Part Two: A Live Investigation Into The Sigma Male Subculture | BEHIND THE BASTARDS
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Part Two: A Live Investigation Into The Sigma Male Subculture | BEHIND THE BASTARDS
Robert is joined again by Jamie Loftus for an online investigation and continued discussion on the sigma male.
Original Air Date: February 25, 2021
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There’s a reason the History Channel has produced hundreds of documentaries about Hitler but only a few about Dwight D. Eisenhower. Bad guys (and gals) are eternally fascinating. Behind the Bastards dives in past the Cliffs Notes of the worst humans in history and exposes the bizarre realities of their lives. Listeners will learn about the young adult novels that helped Hitler form his monstrous ideology, the founder of Blackwater’s insane quest to build his own Air Force, the bizarre lives of the sons and daughters of dictators and Saddam Hussein’s side career as a trashy romance novelist.
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"I'm going to kegel so hard my holes close" is simultaneously the best and worst sentence I've heard in a long time
As a Gen Z person I can tell you that it was a long time before I learned that Sigma males weren’t a Ligma Balls Joke.
But they should be
You’re thinking of Sugma males, really easy mistake to make
@@athenaraines I love the Sugma Male Codex and its sequel, the Ligma Male Codex.
@@athenaraines sugma?
@@gosc111sugma balls
Love your takedowns of toxic masculinity. Just got done listening to this and the Dilbert episodes while sitting alone in my home office, playing Sid Meier's Civilization, so basically being a sigma male. :D Seriously though, I am fifty-four years old and grew up before the Internet, and all of these "sigma male affirmations" sound like what I told myself in middle school to console myself for not being popular. Spoiler alert: eventually I started socializing, discovered that I had a personality, had relationships, and even became a parent. Never thought of becoming a mass shooter.
It sounds like these Sigma Male courses are almost specifically targeting neurodivergent men who think that the alpha male shtick just isn't for them. It talks about being on the outside (neurodivergents usually feel like there is something that they just don't fit in society even if they don't know why), they are able to blend in with the alphas but aren't alphas (basic description of masking to fit in), lots of introversion bordering on avoidant personality disorder, and video game power fantasy to offer some sort of benefit to listening to all their crap. Like they say in the video, a different kind of toxic that says don't try to improve and correct the social problems, embrace the loneliness. They also do really want a relationship, they just think that sex is the first step in developing those relationships rather than a later step to advance it.
yeah i would totally agree! although the net may be thrown out wider than just them it is like honey for people who feel they dont fit in, which fits neurodivergent people pretty well if they dont have a supportive environment. Definitely a good point you made!
Was gonna say this too.
All that “can be a part of society and can do fine in society but often chooses to spend time away from it” bullshit is just describing masking and basic strategies for reducing autistic burnout.
It’s basically “what if manosphere movements preyed upon autistic men in a more blatant way”.
Pretty much my thoughts. It's autism. I am glad the crew recognized fairly early on that much of the sigma discussion is not worthy of derision. Violent or not, much of the "manosphere" is people who have deep deficiencies in emotional regulation and social capability desperately trying to make sense of a society that doesn't provide them any of the support or tools they need to become healthy, capable people. Fascism is capitalism redirecting justified economic indignation away from the ruling class and towards the "other," generally the poor and minorities. Similarly, much of the "manosphere" is the same capitalistic culture taking vulnerable men's already pattern-seeking neurodivergent tendencies and funneling their justified outrage at a lack of social support into a paradigm that can commodify that rage and redirect it at other groups that are actively seeking to fight against that exploitation.
I really don’t understand how John Wick could be seen as the archetype of the “sigma male”? He’s not a loner, he’s alone because he’s a recent widower who is trying to process his grief and everyone else he knows is connected to a world he tried desperately to leave behind.
i suspect some of the guys who want to imagine their isolation is super inevitable skip that part when they're doing a selfcomparison
@@ohnoagremlin well the whole thing is a fantasy so maybe they just think he looks cool?
@jranderson123 that's usually what it boils down to. Case in point: Tyler Durden. As someone who has Fight Club as one of their all time favorite movies, it's baffling how many people saw him as a protagonist
I get it. I mean, they're dumb, but I get the logic. John Wick speaks every language ever, but isn't chatty in any of them. He's not smooth. He doesn't really have the ability to smooth things out, or lead others, and that's why he ends up fighting the entire population of whatever city he's in that day. And that's the whole sigma thing in a nutshell: dudes who want to think of themselves as leaders and then have to explain why they don't have any leadership ability.
@@Durwagon Sigma aren't leaders. Alphas are leaders. Sigmas are trying to be Wolverine. Going "My way is one-track, bub. Sorry, not sorry." That's why can't get along with underappreciated Scotty Summers a.k.a. Cykes a.k.a. Cyclops.
Sigma male journal, day 97. Today's quarry is a desirable female I can see approaching with binoculars on a desert road. I will soon activate my Acme brand rocket skates, and prepare for acquisition. Let's hope my calculations were not in error, like last time. Never again will I buy a giant slingshot from the Acme corporation. Nope, I have learned my lesson there.
When you're reading the codex's I can't help but think of the way Mac sounds on Always Sunny when reading the rules of "Ass Kickers United". "An ass kicker must avoid thin mints"
Not related to this video but I noticed you mentioned you worked for cracked as the picture guy in the Dilbert episode. I just wanted to say when I discovered cracked in HS in 2009 I was immediately hooked. Crushed through the entire backlog of content, and continued to read daily until probably 2017-2018, needless to say it was very formative to my sense of humor and especially the one off jokes in the captions that you more than likely wrote. Just wanted to say thank you for the years of entertainment, it was a much needed escape for the most difficult years of my life. There will truly never be anything like it.
While this non on. Got ppl gain talent nonsense
Evans was absolutely a core part of the skeleton of the humor that made Cracked so successful at that time. that he grew into a badass and a hero afterwards was a pleasant surprise.
@@xXluluchanelXx I deeply miss after hours
Listening to the "Codex" and remembering the quiet, "intellectual" awkward teen I was and shuddering. "There, but for the grace of god, go I..."
The Sigma stuff is fascinating to me because it claims to espouse this rebel individuality and proactive decisiveness. However, what it seems to cultivate is an incredibly passive and stagnant sense of personal growth. If you're a Sigma, you don't have to change ANYTHING about yourself EVER.
You don't have to go outside your comfort zone to meet people. Your quiet and mysterious personality will draw them towards you.
You could be a leader, probably a great one. You just prefer to let other, louder people step up and do it.
You seek a partner with her own sense of independence and self sufficiency. That means you don't have to put any work into the relationship.
The most seductive ideologies are the ones where you don't have to change anything to fit in. You're perfect as you are. It's everybody else that has the problem.
Its just them being in denial about their absolute lack of a personality and general inability to connect with human beings in person
Robert describes the type of person to fall for that stuff very well because, well, i am that type of person. And when i started hearing the sigma rhetoric myself i felt aligned in a way but i always knew that alpha beta shit was dumb as hell but that sigma idea almost roped me in.
I felt like i would fall in love too quick and become overattached and/or scared someone else would get in a relationship with who I was pursuing (probably because that happened, only once...) and i didnt understand that dynamic and how that inadvertantly pushed women away from me when i was actually looking for a real, steady, meaningful relationship. Its too easy of a trap to fall into for men like myself and one that im still recovering from. Really good analysis on all fronts on this series so far I love it
The chills I got down my spine when I heard that Dutch accent in the video at 39:30, man, it's a real 'oh no they're near me' kind of feeling (I live in Belgium where they speak Dutch).
Basically, the PUA/redpill guys realised that most of their audience are just lonely nerds who will never, ever be the stereotypical "alpha", so they made up this new "sigma" nonsense, where the lonely nerds are the REAL alphas. If you keep telling the nerds to be fratboy gigachads, they might give up and stop watching your channel, but if you tell them to just sit around watching anime because "they don't care about society's rules", well, that's just music to your audience's ears!
Truly nothing better encapsulates what it is to be a Sigma male like having a male period.
It’s crazy they haven’t mentioned character classes in games yet. Sigma male is ranger, alpha is tank, beta healer etc etc. Clearly where this nonsense comes from.
No no, those are introduced in sub-groups and are color coded.
Sigma Blues are more poetic than scientific; Sigma Reds are aloof Jocks; Sigma Clear is low fat
That's where it's from? I thought, that terminology derived from lupine pornographic prose.
Beta is probably DPS. Omega is healer.
Well. Supposedly. Healers and supports are so often the most skilled players, oof.
I'm so glad to have grown up before childhood was so online. I mean, we still had this BS, but it wasn't anything that watching The Breakfast Club a few times wouldn't fix
This sigma male thing feels like ‘the gift’ for lonely young men
The only correct answer to someone saying “I’m a sigma male,” is to say, “you’re a smegma male? I heard some girls were into that that but…”
The thought of Robert gesturing with his knife at these two ladies, and not knowing because...you know....podcast.
I love so much how the original version had Alpha/Beta/Gamma AND Delta males but somehow we ended up with Alpha/Beta/Sigma. Some guys can't handle 4 options I guess.
it’s also funny because two of them are basically the same option
@@trystero1729 No, Sigma is totally different, because, uh....
Gamma and Delta both suffer from the fact that they sound cooler than beta male even though they're supposed to be worse so these people go with beta as the insult.
"A man who exists outside of the hierarchy but is also somehow equal to the highest rung of it" smacks so much of a pouting child who says things like "I'm not gonna do that thing! It's stupid and it's for babies, but if I did, I'd be the best in the world at it!" It's fascinatingly transparent in its juvenile logic. It's so precious. "The Sigma Male COULD dominate everything and everyone, but they... just don't, because they don't feel like it. They're the best at everything, but they're too good to even do them. Every woman wants a sigma male, and if they think they don't, they're defective."
"I dont want to make people better. I just want to make them numb."
I think a combination of innate competitive instincts and a life focused largely on fictional stories leads to this trap. Fantasy worlds always have heroes who are special and chosen in some way. When young men grow up in these fantasy worlds at the cost of real-world experience, many come to see reality as a place where either you are the special boy with a great destiny who will get the perfect girl in the end, or you are a side character who begs the heroes for help.
In modern society it's incredibly easy to compare anything you do to the best in the world. Humanity's deep-seated need to feel special is at odds with the reality that super-heroes do not exist, and that everyone is just randomly on many places on many different bell-curves. Even the most capable people are not really that far removed from average. In older societies with more limited communication it was far easier to be the best at something. So although I think this kind of catch-22 of everyone wanting to be the special one in the stories has been a thing in society forever, I think the invention of the internet combined with a turning inward of society has super-charged it.
If only realistic stories of heroism--of regular, random, fallible people doing the best they can to help in times of need--had the same resonance in our cultural sensibilities.
I’m so happy I nailed my prediction about John Alexander’s speciality
The background dialogue and music playing in those mano-sphere videos is downright fucking unbearable. Like, if I was placed in a isolation cell with that stuff playing 24/7, I'd lose my mind rather quickly.
I feel the reconditioning videos are more like sigma hypno videos.
A Codex is usually some kind of collection of stories or principles or what have you in a written, non-book form. I think nowadays it's often used as a fancy term meaning "big book o' rules" or "big book o' stories" so our friend is kind of trying very hard to sound impressive.
honestly, our friend's description of the Sigma male sounds a lot like me, but it's also written with that kind of horoscopic blandspeak that recontextualizes incidental traits or inconsistent flaws as either strengths or defining features that make one unique. it's great for self confidence but not so good for growth, and its conceit is implicitly based around the idea that You, the meek/anxious/paranoid/lonely/isolated/antisocial/weirdindividual, are, in fact, The Coolest Motherfucker in The Room. now, don't get me wrong, I *am* the Coolest Motherfucker in The Room--not because or in spite of my flaws, but because I understand how to conceive of those flaws as aspects of my personhood and personality. they're things that I have taken the time to try to master, or at least learn to live in harmony with while still leaving myself open to growth or change.
these manosphere things can definitely help you grow more confident, but that confidence often comes at the expense of Something Important. it can lead to viewing other people as cogs you can grease, or code that you can hack. people are more complicated than that, and to a lot of people that's scary. but it doesn't have to be, guys. once you remember the inherent personhood of those around you, it can make things so much better. you realize that you can actually have a conversation with....anyone. that being interested in others as *People* will not only make others like you, but also strengthen your appreciation for others while growing your ability to connect with them as persons.
What I think really helped me is this: in this big ol' universe, you are alive, right now. what you do with your time *is* up to you. thats not a curse; it's a blessing. life may get you down, it might kick you on the ground, knock your teeth in, smash your ribs, and break every bone in your body, but it's not over until you give in. you can always get back up and keep going. and there are people who care. and when it's tough, reach out. people are actually a lot better than you think. you don't have to do this alone. there is strength in reliance on others.
every day is a gift: that's why it's called The Present ;)
ligma males
8:39 I am so pissed off that Sigma men got a codex before leagues of Votaan even for their full army. Games workshop hates us #shortkings
Sometimes I feel that the invention of the Internet is the great filter that inevitably destroys all nascent star-faring civilizations.
Maybe the codex is crap as a self-selection thing? Make it bad enough that anyone you can't grift will bounce off it before page 3.
"I'm not an Alpha male & not a Beta male. I'm somewhere in between." Says the author who has no understanding of how the Greek alphabet works.
Sounds like somebody didn't learn their ASB's
I'm an omega male, the highest letter, therefore, the highest person. 😁
I feel SO WEIRD hearing that guided meditation/reprogramming thing! The music and his voice are hitting some ASMR button in my brain, against my will, and then I snap out of it and realize the toxic broader context. It’s such visceral cognitive dissonance.
I hope that guy gets out of this weird grift and starts using his powers for good, by making normal ASMR/guided meditation content. Or at least finds a healthier niche, like consensual hypno or something
Didn't realize Matt taibbi was doing sigma male ASMR
As near as i can tell, there are two threads to the sigma bullshit. One is noticing the existence of men who don't do what the alpha-beta-delta hierarchy says they should do, they're not dominating, they're not posturing in traditionally masculine ways, and yet women seem to want them anyway. Could this be a sign that our pyramid of sexual desirability is bullshit and women don't always want the things we thought they wanted? Nahhh, couldn't be that, must just be that there's another kind of man we didn't describe yet.
The second feels very much related to a passage of pride and prejudice i recall where a lady declares that her appreciation for music is so good that, had she ever bothered to learn to play, she would totally be a master musician. There's a strong element of sigma logic that sounds like "the pyramid totally works except it doesn't because i am actually the super special Best Boy, more alpha than alpha, and if the women ever bothered to notice me they would be all over me. It's their fault if they haven't noticed me yet, but they will, just you wait. I don't have to do lift a finger to connect to the kind of partner i want, I can just wait for her to be dropped unceremoniously into my lap." And sure, self acceptance isn't bad, i'm all for finding ways forward that allow you to validate yourself instead of using women as tools...but also maybe consider painting women as something more than prizes in your personal quest?
Don't forget Tom Shelby and a whole slew of other fictional characters that get slow-mo shorts with the same "badass" music.
They just trying an INT/DEX build hahahaha
57:31 the duality of man.
Oh no my man doesn't even know the term Ronin but he's doing ASMR about it 🤭
RIP Pee-Wee Herman, famously name-dropped in this episode
What I mostly got from this is that Sigma males are basically every edgy 12 year old boys first D&D character.
We live in a world of pyramids and skulls... and, occasionally, wolves.
"I am an introvert and now will explain why I am better than you because of it." Ugh.
PSA - The correct number of wolves to have in you is 0.
If you have more than this number either seek immediate medical attention, or enjoy your furry con.
PSA - Be careful with werewolves. Do not attempt to put all 14 inside you at once.
Dr Frankenstein was the real monster.
You know what happens when these guys realize this Sigma stuff doesn't work? That's when they take the Black Pill! Wild stuff, check it out
When do they take the green pill? The purple pill? The orange pill?
There are no pills
26:35 Amiga Males? I'm more of a ZX Spectrum Male gal myself
As an assertive Commodore 64 male, I can tell you right now that I'm capable of making some pretty horrifying grinding noises.
I feel like the sigma male idea is a sort of reactionary movement coming out of the deeply problematic blaming of all one's problems (and in particular the lack of success in relationships) on women described in the first part, seeing that that clearly isn't it, but not quite being able to understand the complex reality of what really does cause said problems.
Capitalism. It's not actually complex, it's just hard to admit.
I'm only 12 minutes in and Jesus Christ the writing 😂😂😂😂
Show us the knife, Robert,
“Sigmas” are people who want to be alphas, but in a Gamer way. They aren’t bold or daring but they delude themselves into thinking they didn’t spec into that character build, but the Rogue build is just as good. It’s like a stoic hooded figure that sits in the corner of the medieval tavern quietly judging people exuding coolness so that the rest of his table is full of bitches fighting over his attention. It’s really sad but also the funniest kind of cope.
I consider myself a ligma male
"What happens when none of this works?" They blame feminism, of course.
Oh crap, I have an idea to make some money.
Sounds very similar to Zodiac signs.
The sigma male stuff sounds like what I'd give my twelve-year-old son if they'd gone too deep into the alpha/omega crap....more like the start of an off-ramp than the opening of a rabbit hole, I guess.
I'm a double zeta male that means something great but I can't explain it without being paid up front for an expensive course or 20.
BroScience did a good breakdown of the sigma male... lol his channel is hilarious
Ok so yeah dude has a tumblr, but hasn't posted since 2014. The posts he does have? 0-1 note each.
Tumblr is a lot of things, but it is *not* for this guy.
When I'm being Sigma, I save my kinetic grasp to suck up things like Pharah's ultimate... Oh, wait, this isn't about Overwatch?? Oh.... Nevermind.
Those affirmations are for boring people who don't read books.
I mostly love this video but it's really unpleasant when you have the video playing in the background while you're talking at the same time.
they're using the AI voice in that vid you all are watching. It's AI generated nonsense.
I can't take any of the "sigma-alpha" male stuff seriously, because whenever I try my mind just jumps to Omegaverse. If you don't know what that is...please, for the love of God, don't look it up. If you do, I'm sorry.
I hate everything
Isn't I just need to hear you or memory test et you said nothing about being delusional I have shorty of memory working test but would if reported
I got so lucky when I rolled the dice on pick up artists so many years ago. While I recognise now some of it is problematic most of it centred around getting the basics right with hygiene and fashion, building self confidence, and a heavy emphasis on attraction over seduction. The line that was often repeated is cocky and funny. It was also made clear if the woman you're talking to is laughing and/ or smiling your doing it right. If she gets legit mad apologise immediately. It did touch on negging but it was hammered home that the goal was shocked laughter, and never attacking actual insecurities or tying to make the girl feel inferior. And being nice and thinking you are a nice guy are usually two very different things, and women will pick up on your BS right away so don't even bother. If you come across as the cheapest used car salesman all you achieve is putting everyone one edge around you. And lastly it's never about forcing anything, it's about creating opportunities for things to develop on their own.
Okay look. I am an AFAB nonbinary person, and hearing this Sigma Male nonsense is weirdly magnetic *because it speaks to my autistic experiences*. Like if I was AMAB and fifteen to twenty years younger, I could see myself falling right down this rabbit hole. The draw is that:
a) the list of "Sigma Male" traits is a good match for a list of positively-spun autistic traits, letting you feel good about yourself;
b) the use of the whole male hierarchy thing is basically saying "here is a cheat sheet for socialising with humans, this is how people work, it is a predictable system" which is like. GOD I woulda paid for that handbook as a kid;
c) "Alpha Male" manosphere nonsense is not actually super compatible with being autistic because you have to believe too many contradictory things and engage with Neurotypical Nonsense with other men.
In summary, "Sigma Male" may not be intended for autistic boys and men, but it sure as hell is a place for them to feel like a super special boy who can navigate socialising, dating, and success.
Bromo, no homo
ugh, it sounds like it was written by bad AI
Ah, Sigma Male. The bullshit male hierarchy equivalent of a whipped chihuahua laying on the floor screaming "I let you win!"
I keep getting "Sigma Male" memes via the eldritch CZcams algorithm & I can't understand why. I don't believe in that sh*t & I don't hate women! This podcast is the first video I've watched that actually explained the "Sigma" B.S. to me as well!