Will Arya become No-One?
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- čas přidán 28. 05. 2024
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A voice made for narration!
@@jconner78you beat me to it. Robert’s accent is the cherry on top
@@jezebullsit reminds me of Galu sometimes
I swear the only class you never sleep in and get kinda sad when it’s over 😅
I don't even really like GoT/SoI&F, I'm here for LotR, but I like the narration so much I listen to all the videos he makes
I agree with the conclusion here. Arya has too strong an identity with her family and her birthplace. She also has too strong a sense of justice; she will always kill as a form of judgment.
The real question is why the faceless train her despite knowing this.
@@batman1776 Presumably because GRR Martin needs that for future plot points, even if it doesn't make sense.
@@batman1776 For the sake of the plot.
@@batman1776 Maybe the faceless men train her because they are desperate as Robert suggests, or maybe they have a backup plan...another role for Arya if she cannot become no one. Or maybe, if she leaves, they feel they have lost nothing.
@batman1776 Potentially some of the names on her list overlap with potential targets _they_ have, although I don't see why they wouldn't just send experienced Facelessmen. Maybe they just want or need a warg in their employ, for a good reason, or for no reason at all. By all accounts, it doesn't make sense haha
I find the concept of the Faceless man getting shocked and impressed by Arya's callousness and tenacity quite funny, like "I know we are servents of death but this kid is a different breed, what the hell"
That note about the sailors wanting her to remember their names is very cool. Lovely detail.
Well, she's not allowed to kill them if she knows them. I'd slap her just to make sure she never forgets! I mean...who remembers every random person they meet on a boat? It's not like they were passing mugshots around.
The best part is how futile such an effort is.
It makes no sense; why would the sailors know this 'rule?' And knowing someone's name is not knowing them. And that rule only refers to the current persona, not the actual 'core person' underneath
I have a theory about the faceless men's training of Arya.
It comes from the way they act, including as you pointed out, that meeting where they clearly each still have an identity.
We see Jaqen H'ghar make quite the decision when he gives Arya 3 deaths. His line about them being owed to the red god is certainly strange. We see he as no desire to die himself when the count goes from 3 to quite a few more.
By the time she arrives at the house of black and white, she's already worn a number of faces and shown an uncanny ability to hide in plain view. Yet she still knows who she is. That's why she was given the coin.
It also comes from a certain contradiction in the teachings.
1: Who is the god of death? no one.
2: Who are you? no one.
3: You are not the god of death.
They aren't trying to turn her into no one. They are testing to see if the training will break her into thinking she IS the god of death. The reason she gets promoted is because she can keep her identity. They put her in horrific situations, she stays herself. They take her eyes away, she adapts and stays herself. She is a prodigy at absorbing the teachings, yet they can tell she remains herself on the inside.
She’s playing the game just as she was taught.
Greetings Mr. One. Mr. No One.
i always thought that was the point of how she became no one in the show. a mask is a mask, they have to remember that.
That meeting isn't them having an identity; it is literally their persona that cannot know the target. I don't get how this obvious thing is misread
@@pyropulseIXXI "The priests used the language of Braavos, though once for several minutes three spoke heatedly in High Valyrian.
Martin, George R. R.. A Dance with Dragons (A Song of Ice and Fire, Book 5) (p. 972). Random House Publishing Group. Kindle Edition. "
I think they are promoting her because, knowingly or not, she is acting out the Many-Faced God's wishes. Daeron took an oath, upon pain of death and broke it. His life is now owed to the Many-Faced God. Arya doing it directly is really more like breaking doctrine. She had the right instinct, she just went about it the "wrong" way according to their faith.
Arya's bond with Nymeria gives her a link to Arya Stark that the Faceless Men don't know exists, and would struggle to sever even if they knew. That strikes me as the key to her not becoming no-one even when she's isolated from everyone and everything she knew and even has her sight taken. Cult indoctrination 101 (also abusive relationship 101) is to control someone's access to the world so that they accept the reality you present them with.
From the Faceless Men's perspective, Arya's conversion is proceeding a little differently than usual, but their eventual success is inevitable, just as it has been with every recruit for generations (while the old magics slept).
wtf are you talking about? They tell her she can leave anytime and the only way she can stay is if she is absolutely obedient. They are straight up with her; that isn't abusive at all; this isn't cult indoctrination either; they are a legit organization
@@pyropulseIXXI Permit me to rephrase a little: they make it clear that if she doesn't follow their rules and adopt their ways, to the extent of abandoning who she was entirely, they will kick her out.
The choice presented is between becoming Faceless, or going out and living on the streets as an orphan child. Cults like to tell people with no place else to go that they can leave any time too - admittedly, that's a little above 101 level, but it's still a standard manipulation tactic.
@@pyropulseIXXI that's what most cults do. Usually "being let go" also includes having to leave everyone from the cult (usually everyone you know, and your family) behind, too (vidr Jehovah witnesses for example, that's called shunning and it's incredibly destructive - both when someone decides to leave, and when it effectively prevents them from leaving). But even if not, here she has a place to stay, otherwise she is all alone in the world with no home.
@@tymondabrowski12100% this. It gives the new member an illusion of freedom and choice. In reality leaving has high exit costs for most.
One thing to consider about Arya is that despite not fitting in, she is high born. For an order specializing in infiltration and assassination, that's very valuable. She'd have an easier time fitting in amongst society than a common born assassin and would require less teaching in those aspects of noble life.
It's possible the already have a target in mind for her and it would be one they couldn't kill by posing as cook, random soldier, or other servant.
“Look, we have hundreds of kids masks. We need her to join”
I agree, Arya is such a strong willed person, and one of my favourite characters from the books. The Faceless Men know that they cannot claim her fully, as they must know most of her secrets, certainly they know about Needle. They know they have to train her for the journey ahead, and they like her. She does have that way about her, winning people over just by being her. Her story is one of the best stories in the series, and her growth during the books has been very cool to read!
I think the Faceless Men were never trying to teach her to be No One. Of course, this arc does see her training to be a highly effective assassin, but the whole point of the narrative here is for her to remember who she is. You might think that she always knew who she was leading up to this point; but she was a displaced orphan and had no home. Discovering and accepting who she really was had always been central to her character's development - even from the very first episode.
If you think of Jaqen as a man, it's easy to see his motivations through the lense of a man. But I think what's more interesting is to think about his interactions with Arya from the perspective of a representative of his religion. When you consider their exchanges from that perspective, is it possible that the Many-Faced God never wanted Arya to become No One? Or maybe what he really wanted was for her to 'be' Arya.
Her training teaches her to be anyone, but also confirms that she can never be No One.
The Many-faced God works in mysterious ways...
They were not trying to recruit her into the order but training her for what they knew she was destined to do.
@@seriousmaran9414 Nah. The writers don't think that way
@ashscott6068 the TV series writers might not but they generally don't know what they are talking about. I'm going from how the original books read.
Why would Jaqen want any of this, or the Faceless Men for that matter? That doesn't square with their religion at all.
I swear, most theories I see here, including those by Robert in the video, just boil down to: "Arya will not become no one, the Faceless Man are just training her to be awesome because they like her so much, her storyline will be one big inspirational triumph for the Starks, because I like Arya and that's what I want to happen."
Because that's how GRRM writes, giving characters happy fairytale endings when the fandom really likes those characters.
i believe it was an old video of "quinn's ideas" where he compared the magical arcs of bran, arya and dany. they all had to be separated from family, suffered terrible loss, have magical connection to a direwolf or a dragon, all had to eat something gross as part of some kind of initiation (house of the undying potion, "jojen paste", bitter milk), they are all guided by some kind of guru or seer (quaithe, 3-eyed raven, jaqen) and they are all expected to fulfill their role or destiny. i think this is a very interesting thing that would probably indicate that the three of them are going to do when all their paths cross as their "trained" versions and how that ties to the song of ice and fire.
Great vid as usual IDG. I certainly think given Arya's strong sense of self / identity (even if bubbling below the surface for the moment) she will not truly become no-one but as the vid shows that is not as absolute with the FM anyway. Nor do i think she will become a totally obedient / loyal acolyte either. But I also think the FM realize Arya will push boundaries of the order and will let her get away with more anyway given her potential to become a top level assassin. Plus she also likely fits into their overarching plans. Arya's lust for death / killing without remorse (so young no less) , a magic user (which i believe most of the very top echelon FM are) already well accustomed to using multiple identities and her being highborn comes with decorum knowledge along with certain access a commoner does not have. Given her birth / station they likely expect her to eventually be traveling in certain circles again.
Even when Arya returns home reclaiming her former self , on top of sending out a highly trained bringer of death , her access and associations i suspect somewhat fits into the FM's Westerosi plans figuring out and eliminating those elements perverting the order of death i.e. wights / resurrections etc ; of which she will likely be an unknowing participant in such plans at that point.
Not saying this is based on anything from the books, but since Arya has come across so many people from the plot in Braavos, it'd be neat if her way back to Westeros was with Dany. If they met out of context, I think Dany would really like Arya
Her wolf was Nymeria and named after the woman who led the Rhoynar refugees to Dorne. I think Arya will find out about the Freefolk who are being sold into slavery and will bring them home to the North on the ships of Aurane Waters. He stole his ships from Cersei and I think Arya will like that she returns home on them.
@@ardleighstreet Good connections, that sounds great
Dany hates Ned because of Robert’s Rebellion. Not sure she would be friendly towards Arya
@@pedromenchik1961that's why it would be crucial for them to meet out of context. If Dany takes a liking to her, and only then finds out she's a Stark, that would be right in line with the emotional gut punches GRRM likes to hit us with.
I think you like both Dany and Arya and just want them to be friends for that reason.
But Arya really has no reason to like Dany. Someone here pointed out that Dany doesn't like Ned, but Arya on her part will be well aware of the gruesome way in which the Mad King killed her uncle and grandfather. She also likely believes Rhaegar did horrible things to Lyanna.
Even though Arya never met them, her own experiences with losing family quite likely will cause her to be extremely hostile to Dany and Targaryens in general. They killed more Starks than even Walder Frey managed to, and Arya will not fail to realize that.
My Take: Her final test for initiation of into the FM is that she is sent to assassinate the "head of Winterfell" or the King in the North and, believing it to be Rose Bolton, the last name on her list, goes off happily. She arrives to find Jaqen there in his OG mask she first met him in and Needle. She learns her target is either Jon or Sansa and it is the last test to show she is really no one. I tend to like the idea of it being Jon Snow learning that he is really Rhegar Targarean's son so that Jaqen can say, "No, you do NOT know this man..." when Aria objects to knowing him and not being able to kill him. "The man you knew as Jon Snow has died and been brought back to life and is now called Azor Ahai by Lord and Smallfolk alike. This is the man you are to kill!"
Arya puts together that the FM are not just a religion and, like everything else in the world, has two sides to it. She has NOT found something concrete and solid which stands on principle, all she ever wanted, and instead has found another politically minded, nefarious Game in which she is another pawn of. Like the Catholic church irl, they are religious and have rules, but, they also have earthy considerations and take on contract killing for profit, like killing Balon Greyjoy for his brother. She instead kills Jaqen like she did the Night's King in the show and goes on to help her family, reclaiming her identity. Her story ends bittersweet as she sets off to find what's West of Westeros and is last seen sailing off with a sturdy Bravoosi ship, or even perhaps Euron Greyjoy's ship, repurposed. Amongst her crew is a young girl who, for a moment, reminds Aria both of herself and of Weasel, earning her admiration...
Totes agree. Great vid.
I think a lot of us get a bit too drawn into this element of the world building. There are definitely some good questions about the FM designs. But I think these tend to cloud the themes.
What is Arya basically doing, and stripped of the window dressing what is she studying? How does it fit her role as a Stark? Is it about skills and powers as much as it's about a struggle with identity and inner core?
The FM are basically Illyn Payne. He doesn't choose who lives and dies, the king does. His job is to obey. This strikes entirely the opposite of Ned, who's trained his kids that judge and executioner must be the same. There's a lot of plot going on around her, but meaningfully Arya is being to trained to be an executioner.
It's probably not exactly that straightforward though. This is the cauldron of identity. The point will be to either develop her to the point she can listen without prejudice and be a better judge, or so she can kill someone without hesitating because of emotion. I can see either argument. Ned was a fairly good judge, but he wasn't perfect. Gared tried to tell him things and he dismissed them.
The story will likely need Arya to be a better judge. The FM training will likely never break her, but it will teach her to silence the voice that used to make assumptions about what was or wasn't stupid. I don't know if it's something they were payed to do or if it's just them doing what they do. But I doubt the point is to make Arya basicly the perfect executioner for someone. An axeman with no identity that carries out orders. They're just finishing what Syrio started teaching her about not prejudging information she takes in.
I think I know how and why she'll leave them and go back. But studying parallels is perilous and tricky.
I've really enjoyed this Faceless Men series... great insights, thanks Robert.
I love that you still pump out videos! I'm re-rereading the series and back into all the iceberg theories, and ofc I found your channel and I love it! Thank you ❤❤❤
Great video! I agree with your theory. The Faceless Men would have no problem with Arya taking Needle and going back to Winterfell to join her family. If she just went home and did a hit for them here and there, they would be happy. However, they would have a problem with her killing people out of revenge using their faceless men abilities. She kills RTS using their powers, and to them, that's an abomination of their beliefs. Thank you for making this distinction.
The only threat to the faceless in Westeros would be Bran as he can see any planned assassination coming. You think she would kill Bran or turn on the faceless for asking such a thing? The faceless would know this and let go of her.
@@Me-qp8vz I think the faceless men absolutely hate the Others, and are horrified about the threat north of the Wall. The Others are bringing back the dead, which goes against their religion. So I think Arya will be asked to do what she did in the show. She will be asked to kill the Others and anyone related to them. Since the Others do not have a leader in the books, I don't see her jumping out of nowhere to easily kill their leader. Well unless a fan theory becomes true and "dead" Jon or "possessed" Bran becomes their leader. If so, she may be the one to do it. And of course, she will have a problem killing Jon / Bran as the Night King. So you may be right and she may refuse and turn on the faceless men.
@@Me-qp8vz She knows Bran and therefore would be exempt from having to carry out a contract on him in the first place
One Hindu/Buddhist meditation is to sit in a graveyard or charnel ground and visualize oneself dying and decomposing, visualizing the people one loves dying and decomposing. With reincarnation, there need be no fear of death. There are echoes of this sort of religious practice and the experience of losing the self in the faceless men's religion.
Many meditators experience states of "no-self", or "being no one". For many people, this can require a lot of intense practice over a long period of time. Those who have a strong sense of self or purpose often show the greatest determination in these sorts of practices. The cult of the faceless men reminds me of historical assassins and worshipers of Kali.
Arya will hopefully remain Arya, but she could transcend being Arya and be a certain foil to how Bran is not really Bran any more.
They are cutting her some slack, because she is still a child and maybe far more moldable than the pov chapters show. Or at least how she appears to them. Or they are interested in investing in her potential. They do not seem to be worried about her leaving besides it being a waste of potential. She had some training already and performed assassinations and yet they offer her to leave if she wants to. They are making a time bomb.
"Hello everyone. This is Robert"... Music to my ears! Love the continued GoT content. Looking forward to more new book videos. When/If the books ever arrive. Do you think GRRM is ever going to release Winds and Dreams or do you think a team of writers will eventually need to be called in to help him fill out the story from his notes?
I don't think she was intended to be an assassin but instead was given training for what was to come. The gods kept manipulating things, the dire pups and recovering worging to the god of light resurrecting Jon (I know he hasn't in the book, but they sure set it up like he will). I wondered if they might do like Malazan and the gods inhabit human hosts and leave a piece of themselves when they move on.
What I really thought was Fire and Ice is Jon with the powers on each side. I will be sorely disappointed if he doesn't worg into a dragon at some point or if Arya does not worg with Nymerria again to take over the wolf pack to fight the zombies.
I read all of the books just so I could listen to your videos
As always Robert, spot on. I deeply appreciate your analysis of the lore. I have a very busy mind and am not a very nuanced thinker at times. I really enjoy the way you open up my mind, I feel like a student at university when I listen to you. Your a great teacher and critical thinker. I value you for doing the work. Keep it up.
I really like the view that the faceless men are a lot less straightforward with their teachings, how Arya reacts to plucking the worm from the skull seems to be passing a hidden test, the test on the surface is to not be afraid of an illusion of death but underneath it could also be to see if she would react like stone, instead of just fleeing in fright or standing there obediently she does something unique and unexpected, and this seems to open the door for her.
I think the important part of being a faceless man is the "you can leave at any time" and not the constant critique and identity abandonment that they give, the true test is that you persist and have patience, much like they act when they assassinate people, whatever it takes, what role they are given they adapt and wait and find the right moment to strike. So long as you follow the spoken rules and perform your duties on the surface you are passing the true test, letting your outside be what they tell you to be without it compromising your inner self.
In the beginning when Eddard killed that deserter from the Night Watch, he was the one to judge him as oatbreaker and he was the one who beheaded him. When Bran asked why couldn't someone else behead deserter, Eddard responded that the man who judged someone must ne the one who will get their hands bloody. Same when Robb killed Lord Karstark. Arya is noone she is that sword, she is death, and we all are no one for death which is inevitable.
Thank you Robert!! Always so amazing! I appreciate each and every one of your videos!
The question is in her name: Are ya Stark? She has the strongest connection to the Starks out of any of them, circumstances and trauma force her out of that identity time and time again and she never truly lets it go. Her connection to Nymeria reinforces this, plus she has the Stark look to her as the cherry on top. No matter what happens, she will always be a Stark.
Sansa Stark... "Sans" aka "without" Stark. She is the most divorced from Stark identity and may end up embracing Littlefinger-style values over Stark honor and the ways of the North. Plus her dead direwolf and lack of warg skills.
(Spoilers Books & Show) I don't see her becoming Queen in the North in the books, or Arya graduating assassin school then murking NK and fucking off to some strange land and abandoning her pack. More likely that Sansa returns to Tyrion and becomes Lady of Casterly Rock and Arya becomes a feral child and lives among the wolves... lol
Its really funny how arya's bravos chapters got split between 3 books!
(the mercy sample chapter was written before AFFC was publish and even before gorge abondoned the 5 years gaps)
I'll be honest. Arya "failing upwards" within the ranks of an assassin cult, kinda felt like:
George wanted to tell a cool story, but had to break the internal logic of his own world to do so.
As a DM, I can relate.
While I agree with you here, people do indeed fail upwards all the time.
She's being given leeway because the FM know who she is and how important she could end up being.
I don't think her identity is the problem. The main thing that bounds her is her list I believe. If she did not had people she wanted to kill for very, very personal reasons, it would be easier to let herself go. But when you have such a strong ... grudge to settle, your sense of self get reasonably strong. If not a sense of self, a sense of purpose. She is indeed a prodigy for the faceless men, but she can't, in good _faith_ let go of her targets.
My belief is that the faceless men judge her "young and brash" and that, in time, she will let go and fall into line. Or they believe that time will mend her wounds and only the death prodigy will remain.
I think an even bigger problem is her wolf dreams, this is a thing see cannot control and cannot stop even when she want too (in cat of the cannels i think)
Her bond with nymeria is too strong for her to break
I love this channel but it's so hard to get excited for books that will never get finished.
I hear you. At one point, this was my favourite book series. But knowing that it will never get finished has really affected my appreciation of it.
I used to be obsessed with ASOIAF, and there still is interest which is why i'm watching these, but to me the song is already over, we're lucky if someone manages to cobble together an ending after GRRMs passing like Dune.
Great work. Much appreciated!
Another amazing video, thanks Robert
I don't know if Arya is fully able to become no one I could see her becoming the eyes and ears of the faceless men in her travels.
Or a powerful ally/puppet in Westeros once the Starks retake the North. Something the faceless men can orchestrate.
I like your take on becoming 'no one'. Hadn't really looked at it that way.
Thanks for the new video.
I enjoy your "A Song of Ice and Fire" theories.
Wow how nice to c u again 😀 its been a few years and I'm happy ur here
I believe that Arya was the exception for the faceless men to train. For Arya was the God of Death's instrument to kill the Knight King, cause the Knight King was stealing the dead from the God of Death. Death requires life for death to exist, so the Knight King was a direct threat to the God of Death.
Nice work dude thanks
IIRC, when the kindly man offers her a chance to leave, he says they'll take her to Westeros or set her up with a loving family. I always wondered what that would really entail. Or if it was a test that she'd be killed for failing.
I'm less interested in if ayra will become nobody. Same as in the video, I believe she'll keep her identity. I'm more interested in if the faceless men already know this fact and yet still have plans for her. Imagine training her this whole time, knowing she's lying and then being surprised when she runs off. That would make them look kinda dumb. The answer could be as simple as them recognizing her from prophesy or even just helping her because they respect her spirit and goals. As long as their endgame isn't to keep training her until she becomes a full believer. It would take me out of the lore if she tricks this ancient all-knowing guild.
It's weird to me that they say "If you come, we can kill all the people on your list" and then is asked to pretty much give up on the list to me.
It was to lure her there i guess.
Robert, I so enjoy your videos and your presentation; cheers, and please do crack on! My next step is to figure out patreon… 😆
Her identity as a Warg - something she cannot change about herself, and very much an intrinsic link to her First Men ancestry and identity as a Stark - I think is the biggest interference between Arya and the Faceless Men. I don't think they realise this point, and if/when they do find this point out, I think it will change the dynamic entirely. I think Martin is certainly leading up to this point - it is a crucial point in the books, where such natural, intrinsic magics (the children of the forest, the dragons, the greenseers, etc) exist, as opposed to the learned magics (the various priesthoods, Melisandre, etc). Those natural magics generally have an association with powers of fate and the gods that, I think, the House of Black and White would not want to interfere with...indeed, I think that the House of Black and White would actively prevent anyone trying to interfere with such powers. As a result, I think that if Arya's true nature and powers are revealed to the Faceless Men, although I don't think they'd kick her out, I think they will not pursue her enlistment to their order any further. Not as an ordinary member, anyway. And I think that, through this natural magic so prominent in the Starks (especially noting the growing association of Rickon with the Skaggs - especially from the snippet from Dance with Dragons - and Bran with his greenseer skills), Martin is pulling the strings together for the remaining Starks (including Jon) to be a powerful force of the old gods/nature, one which the House of Black and White may even support, or at the least, not interfere with. Certainly, the build up around the conflict with the Night King seems to indicate this!
Very high quality video keep up the good work
Jaqen was the many-faced God:
1.Jaqen knew everyone on Arya’s list, which she only recited to herself, in private
2.)Jaqen, although a faceless man, shouldn’t have been able to appear and reappear over great distances (like when Arya was walking with Baratheon and hot pie, and Jaqen kept reappearing on the cliffs
3.)Jaqen, after drinking the poison meant for Arya dies, but is magically talking right behind her. When the faceless men get a face for the hall, they only get one per person, so only the ManyFaced God could have done that
And finally:
4.)the many face men wouldn’t have let her go after the training concluded…she was their investment. The spent alot of time training her and divulging their secrets. Only the many-faced god would understand her role in the big picture(with the WW’s).
I like this one like the many faced god choosing their champion as Patchface with drowned god, bloodraven with the old god's etc
6:30 I like that Many-Faces "decides who will die" based on the desires of who most recently paid the Faceless Men a ton of money.
The ghost of high heart thinks Arya smells of death and has much grief. She who hangs out with bandits who kill by sword and noose regularly.
After leaving King's Landing, Arya fears her mother knowing what she's become when they reunite- That she's killed people. She often thinks of Jon who was very acceptant of her nature.
The House of Black and White would value this nature. She would be miserable and vengeful anywhere else.
The kindly man said they hardly get female members and now, they've apparently found a talent. I think they give her the tasks, not only to indoctrinate her but to teach her discipline for all that anger and grief she holds. Or to see what line she won't cross. She deals with corpses, poisons, learns several foreign languages, takes orders from servants in the kitchens, informs on the people she befriends to the kindly man
The only thing is that she has some of Ned's sense of Justice. She says the first Faceless Man should have killed the masters, not the slaves. She kills Daeron for his desertion. The insurance agent for his scam. Raff for Lommy.
And spared Sandor as I believe she realised he isn't actually a bad person.
I don't think that she will be able to kill any of her assignments unless she can justify it. And that is where her downfall will be.
Ps. Do you think that when the kindly man says she can leave whenever she wants and go wherever she wants with their help, he means they'll kill her?
I think the key to understanding why the Faceless Men go on training Arya knowing she still plans to kill for personal revenge lies in their origin story: The first FM saw himself as an instrument of the death god. Arya's off-the-scale "suitability" like eating the worm from the skull could be taken as a sign the god sent her to them for training. She isn't _for_ them.
They are servant's of the many-faced god before they are assassins. The god they serve just sent her to them to equip her for what he/she intends. The training is an answer to her prayer. She is not destined to be the instrument that grants others' prayers.
If that is their view, it explains the curious phrasing: You are not one of us, you do have yo obey our rules _while you're here._ When you no longer want to do that, you may leave.
It totally fits for a fanatical religious order trying to serve their god in a situation where they're not quite sure what he/she wants, but are acting on their best guess
questions, questions, questions...
1. Do the Faceless men prophesize, and/or get some glimpse of the future from the god of death? If yes, then perhaps Jaqen knew she'd kill the frozen king?
2. Are the processes in which the Faceless men operate a secret? i.e. how they assign contracts? If yes, then why and how would the men on the ship she took to Bravos insist she knew their names? What do non-Faceless men know of how the Faceless men operate, including people in Bravos?
3. Was Jaqen the only "leader" of the Faceless men, or where there temples around the world, each doing their own contracts? Either yes or no, perhaps Jaqen needed to train a replacement and he thought Arya would be the one? (side note to this question, for those who are Elder Scrolls fans, I always related the Faceless men to the Blackhand, thus assumed there were different temples/covens in different areas, that receive their contracts via a Listener).
By retaining memories of people who they know it probably helps prevents kinslaying which is an affront to EVERY GOD!! The god of death would not be happy if they accidentally killed a sibling unknowingly because they didnt realize that was the case
For me this goes back to another of your videos where Jaqen was in kings landing to kill Eddard. That peaked my interest and put the thought in my brain that she might learn that he was there to kill her father and that is what gets her to go back to Westeros.
I don't know if she's going to be able to make the whole transformation. She still has Needle stashed in the steps of the House of Black and White. Also, Mercy (one of her faces) kills another Westerosi on her hit list, while in Braavos.
You make a very good argument for why the faceless men accept Arya despite the fact that she obviously is not willing to commit either to losing her identity or to being fully obedient to the order. But for me, it falls short of an explanation. And I think that may be partly because you arent really "getting" what the order is all about. They literally worship Death. And while they dont just go around killing people for no reason, their clear "role in society" (if you can call it that) is to be the knife for those with a sufficiently strong desire to kill, or for the executioner for those who sufficiently deserve to die. JRRM consciously based the faceless men on the real Order of the Hashishim. While the TV show varied it slightly, I think it is still pretty clear that the order obtains some type of "sanctity" by taking life from those who have "earned" (in some karmic sense) an early or ugly death.
Jaquen Hagar has seen Westeros. Even if we do NOT assume that he is Syrio Forel, surely he will have seen enough to know that everyone on Arya's list - and more - are richly deserving to receive the Manyfaced God's "Gift". So what would a person who worships that God do? Surely they would want to give Arya all the tools she needs to help unleash the Manyfaced God's gift on as many people as possible.
I think the Faceless Men recognised Arya's potential as a tool to exert their influence throughout Westeros (where it seems to be limited, at most). Even when they saw that she was unfit to ever really become a genuine and obedient member, they continued to train her because they knew that if they did ... well ... they knew what she would do. And that would serve their purposes whether she was loyal or not.
If we go a bit further, and hypothesise that the Faceless Men have some genuine spiritual connection, then they might even have sensed Arya's ultimate importance, and her role in killing all of the Walking Dead (sic) But thats exclusive to the TV show so I wont speculate further.
OMG. I never realized that about the faceless men. (Can't kill someone you know). Should've been a bit more obvious. That meeting between assassins would've been perfect!! THEY LET SO MUCH GOOD SIT OUTTA THE BOOKS! AAAARRRGGGGHHHHH!
I wonder if the faceless men keep records and what might happen if Arya comes across a contract for one Ned Stark payed for by one Petyr Baelish
Target killed before Contact could be fulfilled. Payment refunded.
Ah! Someone else got to wondering what Jaquen H'Ghar was doing in the Black Cells at the same time as Ned
So good.
Yeah cause she's magical AF!! The reason she she can see through the Kindly Man's skull from the lessons of Syrio Farrel - he taught her how to see true.
Even if as a devotee Arya does not pass into the Order, she will still be a worthy ally in House Winterfell for the Order. Being of aristocratic birth, having the old magic in her, having been raised by her tutor old Nan, being a Warge, and fulfilling the prophecy of slaying the Walker, along with character and so on, Arya is a worthy pupil. Arya is an ally with a role to play and must never become No One, lose her aristocratic identity, but can also become Many-Faced herself. The order now has a powerful ally, she gains the ancient knowledge. Worthy exchange. Presumably the Order would have an interest in seeing both their ancient enemy the Valerians fall, as well as increase their presence in Westeros. Not to mention the number of deaths in the war would have please the Many-Faced. The Many-Faced God is comfortable with ambiguity.
Look, as one who has served a religious "apprenticeship," the reality is that doubts and resistance to spiritual dogma and doctrine are not simple, not "black and white" if you will. That's the point of apprenticeship; of novitiates and postulancy. You don't come to an order already formed, nobody does. Orders and religions that demand instant conversions are more akin to cults; if the "Faceless Men" work like other religions, then they must allow for formation and doubt and growth. I'm not saying that Arya WILL become one of them...maybe you are correct, he sense of "self" may indeed prevent it...but I suspect there is a middle-ground here: a person who can be formed and trained and yet not yet subject to the Order, yet also not truly apostate, not false. Like a monk who has faithfully studied but finds themselves unable to take their final vows and so are released from their house with friendship and regret, Arya might find herself ultimately with sympathy from the Faceless Men but unable to take the final step. The "show" made it out to be a sort of betrayal; the Faceless Men seek to kill Arya. Most religious apprenticeships are far more generous; if you cannot take your "final vows" you are released from service with thanksgiving and even blessing.
What if "no one" isn't a singular identity but rather a description. She doesn't have to lose her identity as Arya, she only has to be no one known to those that receive the Gift. Faceless aren't prevented from killing someone they know, but rather are prevented from killing someone who knows them. It's a matter of perspective. The first Faceless operated this way.
The other Faceless clearly have identities. Perhaps not the identity they arrived with, but among each other they are still known. All of them are someone to someone else. None of them are no one to each other and thus none of them can properly receive the Gift.
So what does this mean for Arya? It means that she can retain her identity as Arya if she wants. But eventually she will be called upon to assassinate all of the Faceless men. Her advanced skill will make it likely that she is the one to kill them but it will not be known. They will be killed by the hands of no one that they know or can identify.
Faceless will just go off to complete a contract and never return. Or will die of natural causes inside the House of Black and White long after Arya has left for Winterfell. They tell her that once she leaves she can never return.
This is prophetic in that once Arya leaves, Arya will not return. Instead, she returns as no one and will be able to complete the ultimate Valar Morghulis by causing the deaths of faceless Men who in turn also must die. None are above the contract of the many faced god.
With all the killings performed by the Faceless Men what happens when someone gets fed up with them and puts a contract out on the Faceless Men themselves? They are obligated by their God of Death to take the contract, but none of them can complete it since they are all known to each other and part of the group. They know each other's strengths and weaknesses and would be able to identify the killer as someone within their group.
Thus, they need someone to be trained exceptionally well to avoid detection and yet leave the group so that they aren't a part of it to be assassinated. They will have to be given the Gift by No One that they know.
They aren't training Arya to be one of them and continue the religion. They are training Arya to fulfill the ultimate contract of giving the Gift to all of them.
Alternatively the contact could be on the original Faceless Man by the original Faceless Man. There is no word that he ever died. He could simply be changing faces and personas into younger and younger forms as the years pass. He may be tired of his persistent "not today" and wish for the Gift himself.
All the money they've collected from contracts over the thousands of years has to have gone somewhere. That would be enough to pay for the contract.
Only half way through but who is this new artist they are incredible.
I enjoyed this! Didn’t love the AI art but your content is very compelling
Identification is a prison keeping us from being our true authentic selves. Personality is a many faced God. The Greeks had many Gods and Deities. A God of war, A Godddess of love. All identifications that seek our obedience.
A person with no discipline changes their face to suit their whims and moods. Freedom is achieved by being still and knowing. Be here now. Breathe, sense, relax.
When the attention is in the body. The mind becomes still. The inner dialog ceases and one can become noone.
When tslking about Arya Stark, she is generally thought of as Arya. But whats more important is the Stark. A name deeply woven into the history of the north. She has been schooled about duty to that history, to the north, to Winterfell and to her family. She is not a normal girl. She is the daighter of Ned and Catlyn Stark. She is formidable. It is why they try to train her and why they will never succeed.
One way or another, Arya is going to become a very dark and tragic character who will do some horrible things. Her story arc literally is about that, a good and idealistic child who loves her family, being traumatized by grief and the horrors of war and morphing into a vengeful character who lives to mete out justice for the people she lost.
She may come back from that state and find her original childhood innocence and honorable Stark identity again later on, redemption certainly is possible, but at least for a good amount of time, she will be on that very dark path, otherwise her entire character arc makes no sense and all the setup in books 4 and 5 would be essentially wasted. The show gave us a bit of a taste what awfully bad writing it is, to have Arya just become Arya Stark again and go back to Westeros to be a badass on behalf of House Stark.
I think the main reason why people argue Arya will not become "no one", is simply because they really don't want her to. But that's the point of a tragic character: she goes in the direction you don't want her to go.
And all those moments Robert now points to where you can see she still has part of her identity, are meant to illustrate exactly that: she is in transformation now, undergoing an internal struggle, and the Stark part of her is resisting. But that doesn't mean the Stark part is going to win. It's more likely that this mainly serves to drive home the tragedy of her losing contact with that part of herself.
Arya Stark is a Jewel of the North, there is no way to change that. In Braavos they dont fully understand why there must always be a Stark in Winterfell.
Christmas came early this year 🎉two videos in a row✨️💯Hooray❤
The only thing that's going to truly draw Arya back to Winterfell will be Jon Snow. And Jon Snow has to get that whole "coming back from the dead" thing solved, before he can do that.
Always thought it was interesting and worth noting that among the seven New Gods, The Stranger is a representation of death, much like how the Faceless man always introduce themselves as no one. I think that Aria will inevitably leave The Faceless Men, and return home, where she will begin to Mark all of the names off of her list one by one. It's her autonomy in deciding her own victims in my opinion, that makes her a closer parallel to the Stranger Than even The Faceless Men Are. Think it's quite possible that Aria will serve as something of a metaphor for the non-discriminatory nature of death itself. I feel that metaphor, will most likely be driven home by Aria killing all of these important and powerful people who have thus far remained mostly untouchable in the series
No one. No “one”. Many. It’s simple.
But being blinded was a part of her training she would have done anyway. Before Daeron, they didn't know she had ever killed before. How many 11-year-old killers show up there? Not many I would guess.
The kindly man says 'it is not for you (Arya) to say who live and who shall die, it is for he who has many faces', I took this to mean once you attain the ability to become he/she who has many faces then you can be no one and everyone so decide who lives and who dies.
Fu_ken awesome insight that my brain couldn't even fathom.
Thanks a million.Keep up the brilliant work.
I do wonder sometimes if we’ve just had too much time to think about all of this. Like I think Grr Martin is brilliant, but sometimes I wonder if some of these things are confusing because he didn’t put as much time into them as we have had to mull over them.
I think you are wrong in one part.
The Faceless Men are TRYING to get her to stay.
What does Catelyn says about Arya? That whenever you deny her something, it is the thing she wants most in the world. I am pretty sure they are playing reverse psychology with her.
And the way the Kindly man phrased Arya's actions. It seems that she was wrong in the answer she gave him, not with the deed. Daeron made a Vow to the Gods and the Penaance of breaking that Vow is Death. If Arya had answered that she was acting to deliver God's punishment on Daeron, he would have nodded and agreed with her.
Okay. I have some questions about the faceless men. Is it magick? The putting on a random face and becoming that person. Like when arya stark became walder frey she obviously had to be taller than she actually is, did the face transform her into him root and stem, or was did she have to wear lifts and pretend? Can faceless men and women die Or could they put on the face of someone younger and become that person and continue? If they wear the face of someone for a long time does that face age?
She is Ned's daughter. She saw him sentence men to death and was told it was right to do. I don't think she'll ever let go of the belief that judgment can be right, it would disrespect the memory of her father.
I think another part of it is that they feel she has a part to play in the war against the great other perhaps even as the sort of champion or instrument of the god of death in it's fight against the god of undeath. On a side note I don't think she will kill the book's equivalent of the night king but I do think she will make an opening for John or someone else to do so at the cost of her life in a very warhammer 40k sanguinius sort of way.
I honestly love this side of the internet- in deep geeks comment section 😊😂
I think what will draw Arya's attention from the Faceless Men will be the arrival of Jeyne Poole in the company of Ser Justin Massey (and the gold of the Iron Bank) as he seeks to hire mercenaries to bolster Stannis's forces in the North. Yes, she was being sent to Castle Black, but when Massey and the Iron Bank rep get there, Jon will be dead and the place in an uproar and no way would Massey leave the heir to Winterfell there alone. So he'll pack her off with him to Bravos, thinking to charm HER instead of Asha Greyjoy for an even BIGGER potential reward when the war is won. (And boy could she use a friendly, kind, seemingly respectful and charming man who doesn't abuse her, as she is severely traumatized.) The rumor that one of the Starks survived and escaped Westeros and is here seeking an army to reclaim her family castle will filter through gossip-rich Bravos. And who spent weeks/months listening to gossip and rumors but Arya herself, who of course will be outraged that someone is pretending to be HER - and then horrified if she discovers the PTSD -wrapped shell of Jeyne Poole. Arya could find out SO MUCH from her - about Littlefinger's betrayal, the Lannister masquerade plot, and whatever she leaned on her travels north and in her imprisonment at Winterfell. That will send her thinking she needs to go home again - her enemies are squatting in Winterfell with an army ready to attack.
And if GRRM goes even darker with poor Jeyne, she might even tell Arya she wants to die, or will take ill and die, leaving the potential for Arya to assume Jeyne's face for a return to the North and the chance to get close to the Boltons. Or she might just think to tag along with Massey as he (presumably?) heads back with his sellswords and just be there for the retaking of Winterfell.
Excellent treatment, and another example of how Weiss and Benioff butchered the story once they got beyond the source material. Arya is one of Martin’s favorite characters (and definitely his wife’s favorite) so hopefully we will have the opportunity to learn the rest of her story before Martin passes.
Please consider GRRM statement that the faceless see value in needle
in order for this question to be answered requires the publication of Winds of Winter, and that will never happen. I have made my peace with that.
Robert. This video slaps so hard.
maybe they trained her because somehow they knew she would the one to kill the night king. so they gave her the skills to do so. In the show version anyway.
Where is the art credits?
Her final test will be to drink from the black pool. She will remain a Stark, and become Faceless, for all intents and purposes.
She was never meant to be "No one", she was meant to be "ANYONE"
Dear Robert, hope you are well. I have only recently come across your channel. When the HBO series GOT first started I immediately went out and bought the books. Did the same for the Harry Potter series. Everyone knows the books are leaps and bounds above any show or movie. That brings me to you. I believe GRRM will never finish the books. His heart seems to be elsewhere. I believe a group of people, like yourself, with a very deep understanding of the story should be allowed to finish the series. I believe GRRM should allow a selected group of people the rights to finish the story. There are a few other ASOIAF enthusiasts that I watch, and a lot of junk channels as well, that I don't watch. Can you, or a group of people like you, approach GRRM with this idea. Personally, I view you as someone who would do it for the love of the story, not just for a bag of money. The original story needs to be finished properly. Not that garbage 'Dumb and Dumber' gave us to end the show. If you need a petition to present to GRRM I will add my signature. Thank you for your many fine videos, and your consideration of my thoughts.
Lockwood & Co is imho on par with the books and one main character, George, is actually even better in the show.
Also I'm not in GOT fandom but what you describe, just without Martin's blessing, is called a fanfiction, and I bet there is a few very good ones that tackle the ending of the series. Searching on AO^3 sorted by kudos or favourites or collections, or better, finding or asking on some forum or subreddit should lead you to them.
So I've got a different interpretation of the Faceless Men. I don't see them as being true fanatics ta a religion, but rather just good liars committed to a very lucrative bit. They say plainly that they serve the Many Face God, which I read as "money". Ironically, Arya growing up a rich lady in a castle has made her a poor candidate to serve as she's not accustomed to having to make choices based on necessity, though she's an ideal candidate to operate as a Faceless Man because of her circumstances and acumen.
The truth of the matter, and it sucks to look at the story this way, is that Bran wanted it this way. As much as I want to believe in agency, Bran is the puppet master
Would she be able to twist their theological argument back at them with "but surely if they are the God of Death, ALL deaths are the will of the Many-faced God?"
Will Martin finish the books is likely a more important question
After almost completing her training I don't think they'll just let her go. The Red witch knew she would kill white walkers. She knew she was important. Maybe the many face God knew as well. The red witch only told her when it was needed of her. Also what would prevent the other assassin from going rogue. There must be consequences and I don't think they would let her leave unless they knew she was important and would close many blue eyes
Id say becoming No One, is more about being able to tell a convincing lie, one perhaps that even she herself believes, and in believing so fully, can assume the faces of others, because, if you can deceive yourself, then deceiving others should come easy.
Is the many face god of death, the night king (the great other)? He has many faces as the wights and controls the army of the dead.
Arya killing the people on her list couldn't be seen as her answering her own prayer?