How much distance has golf really gained?…
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- čas přidán 9. 01. 2024
- How much has 50 YEARS in GOLF BALL and DRIVER INNOVATION changed the game of golf?...
••• WHAT WILL THE DIFFERENCE IN PERFORMANCE BE?•••
In todays video we're comparing a 1974 Paul Gibson Driver and Dunlop 65 Golf Ball against a 2024 TaylorMade Stealth 2 Driver and Titleist Pro V1 Golf Ball.
How much has golf clubs improved?... How hard was golf in 1974?...
Let's find out! Let's get some numbers using the FORESIGHT GC QUAD at Worksop Indoor Golf Centre!
#golf #golfvlogs #retro
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Welcome to Gary Martin Golf, I am a PGA Professional based at Huddersfield Golf Club, West Yorkshire. I started my CZcams channel during lockdown whilst being Furloughed and unable to work.
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Now hit the old ball with the stealth and the new ball with the persimmon. Let’s see how much of that 70 yard difference is club vs ball.
He has already done the old ball with the stealth.
Yes, this would be interesting to see!
absolutely, today's balls are 'JUICED" in comparison.
I used to hit a wooden ping an easy 300. Wilson Staff distance balls.
I used to hit a wooden ping an easy 300. Wilson Staff distance balls.
I'm 64. Played competitive golf for over 40 years. Grew up hitting persimmon woods and balata balls. Today I'm 50 yards longer. This was no surprise at all. Al Geiberger shot his 59 using those old clubs and balls. Colonial County Club played 7250 yards. The course was soaking wet. He was hitting wooden 4 woods to par 4s. Best 59 in history by miles.
Good call on Geiberger. I'm 73, played a lot of golf back in the 80's & 90's. I could hit a MacGregor M85 driver, balata ball 300 yards from time to time. Those were the days my friend. Old sports injuries keep me from playing anymore.
Jack Nicklaus used a very, very similar driver in 1973, he averaged 276 yards, but often got over 300 that's why he is the GOAT.
That’s insane! I just don’t know how! Maybe he had a good fitter 😂🤣
And he used to smash the inserts out of his drivers, once broke the neck, and hit 341 yards in a long drive competition. The modern ball makes a huge difference though.
At the 1963 pga championship they held a long drive competition, jack won with a 341 yard blast that would've beat the 2017- 2019 similar contests at the pga championship. Jack would've bombed it with this new equipment and ball. At age 58 they tested his driver swing, it was 118 mph. Imagine a young jacks swing speed
@@ag358Jack estimated 130 mph.
Modern day golfer's have no idea.
Should of tested both clubs with the ProV1. The old ball was probably dead due to it being a rubber band wound ball and it was old. They had a tendency to swell with time.
As a 17-year-old 7 handicapper in 1972, I was hitting a decent drive 250 yds with my MacGregor persimmon driver, stiff shaft and with a Dunlop 65 or Wilson Prostaff ball.... As a senior golfer today (5 handicap), an equivalent good drive is going around 300 yds thanks to a PXG Gen 1 Driver with an X-flex graphite design shaft and using Wilson Staff Model balls for conisitency😉. So golf's easier today, even for the elderly 🤣.
This seems consistent with the data we just saw presented.
I am 67, still single figures but lower age 14 and using those club and balls, unwrapping a ball on the 1st was a delight and boy you didn’t want to lose it. Obviously you’ve heard the term “hit out of the screws” well if you didn’t, the ball went nowhere, I used a 2 wood off the tee, and also off the fairway. Our swings got so good, I literally could drive with my eyes shut, my dad had me do it to confound our opponents. The club having such a small sweet spot really focused the mind, you also needed lots of practice. Courses I play now are basically the same distance, yet in the 70’s even low single figure golfers found par 4’s over 400 yards a struggle to get up, no driver wedge play back then. We learned to chase balls, and work them both ways, you needed fantastic timing to drive over 200 yards, albeit we estimated as obviously no range finders. Short game was also different, only had PW and SW, mostly used an 8 iron pitch and run. Greens were slower and not as well manicured, my hickory shaft putter still see the light of day, but new balls are a bit heavy for long putts, inside 10ft its a killer. My pal and I were only discussing this last week, we play with low single figure golfers now, but their skill set is limited, or at least different. Modern equipment has made golfers lazy, also not good for teaching pro’s as you can get the ball round without regular lessons. My pal and I still have monthly lessons, practice 2 to 3 sessions a week, short game more than that, we always have, and back in the day you had to. Cold mornings with old clubs hurt the hands, unless you were proficient. The biggest improvement in golf is inclusivity, and CZcams is also helping that, so keep up the good work.
Back then you just about had to play for curvature of the ball flight, you were gonna get it whether you wanted it or not 😀
Gary, I grew up in that era and had no trouble with getting 275-280 yds regularly and could get 300 when I caught a good one. If I recall, we swept the club more rather than hitting up on it as we do today. I am 70 years old and started playing at age 12.
Those were the distance Dan Pohl, leading distance on PGA Tour, was hitting them in the 80's ....
Even though that was technically a new ball, it’s over 50 years old so I can help but wonder if it’s degraded quite a bit. The inner rubber winding has probably lost a lot of its elasticity so therefore a lot of its spring.
This is a very important point. That “wound” ball is dead after all these years. The compression of that ball is so low that a 5 year old could compress it. If they could find a Spaulding Top Flight from the 1970s, that would be a better test.
Just think of how brittle an old rubber band gets. Now the cover was ballata I think, and probably also has degraded with age. I played St. Andrews Old Course when I was in college. I found a Dunlop 65 in the rough in a gorse bush while looking for my ball. I still have that 65.
If i'm not mistaken, i THINK that Dunlop 65 was a 2-piece ball. At least the ones i've seen on line were 2-pc balls
@@Golfzilla5000 Newer ones are two piece, but vintage ones were wound cores. There is a short of a guy cutting one in two. They made a more modern urethane covered ball in the 2000s that was packaged like the vintage ones, individually wrapped.
@@Golfzilla5000
Great video and fun, too. Back in those days, the typical ball was a balata covered ball for low handicap players. Everyone tried to offset the spin and ball flight by hitting lowish draw shots and even strong draw shots. The shaft technology was steel, as you noted, but not much else, with around 42-42.5 length. If you played with a hard ball, you got more distance off the tee, but gave up a lot around the greens. Plus, the only wedges were those that came with the set, and a large or medium flange sandy.
The driving averages were under 260 for the tour. Bu the time the metal head/steel shafts were coming in, the average crept up to 265, with Nicklaus able to hit really long drives. Daly's length was both dependent on his huge turn and his metal wood, averaging just over 300. Those fairways were not tricked up by rolling them, so distance varied from place to place, including altitude and humidity.
Personally, I think that the ProV1 plus the great improvements in shafts plus the titanium face made the driver longer. In the current environment, we see fitness and flexibility training along with high levels of practice of not just the drivers but all phases of the game.
Mike Austin, who was the top winner in the 350 club (long drives) did all that with a wooden head (his head on his shoulders was also wooden!) and a steel shaft. I wonder what he would do with a modern 45.5 inch, Ventus Velocore Black, a Titleist head, a ProV1x or even the TP5 or even the Bridgestone e9 Long Drive ball.
I was in a long drive competition with a laminated wooden head Wilson something (ruined the head and red plastic insert, a new fiberglass shaft. I got one of my six just barely over 303 years (came in tenth) but that was around 1986.
But remember, I am from that generation who believed (in the US anyway) that REAL MEN do not play golf or tennis or do distance running. Golf was perceived as a sissy sport or a country club excuse to drink and play cards. Anyway, many things change. I like the new equipment of course, especially (Thank you Dean Snell and Acushnet) the ProV1. When you go good enough to use the Balata covered balls, you lost many of them by cuts, tears, even exploding rubber bands. You putted over spike marks, you did not have the astounding grass technology and mowing equipment, and no real coverage like today. I hate the high-tech mentality of damn near everything, as the tekkies are actually super fans in spirit. But, then again, DECADE golf and stroked gained has made it possible to have genuine course management without playing that course a dozen times. Bravo, teckkies!
It is still a difficult game, a 6 foot putt sucks since you don't make every one - even with Karsten's great innovation, his misspelled 'Ans(er).
Odd, no matter how many make the claim, there is still no uniform and successful way to instruct a beginner or a regular never-break-ninety golfer. That is sick. Like the public schools, you sit and supposedly learn and when done, are emptier and more confused than when you began your curriculum.
Repeating my thanks for taking on this test and comparison. No matter what you say,, you ego must have been startled that with the same clubhead speed, you were 90 yards less! Well, shows you a little truth about 'clubhead speed,' doesn't it!?
Makes you appreciate Player, Nicklaus and Palmer more now. I still practice with a Persimmon Driver each spring, makes me focus on center hits more.
It really does. Can’t believe how far they used to hit it 👀
I live on a Jack Nicklaus designed course, his first signature course built in 1988. The Nicklaus tees are 7008 yards he shot a 62 using persimmon clubs in 1988. Hole 9 had a Live Oak in the middle of the fairway, he said it would never come into play. He came back in 2018 and played with modern clubs and the tree was in play. We just redesigned the course with the Nicklaus Group. Check out Pawleys Plantation.
Hi Gary, love your contents,
I started to play golf in 1975 when I bought my first set, top flight with aluminum shafts, I had a driver 3 wood and 5 wood, 3,5,7,9 irons an putter, that was my bag. We played a lot of courses where most par 4 were in the high 200 yards and anything over 400 yards was definitely a par 5.
Keep up the good work from Canada 🇨🇦
You must of had some patience 😄 Would you take todays course length and clubs or 1975? Which was the hardest ?
I was 15 in 1975 and loved being out there learning the game, I did get my drives to around 220 most of the time, I’m 63 now and my swing is starting to slow down now to about the same as in the 70’s That’s why we have forward tees lol
Much more interesting content than watching James hitting perfect shots with the latest driver and then saying.. try that you will get good at golf 🤣🤣
A trip down memory lane for this 60 year old….my first woods were persimmons with brass screws in the face (hence the term “hitting it out the screws”) and using Penfold Commando or Dunlop 65 balls….eeee it were tough!
I started playing in 1989 and I had persimmon or wood laminate woods with steel shafts. That's all that existed or was affordable for normal people so I just went with them. I remember it took me the entire summer of 1991 pounding balls at the range to just be able to get the ball up in the air consistently but I eventually got pretty good with it. My first "modern" driver with a graphite shaft was a Titleist 975D that was 260cc's that I bought around 2001. It had a reputation as being hard to hit but I still wanted it because that's what Tiger was using. I remember being shocked at how huge it looked, how light it felt, and how easy it was to hit. My point is I think if you can hit a wooden driver consistently you can hit anything. Same thing if you can hit a blade 3 or 4 iron consistently.
Started playing in 1974 , had a half set of Ray Wilson irons and driver+ fairway wood. Forget about all your set up just address it and hit it what ever club your using . The irons made today's blades look like improvement irons. Loved them.
The ball was nearly bigger than the head, its not so easy when you’re used to a 460 head lol 😃
Love these sort of videos! I’m gonna dig out my old Zing 2 and Lynx Parallax irons from the 90’s out for rounds!
Wish I’d kept my old clubs. That’s definitely going to be a round of reminiscing 👌🏼
Had a Ping Zing 2 iron back then that I used to crush on narrow, must keep it in play tee shots. 240-250 yard lasers. Loved that ugly thing!
I hit my current driver about as far as I did my persimmon back in the day. 40+ years older...
I find current massive 460cc drivers off-putting. Can't feel the face worth a damn now that it's the size of a toaster. A persimmon literally driven off the screws was one of the most satisfying feelings. Can still remember the sound.
I was a caddie back in the mid 70's. The biggest hitter at the club was 260 yards off the tee. Jack Nickolas was one of the biggest hitters on the tour then and drove the ball 280-290. From what I remember the pros were 260-280 for the most part. The sad thing about the modern equipment is how it has kind of ruined the original experience of courses built before about 1987. What they really should do is restrict the flight of the balls. I think if you hit that old ball with your modern club the old ball is probably 20-30 yards shorter.
My four'pennorth:
1) I'd love to be able to get my hands on the on Grip-rite grips, especially the cord or half-cord version.
2) I learned in the late 70s as a lad, so...
i) the Dunplop 65 was a common ball but by no means the best ball. For that, at the time among the wound balls it was the Titleist Pro-Trajectory and if we're talking outright length then you needed to 100 compression (if your swing speed was up to it). Topflite was a 2-piece, went further and felt like hitting a stone, as was the Pinnacle that came out about then. The Titleist, and at that time the Prostaff, felt beautiful (the Titleist was the real beauty, though). I've truly no idea how a 70s Titleist would compare to their last Tour Balata's, but...
ii) I find that a late Tour Balata 100 is maybe a few yards shorter than a modern ball, which factoring in needing a bit more club for your next roughly equates to most 1 club difference. But...
iii) the Tour Balata 100 is still by a distance the best feeling and most workable ball ever. Better than Pro-Vi, TP5 and all the rest. That's just how it is, to me. I always have a couple in the bag, in case I fancy.
iv) I swap between a 1974 Tommy Armour PGA driver, of unknown loft (but strong, I'd say) and a late80's/early 90s Wilson Tour Ltd 10.5 deg, both steel shafts. The Tommy Armour is actually about 44", the Wilson spot on 43.5". I find that with a modern ball that I just do not find any distance disadvantage. I really wonder how much that Dunplop was losing you, compared to its contemporaries, or to late wound balata's, let alone modern balls. I found it interesting you got comparable head speed with the persimmon you had (also of unknown loft).
v) The smaller heads can be intimidating maybe, especially a strong persimmon like the Tommy Armour, but there again I actually look down at modern drivers and think "toooooo biiiig!". I just can't see myself striking through the ball with what looks to me like a Gladiator's pugil-stick. To me, the trick is to look at those old driver clubfaces, say to yourself "Actually, that's a pretty big clubface" and just talk yourself into confidence. There is a good deal of mass in the head, for sure (which should be balanced anyway), but what I think that does is put a lot behind the ball and really make it go wherever you, the golfer, direct the energy. Meaning, take lessons, practice, work on accuracy.
Fascinating stuff. Can I pick your brain? I've bought a modern "persimmon T classic" to practice with. Steel shaft and about 260cc head so bigger than a 3 wood and smaller than a mini driver. Can I ask you if you'd recommend high spin ball? Softer compression like a tour response or softer than pro V2? And Would you hit down on the ball? Would you sweep it? I asked my dad and his reply was "I just hit it" 😂. I'm 38 but played woods and blades as a kid so it's not overly strange to me. Would love to hear your thoughts.
@@stuboy13 Wow - those are some questions. I don't know that driver, so can't really comment on it, but it sounds a bit bigger than the old persimmons of yore that were around 190-200cc to best of my knowledge.
That will feed into overall mass, so without knowing the length of the shaft it's hard to figure out what that would do for the balance of the club, because it'll require more counterweight. This is one of the tricky things - you could have a longer shaft that would somewhat increase head speed, but lose that advantage to the increased mass. There again, lead tape on clubheads was a frequent tune-up to alter things like MoI (before it was ever written about).
Steel shafts do things quite differently from graphite, and again have a little more mass. They also torque less, I believe. Getting the right combination of length and stiffness (kick point as all steel shafts of the same make/model are the made same and stiffness comes down to where they are cut) is therefore key.
Bear in mind, the old timber heads (don't forget the laminates - there were some really nice ones) often had pretty strong lofts. So in the pro shop, you could be looking at several drivers seemingly the same, but had to really select the one that suited you. One might be weaker, the next stronger, slightly different lie etc.
Not sure any of that quite addresses your questions, but lays the ground for how almost infinitely variable timber clubs are.
Getting to your questions. The old balls spun more and the two pretty much worked together - especially figuring in some of those strong faces. The ball flew more, so without having really tried it lately I'd say a higher spin ball might suit timber better because that was what they were made to work with. The old balata/wound construction really got into the grooves and along with what loft there was took every bit of spin going and that's why they could get on the breeze very easily. Equally, they were incredibly workable and so stoppable - especially the better balls like a Titleist Pro-Trajectory (or later the Tour Balata) as mentioned above. Not forgetting there were some awful balls about too, of course.
So a ball with a bit of spin might be preferable from the point of view of obtaining flight, but not so much as to go floaty. It might be the difference between a ProV1 versus Pro V1X or TP5 versus TP5 X.
Don't forget, though, that the old balls worked the other way round. The cover was soft and that wound centre was hard (more especially the 100 comp, less so the 90 comp). Manufacturing tolerances were wider too, hence why the top pros were getting hand-selected balls to their preferred compression and all checked for on-centre cores too. Modern balls have harder covers (hence more durable) and compensate with softer cores, but those hard covers can be harsh on persimmon heads if you don't keep the ball clean as it will drive grit into the face.
So the thing you might really want to be looking for is a ball with a slightly softer cover that will work better with the clubface - especially if you do use and old-time club like my Tommy Armour. Again, I don't know what the grooves are like on your club to comment on that.
As for set up - there's a reason the ball was always teed higher for the driver and that is because it was always relatively forward in the swing and so on hitting the tiny bit up. We can debate those like Hogan who kept the ball in the exact same position relative to their head, or those who got it just inside the front heel, but with the trail foot further back the net result was much the same - hitting the ball on the up. With the ball teed with 1/4 to 1/2 of it above the face, not to hit just after the low point would mean skying it. With modern heads the ball is teed much higher but only because the head is much bigger - relatively speaking its the same. I don't know where the hitting down thing has come from, though I seen and heard it a few times, but it simply isn't right. Tee up with 1/4 - 1/2 the ball showing and hit as normal.
Hope this helps. I'm not perfect but this is about as good as I can get it. FYI, I spent my youth playing with and caddying for my dad who was a former tournament pro (before the formalised tours we have now) and later elite amateur. So I grew up fairly immersed in these things.
I have several boxes of NOS Titlist Pro-Traj and Tour Balata balls I use with my McGregor M-85 and M-75 wood sets and blade irons. Those balls are also great to use with my Hickory sets. Sooo much more fun to play than the modern crap! The art of shot making is all but gone from the modern game...what a shame!
@@Master...deBater Couldn't agree more. My frontline irons are Toney Penna Original blades of circa 1979 or 80 (from distant memory, while the other set I bring out are the full-muscle back MacGregor CF4000 Tourneys from early 60s. Woods I use Tommy Armour PGA driver and 4 wood, 1974. Balata off those clubs is just a joy and it's all about shot-making, not merely spanking the thing as hard as possible to impress your buddies (and ending up further into the boondocks). To me, the modern marketing-driven iteration of golf is not much different from standing on a practice range.
@@jonathanmercer7109 Nice kit! Yeah...my modern clubs are lucky if they make it out once a summer anymore! I just no longer care to maximize distance. I get so much more satisfaction from visualizing a shot and pulling it off...than from just playing the numbers game shot after shot.
I grew up hitting persimmon clubs.. my longest drives were close to 300 yards... But averaged about 250 yards. I played McGregor and hoag built Louisville drivers and woods... I actually hit my 4 wood, the day i broke the head, 250 yards.
So glad you followed up your promise to do this comparison! I was 16 in 1978 and played off 6. By then, of course, the only 1.62" balls were what we found after the veterans had lost them 😁 We were taught to tee 1/2 the ball above the driver face and hit down. It was the only way to get decent carry, as the driver had almost no loft. Big hitters at my club would total about 250 or 260 yds off the tee, and we ALWAYS tried to batter it when playing a 300 yarder, but only very rarely drove those greens.
Happy days, ahhh!
I think your old balls must have perished and lost elasticity, or you would certainly have hit them 50 yds further!
Really, maybe they have aged in their packaging. I’m glad you said you hit down on the driver because something didn’t feel right about trying to hit up with a steel shaft and small wooden head.
Funnily enough, I was too scared to tee 1/2 the ball above the face, so I went about 1/3. As my hero was Jack Nicklaus, I swung upright and faded it, so teeing the ball too high made it too easy to sky it.
I really must put a new grip on that old persimmon driver! I DID put an early graphite shaft in it, but can't say it made any noticeable difference 😊
I started playing golf at 13 1970! From what I’m seeing I believe my set up was A little closer to the ball. Irons 2-pw
I used a Joe Powell persimmon driver early 80's still in the loft..
Managed to get to 2 handicap playing places like Hillside, Birkdale, S&A, Fairhaven, St Anne’s Old Links, Lytham, etc
Ball turf was the way, definite hitting down..
It’s so easy these days with modern equipment. Duff a drive and it’s still gets out there, duff back in the day it’s 20 yards off the tee if you’re lucky😉🤣
I played in the 80s, and I couldn't really get on with my driver, but I used to hit my 5 wood about 200 yards, which at that time was reasonably competitive. Then in the mid 80s I bought a Browning Premier 16° metal 3 wood.
Then in the early 2000s I bought a Dunlap 65i Titanium Matrix driver for £40 from Sport and Soccer.
When I got back into golf a couple of years ago I was shocked by the advancement in club technology but also by the cost. My entire set of 3 woods, 12 irons, and a putter cost approximately what it would cost for a good driver today.
Hi Gaz , I used to work for Paul Gibson he had a club production company in yeadon Leeds and then went on to open an American golf outlet in menston importing the classic American persimmon drivers for refurb and resale, the driver you have is closer to late eighties to early nineties , great guy and sadly missed
Really? Don’t tell me that lol, that makes it even worse! Haha 😂
I didn’t know him, but his son dropped these in for us. Sounds like those were some good days to work within golf 👌🏼
I have a number of Paul Gibson woods in my collection. He was a superb clubmaker with a very impressive client list. I never met him but know him by reputation. Sad loss.
Just goes to show how awesome guys back in those days shooting consistently under par with the old balls and equipment. Sucked for weekend golfers.
Arnold, Jack and the likes of these guys hitting these close to 300 was just amazing because they are not easy to use(not consistently of course)
If you haven’t used this gear you will have no idea how much forgiveness there is in modern equipment. I played of 4 in the 80s using persimmon woods, blade irons and balata balls. I would love to know what i could have played off with the current gear. Striking the middle was very hard but you didn’t appreciate it at the time. I still have my old Mizuno pro 2 iron which i wince at just looking at!! The tour pros of that era would walk all over the current players - no question about it.
Started playing in the early 60's. We didn't even think of hitting up or down on the ball, with driver. It was more of a sweep. My first boss, Bill McHardy, at Hayling GC, hit drives over 270 carry.
To be fair, that makes sense.
I started in the mid 80s and couldn’t hit the woods. Learned to play a 2 iron off the tee and could hit it 220-240. Finally found a 12 degree Kunnan graphite composite driver I could hit a little. It is a single piece construction club, never saw another like it. The head and shaft are one piece of material. Still have and I need to drag it out to see if I can hit it one of these days.
I remember back the day when the big headed drivers were coming in, one of the commentators said that in the 70s that only Greg Norman could drive that far but now every pro can hit that far.
I used to go to the LA and San Diego PGA tour events every year back in the late1970s - early 1980s and would look at what the pros were playing. Most of them were using persimmon-headed drivers, not from that generation but rather from the 1950s, reshafted with the current shafts of choice. The reason they played 20 yr old persimmon heads is because they felt those older heads were denser and better quality pieces of wood than those made at that time. And I believe they did hit down on their driver as they had to rely on spin to get the ball in the air. I seem to recall a 250 yard drive was average tour distance with the long hitters hitting 270-280 yards.
The reason you feel like it would be so much harder back then is because you started out with an easier baseline. If you grew up back then and you were interested in golf, it wasn't "too hard", anymore than it is today. People didn't expect to be hitting as far as they do today, they didn't really have anything even vaguely resembling game-improvement irons...the difficulties were just a fact that you accepted as you learned to play.
I think that's part of the difference in attitude I see between older and younger golfers, in general...older golfers dealt with more frustrations in the process of becoming good, so they're more tolerant of new and/or high-handicap golfers who are out there enjoying the time on the course. A lot of comments from some younger golfers that I've seen online basically say, "If you aren't a ten handicap or better, quit. You don't belong on a course." That may be good for guys trying to squeeze in an extra round or two each week, but it's bad for the longevity of the sport.
I used to game a 6 degree persimmon driver and averaged around 230 to 240 and was off 7 in the early 1980s. We always hit down on the ball.
You must of had to swing out your socks to get that lol 😂 This combo didn’t want to move 😃
Not everyone hit down with the driver. When some wanted to hit it further, they teed it higher. Long tees were not manufactured back then so some of us used the short pencils (used for keeping score). A pro by the name of Rod Curl won the Colonial at times teeing off using an old Bic Pen on the Par 5s. Pros knew about launch angle through trial and error.
Those 400+ yarders with the old club are epic!
HAHAHA!
Nice show again mate, I remember watching a faldo video (tape remember them) and he swore it's the same swing no matter what club, so maybe they did hit down, you mentioned it but didn't see you try ? Keep them coming mate.
Sorry, I should have put a side angle in. I stopped reversing my spine and having the shaft behind the ball to prevent me hitting up so much.
Congrats on 20k. Well deserved. Yet another great video.
I started golf with a persimmon's set of woods and was hitting them 260-270 yards. Could outplay our golf club pro. Was offered a college golf scholarship but didn't have the temperament for it.
Get a full set of 1970’s clubs ( driver- putter and ball) play 9 holes. Then play the same 9 holes with your current bag.
In started playing golf in 1961 at 11 years old. You did have to be much more accurate and hit more down to the ground but maintain a correct arch. My first clubs were a set of H&B...1,2,3,4, woods steels shafts and 2-sand wedge irons steel shafts ...matching brand putter. I have seen all the changes and it is much easier playing with todays clubs. My current driver is a 2005 Callaway Big Bertha 460 10 degree. with a Accra Shaft i series stiff shaft that was done 1 year ago. I can now hit in the 280 to 300 yard range with it.
I’m a 52 year old golfer. I’ve been playing for 46 years. In 1987, at my age 16, I was playing for my high school team. My ball was either the Titleist professional, Tour Prestige, or a balatta ball. I was playing the Wilson Staff (laminate wood) woods with the Dynamic Gold x100 shafts.
At that time, age 16-18, I was driving the ball in the 280’s, with the rare occasional swing producing up to 290, 295 ish. Close to 300 yards. I don’t recall ever hitting 300 yards with that set up. I still have my clubs from high school. I have refinished them and are a decoration in my home office at my golf course home in the desert.
Today, playing the pro v1 and a Callaway Paradigm driver, with a club head speed of 108, I can hit drives 290-300 range.
I have taken my old Wilson staff 3 wood out to the course and I have hit a modern ball with that club. That 3 wood off the deck hitting a pro v travels approx 240 yards. The modern golf ball is much too hard for real woods. If I were to play my woods with a modern ball, they would soon break, delaminate, etc.
Yeah...I bought a bunch of NOS Titleist Pro-Trajectory and Pro-Balata balls several years ago to use with my M85 and M75 wood sets. They also work great with my hickory shaft sets!
Gives special appreciation for Mike Austin hitting this combo over 500 yards back in the '70s. lol
I just can’t work that one out. That’s insane!!
I’ve been playing golf since 1962. Until about 1991 I used a persimmon driver and Titleist balata balls. If I remember correctly, my handicap during the 80s and early 90s was 3 to 4. What struck me about your test strikes was that the simulator did not accurately reflect the way in which a well struck balata ball flew. It reminded one of a jet taking off. It would start out low and then soar quickly. The trajectory was quite different than today’s balls. Well struck, I could hit that ball much longer than the distance you generated, and you have a much better swing. I’m not an expert, but I suspect that has a lot to do with the simulator’s programming. As well, and probably more importantly, the old balatas significantly lost the effectiveness the older they became. If the Dunlop that you were hitting into the screen was manufactured more than 35 to 40 years ago, it would have progressively lost its zip. It would long ago have become what we referred to as a dead ball. All that said, I’d suggest that those with an expertise in these much older balls and clubs could much more accurately and scientifically explain all of this.
I never knew that about the balls losing performance with age.
We’re recording a playing vlog tomorrow, so hopefully, this will present the ball flight you mention! Can’t wait to play with them on the course 👌🏼
@@garymartingolf , apparently most, if not all, of the balls manufactured in the last 20 (?) years or so don’t suffer from the same kind of degradation.
Little bit of history, John Daly was playing with the Cobra driver that had a Kevlar composite head in 1991 not a wooden head.
I started golfing seriously in high school. Graduated in 1978. My first good set of clubs were the Titleist Acushnet. Full set 1,3, 4, 5 woods, and 2- PW irons. They were great clubs! Even back then. I still have them plus about 10 other persimmon woods I bought over the years until TaylorMade came out with the first metal driver, which I also still have. I was a 3 handicap for most high school years. I could hit a persimmon wood close to 300 when I hit it well, but that was with a Titleist DT golf ball. The big difference was when you hit heel or toe on a wood. Ball went nowhere, and you were penalized for a simple mistake hit vs today, you hardly notice a difference. But I believe that is why I became a good ball striker with much smaller sweet spots.
Late 60's golfer here (school age then). Regards to your swing style thoughts for swinging back then, same swing style and mechanics then as now.. My 1 1/2 wood (persimmon) driver distance for me was 250 - 280 yds.. with 37.5" 5 iron going 165yds on the fly and stick. Slazenger brand woods and Mk 4 irons. and I was only 5'-6" and 8.5 stone (no gorilla). I miss the solid feel of the clubs from that era
Forgot... The irons were Slazenger P75 Mk 4's
1980 tour average was 256.89, the longest driver was Dan Pohl with a 274.3 yard average, shortest was Michael Brannan with 238.7 yard average. 2023 tour average was 297.2, the longest drivers was Rory McIlroy with a 326.3 yard average, shortest was Brian Stuard with 271.5 yard average.
I'm 72 And yes you had to hit down on the old wooden drivers. And the sweet spot was the size of a dime. The best wood driver I ever had was the H&B Citation Best looking driver ever made.
I grew up back then. Started playing when I was 15. Your spot on when you say it was hard. The inconsistency in not hitting the center where penal with all that spin. Huge hooks and slices were common. When I hit it on the screws I’m sure 250 yards was a long drive. 220 more the average. In the late 60 s Jack Nicklaus averaged 280 with the McDonald’s Gregor ball which was not the best. Now add that everyone played forged blade irons. Your question about course length was about 6000 yards.
I can’t dream to think how had golf was back then. I bet it wasn’t very often you’d hit an iron off the tee on a par 4?
@@garymartingolf no. I never hit an iron off a tee. But I was consumed with getting better. I had two luxuries back then. I’m left handed. Clubs for us were hard to find. You played with what you found. One gift was that I had was there was a guy who was also left handed who was a 2 handicap he took to me and we played a lot together. He swung so hard it was unreal. He played Wilson clubs with x stiff shafts. I had to swing much more controlled and slower. I could hit it within 10 yards of him. The other luxury was my mom was a very giving person. She bought me a student membership for $35 so every morning she would fix my breakfast and then drive me to the course. She would pick me up in the afternoon at a set time. I played 36 holes a day every day but Sunday or in rain. Wish I could go back to those days. I recently found a set of Wilson Staff woods and irons made in 1973. Can’t wait to do what you did in this video. I’ve even got a 1 iron
I started playing in 1966. At my best I was a plus 2. The difference in the head weight is really different between the 2. And no, everyone tried to sweep the ball. Never hit down on it.
But never hit on the up either.
Yes they did. I still have a small freebie golf guide under Arnold Palmer's name from 1964 and he said to due exactly that.
golf channel has been playing golf films from the past. I saw Shell sponsored Nicklaus vs Palmer and those guys hit persimmon woods 254 or less.
I started playing in the 1960s. We definitely hit slightly down on it. To me, hitting up on the driver is a recent concept. When the large head drivers came out, it was so big to my eyes that I called it “a warehouse in a stick”.
I used persimmon and balata until 1998. My AoA was closer to 0 to +1...now is +5 and more.
Wow! Thats insane! Well done 👌🏼
I started playing golf in the late 70's when I was very young and I remember my first full set of clubs my mom bought me was a Northwestern set. Persimmon woods and blade irons. I had a hard time transitioning to a 460cc head in the 2000's lol. Honestly the players using this type of equipment and balls back then were amazing. Even so I remember watching tournaments back then and they would shank a shot here and there because of how hard it was to hit the sweet spot in these clubs and how much leg action they had to have. The fact that Palmer, Nicklaus, etc could hit drives over 300 yards with these woods is a testament to how much talent they really had.
I took the game up in my late 20s, playing with forged irons and wooden driver and fairways. The driver I liked the most was a great huge Slazenger, 50% larger head than most other clubs of its day (1979-80), With 100 compression wound balata balls, I could hit that driver 275 yards in the air when I hit it on the screws. You had to hit the plastic insert on the face to get any performance out of it; off the heel or toe it would go anywhere but far and hurt like hell.
My first metal woods were Lynx, with huge offsets that I got in 1982. That driver would send a golf ball 300 yards. I still have the fairways somewhere in the garage and I take them out once in a while just for the laughs.
Try that wooden driver with a ProV1, and you'll see just how mcsh of the difference is from the ball alone!
Up until 2011 I played a Billy Maxwell wooden 4 wood as I was hitting it 260 to 270 carry.The max distance I got was 307 yards total back about 1990. The only reason I stopped playing it was I lost it in a wildfire September 2011 when we lost everything! I never had a 3 wood and many times didn't play a driver. I miss it terribly! It was a D5 swing weight. It's all about hitting it out of the screws!
I watched a couple of old golf matches from early 70's. They drove the ball about 230 to 250.
Lowest club i saw was pitching wedge onto green. Didn't see low scores either, like +2 and +5 over
Im glad you said that, a lot of people are saying the old setup used to go near 300 lol
I’ve got a set to play with tomorrow! Vlog coming soon! Let’s see how hard the game was 😂
Agree with below. Love to see the new club with the old ball and vice versa!
Persimmon requires squeezing away, not hitting upon, that’s a new incarnation. The persimmon will fly low and run out for miles, you chase these drivers.
I have a memory from the dark ages when Faldo was a youngster - pros were driving 230 yards. Then there are Snead and Hogan legends of 300 yard shots. So 230 yards is a good result. Interesting video.
I'll play. I'll say the difference is 35 yards less with the old stuff, with a lot more dispersion and spin.
Old club Hit it on the screws 230 yards ,300 yards for the modern driver
Yes I started in early 1980s when I was working away with no lessons, little opportunity to practice and no CZcams. You could get peripheral weighted irons but they were still small compared to modern clubs. I had some Wilson metal woods which I struggled with and some MacGregor Persimmon woods which were also hard to use, still have them - nearly mint. In the end I just used my irons, even the 3 iron seemed easy to use in comparison though not so much the 2 iron. My putter was just a lump of metal too - Macgregor Jack Nicklaus Muirfield with leather grip, looked cool but no help, use it now and again when I feel like 3 putting. Yep much easier now.
Magregor persimmon and a titleist pts in the 1980s . Regularly hit it 300yds , gutted when the head cracked. A totally different swing is needed to hit them compared to today.
I used to play a persimmon driver when I started playing golf in 1990 but obviously back then we didn’t know any difference, great video again Gaz
Was the game harder then or now? Considering courses are longer ?
@@garymartingolf harder back then mate, less club fitting around and less forgiving equipment but golf was still enjoyable to play
I played Seve Ballesteros persimmon woods in the 1980s. With wound balata balls. I hit driver about 230. Today I hit driver 220 with all the new technology on offer. You would need a time machine to do a fair comparison.
If it makes you feel better, I’ve done a vlog today playing with a Wilson from 1978 and a Dunlop 65 balata and the “best” I got was 230 😭
I'm 64 and swing my TSI3 about 107 and hit it the same distance I hit my driver at 30 yrs old.
Just think how good the scratch/single figure players at your local GC were back in the 70's and 80's most local old courses haven't really been lengthened that much since then, I started playing in 1984 they say golf is hard well it was back then! In the 80's the big hitters on the PGA averaged around 275-285 yds. Great video.
I started playing golf in 1968 (15 years old) in the days of persimmon woods and British sized 1.62" balls. I never used a driver for the first 15 years I played, they were just too difficult, I teed off with a 3 wood.
Back in those days my ball of choice was the Dunlop 65, I was a pretty long hitter in my teens and my average drive was 250-270yards, on some rare occasions I got close to 300 yards, this makes me think although your ball was new because of its age the wound core must have degraded and lost its elasticity, certainly would have expected it to go further. When I changed over to the 1.68" ball in the mid 1970's it reduced my distance a lot and my average drive, still with a persimmon 3wood dropped back to 220-230yards, wasn't happy, the 1.62" ball was also better for holing putts 😢
I started playing in the late 1970's, we had Persimmon woods and blade clubs, the woods were a hard hit, very small sweet spot, but the irons were better weighted and felt fantastic relative to new stuff. It was all about strike back then, hitting down on it and sometimes sweeping it with the long irons. Look at Ian Woosnams swing....
I liked his idea of you using the old stuff & him using the modern stuff . Should be a close match up ! 👍
I might do it actually, can I beat a 10 handicap with a 1970’s set 😅
@@garymartingolf 👍👍
Very Interesting Gary...I made a video on my channel playing 9 holes with this old 1970's equipment. I didn't remember golf being so hard back then! Is that Dunlop 65 ball the current size or is it from before the R&A made the change from a smaller ball.
Good video Gaz, like most sports, technolgy has made the game much easier (although still super hard!). Remember watching Sam Snead taking on celebrities on the golf channel. Commentator used to say regularly, thats a 275 yard drive straight down the middle.
I've been playing this game for over 60 years. I still have my MacGREGOR clubs I bought in 1959 as a junior in high school. I was taught to hit up on the driver and hit down with the irons. Of course wind conditions will change how much that is the case.
I hit persimmon driver in the late 70's and early 80's when i was 17-22. A good drive was 250 yards. At 61, I'm 30 yards longer today. Same with irons. An 8 iron was 150, today it is 165. Today's tour players are great, but would love to see what the old guard could do with today's equipment.
when i started i used my dad's clubs, wooden woods and balls that all had a split in them (top one with an iron and it split the cover). Now and again I'd get a balata covered ball and they were soft. I remember the Dunlolp 65i coming in and they were like rocks. I'll bet you can manoeuvre the ball with a wooden wood better than you can with a modern one. My first new set of woods were wooden, metal had just come in but there were some awful things about.
The game has certainly changed massively. There was certainly a lower percentage of club members with handicaps in single figures and very, very few scratch or better. 475 yards was a par 5 and out of reach in 2 for 90% of players. No thought of 60 degree wedges and there was a time that a 1 iron became popular.
I can imagine why a 1 iron became popular. I can’t imagine a 4 or 3 iron off the tee being much use lol 😂
Irons were lofted higher then too...in the 70's as a 20 year old I hit a 7 iron 150. Now at 69 I hit a 9 iron 150...I think they are the same club with a different number on them.
@@garymartingolf
I played St. Andrews in Sept of 1970. Had Spalding clubs with aluminum shafts. Actually drove into the creek on hole one.
I wanted to see the old club with new ball? How did you leave that out? 😂
Hitting up is modern. A long drive with that old club was 250 yds.
I was a teenager playing golf with a set of MacGregor Golden Bear irons and woods. At the time cost me
Would like to have seen -- the new driver with old ball results and old drive with new ball. Much thanks, but I use to hit over 300 yds with those old balls and driver. 1981
I played Bethpage Black with Hogan clubs persimmon woods. Shot in high 90s to low hundreds
What would you shoot now ?
@@garymartingolf At 72 I would not even guess. Course yardage from men's tees was about 5700. Played before renovation.
That was more off a difference than the last video, what was the difference when you hit the new ball with the old club? Can't remember if you tried that last video.
Was cool this experiment as I was telling my fourball about the last video today, they gonna watch it.
As far as I can remember Seve's driver distance from the tee with those old persimons was 280-300yrds.
Great video Gaz. I can remember using Woods back in the 80’s as a teenage golfer. The modern clubs are so much easier to hit in comparison as technology has progressed.
I started playing in 1971. I teed the ball pretty low and made a point to slap the club head off the ground hitting slightly down on the ball. It would cause a rising ball flight. Good drives were 250 yds. Best ever was 300+,but I didn't always know where the ball was going... 😂🤣
Definitely need a flat path into the ball with a persimmon Driver. The balls were designed to spin more and climb. Same action with hickory clubs. I'm 70 years old and play modern clubs, and 1982 Ram blades and persimmon woods and I play hickory clubs (pre 1935) It's fun to mix them up. In my youth I could get the persimmon driver out about 275. Now, not so far !!! haha Cheers from Canada
Played these type drivers from 1974 at age 10 into the late 80’s and early 90’s. I remember watching the greats play them along with Daly, Jeff Sluman and Louisville Golf made one for Mr. Woods to practice with in his beginning. All those guys were over 275 with one. I still game a persimmon and laminated maple from time to time and my distance stays the same. I hit my Cobra driver 250+ yards and I can hit a Wilson Crusher Laminated Maple Driver 250 yards. I’m 58 years old and the one thing I do better is hit more fairways with the wooden drivers than the modern drivers and I can work the ball better. Try hitting up on the ball. The average loft for these drivers unless custom were 11* in loft.
Great video!
Early 1980’s I had a Macgregor driver, that was brand new, everyone said it was the best.
Well...I started playing in the mid 80s and we definitely hit down on the ball with balatas and persimmon drivers. The ball would start out low and swoop up during the second half of its flight, before falling out of the sky! I actually love that old ball flight...but it simply cannot be replicated with today's equipment.
About 10 years after that era of wooden club about 1984 I was playing a lot of golf. I had a set of Wilson Staff metal woods. The head size was approximately the same. My irons were Powerbilt Citations. I could shoot high 70's every time out with approx 40 putts per round. Yup, my putting sucked.
Severiano topped out with his Tommy Armour Two wood and titlelist balls at two seventy yards
I was a teenager in the 70's. Wasn't happy unless my drive didn't go 290+yards which was my average. Longest drive was 321 yards using an HB driver with steel shaft. My dad put 3 lead split shoots in the sole to slow my swing speed.
New to old clubs need totally different swings. Old needed most of your weight going forward through the ball with a fast swing speed. Flight was a lot lower, 6* club, but the runout was longer.
Must bring back a lot of memories to use that equipment from when you were a kid again, huh Gaz?
Just damn well hit it.
I started playing as an adult in 1976. We used titleist balls and persimmon drivers. Yes a good drive was 250yds. Those drivers are like a 5 wood of to day. A 100mph swing speed was very good.
I started playing golf in 1980 and played persimmon woods and Wilson blades all the way up to 1992. There wasn’t that many golfers then. That’s because the game was uber-hard. It gives you a real appreciation for all of those old pro golfers. Think about Nicklaus hitting a 300 yd drive with one of those drivers. If you watch old golf videos, you will see a lot more bad shots, even from the pros. The courses were a lot shorter, which made maintaining a lot cheaper. It cost me like $5 to walk 9 holes. The greens weren’t cut as short, also saving money on high costs of pristine green running at 11. They were smooth though; just slower. I don’t recall as many courses having greens maintenance issues. You didn’t have courses packed with players that have no idea about etiquette. My grandfather taught me etiquette on the course. It’s not about being snooty; it’s about good order and discipline on the course. IMHO, I enjoyed golf more back then. I carried my clubs. Driver and a 4 wood, and 3-p, a SW and a putter. I used whatever ball I could find. You didn’t swing out of your shoes. You were forced to maintain your swing. You “golfed” your ball. I dunno. I think golf is eventually recede back to a rich person’s game. It’s simply not an affordable hobby anymore. When you have drivers costing $600, add an upgrade shaft in it and you have over $1000 into that one club, we’ve reached insanity. Irons are regularly costing $1000 a set and the premium ones can cost you $2000. Insanity. Rounds on a decent course here cost $75. Insanity. The regular person is going to eventually find something else to do.
We hit more down with those old woods. The down strike created that spin to get the ball up. You can watch old videos of pro golfers and the ultimate trajectory was low ball ball off the tee then spinning up to the apex then hopefully run out.
Can't hit up on those old clubs.
Thanks for confirming that 👌🏼
Hi Martin, loved the video, I played persimmon woods ( Jack Nicklaus ) in the early seventies Hogan Irons and my handicap was 5, average drive about 210/220 yards
fortunately the short game was good. I prefer todays clubs lol.
I started playing in 1965 as a 13 year old, so I played extensively with Persimmon and balata balls, and then an equally long time with metal drivers and ProV1's. The modern driver clubhead is so much more forgiving that it is laughable. A ball hit a half inch off center now still gives you a pretty good result. A ball hit that far off center then lost substantial distance. Yes, the old balls launched lower and spun more as compared to modern balls. Championship courses were in the 6700-7000 yard range then. I recall one year around 1970 when Jack Nicklaus led the tour at 270 yard driving average, and the average distance of all players on tour was 252 (as I recall the numbers). The game was more fun because the ball curved more and there was, in my opinion, more skill involved.
Rather bizarrely, I have found my distance with a recently bought old tour model persimmon is about the same as my Ping G driver - about 220 to 230 yards, with a lower flight and more run - using a modern ball for both clubs.