D&D Players, Does Druid actually make the best thief?
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Druids would be great theives because the would transform into horse and pull the cart full of stuff. Pair it with a thief with a disguess kit, and no one would question it. Steal a cart every other town to avoid stuff being traced back to you.
...I hate you. Because I didn't think of that first. 😂
I had this discussion a couple months ago with my players, and actually got my brother to play a druid/rogue to test it out. The answer is yes, on paper their skills and abilities make them invisible to law enforcement. A perfect supernatural thief.
Oh... oh no... don't tell my Half-Elf Wildfire Druid about this. He has the Urchin background and will steal just about anything from anyone he doesn't like, as long as he knows he can get away with it.
I played him in Baldur's Gate 3 and got him the Actor feat for +8 Deception. He also had +7 Sleight of Hand and +7 Stealth. He was an absolute menace and could get away with just about anything. He stole the paintings off Cazador's walls.
He's also currently an NPC in a game I'm DMing, and he's dropped notes in the players' pockets without them noticing. +8 Perception really helps here. He also used Snare against them to cover his escape. He has never been seen whenever he doesn't want to be seen. He doesn't even use Wildshape to steal things. He's good enough at being a thief without it. If I ever decided to give him a Rogue dip for Expertise, I will fear the being he becomes.
Level of the character affects this, as well as other factors:
* Until 20th level, a Druid can only use Wildshape twice per rest. Rarely will a thief have an hour to spare mid-robbery to recover their ability. In other words, Wildshape will be convenient for getting in & getting out, but only if the conditions do not change (such as a window or door closing).
* Until 18th level, Druids can't cast spells while Wildshaped. So, hope you don't need to change your concentration spell or cast an emergency spell while you are being a cat or mouse.
* Until 8th level, the forms you Wildshape into can't fly.
* Until 3rd level, druids can't take Pass Without Trace. Even then, they have very limited castings of it per long rest (and that is assuming they don't need to concentrate on something else - or lose concentration - before the hour is up).
TL;DR - a druid is a good accomplice for a thief, but not a reliable thief themselves until end-game levels.
As for better alternatives: Rogue (obviously), Bard, Ranger, or Artificer (in other words: any of the skill-based classes that have a diverse array of tools that largely don't rely on frequent use of limited resources. Hell, simply having Guidance - possible via feat - is probably the best tool any thief could have, since it has unlimited uses and can be paired with essentially any skill check.).
It's clear that certain levels into Druid and Rouge would make for the perfect thief build. Since both classes have benefits the other don't have. Such as Rouge having the tools needed to picklocks which a Druid wouldn't have access to. While Druids would have a better time moving around NPCs and enemies due to having Wild Shaped into something like a mouse or a fly.
Of course, creatures which prey on any small creature that one can Wild Shape into can be a threat. After all, the battle field had changed drastically. Plus something like a hunting hound would go after a PC that's WS into any small animal which had found their way into their master's manor/estate. Causing for proper planning for when robbing the place can be done. Especially since the servants of the Hound's master would be present in the building.
As a farmer i can say without a doubt, doors mean NOTHING to small critters. The tiniest of gaps is enough for most mice (their fur makes them appear larger than they realy are) and spiders (assuming they are the same size as in our world) can get everywhere after all it's a fact that they dont have to move on the groud and are thereby out of range of most mundane dangers and shops dont generally have warchbirds.
All that said unless you multiclass in rogue, why is a druid stealing stuff? They are kind of minimalists (as far as worldly possesion goes) in my mind.
Social stealth is just as good as polymorph. Give a changeling charm spells and everyone gets off scott free "especially with subtle meta magic". Go up as someone else, subtly cast charm, do whatever you need to, get out of sight, change to a completely different face, getaway.
I feel the straight Druid would be more of a niche thief. Same with a wizard. I've never played a Druid, but I have played wizards, one stole an entire mountain. So yeah, you kind of need to manage what's needed VS what is most economical as far as resources go.
Sadly no.
But it all depends on what scale of crime you're committing.
A druid could become an excellent spy, burglar, or assassin, heck they make for great smugglers too.
Give all your illicit goods to the druid, he wild shapes into a rat, and the wizard carries him through the guard post on his shoulder while they are using detect magic, making them assume it is his familiar since he is a wizard.
They might get suspicious as to why the rat doesn't appear as a conjuration spell, aka a summon. Since wild magic is not part of any real type of magic school.
But anyway.
I feel like for pure thievery deals the rogue is the best suited for all manners of criminal activity. They are designed for it after all.
Some classes have niches that make them better at performing certain crimes than rogue but in my experience there is only one thing that makes a character a good thief.
The player.
If you can rp a good thief with a good plan and explanation, with some decent rolls and stats for the crimes you wish to commit. You can make any class into a criminal.
Once had a player as a dwarf cleric of trickery who sold moonshine as 'holy water' and an alternative to wine.
Another was a minotaur druid growing addictive herbs and mushrooms in a bag of holding and using wild shapes to transform into flying shapes, mostly owls or giant bats, to drop backpacks of their 'magic brownies' by a designated drop-off point.
Had two humans, one fighter, and one a bard, who would cheat during competitive duels and tournaments using the bard's magic by deceiving the crowd he was playing a theme song with a group of three other NPC bards for the fight. The NPC bards were told to cast illusion spells to make light, sounds, and other stuff to draw the crowd's attention. While the PC bard kept rigging the game by sabotaging the opponent or boosting the fighter.
They made a lot of gold with their rigged bets.
There was a lot of inspiration, confusion, enhanced ability, heat metal, and other subtle magics being cast in plain sight as the bard made his music in plain sight with the band.
There was also one time I played as a shadow monk and used my shadow step ability to become an infamous thief and murderer whom nobody discovered the identity.
I would shadow-step into and out of houses while using the Skulker feat to remain unseen in shadows when not qi casting pass without a trace.
I would then either steal things of value, sometimes a specific item requested by a client, or I would kill my target while they were alone or vulnerable.
Once killed a man who was sitting by his chair reading a book while his wife was knitting. Moved behind the chair, struck him with a shortsword covered in paralytic poison through a gap in his chair, and used a stunning strike for good measure. I repeated this short sword strike one more time, dealing a crit, before striking with my fist into the wound targeting his spine with flurry of blows, he died before the last strike was dealt. I then simply snuck out and shadow-stepped out of the house through a window. Leaving his paralyzed corpse behind. His wife never noticed until ten minutes later his body fell over.
Then there was the half-orc barbarian who would sneak out into the sewers to break through solid stone walls using a magic pick axe to dig into a bank vault. The vault was enchanted to be soundproof, teleport proof, and had an alarm spell on the doorway and the barred gates leading into the vault.
He just dug through it for a week and robbed the entire place in a single night. He went back and forth five times to carry over 50 sacks of coins and other valuables.
The funny part is that after he did all this he went to a temple and donated all of it to the temple. didn't keep a copper for himself. But he did not do it for being a good person.
It was a temple to Sylvanus the patron god of the elves.
The bank tracked down the gold to the temple and accused them of stealing it.
It caused a massive scandal and forced the bank, and the temple, to close down as the city council just decided to punish the bank for failing to protect the gold, and the temple for having the gold.
One last person I remember was a kenku wizard. He would use his mimic ability and various spells to learn people's voices and then he would use disguise self and alter self to commit fraud in those people's names. Taking out loans, making large purchases, making trade deals, all sorts of stuff. He was proficient in forgery and used magic to get a good image of signatures so he could copy them down.
orc one is great lol
Idk, maybe the guys who can cast silence and invisibility and dimension door AND nondetection.
I'm just going to mention Shadow Monk is also an incredible thief. You get pass without trace as a ki spell and access to minor illusion. At 6th level you can teleport as a bonus action from an area in dim light or lower to another area in dim light or lower. At 11th level, you can become invisible as an action when in an area of dim light or lower. There is no limit on how many times you can teleport or go invisible.
The spell polymorph does the same thing, so that raises the question what it means to wear or carry something?
If I try to pick up a wagon am I carrying it?
What about a house
No? Why not?
Is another creature capable of being worn or carried? Do they count if they aren’t the target?
Is riding on a horse the same as it carrying you?
Would you be considered as "carrying the horse" if you lift a hoof in your hand?
Please can that be the case?
I want to steal a horse as a worm.
Technically, as seen in BG3, your carry capacity is influenced by your STR stat and your equipment weight still exists. While the items do not take up physical space because they are part of your form, they still have weight.
I would vote Genie warlock.
Grab all the loot, and teleport into your lamp, where it can stay, even after you leave.
A druid breaks wild shape, all the stuff comes back with them.
Pact of the Chain, you can have a familiar who can carry your lamp with or without you in it, while invisible.
Ok, but have you considered Way of Shadow Monk? High Dex, Slow Fall, ability to move along vertical surfaces without falling starting at Lv9, Darkness, Darkvision, Pass Without Trace, Silence, Minor Illusion, Shadow Step for teleportation, and Cloak of Shadows for invisibility. You may not have proficiency with Thieves Tools, but strictly speaking it's not required -- anyone can use Thieves Tools, it's just a matter of how well they use them (and with Dex as your focus, you'll still be pretty damn good.
equip your access points with bug zappers. one damage will cancel that wildshaped spider, but probably won't kill the neighbor kid.
Here's my counter point of Barbarian rouge and going all Conan.
If you can't stealth your way through an bit of theft and larceny you still have your rage and your weapon to fall back on. Plus nothing is more dangerous than a muscular thief with a greatsword or other two handed melee weapon handy that you just caught mid yoink.
I feel like a Druid would be an incredible partner in crime for a rouge. Store and hide the loot in wildshape, pass without trace and wildshape into a spider in the rouge’s pocket to grant a +10 to stealth rolls. The rouge would be better at unlocking doors and disabling traps, and knowing the criminal underworld. All in all the ideal partners in crime.
I am here to remind you that this problem was already solved in previous editions. Druids could not use metal gear because it doesn’t wild shape, only wood leather, other natural materials did.
In an attempt to appeal to more people (“but I wanna use metal gear!”) you brought back problems we already solved.
Previous editions a Druid could steal scrolls and paintings this way, but no jewelry or gold or metal gear.
And there goes all ur wild shapes congrats
I'd say it depends on your dm for how you can use your cantrips
Ok here's my ruling I'd do as a DM for the druid thief. Yes your equipment turns weightless in your form. BUT if you're encumbered you need to make an ability (probably dexterity acrobatic) check to make sure you don't drop anything. My reasoning is that you need to be carrying everything while you transform meaning if you want to steal a bunch of chairs you have to account for how you hold them. BY being encumbered I'm imagining you have more than what you for a backpack could reasonably carry so you have gems spilling out the top, arms full assorted silverware etc. So as you changed you have to make sure stuff doesn't spill from your pack or fall from your now bear arms. So I'd base the DC on how much extra they're carrying and based on that failure base how much loot from their excess encumbrance is lost or dropped in transformation. RAW sure they get away with it but I feel this is a good reward creativity but introduce risk way to do it.
Changeling Rogue/Druid.
11:15 So your telling me I should run a heist centered campaign where all the players are incentivized to work together and coordinate their builds to make a magical thief squad lead by a grizzled rogue who prefers to take things the old fashioned way?
ok so, to answer the question of "who is the best" we shouldnt be looking at features and abilities they can get to.. i mean, every class can get expertise in stealth (as example) just by taking the skill expert feat..
no, what we really need to look at is how easy it is to create a thief type build with that class.. and really, the rogue gets everything you'd need right out the gate without having to jump through any hoops to get them..
i mean, yes.. you could probably make a better thief with a druid if you take certain race, background, and feat choices and put your attributes in places you might not normally do.. but then you wouldnt be as good of a druid so why would you do it? if you wanted to be a thief, just pick rogue so you dont become useless outside of stealing stuff..
So, I noticed you getting knocked out of wild shape coming up as a downside a lot, but people forget that wild shape lasts for half your druid level hours. So a level 4 druid could wild shape, short rest to get the use back, and then still be in wild shape with an extra use in their back pocket. Also a level 20 druid relieves this issue entirely with archdruid (though at level 20 rogue is perfectly competent at thievery as well). Lastly, I'd like to remind everyone of some other thievery options at druid's disposal. Guidance in lieu of pwot for other kinds of checks, shape water to use ice expansion to break locks, passwall and treestride to make quick but expensive getaways, plenty of spells can be used to create distractions, and plenty more can be used to create goodwill in case you need to lie your way through a situation or plead for a lighter sentence (so you can then escape jail with exactly the same tricks)
try wizard spells: enlarge/reduce, slow, haste, fly, levitate, telekinesis, knock, gaseous form, enhance ability, polymorph. these are 5th level spells and lower. helps a lot with transportation and movement. wasteful regarding the use of spell slots, though.
I used the Command spell to make an enemy "freeze" for a round mid combat, that let us jump to safety before they could do their killing blow.
So never underestimate Command coming in clutch if you're creative.
Ranger is best
My character is even better: Three-level dip in Artificer before going full Druid. The three’s not important for his “pseudo-Rogue”-ness, but Artificer grants something that can be crucial: Thieves’ Tools proficiency. ‘Course, he’s not really the thieving type, but he _could_ do it, and that’s what matters.
Druid mech. Not on anything that is not normal house/boonies shop.
Bard is worse offender. You can have 90% of rouge have, jack of all trades and bard spells + any spells.
Not to mention subclass, background and race.
Spy not thief a druid could become any animal sneak into enemy territory and learn there secrets return to base reporting the information! or just fly into any castle as a bird and listen in! 😂🕴️🐦⬛🦝
No bards are the best thieves. Everything rogue has but full spellcasting, and the charisma to talk your way out if you fail
PANR has tuned in.
Druid and Ranger deffinitly make better Rogues than actual Rogue
Virgin Solo Stealth that dies to a pitfall trap Vs Chad Pass Without Trace user
what are you stealing wandering your natural surroundings? what group is protecting you from prosecution? who is giving you info on rich targets? where are you fencing this stuff? a good dm would crush all of the druid and rangers hopes easily. cant be one with nature and capitalistic materialist at the same time. also, druids know druids. rangers know rangers. there are certain nuances and small details that experienced naturalists pick up on.
im a chef, i can tell in 5 minutes how much cooking someone has done. i train 15-16 year old kids with learning disabilities how to safely cook. i know very very quickly how much time you spent in a kitchen. if you sell me a story about how many dinners you put out on busy nights running the grill but dont know what "86" means, dont know how long a ribeye takes on each side or look clueless when i ask how often they get a "menu count" then i know that you might in the same class of "line cook" but youre no grill cook and certainly no chef.
a ranger or druid playing a thief is that cook telling nature stories instead. a good dm will not allow you to stray into another class like that. maybe the fey dont see it as being neutral enough or they take offense to you being so focused on worldly people, politics, wealth or whatever and just dont answer you anymore. druids and rangers should shun you too....they are out here being steve irwin and youre being commander mcbragg (god im old and NO ONE will get that...) both naturalists and knowledge seekers but extremely different styles.
@@mysticx0 ummm....
a druid can 100% be a thief lore-wise while still being a druid flavorfully. Maybe even pick up a few rogue levels. not every druid is necessarily the nature type, just has the power set.
@@foureyesisafish7968 riiight. non-nature type druids. uh huh. got it. LOL
Why not just be a rogue and druid multiclass
I see your question on if the Druid is the better thief, and raise you a counter argument that a divination wizard is equally as good a thief. My eladrin divination wizard pulled off not one, not 2, but 3 heists WITHOUT hurting anyone. She charmed several people, the second she was under the effect of the alter self spell to look like a tiefling employee, got in and out with everything all 3 times with great rolls. Silvery barbs and the lucky feat sure make this build reminds me of domino from deadpool 2, the one who's power is luck, similar vibes, she's used to things just working out for her one way or another, she rarely has to use violence to get what she wants
this would be of course splitting the party, but: imagine a rogue or a bard cooperating with a druid.
let's say, one partner is a bard. with his charisma, he gets access to the targets rooms. at a convenient point of time, the druid in wild shape jumps off the bards robe and waits to be alone. end wildshape and have all the gears back. now it's grabby grabby time, take everything important and pack it into bags of holding (don't stop with one).
now there are now two options.
a) there is a plant in the targets room
b) there is no plant in the targets room, the druid has to use a potted plant that is stored inside a bag of holding (it's just creatures that breathe air and exhale CO2 that will suffrocate, plants will be totally fine.
the druid uses travel by plant to escape.
while option b leaves a plant behind that will give a clue on what has happened, option a does not, and since the druid has now seen the potted plant, this will be a entry point for later adventures.
if option b was used, and somebody of the people who fell victim know about druids, they can assume that a wildmagic surge went wrong and the druid turned into a potted plant. so they will interrogate and torture the potted plant until they find out that it is not a druid.
if done with a rogue, the rogue could just carry the druid inside, then they both steal and they both escape via some plant.
You need metamagic adept for good thief caster, but why steal my friends. How about a little bit of social engeneering with subtle suggestion. All of you are working so hard to steal. Why?
Silence isn't on the wizard or sorcerer spell list, so the last one using silence doesn't really work.
You think a horse makes the best theft until the Oath of the crown Paladin comes to collect your taxes.
🥲