Lab Notes - Alternative glassware protection for sodium production (Successful) - August 31st 2018
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- čas přidán 5. 09. 2024
- In this lab notes videos we explore alternative means to protect glassware for the sodium production reaction.
Slow heating with aluminum powder proved very effective. But lithium metal was determined to work best.
Related Videos:
Previous lab notes on making sodium: • Lab Notes - Successful...
Previous very crappy video on getting lithium from an energizer battery: • Get Lithium Metal From...
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This man has expanded the amateur chemist community, deserves a lot of recognition
Currently testing various alcohols, most don't work, and the few that do stop working before all the sodium is converted. Still investigating.
Could you try ceramics?
I think it wouldn’t withstand the temperatures required?!
There are some high temperature not so porus ceramic contairs out there they are expensive but im pretty sure the exist.
The main issue is expensive. So far this series was about producing sodium using cheap tools and chemicals avaliable to anateur. If you wish to make sodium using expensive contraptions, there are several ways.
But the price of purchisng glassware many times the will be destroyed needs to be taken into acount (its also expensive.)
I enjoy all of your videos but this R&D series is some of the most interesting stuff you've done imho.
wow, the beggining of this project was a total mess but u kept on it and u made it happen, thank you for being so devoted to chemistry and spending all of this time to science
You succeeded in getting the reaction you wanted without destroying your glass and still kept on trying to get the initial sodium charge without damaging glass. That is some serious dedication to the community and extremely selfless work. Seems like every week you remind us what a decent person you are! Great vid and thank you for sharing all this.
"The next major problem I wanted to address is perhaps the most important of all..."
I was *so* expecting you to talk about flies.
I admire your work! It is so satisfying to see the spheres of pure sodium!
Could we use stainless steel for the vessel?
Yes. But it would be hard to stir since it's magnetic. You also can't see what you're doing. As said in earlier lab notes videos, i'm trying to stick to apparatus that's easily accessible by the amateur.
316 stainless isnt magnetic, but may form internal eddy currents that absorb some of the energy from the stirrer. Worth a try
or at the least make the bottom stainless and the top glass.
That's why?! I was wondering too.. magnetic stirrer. Wouldn't have guessed.
Hey, could sodium oxide be heated in a fruit can with hydrogen gas?
What about an overhead stirrer? I found a cheap one on eBay and the standard stirrer can be exchanged for PTFE one. I got even PTFE stirrer stopper with seal, though I am not sure about its life span for heavy duty applications like yours. I use the overhead stirrer routinely for mixing dense solutions because I got frustrated of the stirbar just wiggling on the edge...
Oh man, the dead fly aside makes for some good belly laughs!
Hahahahahahha
For every thinker, tinkerer, and curious person out there, documenting things like this, in this detail, is valuable in ways and to a degree that I can't even properly express. Thanks again for all you do.
I'm not a chemist, but I subscribe because I like watching magic.
"5 to 10% of your research ideas should be crazy because that keeps you from being trapped in a rigid framework. And once every year or so when your crazy idea DOES work, it's AWESOME!"
I am supporting other people, but I am ashamed to admit that so far you're not among them. You really deserve it for every bit of excellent work that you're giving us with no strings attached.
I don’t own any neighbors so I think I am fine but the people who live next to me might get upset
I don't suppose you'd consider having an "organic" corner of your lab for a venus fly trap or something? Just a thought hahaha, keep up the good work man, love seeing the progress being made!!
lol u have chinese name!!
For myself at least, this recent method of producing sodium metal and protecting the involved glassware is by far your most exciting achievement. Nice work.
mason jars can withstand heat . They are put in a pressure cooker . They get boiling apple butter poured into a cold jar . They get boiled .You can silver plate the rings and flats as well
pay few buck for lithium batteries or pay few bucks for a flask
Plan B is always good
birdrage
NurdRage
I enjoy these "Alchemy" of sodium metal production videos!
Ever since your initial production I owe you the world!
Although I can obtain Sodium metal through other means (*cough cough* friends of friends), it's not as reliable as the initial thermal production.
I believe your research into this topic is of vital important to our community
Thank you!
These videos are very interesting, keep up the good work!
Haha! So funny, just as you mentioned the failures using a beaker, the very first thought that came to my mind was trying a mason jar. XD
It was funny how at random "hey is that a dead fly in my bubbler?"
8:35 well..you could use lithium metal to dry-
Oh.
Red foshfor iodin in cristal methanol ,
Psefgoefedrine hidrohlorid and sulfat
Taylen syper izy proces hitler meth!!!
what
lol.
i think i know what that means
This series is great, it's all way over my head but I really enjoy watching the processes and reactions.
Thank you for making these lab notes videos. It is fascinating to see the process. It also makes one appreciate how much effort goes into figuring out a reaction and how many different paths have to be taken to reach a satisfying result. :)
This has been and is a really cool and interesting project. The more so because you aren't just demonstrating an already documented process, but developing something new. I think it would neat if one of the other amatuer chemistry channels like Nile Red or Cody's Lab ran this process to demonstrate that it could be indepentently dublicated. Not because I don't think it works, but doing that is an important part of discoveries in research science and besides, I'm sure they can always use some extra sodium metal for some experiment or other. One question (which may have touched on) Would this process work to make potassium metal as well from potassium hydroxide?
This method was originally used to obtain K if I'm not wrong. It's actually easier with K than Na.
"Am I known in the insect world as the Doctor Kevorkian of depressed critters?!"
_loses it, just loses it_
Thank you, I really needed a laugh!
😂😂😂😂😂😂
Very nice, can't wait for the next part. I had proposed using the sodium/magnesium oxide aggregate directly as a dryer and initiator in the sodium reaction, but using lithium is even better.
I figured adding a fine mesh, is a successful method to prevent the suicide of critters, keeps fruit flies out of the scented baby oil.
Hey NurdRage great video as always! but now that I'm actually free from my semester and don't have to deal with physical chemistry anymore, the first thing that I wondered watching the video is what are you doing with the side products of the reaction. Is there a way to recover some of the starting material or it just goes all straight into waste? And on that note, are the wastes relatively clean or they need to be treated for toxicity or something?
I've already said it in the begining but great video as always, seeing your work inspires me to keep going on my career and you were actually the one who made me pick it in first place! Good luck on keeping the optimization
EPIRB emergency position locator devices can contain four D sized lithium primary cells.They are touchy to open,but hold grams of metal each.Cost Gard regs, require replacing every few years.People that service these, are often happy to get rid of them.
Awesome stuff! Can't wait for a how-to video.
A white background would be helpful behind the flasks in the damage comparison.
Always some of the best videos on CZcams. Thanks. I have a somewhat related question about protecting my lab equipment. What is the best way to protect my vacuum pump when used while distilling nitric acid? A vacuum cold filter is recommended, but there is almost nothing to be found on the subject. I use a Gast vacuum pump - a great lab tool that was bought used for $20, and do not want to damage the pump with it being exposed to corrosive vapors.
ir's actually called a "cold trap", if you google around that you'll have better luck finding info on it.
Are you sure that the damage to the flask is chemical and not mechanical (by the very hard aluminium oxide coating on the metal)? It's hard to tell on camera.
Matthias B. It looks more like glass being dissolved. Besides that the oxide it does not seem to have much force being pushed into the glass. At least not enough to damage it. Last point, it would be odd for it to only scratch an asymmetrical area of it,
Have you tried using a gallium aluminum/magnesium alloy for this reaction? I was interested in that at one point since gallium gets rid of the pesky surface oxide to increase reactivity.
gallium is ludicrously expensive and since it'll be lost in the reaction i decided against trying it.
How about mercury?
Just kidding I know you wont use mercury because of its own downsides. but I will point out that the first time potassium metal was ever isolated was using mercury as a cathode.
obvious safety issues with mercury. Mercury also alloys with sodium very well so your subsequent sodium produced will have mercury contamination. This in turn will produce extremely toxic organomercury compounds if you then use your sodium in organic chemistry reactions. So probably not a good idea to do it.
very true, mercury is awesome. The stuff was downright magical ( a *liquid metal* afterall) when it was first discovered and actually has tremendously useful applications on top. If it only it wasn't viciously toxic.
"Is that a dead fly in my bubbler?" What a nice choleric outbreak! :)
i'm really enjoying these lab notes episodes!
Dr Kevorkian of Depressed Critters - your first alternate channel! Patreon would be apeshit.
Hello NurdRage,
I just wanted to take the time to say thank you for all your hard work. I wish I could thank you by donating money, but unfortunately I just dont have the funds. I appreciate all the hard work and dedication you put into this channel.
I love this new lab notes format!
Keep up the good work!:)
@Nurdrage
TOM!
TOM
@@ficolas2 Tom?
@@franglish9265 Yes, Tom!
These exploration videos are the best.
Wow I actually thought about Lithium metal from batteries, about 10 seconds before you said it :D
I died when you started yelling about the fly xD
Love the video as always!!
Fantastic work! one thing ... ever thought about cleaning or replacing that manky stir-bar?
Even though it didn't work, that aluminum approach was brilliant! Also, I know its the topic of the next video, but which alcohol have you been using? I would assume it's one of the 4 you keep showing but I don't think you've actually mentioned which one works best yet.
I'm not 100% on this, but I'm pretty sure it has been mentioned and it's the tertiary amyl alchohol.
The secret of how to do the "fire in the hole" sodium reaction without your neighbours complsining is to wait for "firework night" in the UK we have November 5th, the Yanks have July 4th, you must have an evening in Canada too where it's acceptable to cause unholy stenches with mild explosives.
Haha I was thinking of using lithium too, far easier to obtain ... but would it form an unseparable alloy with sodium?
There's also the problem of the alcohol catalyst ... please find easier to obtain alternatives nurdrage!!! Love your videos!
freakin bug whisperer man
Haahhahahaah
Crazy idea, but what would silicates do for drying out the sodium hydroxide?
I also wonder about Zeolites like aluminosilicate for drying out the sodium hydroxide? I guess they are expensive compared to other options or may have other issues.
Will you make a complete guide when everything is working?
I damn love your videos, studying chemistry and those vids help a lot. I even showed your vids to my teachers and they like them. A LOT.
his rant over insects committing suicide in his apparatus made me laugh for quite a while, because it is a recurring theme and it usually doesnt bother him but breaking point was reached! so funny! love the chemistry and usually perform his experiments myself after his vids, great channel, live long and prosper butyl bugsenator lithium!
Rather than risk nice glassware, you might be able to use Pyrex measuring cups, though even some Pyrex cups are fakes.
There might be some in Goodwill-type stores.
Would a stainless steel reaction vessel work? I have access to 304 and 316L and depending on the dimensions required I could probably fabricate something if you're interested.
Thanks for the offer. While it would indeed work i would prefer to find a method that was easily accessible to the amateur. The pre-drying with sodium or lithium is a bit of a hassle, but it's easily done by the amateur and only requires a few extra hours of heating time.
Interesting as always - Thank you
HAHA that ElectroBOOM style fly rant
The most successful chemists in history... Were also a bit insane. ;)
Seven Proxies I remember reading a story about a chemist (A. G. Streng) that was completely mad. He made FOOF (dioxygen diflouride), an extremely explosive compound, and, as if that wasn’t enough, he did all sorts of experiments on it (with obvious conclusions), and lived to tell it! More details at blogs.sciencemag.org/pipeline/archives/2010/02/23/things_i_wont_work_with_dioxygen_difluoride.
Definitely, the best is an intermediate level of madness.
Just FYI in some states if you start to buy large amounts of lithium batteries you can be monitored as a meth maker. Just like buying large amounts of Sudafed.
Yeah, but you don't need large amounts of lithium batteries - you only need to use the lithium *once*, to make the first batch of sodium. Once you've got sodium, it's a much better drying agent anyway!
As you approach a deeper understanding of the natural world, the closer you get to become the lord of the flies.
I love your work!
It's too mainstream for Nurdrage to use sodium hydroxide as a base, so he uses it as an acid. To dissolve another alkali metal!
Canning jars, AKA mason jars are not normal soda-lime glass since they can take sudden temperature spikes without cracking. They are also not tempered soda-lime glass since the will chip on their casting edge without shattering. They are certainly not Pyrex or another borosilicate glass, based on their temperatures. I would suspect that they are some form of hybrid that is tempered and would place good Mason jars as thermally trustworthy as cheap/questionable beakers.
More exploration using a propane torch or Bunsen burner to see if you can melt a hole in the side without the glass cracking would be the ultimate thermal test, but considering that they are cast glass and not blown, we do know that they are not to be trusted like a real borosilicate beaker. However, I have seen complex glassware that was cast instead of blown that could take thermal shocks like borosilicate would, but if you tried to melt a hole or do glass blowing to modify them they would crack.
Sound like a line of experiments to find out their properties is needed.
"The Doctor Kevorkian of depressed critters" lol!
Lithium metal can also be bought on eBay. It is much less expensive and the quality is good.
BIRDRAGE
Could you please describe in more detail the run that got you "solgel"?
@11:04 for that freakin fly!
You could use silver nitrate and an aldehyde to coat the glass wear then wash the aldehyde out leaving a silver precipitate on glass then perform these reactions. Then remove said silver nitrate precipitate by reacting it with nitric acid as so: Ag + 2 HNO3 - AgNO3 + NO2 + H2O (use of concentrated nitric acid)
Silver is more expensive than glass
@@user-py9cy1sy9u it's cheaper to buy a bottle of silver nitrate for multiple uses than it is to replace glass ware however conc nitric acid would run the cost up thinking about it
the silver coating would get ripped off by the stir bar and other solids as the flask mixes. it's a total non-starter.
is copper reactive in this reaction? you can electroplate copper onto the flask using copper paint
Same problem, I'd imagine. Thin coatings would be mechanically worn by the mixing.
A solid metal vessel might work (I think this was brought up by NurdRage in a previous video), but then you can't monitor the progress.
Is the aluminum reaction inhibited by oxide formation? Might a drop of Hg or Ga help?
Cheers,
Mark
************************
soooo how about damage-proofing the flask by « plating » it? (like the silver mirror but with a metal that may be impervious to NaOH - copper maybe?)
He said in a previous video that the stirring and metal present world quickly wreck a silver coating, and tougher coatings are beyond the reach of the amateur.
What's about mg powder with Mineral oil and Naoh with 5% water (which have to also have to be catalysed by mg)?
Put the Naoh in the flask put 10% of the amount of Naoh in water extra in it, mix the mg as powder under one part of Mineral oil, the other u Dump in the naoh/water flask slowly and start stiring it. And heat it to 60-70c° and hold the temperature continuous then stir the mg/oil Mix until each Drop of it contains particles of mg and drip it slowly in the flask.
Would removing the aluminium oxide beforehand by means of a mercury salt have any effect on the drying process? That way one could possible dry at room temperature.
Thank you so much for showing your process with this project. I have learned far more from you and Nile red then I ever did with my horrible chemistry treachery. That was both informative and hilarious. Stupid suicidal flies.
Hey i am sorry to ask a question thats off topic, but NR, can one use NaHSO4 instead of H2SO4 in the making of copper sulfate using electrochemistry? (As opposed to the 5ml of H2SO4 and 30ml H2O for the solution... would say, 15g of the above salt, and the same vol of water, be a viable approach?) thank you and great video btw 👍🏻
U used Lithium as i suggested!!
Nurdrage, do you think pyrex flasks are (much) better then the borosilicate flasks from Deschem (china)? Thank you for your time.
On ebay and stuff the glassware from china is more expensive than the ones made here in germany, bought from german online shops.
A no-name, borosilicate erlenmeyer flask made in germany with 1000ml volume(just a value to compare prices at) is ~7€ plus shipping for example, a brand name duran(thats literally the guys that invented borosilicate glass) flask is ~11€, again plus shipping and an ebay flask made in china is still around 10€, including shipping in that case.
Thats without VAT, but you'll have to pay the same amount you'd pay in VAT in import fees on the chinese flasks, so it would even out.
So theres little reason at all to buy chinese glassware in my case.
I don't know if its the same for the US and whatnot, but thats kinda the case here.
If the aluminum can reduce sodium from hydroxide (potentially), how can this be done? I mean, probably you'll need to dissolve protective layer on aluminum pieces...
Would a Silver or Copper mirror protect the glass.
The sodium metal challenge is tearing up the internet, get a gumball sized piece of sodium metal and chew it.
Seriously don't do this.
Is purchasing sodium metal that difficult to do? It looks like there are even sellers on Amazon for it.
Would anhydrous Epsom salt or Lithium aluminum hydride work to deal with the water in the sodium hydroxide?
Is it oxygen from the air the problem with the beaker or is it humidity from the air or even both?
Would this process be profitable commercially compared to the electrolysis method currently used?
How about heating the sodium hydroxide granules to drive off the water?
NurdRage "piece of s***" me "wow! swearing! thats a first! living up to your name fella"
The main problem of the lithium is that it will contaminate the sodium as the two metals have good mutual solubility.
Do you think there is an easy method that could purify the Sodium from Lithium?
If it's an issue, use the thermochemical dioxane method to make your initial charge of sodium or sacrifice a flask, maybe use aluminum powder to reduce the damage.
@@NurdRage Thanks for your answer!
In fact i was just asking if there is a chemical way to separate lithium from sodium (no particular reason, i was just wondering).
The only way i found was to distill the sodium.
Not that i know of. The only chemical alternative i can think of is to destroy the lithium by boiling the sodium metal with dioxane and some sodium hydroxide and tertiary alcohol. You essentially get a metal displacement reaction where the lithium is displaced by sodium. The dioxane solution will now have lithium hydroxide and alkoxides.
Can you try sucre and sodium hydroxide
9:11 lol there's a dead fly floating around in your glassware. Insects are attracted to the strangest things, my uranium glass collection is full of dead flies.
Without a condenser, won't the alcohol boil away? I tried this reaction several years ago, back when you were making potassium and using tetrahydronaphthalene instead of mineral oil. I tried it with mineral oil and formed a very small amount of sodium metal, but I was constantly fighting the alcohol evaporation because I didn't have a condenser. Still remarkable though considering I did it in a baby food jar... Also, that video no longer exists on youtube.
could you splutter deposit a thin gold layer on the glassware to protect it?
is sputtering gold within the reach of the amateur chemist? lol
Could the 18650's in old laptop batteries be a very cheap source of lithium.
What about just melting table salt in a metal can on an electric heater and then just sticking a pencil lead hooked to a battery? Electrolisis is super innefficient but its simple to do
> simple to do
Alright, do it.
Is it possible to electrolize NaCl in mineral oil or other organic (non-water solutions) ?
Could silver coating the glassware help ? As far as I remember, you did show how to do that
What about an Al-Hg amalgam for drying the NaOH?
possibly treat aluminum powder with some NaOH solution to etch the Al, wash, treat with .25% HgCl2 solution and vacuum filter the now- amalgamated Al powder?
This would keep the Hg2+ waste to a minimum
Just an idea :)
Hang on - where did the use of magnesium go? I mean - was it added after drying with lithium? Or is it lithium that is replacing the magnesium as a reducing agent? I'm very confused.
Have you considered a physico-chemical drying of NaOH under vacuum, over P2O5 with some heating applied?
His aim is to make this easier for the amateur chemist. P2O5 is really hard to get.
Make a way to copper coat the inside of a hole for PCB making. Please please please
I believe they use copper electroplating baths for this. Simply hook up the insulating fiberglass board to the cathode, and copper will start plating inside the vias (it will also plate the non-conductive edges of the board, but this can easily be cut-off afterwards XD).
I believe he has started he doesn't want to coat the vessel in any opaque substance so that the reaction can be visible and more easily controlled.
@MRLT how is the copper gonna stick to the fiberglass on its own? Like you said it's insulating. The vias need to be chemically coated with copper first
That is correct. You first have to use a chemical bath to coat them with copper and then thicken the copper layer via electroplating.
@jort93z do you know a process?
excess of Epsom salt? its a magnessium comound it could add to yield and it can dry it, i dont know how the sulfate group would act if you strip the mg from it tho in the mix
we're at 200 celsius. Epsom salt does nothing at these temperatures. It would in fact release water.
@@NurdRage you would need to put it in a oven to drive off the water attached to it normally I should have said that but I've seen others use it instead of sieves. But if it would not work regardless at the temps then it would not be worth the try. Thanks for the reply
That's what i mean, i would not work regardless. Because any water it absorbed would be released again.