The Mistake that 🅺🅸🅻🅻🅴🅳 a Franchise
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- čas přidán 25. 01. 2024
- Thanks to HelloFresh for sponsoring today's video. Go to strms.net/hellofresh_lowart, use my code POGLOWARTFREE, and receive one free breakfast item per box while subscription is active.
It's finally time to discuss season 2 of Heroes. Wow, this took a while to get to. I'm currently not planning to discuss the show past this point, since I've got some other topics I want to get to right now, but I hope you enjoy this look at the downfall of its second season.
My first video on Heroes:
• The Classic Superhero ...
SOURCES:
- interview containing excerpt from Tim Kring used toward start of video: • The Importance of Auth...
- article where the show being an anthology is mentioned: www.cbr.com/tim-kring-talks-h...
- Tim Kring's open apology about the second season's quality: ew.com/article/2007/11/07/her...
- another informative Tim Kring interview: • 099 - Tim Kring Interview
- interview where Tim Kring states that death on Heroes is fluid: www.ign.com/articles/2007/12/...
- details from the behind-the-scenes commentaries are sometimes referenced, which I can't link here since they're on the DVDs. However, I mention details from Season 2 Episode 1's commentary the most, if you want to check that one out.
BACKGROUND MUSIC:
- Remember to Remember from Tunic
- Wehrmut by Godmode
- This is the Wrong Way from Tunic
- Ocean Glaze from Tunic
- The Knight from Tunic
- The Captain from Tunic
- My Favorite Customer from Tunic
- This Time is Different from Tunic
- Secret Legend from Tunic
- The Librarian from Tunic
- The Round Table from Tunic
- Ruin Weeker from Tunic
It might seem kind of random, but I decided to use the Tunic OST because (1) it's amazing and (2) I actually thought it had a somewhat similar vibe to Heroes' OST, but I was getting a bunch of copyright issues with Heroes' music. - Zábava
Hey there, folks! So I made my video on the first season of Heroes a while back. There, I had said I would cover the second season - so here it is, my video on the second season! Currently, I don't really plan to discuss the rest of the show, but I hope you enjoy this one.
Also thanks to HelloFresh for sponsoring today's video. Go to strms.net/hellofresh_lowart, use my code POGLOWARTFREE, and receive one free breakfast item per box while subscription is active.
Anyway, thanks for watching! Have a good one!
thank you for making, dude.
It just gets worse & worse so I totally get it!
😂 awesome video. So as it turns out there's a Heroes spin off show in the works. Maybe this time they'll get it right 👍
The amount of times they nurfed Hiro because he was overpowered and made him a child or lose his memories is wild
True
It is why despite having a character that can freely travel time, I’ve created the single greatest shackle in the same move. His future self saved his life and left him a digital pocket watch and a journal. Inside the journal is the instructions on how to reset the watch and the following call to action:
“I promise you that if you do everything in this journal exactly when it says, the best possible ending for everyone will come to pass. I know because I have seen it myself. You always have a choice, but if you do not do this, I won’t be there to save you. The paradox will throw time into uncertainty and you will die as well. But I know you can’t say no to saving everyone.”
@@blackchibisan8116There is a good reason most writers stay far away from time bullshittery.
@@Mediados
Yeah… except Legacy of Kain… they abuse the shit out of time travel in the most fascinating way possible because everyone who can time travel is too caught up in their own ego to actually fix the problem.
@@Mediados True. But Araki Hirohiko did it better. In JoJo universe there is bunch of people have time related ability. But still no problem.
They had a PERFECT long-term set-up after season 1, with Peter needing to recruit, organize and earn the trust of other heroes faster than Sylar could track down and kill them. And they threw it all away.
I was gonna say this exact thing!!
Yeah, season 1 literally wrote the remainder of the series, but they threw it all out in favor of a hamfisted storyline and characters who were uninteresting.
The writers should have bought in a third character that had both peter, his father and sylar's abilities; who had a better handle and understanding on his powers but was traveling the country copying others abilities that were good and stealing/stripping powers from those who were bad that were misusing them to harm others, making him an orphan x/ the equalizer/ the beekeeper/the man with no name/ the mentalist type of character that would help Peter petrelli become a fellow badass like him and together face off with the likes of sylar and others like them, If they had taken the time to think creatively like that i'm pretty sure the series would have lasted a lot longer that It did! 💯🔥😁😉👍
1. They overpowered Sylar, portrayed him as an irredeemable psychopath, and then tried to redeem him.
2. They kept making Hiro powerless and infantile to depower him.
3. They had Peter and Claire meet in a romantic boy-meets-girl scenario only to later reveal they were related.
4. They killed off Nikki and then created the character of Tracy so that Ali Larter could remain on the show.
5. They made normal humans like Mohinder and Ando superhuman for no good reason.
6. They kept killing off Nathan and bringing him back like a cartoon character.
7. They created plotlines that went nowhere and were discarded after only a few episodes.
8. They introduced characters that served no purpose and were quickly discarded.
9. They had no continuity, direction, or story logic.
10. They knew nothing about the medium or genre they were working in.
For me it was 2 things:
1) The loss of the family unit. Matt no longer had a family. Nathan no longer had a family. The sort of mundane plots were obviously not interesting to the writers anymore. But that was kind of what made the show unique and interesting.
2) Loss of Bryan Fuller, who went to work on Pushing Daisies. A LOT of what people liked about the show came from him. The dark wit, the heartfelt emotional beats.
And I think after Fuller came back the show got kinda good again. The episode he wrote when he came back was good at least. (Cold Snap? I think it's called)
One other problem I think the show had was that it was SO hesitant to kill any character they thought was popular, or that they needed. But so willing to kill characters they didn't care about. (Like Bob, who I thought really carried a lot of the show in the second year)
So true, and a lot of the characters they didn’t care about I actually liked, but they either killed them off or wrote them off.
I'd argue that Matt did have a family unit in season two, as he and Mohinder were basically acting as Molly's two dads. However, that didn't really last either. He goes back to his original family unit in the last season, though
@@emmamaki5862 He had a found family, but I think the main thing is these sort of incidental "normies" kinda grounded the storytelling, was more what I was getting at. (Where Mohinder and Molly are 100% part of the "other" world.)
Cold snap is literally the only episode title I remember, and the scene with the, well, cold snap
We did eventually see that virus epidemic storyline in a different superhero series few years later. And it was pretty inFamous. 2.
I can do you one better. A lot of heroes storyline were ripped from the 4400
X-men. All it was storylines from the X-men. Legacy virus, Days of the Future Past, Phoenix saga, last season geared almost to '90s era of X-men comics.
I was expecting some kind of 'X-cutioner song" but with Heroes, but they didn't. 😂
If they put the show on hiatus during the strike, perhaps the thing would've had a better season. Hell, it could've been picked up for more seasons.
I don't remember other serial shows off-hand during the strike, as most shows on air were mostly self-contained episodes.
I know Breaking Bad had to cut off the first season early. But it was for the best, because what they cooked up afterwards helped lay the foundation for right now.
@@weirdguy1495 I think Breaking Bad would have been good either way. But they weren't really impacted by the strike like that. Mainly it saved Jesse's life because the plan was to kill him off initially. But I'm not positive that version of the show would have been bad.
Back in the day i thought the main problem was the constant reseting of the themes or personality of the main characters.
Nathan and Peter kept arguing each other only to change their minds at the end of the season to face evil toghether.
Every season they hinted they would get all together and act as a group only to then walk away and go each other their own way.
There´s a season Matt (the telepath police officer) has a relationship with a speedster girl, who then dies but it´s ok, he finds out his ex wife had a child so he goes back to her.
It´s like they needed to keep the characters at level 1.
Peter was one of the most powerful characters yet he kept screwing up until he looses his powers and then he starts acting smarter.
Even when he gets his powers back and he can only copy one power at a time, he uses very efectivebly and then he starts a relationship with the deaf woman and that´s it, the story is about them, he doesn´t do much anymore.
It never occurred to me at the time how similar Heroes was to Marvel's New Universe line of comics back in the '80s. An astronomical event happens and people all over the world develop super powers, even one becoming a serial killer. Lots of really dark storytelling (Pittsburgh gets vaporized, the fallout from it starts mutating even more people, international conflicts build up until it ends in a nuclear war that's averted at the last minute).
I always thought Heroes was only made to last for 13 episodes. The first 13 moved along at a good pace, but since it was such a success so early the network wanted it to go a full season, and the next 13 episodes were fairly plodding and dull, as if they hadn't prepared to get a full season order. It never managed to get back to the same quality of that first half-season. So much potential screwed up by what felt like constant network interference.
I still mourn this show :(
The way Heroes went belly up was astonishing to a very casual fan like me.
One day it was everywhere and the next, it..... wasn't.
But how did they learn from all these mistakes and then completely drop the ball with Heroes Reborn?
The truth is they didn't learn from the mistakes. Heroes continued for two more very disappointing seasons. I loved season 1, and I was still interested when the strike happened in season 2... but by the time they finally got to Heroes Reborn (many years later), the last 2 seasons of the original run made it so I had no desire to check in on a sequel series.
And I am fairly sure a large portion of the original fan base felt the same.... if they even made to the end of season 4. It was a rough watch at the end.
I remember Heroes Reborn just being...boring. it didn't share the same flaws as the original show, but the new characters just weren't that interesting.
Heroes Reborn made a lot of brand new mistakes unfortunately lol
Basically they became directionless, big bad villians were beaten way too soon and not in a satisfying way, it felt like a never ending drama with no goal or purpose.
What does it say about me that I clicked on the video to find out what show this was, and 2 seconds in I recognized the footage?
All it says about you is that you've probably watched Heroes before.
The WB/DC really dropped the ball when Hayden was younger, she would’ve been an amazing Supergirl
TLDR: The problem was giving Bryan Fuller his own show. Coincidentally, go watch Pushing Daisies.
The facts were these..... I MISS IT
Pushing Daisies? Never heard of it, what's it about?
@@thepiiemaker It's about a guy who can reanimate the dead by touching them, but they go back to being dead and stay dead if he touches them again. Then he finds his childhood friend at a funeral home.
@@AnEvilBastard I'm sorry I did this to you... look at my pfp and name 🤣
@@thepiiemaker That's on me.
Main problem: They effectively wanted a soap opera with super powers as their gimmick.
that's not a problem, though, soap opera with superpowers describes pretty much the entirety of the classic runs of spider-man and we can see where that went now. the problem is that the soap opera part was written badly, so the superpowers gimmick couldn't salvage it
Knuckles and Heroes within a month, Lowart fans eating good.
I think you are right on this one. I remember watching the third season with my parents and that was about the time we'd all had enough. I didn't realise there was an alternate ending. I think that one would have been way better. Also, I kind feel that they messed up Sylar. Ali Larter showing up so many times as different variants of the same character was weird too.
I like Tim Kring creations a lot. Compared to many things, there is quite a degree of writing ability there. I just believe on this particular series, they were always working on the seat of their pants with the story, rather than having a grand plan, and that rather did for the show. Making stuff up on the fly is dangerous to the flow of a story.
Another series of his where he was executive producer, called Touch, is amazing. I strongly recommend it, It's only 2 seasons but it wraps up in a very satisfying fashion. Albeit, there is a tragedy that happens in there that knocked me for six towards the end. You'll know what I'm talking about if you watched the series. I feel this series could have gone longer but cancelled early so they tied it off nicely.
He was also an Executive Producer for Beyond. Another series I really enjoyed, that one too, finished rather prematurely. It could have gone longer but petered out a bit too soon. I was disappointed by the cliffhanger that was left on.
Treadstone was a bomb unfortunately. I liked the whole Jason Bourne series, I even liked the Jeremy Renner Bourne Legacy film but Treadstone was a bust. Tim Kring was once again an Executive Producer on this.
I think Heroes was his magnum opus, he tried to relight with Heroes Reborn but it just didn't catch fire. I think the general audience weren't in for another collapse. It was a lightning in a bottle moment that he wasn't able to capture again, and fumbled while he had it. He might have been better to spin off some the memorable characters into their own series, rather than kill them off with Sylar.
YES! When I got the DVDs back in the day and watched the BTS footage and commentary on the nixed ending (this was after the show was already over), I was so sad! Yeah season 2 hadn't been great, but a solid second half could have pulled a lot of the weaker elements together in a way that made at least some of them better in hindsight, getting payoff for things instead of just brushing them aside. Genuinely sad for what could have been, because at the least it couldn't possibly have been worse than season 3 and spider Mohinder...
I’d forgotten about spider Mohinder, thanks for reminding me 🫤
Heroes first season was just perfect. Even they changed plan for season 2 it was good too. But saddest thing is second half of the season cancelled and they just jump to season 3.
The description of season 2 virus issue made me immediately think "Wait...the show just becomes the 4400....which was, quite frankly, X-men the tv show"
Yeah it became clear after season one how much they began just poorly copying storylines from other related media
I dont think hero changed ever history, but it always happened. Even the princess is telling him he is the kensei of legends.
Also i dont think hero was a weak point, a bit silly, but the actor can make it fun. And they did have him try to change fate of a love interest for example. And he was nerfed too at the end, he was fine.
But yeah the virus idea could have been very interesting , and even if hiro got back to change things, seeing things play out even then could have been interesting, introducing characters and how they, whatever bsremember i guess an alternate tragic timeline?! Why?
Ngl the Heros and Archie sonic videos have been amazing
"Save the cheerleader, save the world." They built that up so hard but when the time came it was a total letdown, and that's the moment when I started checking out of the show pretty hard.
Sylar broke the game. Never make unkillable super villains'. All of the stuff after that, regardless if there were other mistakes, makes for a terrible story. Save the cheerleader became 'shoot, now we need something new'.
Your Analysis is good...
Heroes wasn't the hero we needed.
The ever evolving/devolving powers, the impermanence of death, and how many times can the Government discover that the Heroes exist and then forget them so they can discover them again... not to mention the dropped story lines, etc. all collect to make this one of the most 'I wish it were as great as it obviously could have been' experiences of my life... at least for me. (And that is said being someone who watched from the first scene of the first episode to the last painful scene of Reborn, having run a successful Heroes RPG, etc.!)
I enjoyed the first season well enough, but some things never made any sense. Like how Hiro had any idea he actually had powers when they hadn't manifested yet. He just believed really hard. Also, what was the significance of the eclipse? It seems to coincide with some of the characters getting their powers, but then it's revealed that other people have gotten powers before and it's been a known thing(by some groups and organizations) for decades, if not longer. It was fun enough to watch, but there were just too many plot holes and unexplained things and that bothered me. I wasn't sad to see it go.
The Hiro one makes sense imo. The eclipse I got nothing for.
Hiro was shown to be obsessed with powers. There are many people like this irl. With how many people have powers in the show its kinda just a numbers game.
Honestly, it is my humble opinion that just due to the medium, television, and further now to series streaming, was and is still not entirely equipped for the task of keeping the energy and overall story cohesiveness with a large ensemble cast that will keep people engaged long enough for a proper saga style narrative- as well as the aforementioned conflicting real world interests ie. writers' strikes, network brass decisions, actor issues, etc. This is why Game Of Thrones fizzled as well as Heroes in my opinion.
Juxtapose these with the literature that inspired them-some mention XMen for Heroes, but I tend to also think of (both involving GRR Martin, oddly) the SOIAF series for GOT, and the Wild Card anthology for Heroes. In particular, Wild Cards worked (and afaik still does) BECAUSE of its anthology nature combined with different authors adding to the lore. Print, as well as comics/graphic novels, tend to do a much better job in this area.
Speaking of "Heroes", does anyone remember "flashforward"? Whatever happened to that one?
Wasn't the second season when the writers strike happened as well?
Edit: Ah yes, this season was when the writers strike happened. Glad that was covered
I like how in season 2 when main dude was in Ireland, took his girlfriend to a horrible alternative future were a virus decimated earth, left her there and never spoke about her again.
They missed a chance to have her criminal family hunt him down for revenge.
Sorry for being off topic but thought I'd ask on the newest video, what's the music used in the first Archie Knuckles video when Locke is on his deathbed? With the piano.
There’s a Music list in the description in all of the Music that is used in these videos.
@@themissingbits6375 oh duh man, I'm blind, was looking for a list but it's in doc form
The song is called “Song of parting.”
Fantastic video, really interesting views and thoughts. Also a nice way for me to go back to the lesser parts of the series without having to watch it all 😂 I actually really want to hear what you have to say for 3 & 4
I have had this discussion with my friends years ago. I still feel they should have just introduced a multi-verse to explain the constant recons in Heroes. It mostly worked out for the show Fringe, and definitely worked for the CW show Flash.
The writer's strike is what killed the show.
If you havent seen the show Pantheon you should check it out. It's really great for much of it but the story in its development is crazy and I'd really want to hear your thoughts
That's what we say about Metroid: Other M
Yeah but Metroid is still around.
@@prof.laytonfan764 I guess the more accurate comment would be *said about Metroid: Other M
I still remember that season 2 was at the moment of the screen writers strike , many tv shows were butchered at that time and this one was no exception.
One of the more subtlely messed up aspects is that Peter's girlfriend gets left in that alternate timeline and the show (and Peter) just forgets about her. And when that timeline doesn't happen I guess she's wiped from existence. And the show just never acknowledges it.
Hey... this isn't Sonic!
Loved that first series, all the characters, the whole thing.
A lot of these were not aired because of sports shows showing on the channel that it came on and they lasted so much longer than they were supposed to, we would see the first 15 minutes of the show and then it would cut to the news.
The writers should have bought in a third character that had both peter, his father and sylar's abilities; who had a better handle and understanding on his powers but was traveling the country copying others abilities that were good and stealing/stripping powers from those who were bad that were misusing them to harm others, making him an orphan x/ the equalizer/ the beekeeper/the man with no name/ the mentalist type of character that would help Peter petrelli become a fellow badass like him and together face off with the likes of sylar and others like them, If they had taken the time to think creatively like that i'm pretty sure the series would have lasted a lot longer that It did! 💯🔥😁😉👍
You know, I was waiting for this or the Archie videos, and I got SUPER excited seeing this one in your videos list
BTW, the choice to use Tunic's soundtrack was perfect. Another well done video
I thoroughly enjoyed this vid. Heroes were such a huge part of my growing up. So much nostagia. S01 was just intoxicating..
Agreed!
I loved this show. I was obsessed with Noah...he was just so cool. So of course I was happy to see him come back to life.
Its honestly , if clair had brought him back after exoperimenting herself, i think it would have been, more satisfying? Its silly the company wants noah alive?!
Imo the most blatant thing they did that annoyed me even as a kid was how they kept resetting characters like Hiro and Peter. Season one is really the only one i remember.
The big problem with Heroes is that it never changes, it never evolves. It keeps promising some great cataclysm, again and again, but nothing ever happens. When the third season began with yet another warning of something gone wrong in the future I just noped out. It started good, but it never knew where to go with what it had. So it just got stuck in a loop.
Variety! Hooray! 🎉
They unfolded everything in the first season. Once the curtain was pulled back what was going to keep us interested in Season 2?
I remember the writers in a DVD commentary talking about how they "had to" hard nerf peter because his powers made it "too hard" to write problems that were impossible for him to solve.
Obviously they gave hiro the same treatment
Tunic music used! pog!
"the" mistake....then proceeds to elaborate on every mistake
I'm not one for reboots usually, but a true anthology series reboot of heroes would be so cool.
I always thought the season 2 stuff was going to come together if it wasn't canceled. But maybe not.
let's goooo!!!
I am so darn out of the loop with anything related to superheroes that I don't even know what this show is; I'm watching this video purely because it's a Lowart video, to be honest... x)
Excellent video, you got my subscription 😊
That would have been a much better ending to season two
Man is each season a reboot Yes or no
They ripped off X-Men so much but did it the worst ways
Im really glad i never got on the bandwagon regarding this show.
I always wondered what happened to Heroes. One day it was absolutely HUGE, and the next day just... vanished.
15:54 Spider-Man: Everybody gets one!
Season 2s biggest problem was that they wanted to redo season 1s mysteries by omitting the events of the 4 month time period between season 1 and 2. If they started with the flashback episode, it would have solved a lot of the pacing issues and give the new characters a much better introduction.
1:49
Please dont forget that there was a writers strike back during the second season of Heroes and they lost half of their season and hadbto play catch-up in the third season. And then they biffed it in the fourth.
There was a huge writers strike around that time and hero's was one of the victims. So a totally different set of minds had to grasp what the original long term goals were. shame as I enjoyed the first season so much
Heroes, is a show I belived to be full of potential that never reached it.
You should of gave this video a different title and thumbnail.... I been WAITING for this... Love you work, almost missed it
I'm happy you found it and enjoyed it! I might switch the title/thumbnail later if this doesn't do well - I just decided to try marketing it a bit different, since the season 1 vid didn't do that well overall for me.
@@Lowart Even if the season 1 video didn’t do as well as you wanted on its release, I believe in time it will get the views you were hoping for.
CZcams’s algorithm sucks at its job.
@@Lowart Can white men stop bringing up shows of the past? Just because you are no longer a priority in media anymore doesn't mean these old shows are better. Time to move on. The reboot for heroes sucked so keep these things in the past, please.
I love your videos man
This was a great break down.
@16:00 why not just use the excuse that because it was her father the blood worked for him but would not work for people who don't share her genetic data?
....because he wasn't her father? She was adopted. Well, stolen.
@@jakepullman4914 I missed that, Heroes was before my time.
That something as huge as the season 2 finale could even change partway through filming is proof of a lack of artistic intention; it means that there wasn't any plan or artistic point to be made past season 2, it proves that they were just throwing stuff at a wall. This seems like one of those shows that is willing to throw out artistic integrity for the sake of keeping characters around and being able to just keep running on and on. Glad I never watched it, as rude as that may sound.
Wait……where’s S3 and 4 at??????
Its pretty clear they had a clear vision for S1 but as of S2, that vision was muddled and lost
Very nice breakdown :)
The main problem was the writer's strike. Hard to clean up that mess...
how much do you think the writer's strike hurt or helped this series? breaking bad's creator said it helped save his show.
how did i know it was heroes with just the thumbnail lol
I was just searching for heroes content. Not enough ppl cover it.
Tunic rocks. That is all. ❤
For me, it was always Jeph Loeb that sank it. I can't think of a single thing he's done where he has had a brilliant start and great ideas, but craps the bed with the endings. The man just can't end something on the right note and so you'll feel like you've enjoyed the ride, but hate getting to the destination. Kinda like sitting on a toilet, constipated, and you feel like something is going to come out, end your painful misery, but it is merely a fart and you still feel like something is stuck up there. Just sayin'.
This video feels like a part 2 of something, and if it is then that could really be better communicated in the title or video itself
It is a part 2. There's a video on season 1 and how great it is.
Part One is shown for me on the right side next to the video in the suggestions. If you went through the whole video without catching on it is for the second season of a show I mean that's kinda on you.
The biggest mistakes they made were not making Sylar a brain eating cannibal, making the "legendary Samurai" Hiro meets when he goes back in time some random white dude instead of having it be Hiro or his dad, and flubbing Hiro finding Isaac dead hy making it some weird "exploding man."
Wow I watched the show so long ago I was like holy shit what are they going to do about the virus now and then o wait nvm it’s gone
Honey wake up, new lowart vid
Heroes: Eclipsed 2024 new spinoff series
Is it weird that I thought the title was about Archie Sonic? XD
I loved this show but never finished it
From the thumbnail and the title of the video I didn't know this was part 2 of a series, I thought it was just about how Heroes went to shit as a whole.
Seems like it struggled with the same issues as CW and FX, how much you have to dedicate to VFX or action scenes with super powers. Nobody really figured this out and now we'll just have AI mainstream the process so you can choreograph any sequence on a tight budget. But it would have been interesting to see compositions where you cut around the need for supernatural movements. Perhaps by ignoring physics and time dilation at our usual scale. Think of how many conversations happen while characters are flying in the air in Attack on Titan. They were just swinging on cables that should have taken a few seconds at most but the show was willing to embrace its ridiculous propositions. These network shows seem completely unwilling to do anything but the most embarrassing stage play of actors standing in Victorian military formation, firmly on the ground. They're all Anchorman news team fight scenes.
As overpowered as Hiro Nakamura is, he doesn't need to be nerfed as his vulnerability to speedsters can negate any of his nerfings
Arthur Petrelli stealing Hiro's powers was the straw that broke camel's back in terms of Heroes' canon
Just started the video, but I really am hoping the writer's strike gets it's proper credit.
It didn't. Trust me :3
the writers strike deep-6ed the show. Scabs be scab-in.
Damn, I hella forgot about this show. I remember there was a bunch of buzz when it came out and then...poof; nothin'.
I had a hiro nakamura toy actually 🤓
the writers strike always gets brought up with this but i dont think it played a big role in heroes downfall
Great vid