Should Stealth Be Removed From The Game? | League of Legends
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- čas přidán 9. 06. 2024
- Having made a video about untargetability in League of Legends 2 months ago, I decided to make another one where we talk about another controversial mechanic: Stealth!
~Timestamps~
(0:00) - Introduction
(5:47) - Part One: Why Stealth is Good?
(9:25) - Part Two: Why Stealth is Bad?
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#LoL #Stealth #Discussion - Hry
As with most controversial mechanics, I've always believed that introducing counterplay is way more interesting that just removing them
This man right here, is an intellectual.
Imagen if you where invis and if you hit a collistion box it revelaed you for a half sec or so kinda like spy from tf2, rewards good players but makes it less frustrating in teamfights where it is already hard to tell where champs like kha or vanye are. Makes it so at least there is a way to see them. I dont know if this is any good but it is food for thought
yea....
remember season 3?
yea, it didnt work out well
Rip oracle pot
Remember when pink wards revealed invis? I miss that
I love how even Neeko’s 0.25 second stealth was throw in there
It's really handy, throw you clone away from the enemy and run straight at them... theyll never see it coming
You don't know how much it confuses people with Darius brain to disappear. Even for a very small moment.
Her stealth is more a way to make it so you don't know which is the real neeko. If she didn't have it, it would be much easier to tell where she is. Which would make the mind games from her W not possible
@@screechingtoad2683 I just escaped a 1v5 with it so yeah thats why 😂
My neeko always move weird while I I'm in stealth, that time helps me calibrate to run straight and pretend I'm a clone. The stealth saves me too much
I think Pykes stealth is the healthiest stealth in the game. It allows players to know that he's around but not from where
It makes it absolutely useless. Just remove warnings
@@Fremdscham-uu3xv no, just no
@@Fremdscham-uu3xv ????
@@benjaminbarraza8972 lmao yes. Thats how a game should be. Challenging and not predictable. CertainlyT made a great job, when he used to design champions
@@greatsoup7540 what?
“If there was no fog of war you could never be ganked”
Tell that to my silver friend who gets 4 danger pings as the enemy Lee walks over 3 wards and a scuttle crab and he still gets ganked
every time i count how many pings does it take for my adc (usually) for him to realise the entire enemy team is bout to gangbang him.
@@antoninstrelba1948 The worst is when you (support) back up and ping them and they die 3v1 and spam ping you for leaving them
@@jimmyelkordy3752 if i’m 6-0 don’t leave meeeeee we can win
If i’m not fed it’s 100% my fault
“I couldnt imagine it would be too much of a problem if sona or janna disappeared”
And now the supp mains are crying thanks
Sona Invis up to team, BOOM five man ult. Janna invis up to team, BOOM you're split up with your squishies in easy reach of the enemy and the tanks waaaaay over there.
If you seriously think stealth on supps would be no problem you have no imagination.
@@nicolinrucker5181 infamous janna invis flash in front of you R insec combo
@@animegirl5980 PROWLERS CLAW JANNA
Invis on Lulu=surprise polymorph
@@nicolinrucker5181 I think there's a very big difference between an initiation with stealth and instantly deleting someone because of it. If Janna splits up the entire team with her ult, she's a squishy support in the middle of your team you can immediately kill and you can counter-engage the enemy team to not have to "worry" about it.
If an Assassin pops in out of stealth and instantly deletes you someone, your choice is to give up the fight or fight 4v5, to say nothing of the one person who just flat out doesn't get to play at the moment.
"Twitch can't just peace out when things get heated"
Oh really?
Only if he gets a takedown though, which, if things get heated, meaning not going his way, he most likely won't, unless he saves it, which a Twitch play most often does not.
I have an extensive amount of time on twitch. He can just peace out. He has a slow so he can q safely, get to tower and turn into the turret
With nearly 100k mastery on twitch, i would say this is correct. The range that he can be seen while invisible is quite large and, being a fairly slow champion, the opponents can typically catch up even with his slow pool.
Twitch only has camouflage, so if you're in the zone you can see him. Tag him with a hit and he loses his out of combat move speed boost.
-A Twitch player who has gotten chased down a bunch.
actually, he can't. twitch is 100% acceptable in his ability to go stealth, he has a delay in it activating, he also has zero mobility skills and only gains a minor speed buff while moving near enemies. the only way twitch can make use of it from close range vs any skirmisher or assassin is in combination with flash and praying no one cuts off his pathing or predicts his movement.
my point is, he can only really "peace out" if he has done so before hes in too deep, its a good preventative defence or planned attack but very very limited get out of danger after hes in it card
Average human reaction time: 16 frames
Me, playing with 10 fps: *I have no such weaknesses*
Me playing with 18 average: sadly, i do
Tanks with stealth are not really threatening.
Malphite: Hmmmm.....
Imagine a malphite or ornn going invisible then suddenly getting a five man ult off winning the game with no time to react
AP Nunu sitting inside the Ocean drag pit:
@@samueltate3549 You mean like Earthshaker with a Shadowblade?
@@MerlinCross13 as in if it was part of their kit (passive invisibility)
Passively built in would be stupid busted. Having to buy it(And possibly not synergize with the rest of your stats/ratios) helps cripple that to more a 'meme' idea in Dota.
The only issue with stealth I have is hitting an enemy champion who is stealth doesn't reveal them to me which is weird.
What do you mean, they get a ghost shadow... tells you exactly which way they are facing and is very hard to miss
@@fuergrissaostdruaka2895 sure, but I play Viego where all my abilities can be freely aimed, but my damage comes from autos, so even if I hit them I can’t do anything with it.
@@zombiecarnivore I'm missing your point here
@@fuergrissaostdruaka2895 veigo have a sword and if you know that you have stuned someone in a place it doesnt really make any sense than he cant auto attack them bc he knows where they are just the stealth mechanic being in the way
I agree I think if your ability hits them, they should be revealed
wait until people find out every champion can go stealth with items
Wait what?! Ban League of Legends!!
What items give stealth?
@@avroskroksthestarfish4495 draktar. The assasin red blade. When you kill someone you get stealth for a couple seconda
@@aragorncestarelli77 you mean Duskblade?
@@dumpsterjedi6148 its called duskblade of draktar so you are both right
Honestly the biggest issue with stealth is they nerfed vision so many times while doing less to punish the invisible, you used to be able to have multiple pink wards (control wards) out and they weren't visible without your enemy using a counter ward, now they just take it out and rotate while you're left paranoid about the next time where you wont be lucky.
they didnt nerf stealth vision much
its just once. ._.
and that was the removal of pink wards
even then, control wards can reveal camoflauged units , who rely on their positionign while stealthed to cause chaos
@@owo4470 they did actually, back then wards were infinite until riot capped it into 3 per champ not including pink wards. Back then sentries had range and you can scout out enemies, now it's around you so things are riskier. There used to be a spell named clairvoyance and it works like the blue ward but it was removed too. Back then jglrs was able to buy a jngl item that can put down 2 wards and riot removed it. Back then there were support items like twin shadows that helps you scout out enemies while warding, guess what? Riot removed it, point is, pls buff vision riot
@@bigpoop146 Or Oracle elixir that turned champions into moving pink wards too.
Clairvoyance was questionable summoner at best and ranged sweeper was not as risky at scouting but when you were using it to clear vision or to check bigger area it was worthless. So removing those was not a "nerf" at all.
Also we lost the ability to carry "infinite wards" but each champion got a vision item for free. This was not nerfing vision, this was evening it out so supports are not only ones responsible. If you play at low elo and support is the only one warding, it hurts, but if ppl play correctly, it actually improved both vision and supports quality of life (source: support main since season 2).
And stealth is much better than it was. Yeah, now stealthy champs cannot be spotted by control wards, but previously every invisibility was stealth... no camouflage. Evelynn was invisible until she decided she is right next to you for long enough. Rengar could have walked right next to your tank to jump at a carry. Additionally you can now spot a blue flicker effect on invisible champ if he has dmg over time or got damaged by other means if he is loosing life while invisible. This was not the case as well. No using aoe spells into a bush and waiting if strange Teemo silhouette appear
Lastly: We got plants... they may be overlooked a lot and are not usable against "combat" stealth that much but... yeah... plants
@@witto200 i actually agree with everything you're saying but the original argument is that vision was only nerfed once, also being a peak masters support i actually enjoy the vision meta then more than now though im a really biased since ive always enjoyed more of the macro aspects of the game haha
You forgot the Nunu stealth mechanic. Enemy Nunu jg would suddenly pop up right beside you rolling a huge ass snowball. The best part is that it existed in the game for quite sometime.
It wasnt until a riot game designer encountered the problem where they finally fixed it.
its still not fixed
@@owo4470 alright nunu jg to master for me this season
@@wolfy8006 I mean Pants are Dragon got rank 1 by one tricking Nunu.... who knows how many of those bugs he abused? We never see the enemies POV :^)
He’s still a good player but yeah Nunu is kinda broken, as in code is broken lmao
@@owo4470 it got fixed but returned with vengence.
I love when my zed ult is cancelled after an alkali walks into a donut.
totally deserved. Would be better if the ult was put on full CD.
oh no there is counter play to your point and click ult. Just like how talon will ult right after you ult him.
@Cloudy Nguyen This was one of the most unexpected
plays zed and complains about a smoke cloud..
@@JayKayPc Laughs in pantheon E.
Stealthy champions have a harder time in higher level play when vision control is much better like warding an Evelynn's or Shaco's camps will give info so that's tricky. I just wish Oracle's Lens updated the invisible champ's position more frequently.
Honestly yeah i think it would be fine if oracles made stealthed champs completely visible and targetable. It already does this for traps.
@@GiRR007 It would be exactly like the old pink ward trick, only even stronger because 1 : it doesn't cost any gold 2 : oracles moves with you. Therefore it would make it totally impossible to teamfight with Kha'Zix or Akali for example. I think Riot removed this feature for a good reason. But a more frequent refresh on oracles would be a great idea
@@louisf2506 I mean its not like oracle can stay on forever , and you can bait enemies into using their oracle early.
@@GiRR007 oracle lasts for 10 seconds, which is longer than Akali's shroud at max rank and as long as a full Kha'Zix rotation. In the case of KZ you can't just bait oracle out early because his stealth is on his ultimate, so you have to commit fully when you use it and also oracle has a shorter CD than his ult's base CD. So I still think with this meta where there are usually 2 oracle per team, it would be impossible for them to teamfight, and the same thing goes for vayne
Oracle already completely fucks invisible champs. This is a matter of you getting better at using that info - you don't need more info.
"Stealth is gae" - Sun Tzu, before landing a blind hook on Kha'Zix.
"Champions with stealth usually don't have any other defensive abilities, the exception is Vayne"
*Cries in i literally can't gank akali because she has 3 or more fucking dashes*
@STERBEN Yea it's not like E has 2 dashes either
@STERBEN yet there you go, at least 3 dashes, nice talk man
Yeah he got this one so wrong so many champs have a defensive ability.... even if it isn't a defensive ability. It can be used as one.
and to think they were originally gonna make lux W stealth everyone she shields.....
if something could reveal enemies since is made out of light
*shivers* that should not be a thing.
@@lostlegionnaire3767 They would have 100% added it if she was released today.
How do you lose a fight when the other guy doesn’t even know they are in a fight for half of it
You could say that for almost every assassin that one shots squishies
@@Boss-yl5gk no
@@Boss-yl5gk stealth and camouflage deny information
Game sense, stealth is op only in low elo
@@lollo2001ll your right khazix and evelynn were never in high elo
The only champion I have a problem with is shako. He has absolute invisibility and as a main support I took that personally. Doesn't matter how carefull and consistent you are with your wards he's suddenly behind you and with no way of knocking him out of his stealth.
im a shaco supp main. tehe.
red trincket when fights start. the best counter to the champ and he is really weak without that element of surprise
I agree - at least the others give some warning, but shacos just like “surprise mother trucker”
I hate Shaco
No red trinket how sad plz don't complain
Vars, has anyone told you that your voice is perfect for this? Real nice to hear your explanations, cause it is interesting and you have a good voice XD
Dawww
Im actually surprised by how well you pick the video subjects and thumbnails. Nice video, keep it up!!!
Rengar is actually ok for me, the warning is hard to miss and if he jumps in first he's either gonna burst or get bursted in a teamfight. He also has no extra escape, so he can't just get away easily after jumping on someone.
His concept of one animation killing is so toxic though that he will never be allowed to stay viable
Also it's on his ultimate, making him really not that much of a threat when he doesn't have R. Unless you're dumb enough to walk up to bushes
id say pyke is simmiliar. he does have a dash though hes one of the most squishy champs. also it is his engage weapon.
Oh ho someone wasn’t around for tank rengar right after his rework. Could one shot you in the middle of your team and walk out
@@pebblebrowser "Dumb to walk in bushes" Eh. You mean like around Baron, Drake... Bottom... Top... Whole jungle? You should at least say "unwarded" bushes. That makes little more sense.
you do not need to be an adc main to hate akali, we toplaners agree wholeheartly
supports can also vouch for the hatred, when your midlaner feeds an akali you and your adc are both done
I think literally everyone can agree on just hating Akali, that champion is impossible to front load burst, gank, outsustain damage, run away from or chase. Stupid fucking design
@@armandklink4843 Yeah, a champion with 47% win rate is OP. Most LoL players hating a champion doesn't make it OP. Most LoL players are Silvers - Most LoL players have no fucking idea how to play the game.
@@rachi7629 an akali main, lets just ignore him and ban his champ
@@rachi7629 personally I think her winrate is only so low because she is a hard champion to play very well. A good Akali main easily exceeds 55% winrate just like a good irelia does. Also Akali is a pretty popular pick, which paired with her difficulty, results automatically in a lower winrate overall. This happens with many champions like Irelia, Yasuo, Ezreal etc., all the champs people pick when autofilled or because they are fun
What if they introduced a tiny armor debuff after leaving stealth?
That may be good, but by how much is the question.
@@letsrank9349 id say by at least 10 to 20% for maybe 2 seconds or so. Reason being if its percentage then those with low armor values already are squishy so this really wont be so broken or bad on them, still noticeable. But on a absolute mad-lad Darius or ad Thresh then they will FEEL that big 20% debuff, hell make it that in stealth they feel that debuff and it fades away after the stealth ends.
i second this, there should be a small penalty to stealth. They put one on blizz's speed where he progressively gets slower so players dont abuse it and use it more carefully because it can backfires. It's still good but you have to keep in mind that it can get you in trouble. So yeah, good idea
I mean most champs with stealth are squishies that do dmg they need a way to get to u and so the dmg so they have stealth but make a squishy even squishier and you would destroy the champ imagine Evelynn which can be easily one shoted with even less armour when she attacked from the passive
I don’t think stealth should be longer than 1 second. Camouflage I’m fine with, things like neeko I’m fine with, akali having 5 seconds of stealth is one of the most frustrating things to deal with. Long stealth should not be a thing, that’s the point of camouflage.
Akali isn't that bad bcs she has to be in her w shaco on the other hand has an alkali shroud every 4 seconds and can get anywhere he wants with it and for the fs of it has a blink on top
@@skelet8337 Akali is absolutely busted bullshit champ design that is supposed to be hard but is actually really forgiving because of her braindead disengage
@@viklifts-zk8bl um... what? Akali is not forgiving. you make one tiny positional mistake in shroud and your fucking dead. Her r1 was changed from being a free target to needing a target. All she has is e1 in lane. She has even less health now (which is I think is reasonable) early game. And keep in mind when she uses shroud, it takes 20 seconds+ the duration of her shroud to use it again. I wouldn't call her busted, I think she's finally at a good spot regarding her balance. She's supposed to be garbage early. good at mid and late. Which earlier on in her life, she had one of the most oppressive early games champions could have.
If she is using shroud and somehow she's getting away, your severely positioning wrong. I don't know what role your playing, but if akali's in mid lane and your jungle, your going to want to cut her turret off from her.and depending on who's shoving (akali or your laner) akali's shroud will be so close to your side, that you should easily be able to kill her pre level 6. And let's say get's away. You now have 20+ seconds to go punish her if she tries pushing out again. And 20+ seconds where she has no escape outside of her small e1 dash, which is fairly easy to stop with any form of cc.
Just learn how the champion plays and functions. Know her cool downs for her shroud and her e1. And your life will be a lot easier.
I both play akali and play against her. When you know her weaknesses, they are REALLY glaring.
Akali can't move away from a very small area when she is doing that.
@@skelet8337 Shaco's Q cooldown is high as fuck what the hell are you talking about. Shaco damage is also shit - he can't instakill people unless extremely fed.
Increase counter-play, make control wards invisible unless they're detecting an invisible opponent or ward, vastly increase the cool down on steath abilities, lower cd on sweeper etc. something along those lines i think would work great in reducing the annoyance of stealth.
Teemo is the only stealth I like, but because he has been powercreeped away from the game, so he can has a broken mechanic if he want (even if he can't move during his stealth (except in bush)).
his stealth is really bad.
like, its really badly designed.
@@owo4470 It really isnt badly designed. It is actually well done. He can prepare ambush and has to commit to it. And people have way more counter play against it than against Kha invis or akali invis.
Dota 2 already solved this problem by adding dust to the game. For those uninitiated, dust is a consumable that reveals everyone around you for about 10 seconds. Adding counterplay to interesting mechanics is always a better solution then removing them.
Yeah, if that mechanics can have universal solution, like you mentioned.
I just wish there is a item that can help you fight against invisibility. ( not: While Oracle Lens do give red outline against stealth enemies still you can't auto attack or use your point and click abilities )
id say oracle should give true sight not the laggy red siluete
Twitch has the same burst as evelynn but he doesn’t need something like her W to make it work. There is also no indication (like Pyke) to say if he is nearby. That’s why he is the most unbalanced stealth person in the game to me
When did you think eve needs W to kill someone? Only if its a tank or she fell behing, because all I see when I play against evelynns is me and my allies getting oneshot from her without even needing W, because she has so much scaling in Q she actually doesn't need any other skill and it actually helps the enemy to run away.
That’s only really with his ultimate use, and the range where you can see twitch is actually larger than most other champions that use the stealth mechanic. It’s also not true stealth, like shacos. So he is revealed when close.
@@Danielzoz for her to 100 to 0 you she needs the w unless you have no defensive stats. and i dont mean whole items. a bruiser with some extra health can take her damage and not die while she isnt ahead
@@periklisperperis6868 I was 6/1 with quinn mid. Had a ShieldBow, mr boots and building night edge, she was 1/3 and still 100-0 me while I was charmed. Balanced huh? Literally didn't move. She used W, but she shouldn't be able to kill me with the items I had.
@@Danielzoz she is a champion meant to counter you and i dont know if you ppl realise score doesnt mean she doesnt have items. like cmon
Plot twist: everybody just has PTSD from hearing a rogue come out of stealth in WoW
I think akali’s stealth is more unbalanced as she has many other tools to “stay safe”. E away, or to someone if less threatening, and double r dashes. Her kit is so overloaded its kinda insane. Sure she takes some skill, but ur rewarded wayy too much for playing her a couple games
I just think abilities where you can be on top of the person and not see them, like Akali’s smokescreen are very annoying
If the Akali is a master, it is very unlikely to kill her as a squishy champion.
i just think all stealth and invisible things should be revealed by pink wards. Like old akali W
Yeah, considering the fact that you can only buy 2 at a time and they cost 75g, I don't think it would be unhealthy for it to reveal everything. Especially because you can only place 1 at a time so you'd have to choose if you want to use it during a fight to see Akali or if you want to use it to gain actual vision or deny vision for ganks. And lets be honest, the fact that it *could* be used this way isn't going to make that many people actually buy and use pink wards more often in solo queue.
Nope
Remember the time when oracle elixir existed, Akali was a troll pick in Aram
That just dumb and frustrating when an item straight up remove you from the game
@@miki_mochi so basically revert vision. You can't have the new oracle and pink ward in the game.
@@angpham941 Oh.... You mean like some champions can remove others from the game, by their kit being direct counter?
There are still trollpicks in aram. Like udyr, even new one. xD
@@fuergrissaostdruaka2895 You can. Oracle being free and pink ward costing money.
And he forget to said that most stealth champ have a dash or a jump or a blink
I’m so glad u mentioned dudkblade and a lichbane pen boots sona is very threatening
Talon has infinite escape + stealth, Kha Zix has his E to escape + stealth, le blanc can escape, Akali can dash with ult and escape with W, Akshan can just E away. Yep, all super vulnerable without stealth
Camouflage's counterplay is a lot better than the pure stealth given to some champions. Counterplay against Akali, for instance, holy shit good luck if it's a good Akali.
9:37
"vision prevents you from seeing"
~Some monk named lee sin
As a doctor mundo one trick i approve of this message
The problem with Evelyn is that her camo is nigh-permanent, you never know where she is and she doesn’t half to go through the jungle to gank you. The only counterplay to a good eve is to stay under tower all game.
Or smart pink ward placement.
Evelynn has exactly 2 things going for her: stealth and damage. Pink replaces her camo if placed right, and tankiness will stop her damage. If she falls behind, she has only a cc that tales 4 seconds to prime then tattles on your position to have any edge
@@hellfrozenphoenix13 so you pink river, you survive one gank,
What happens when she walks into lane from your opponent’s tower? You can’t pink that and, in the end while she is invis it is a CONSTANT GLOBAL threat of being 2v1’d. Just about any engagement could immediately turn on you because, for all you know she IS there waiting for a free kill.
@@hellfrozenphoenix13 the problem is that, in reality your best counterplay is the eve being bad and messing up or playing passive
Ward eve jungle camps
Eve is one of the worst champions in the game. Being a good Eve takes a shitload of training (I could never do it) and even so she get's outdamage by a lot of champions and can get destroyed by any semi-organized teamplay. She is also very easy to invade.
The issue with stealth is the champions that have it, stealth give you protección from point and click (which is needed and healthy for the game, as counter play is needed), the logical counter play is skill shots as those still hit the target, but with the champions having stealth are high mobile you are virtually removing that as a weakness too and that’s creating the problem, as you remove the counter play of the mechanic, at the same time assassins are vulnerable to CC specially point and click, removing that weakness too, as you mention at the latest part of the video, I don’t consider stealth a bad mechanic, but the champions that get it should probably have another defense instead of this one
Or just work towards removing point click. Because by your logic only champs with stealth have counter play against pointclick. And then you hit another issues... Pointclick being useless against stealth and not having counter play against stealth
holy shit Vars your an amazing youtuber. Every 2 days I see a new video that is so well edited it looks like it took you a week. How are you managing to do it ???
There should just be something like dust in DotA 2; a consumable that reveals stealthed units in a targeted area.
Maybe there should be a downside for turning invisible like a decrease in movement speed or something similar as @MANDRO says even using counters against them would be evenly helpful but the problem is the counter has to be an ability which is unfair . There is a downside to it creating imbalances so they should introduce a new item which should be available for every legend.
Now imagine if lux's W (previously named prismatic wave, which gave aoe stealth to allies) is still in this game today
wait wut
Senna E-
Like you said a Game of information, and even when I ward a Eve just ran me down, and I can only place 1 Pink Ward.
To me it is so frustrating because not only do the Champs have stealth, no, they are mostly assasins too, the other class I hate in league.
I would wish it gets removed, because it is so frustrating to play against. And since the rework of it, I can't remeber who I can see with Pink Wards and who don't what takes even more Information away.
Another banger video from vars
Stealth can be frustrating but abilities still hit you
And personally i get way more tilted when i see an untargetable fish jumping around or an unstoppable duellist that throws your stuns back at you
But even though im petty with my opinions on champs, i do think most champs have counterplay, say except for the obviously unbalanced
The main problem I have with Stealth is that Stealthed units are untargetable for Point-and-Click abilities. If a champion goes invisible, you cant cast abilities like Veigar's Primordial Burst or Teemo's Blinding Dart. You can't use auto-attacks either, greatly weakening champions whose main source of damage is related to AAs, such as Xayah, Draven, Kalista and Twisted Fate.
lets not forget that everyone has untargetable because of stopwatch
@@kameksapprentice9416 yes but on the other hand those abilities have no other counter than stealth and untargability
Its just a stat checker then whoever has more stats wins that sure as hell isnt fun
Stealth is ok if it's in their kit. What's not ok is giving all champs access to it with duskblade.
Well, isn't it unfair when only certain champs has stealth? So to make it 'not unfair', just give everyone the option to gain stealth. :D
@@johnpauljonesisabadass8134 5 year old timmy talon main
@@johnpauljonesisabadass8134 as i've said, stealth is ok, so it's not unfair.
@@ravensiIva OG dota players god LoL players are so soft...
@@ANTSEMUT1 ok and?
I would like to see a change with sweepers that makes stealthed enemies targetable. The team has to do a trade-off then of not only using sweeper's cooldown to kill a stealthed champion in a fight but also removes their ability to acquire vision through warding if more people get sweepers than the other trinket options.
disputes on favourable arguments to stealth:
1. Champs only have that as a defensive/ outplay tool.
-Have u factored in the Ult on Evelyn? or her charm?
-Have u factored in Draktar on Yi, wich also has intargetability with his Q and damage reduction and heal with his W?
-Have u factored in the jumps on Kha, which resets at every asist?
-Have u factored in the 3 milion dashes Akali can do with her kit
-Have u factored in the AOE root on Senna's W?
-Have u factored in the W dash/stun on Viego's kit, or the reseteable R dash? not to mention his lifesteal/untargetability/dash combo on pasive?
-There isnt a problem with stealth perse, there is a problem tho with stealth on unbalanced (bad designed) champs. Twitch has stealth, but the moment he shows up, twitch goes boom. If his team doesnt protect him, he is dead, he has no scape. Shaco, even tho having stealth is so hard to master that only OTP can really abuse his kit and take advantage of that hability, otherwise, he is dead. Stealth on teemo is almos a gimmicky thing, not even to take in count.
But the stealth on the champs mentioned earlier are just unnecesary and make their kit overloaded. I have to insist, is not that stealth is bad in the game, but giving it to champs that are just not well designed is what makes it so rage inducent.
Should max health true damage be removed?
True damage is becoming too prevalent in the game. It used to be a source of damage that very few champions had and that made them work well in certain situations. Now anyone can buy true dmg or percent hp dmg, really cucking those who specialized in that dmh type.
@@Shaathurray really?
i can only think of 2 characters with max health true dmg
and thats pretty much cho(albeit his own hp) and gwens q centre
@@owo4470 Vayne. How can you forget any tank toplanes nightmare?
@@owo4470 vel koz has true dmg on his passive. He was great to take into tank matchups if he has a frobtline to peel for him. But why do that when rift maker is a thing 🤷🏻♀️
@@owo4470 also i was just referring to tru dmg in general not a special type of tru dmg. Do like, vel, vayne darius garen cho pyke. Like i can see why theyd want to make it more readily available but allowing anyone to have tru dmg or %ho dmg is dumb. Really really puts tanks on the back end of things
Just bring back pink wards revealing stealth. Invis had actual counterplay before they removed it
something I would kinda like is to see an item kinda like the ward storing item for supports, nobody seems to buy it ever but maybe if it made it so that you would be able to place a controllward with extra range and its able to store two of theese, the item would be able to detect camo targets as usual and maybe reveal stealth targets like akalis W did after its rework (without showing stealth targets on the map) that would allow champs like shaco who heavily rely on their stealth still be able to use it unless the enemy is very aware and more heavily counter champs like eve who would have to gank from another angle, sense you would only be able to place one of theese, meaning everyone would still have options but it allso enables some form of counterplay.
you’ve got a really pleasant voice. thanks for uploading :)
I think dota2 has a good answer for this since there are items like the dust of appearance that slow and reveals invis units for a while and gem of true sight that basically turns u into a living ward bu letting u see invis units. Maybe it's too much since in dota2 u can buy items that make u invis but something like those would be neat.
"In Akali's case she can stay invisible on her giant smokey donut" LMAO
Generally champions with spammable stealth have to use it well because usually they don't have many more defensive tools. Then there's Akali, with her stealth, oneshot potential (the best defense is a great offense) and multiple dashes.
I don't know why but the dr.mundo onechamp part is just too funny
ok but Viego can easily f with some people with his E. OOOOhhh is he here or is he there!!!! You'll never know
Get away from the cloud when he does that
@@letsrank9349 also since it's not a circular area you can throw skillshots and have a better chance at revealing him.
@@letsrank9349 Just give up drags baron 5head
Is he here, or there? nope, he just left and is tp backdooring your inhib (it doesn't have much vision)
The only reason I don't complain bc I auto fill main him and Kayle, the mind game is stupidly fun, and I like the lore
Im old enough to remenber that potion that allow you to see all stealth units(wards and champs) they should reinstate that again.
then champions like akali, khazix, vayne, kaisa would practically be sitting ducks.
they rely on their invisibility to reposition and ensure that theyre alive, and countering invisibility is way easier than countering stopwatches lol.
I didn’t realise you got so few comments on your videos...
Gonna comment on every video for the engagement algorithms. And like as many comments as i can read whilst watching.
Random Question that I may be completely wrong to but was the outro song from Spectrobes?
Stealth would have been fine if they made some counter items like Gem of Trusesight in Dota.
True sight Wards
Since you made a "Perfectly designed" video, can we get some badly designed champions? Or at least the ones people want to be deleted, like our favorite cat Yuumi.
In tearms of camo eve NEEDS it to even get close to her target, she doesn't have gap closers like rengar or attack range like twitch. Her only dash is 200 range, veigo's autos are longer than that. If she wants to assassinate someone, she can do 3 things, or 4 if you have 10+ stacks of mejais. She can use her W and hit with q. This has the downside to giving where she is away and has an arrow pointing to where she is when the charm procs. The second thing she can do is stand somewhere or walk to where her opponent is without using charm. This allows her take advantage of poor reaction time. Of course if someone is expecting it or just barely lives they can maybe term the fight. The 3rd option is to have an ally CC them. And then with Mejais at 10+ stacks you can use that MS to case down a target.
I think that invis that can be used inside of combat is the more controversial than outside of combat, also I think the worst invis ability is shaco's Q because it also gives him a teleport/movement that can be used to get over walls so you can never properly ward against him in solo Q.
You can also TP/Baron recall with it. I don't think is OP or anything, is actually really cool and somewhat skilled, but is really funny.
shaco has no other mobility than that, + the champ is fkn squishy and not that bursty (unless ahead) Akali and Qiyana are far worse
as a mage and marksman main, I actually have never thought invisibility was unhealthy for the game.
Are you even playing league? Like a yi going into alfa strike then straight into duskblade invisibility then again alfa strike is everything but healthy.
@@imrem2872 that's cause he is not suppose to have access to that mechanic. If anything, the problem lies within duskblade, not invisibility itself
@@minhchinhhoang7195 no? The issue is the invisibility wether is comes from item or not lol
@@plantthug9253 The thing is normally invisibility grants champions with the ability to gap close on enemies without some sort of dash or blink, meaning that it gives you the privacy to do whatever you want ONLY BEFORE YOU EXPOSE YOURSELF. Those champs expose themselve once they decide to strike so you can react, duskblade was a whole other thing - it grants you with invisibility whenever you get a kill which make it harder for people to pin you down. That's like 2 different things completely. But let's leave Akali's shroud aside cause that shit is just not okay lol
@@plantthug9253 take eve for example once she reveals herself and can't get out of combat, she will not be able to go invis again and for a champ with 0 range like that if the enemies see you, theorically u shouldnt be able to do anything so invisible is not the problem, but rather how it is applied to a certain situation that makes it unhealthy
I would like to see more abilities that can reveal champions and maybe even gain true sight of a champion for a second or two. I feel like this mechanic isn't being used a lot and only exists in a very few champions like Lulu, Ashe, or Swain for example. It is pretty powerful ngl, but at least a single target reveal would be neat to see more of.
6:00 what do you mean by akali only has her W do rely on fights ? she has like 3 dashes :/
Theme there's Pyke telling you he's there with fins
all stealth champ i just made
pass: Shadow Blade: While unseen heals 15-75 +%AP based on lv per sec, upon reveal next aa with in 4 sec does 5 + (2+lv)*3 + 20% AD bonus dmg (not sure if champ should be melee(Q,W,E from melee champs) or ranged(R based on traps from ranged champs) an not many ranged AD assassin, so could make ranged an add *3 if aa within 125 pass*3dmg) (could add *3 vs monster), champion takedowns grant invisibilty for 1 sec
Q: shaco Q: Decieving Knife:
ACTIVE: becomes invisible for a few seconds, and after a 0.125-second delay, blinks to the target location.
INVISIBILITY DURATION:
2.5 / 2.75 / 3 / 3.25 / 3.5
After breaking the invisibility, next basic attack within 0.25 seconds deals bonus physical damage. The damage is affected by critical strike modifiers.
PHYSICAL DAMAGE:
25 / 35 / 45 / 55 / 65 (+ 25% bonus AD)
invisibility breaks when uses a basic attack
W: Qiyana Q: Shadow Wrath:
ACTIVE:hurls blade in the target direction, detonating in a line upon colliding with an enemy or reaching maximum range
Enemies struck by the blade are dealt physical damage, reduced to 75% against subsequent units beyond the closest.
PHYSICAL DAMAGE:»
60 / 85 / 110 / 135 / 160 (+ 90% bonus AD)
The blade raises a grass trail behind that travels forth, lasting for 3.5 seconds and granting invisibility and 20% bonus movement speed until attacks or exits the trail, basic attacks will break the invisibility and prevent from entering it for 1 − 0.625 (based on minutes) seconds, refreshing on subsequent attacks.
E: Talon R: Hidden Blade Assault:
ACTIVE: disperses a ring of blades around him, dealing physical damage to nearby enemies and gaining invisibility and bonus movement speed for up to 2.5 seconds.
PHYSICAL DAMAGE:»
90/105/120/135/150 (+ 100% bonus AD)
BONUS MOVEMENT SPEED:
10/25/40/55/70%
Hidden Blade Assault can be recast after 1 second within the duration, and does so automatically after the duration or if emerges from invisibility.
RECAST: ends Hidden Blade Assault, breaking invisibility and converging the blades to his location, dealing the same physical damage to enemies they pass through. Breaking invisibility with a basic attack causes the blades to converge to the target instead.
R: Shadow Knife Trap: stores a trap , 2/3/4 last 40 sec, 75 mana + 1 charge, recharge 35/25/20
places trap at target location becomes stealthed and armed after 1 sec. launches ring of knives upon enemy contact dealing magic dmg.
then stays acvtive for up to 5 sec, while active launches exploding poison knives every .5 sec dealing magic dmg on impact an additional dmg over 4 sec while slowing
Appear MAGIC DAMAGE:»
140 / 200 / 260 (+ 120% AD) (+ 100% AP)
active Dmg
30 / 40 / 50 + 10% AP
tick dmg
20 / 25 / 30 + 5% AP
slow
30/40/50%
You overlooked what I consider to be the most important point. Even if invisibility is balanced at higher skill levels, it is horribly unbalanced in low silver and below. The invisible player has to press their ability key and walk into any lane the opponents push up. The opponent has to have the foresight to get the wave state under their own tower, ward effectively, use oracle lens and such. The counter play requires way more mastery of game mechanics and awareness than the invisibility does!
It is only controversial when it's on an in-game item, that you can buy. Specifically "Dusk Blade"
Yeah honestly it isn't that bad on champions who have their kit designed around stealth, but when champions who weren't designed to have stealth get it, it gets problematic
For me the most annoying invisibility is the one from Shaco. I mean, he has it in two habilities, and one is not the ultimate. Besides, the duration of the same increases a lot. And for what i know is really broken in aram because riot took out the true sight to just wait to cannon wave (which longs nothing bc everyone focus the cannon). IMO invisibility should be removed but if it is not, it should be fixed to be a really conditional (or risky ) action to consider, and not just a spam like shaco or akali invisibility
his ult isnt an invisibility... its untargetability...
It'd be interesting to see a full tank with an Inv mechanic (not camouflage) One of the most frustrating things to me about Inv is the fact that is almost always on One Shot Champs ( Kha, Shaco) and there is also Eve, Twitch and Rengar, that although you could see them, they will always see you first, so THEY get to decide if they want to take the fight or not.
This creates a very toxic interaction where the champion with the stealth mechanic is overloaded with the power of decision while the target can only react AFTER the stealth champion decided to make their move.
Think of LB and Zed. Although they also have 1 shot potential, you CAN see the shadow before the Zed gets there, and if he ults you, you KNOW where he is going to appear, same thing with LB, although she one-shots you, you see her flying for a fraction of a second before she can do anything, and if you are far away enough she might need to blow her Two dashes to get you. So there is Some potential to outplay the enemy before they manage to get their damage out.
The same is not true for Inv champs since they will ALWAYS have output advantage, meaning they would have already made the input for the attack/skill and will always land. And Camouflaged champions get a similar advantage albeit with a more telegraphed window of oportunity: Rat is squishy and has to get a few shots in before using his E burst, even needs to land her W if not super fed to one-shot you (although I think she should only be able to proc it from E or Q first cast, the repeated cast from her Q makes it almost trivial to land)
Maybe adding a small delay (0.25 seg for example) before being able to input certain skills. Say Shaco's E and Kha's Q. So they have to be out of stealth for 0.25 before they can use their burst, this might give the enemy champ a small but significant window to react to the enemy Champ. At least it wouldn't feel so BS as it's right now where you get burst down from stealth with no counterplay for it.
Also, maybe hard CC (stun, snare) could remove Inv, adding a much-needed counterplay for Inv with the removal of oracle years ago. If you manage to guess where the Inv champ is you should be rewarded for reading your opponent's movements in some way.
Edit. Another issue with the Stealth mechanic is that it's so powerful that it takes too much from the power budget of the champion. A lot of people say Eve wouldn't work without stealth, when in fact if you remove stealth you would have to introduce a new mechanic/Skill which may or may not be less frustrating to play against than stealth, and may or may not open up new ways to buff/nerf the champion. As with untargetability, the lack of counterplay is what really bothers me.
>With no Fog of War you can never be ganked
SoloQ: You understimate my power!
I play pike and I like to see how they react when I go camouflage and reappear it s a unique sensation
I don't mind invisibility on champions with a built-in stealth. Then, there is duskblade yi, who combines invisibility and untargetability...
as you said the problem with invisiblity is that u cant attack them with targeted spells and AA which is half of abilities
I once spent 3 solid minutes chasing a Qiyana back and forth on a brush as Tryndamere. She was 0/6. I died because I couldn't hit her due to her spammable invisibility and her team showed up. That's just broken as a counter pick. If your team does not have a lot of high damage skill shots, you're just done. Qiyana not only has high mobility, damage and cc. She also has spammable invisibility. Un-cool.
Just your regular friendly reminder that on PBE some number of patches a go there was a mechanic that allowed Akali to be revealed in her shroud if affected by immobilizing CC. But it never came to live servers despite it feeling actually fair to play against.
Longest invisibility in the game, by the way, at *7 seconds max rank* with the only drawback being limited to your big ol' donut. Next longest invisibilities? Two champs tie - Qiyana's brush Q and Shaco Q max rank - at *3.5 seconds each*.
If you somehow have a more frustrating invisibility than *Shaco*, the champ literally designed around being a frustrating experience to fight, then something is up.
I'm honestly surprised they haven't made the "stealth trapper" archetype by now. Someone (ideally support) who roams the map placing strategic traps and stealth while having very little up front damage and instead focusing on getting advantage through foresight and accurate predictions
A reworked stealth could be an option, and it could work with the idea of "someone is looking at me"
Its the idea of the stealthed champion that walks close to you that might "highten" your sences, the idea of "i realize someone is looking at me, but i cant see that person, so i am on the look out for it"
It might be a buff in visibility or an icon that becomes visible when the champ is really close to you
Wish Oracle lense making them targetable to attack. Would need to see ingame if thats balanced. But I think it would be worth to try out that new mechanic.
The way HotS does it is real nice. Basically, you can see stealthed characters' outlines very slightly whenever they move, think like Sweeper on a stealthed unit but less obvious. However, after staying still for like 2 seconds or whatever, they become fully invisible.
So kind of like light is bending around them, where you can see something's there due to a visual distortion, but only when it moves?
@@xxscrublordxxx5652 Yup! It's also for the first second or so when they stand still
The thing you failed to mention is when you hit an stealthed unit, it show a shimmer of them for a second. With that, and the multitude of counters towards stealth, I don't think they're as busted as untargetable. Invisibility is definitely more annoying than camouflage though.
There are two issues I have with stealth. First, vayne. Second, they don't leave stealth if they get hit like they do with camoflage. If you were to make it so that after .5s or so, any non-dot damage would kick them out of stealth
The only invisibility i have a problem with is Akali's. It lasts 8 bloody seconds, which allows her to completely avoid ganks (unless playing against her one and only counter Lee Sin), but more importantly she can literally zone out large area in teamfight as an assasin. Your adc can't get anywhere near that smoke cloud without getting deleted and she can just sit there and make your main dps completely useless, unless you have one of the few champions that can reveal her.
And this is the main issue with stealth - it has very little counterplay. In Dota there are multiple items to deal with stealth, most notable is Gem of True Sight, which does exactly what it says - gives true sight in a large area around you. However A) It doesn't give any stats, B) You have to sacrifice item slot to hold it and C)It drops on death, so it's mostly held by tanks. It also has long restock time (If someone buys a Gem it takes 10 minutes before anyone in the team can buy another one) so it's actually only bought when neccesary and it's only effective when it's holder is in the area.
League needs something like this. I'm not asking to bring back Oracle Elixir, that would defeat the purpose of stealth, but an item or trinket that's situationally good. Twisted Treeline had trinket - Arcane Sweeper - which granted vision of a nearby area for a few seconds and revealed traps. It could be repurposed to reveal invisibility, maybe as an item.
I think it's nice from a design perspective that the assassins have some kind of stealth while the fighters type have some kind of shield or protection to go all in no sneaky way
Btw i just wanted to say that you could say that with the Warwrick W(that you can see the bloodtrail even when they are invis)
Yes, either that or give EVERY character a method to get around it. Perhaps make oracle lens give enemy units targetability.
I think the it’s largely the jump scare that comes with these stealth champs just suddenly appearing and deleting you. I had a game as adc where the enemy rengar caused me to have a panic attack because he would ult, show his indicator on me and I knew I was gonna die and could do nothing about it. The feeling of being powerless was terrible
Plz tell you are new to moba....
it's fine that invisibility exist but right now one have very little to work around it. a simple example is the fact that something like ignite that specifically tells you that reveals the enemy, don't work with stealth ability (i'm aware that you still see a ghostlike figure moving but i can't still attack it) or the fact that even if they get hit or stunned they are still invisible. One would think that a flaming being would be quite visible or that if i ult akali with lissandra, i should be able to see i giant pillar for the duration of the spell. You can't really use it wrong and you can't get punished for using it. Camuflage is fine, it works more often in the macro of the game and not really in a fight so that's not really something to be so mad about but true stealth it's just wrong.
but input lag, latency, and reaction speed aside. having the experience to predict their moves and use good guess work to prepare your mouse and screen to their skills is what negates a lot of latency issues. simply by just hitting the spot they know is the next location.
I think the 2 big issues are
1) duskblade is giving champs that should not have stealth access to it.
2) riot makes counter play weak. Lifesteal is cheaper and gives more than grevious wounds. Damage give more than armr stops. Sweeper is expensive cd to spend just to know the general position.
By the start of the video my position was: stealth is the lest of the problems lol has to address. But the arguments against are really good.
ADC main : camouflage is healthy since there is counter to it (control ward) but the other one is troublesome.. maybe another control ward could be created 🤔 more expensive but gives true sight for a short period of time. So we would have the possibility to buy the normal control ward.. 75$ an the other one situationnal for.. 150-200-more? Used in a short period of time then it dissappears
Bit late but I feel camo is much more frustrating to deal with. Having a champion suddenly appear on you without you having any idea is completely unfun especially if they came from an area that you had warded. Invis is only temporary and unless it's on shaco/Akali it doesn't last long enough to be really annoying