Betfair betting exchange - Betfair premium charge explained - Part two
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- čas přidán 22. 08. 2024
- Here is part two of the Betfair premium charge discussion that I promised. If you are Betfair trading on the Betfair betting exchange you have probably heard of it.
I've tried to create a balanced view of it so you can see it from all angles, but obviously, I'd prefer if it never existed. However, I also discuss why it exists.
This video focuses on the charge itself and how it affects me, but also the type of people that tend to get captured by it.
Lots of people talk about premium charge avoidance, but contrary to popular opinion, a lot of people that have views on the premium charge may not actually pay it. A reasonable number pay the lower rate charge, but have never qualified on ANY of the criteria of the higher rate charge. It's just seen as a badge of honour, which they shouldn't wear.
Views are generally negative on the charge, especially the higher rate charges. But it's much worse for people like me that couldn't do anything about it. We got really stung!
Search and comment on the forum if you want to learn more or express a view:-
www.betangel.com/forum
Peter set up your own exchange mate - charge a flat 3% to all customers, link it only to Bet angel software and save us all.
Betdaq at 2% and Bet Angel is free, so we have practically done that already!
The 60% higher rate is excessively greedy and surely counter productive to their business model. I've heard of people either moving on to other things or exchanges because of this. Not to mention the knock-on effect of putting off potential customers (traders) and less winners = less people interested in using their services.
At the 5% rate, take a trader netting £100k per year as an example; Betfair would be making around £5-10k annually from this person (depending on strike rate). That is a huge amount for any company to be making from one customer every year for providing a relatively simple service on a mass scale. At the current 60% PC rate Betfair would be taking £60k from that customer every year which is crazy just for using their platform.
I know they are business and they know that traders don't have many other places to go. Some sort of structure similar to the UK tax model where you have an allowance up to a certain amount which resets every year would be more reasonable. I would like to see the growth of exchanges and more competition between them but as you've also noticed this has been much slower than expected, probably down to the favourability for companies to keep the bookmaker model due to the larger house edge.
I think it is a mistake, but knowing how corporations work they won't change it until there is a crisis. If you look at it from a broad perspective they could get caught in a backward spiral. It impacts turnover and commission generated so in response to meeting the numbers they squeeze margins which impacts turnover and commission generated so in response......repeat until it's too late.....
Does'nt affect me coz I'm so Rubbish....lol
Premium Charge is outrageous. 60% - wow - unbelievable. Especially as when it was applied retrospectively. Unfortunately, I haven't earnt enough money to get near it. I think 30% would be the Maximum even then it would still be expensive. Betfair just doesn't want people, who have the ability too, to just snatching money out of the market. I believe that if they are going to apply 60% commission it should reset every 12 months and people should be allowed to earn £50k per year before that % kicks in.
Betfair just doesn't listen to anybody about anything. That's what happens when Businesses have a Monopoly.
An individual limit per year seems like a sensible solution.
Implementing it retrospectively seems like theft. Changing a contractual obligation without agreement and forcing back charges does not seem legal.
You could challenge it most likely, but then you wouldn't have a Betfair account any more. It was a very cleverly constructed charge.
@@betangeltv - It seems like them cancelling your account after fraudulently taking your money would be cause for a serious lawsuit.
At the same time, if they are giving very low (or zero) charges to Paddy Power then that would be considered anti-competitive and subject to antitrust laws. Of course I haven't reviewed their corporate structure but I suspect that it is separated for liability reasons and that technically would mean that they have to give the same rates to any other customer.
Have you tried contesting any of this or heard of anyone who has...?
Shades of the old British Government's answer to the stars of the 60's, who were really successful - tax them, tax them! Tax them enough and eventually, they'll say "F*ck this!" and go elsewhere/move abroad.........
PPB are currently returning £500m to shareholders, I think the ecosystem is unbalanced!
Today(Jan 28th) is the last day we can use Betfair in India. Betfair has closed its operations in India from now. What to do.
they also closed in Albania. now what will you do?
yes Peter. Do you know anything about the betfair movements? in Italy we have only Italian liquidity. Will you come to shared luity? You know nothing about it
Excellent videos Peter. I really enjoy your content and instruction. I use Betfair and am concerned about the premium charge as a system I use is increasing in profitability. My only concern about using Betdaq is that they do not offer starting price on the exchange unlike betfair with their BSP. Any idea why this is missing from Betdaq?
Thanks for your message. Betdaq do offer an SP mechanism and I think it's better than Betfair's, it's called XSP and it's available ot use on Bet Angel for Betdaq as well.
@@betangeltv Thanks for the quick reply Peter. Sorry I forgot to mention it was the place market on the exchange that I make use of the BSP. I know there will be a way to use BetAngel to replicate what I need as I have been looking into it. It's just another feature that I think Betdaq lacks that would really help it compete with Betfair. It's a shame because because if they replicated the Betfair model in a few more instances I feel they could gain more market competition.
Hi peter. Thanks for all your videos they are a great inspiration,
I do get the premium. However you say that they are paid ones a week, with that in mind do you automatically put money away everyday then trading is over to cover this extra charge ? And or what happens if there for some reason is not enough to cover this charge on ones betfair account ?
Thanks in advance for any feed back from you or from anyone else
Best regards
Michael
an option which some people might have and I accidentally fell into.
I started off arbing in 2003 and made large losses on betfair while
taking the same amount plus a little bit more of the bookmakers ,
but you know the story , the bookmakers accounts have all been
restricted or closed.
I now have a a betfair account with huge losses and and have found
a niche making small profits on 65% of races and about the same
losses per race on the other 35% of races.
anyway the point is if you have a losing account then you wont be
paying the premium charge until you have recouped all your loses
plus some profit....
Arbing, before you hit PC, will help you avoid it as you will be able to pay higher commission overall. Even that has limits though as I can't get on enough most of the teim.
Hey Peter , one shocking news. Betfair has closed accounts of indian cuStomers like me. I have been using betangel for like 3 years now and suddenly my 40% of yearly income has stopped. Very frustrating
Yes, I'm aware of that. Unfortunately, Betfair seems very quick to pull the exchange from a number of markets. It used to be everywhere but has slowly pulled backed.
@Philosopher K online gambling was sort of grey area. Neither legal nor illegal. Technically we are placing bets somewhere else.anyways it's gone now.
What does, "number of markets," even mean? Is the Under 2.5 and Under 3.5 Goals Markets, considered two different markets or are is it considered one "Goals Market." Thanks.
All individual markets. You only really fall into the trap if you have made a lot of money and the commission you have paid is 'too low'
@@betangeltv What do you mean by "a lot of money" ?
10k ? 100k ?
Hi Peter,
In the video you said because of your passed trading style you couldn't avoid the premium charge, l am just starting out using Bet Angel (trading horse races pre race) . Is there anything l can do to stay under the top rate apart from just making £240,000 Profit and then quitting. When you mention number of markets traded is that each week or during the lifetime of the account.
The biggy is the amount of commission you have paid as a percentage of profits. I was 11 years into my journey when that was imposed, so I was completely stuffed. I couldn't rewind 11 years and change my style. So if you are below it but heading towards it you can still change things around. If you think you are going to hit £250k then get in touch and we can advise the best path of action.
Thanks for the reply, l will be in touch in the future.
@@betangeltv So to get 60% level i must get at least 250k ??
do you think there are many that are able to read the horse racing markets the same as you Peter?
Without sounding a bit full of myself, there isn't anybody I'm aware of that is near. But part of that is because I started before anybody even knew what sports trading was and I've held my edge for longer than anybody as well. So there are mitigating factors. Adam Heathcote was an excellent trader and it's interesting to speculate where he would have got to if he hadn't stopped because of the premium charge. But I did teach him and he was in the market at a favourable time, so mitigating factors again.
To give you some idea of scale, when I did the ambassador campaign for Betfair they were struggling to get the 'right' people in place so I offered one of my long term customers to them, who they asked to promote another product. But the other participant had a lifetime P&L that was just 10% of the commission I had paid, that's how big the gap was!
@@betangeltv I know it's football, but what do you make of Psychoff, Peter? Caan had an article on him in which it was mentioned Psychoff made over 50k a month. Do you reckon there are many bettors/traders making 6 figure profits (without commission) a year from Betfair? And on another note, is it possible to do so on Betdaq, without the commission increasing to above 10%?
What's your view on Smarkets, do you think it's viable for trading?
I'm sure Smarkets doesn't currently have an API which allows trading software to be used with it but theres something on their website about working on one
I believe you are a Betfair Shareholder as well if I remember right. So the PC charge would add to Betfair's P&L which increases the share price so you do profit from it in a small way. There should be more than one top exchange by now anyway. What the fuck Betdaq do in their office's all day beats me.
I was a shareholder but not anymore. My vision as a shareholder was that they exchange would come to dominate the landscape, but like a lot of companies when they go public Betfair seem to have focused on cost cutting and driving margin. That's led to the exchanges falling into a gap, rather than being used as the lever for growth. Things like price rush were a good use of exchanges, but have you noticed how that's vanished now, in favour of just keeping the margin in the sportsbook?
I understood fu*k all.
Started watching your videos and straight away never used betfair exchange due to their premium charge, I use Smarkets, betdaq and matchbook which are reasonable. Betfair has a lot of liquidity in the markets but so are other exchanges. Soon enough betfair will start to decline and most likely buy out other competitors and apply same premium charge. So Peter why not build an exchange with your knowledge you could even have a better model. Think about it.
We already partner Betdaq and offer software for free there, so haven't considered it viable to create a new exchange from scratch. Partnering somebody else seems a more viable option.
Completely free, but that's why nobody really promotes or talks about it as it doesn't pay a whopping affiliate commission.
If on your lifetime summary, if gross profit & loss shows £-5,000.00 for instance.
Is that saying that you are in the hole for £5,000 or that you have made £5,000
???
That would indicate that you have lost £5k over the lifetime of the account.
@@betangeltv Thanks for the reply. One more thing, so the premium charge page shouldn't be on the My Account menu??
It only appears when you get close to paying it.
@@betangeltv Thanks for the reply. I will forge on and be back when I join the club.
Hi - good video. Are you still happy to share some wisdom with people who (think they) are approaching the higher rate premium charge? - If so I will reach out to you....
There are very few of us, so happy to help.