I realized I was more loving than the god I was supposed to worship - Michael Lecy
Vložit
- čas přidán 9. 01. 2024
- Today I spoke with Michael Lecy, who grew up in an evangelical Christian environment and became a pastor for 13 years before ultimately deconverting as the truth claims of Christianity fell apart.
We touched on many topics, including:
• Placing his faith in Jesus as his savior at a young age.
• Growing up in a charismatic church with emotional extremes and intense experiences.
• Realizing that the teachings of the church weren't working to actually help people in their real lives.
• Realizing that Christianity is a very self-centered worldview, often leaving believers callous to the needs of others because they, the Christians, are ultimately in a safe and glorious condition regarding their ultimate and eternal home.
• Starting to think through critical questions such as eternal conscious torment, how adverse childhood experiences affect people's ability to believe, the inerrancy of Scripture, genocide, sex slavery,
• Admitting that if god had been real, we would have to admit that he is a failure on the grand scale as well as our individual lives.
• Seeing that his Christian environment had kept critical information about the mythology that Christian is based on and poisoned the well about opposing viewpoints.
• Raising his kids without telling them they are wicked and deserve hell apart from god.
• Concluding that Christianity is a form of colonialism.
• Experiencing much more peace after deconversion than during his time as a Christian.
• Understanding that Christians are inherently nihilistic as they state or imply that this present world is relatively unimportant compared to the mythological life they are waiting for.
• How purity culture has created anxiety and shame as we consider our bodies, sexual desires, and relationships.
• The importance of trusting ourselves, advocating for our own agency, and letting go of our need for approval in what we believe.
• Seeing Christians shun and ostracize those who deconvert, but understanding that they are still in a mental prison themselves.
Thanks to Michael for sharing his story and insights!
________________________________
Connect with Michael:
• linktr.ee/thenehemiahcollective
• www.thethresholds.com/
IG:
@michaelecy
@acertainwandering
A certain wandering podcast:
• open.spotify.com/show/5b3LF1E...
• podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast...
A Certain Wandering FB page
• / acertainwandering
_________________________________________
Please subscribe to my other channels (many more channels and videos coming soon!)
linktr.ee/harmonicatheist
_________________________________________
Tim may be reached on FB at: harmonictim
Or by email at: harmonicatheist@yahoo.com
_________________________________________
Your support for my channel, Harmonic Atheist, is needed and appreciated!
One time
PayPal (preferred): paypal.me/harmonictim
Venmo: @harmonicatheist
Zelle email: harmonicatheist@yahoo.com
GoFundMe: www.gofundme.com/f/help-tim-s...
Monthly
/ harmonicatheist
Thanks!
--Tim
_________________________________________
Ending music by Eyal Raz, "Friends"
• Friends
_________________________________________
My charismatic pastor told us that secular college was the devil’s playground. The only honorable education was at bible college. When questioned about helping people by going into the medical field, he said there’s a world full of sinners who can do that work. What a crock of rubbish. I went to bible college for a short time. They were the most disingenuous people I had ever met. Went home after 2 months. I still wonder what could have been.
His stories about growing up in charismatic evangelicalism are giving me horrifying flashbacks of my childhood. Mine was exactly like that. I still have trouble accepting that I grew up in a cult. It does help to know other people did too, and that it really was deeply messed up. That wasn't just my imagination.
Exactly the same for me.
When I realized that I was a better person than God is.
yep, same. I also realized how silly it was that any human knew the nature or desires of a supposedly ineffable supreme being. Like, why does gawd talk to only some people?
Hello! I am from Romania (Europe). I always watch your videos. Here in Romania people just say that they are Orthodox Christians but they never go to church or read the bible etc. When someone ask me if I believe in God I just simply say YES because I don't like to debate this topic (about religion and God). I was practically raised an atheist and I still identify as one till this day (I am 26). I could never imagine joining a church/denomination/cult, they all scare me. I always get surprised by your guests and I hope they are all going to be okay. Thank you!!
Pretty much every country has
a significant population
of bandwagon cowards who
fear going against traditions .
@georgialovan Don't blame you they will tire you out with the nonsense they speak about!
You are NOT worthless. You are a human being, who deserves love and you don't deserve any punishment just for being a human. I hope you can find love in yourself, my friend.@@JESUSGreatrThan_all_LsThnJESUS
you should definitely go to church every once in a while. you'll be surprised. they are full of all sort of people. so i wonder what other misconceptions you have that keep you away from god.
Consider yourself lucky.
It is so true the amount of time you now have to actually rest and enjoy your life after leaving Christianity.
@leelee For sure!
Or to do “good works” instead of resting your “caboose” on a padded chair in a cult group.
Love Michael’s wife. She sounds like a wonderful person who has her priorities straight: raise kind children. Exactly! That’s it! And you don’t raise kind children who understand unconditional love by teaching the Bible. And you don’t want “obedient” children because that is a sign of a child who lives in fear
Most 'believers' are *better than their religion.*
Only if they could apply that loyalty to personal growth,development and ultimately the freedom and joy we experience 🎉
Yep... so much more peace and so much less stress as an unbeliever than as a believer. Christianity is psychologically toxic.
Except for the fact that most of my family and former “friends” are still trapped inside the doctrines. 😢
@@DM-zq8qy Yah.... those still trapped are certainly a source of stress and frustration.
So exciting to see ex Christians who can help with the mental trauma this leaves behind. His story is so relatable, and he tells it so well. I totally felt his wife's feelings that her job just got easier ❤
Right, people constantly say" if you can't take care of a kid/animal don't have one.tjats selfish " but "God" just leaves us here suffering 😢 💔
my angst about heaven was that i would get there, only to find that the afterlife is also a test for an afterlife, afterlife, and so on.
Oh damn, theist twilight zone nightmares !
Tim! I wish you health, wealth, happiness, and love in 2024. ❤
Ditto.
If only they understood how conflicting the concepts "free will" and "predestination" are. They'd drop out instantly. But alas mental gymnastics it is. Damn and indeed that tidbit hit really hard , The bit about: "the trauma-giver converts and the trauma-getter could never".
Great work, Tim Mills! I think I just fell in love with Michael Lecy! :) But seriously....wow. Confirmation after confirmation. And I couldn't help but think just how incredibly LUCKY his kiddos are to have such amazing parents. I was NOT nearly as fortunate. But I made it OUT of Christianity in time enough to have an amazing life WITHOUT looking through the 'prison window' of Christianity. Little gay boy growing up in a 'fundy church' was NOT fun! Michael spoke about issues I think are grossly UNDER-discussed regarding Christianity. One essentially being, I wonder.....how ANY of us made it past the idea that a 'god' who supposedly created the universe & all its magic, would choose to deliver THE most IMPORTANT message of all time to the humans it created, through.............BOOKS..........that weren't EVEN written until DECADES after the supposed events took place? Then..........THEN...........HOW LONG did it take to TRANSLATE all of that BS into ALL of the languages spoken on our planet? WTF happened to all those people who fell through the cracks while this 'bible' was being written & while it was being 'translated' into their language?!@#$ And if you speak more than one language, you have a firm understanding of just how "TRANSLATION" works. The very idea that this text, from this god, NEEDED to be translated, is light years beyond SUSPECT. This is something FEW people, including Atheists, are discussing. This is the giant "religion-eating crocodile" in the room that few Atheists/Agnostics/Deconstructionists are talking about. Nothing else really matters beyond this point if one really grasps it. And it's pretty simple. I'm glad I got OUT of this black hole as soon as I did. I find it incredibly SAD that so many people WASTED SO MUCH of their precious lives dealing with this BS. Another being just the overall fact that NONE of it makes any sense. Second, and I LOVE this one...that in essence there are things in this life that we humans are just NOT meant to know...(AND THAT IS PERFECTLY OKAY!!!) one being, what, if anything, is after this life. We are just NOT meant to know this. It cannot be truly, factually 'known'. We can 'believe' whatever we like but that doesn't negate the FACT that this is one thing we are evidently NOT meant to know. And THAT puts all the EMPHASIS on THIS LIFE....the here & now & makes us realize, this may be all we will ever know. So DON'T F@CK IT UP! My own father was SO wrapped up in 'the next life' that he completely & utterly DISMISSED this life & WASTED the only life he knew. I'm totally with Michael...I have as much "HOPE" as anyone that there'll be something GOOD for everyone in the next life, if there is one. I'm also good with just GOING TO FREAKIN' SLEEP & not waking up. Meanwhile, I'mma LIVE my best life here & now. Thank you, Tim, for having such great guests on your channel. Best to you & your 'life challenges' I know you're currently experiencing. Envisioning things eventually getting better for you & turning around. The kids will grow up & eventually figure things out on their own. They have you!
Very good point. I never understood how in the hell did a god speak to people thru a dead language and wrote most of it down after the fact. I never got that at all.
You hit us with it needing to be translated, I never thought of that at all. Very good observation.
What a beautiful story and I too found peace thru non belief in god only I was 60 yrs old when I awoke😊
Glad you made it out!! Enjoy your journey
Better late than never...enjoy the freedom.
50:28 “All I need to do is raise kind children.” (❤️ to you and your wife & family!)
This was 🔥 two sharp minds demonstrating their intellectual prowess. Great video. Something I think is often understated is the freedom and reduction of stress after leaving these religious worldviews.
Wow this interview really resonated with me, I found myself really relating to his experiences and the fact that he’s a mental health counselor (I’m a social worker), and his parenting of Neurodivergent kids (my kids are all on the Autism spectrum), and his experiences with multiple different churches as well as his youth group experiences. I found him really honest and relatable. Appreciation for this guest and him sharing his story. ❤
55:33 I keep replaying this short story, because it's genuinely so sweet.
I'm so happy that's the kind of experience the kids are allowed to have.
Especially juxtaposed with the childhood they would have had, based on Michael's descriptions.
He described Christianity completely consuming him as a parent, and basically robbing his children of their father...instilling such pressure for his children to be properly Christian, that comparing them to other "more Christian" children was inevitable. Disappointment was inevitable, and the resulting conditional love would have been inevitable (even if he never felt like his love was conditional, in practice that's what happens).
Being a Christian is the most important thing ever. A relationship to God & Jesus is more important than any human relationship, even between child & parent...so how can it *not* have the power to interfere?
It's especially cruel to put such pressure on children to be proper Christians, because there isn't any evidence and in fact there's actively evidence against the things you're demanding they believe in...paying attention to reality and using the brain they were forced to be born with means concluding Christianity isn't true, so they are set up to fail.
Being set up to fail is bad enough, but the cost of failure in this case is literally the highest cost ever...
It also makes sense that Michael felt extreme guilt (another thing that would have unavoidably interfered with their relationship)...I've always been kind of confused by the seeming lack of Christians who realize they are giving birth to children who could end up going to Hell.
Like, I won't even have children because the level of suffering they will likely experience during their lifetime on Earth is unacceptable to me. 120 years max, though.
If I truly believed INFINITE years of suffering was on the table...? Holy shit, that fear & guilt would consume me.
Especially knowing how powerless I truly am to make sure a person believes the right things by the time they die. Even if God & Hell exist, we still have no clue how to avoid Hell....or if it's even possible.
Great interview! I still don’t know where I’m falling spiritually but it’s really enlightening to hear from different people and their different experiences with religion and life.
Definitely, most people are more loving than god. Not even Hitler could have drowned the whole world.
Another gem😊
6 min in and i already adore this guy
Excellent guest & interview! Super clear & insightful without going down too many rabbit trails. Appreciate that in an extended interview.
You find some great guests, Tim! Mr. Lecy is so brightly positive and vivacious. You can see in your mind's eye how fervent a believer he must have been...and how severely he worried his pastors when he believed! I especially liked how you both agreed deconstructing took a huge load off your shoulders, and am almost envious that, as a lifelong non-believer, I never got to experience that. I say "almost" because you both also made it clear how difficult and trying it was getting there. As with all your deconstruction guests, their stories along with yours open a world to me quite different from my own. That's a real gift and many thanks.
Usually I can't listen to her interview this long but this one kept me interested Great stuff.
Fantastic interview!! Michael, you're incredibly articulate and insightful. I wish my family would be open to hearing your story because you're so in line with my own thinking. Thank you, gentlemen.
Keep going ❤️
Soooooo good 👍
The Abrahamic faiths are, at their very core, self contradictory. You need to embrace a very deep irrationality in order to make the mind believe in the paradoxes they contain.
One aspect you both discussed really hit home for me. Outside of the academic reasons, council of nicaea, mithra, no proof of Christ et al, it was just the simply fact that for the 80-100 yrs we are here....What? If you don't get it right you're subject to eternal suffering and torment for eons upon eons? No sense of justice whatsoever.
When I heard about 60 grand a year with a Master of Theology with the possibility of more?, that is enough to have someone take up the job even if they didn't believe a word of it. I wonder how many preachers are simply using the religion as a "grift", as way to stay in the middle class else face becoming a clerk at Wal-Mart or getting stuck in fast food?
Excellent interview, thank you!
Good deconversion story. 1:03:38. Good thing to say. What a great mentor.
It’s very interesting his experience and history!
Wow! A lot of the things you are saying about people who deconstruct applies to me.
I am still working through some of the lingering effects of purity culture.
I don't feel confident having my own beliefs (especially anything that is contrary to Christianity which I feel must be proved with 100% certainty, which is exhausting)
I see the problem of evil so strongly now that I wish I could go back to "ignorance is bliss" because now I feel obligated to do something to fix the suffering in the world, but I don't really know how to do that.
I actually did have a strong belief and hope in the after life, and life being finite is something I still haven't fully come to terms with
Thanks for sharing your story. It gives me hope that I can reach some of my friends and family still lost in the “matrix” of religion.
Great interview thank you both.
So much resonates here. When I realised I'd been deceived then it was like a conversion experience. I appreciate so much the time I've got back from not having to go to church. But ultimately realising that this life is all we have. In 100 years time I won't be here and no-one will remember me. So what we do in this life doesn't really matter... Apart from making it meaningful for me... Which is spending time with my friends and family and doing what makes me happy. And that is so freeing.
Hi, Sarah, if you'd ever consider sharing your story, feel free to add me on FB and reach out there.
facebook.com/harmonictim
I cannot begin to tell you how much I've enjoyed this video. Thank you, Micheal and Tim.
Thank you Tim for another wonderful interview! This was one of my very favorite interviews.
Michael threw in at the very end of the interview what some might consider a bomb, and that is his mention of using Joseph Campbell in his "spiritual" directing. I found that interesting because for me, it was watching the documentary of Bill Moyers interviewing Joseph Campbell that changed the way I thought about my young evangelic christian beliefs back in the day and that series was very influential in my de-conversion. Since then, though, I have heard several people knowledgeable in psychology be very critical of Joseph Campbell. I am curious if Michael has had push back from others for his use of Joseph Campbell ideas, and actually the use of the phrase "Spiritual" and how he defends them. I would be very happy if at least some of Joseph Campbell's ideas could be redeemed and I would be interested in hearing more about Michael's spiritual directing.
Joseph Campbell is great at breaking down myths and so on. Like Carl Jung, too.😊
I could relate to a lot of that. Great interview and guest.
Church is not the answer it is a cult of mythology.
What a wonderful interview! Michael, you were a terrific, articulate guest. You might want to think of death this way: What
bothered you before you were born. Death: same.
Thank you, Tim, as always.
Really enjoyed this one. Michael has a knack for conveying his thoughts verbally. But so do you. I saw your appearance on stacie's mom podcast. You kind of pulled them thru that one, but I'm sure they'll improve. Although i prefer your podcast over most others, and I'm sure it'll keep growing.
Outstanding 😊😊😊
Excellent interview. Thank you guys!
Thank you for sharing this interesting video:).
Great interview! I learned a lot! Thanks!🤗
Great interview.
Yes! LOVE Michael! Just being able to say “we made a mistake moving here” is antithetical to toxic evangelicalism. So refreshing to admit a mistake instead of trying to pretend it was all for some bigger good or part of “god’s plan.” So much toxic individualism and willful ignorance.
god has far more sins and transgressions to confess to me than me to him 😂
11:00. Definitely yes. And again at 24:11.
24:10 I thought the same about that.
The reason why christians justify the horrific hell doctrine for example is because they them self has a "free pass" away from it. They have the ticket in to the cozy and nice heaven so why bother about all the people who will suffer in hell for eternity.
If you ask a christian about the islamic hell they will say that that thing is evil and unjust.
And Allah is a horrible and bad diety.
But is it really that much difference between Allah and the christian God? They both demands faithfulness and submission dont they?
Religion is like having a mafia boss or a cartel boss in your neighborhood. Its fine and ok as long as your his buddy. As long your on his side.
If not he will come after you sooner or later and hit you really hard.
Well said. I think about this a lot. I also sometimes go to a dark place in my head and wonder if a decent number of these people have some sadistic impulses and actually ENJOY the idea of people (those who disagree with and/or challenge their beliefs) suffering eternal torment and anguish. I don’t want to be right but I wonder if it says something really dark about them.
I started believing in God again and I am miserable. Was happier as an atheist. Yes, God is a monster, but I like Jewish culture.
So it was an emotional factor that made you believe again? Not facts? Couldn’t you find a secular community to get that emotional connection?
You can be a secular Jew. A lot of Jewish people don’t believe in a god but are apart of the culture.
You can practice any culture without believing any of their religious gods is superstitions!
There is an idea I have been toying with of using the word "god" to mean something like "love" which waters down the definition, but it may be a way to keep the comfort of a social circle without believing harmful doctrines
45:04 Yes, there have to be MANY (overpaid) clergy types still pretending they aren’t lying.
What do you think about transcendental argument, are you familiar with Jay Dyer?
How can one reach out to you to ask questions and get put on a list to be on your channel? Ty.
It’s in the description. 👍
You are the God you’re to worship.
the disaster of lack of basic religious education.
makes me wonder if charismatic churches are really satanic.
💋
The bible is a man made book with man made wisdom (Kain and Abel) and man made fallacies :
+ light wasn't there before the sun
+ the earth wasn't there before the sun
+ Adam and Eve didn't exist
+ insects have six legs not four legs
+ the value of Pi isn't 3
+ homosexuality is not a seduction by a satan, but a natural born healthy sexual orientation with an evolutionary sense
+ the "firmament" is not a solid "roof" over the world
+ the moon doesn't produce visible light
+ etc etc
If the bible would be inspired by god it would be without fallacies, but it isn't.
Plants weren’t made before the sun. Reading Genesis and Exodus today makes me cry. X rated stuff.
@@DM-zq8qy Exactly.
It's important to approach discussions about God with humility and respect for different perspectives and you have just set yourself up as higher than God .God help you ... God is infinite and beyond human comprehension and the finite nature of your mind is what makes you not capable of fullt grasping the vastness and complexity of a God
Support Palestine but please not Hamas!!!! Also support and love Israelis and others
Sex slavery is CLEARLY described in Numbers 31. God ordered it! 🙈🥲 28:00
Paraphrasing Brandon from Mindshift in his video going over some Bible verses, "Uh oh, it's from Numbers, that's never good." 😬