The True Story of Dave Meltzer’s 5-Star Wrestling Matches
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- čas přidán 10. 06. 2024
- Never has one man's opinion held so much weight in the world of professional wrestling as that of Dave Meltzer. In this documentary, we examine the history of Wrestling Observer Newsletter Editor In Chief Dave Meltzer's 5-Star wrestling match rating system.
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Cultaholic provides video coverage of professional wrestling - including WWE (including WWE Raw, WWE SmackDown, NXT and 205 Live), AEW, IMPACT Wrestling (formerly TNA), NJPW, ROH, and more with daily news updates, reviews, lists, highlights, predictions, reactions, podcasts and much, much more. - Sport
I really hope this isn't taken as a backhand compliment.
Jack, the past year or so you've been on a tear as a presenter and writer. From your video essays that are all over Cultaholic and your on screen charisma has been just A+.
Been following the group since the what culture days and I'm really impressed with how much more confident, charismatic, and comfortable you have become. It shows brother 🎉
keep kicking ass and best of luck to everyone at cultaholic. 👏
Yeah it's been so cool to see them go from passionate fans a having a go to genuinely polished broadcasters!
I will agree.
Yep, from annoying to admirable.
That ain’t backhand.. you are right, he has grown so damn much
Jack's a true main eventer these days!
The greatest travesty to ever come from Uncle Dave's rating system is that Undertaker vs Michaels at Mania never got 5 stars
25 or 26? Hell both deserved it
@@Bigunk-hc2ri I prefer the first but that’s literally only because we’d seen it before the second time around; honestly the first match and Savage vs Steamboat are my top two favourite matches ever
Ikr it reached at the standards Dave wanted for a five star match.
@@BiG-JuPO1O1 then you see some of the ones since he’s given 5* to like the parking lot brawl on dynamite?
Not enough flippy shit.
Eversince the 5* line was overstepped it just seems completely random. I‘m not following the ratings too much but back when I was younger, a match getting 5* was a big deal. Nowadays, you look at the ratings and think "ah there‘s another 5.75* match".
Same here. I only think it feels more interesting when wwe gets one these days.
True but to be fair the workrate nowadays is leagues ahead of what it used to be.
When I found out Kurt Angle has 0 5* matches I never cared about them.
@@bobsucks9647 that’s a fair point. On the one hand, it rewards the extremely good matches we have nowadays which is a good thing. On the other hand, old classics are kind of dragged down a bit and lose a bit of their status by now "only" being 5*. It’s a double-edged sword but it’s a matter of opinions and in the end it’s just a rating from someone. Anybody can have their own ratings and your own opinion should be the only one that matters to you in this regard anyway.
the 5 star line was passed in 1989 when he gave Flair vs Steamboat 6 stars
So if Flair Steamboat was worth 10 and a quarter stars, and Wikipedia has it down as 6 stars, and the Philadelphia match was 4 and three quarter stars, what percentage chance has Samoa Joe got of beating Scott Steiner, if Kurt Angle doesn't even try?
I use Meltzer‘s ratings like i use movie reviews, when i see that a match got a good rating i put it on my watchlist and check it out later, people getting up in arms about his ratings is one of the silliest things in wrestling and that covers a lot of ground.
He barely give any 5 stars to WWE. Even they had dozens.
Same I don’t think I can bring up a time where I saw a high rated match and it flat out sucked, if anything Meltzer has been stingy with the stars and that’s fine.
@@noelchristian8373 5 stars in WWE = 4.5 stars in NJPW.
wrestling fans: Meltzer's rating dont matter!
also wrestling fans: how could meltzer not give my favourite wrestler 5 stars????
I think people say that more to ridicule the star ratings. “How is Adam Cole and The Bucks vs Christian Cage and Jurassic Express 5 stars but Taker vs HBK at WM 25 isn’t?” Ya feel me? 😅
They really don't matter, but a huge portion of the internet wrestling community sees his newsletter as gospel. Be it the match reviews or his "insider scoops", many people think that Uncle Dave is never wrong about anything.
That's why we mock him and those people so much. It's not just him either, all the dirtsheets are nothing but unfunny parodies of real reputable news sources. They're wrestling tabloids.
Wresting fans are really...really stupid dude. There's a reason Vince McMahon became a billionaire off of them despite his show sucking for 30 years and them hate watching.
@@PhenomResurrections08 but it didn’t suck for 30 years though, that’s why most peoples memories of wrestling and the existence of the casual fan is off the back of Vince McMahons shows
@@charlesbaker7505 it only sucked for like 10-15 years
Was at least hoping Norman Dooley being mentioned as Meltzer's inspiration for the Wrestling observer somewhere in the video.
I would rate this video 6 stars, but it wasn’t made in the Tokyo Dome. So 5 stars!
4.5 Stars, you mean.
*looks at WM Taker VS Michaels*
@@XXX_XI_MM Both 4 3/4
Ok Bruce. 😉
it's easy to see why there are so many 5+* matches from the 90s on... The access to match tapes became more prevalent. The internet also made it easier to instantly tell people "Hey! check out this match!"
Not really. Because you forget that the 2000s almost had no five star Matches
If it weren’t for Meltzer shedding light on Okada and Omega’s feud in NJPW, I wouldn’t have gotten back into wrestling in 2017. People do give journalists too much flack and forget that we are all autonomous individuals with our own different sensitivities and subjective logics. I’m just glad to have discovered and learned so much about wrestling history through a guy who has basically dedicated his whole entire life to documenting the industry. Align with their opinions or not, Meltzer and Cornette deserve at least a little admiration.
Like the vid said, people hate to be told what to think and journalists are always the scapegoats against the folks who refuse to do their own critical thinking 🤷♂️
Good Work! I really enjoyed the Video.
I think the reason why there are so few 5 Star Matches in the 2000s is, that Meltzer covered more MMA at that time.
Dave is secretly a closest otaku, that's the only way to explain his love for Japanese Wrestling
Japan wrestling for a long time was putting on better stuff. We remember the big matches over here like taker and Shawn but the stuff in Japan was riding high each night. The rise of the bullet club basically was incredible and the matches we got from it have been among the best.
I mean let's be honest, Japanese wrestling was decades ahead even in the 90s like the Misawa kobashi 1999 one and Misawa Kawada 1994. WWE even till this date has nothing that matches such classics
I think it's a combination of it actually being good and him trying to draw attention to it in America
Nah I used to think this way but since I got into NJPW and went back to watch the classic they’re just way better.
It would've been great if you briefly mentioned that Disgraced Johnny Ace has *TWO* five star matches in his career. Otherwise, an amazing video as always, Jack.
Jonny Ace has 2, Kurt Angel has zero.
and that's why i take Meltzer with a grain of salt.
Every five star match or even every acclaimed match Johnny Ace was apart of, he was surrounded with some highly talented stars. Two of his five star matches were tag matches where he was teaming with Steve Williams fighting Misawa and Kenta and the second was against Misawa and Akiyama. A ton of his greatest matches all featured a Pillar or tag with Williams.
I saw one match he tagged in once
John Ace is a disgrace?
@@djpaul8705 His association with Vince during that publicized scandal a few months ago is the reason for that title.
Cornette and Weasel Dooley actually invented it . Its ironic now Jim and Dave have fallen out . Meltzer DID turn me on to some stuff in Japan i was only vaguely familiar with in 90 or 91 . NJPW i knew enough to keep up with a bit . But the AJPW stuff blew me away when i finally got my hands on some tapes of the matches he raved about . IDC ! He was right on a LOT of those 90s AJPW matches ! I still watch those all the time . They dont get old to me and stand the test of time !
Its also interesting that it seems like Cornette and Meltzer who have been Friends have COMPLETLY different taste in Matches
And weasel dooley already broke the 5 stars scale in the 80's, but Cornette is mad at Meltzer for doing the same thing
@@Kr4ShSkeL True . But they never took it as seriously as Dave ! It was just for fun .
@@Brando-Lee3725 did you watch the video ? He doesn't take it seriously either, it's just a dude giving his opinion on matches
The fans take it too seriously
I love these editorial bits!
Mad props as always to Cultaholic!
Misawa ..... what a great worker. If you've never seen his matches. Watch his 90s work. You'll be thanking me
Another great long form piece of work from Cultaholic. Whether it be Jack, Sam, All-Jaoan's very own Ross or anyone else, you're all delivering so consistently at the minute.
Can't tell you much your content on here and twitch gets me through the day.
Thank you
P.s..if Tubman has edited this in Japan, it would be a 6 star video for me
Man though that Shamus Gunther match was a perfect 5/7
I was fortunate enough to see just one of Meltzer's 5+ star matches in person. Young Bucks vs. Lucha Brothers at All Out 2021.
Best tag team match of all time imo
I was at takeover New Orleans
Fantastic work, Jack and a fantastic edit too.
People give more importance to the ratings than dave himself does these days
It's just not that serious if a match has 4.5 stars instead of 5 for example, it still means it's a kickass match that you should check out if you didn't see it live
That's how i use them
It’s less so that people find them important. More so that non-Meltzer fans get annoyed by them because a niche audience segment browbeats people using his ratings to back it. Ex: The Bucks and Kenny largely entered the talk of “top guys” in the IWC because of the star system. That niche audience claims they’re some of the all time greatest and it’s largely influenced by the star system. I don’t think people would ever genuinely talk of them as all time greats if there was never a system of measurement like this. And people get peeved at the disparity in his ratings system. I.e. how the Bucks have had nine but an HBK has one I believe or a Kurt Angle has none.
It doesn't mean that it's kick ass. It can easily mean that it's shit. He has rated women's wrestling matches as high as the best men's matches of all-time. Therefore, it literally means nothing if he rates a match highly.
Not even the best women's wrestling matches should be rated anywhere remotely close to even average men's matches. If they had their own separate scale that he rated them with, then maybe you could say that his higher ratings mean you should at least check something out. But, since that's not the case, a highly rated match from him is just as likely to be dog shit as it is to being average as it to being good.
When comparing Will Osprey and Randy Orton, Dave asked, "who has more 4+ star matches"? He got us on that one. Dave gave Will many many more 4 star matches than he gave to Randy. Therefore.......
I like using Meltzer and Cagematch as a guide to watch good matches
Same
yeah I don't always agree with Meltzer's ratings but generally I find them to be a good guide to get you started one what to look for. This is of course excepting the 2000s because that's like the Meltzer dark age
Usually anything 4 and above is worth a watch. That's kinda the way to look at it.
@@KatarHero72 That was before. Now the 4 stars is average, 3 stars is below average/mediocre and 2 stars is bad
@@sebasfv5705 No the Scale has never changed. 0 stars and less is awful. 1 star is bad. 2 stars is average. 3 stars is good, 4 stars is great and 5 stars is perfect
I honestly had no clue that Dave Meltzer was around the wrestling industry for that long. This was a very insightful video, great job as always, Jack!
Man has watched more wrestling than any other human.
Fantastic video Jack! I really owe it to myself to watch some of these AJPW matches; I’ve never watched a single one currently!
Its important to remember these ratings arent based on anything objective and are just how they felt about the match at the time
Beautiful work as always Jack
Dave Meltezer's star rating in nutshell:
Ospreay, Omega, Okada, Young Bucks - exist
Dave - Instant 5 star
Theres a reason we say "5 stars in the Tokyo Dome"
Honestly I’ll look at Dave Ratings for me to what match I should watch and his ratings did get me into Japanese wrestling
29:11 literally how I've always used them. Great video
This video is very interesting. I use Meltzer as a recommendation scale, for example, “ok, he thinks this match is 5*? I’ll give it a watch.”
To me its 50/50, either its non stop spots either its really really good.
@@arthurdaffos1490 that’s true, I tend to look at the participants in the match as well as the ratings. If the participants are people I enjoy watching, I’ll 100% watch it, if not, I might not be inclined to give it a chance
He lifted the 5star scale from Weasel Dooley/Cornette who lifted it from TV Guide.
The REAL TRUE story but no one will acknowledge because they are cowards
Acknowledge Weasel Dooley!!
@@mrdethbuzzard4885 I live in his hometown. We need to find him!
Best Jack the Jobber video EVER. Really well-done!
great video, keep it up! thanks.
This was really well done! Kudos to everyone involved on this video!
This finally gave me the interest to go back and watch some of these 5+ star matches. Finally watched Mitsuharu Misawa vs. Toshiaki Kawada in '94 for the first time. Fantastic match! While Meltzer's opinions are his and his alone, they are a pretty good gauge as to some absolute classic matches that fans should check out!
Yet another quality vid Jack and team 👌🏻
Great video, thank you!
They forget to say that Rey was 18 at his first 5* match?
This making him the youngest 5* wrestler ever
That's amazing
It’s just one guy’s opinion, but it is a neat guide to some neat matches that I’ve found, Flair/Steamboat trilogy, Tiger Mask/Dynamite Kid, Misawa/Kobashi series, Austin/Hart, Wargames 87 and 92, among many.
This video is 5 ***** Enjoyed learning about some blind spots like AJW and Noah
It was the 4th Okada-Omega match and all the noise it generated that got me turned on to NJPW.
I have never EVER read DM's ratings and I have been watching since Survivor Series 89
Great video and interesting story. Hearing about the 6* Okada vs Omega match brought me back to pro wrestling
I wouldn’t still be a wrestling fan if it wasn’t for Meltzer. His 7 star rating for Omega - Okada introduced me to NJPW (and AEW as a result), around the time I was giving up on WWE (after only having gotten back into wrestling the Wrestlemania before that).
Personally there is just SOOOOO much wrestling at the moment that I can’t keep up, I don’t have enough time to watch like 5 shows a week and ppvs on weekends. Matches that interest me or I think will be good I’ll watch those, but for other matches where I’m not sure, I’ll just wait for the ratings to see if it’s worth the time. In the end you should always form your own opinion on the match but the ratings for me personally work really well as recommendations, I’ve watched a lot of matches that didn’t interest me or I didn’t know about but because they received a good rating I was checked them out. Basically put the ratings into brackets and it becomes much easier
0-2 bad matches just a waste of time
2-3 mediocre not really worth it either
3-4 solid matches but nothing special
4-5 good to great matches definitely watch those
I don't care if it's a 10 star match, if I don't even know who the two wrestlers are, I'm not gonna watch it.
@@deckzone3000 You could easily learn who they are with this cool little thing called Google.
Illustrative of the point made that other people care more about Dave's ratings than Dave probably does. Very interesting look at these matches.
I'll always say my thoughts as a 10 year old reading wrestling magazines in the 711
"Who the fuck is Dave Meltzer and why do we care what he thinks" lol
I see I was wise beyond my years then
Amazing Vid🙏🏻
I was at NXT UK Takeover: Cardiff, on the opposite of the hard cam side so I wasn't in the best spot for a view. Even then, I knew that Walter/Bate match was special. A wonderful and dramatic 45 minutes.
I've not been to many live wrestling shows, (7,8 and only 2 of em really meant anything) but I now take joy in finding out I've seen a 5 star match.
NJPW was the best promotion in the 2010's. Tanahashi, Nakamura, Okada, Omega, Styles, Naito.
The Bushwhackers getting a 5 star and -5 star match just reminds me of Sandra Bullock winning best actress and worst actress lol
Flair vs Stemboat definitely was the first 6 stars match, Dave said it himself when he was talking about Ospreay vs Omega, but he retro actively changed this rating to 5 stars, and he did the same thing for the Misawa vs Kawada from 94
I about died when you said, "Neptune Pro." 😂
Good work Jack this video was insightful and well done
Great video Jack 👌
Love it Jack. Good work
Idk if you Cultaholic folks still do them, but theres absolutely a "Every Dave Meltzer 5*+ match ranked" video you could do
Shoutout Weasel Dooley
The important thing is that Meltzer isn't wildly off on his scores. A 4< star match is considered good by 95% of the wrestling populace and because of that, it is a useful score. And you may be asking "Doesn't that mean most wrestling fans could do his job". Yes, if they had a back catalog and coverage, they could. But Dave Meltzer is just the person who has it. He's the star guy. If someone were to ask you for a shortlist of great matches in 1998, using that system as a reminder of matches would likely be a good starting point.
Thanks for this Jack.
The effort that goes into these true stories videos is amazing (dare I say "five star" :) ) - seriously, thanks Jack and Cultaholic team.
You failed to mention the Tokyo Dome effect. hahaha
The Budokan got more 5 stars than the Tokyo Dome, just saying
@@RainSennin_ismyAlt You failed to see the sarcasm/humor in my statement, I see.
Don't worry Jack. This year's G1 only had maybe three 5 star matches (Ospreay/Shingo, Ospreay/Naito, Ospreay/Okada)
One of my favorite matches of all time was Angle vs Shane McMahon (KotR) I mean it was a massive spot-fest with some misses but for Angle's wrestling style and Shane's in ring experience it was a good show
Thanks for this
Man, the hate in the comments for Dave makes me think that none of you actually watched this video and listened to what Jack said, or just refuse to listen to reason:
Not even Dave himself thinks his opinion is the be all end all. But it's a good guideline to find good matches. Which is especially helpful in an era where there's so much wrestling going on at the same time, and you just don't have the time to watch it all.
So when I'm looking for a good match to watch, I usually look at what Meltzer rated 4 and higher. Chances are high that I'm going to like it.
It’s funny that Meltzer probably just does this out of pure fun and enjoyment and people take it as seriously as they do.
I can understand for Wrestlers, a 5 Star rating for their match is like for actors getting a certified Fresh for their movies.
except the star rating comes from one person and rotten tomatoes aggregates many reviews, so no.
It's not even remotely the same thing dude.
@@oldemonteef “there was an attempt”
There's at least one thing we can all agree on about Meltzer.
He needs to CLEAN HIS FUCKING ROOM.
I don't always agree with Meltzers opinions or ratings, but as a wrestling fan it has introduced me to more than one type of wrestling growing up in an era where WWE was the only thing I had access to.
Ranking every match rated 5 stars or higher match by Dave meltzer
In the end, Meltzer is a fan of the business who has his own preferences just like the rest of us. He's entitled to his opinion, and it's his publication, so he's gonna rate matches the way he wants to. People need to just leave it alone because he's ONE MAN.
Dave Meltzer is the Mel Kiper of wrestling. He should have his own big board every year.
That Flair/Steamboat secret match bit was starting to sound like Steiner Math. Lol.
Fun Fact: Horace Hogan has more Meltzer rated 5 star matches than Kurt Angle
Who?
@@lonewrestling Hulk Hogans nephew... who wasn't very good at all. Had a run in WCW and did basically nothing there. Somehow has a 5 star in FMW though.
@@pandaplayz4146 oh. Thanks for letting me know
Fun Fact: John Laurinaitis has more 5 Star Matches than Kurt Angle, The Undertaker, Randy Orton, John Cena, Roman Reigns, Brock Lesnar, Mr. Perfect and The Rock COMBINED.
@@thomaskia8441 Both have 2
Any video or story about "the true story of Dave Meltzer's five star wrestling matches" that doesn't at least mention Norman Dooley's "Weasel’s World of Wrestling" doesn't seem complete.
As long as we know about the 5 star matches, now we gotta hear the story about the Minus 5 Star matches
I've seen a couple of his -5 star matches and they're truly something lol
I looked up a list and saw they have Mr. T vs Piper and Hogan vs Warrior WCW as the 2 -5 star matches, just hilarious to think about.
MINUS 5 STARS
@@spsawyer22 first thing that came to mind reading this comment
@@derickvera573 was that the Rebel v Shelly match that started that soundbite or Jenna vs Sharmell?
Note to anyone...both those matches are horrific
I've witnessed two 5 star matches with my own eyes.
WALTER v Tyler Bate @ Takeover Cardiff
& the Celtic Warrior v the Ring General @ Clash at the Castle
I also think WALTER vs Devlin @ OTT ScrapperMania is a good shout. One of the best matches I've ever seen live.
while i dont worship the 5-star system as much as i did years ago, i think its a pretty great reference for essential matches you have to see at least once. doesnt have to be a complete five star. even four stars are enough to draw intrigue. this is especially the case if youre just trying to get out of the wwe bubble.
The main issue w his ratings are that some wrestlers cater to his opinions
No mention of cornette's role in the rating system?
Shawn vs Taker at wrestlemania 25 is easily the greatest match of all time for me.
That's a great match but I get why it didn't get 5 stars. It's because of the dive botch. I remember watching it live it took me off the match for a bit, as I was focus on trying to understand if Taker was fine, because I genuinely was afraid he had broke or hurt his neck and everything could have gone to shit from a moment to the next. Then of course they pulled me back with the insane last part of it, with some of the nearest of falls to that point of the streak, but I was still worried Taker was hurt and just fighting through it. I had to watch it back knowing Taker was fine to appreciate it as much as it deserved.
@@BlackWind-rx5il you have a point but i don't understand's dave unbiased towards wwe. I mean i could give you 20 more matches which deserved 5 stars but didn't.
Shawn vs Kurt (WM 21)
Kurt vs Brock (Ironman Match)
Zayn vs Nakamura (Takeover Dallas)
Owens vs Zayn (Battleground 2016)
Styles vs Cena (SS 2016, RR 2017)
Banks vs Bayley (Both Matches)
Austin vs Bret (WM 13)
Bret vs Taker (SS 1997)
Austin vs Rock (WM X7)
Triple Threat Tlc (WM X7)
And the list goes on and on.
Im watching this in 2080 and the Neptune Pro (NPW) disrespect is laughable now, they've eclipsed New Japan with 900+ 5 star matches awarded by Dave Meltzer (he's still alive)
RIP to everyone wearing headphones at 10:29
I think Dave is off his rocker if he didn't even rate the Taker versus Michaels or any of the Daniel Bryan matches in the 2010s which would have put many of these to shame.
E-Drones: "Meltzer's ratings don't matter!!!1!!!1
Also E-Drones: "oh my gods Sheamus and Gunther had a 5 star match!!!11!!!
5 stars for this amazing video
Star rating in wrestling was created by Cornette and his friend :)
Yep, he suggested the star rating and he is regretting now.
Great video Jack, really interesting hearing the history of Meltzer 5 star matches. While I would never get angry at his ratings, I do use them as validation in some regards; Sheamus/Gunther getting 5 stars being a prime example, loved watching that match and it's great to see Sheamus getting some love. There are many matches that aren't 5 stars, especially from WWE, that I think deserved it (Banks/Belair and Knoxville/Zayn are two recent examples for me), but it's one man's opinion at the end of the day
I surprised you didn't put Uncle Dave on the thumbnail
I was at Arthur Ashe last year for Grand Slam. I felt like Onega/Danielson started out pretty damn slow and felt a little repetitive towards the middle by the time Danielson went for a repeat of the kick/chop/kick/chop spot from earlier in the match. But the latter half of the match was pure magic.
I'm going back next week. I hope the finals could hold a candle to that match.
Once upon a time, his ratings were on point. Those days are long ago
Now I'm ready for Dave's -5* matches!!
Where did you watch that 12 women Ironman tag team
A lot of the old Roh matches should be 7 star matches.
El Generico vs Kevin steen, cesaro vs zayn in nxt, low ki vs danielson vs daniels in first ever roh show
danielson didn't have 5 star matches because meltzer wasn't giving 5 stars in the 2000s because of WWE monopolization and Danielson wasted the 2010s doing cartoon stuff in wwe. on the other hand Meltzer gave Danielson "WON Technical Wrestler of the Year award" so many times that the award is literally named after Danielson. So Meltzer wasn't all that off.
Akiyama reminds me of Scotty Pippen. Someone who was insanely good, but not Jordan. That AJPW/NOAH crew was stacked to the gills with Pippen level guys.
Lars Sullivan has received more 5 star matches than:
Kurt Angle, Chris Jericho, Mick Foley, Triple H, Mr Perfect, Randy Orton, The Rock, Edge, Randy Savage, and Brock Lesnar COMBINED.
Just let that sink in for a minute
WAIT FRL?
Undertaker vs Shawn Michaels at WrestleMania 25 didn't get 5 stars. Since then I stopped giving a shit about Meltzer's ratings