The Ecumenical Patriarch in the Orthodox Canonical Tradition - Fr. Alexander Rentel
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- Äas pĆidĂĄn 2. 06. 2022
- In this episode, Father Alexander Rentel discusses the place of the Ecumenical Patriarch in the Orthodox Christian canonical tradition.
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This is the eighth episode from my interview with Orthodox Archpriest Alexander Rentel, Chancellor of the OCA, scholar and professor of #Orthodox canon law at St. Vladimir's #Seminary.
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Very interesting.
What do you mean by Chancelor of the OCA?
From a follower, a NON Patreon follower, a complaint: your work is wonderful, Herman. That said, at the end of EVERY video, I groan because I want 10 minutes MORE! Easy for me to gripe, right! A non patron follower. Keep up the wonderful work and [maybe] consider giving us MORE per vid!
I don't know how this squares with the Canons, but I don't think that the Ecumenical Patriarchate has played a particularly constructive role over the last century based on what I've observed. In the interest of Orthodoxy, it might be time to start reconsidering its usefulness, else give the role to a different Patriarch. If the structure of our Church is indeed synodal (council-based), in my humble opinion, there's no strong need for this role. Clearly, the sitting Ecumenical Patriarch is unable to unite the churches for a proper Ecumenical Council, and if we rely on him, important questions simply will not be settled in an organized manner. Many important things today are accomplished by the different sides via fait accompli alone.
Well argued, I'd say. Its a tough one
There is no primacy of power of Patriarch of Constantinople in the Orthodox Tradition, just as there was no such primacy of Pope of Rome before the Great Schism.
The person known to push this novel idea the most was late Patriarch of Constantinople Meletios Metaxakis of shameful memory (who has also acted as Archbishop of Athens and Patriarch of Alexandria - the only person in history to act as a primate in three autocephalous Churches; already terminally ill, was running for Patriarch of Jerusalem, but died before that could happen. In result, all those Churches - but not the Jerusalem Church - switched to the new calendar and had other novelties introduced. AHEPA, the quasi-freemasonic Hellenic organization in North America, was established during despotos Meletios been an archbishop there.
Primacy properly understood is not a problem. Supremacy is a problem (universal, ordinary, and immediate jurisdiction)
Careful someone will label you a theorist and start defending George Soros đ
There is some difficulty here because Constantinople opposes the autocephaly of the OCA, but here the OCA chancellor makes a case that the EP has a âsupra- Diocesan Authorityâ that only grew throughout the Byzantine period. Doesnât that undermine the legitimacy as it related to autocephaly of the OCA in more immediately concerning ways? Iâm not agreeing or disagreeing or making any argument, but it sounds like he brings up an immediately difficult issue that his own diocese has been in the midst of for going on a century.
I don't think he was saying ONLY Constantinople could grant autocephaly, but there is some support that Constantinople can grant it when working within the Church. Autocephaly in and of itself is not something clearly established with how it is granted, when can/should it be taken away, and why it exists.
I am OCA myself and fully believe we should be considered an autocephalous church, but we must recognize that it is a messier concept in a modern world without Orthodox monarchs and emperors when the nations are not predominately Orthodox.
Almost all the historic national churches began their existence before the clearly-defined concept of a strong EP. In some cases, historical churches have appeared in spite of and in conflict with Constantinople (Bulgaria). In the case of Russia, there were as many games with politics between Kiev/Moscow and Constantinople/Istanbul as there were games with the Canonical status of its metropolitans and patriarchs (in the 14th through 16th centuries). I understand the need for a centralizing organizational force, but there is a strong argument that the authority of the EP is neither sufficient nor necessary for an Autocephalous church to exist in an area. In the case of the OCA (and I'm also in an OCA church), the best proof of its legitimacy would be the unity of its lay folk and leadership in the practice of the Orthodox faith. Seems to me that us American Orthodox need less Orthodox paperwork and more Orthodox praxis. The different jurisdictions really should start phasing out as they become one as Joachim suggested in one of his latter videos. I wouldn't feel any more or less secure in the OCA if we had the EP's approval to exist.
@@MrWolfman229 I think that your sentence about autocephaly not being something that is clearly established is a very good point. I am not sure however that some of these hierarchs want to agree with you on that. I think that the patriarchates would prefer to think of themselves as having far more authority than probably what that statement actually allows.
@@justian1772 wow, that was really well said. I really like the part about focusing more on praxis than on paperwork. I definitely stand 100% behind that.
@@justian1772 btw, that Joachim guy sounds like a baller.
Wouldnât the EP now be considered the first with no equals ? I mean first among equals it does not have any real primacy in practical terms. Great video; heâs one of the best to have on. Very knowledgeable.
May I also point out that supposed Patriarch of Constantinople jurisdiction over disputes of cleric of other Patriarchates is questionable at best. (Fr. Rentel makes it sound like something obvious.) But it's by far not the greatest blooper of his All-Holiness Patriarch Bartholomew: do people realize that great many "clerics" and "bishops" of recently installed so-called "orthodox church of Ukraine" have no ordination, not a shadow of one, not even from the excommunicated or defrocked former bishop like anathematized Denisenko (who once was a Metropolitan of Kiev). This is an in-your-face violation of canons.
Going from administration to primacy is the way of the world not of God, no wonder Christianity is not as strong as it was during the time of the apostles
The Patriarch of Constantinople is one among equals. Not a Pope.
*first* among equals but not universal, immediate, ordinary jurisdiction like papal supremacy.
Isnât Fr Rentel a sold out ecumenist ?
Yes like the whole SVS enterprise seems to be.
As a Protestant outsider, I find this debate mystifying. The Patriarche of Moscow has clearly ceased to be a follower of Jesus, if he ever was, and should be expelled if the rest of your church wants to maintain the claim that you are followers yourselves.
Youâre so out of your depth here. Show some humility and be silent.
@@CLFmoto87 Indeed. Could you help me understand then?
@@davidford694 I really canât. The ecclesiology is completely different and more importantly how the Church sees herself and her flock is different than Protestant understanding of what constitutes followers of Jesus. Just donât presume to judge a 2000 year old historical/spiritual entityâs legitimacy on your own whim. Find an Orthodox priest or if youâre near an Orthodox seminary find a professor of church history to explain it to you.
@@CLFmoto87 Just curious. I believe that your polity is based on the Bible, certain of the Church fathers, and the seven Councils. Where amongst their teachings is mass murder encouraged?
@@davidford694 stop watching the news.
Disturbing! So is the OCA canonically illegitimate? The EP loses whatever prerogatives he may have once he becomes a political agent and falls into heresy.
The OCA got legitimate recognition from the Moscow Patriarchy during an illegitimate time (when the MP were cooperating with the Communist govt.), so it's a bit murky. They trace their history back to the original Russian missionaries in Alaska, but this is sometimes disputed by other jurisdictions I think. They're in communion with almost all Churches though, including the EP and MP AFAIK.
The OCA is pretty weak and filled with heresy so it wouldnât surprise me.
@@Aquaticphilosophia You really want to get into a discussion of that? I could make the same statement about every jurisdiction and back it up with proof. Give me the jurisdiction you belong too so I can flood you with scandals from that jurisdiction. Nothing or no one body is perfect. Really ignorant. You are an ortho bro.
@@justian1772 seeing as ROCOR recognizes the OCA and is in full communion it's moot. The EP is jealous that the Greeks don't have a legitimate jurisdictional claim to America. Never has. Russia got here first so this is canonically her land to evangelize.
Seeing as GOARCH's episcopate pushes all kinds of liberal agendas that are diametrically opposed to Orthodoxy. (Fordham University, etc.) Under Athenogoras the EP sold itself to the forces of antichrist.
That's just the current state of things.
No, there are no canons on when, how, and who grants autocephaly, especially in a modern non-Orthodox world. Autocephaly in the past was a product of kingdoms being established and around empires. We do not have Orthodox monarchs and emperors and the major world powers are not really Orthodox(Russia is not proving to be the super power everyone once thought and they could easily become more beholden to China for support). The church needs to address what autocephaly is in a council and agree how it gets granted without military conflicts, especially for the regions not traditionally Orthodox.