radio, Thoughtful Faith, Stick of Joseph, David Alexander, and others. But instead, they can't get enough of the Hello Saints guy.
Share with them! They're coming around! We're growing like crazy right now!
@@WARDRADIO I will! Been with you guys for a long time and it's been amazing to see your growth!
GwPoKo, I wish I could say you are wrong; however, there might be many members who are doing/not doing the thing you denounced. We should definitely give our subscribes to believing fellow members over people talking us out of following Jesus Christ.
Hello Saints is terrible for several reasons. He called it idolatry to love your wife (specifically wanting that relationship to continue in heaven). He brings up accusations during his Book of Mormon episodes, even thoroughly refuted and baseless accusations. He does not read The Book of Mormon, his publicity is not helping anybody to actually hear the words of The Book of Mormon. The MyBookofMormonPodcast, CZcams channel and podcast at least had every word of The Book of Mormon being read. That one was done by an atheist. Pastor Jeff Mcoullah is setting up a ministry to talk us onto the broadway with him. That has nothing to do with curiosity and promoting understanding. To many christians a "ministry" means a business. Pastor Jeff is in it for money.
Just a small distinction: Origen is an Early Church Father, but not a saint nor is he considered a Doctor of the Church. So while a lot of his writings have immense value, us Catholics still see that some of his writings are suspect.
That's cool but that's not how his contemporaries saw him.
@@jacobmayberry1126 I’ll happily concede your point if you could give me a single instance of someone referring to him as a canonized saint or a Doctor of the Church.
@@KyleWhittington
Origen is considered by some Christian groups to be a Church Father.
1. Grafton 2011, p. 222.
2. Runia, David T. (1995). Philo and the Church Fathers: A Collection of Papers. Leiden, Germany: E. J. Brill. p. 118. ISBN 978-90-04-10355-9.
3. Pope Benedict XVI 2007, pp. 24-27.
4. Litfin, Bryan M. (2016) [2007]. Getting to Know the Church Fathers: An Evangelical Introduction. Grand Rapids, Michigan: Baker Academic. p. unpaginated. ISBN 978-1-4934-0478-0.
He is widely regarded as one of the most influential Christian theologians.
5. Olson 1999, p. 99.
His teachings were especially influential in the east, with Athanasius of Alexandria and the three Cappadocian Fathers being among his most devoted followers.
6. Olson 1999, p. 100.
Argument over the orthodoxy of Origen's teachings spawned the First Origenist Crisis in the late fourth century, in which he was attacked by Epiphanius of Salamis and Jerome but defended by Tyrannius Rufinus and John of Jerusalem. In 543, Emperor Justinian I condemned him as a heretic and ordered all his writings to be burned. The Second Council of Constantinople in 553 may have anathematized Origen, or it may have only condemned certain heretical teachings which claimed to be derived from Origen. His teachings on the pre-existence of souls were rejected by the Church.
7. Patrides, C. A. (October-December 1967). "The salvation of Satan". Journal of the History of Ideas. 28 (4): 467-478. doi:10.2307/2708524
@@KyleWhittington becoming a saint is something that happens long after someone dies correct?
@@jacobmayberry1126 not necessarily a long time, but always after death, yes.
YES! Safety For the Soul. Amazing talk by Holland. When Jesus returns and supports His church, Joseph will be vindicated.
31:17 a timestamp for myself because this made me laugh so much it hurt
Who is RFM?
31:00. Peter, Paul, etc could have had all of those motives too. We have less records from them than we have of Joseph Smith. Perhaps, they had those things going on.
Yeah Joseph Smith totally started a whole religion, exercising a genius mind to write several books that pass as scripture and suffering relentless persecution, all for a bit of sex near the end of his life. Instead of, you know, finding a prostitute.
22:50.The Meso American climate would destroy many things. The Lamanite hatred would also lead to the destruction of many things in any climate. The Lamanites exterminated the entire culture. For a Nephite to survive he had to renounce the Nephite culture.
5 mins in and they clearly.filmed this before pints exposed themselves
Yes... I mean... we DID put that in the visual disclaimer...
@WARDRADIO I "watch" this with my ear buds in at work with my phone screen turned down so I don't get in trouble, so I didn't see it haha sorry. It's wild that Pints seems so kind in that clip and goes 180 later. I feel like it was a publicity stunt to get the LDS audience looking and get into debates with our people
What did Pints do? Nevermind I found it lol ignore my ignorance please
Carden
That rant was perfect monty python and the
Holy Grail. "The fangs the fangs, look at the fangs" talking about the little rabbit
He looks more like miles teller older brother.
Just came from a trent horn video and read the comments. Sone people read LDS history and left, but then go to Catholicism... do these people just stop looking into history when its convenient?
Difference is Christian history actually happened. Mormon history …. Yea lol
@@ChristianKMP do you mean Joseph smith DIDN'T read golden plates from a hat about native american israelites and Adam and Eve being born in Missouri????
@Ward Radio at 32:29 you mention new research by Don Bradley and the accusations of marriages. Has that been published yet or did he let you know about this while he worked with you on the last few videos?
It’s coming….
3rd great grandfather had 3 wives assigned to him, in additon to the one he had when he left Tennessee, and 2 of them were sisters. Try dealing with those family dynamics.
I haven't watched this whole thing yet, but you guys should debate Pints with Aquinas. Robert Boylan from scriptural mormonism was going to do it but they were only going to give him 15 minutes to defend basically everything 🥴
Joseph Smith wasn’t a martyr. Joseph smith shot someone back. What did Philip do when they were stoning him? He forgave them and told them forgive them they not what they are doing.
He shot back when they murdered his brother in cold blood, dimwit. Read your history. Once he saw his brother was dead he fled. He tried to get Hyrum out of there but Hyrum refused to leave him. We're the thousands of other LDSs murdered by trinitarians martyrs? Like my forebearers? Or do you kill them and then continue to gatekeep their memory?
Heaven forbid you take actions to try and save your family and friends lives.
@@WARDRADIOSo seeking vengeance for his dead brother makes him a martyr? Roman’s 12:19 Do not take revenge, my dear friends, but leave room for God’s wrath, for it is written: “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,” says the Lord.
“Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil. (Matthew 5:38-42)
, “If somebody strikes you on the right cheek, turn to them the left cheek also.
@@dolanridgecommunitychurch7433Excellent answer! Thank you!
Oh my gosh! Jonah Barnes! I want your hat! Where do I get it?
Finally someone noticed!! ;) -JB
@@WARDRADIO Its legit! Where do I get it?
Ask why Robert backed out of the debate
Because PWA were going to engage in gish gallop. He’s posted the emails on his website.
Looks more like Ben Savage (boy meets world) in that picture.
Strange that Pints with Aquinas invited Mormons to defend their position, and no one was there to take up the challenge.
You would NEVER hear someone from the Church of Jesus Christ say "burn all the catholic books"
@@GwPoKo I have no idea what that has to do with anything, but something the Mormons forgot to mention is that it was the monks who kept the books written by the Mayas.
revertrevertz5438 I do not believe you because I looked for a way to contact them. I have not heard back from them.
@@Hamann9631 Ah yeah, they’ll totally go for the anonymous CZcams comment lol
Hey Cardon, as an academic myself, do we get everything wrong to you? What do we need to redeem ourselves? I see a recurring hatred of Academics. I don't think we all are that bad.
You're worse.
To me, in order for you to redeem yourself you must do several things, a) Stop worshipping the teachers union. b) Stop worshipping the Democratic party and more importantly, stop voting for people who think it's ok to abort nine-month-old fetuses. c) acknowledge that communism and socialism is evil and that the United States Constitution is better.
And stop pretending you know things outside your field. Mathematicians stick with math. Biologists with biology. We weren't born yesterday, we remember when the earth was 1 B years old, and acid rain was gonna kill us all, and phrenology could tell us your IQ and the most distant galaxies would be small and simple. Academia's track record is atrocious. The first step towards repair is humility.
@@WARDRADIO @weslines2176
Okay, Woah guys. I didn't expect this kind of reaction. I'm not saying Academics are perfect and get it right all the time. They clearly don't. The best academics are just ordinary scientists trying to interpret data and make conclusions about the world or existence or something they study. They are people too. Many are just trying their best. I'm just a lowly Accounting Professor and I research mergers and acquisitions. I also don't think it fair to assume that most academics are pretending to know things outside their field of study. I don't claim to know everything, but I do know a thing or two about accounting and I think it's fair to say that. It is also safe to say that yes you mentioned all the things academics got wrong but over time they eventually got things right due to further research. Time does a lot to reveal the errors of past academics. However, if the academics are honest in their efforts and objective in their view of data and their methods of study, I believe that they are less likely to "get things wrong." I wonder if you are conflating most academics with Leftism or Politicians.
How could there be so many possible locations when Joseph Smith literally claims to have found the gold plates near his home in New York? And several prophets have said that the Hill Cumorah near his home is the Hill Cumorah of the Book of Mormon. How can you guys possibly believe that the events of the Book or Mormon could have taken place anywhere else?
The hill will the plates in it isn't the same "Hill Cumorah" in the Book of Mormon. If you read the story. It isn't the same hill.
KUAKO = ARSENIO HALL
Was this recorded before yalls take down od PAs "burn the book of mormon" bullshit? Because yall are being really nice to him lol
Luke….you left out the fact that Joseph accepted how many guns? Joseph shot how many of the Mob??
two. One single shot, one six shot revolver, at most only three of the revolvers chambers fired. My memory is that two were injured. out of 2-300.
Lol. Please don't shoot at the mob that is coming to kill you
@@joshcooper7 So why does the Church never mention it? Elder Musket never mentions it??
@@joshcooper7ok, but then he is not a martyr
Hey Cardon, why didn't Heber just get sealed to the prophet? Why have his daughter sealed to the prophet and end her social life?
😂 why did you beat your wife?
What evidence is there her social life was ended?
@@ItsSnagret If you feel the question was unfair you can dispute the evidence. I was trying to be brief. Helen Mar admits in her journals that marriage to the prophet was a difficulty. Why would a father put their daughter through that, if he could just be sealed to the prophet himself?
The answer is, Cardon doesn't know history, and adoptive sealings weren't a thing until Brigham Young. There were some early teachings of dynastic sealings, but no male-male sealings.
Watching MM is painful due to the constant misinformation.
@@mcable217 What does Hellan admit in her journals? Please read the whole paragraph. She was never with smith without a chaperone. She wasn't adopted. She was married. It sounds like she was married for eternity not for time. though it may have been she would have been married when she was older. But there's no evidence of this.
It sounds like you are confusing things
@@biokido575 Cardon makes the claim in the video that polygamy was all about uniting the human race, and men were sealed to men, brothers to brothers. He does this in response to Trent bringing up Helen Mar Kimball.
1. I agree we do not have evidence that their relationship was sexual.
2. I agree that it was not adoptive.
Hellen says in her journals that she, "like a wild bird I longed for the freedom that was denied me." because she was not allowed by her father on the word of Joseph to attend dances.
My contention is that the apologetic that Cardon uses doesn't make any sense, because these were seen as some relationship even if for eternity only, and if he was just trying to unite everyone, he would have just sealed himself to Heber, or Heber's wife. Why Helen?
Sometimes the comments make my head hurt.
31:24 HAHAHAAAHAHA
I am going to try to give a fair critique of this from a non-LDS perspective. It'll probably be a thread. First, just want to say the format is painful. It isn't very serious, is tedious, and difficult to listen to. You all rarely get a coherent argument through without interrupting each other and wandering away from the point. This is the first video I have listened to from you all, so this might just be a stylistic choice, which isn't wrong. But it comes across as annoying to people outside your Church. The snideness just isn't appealing. That being said, first real critique, it is not good that there are a million places in which the Book of Mormon could have taken place. That isn't a good thing. If I was describing a crime scene to an investigator and gave such a vague description of the area that it could apply to basically anywhere. Now, that doesn't debunk the LDS faith, but it is in no way a point for it. It is a point against it. It is bad if your historical account could have occurred anywhere.
Second critique, Origen was not LDS. Origen does share some similarities with LDS theology, specifically on the pre-existence of souls, and creation from existent matter rather than ex-nihilo. But that is because Origen was a Platonist. We can trace all of Origen's heterodox beliefs directly to Neo-Platonic philosophy. Plato also held the pre-existence of souls, existing in the realm of the forms, from which we have our understanding now. Plato also held to the eternality of matter. Origen, following this intellectual tradition, and opposing Gnosticism, held these beliefs. But they were in no means held by almost anyone else, though he had many defenders as to his overall devotion to Christ. But Origen has many important dissimilarities. Specifically, that God the Father has no body and can never have a body, that Jesus Christ was truly the same God, commingled at conception. He did hold that the Son was Subordinate to the Father, but this again, comes directly from Platonism, where you have Theos, Logos, and Gnous. But this furthers the issue between Origen and LDS theology, as Theos, uncreated, eternal, trascendent, and immaterial being, is so high above ourselves that he is not of the same order as us at all, at least for Origen. Origen would never say that "As man is now, God once was." God, for Origen, was completely unchanging.
Also, while he does share some similarities, one can find similarities someplace in the early Church for almost anything. There were Christian Gnostics, who believed in the Demiurge, there were Christian pantheists, Christian polytheists who attempted to place Christ into the Roman Pantheon, and of course, early Trinitatarians, though strict Trinitarianism was yet to be formulated. But if you go searching for some Church Father to agree with almost any Christian sect today, you will find one, someplace and somewhere. But that is cherry-picking and is not actually reading the author to understand their intent. It is fallacious.
On lack of archeological work, honest question, can you point to a single piece of archeological evidence for the Book of Mormon in the New World? The Bible has a ton of correlations with archeology that even atheists would agree with. Does the Book of Mormon have one?
Also, I like the complete strawman from Kwaku about the damnation of pagans. Not like the Pope literally banned enslaving Native Americans or anything. Not like Spain sent missionaries to the indigenous at all. Nah those Spanish MISSIONS were just there for fun.
Another critique, all those photos of Smith's wives were taken long after Smiths death. So I am sure they were more attractive. But I do think it was a bit of a hit below the belt to decry a 14 year old marriage. While uncommon, very uncommon at the time, it wasn't altogether unheard of, and isn't necessary for the argument.
On polygamy, where Smith's sealing marriage's or not? How many sealings did Smith have with men? How many sealings of men to men occurred? I do not think anyone except the guy who appears to be zooming in gave a fair shake at this argument. The rest of you just strawmanned your way out of it. Was polygamy not part of early LDS history? Isn't it church teaching that it was allowed for the repopulation of the planet and the growth of the church? Why would that not have involved sex? Also there is a ton of evidence Joseph Smith was having sex with lots of women. Lots of women attest to it within Nauvoo. Why as Joseph Smith first sealed to Louisa Beaman and not Emma? Shouldn't Emma have been his first sealing if what you all is saying is true? Also, you all are acting like Smith married a couple of widows, he married like 49 women, most of whom were younger than him. And the whole Fanny Alger affair is also not a good look for him. You really failed to adequately address this issue.
Brothers and sisters please do more research on your own and not just listen to peoples opinion. So that in Jesus name Every knee will bow , every tongue will confess. He is the only way. You will never EARN your way to heaven. It is through him and when you know him you will be transformed and willingly serve and sacrafice for others and put yourself last. Read the actual bible and pray to him and see what happens.
amen!
@WARDRADIO lol. He thought we would disagree with you can't earn your way to heaven.
@joshcooper7 how do you believe we get to heaven?
7:35 I agree with Kwaku. But...some day, we will get access to the Catholic Archives, and we will find lots of scriptures that have been witheld, hidden, or "lost". I have a hard time believing that we don't have more than small snippets from Matt, Mark, Luke, John, Paul, James, Peter. I wonder if we only have what we have because the current new testament scriptures are so vague on the plain and simple things...
What, Santa Claus was a Catholic? Wow! I never knew there was a famous Catholic priest by the name of Saint Nick.
Yeah, man, during the inquisition, he was ALL OVER the place!
strictly speaking, he wasn't catholic. That is in the sense of the Roman catholic church. Only in the small c sense. He lived before the Big C roman catholic church
He was more Eastern Orthodox if I'm not mistaken
You guys should invite Trent horn on the show if you think he’s so wrong.. prove it!
I think it's better that Catholic apologists like Trent Horn etc. And LDS apologists should have a decent conversations so that people should be aware the similarities and differences between the two. Thank you.
Mormon Prophets
1. Why does the Mormon Church still teach that Joseph Smith was a true prophet of God after he made a false prophecy about a temple being built in Missouri in his generation (Doctrine and Covenants 84:1-5)?
2. Since the time when Brigham Young taught that both the moon and the sun were inhabited by people, has the Mormon Church ever found scientific evidence of that to be true (Journal of Discourses, 1870, v.13, p.271)?
3. Why did Brigham Young teach that Adam is “our Father and our God” when both the Bible and the Book of Mormon (Mormon 9:12) say that Adam is a creation of God (Journal of Discourses, Apr. 9, 1852, vol.1, p.50)?
4. If Brigham Young was a true prophet, how come one of your later prophets overturned his declaration which stated that the black man could never hold the priesthood in the LDS Church until after the resurrection of all other races (Journal of Discourses, Dec. 12, 1854, 2:142-143)?
5. Since the Bible’s test to determine whether someone is a true prophet of God is 100% accuracy in all his prophecies (Deuteronomy 18:20-22), has the LDS Church ever reconsidered its teaching that Joseph Smith and Brigham Young were true prophets?
6. Since the current LDS prophets sometimes contradict the former ones, how do you decide which one is correct?
7. Since there are several different contradictory accounts of Joseph Smith’s first vision, how did the LDS Church choose the correct one?
8. Can you show me in the Bible the LDS teaching that we must all stand before Joseph Smith on the Day of Judgment?
I'll take 1. Jesus made a prophecy about the son of man would return in the generation he was talking too somthing about their are some in his voice would not taste death till they saw the son of man returning in the clouds. So same word Joseph used generation Jesus used and the end hasn't happened yet I don't think we have a record of the son of man returning in the clouds. So if the son of God gets a pass I donr see why we can't extend one to his prophet.
And 8 ain't an lds teaching. Joseph would give his stewardship over to the aincent of days every dispensational prophet would do the same. Judgment is with the son. And if brigham said that shit just throw it out brigham was a bum. As most your list contains the bums teachings. Then the aincient of days gives the record of man over to Jesus.
As far as jos3phs man on the moon that a 2nd third hand account if your gonna submit that has evid3nce then you have to submit the 2 third hand account that joseph smith predicted the "night the stars fell"
Hey man u black Hebrew Isrealite cause number 1 was a favorite of the black hebs in NYC. I should of said Kanh! After all my statements. Then that shit would have some effect.
Why did Joseph Smith condone polygamy as an ordinance from God (Doctrine and Covenants 132) when the Book of Mormon had already condemned the practice (Jacob 1:15, 2:24)?
Looks like Fred Savage to me
Besides, we don't want people to believe in the Book of Mormon because of archeology (1 Corinthians 2--this weeks Come Follow Me)
Why does Luke not really seem to fit in and Kwaku like to take shots at him? Lol
Where can I get a war in heaven hat?
At your local retailers.
Was black skin a curse given to the lamanites?
Yes
Yes, absolutely. He did that so the white Nephites would have a clear way to recognize and stay away from them. God has given out many curses throughout history. God cursed Cain, God cursed Canaan and his lineage, God cursed the jews when Jesus made the fig tree wither in Jerusalem.
God also has given out blessings using marks like circumcision or blessings to the Nazarites for keeping long hair (see Samson). God also uniquely gave special blessings to the sons of Jacob.
Blessings and curses are nothing new.
God cursed me by making me extremely handsome, it's a curse, I assure you it's a curse.
If you actually 'read' the Book of Mormon you would know these things. In the future you should actually 'read' it rather than read about it on lame third-rate Anti-Mormon web pages written by lame third-rate Anti-Mormons who gather all of their information from lame third-hand sources.
@@fightingfortruth9806 you think Martin Luther kings vision of being judged by the content of our character rather than the color of our skin is biblical then? I mean the curse was on for a reason.