I do the same thing with Agers to run it on subclasses I don't want to accidentally use my super energy with like running well on warlock or arc hunter and titan.
@@robertyoung406 putting the catalyst in changes it from kinetic damage to strand damage, so it loses the 10% damage boost that kinetic weapons intrinsically get
Bungie: “We hear you. We’re reducing the exotic primary damage bonus from 40% to 20%. We’re also reducing the damage of the grenade from quicksilver storm’s alternate fire mode by 50%. We will continue to monitor weapon feel over the coming seasons.”
bungie really became blizzard. - no fun allowed - monetization out of the ass - bad writing wonder how much time it will take for us to discover they were also stealing breast milk from the fridge.
Smaller random thing I found about the reload, if you are in Quisilver Storm’s grenade launcher form, and you fire your last shot, mashing or pressing reload very shortly after will get you to do the grenade loading animation for loading the normal 50 round mag. It’s significantly faster if you can get the timing.
as much as i want to use a primary, specials do a better job... bungies neglect for primary's is the bigger issue. oh and they are adding yellow bar trash ad's to stop exotics from doing that 40% more damage.... its overall just frustrating.
Huckleberry, Verglass, Quicksilver, Centrifuse, Osteo, and Thorn, are all great-feeling primaries with 2 things in common. 1, they have the ability to easily spool up their damage to a high potential. 2, they have a way to increase/bypass their reload animations in some way. This actually highlights the main weakness with other primary weapons. The amount of damage you can deal before needing to reload just isn't high enough unless you have something like the Veist trait or 4th-time's, etc. It's a huge problem when YOU have to reload and your enemies don't.
THIS! Thank you, it's nice to hear someone else say it. This is why I can't STAND certain weapons and archetypes like handcannons and most SMGs, their clip size is relatively small, their firing time is relatively short, and many of their reloads are PAINFULLY long. It feels like you spend more time reloading the weapon than you do firing it! Almost every single weapon I use in PvE is rolled with Subsistence, 4th times, auto-loading, reconstruction, etc. So I can keep up a steady stream of damage. People seem to ignore the effect reloading has on DPS, even in testing videos like Ironworker, he does "single mag DPS" dividing the total damage by the time to empty the mag, but what about AFTER THAT, y'know?
Legitimately, They're putting all of the buffs in the wrong places, I Genuinely appreciate a huge damage buff to hand cannons (Rip lucky pants when that comes out, they're definitely nerfing that) Hung jury's my favorite example of a great legendary weapon that's up to par with exotics; It's main thing is that it almost *always* has a snappy fast reload speed, and it makes it feel extremely good, It doesn't help that most exotic primaries don't have this issue, A lot of them have better, or much better reload speeds compared to legendary weapons, Every legendary gun just needs a massive blanket reload speed buff. Fallout 76 is actually an amazing contrast to this, Endless and quad is an extremely sought after legendary perk because It lets you avoid that reload and keep up constant DPS.
I totally agree, I've just been abusing Osteo+Necro with Strand and goddamn it feels OP. The only Legendary Primary I use is either the crafted Ikelos Smg, cause Voltshot is broken, or my Funnelweb with Perp Motion+Frenzy. Reload speed is a huge thing for balancing, hence why auto loading is amazing. Why reload when I can stow my gun, use Witherhoard and swap back?
I legitimately don’t think I’ve used a legendary primary in over a year outside of doing bounties. And now that I think about it I don’t recall ever using any primaries except for quicksilver, wish ender, and malfeasance. Primaries are just in a really weird spot right now.
@@the-slunch ammo economy is ass. Even with double specials on, ammo scavengers, special ammo finder etc. There will be times where don’t have anything and a lot of times where you’re low asf on both. Double specials isn’t always better.
Bungie've claimed that handcannons deal as much body dmg as prior to shadowkeep. However, they've completely ignored the hp value of enemies, alswell as nerfed damage perks (rampage, killklip). I remember clearly midnight coup one-shotting cabals on leviathan raid, wave after wave.
Bungie actually said that returning hcs to shadowkeep levels would be a nerf because of increased scaling. Also everything seems to be at -5 power scale now so we do less damage. HCs definitely need a buff still though
My friend and I went back to d1 recently and it’s crazy how much contrast the two games are in terms of gun play vs abilities. In d1 abilities are kind of just an add on, but in d2 the guns feel like the add ons to your ability builds lol. Basically whenever I do Ecthar in ghost of the deep I’m using some kind of ability focused build to clear ads super quick and basically only use my weapons for the wizards and the boss.
Well there isn't really many guns that can both clear the BS amounts of ads in Ecthar AND conserve enough ammo to do it consistently Idk who made that encounter but it very clearly forces you to play a certain way, especially on solo
Went back do d1 a year ago. My god, hand cannons actually felt like cannons, popping minor enemies left and right. No red bar should take more than one headshot from a HC, and it shouldn't take an entire cylinder to take out a major
Yeah that's how it pretty much feels right now. In the dungeon if I have to use my weapons to kill adds I feel like I messed up my ability rotation. Back in D1 though I would have been more prepared with my weapons before the encounter rather than just saving my weapons for the majors and mini bosses and deleting all other adds with just my abilities.
I think another part of primaries being so bad is that abilities are so good which you talk about. Why use an auto rifle to slowly kill the yellow bar in front of me when I can just throw a really low cooldown gernade or use an extremely strong melee . Normal guns just feel like trash to use in this "shooter" game.
@@synchronicity23218 if the alternative is making everything as bad as primaries are rn? yes thankfully, you can find something inbetween that instead of giving an extreme and saying "yes or no"
With GL and other single shot weapons: if your reload doesn't start as soon as you hit the button after firing, sprint forward once the animation finishes before you fire again. This resets something in the spaghetti code and lets you reload faster after firing again
I feel the same way about Lucky Pants with Malfeasance - it's a tactical nuke in your pocket that you can drop on every champion in any GM if you run Strand. It has vorpal now (bigger buff on primaries) and using forbearance and commemoration is perfect for nearly all content. In a raid, with an auto loading rocket and a rapid fire fusion rifle, great DPS rotation. In a Day 1 or master raid, it's a good last ditch DPS strat, if you don't have Hierarchy or Outbreak and the team is out of ammo
With the buff to chromatic fire, I’ve since dusted off my old timelost Fatebringer and had a blast using it this season. I forgot how much I loved this gun. Once hand cannons get buffed again, I can see myself using Ace, Hawkmoon and Thorn in master and GM content. This was a fun one to listen to, Datto, thanks. 😊❤
I’ve been running double secondary ever since special finisher got changed to use armour charge instead of super energy. Ammo economy is the kinda busted atm
Imo, the problem is inside of destiny (for pve) if your primary doesn't do the best dps, what's the point? Exotics are unique because they all offer some utility, but the differences between legendary primaries are minimal. I feel bungie should make legendary primaries have some kind of utility function outside of dps, otherwise they'll continue to be outclassed by exotic primaries and double specials.
Then we’re back to square one where Exotic primaries aren’t worth running over legendary primaries. The entire issue started with exotic primaries feeling almost exactly on par with legendary counterparts, making people choose exotic specials or heavies over it
The change to hand cannon kinda feels like it's leaning that way. They can differentiate weapons based on range, DPS, ease of use already, now they're experimenting with enemy type. They could have certain weapons deal % missing health or % current health damage, up to a cap if they wanted. Lot of ways they could go
I will say, Kinetic Tremors on specific weapons feels incredibly good. Like, Battle Scar/Chatter Bone with Kinetic tremors feels fantastic in higher end content to me. I'd give those a shot as primaries, as they are the only thing that feel like they can compete atm with the 15% bonus to kinetics plus a REALLY goated perk. It's pretty much what I used for the entirety of last season because of anti barrier pulse, and transfiguration can do a pretty decent job with it and rampage for overloads this season, so worth giving that stuff a shot. But yeah, outside of that, the only other weapons in 'true high end GM content' that I use as primaries are stuff with Volt shot, or stuff that synergies with the ability spam flavor I like. Volatile rounds will still make any primary useful regardless of what it is, and incandescent + some form of solar grenade will always be a joy to see. Hatchling I still like too, but I strictly use it with swarmers so that's probably why. But outside of that? I'm throwing on Le-Monarque, or Quicksilver, or Polaris Lance, or Malfesence etc. Or I'm throwing on Arbalest with a trace rifle and an LMG because infinite heavy and special is good (or a rocket if gally strat is used). There isn't much reason to pull out a good damage fatebringer when you just want synergistic aoe add clear or bust these days, and exotics just do it the best now. So it's either use those, or us Levi with the stuff I mentioned above. That's about it. I feel 90% of the reason I've gravitated so hard to things like explosive payload/frenzy/target lock/kinetic tremors in this game is just because legendaries by themselves just don't cut it anymore, and waiting to get a kill before your damage comes in isn't ok anymore. You gotta just have the damage increase right away or close to right away, or else the gun just doesn't do what you need it to do fast enough. Only exception would be volt shot due to just how amazing Jolt is, but everything else needs an immediate boost or else it doesn't feel good. Every one of my most used weapons have the aforementioned perks or have the subclass specific stuff and I'm using them strictly for those effects, there isn't really much wiggle room in between. And it's unfortunate. Also, this is buried so I'll probably just have to put it on the video when it comes out, but Age Old Bond with Repulser Brace/ Collective Action feels VERY good on void hunter with G-falcon, and feels pretty decent on other classes with instability too. Harvest/Cessation and you got a constant weapon damage bonus that lasts a good amount of time when enhanced, and it helps make up for the lack of damage the archtype does on it's own (along with the volatile rounds of course). Works great in higher end content and highly recommend (as that was mentioned). Repulsor Brace/Frenzy on Nessa's is great too. (Ohh, and before I forget, cool tech you can do with quicksilver that made me actually enjoy using it XD if you fire two GL shots then swap back/out of the GL mode, you get a full mag of quicksilver back, allowing you to skip the god awful reload on it. for those that feel the same, I strongly recommend).
I’ve heard a lot of people talking about the X factor of destiny feeling a little lost and I think this is part of the problem. The gunplay has always been so good and so special and the feeling of attachment I’ve had to my weapons in the fast was special. I’ve been playing with more gun based builds and have been having so much more fun and the game feels better to play. I’d personally rather play with guns than abilities but it doesn’t feel viable to use alot of guns
I've always liked Primary (and some Secondary) Exotics way more just cause it means you get to spend way more game time enjoying your fun toy. The Legendary Power meta has definitely been a happy state of affairs for me personally. More Primary buffs to only Legendaries could probably happen without shaking this up at all too, though.
In GL mode on quicksilver, I found that if you press the reload button and the fire button at the same time instead of just mashing reload you can bypass the regular reload when you shoot the final grenade. If you get it consistently you can go into an infinite loop of switching between the auto and GL without ever doing the regular reload.
I personally think exotics should be better than legendary weapons and that they should be, in some way, build defining. The problem is that there aren't enough special or heavy exotic weapons that are worth using over their legendary counterparts. Deciding which exotic weapon you use should be a difficult choice because there should be a plethora of good options vying for your attention, but right now, there's just not as many good choices which makes the choice easier.
Quicksilver is a continuation of an issue started with Vex Mythoclast. Primaries have infinite ammo, exotic primaries do unique things, both Vex and Storm become special weapons as their exotic perk. Now Vex is a raid exotic so it justifies this primary/special uniqueness by being 'difficult' to obtain. Storm costs $99.
Great video as always Datto. However, I think this situation is actually a symptom of a much more fundamental issue of the game, as well as loot-based games in general: Power Creep. Ever since the gameplay loop of "Make Number Go Up" has been discovered, it's been an arms race between the developers trying to provide incentives for players to keep wanting the number to go up, and the players themselves finding ever more inventive ways of making the numbers go as high as possible. And in an overwhelming majority of cases, the number in question has been "Damage". Ways to increase outgoing damage and negate incoming damage more than what was possible before. In a loot-based game, the existence of "Good Loot" and "Meta Builds" necessarily implies an imbalance of power levels among the options provided to the player. Homogenizing these options removes the incentive for players to keep playing and seek out novel solutions. But here's the problem: novelty cannot just come from a solution ( read "Weapons/Armor/Spells/Space Magic") being ever-more efficient at doing the thing it was designed to do. That's a linear progression of power that stifles interaction between the game systems in the long run. With this in mind, circling back to Destiny, our methods of interaction with the game have devolved into "Put on the thing that makes the health bar go away quickly". Chasing higher and higher damage numbers in any form (burst DPS/ Sustained DPS etc.) is the wrong idea in my opinion. I want my legendary weapons to be Swiss army knives: a mini toolbox with components that can solve different problems and work together to provide situational utility. Here are some potential ideas for everyone's consideration, to be used in any combination together: 1. Removing the barrel/mag/grip perks from random rolls and turning them into weapon mods. Having a weapon buildcrafting screen like the one we have for armor that allows us to unlock additional mod slots with upgrade materials, and slot in a combination of barrels, magazines, anti-champion mods and utility mods (like radar tuner/ targeting adjuster for example). 2. Adjust stat values for barrel/mag perks as well as weapon traits to provide more significant benefits, in exchange for having specific drawbacks and stat nerfs. For example, let me put on Arrowhead Break for +50 recoil direction, but I have to take a large hit to weapon stability instead. 3. Allow us to use the special reload function on legendary weapons. Imagine having the ability to set up 2 perks in the same column (or even different columns) with a keybind so that holding the long reload swaps perks in real time instead of having to go into the menu. I understand that these approaches require a massive overhaul of weapon systems as we know it in the game, but I believe that this approach to designing legendary weapons and this design philosophy in general could be a worthwhile pursuit for Bungie.
My brother I'd one of those players that just use whatever drops for them. They usually don't look at perks or Armor stats. He was struggling with doing some solo Lost Sextors for exotics he wanted and I asked him what build he was using and he told me he wasn't using a specific one, he just put something on. I introduced him to the stand suspend build and told him to unlock the Quicksilver Storm catalyst and he hasn't taken them off since.
im kinda torn cause i like that exotics are a bit in the spotlight again, for a while it felt like with the exception of some meta defining ones (galli, div, arbalest and a few with intrinsic anti champ) exotics felt kinda pointless, theyd just take the slot away, now it feels like a lot of exotics are worth using cause they feel good, which is nice cause exotics are just unique and fun to play with. but on the other hand legendaries shouldnt perform so badly that its not an option anymore at least with synergies you could see how the weapon is just a means to an end, but man, kinetics really struggle because of that, especially since because they deal slightly more raw damage, everyone would rather wanna use them for a special
This, holy shit, I agree, I just can’t believe that I am forced to use Mal or Ace with lucky pants in Master and GM, while I want to use Thunderlord, Arbalest, Toaster or Two Tailed. It’s so stupid how they I can’t use legendary primary and get judged immediately, leading to people leaving party or kicking me out in GM.
I've only ever used a legendary primary if I absolutley needed a exotic sepcial or heavy for champs/dps strats which even still is very infrequent. And literally all of my primaries have Minor spec on because otherwise nothing is going to die without heavy use of abilities. I feel like giving non-exotic primaries a 20% buff against minors would help close the gap, while still making exotics more worth it in higher end content. And maybe they could use a 5% buff against majors because if I'm out of special for that I'm basically screwed. I get that it would be a little more nuanced for each weapon type, SMGs don't need it, but they really need to close that gap.
Something to note for quicksilver is that if you perfectly time the reload on the gl you can shoot 3 gl shots in a row really quickly and skip the reload. You need to hit all of the reload timings in a row or wait a second (for some reason) before you do the next perfect reload. This is definitely a reload bug but it makes the gun feel even more smooth imo.
@@shakepreman What he was talking about was manual reloading which works for all weapons and should be used for all dps phases. What you need to do is Instead of mashing the reload is hit it once right as you fire the gl and do that for all 3 shots. The last shot will animation skip the reload and take you back to the main gun.
I usually use Wish-Ender in GM's when Barrier's are present, but I decided to switch things up for a few GM's and I ended up trying Randy's Throwing Knife with Kinetic Tremors and it's not bad at all. It's actually quite useful and fairly potent at what it does; it's perfectly fine for ad clearing from a safe distance along with dealing pretty good champion damage because of Kinetic Tremors. Double special weapons is still probably quicker in the grand scheme of things, but there are some legendary primaries that are totally viable, those legendary primaries just HAVE to have one of those sub-class specific perks like Voltshot or something, or kinetic tremors. Also, almost all of my GM runs are 2-man runs, just myself and my buddy.
Pretty much gotta build the primaries for add clear but there are some exceptions that can be built for single target dps or to help ability regen. Ideally, you want your legendary primary weapon to have something like voltshot, incandescent, dragonfly, firefly, etc. Handcannons and Scout Rifles are also good if they can get explosive payload as well as my crafted Nation of Beasts with Dragonfly/Explosive Payload is excellent.
My issue with the video is that it primarily focuses with Quicksilverstorm, while forgetting to mention other equally broken primary weapons such as Osteo. Additionally, the fact that they possess a **40% damage bonus against minor** further widens the gap. However, it is worth noting that 70% of exotic primaries are actually inferior to their legendary weapons. While exotic primaries tend to dominate in endgame PvE content, this is true only for a select few, not all of them. Furthermore, the discussion on double special weapons wasnt enough. Is that you shouldnt be using a primary on all content, the only exception being master difficulty activities, and even then with a skill team you can use double special. It's peculiar how in Grandmasters, not using an exotic primary puts you at a disadvantage, but this only applies to a limited number of them. Other exotic primaries, like Devil's Ruin, remain significantly underpowered.
a big problem that I uncovered particularly with bosses is that they balance boss health and damage expecting every fireteam to have Div and Well so basically you not on the intended boss health unless your using div and well
I got my hands on quicksilver only this season, dont have strand version yet, before i was a firm outbreak believer, but storm is really getting to me, and it is antibarier this season and its grenades explode on impact, i hope it stays that way
@@shockwave3838 it is still one of my favourite guns, nanites have bo range dropoff, it can scare championes, and deceptively stable on console, in terms of add clear idk how it holds up against a grenade launcher, but gotta play with a new toy before it gets a nerf
Could you please discuss the chokehold that double special has on the meta at the minute? Whilst a select few exotic primaries (mostly anti champ ones) are useable in endgame activities, primaries in general, including most exotics, feel incredibly overshadowed by the ease of use of double special
Where everything datto talks about really becomes a problem is how it fails newer players. If you have exotics to make an ability spam build or access to cracked exotic primaries like quicksilver and wish ender it really doesn’t feel like there’s anything wrong but watch new light players try to do any type of endgame content with limitations in their load outs and the 40% damage differential starts to look pretty bad
Malfeasance feels amazing since its catalyst, and the upcoming buff means it's going to perform outstandingly agaisnt anything, it's even decent backup dps if out of heavy and special
I think you forgot one crucial thing about quicksilver storm. When you shoot a grenade and then hold r to swap the firing mode it will reload, However, if you expend all the grenades you have to reload.
Right now, primary weapons (especially legendaries) are basically just champion stunners if i have them equipped. Farming the GM last night, Forbearance and an LMG were 95% of my kills.
The eay you feel about Quicksilver Storm is how I feel about Revision Zero. Such good damage for a primary wraoon with an alt fire mode that surpasses some heavies.
I wish I would have gone for the upgrades that season. I never bothered to do them. Now I have to wait until it comes back into the exotic mission rotator.
Can I interest you in using Symmetry,plays very similar to revision Zero and you only need to land your shots for the extra dmg,alt fire homes in enemies too
I have to correct you on one thing. You said if you own Lightfall you own Quicksilver, but you have to have paid the full $100 for the Lightfall bundle with the season passes. If you only bought the base version of Lightfall for $50 and did not go for the season pass bundle then you do not have Quicksilver. You can say I tested this because I got the base version of Lightfall and then later upgraded to the bundle and did not get Quicksilver until I did that. That said I do like running Quicksilver when I am running a strand build, and I run other weapons when I am running other subclasses based on those subclasses.
I still don't understand how we're almost back to Shadowkeep levels of damage yet HC's still can't one shot a red bar? It has to just be the power scaling making enemies higher level than us.
I would say this is a massive problem for me recently. But I would say generally Bungie buffed exotic primaries to the levels of your subclass abilities so you’d want to use them. This is an issue because i don’t know the last time i spent time actually shooting something. Our subclasses and exotic and exotic effects are so powerful now there really isn’t a reason to use a legendary primary at all
I really like QSS with Broodweaver. Makes using the wanderer piss easy. I just wish legendaries were buffed so the gap to exotic primaries wasn't as big (like a 15-20% difference) because I really like playing a hybrid threadling/suspend build, which greatly benefits from the Hatchling perk.
Yeah you're not wrong. I only really use legendary primaries that benefit from subclass builds. My Rufus' has a lot of Strand subclass buffing shots, my Voltshot weapons and Forbearance get helped by Ionic Traces and Blinding, and Headstone weapon needs fragments to buff your crystals, any Void or Osmosis weapon gets carried by becoming Volatile, and of course (especially as a Titan) my Incandescent weapons are carried by fragments and Sunspots. The only one that feels good with no added subclass benefit is Kinetic Tremors solely because it compliments how much health enemies have in GM's. Maybe damage perks could use a buff? Maybe legendaries' base damage? I dunno but I would like to use these guns without requiring top tier perk combos that mostly come from raids or dungeons (Demo + Hatchling, Explosive Payload + Incandescent, Demo + Voltshot). Would be nice if even poorly or just decently rolled legendaries felt at least decent in high end content and your god rolls feel mildly overpowered, whilst exotic primaries do feel overpowered.
Probably just worth bringing back pre-shafowkeep crit multipliers, but only on legendaries. They could make the point of implementing legendary 'special reloads' that swap legendaries to a higher caliber ammo pool.
Clyde pointed this out a couple seasons ago that the only thing you needed was arby, x smg, and cataclysmic and you're set. While the endgame dmg meta has shifted slightly it's not really anything new. I'm not sure what exactly is to blame for it, but the dmg meta has been stale for a long time. Ntm that our power has grown in competition with enemy potency (at least mostly) that while you can make it through the game with legendary gear, it doesn't make it fun.
Just a note about the reloading with grenades you should also manually press reload on your finally grenade because you can animation skip the normal reload and get back to shooting faster for more grenade uptime
I tested both the strand and kinetic quicksilver storm in the light blade and fallen saber gms and the GL shot did the exact same damage on both. So either its base form doesn't get the kinetic bonus or they both do. Note: both were overcharged due to the anti-barrier auto mod.
I tend to use a lot of legendary primaries, but that's mainly because they have subclass verbs. I use bows a lot because I really enjoy them and haven't really been having too many problems. Legendary primaries can do pretty decently if you use surges, but it's kind of a big ask when Exotic primaries can do the same thing (if not better) at base. I mostly tend to use Legendary primaries because I have Conditional Finality or Witherhoard equipped at all times. I'll then slot in whatever legendary primarily fits my build
side note the manual reloads of quicksilver in grenade mode can also be done to quickly reload the regular magazine too the reload no matter which mode you're in simply fills the magazine. through this you can use the grenade mode's reload animation to reload the regular mode's magazine for a super fast reload. is nice, is fun legendary weapons just feel... there. Placeholders. Slot fillers. If I'm not using an exotic primary I'm either running double special and a machine gun or an ability build that has a primary weapon just to give the special weapon more ammo
I have personally gotten so good at doing the manual grenade reload thing that I can skip the normal reload for when I run out of grenades. Essentially, if you mash R fast and at the right time, you can make the gun do a "grenade reload" after you run out of grenades in order to get to primary fire faster.
Re: Age-Old Bond To me, High-Impact (360rpm) Auto Rifles have always felt like dogwater. Age-Old Bond didn't see use even way back in Forsaken not just because it had a shit perk pool, but it *also* just belonged to an archetype that still hasn't felt good for four years. (I started with Forsaken, idk what they were like at launch or during CoO/Warmind). Precision ARs (450rpm) have the same problem to a lesser degree, with Breakneck temporarily bucking the trend because it was Breakneck and it literally broke through the limits of its archetype. Scouts felt better even when they weren't that good.
I'm personally in a perpetual limbo of using crafted weapons in casual content at least until I get them to about level 16 and do a reshape with all perks unlocked. A select few gets more playtime and the honor of having enhanced perks depending on how good they are as weapons and my final perk selection but most sit in the vault at lvl 16 when they get crafted into their final shape (heh). Of course I use more meta picks and exotics for raids or pvp when I need to but this tends keeps my slots occupied and varied by rotating around... "sub-par" legendary weapons throughout the season. I usually run out of weapons to level basically around the time the season changes to introduce new ones. So while it may not feel as good to use a newly crafted weapon, this loop + my insatiable need to collect does a good job of adding variety to my weapon choices especially when I used to essentially be a '1 loadout for all content' guy before weapon levelling was introduced. No I will not mindlessly farm Shiro Chi (unless I really want to) because that's not playing a game, that's doing a chore. Same with fishing.
I love hand cannons, definitely looking forward to the future buffs. I’m usually not big on 180s but Trust just feels different, although mostly I think I use it because it looks and sounds cool. I would use Sunshot but the way it applies scorch just doesn’t work very well and I can rarely take advantage of it. If it was solar I’d never take hawkmoon out of my kinetic slot, I don’t even care that it doesn’t scorch
It's weird since we just got primary weapon buffs back in April that closed the gap on a lot of weapon types so they should actually feel better to use compared to a year or two ago, but I think part of the problem is those same buffs effected their exotic counterparts too which then makes the exotics even better in comparison, so I think what's needed next is a specific legendary targeted buff that increases primary damage vs red bars by +15% but then reduce the exotic red bar buff to +25% so they stay roughly where they're already at. (1.15 x 1.25 = 1.4375 so exotics would still be slightly better but not by as wide of a margin.) I'm weird and still like to use Legendary primaries especially if I'm using an exotic special or heavy, but I will say that perk choice is what will make or break their effectiveness as it is required that you either have some kind of neutral damage booster like Frenzy or Explosive Payload to make up the difference (And by neutral I mean any perk that will benefit you without a kill needed.) or a very strong kill perk like Voltshot that makes it easy to chain from one kill to another where the effect is strong enough that it's worth working for that first kill so you can cascade from there. (Which is why weapons like Posterity are my favorite since it lets you have both these things at the same time.)
Honestly from what Ive been seeing Guardians can only lose fights in cutscenes. The power creep from the last 2 years I’ve stopped playing has been insane to watch, and I don’t think that’s a problem.
It's honestly wild how much easier the game has gotten ever since I swapped to permanent forebearance + izzies/agers/deliverance/maybe wish ender. Even on low level stuff i just swap to eagers instead of swapping to a primary
“But there is one gun, that I will use, instead of a heavy machine gun, and that is…” Queenbreaker’s Bow. So good this season, especially on a Getaway Artist Warlock.
The last few years, the game has only gotten faster and faster for both PvE and PvP, leaving a lot of the old slow and steady playstyle in the dust. I remember when Hallowed Layer's boss room was a nightmare due to the sheer quantity of ads that would spawn, this is no longer a problem since we shifted away from primaries being our main solution to dealing with enemies. I've since found the best way to use primaries and even some special/heavy weapons today is to use them for their utility to augment the bulk of your other playstyles/skills. Champ stunning when your subclass might not be enough on it's own, using perks like Demo, Wellspring, and Pugilist (or even Classy Contender/Bray Inheritance) to help ensure better uptime on your abilities, subclass perks like voltshot, incandescent, and repulsor brace for synergy in your builds, or some other misc benefit like disorienting grenades, OTP, Chill Clip, Shoot to Loot, even Headstone. I still find some damaging perks worth the slot due to ease of activation especially when in combination with perks listed above or when paired with another damaging perk like dragonfly or explosive payload in the 3rd column, these perks include frenzy, golden tricorn (since it also works well with our ability spam builds), and the recent paracausal affinity and kinetic tremors.
The only legendary primary I even consider using anymore is the ikelos smg, mainly because voltshot is basically an exotic perk. Otherwise I just run double special, because there is literally no reason to run a primary because I can just have infinite heavy and special
Kinda two things, it's just passive damage that goes on while you mow someone down. Its also aoe and combos great with shoot to loot. Making it really easy to pick up special, heavy, and orbs without having to go out to get them and risk getting killed.
Kinetic tremors lets you sit back at a safe distance and deal aoe damage with a single target legendary primary. Pretty huge bump to legendary primary damage, especially against champs. Pair with shoot to loot and the large explosions (kinetic tremors proc 3 explosions per activation) picks up ammo from a very generous range. I wouldn't use kinetic tremors in anything below master content though as things die too quickly. It mainly shines in GMs
I used osteo striga for 95% of the time before season of the deep Now with quicksilver storm I use quicksilver storm as much as I used to use osteo Now I mainly use quicksilver and osteo in a majority of activities because of how good they both are for basically free
Abilities are so OP that I feel running two specials doesn't feel punishing at all tbh, I just run glaive + GL and whatever exotic heavy i want and because I always have abilities up it feels so good to do dmg with everything.
i like the primary that shoots the bullets and makes enemies go "agh"
Gross
ah a person of culture I see
Clearly one of the damage loadouts in the whole game
Basic af.
All I see is 🗿
If you put on the catalyst and regret it, grab a fresh quicksilver storm from collections and don't equip the catalyst. Then you have both versions.
However, gold border
@@mathiaspetersson2728 good point 👍
I do the same thing with Agers to run it on subclasses I don't want to accidentally use my super energy with like running well on warlock or arc hunter and titan.
Whats wrong with putting the catalyst on?
@@robertyoung406 putting the catalyst in changes it from kinetic damage to strand damage, so it loses the 10% damage boost that kinetic weapons intrinsically get
3:16 very good advice for us hunters, thanks Datto!
Legend has it Hunters are still waiting for that advice even to this day.....
I mean you can summon tangles and use them to grapple around. But with just equipping strand youre making enough tangles
Bungie: “We hear you. We’re reducing the exotic primary damage bonus from 40% to 20%. We’re also reducing the damage of the grenade from quicksilver storm’s alternate fire mode by 50%. We will continue to monitor weapon feel over the coming seasons.”
Watch, that will probably happen.
bungie really became blizzard.
- no fun allowed
- monetization out of the ass
- bad writing
wonder how much time it will take for us to discover they were also stealing breast milk from the fridge.
@@KesvalkShame that as much as I hate Blizzard, Diablo 4 seems fantastic.
@@Kesvalkwdym blizzard is doing great rn with d4 unless you talking blizzard ow2 then thats fair lol
Oh and don't forget they will buff bows by 0.04% :)
Smaller random thing I found about the reload, if you are in Quisilver Storm’s grenade launcher form, and you fire your last shot, mashing or pressing reload very shortly after will get you to do the grenade loading animation for loading the normal 50 round mag. It’s significantly faster if you can get the timing.
I must try this now
I've managed to do that a few times! It's tricky to pull off but it's very good
Playing 3D Chess: Use primary!
Playing 4D Chess: Use **EXOTIC** primary!
Playing 5D Chess: double special
I got you one better, double heavy
Honestly true, double special is so much stronger than a primary/special setup its not even close.
as much as i want to use a primary, specials do a better job... bungies neglect for primary's is the bigger issue. oh and they are adding yellow bar trash ad's to stop exotics from doing that 40% more damage.... its overall just frustrating.
Been doing that for several years now, outside of fringe circumstances there’s no need for primaries much anymore lmao
@@NikFlyer at least you fucking get it
Huckleberry, Verglass, Quicksilver, Centrifuse, Osteo, and Thorn, are all great-feeling primaries with 2 things in common. 1, they have the ability to easily spool up their damage to a high potential. 2, they have a way to increase/bypass their reload animations in some way. This actually highlights the main weakness with other primary weapons. The amount of damage you can deal before needing to reload just isn't high enough unless you have something like the Veist trait or 4th-time's, etc. It's a huge problem when YOU have to reload and your enemies don't.
THIS! Thank you, it's nice to hear someone else say it. This is why I can't STAND certain weapons and archetypes like handcannons and most SMGs, their clip size is relatively small, their firing time is relatively short, and many of their reloads are PAINFULLY long. It feels like you spend more time reloading the weapon than you do firing it!
Almost every single weapon I use in PvE is rolled with Subsistence, 4th times, auto-loading, reconstruction, etc. So I can keep up a steady stream of damage.
People seem to ignore the effect reloading has on DPS, even in testing videos like Ironworker, he does "single mag DPS" dividing the total damage by the time to empty the mag, but what about AFTER THAT, y'know?
Legitimately, They're putting all of the buffs in the wrong places, I Genuinely appreciate a huge damage buff to hand cannons (Rip lucky pants when that comes out, they're definitely nerfing that) Hung jury's my favorite example of a great legendary weapon that's up to par with exotics; It's main thing is that it almost *always* has a snappy fast reload speed, and it makes it feel extremely good, It doesn't help that most exotic primaries don't have this issue, A lot of them have better, or much better reload speeds compared to legendary weapons, Every legendary gun just needs a massive blanket reload speed buff.
Fallout 76 is actually an amazing contrast to this, Endless and quad is an extremely sought after legendary perk because It lets you avoid that reload and keep up constant DPS.
I think it'd be dope if Subsistence proc'ed Kill Clip naturally, since it partially reloads the gun
I totally agree, I've just been abusing Osteo+Necro with Strand and goddamn it feels OP. The only Legendary Primary I use is either the crafted Ikelos Smg, cause Voltshot is broken, or my Funnelweb with Perp Motion+Frenzy. Reload speed is a huge thing for balancing, hence why auto loading is amazing. Why reload when I can stow my gun, use Witherhoard and swap back?
this is legit EXTREMELY good feedback.
I legitimately don’t think I’ve used a legendary primary in over a year outside of doing bounties. And now that I think about it I don’t recall ever using any primaries except for quicksilver, wish ender, and malfeasance. Primaries are just in a really weird spot right now.
yh, they are useless in endgame, unless the champions call for it
Theres a few really good ones
@@dpw0499the immortal and rufuus fury say hi lol. Also the new stasis smg, unforgiven etc are all really good etc.
@@hatchell18Crucible is a different story, but a double special loadout is just better than any primary
@@the-slunch ammo economy is ass. Even with double specials on, ammo scavengers, special ammo finder etc. There will be times where don’t have anything and a lot of times where you’re low asf on both. Double specials isn’t always better.
Bungie've claimed that handcannons deal as much body dmg as prior to shadowkeep. However, they've completely ignored the hp value of enemies, alswell as nerfed damage perks (rampage, killklip).
I remember clearly midnight coup one-shotting cabals on leviathan raid, wave after wave.
Use better damage perks
@@WHlSKYtx all the better damage perks are on exotics
This comment confuses me to no end.
Bungie actually said that returning hcs to shadowkeep levels would be a nerf because of increased scaling. Also everything seems to be at -5 power scale now so we do less damage. HCs definitely need a buff still though
Handcannons one shotting red bars in Red War era D2 is what made me use midnight coup and only that. Now I struggle to find any primary to use
datto's videos have gotten so efficient that I can now be given my new opinion solely through the title
My friend and I went back to d1 recently and it’s crazy how much contrast the two games are in terms of gun play vs abilities. In d1 abilities are kind of just an add on, but in d2 the guns feel like the add ons to your ability builds lol. Basically whenever I do Ecthar in ghost of the deep I’m using some kind of ability focused build to clear ads super quick and basically only use my weapons for the wizards and the boss.
2 sides of the same coin
Well there isn't really many guns that can both clear the BS amounts of ads in Ecthar AND conserve enough ammo to do it consistently
Idk who made that encounter but it very clearly forces you to play a certain way, especially on solo
Went back do d1 a year ago. My god, hand cannons actually felt like cannons, popping minor enemies left and right.
No red bar should take more than one headshot from a HC, and it shouldn't take an entire cylinder to take out a major
Yeah that's how it pretty much feels right now. In the dungeon if I have to use my weapons to kill adds I feel like I messed up my ability rotation. Back in D1 though I would have been more prepared with my weapons before the encounter rather than just saving my weapons for the majors and mini bosses and deleting all other adds with just my abilities.
"and for hunter..." had me laughing so hard!
I think another part of primaries being so bad is that abilities are so good which you talk about. Why use an auto rifle to slowly kill the yellow bar in front of me when I can just throw a really low cooldown gernade or use an extremely strong melee . Normal guns just feel like trash to use in this "shooter" game.
and bungie would rather nerf abilities than make weapons worth using. so soon everything will feel like slapping wet paper towels at the enemy
@@dankerbellwould you rather everything in the game kills enemies in one hit?
@@synchronicity23218 if the alternative is making everything as bad as primaries are rn? yes
thankfully, you can find something inbetween that instead of giving an extreme and saying "yes or no"
@@synchronicity23218 Remember D2 vanilla? Abilities did no damage and double primary. That's the alternative. No chance in hell.
@@PG-20doesn't have to be such an extreme lol. They can find a balance between both. Well, it is bungie, they'd prpbably screw it up somehow
With GL and other single shot weapons: if your reload doesn't start as soon as you hit the button after firing, sprint forward once the animation finishes before you fire again. This resets something in the spaghetti code and lets you reload faster after firing again
I went back to D1 briefly, just to have a little fun and I had forgotten that guns, especially hand cannons actually did damage in that game
I feel the same way about Lucky Pants with Malfeasance - it's a tactical nuke in your pocket that you can drop on every champion in any GM if you run Strand. It has vorpal now (bigger buff on primaries) and using forbearance and commemoration is perfect for nearly all content. In a raid, with an auto loading rocket and a rapid fire fusion rifle, great DPS rotation. In a Day 1 or master raid, it's a good last ditch DPS strat, if you don't have Hierarchy or Outbreak and the team is out of ammo
With the buff to chromatic fire, I’ve since dusted off my old timelost Fatebringer and had a blast using it this season. I forgot how much I loved this gun. Once hand cannons get buffed again, I can see myself using Ace, Hawkmoon and Thorn in master and GM content. This was a fun one to listen to, Datto, thanks. 😊❤
I’ve been running double secondary ever since special finisher got changed to use armour charge instead of super energy. Ammo economy is the kinda busted atm
"and for hunter
...
..." 😂
Imo, the problem is inside of destiny (for pve) if your primary doesn't do the best dps, what's the point? Exotics are unique because they all offer some utility, but the differences between legendary primaries are minimal. I feel bungie should make legendary primaries have some kind of utility function outside of dps, otherwise they'll continue to be outclassed by exotic primaries and double specials.
honestly, i think thats what theyre trying to go for with origin traits, its just not as useful as exotics
Then we’re back to square one where Exotic primaries aren’t worth running over legendary primaries. The entire issue started with exotic primaries feeling almost exactly on par with legendary counterparts, making people choose exotic specials or heavies over it
That's what champions are for, to some extent. It's not great utility, but being able to stun champions with a primary is at least... Something...
The change to hand cannon kinda feels like it's leaning that way. They can differentiate weapons based on range, DPS, ease of use already, now they're experimenting with enemy type.
They could have certain weapons deal % missing health or % current health damage, up to a cap if they wanted. Lot of ways they could go
@@BriggsianI still don’t even use a primary for champs. Just use abilities
I will say, Kinetic Tremors on specific weapons feels incredibly good. Like, Battle Scar/Chatter Bone with Kinetic tremors feels fantastic in higher end content to me. I'd give those a shot as primaries, as they are the only thing that feel like they can compete atm with the 15% bonus to kinetics plus a REALLY goated perk. It's pretty much what I used for the entirety of last season because of anti barrier pulse, and transfiguration can do a pretty decent job with it and rampage for overloads this season, so worth giving that stuff a shot.
But yeah, outside of that, the only other weapons in 'true high end GM content' that I use as primaries are stuff with Volt shot, or stuff that synergies with the ability spam flavor I like. Volatile rounds will still make any primary useful regardless of what it is, and incandescent + some form of solar grenade will always be a joy to see. Hatchling I still like too, but I strictly use it with swarmers so that's probably why.
But outside of that? I'm throwing on Le-Monarque, or Quicksilver, or Polaris Lance, or Malfesence etc. Or I'm throwing on Arbalest with a trace rifle and an LMG because infinite heavy and special is good (or a rocket if gally strat is used). There isn't much reason to pull out a good damage fatebringer when you just want synergistic aoe add clear or bust these days, and exotics just do it the best now. So it's either use those, or us Levi with the stuff I mentioned above. That's about it.
I feel 90% of the reason I've gravitated so hard to things like explosive payload/frenzy/target lock/kinetic tremors in this game is just because legendaries by themselves just don't cut it anymore, and waiting to get a kill before your damage comes in isn't ok anymore. You gotta just have the damage increase right away or close to right away, or else the gun just doesn't do what you need it to do fast enough. Only exception would be volt shot due to just how amazing Jolt is, but everything else needs an immediate boost or else it doesn't feel good. Every one of my most used weapons have the aforementioned perks or have the subclass specific stuff and I'm using them strictly for those effects, there isn't really much wiggle room in between. And it's unfortunate.
Also, this is buried so I'll probably just have to put it on the video when it comes out, but Age Old Bond with Repulser Brace/ Collective Action feels VERY good on void hunter with G-falcon, and feels pretty decent on other classes with instability too. Harvest/Cessation and you got a constant weapon damage bonus that lasts a good amount of time when enhanced, and it helps make up for the lack of damage the archtype does on it's own (along with the volatile rounds of course). Works great in higher end content and highly recommend (as that was mentioned). Repulsor Brace/Frenzy on Nessa's is great too.
(Ohh, and before I forget, cool tech you can do with quicksilver that made me actually enjoy using it XD if you fire two GL shots then swap back/out of the GL mode, you get a full mag of quicksilver back, allowing you to skip the god awful reload on it. for those that feel the same, I strongly recommend).
I’ve heard a lot of people talking about the X factor of destiny feeling a little lost and I think this is part of the problem. The gunplay has always been so good and so special and the feeling of attachment I’ve had to my weapons in the fast was special. I’ve been playing with more gun based builds and have been having so much more fun and the game feels better to play. I’d personally rather play with guns than abilities but it doesn’t feel viable to use alot of guns
I've always liked Primary (and some Secondary) Exotics way more just cause it means you get to spend way more game time enjoying your fun toy. The Legendary Power meta has definitely been a happy state of affairs for me personally. More Primary buffs to only Legendaries could probably happen without shaking this up at all too, though.
In GL mode on quicksilver, I found that if you press the reload button and the fire button at the same time instead of just mashing reload you can bypass the regular reload when you shoot the final grenade. If you get it consistently you can go into an infinite loop of switching between the auto and GL without ever doing the regular reload.
As someone who used Exotic Primaries even when they were bad, I'm loving the prevalence of them being good finally.
Opinion recieved and integrated successfully
I personally think exotics should be better than legendary weapons and that they should be, in some way, build defining. The problem is that there aren't enough special or heavy exotic weapons that are worth using over their legendary counterparts. Deciding which exotic weapon you use should be a difficult choice because there should be a plethora of good options vying for your attention, but right now, there's just not as many good choices which makes the choice easier.
Quicksilver is a continuation of an issue started with Vex Mythoclast. Primaries have infinite ammo, exotic primaries do unique things, both Vex and Storm become special weapons as their exotic perk. Now Vex is a raid exotic so it justifies this primary/special uniqueness by being 'difficult' to obtain. Storm costs $99.
For anyone out there that’s loving the Chill Clip Riptide: Zephyr with Cold Steel is a very similar experience and you may have fun with it.
Wish ender has been glued to my hands in any content since the first day I got it
The legendary weapons really feel like, Run your matching element smg or bow, thats your options. The rest just cant keep up and its sad.
Great video as always Datto. However, I think this situation is actually a symptom of a much more fundamental issue of the game, as well as loot-based games in general: Power Creep.
Ever since the gameplay loop of "Make Number Go Up" has been discovered, it's been an arms race between the developers trying to provide incentives for players to keep wanting the number to go up, and the players themselves finding ever more inventive ways of making the numbers go as high as possible. And in an overwhelming majority of cases, the number in question has been "Damage". Ways to increase outgoing damage and negate incoming damage more than what was possible before.
In a loot-based game, the existence of "Good Loot" and "Meta Builds" necessarily implies an imbalance of power levels among the options provided to the player. Homogenizing these options removes the incentive for players to keep playing and seek out novel solutions. But here's the problem: novelty cannot just come from a solution ( read "Weapons/Armor/Spells/Space Magic") being ever-more efficient at doing the thing it was designed to do. That's a linear progression of power that stifles interaction between the game systems in the long run.
With this in mind, circling back to Destiny, our methods of interaction with the game have devolved into "Put on the thing that makes the health bar go away quickly". Chasing higher and higher damage numbers in any form (burst DPS/ Sustained DPS etc.) is the wrong idea in my opinion. I want my legendary weapons to be Swiss army knives: a mini toolbox with components that can solve different problems and work together to provide situational utility. Here are some potential ideas for everyone's consideration, to be used in any combination together:
1. Removing the barrel/mag/grip perks from random rolls and turning them into weapon mods. Having a weapon buildcrafting screen like the one we have for armor that allows us to unlock additional mod slots with upgrade materials, and slot in a combination of barrels, magazines, anti-champion mods and utility mods (like radar tuner/ targeting adjuster for example).
2. Adjust stat values for barrel/mag perks as well as weapon traits to provide more significant benefits, in exchange for having specific drawbacks and stat nerfs. For example, let me put on Arrowhead Break for +50 recoil direction, but I have to take a large hit to weapon stability instead.
3. Allow us to use the special reload function on legendary weapons. Imagine having the ability to set up 2 perks in the same column (or even different columns) with a keybind so that holding the long reload swaps perks in real time instead of having to go into the menu.
I understand that these approaches require a massive overhaul of weapon systems as we know it in the game, but I believe that this approach to designing legendary weapons and this design philosophy in general could be a worthwhile pursuit for Bungie.
My brother I'd one of those players that just use whatever drops for them. They usually don't look at perks or Armor stats. He was struggling with doing some solo Lost Sextors for exotics he wanted and I asked him what build he was using and he told me he wasn't using a specific one, he just put something on.
I introduced him to the stand suspend build and told him to unlock the Quicksilver Storm catalyst and he hasn't taken them off since.
im kinda torn cause i like that exotics are a bit in the spotlight again, for a while it felt like with the exception of some meta defining ones (galli, div, arbalest and a few with intrinsic anti champ) exotics felt kinda pointless, theyd just take the slot away, now it feels like a lot of exotics are worth using cause they feel good, which is nice cause exotics are just unique and fun to play with.
but on the other hand legendaries shouldnt perform so badly that its not an option anymore
at least with synergies you could see how the weapon is just a means to an end, but man, kinetics really struggle because of that, especially since because they deal slightly more raw damage, everyone would rather wanna use them for a special
This, holy shit, I agree, I just can’t believe that I am forced to use Mal or Ace with lucky pants in Master and GM, while I want to use Thunderlord, Arbalest, Toaster or Two Tailed. It’s so stupid how they I can’t use legendary primary and get judged immediately, leading to people leaving party or kicking me out in GM.
I've only ever used a legendary primary if I absolutley needed a exotic sepcial or heavy for champs/dps strats which even still is very infrequent. And literally all of my primaries have Minor spec on because otherwise nothing is going to die without heavy use of abilities.
I feel like giving non-exotic primaries a 20% buff against minors would help close the gap, while still making exotics more worth it in higher end content. And maybe they could use a 5% buff against majors because if I'm out of special for that I'm basically screwed. I get that it would be a little more nuanced for each weapon type, SMGs don't need it, but they really need to close that gap.
Datto, for the love of all things holy, please do a video on double special and it’s absolute dominance in the meta rn. Please I am on my knees
The “and for hunter” bit at like 3:20 was good hahahaa
Something to note for quicksilver is that if you perfectly time the reload on the gl you can shoot 3 gl shots in a row really quickly and skip the reload. You need to hit all of the reload timings in a row or wait a second (for some reason) before you do the next perfect reload. This is definitely a reload bug but it makes the gun feel even more smooth imo.
This is literally in the video
best way on controller is to press trigger and reload at the exact same time, always works so satisfying
@@shakepreman What he was talking about was manual reloading which works for all weapons and should be used for all dps phases. What you need to do is Instead of mashing the reload is hit it once right as you fire the gl and do that for all 3 shots. The last shot will animation skip the reload and take you back to the main gun.
"And for hunters......" Was so fucking good I did not expect that from Datto.
I usually use Wish-Ender in GM's when Barrier's are present, but I decided to switch things up for a few GM's and I ended up trying Randy's Throwing Knife with Kinetic Tremors and it's not bad at all. It's actually quite useful and fairly potent at what it does; it's perfectly fine for ad clearing from a safe distance along with dealing pretty good champion damage because of Kinetic Tremors. Double special weapons is still probably quicker in the grand scheme of things, but there are some legendary primaries that are totally viable, those legendary primaries just HAVE to have one of those sub-class specific perks like Voltshot or something, or kinetic tremors. Also, almost all of my GM runs are 2-man runs, just myself and my buddy.
Pretty much gotta build the primaries for add clear but there are some exceptions that can be built for single target dps or to help ability regen. Ideally, you want your legendary primary weapon to have something like voltshot, incandescent, dragonfly, firefly, etc. Handcannons and Scout Rifles are also good if they can get explosive payload as well as my crafted Nation of Beasts with Dragonfly/Explosive Payload is excellent.
My issue with the video is that it primarily focuses with Quicksilverstorm, while forgetting to mention other equally broken primary weapons such as Osteo. Additionally, the fact that they possess a **40% damage bonus against minor** further widens the gap. However, it is worth noting that 70% of exotic primaries are actually inferior to their legendary weapons. While exotic primaries tend to dominate in endgame PvE content, this is true only for a select few, not all of them.
Furthermore, the discussion on double special weapons wasnt enough. Is that you shouldnt be using a primary on all content, the only exception being master difficulty activities, and even then with a skill team you can use double special. It's peculiar how in Grandmasters, not using an exotic primary puts you at a disadvantage, but this only applies to a limited number of them. Other exotic primaries, like Devil's Ruin, remain significantly underpowered.
Datto's relationship with Quicksilver Storm is on the same level as his love for Go Figure before sunsetting
a big problem that I uncovered particularly with bosses is that they balance boss health and damage expecting every fireteam to have Div and Well
so basically you not on the intended boss health unless your using div and well
Ur still doing more damage having a 6th doing damage and tether it’s not that big of a deal tbh unless it’s rulk
I got my hands on quicksilver only this season, dont have strand version yet, before i was a firm outbreak believer, but storm is really getting to me, and it is antibarier this season and its grenades explode on impact, i hope it stays that way
I agree I think quicksilver is great but outbreak is better for add clear (in my opinion)
@@shockwave3838 it is still one of my favourite guns, nanites have bo range dropoff, it can scare championes, and deceptively stable on console, in terms of add clear idk how it holds up against a grenade launcher, but gotta play with a new toy before it gets a nerf
@vegancardigan fully agree and quicksilver is really fun to use
Double special, each with lead from gold means you can use your machine gun for everything.
Could you please discuss the chokehold that double special has on the meta at the minute?
Whilst a select few exotic primaries (mostly anti champ ones) are useable in endgame activities, primaries in general, including most exotics, feel incredibly overshadowed by the ease of use of double special
Where everything datto talks about really becomes a problem is how it fails newer players. If you have exotics to make an ability spam build or access to cracked exotic primaries like quicksilver and wish ender it really doesn’t feel like there’s anything wrong but watch new light players try to do any type of endgame content with limitations in their load outs and the 40% damage differential starts to look pretty bad
Malfeasance feels amazing since its catalyst, and the upcoming buff means it's going to perform outstandingly agaisnt anything, it's even decent backup dps if out of heavy and special
True but if you run out of heavy and special ammo then your team mates aren't pulling their weight in the dps department.
I think you forgot one crucial thing about quicksilver storm. When you shoot a grenade and then hold r to swap the firing mode it will reload, However, if you expend all the grenades you have to reload.
"And hunter........" Shit had me Rollin.
Right now, primary weapons (especially legendaries) are basically just champion stunners if i have them equipped. Farming the GM last night, Forbearance and an LMG were 95% of my kills.
Couldn’t have said it better myself. Well done Datto. I need to send this video out to a few of my fireteam members…
The eay you feel about Quicksilver Storm is how I feel about Revision Zero. Such good damage for a primary wraoon with an alt fire mode that surpasses some heavies.
What rolls do you have your revision zero ?
I wish I would have gone for the upgrades that season. I never bothered to do them. Now I have to wait until it comes back into the exotic mission rotator.
@@marineboostnot op but I use vorpal FTTC for that extra 2 sniper shots
Can I interest you in using Symmetry,plays very similar to revision Zero and you only need to land your shots for the extra dmg,alt fire homes in enemies too
I am working on finishing the catalyst for Quicksilver Storm. I LOVE that exotic already since it came out. I can't wait to get the catalyst done.
quicksilver hunter: more grapple points with the funny woven mail helmet
I have to correct you on one thing. You said if you own Lightfall you own Quicksilver, but you have to have paid the full $100 for the Lightfall bundle with the season passes. If you only bought the base version of Lightfall for $50 and did not go for the season pass bundle then you do not have Quicksilver.
You can say I tested this because I got the base version of Lightfall and then later upgraded to the bundle and did not get Quicksilver until I did that.
That said I do like running Quicksilver when I am running a strand build, and I run other weapons when I am running other subclasses based on those subclasses.
I still don't understand how we're almost back to Shadowkeep levels of damage yet HC's still can't one shot a red bar? It has to just be the power scaling making enemies higher level than us.
When you pull it from collections, it doesn’t have catalyst. So you can have a quicksilver to synergize with strand, and one to use off strand
The hunter bit for tangles got me.
I would say this is a massive problem for me recently. But I would say generally Bungie buffed exotic primaries to the levels of your subclass abilities so you’d want to use them. This is an issue because i don’t know the last time i spent time actually shooting something. Our subclasses and exotic and exotic effects are so powerful now there really isn’t a reason to use a legendary primary at all
3:21 - Hunters really are one of the classes of all time.
I really like QSS with Broodweaver. Makes using the wanderer piss easy. I just wish legendaries were buffed so the gap to exotic primaries wasn't as big (like a 15-20% difference) because I really like playing a hybrid threadling/suspend build, which greatly benefits from the Hatchling perk.
hearing "the days of outlaw rampage are over" is no news but it hurts...
Leaving Quicksilver kinetic gives it better synergy with Stasis, so it's really like having two great primaries (that are also secondaries) in one!
I was looking forward to the hand cannon buff, now I’m worried it’s not enough.
Conditional Finality + Trace Rifle have rarely left my kinetic + energy slots, respectively, this season. Such a potent combo.
Datto casually slaying at 4:25
Yeah you're not wrong. I only really use legendary primaries that benefit from subclass builds. My Rufus' has a lot of Strand subclass buffing shots, my Voltshot weapons and Forbearance get helped by Ionic Traces and Blinding, and Headstone weapon needs fragments to buff your crystals, any Void or Osmosis weapon gets carried by becoming Volatile, and of course (especially as a Titan) my Incandescent weapons are carried by fragments and Sunspots. The only one that feels good with no added subclass benefit is Kinetic Tremors solely because it compliments how much health enemies have in GM's.
Maybe damage perks could use a buff? Maybe legendaries' base damage? I dunno but I would like to use these guns without requiring top tier perk combos that mostly come from raids or dungeons (Demo + Hatchling, Explosive Payload + Incandescent, Demo + Voltshot).
Would be nice if even poorly or just decently rolled legendaries felt at least decent in high end content and your god rolls feel mildly overpowered, whilst exotic primaries do feel overpowered.
Probably just worth bringing back pre-shafowkeep crit multipliers, but only on legendaries.
They could make the point of implementing legendary 'special reloads' that swap legendaries to a higher caliber ammo pool.
I love a good rpm fusion rifle too.... I discovered zealot's reward the other day... Love it!
Clyde pointed this out a couple seasons ago that the only thing you needed was arby, x smg, and cataclysmic and you're set. While the endgame dmg meta has shifted slightly it's not really anything new. I'm not sure what exactly is to blame for it, but the dmg meta has been stale for a long time. Ntm that our power has grown in competition with enemy potency (at least mostly) that while you can make it through the game with legendary gear, it doesn't make it fun.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts, I have the same feeling about crafted legendary weapons.
Fatebringer being bad currently is truly the greatest tragedy XD Hoping for that Handcannon rework they teased to be implemented.
Just a note about the reloading with grenades you should also manually press reload on your finally grenade because you can animation skip the normal reload and get back to shooting faster for more grenade uptime
3:23 “and for hunter…” 😂
Watching Datto literally walk a GrandMaster with strand is satisfying.
Finally, my opinion on primary weapons is here!
I tested both the strand and kinetic quicksilver storm in the light blade and fallen saber gms and the GL shot did the exact same damage on both. So either its base form doesn't get the kinetic bonus or they both do.
Note: both were overcharged due to the anti-barrier auto mod.
I tend to use a lot of legendary primaries, but that's mainly because they have subclass verbs. I use bows a lot because I really enjoy them and haven't really been having too many problems. Legendary primaries can do pretty decently if you use surges, but it's kind of a big ask when Exotic primaries can do the same thing (if not better) at base. I mostly tend to use Legendary primaries because I have Conditional Finality or Witherhoard equipped at all times. I'll then slot in whatever legendary primarily fits my build
side note the manual reloads of quicksilver in grenade mode can also be done to quickly reload the regular magazine too
the reload no matter which mode you're in simply fills the magazine. through this you can use the grenade mode's reload animation to reload the regular mode's magazine for a super fast reload.
is nice, is fun
legendary weapons just feel... there. Placeholders. Slot fillers. If I'm not using an exotic primary I'm either running double special and a machine gun or an ability build that has a primary weapon just to give the special weapon more ammo
I have personally gotten so good at doing the manual grenade reload thing that I can skip the normal reload for when I run out of grenades. Essentially, if you mash R fast and at the right time, you can make the gun do a "grenade reload" after you run out of grenades in order to get to primary fire faster.
Re: Age-Old Bond
To me, High-Impact (360rpm) Auto Rifles have always felt like dogwater. Age-Old Bond didn't see use even way back in Forsaken not just because it had a shit perk pool, but it *also* just belonged to an archetype that still hasn't felt good for four years. (I started with Forsaken, idk what they were like at launch or during CoO/Warmind). Precision ARs (450rpm) have the same problem to a lesser degree, with Breakneck temporarily bucking the trend because it was Breakneck and it literally broke through the limits of its archetype. Scouts felt better even when they weren't that good.
I’d love to see Datto’s take on Malfeasance + lucky pants
I'm personally in a perpetual limbo of using crafted weapons in casual content at least until I get them to about level 16 and do a reshape with all perks unlocked. A select few gets more playtime and the honor of having enhanced perks depending on how good they are as weapons and my final perk selection but most sit in the vault at lvl 16 when they get crafted into their final shape (heh).
Of course I use more meta picks and exotics for raids or pvp when I need to but this tends keeps my slots occupied and varied by rotating around... "sub-par" legendary weapons throughout the season. I usually run out of weapons to level basically around the time the season changes to introduce new ones. So while it may not feel as good to use a newly crafted weapon, this loop + my insatiable need to collect does a good job of adding variety to my weapon choices especially when I used to essentially be a '1 loadout for all content' guy before weapon levelling was introduced.
No I will not mindlessly farm Shiro Chi (unless I really want to) because that's not playing a game, that's doing a chore. Same with fishing.
My struggle is finding motivation to play
I love hand cannons, definitely looking forward to the future buffs. I’m usually not big on 180s but Trust just feels different, although mostly I think I use it because it looks and sounds cool. I would use Sunshot but the way it applies scorch just doesn’t work very well and I can rarely take advantage of it. If it was solar I’d never take hawkmoon out of my kinetic slot, I don’t even care that it doesn’t scorch
It's weird since we just got primary weapon buffs back in April that closed the gap on a lot of weapon types so they should actually feel better to use compared to a year or two ago, but I think part of the problem is those same buffs effected their exotic counterparts too which then makes the exotics even better in comparison, so I think what's needed next is a specific legendary targeted buff that increases primary damage vs red bars by +15% but then reduce the exotic red bar buff to +25% so they stay roughly where they're already at. (1.15 x 1.25 = 1.4375 so exotics would still be slightly better but not by as wide of a margin.)
I'm weird and still like to use Legendary primaries especially if I'm using an exotic special or heavy, but I will say that perk choice is what will make or break their effectiveness as it is required that you either have some kind of neutral damage booster like Frenzy or Explosive Payload to make up the difference (And by neutral I mean any perk that will benefit you without a kill needed.) or a very strong kill perk like Voltshot that makes it easy to chain from one kill to another where the effect is strong enough that it's worth working for that first kill so you can cascade from there. (Which is why weapons like Posterity are my favorite since it lets you have both these things at the same time.)
Honestly from what Ive been seeing Guardians can only lose fights in cutscenes. The power creep from the last 2 years I’ve stopped playing has been insane to watch, and I don’t think that’s a problem.
It's honestly wild how much easier the game has gotten ever since I swapped to permanent forebearance + izzies/agers/deliverance/maybe wish ender. Even on low level stuff i just swap to eagers instead of swapping to a primary
“But there is one gun, that I will use, instead of a heavy machine gun, and that is…” Queenbreaker’s Bow. So good this season, especially on a Getaway Artist Warlock.
The last few years, the game has only gotten faster and faster for both PvE and PvP, leaving a lot of the old slow and steady playstyle in the dust. I remember when Hallowed Layer's boss room was a nightmare due to the sheer quantity of ads that would spawn, this is no longer a problem since we shifted away from primaries being our main solution to dealing with enemies.
I've since found the best way to use primaries and even some special/heavy weapons today is to use them for their utility to augment the bulk of your other playstyles/skills. Champ stunning when your subclass might not be enough on it's own, using perks like Demo, Wellspring, and Pugilist (or even Classy Contender/Bray Inheritance) to help ensure better uptime on your abilities, subclass perks like voltshot, incandescent, and repulsor brace for synergy in your builds, or some other misc benefit like disorienting grenades, OTP, Chill Clip, Shoot to Loot, even Headstone. I still find some damaging perks worth the slot due to ease of activation especially when in combination with perks listed above or when paired with another damaging perk like dragonfly or explosive payload in the 3rd column, these perks include frenzy, golden tricorn (since it also works well with our ability spam builds), and the recent paracausal affinity and kinetic tremors.
I can't even remember the last time I used a legendary primary that wasn't an smg or an auto
The only legendary primary I even consider using anymore is the ikelos smg, mainly because voltshot is basically an exotic perk. Otherwise I just run double special, because there is literally no reason to run a primary because I can just have infinite heavy and special
patience is a virtue
D2 endgamer: IDK doesn't sound very optimal
can someone please help me understand the hype behind kinetic tremors?
Kinda two things, it's just passive damage that goes on while you mow someone down. Its also aoe and combos great with shoot to loot. Making it really easy to pick up special, heavy, and orbs without having to go out to get them and risk getting killed.
It really feels like a massive cope from people who want legendary primaries to be good again - which I sympathize with.
Kinetic tremors lets you sit back at a safe distance and deal aoe damage with a single target legendary primary.
Pretty huge bump to legendary primary damage, especially against champs. Pair with shoot to loot and the large explosions (kinetic tremors proc 3 explosions per activation) picks up ammo from a very generous range.
I wouldn't use kinetic tremors in anything below master content though as things die too quickly. It mainly shines in GMs
@@evanbushong5459Oh I didn't see you comment. I pretty much said what you just said 😅
The "And for hunter -silence" fucking hurts as a hunter main lmao.
I used osteo striga for 95% of the time before season of the deep
Now with quicksilver storm
I use quicksilver storm as much as I used to use osteo
Now I mainly use quicksilver and osteo in a majority of activities because of how good they both are for basically free
Ostea/forbearance/Commemoration has been glued to me the last season
I had absolutely no idea about the manual reload.
Abilities are so OP that I feel running two specials doesn't feel punishing at all tbh, I just run glaive + GL and whatever exotic heavy i want and because I always have abilities up it feels so good to do dmg with everything.