Thank you to show the applied pressure difference on Rad and Juiced. I have a Shimano Steps ebike and I was not sure how a cadence only bike work. Now I feel better to go with the Hyper Scorpion.
I think you explain it well. I decided to go with a torque sensor and I love it. Really encourages you to pedal. I get a lot more exercise than I would with a cadence sensor. I converted an existing bike with a TSDZ2 kit.
I made the mistake of watching review videos done by channels that I realize now are really more into pure electric propulsion than in getting real exercise. So when they'd note a bike had a cadence sensor, they'd express it as a negative, sure, but the tone was very much along the lines of a torque sensor being a diminishing returns nice-to-have. Got my first ebike with a cadence sensor and got rid of it in a week. Hated it. No matter the power setting, I always seemed to be either working too hard or (more often) too little.
Why there's not a million views on your stuff I don't know. It so hard to find this info anywhere until I found you. Thank you so much for what you do sir! I'm definitely interested in the Ripcurrent for my commuting and transport while photographing at race tracks.
Great video, explains exactly what what I thought were the difference with the two types. I want to still feel the pedal resistance while getting help from the motor when needed ie. pedaling up a hill or into a strong wind. A few years back I built a bike with a 750w Bafang mid drive. But after the first couple of pedal rotations it was all motor and no pedal resistance. It appears most of the reasonably priced torque sensor bikes have smaller amp/hr batteries, which I guess makes sense due to of the more personal effort used. Thanks for the video.
Thanks for the explanation! Juiced, Surface 604 and FLX bikes all offer torque sensing at a fair price. I'm sure many others will to as time and price keeps coming down. My next e-bike will have the torque sensor on it for sure.
Jasion uses torque sensors surprisingly. I got the EB5 and was shocked by how smooth the pedaling was and how I could get way more range due to how efficient torque sensors are.
Thanks for filming the comparison. There's a lot more choice out there since I first started using e-bikes but from what I gather go cadence if you have knees problems...
Actually that's a pretty good assessment. But more interestingly it depends on where the pedal crank is when you first start. Because if you were on an incline and you just had cadence sensing it might be more difficult depending on where the magnet is on the pedal crank initially. Once you have momentum I agree with your assessment. However I do think overall torque sensing is your better way because of what I just stated. Further if you have torque sensing set to its maximum it really would have very limited pressure on your knee. No matter what I like where your mind is have a great weekend!
Wonderful video. I fix hundreds of e-bikes per year and without a doubt, my older customers don't care for the torque sensors because you have to put in more effort. Cadence sensors are cheaper and make the job easier but they are more "disconnected". Nice explanation.
@@MarkSmith-js2puI’m an older guy who wants to ride a bike and not have the bike ride me. Torque sensors are much more available in 2024. If you want a cadence sensor bike, why not just get a motorcycle? Looking at all the videos, since the motor speed is totally controlled by what pedal assist level you are in, and it pushes to the speed no matter how hard you’re pedaling, I can’t see how you would ever get a speed in which you aren’t ghost pedaling, which is why I suggest a motorcycle…unless, I suppose, you’re riding bike trails where motorcycles aren’t allowed. For group rides, for instance, I would think you’d have a hard time keeping in your place since you are either having to pedal really hard or go to the next assist level, at which time, your bike might lurch ahead into the rider ahead of you. If you enjoy it, though, you do you.
One other interesting fun fact is with standard cadence sensing if you're at a standstill at a light and you have your front wheel turn and then you slowly crank the pedal that triggers the magnet over the sensor and you're at the highest level of pas then the bike is going to take off and do a circle that you're not prepared for and you'll fall down. I also had an instance where someone was helping me carry the rad Rover over a fence and he grabbed the pedal and triggered the sensor and it almost caused some pain and suffering for both him and me when that happens. So there's an entire safety issue I think also with standard cadence sensing versus torque sensing.
@@skeller61 I consider it a motorcycle. I pedal all the time, the effort is against the motor. I never ghost pedal anymore since the novelty of that wore off after a while. I use 4 and 5 if I’m on a bike lane in traffic I want to get out of. I ride it on the streets just like a cycle. I had a great 1986 Honda 1100 for quite awhile. I like to use the thumb throttle from a stop in traffic but rarely after that. On a typical commute I’m pedaling my cadence sensor against resistance and going around 15 mph. I dance with it😀
Good explanation and demo, thanks. I like a work out, and prefer torque, and set it how I like. Your cadence bike magnet disc has quite a wobble on it, probably makes no difference, but my OCD kicks in. Thanks again for taking the time to demonstrate.
If you look closely, that sensor is only engaging the motor when the bent part of the disk is at its closest to the sensor. You're probably not getting the sensor to pickup the other magnets that are bent away from it.
When I made the decision two years ago to add e-assist to my recumbent trike I had to make a couple of decisions as to what system to go with. The first choice was hub motor of mid-drive (mounts in the bottom bracket) motor. I made the decision to go with the mid-drive as it provided better performance (torque and using the existing gearing to multiply the motors assist) and ease of service when compared to a hub drive. That decision made the next one was a torque assist system (Tongsheng TSDZ2) or a cadence assist system (Bafang BBSHD). Both motors can be procured in 250 W, 500W, and 750W versions running on battery voltages of 36V, 48V, or 52V. After careful research between the two I went with the Tongsheng TSDZ2 as it did not require a shift sensor to stop the motor when shifting or to brake sensors to stop the motor when using the brakes. The torque assist is very similar to what you demonstrate in this video, pedal even slightly and you have assist cutting in immediately and when you stop pedaling the assist stops just as rapidly. The Bafang does not react to changes in your pedaling as rapidly and needs these to reduce damage to the drive train. With the Tongsheng the ride is very close to that experienced on an unassisted ride with the only difference being that your effort is being assisted by the level of assist you have chosen. Both units can have a throttle installed but I find that I have almost no use for it as the system works great without its use, I think it would come more into play if for some physical reason you couldn’t pedal and it would provide the power to get you home. The unit is easy to work on and as an example I changed out the torque sensing components internal to the motor (after 5,000 miles of use) in less than two hours which included removing the unit from the trike and reinstalling it when finished.
I use the analogy that a cadence sensor operates like an ON/OFF switch & a Torque Sensor operates like a volume control. Another benefit to the Torque Sensor controlled motors is that you can eliminate the Brake & Shift Interrupters since the motor rotation is proportional to the pressure on your pedals.
Great video. I feel exactly the same. Having bought one from Juiced (Cross Current S2) and Aventon Level Commuter, the latter has a cadence sensor, and it SUCKs compared to Juiced.
Yeah that's the biggest problem with cadence sensors, it's a very artificial bike feel and it does a lot of the work. I've ordered this tenways ebike I'm waiting for and it has torque sensing. It just feels so much better overall to have torque sensing. It's a major difference and it really makes the bike feel so much smarter plus you get more exercise.
Torque sensors are great when starting on a hill. You don't have to get a full revolution of the pedals before the motor kicks in like a cadence sensor.
Whilst my kit is either "on" or "off" as far as pedaling or throttle (according to 5 assist levels), I have been curious as to the technology available that makes it feel like you are super fit as the motor matches your power. It also makes changing gear more easy as the motor is less likely to pull on the chain when you want to reduce load to shift gear (if you have a mid-drive). To be honest I'd be fine with a more variable throttle and no pedal assist, but am interested in that "amplified fitness" feel and would like to try riding a torque sense bike even though I have no plans for getting another kit.
I own a BH Easy Motion Evo Jet with torque sensing w/ geared Dapu hub motor . I also have a Radwagon w/ cadence sensing gearless Shengyi. I also built a DIY middrive with torque sensing. While the BH Emotion Jet is smoother off the line. I think in the pedal effort is very similar to the Radwagon once I get going. Rad bikes seems to have better customer support than Juiced. I may be biased.
Great video. I can feel your connection thing. On torque you work less. And cadence you work harder. But It's doing the same thing. I rather have torque
I like that a cadence sensor allows you to pedal as much or as little as you like with torque you must pedal continuously. With a cadence and my level of fitness I can go on a 30-40 mile bike ride but with torque I would be limited.
There are also different types of cadance systems. Some are speed limited at each pas level (poor). And some are power limited at each pas level ( much better).
While your comparison is valid for its intent, one can't measure torque with no resistance on the rear wheel. It would have been valid if done on a trainer with a resisting roller. Think of it this way, if you were using a torque wrench on a bolt or nut that turned freely (never tightened), the wrench would never reach a setting. The torque sensor at the rear dropout has an electronic sender that measures the amount of twist on it. Look at it and you'll understand how it works. If the wheel is moving freely on the stand, there's nothing to measure. That said, I agree with the premise of your narrative.
There is resistance in the spinning wheel. Not a lot, but enough to prove his point. There's aerodynamic drag from the spokes as well as some drag from the bearings. If there were absolutely no resistance, the wheel would spin forever once you start it up.
Perhaps I can simplify. The torque sensor senses virtually no torque in your comparison because there is virtually no resistance to your turning the pedals.
Have you ever tried spinning your crank in a workstand? There's resistance. Is the motor putting out 750 watts in the video? No. It is, however, adding to what he's putting in. Believe me, I do know something of how these things work, with some experience in engineering. Plus I was was riding an electric bike with torque sensor back in the 1990s when most people had never even heard of e-bikes.
Turning the cranks on a workstand is the practically the same as coasting. The motor knows that there is not nearly enough torque being exerted to turn on the assist at anything other than negligible levels. You wouldn't want it to. Isn't that point of the comparison that the cadence sensor turns on the motor if the cranks are turning but the torque sensor applies assist only if there is some significant torque being sensed? And, of course on a workstand as you can see in the video, there is not nearly enough torque to apply any significant assist.
I'm not going to argue with you anymore. Knock yourself out. You're obviously writing all from theory rather than actual experience and I know it's impossible to convince anyone like that.
Thank you for doing this video. I am astonished that the cadence sensor took one full revolution of the crank before kicking in the motor. In my experience That’s not how a proper cadence sensor should work. On my bikes the cadence sensor engages the motor after the passage of a few magnets, about 60 to 90 degrees of rotation. Something is wrong. Juiced Bike are biased toward tongue sensors because that’s what they sell. Both type of sensors have their place depending on the preferences of the operator. Grin Technologies have very good papers explaining the pros and cons of both types of sensors. Again thanks for the side by side comparison. You might want to check your cadence sensor.
Thanks for the feedback and constructive criticism. The main part I was trying to convey is before I even got into e-bikes. I didn't have a clear understanding of how torque sensing could make such a dramatic difference in what you feel when you pedal. I can also say that nothing was manipulated to position one way or the other. It's more just to educate people that aren't familiar with torque sensing and the difference between that and pedal assist. Needless to say, this is a fairly hot topic and many people have strong opinions.
I could see the cheap, simple Cadence sensors paying off for less expensive fixed gear setups like the Super 73 Z, if they ever put pedal assist on it. But if I'm trying to muscle my way up the hill, or get quicker takeoff, then the more sophisticated Torque Sensor needs to understand how much Ooomph I'm putting in when working my up through a 7 speed casette drive
What do you mean, specifically, when you said that the Juiced CCS "totally changed your perspective" on "health and exercise?" Have you done any measurement of your personal energy expenditure on the two bikes? How does the CCS compare with conventional biking, in your experience?
That was addressed in a recent study at the University of Basel. They found that people on e-bikes were pretty much exerting themselves as much as people on regular bikes, but they were going faster and further, giving them more enjoyment. Quite simply, if they enjoy cycling more, they'll cycle more. Dispels the myth by the bike snobs that they're the only real cyclists. www.unibas.ch/en/News-Events/News/Uni-Research/Riding-an-e-bike-promotes-fitness-and-health---already-after-four-weeks.html
But then steep uphill happens and if u dont have trottle on tourge sensor the less pedal u give to the bike (which is cos the uphill is way too steep and u pedal less and less which equals to less and less power when u need the most), so in the end u end up jumping off the bike and push biking it. On caddnce sensor all u have to do to feel natural is to put it on lower PAS. Its annoying to start on caddnce sensor tough.
So basically... with cadence pedaling is like a throttle? you are just engaging throttle via pedal with your legs? Where as Torque just makes you feel like a superman? Is there a big cost difference? Because I see more cadence sensors on budget e-bikes.
Thanks so much for posting this video. With Juiced bikes (like the Scorpion and Hyper Scorpion), are you confident that you will get more true exercise if you get Torque sensing?
@@smidgelife so you're saying with a class 3 ebike rated at 28mph top speed with a torque sensor, to go 28mph it's basically just as hard as on a non ebike??? Makes zero sense then and defeats the purpose. I would like to be going 28 pedaling but having assistance from the motor I.e. it being fairly easy to maintain the 28mph. So this is not the case?
Thanks for the explanation. I am new to this so I am unsure about a lot. So with the Torque Sensor does that mean you are doing all the pedaling and all the work until you hit the 23 speed limit and if you push it harder by pedaling harder then you go beyond 23 and the TS kicks in, but until then you are pedaling all yourself with no motor assisting you?
No. torque sensing occurs throughout the various speeds of the bike. From zero to the top end, TS intelligently applies force to assist your pedaling. It's simply much smarter than cadence sensing with magnets and you feel it with each pedaling stroke. It is a difficult thing to convey that's why I made this video. If you're going to use your bike a lot I would definitely want this feature if you're a casual e-bike user, then it probably won't make a difference.
@@jamesgibson3242 minimal correct. Torque sensing will always make you need to apply a level of muscle. Cadence you just need to rotate the sensor to the next magnet.
So could someone please explain what the advantages would be of having a cadence based setup ? For example, someone who stays below 20 mph and wants hills as easy as possible. ... Not everyone rides bikes the same way... . Can we list any pros for cadence other than lower cost ?
Cadence (or Pedal Assist System) is better than just having a throttle, but to me that's where it ends. Also, PAS can be dangerous too. Let's say you are paused, PAS is set to max 5, and you turn your handle bars turned sharp to the left or right. Then you slightly pedal past the magnet and trigger PAS. Then, the rear tire motor will pulse at max speed. This is not a good design and could hurt the rider or others around them. PAS has ZERO intelligence. Personally, I'd never purchase PAS again. Torque sensing is really the best way to ride. Plus you get way more exercise from torque sensing.
@@smidgelife can you name a few good quality torque drive models that get the longest range ? The more I look the more I'm finding cadence based having the longer ranges and not sure why that is.
Is it possible to covert a cadance sensor to a torque sensor. I have a bafang motor with cadance. What put me of getting a torque over a cadance was that its much harder to maintain high speed 20MPH plus on a torque pedal assist. However do you not get a bit of both with torque sensing and a throttle snice I find cadance just feels like a throttle you control with your feet would love to get your input on this.
It's not so much a conversion as it would be a replacement or swap out. I would think you could add the torque sensing components I just don't know if the computer on your bike would be able to handle it. That's a great question though maybe we have some other people that can chime in on it. Best of luck let me know what you end up doing.
jdk_100 OK the chain pulls on the sensor as it's being stretched putting more power to the rear hub. Like this video: czcams.com/video/EJnCtd9qXog/video.html
@@smidgelife if you put it in first gear, you are applying more torque to the rear wheel for the same pedaling effort. Does the motor apply most of its torque in first gear? I'm thinking torque sensing works better for mid-drives where you can keep the bike in the power band throughout a range of speeds.
I believe all eBikes should have Torque Sensor system. Why because Cadence Sensor does not understand you need more power to climb a hill, or a long incline. A Cadence Sensor understand you want less power when your cadence slows down. With a Torque Sensor system low power motors can provide assist if it understands you are trying to climb (pressing hard on the pedals to increase your cadence). Unfortunately slowing cadence when climbing is interpreted on a cadence System as you want less power assistance. But having a 750-1,000 watt motor with a throttle can power you up a hill without worrying about the Cadence System providing the slowing of power. Bigger motors need more battery storage that weighs more making a heavier bicycle that maybe can't be carried up 3 flights of stairs. Opt for a Torque Sensor style system in a lighter bicycle, and you will be happier eBike owner.
Beautifully stated thank you for the detailed response. I just think most people don't realize the quality that torque sense brings. Additionally I also feel like pas is actually quite dangerous because if your pas is at Max, and then we'll just slightly rotates to activate the pas while you're stopped.... Then it takes off like a rocket with no intelligence.
Do you have any idea what "virtually all" means? I know about the TSDZ2. You're not as brilliant as you think. Name another aftermarket mid-drive with torque sensing, keeping in mind that the Bafang Ultra Max is not aftermarket as you can't just put that on any bike.
I tried an ebike yesterday for the first time and I felt so underwhelmed with the assist. I later found out about the two types of pedal assist and of course, it was Cadence. I’m just going to keep saving money because I really disliked it.
I didn't know juiced has torque sensors...I tested rad and it really is too much power for pedaling, need to change chainring to 52t ... Darn, I could had test ride juiced while I was in San Diego, now I am sorry I didn't...
I hate to point out the major flaw in your whole video. The big difference you complain about is the max speed of the bike. Sorry this has nothing to do with the torque sensing or cadance motor. It has to do with programming. There is a max speed that can be programmed. Depending on the bike it can be set to whatever you want. If you set the max speed to 100mph then the limiting factor is the power of the motor and the gearing of the bike, not what type of motor it is. I own both torque sensing and cadance pas motor bikes and with the correct programming they both can run and feel quite similar. It is way more difficult to program the cadance motor, as you have to have it put out the correct amount of power for the current gear and inclination of the road, then you have to program it to cut back power as cadance increases, or as the speed reaches a certain point of the max speed you have set for that level of PAS. The result is good though
I can only go off of the feel and the physical design and we'll have to agree to disagree. Torque sensing is a completely different feel. PAS no matter how you program it, still triggers based on dead air between two magnets. It's that dead air that doesn't feel like torque sensing. You can feel the dead air in between. I've logged thousands of miles on my bikes and I can tell you... It's just not the same in my opinion.
I have a torque sensor BH e-motion mountain e-bike. Problem is at one point to went to full on its own with no pedal pressure. Now it it takes quite a bit of torque to get it moving, unless i put it in turbo mode. Wish I could show you a photo of the bike since there are so many models. Is there a way to adjust the sensor? Or perhaps is my back tired tightened too much to prevent fluid motion? Basically this is the bike: images.app.goo.gl/fA2qFGPMDxgnqDWA6
For healthy people with no issues I agree. But, in my case, I need the cadence sensor system. I am 74 and have put thousands of miles on my road bikes over the last 50 years. But, a motorcycle accident put an end to my normal riding. I am now partially disabled with limited use of my leg muscles. I tried a couple different e-bikes with torque sensors and they were too difficult for me. So, it was a cadence sensor or nothing for me.
no creo que tu tengas los conocimientos nesesarios para darnos una opinion inteligente y veras simplemente porque no tienes ningun conocomiento sobre E vicicletas lo digo porque mire un video que tu publicaste que no podias quitqr la rueda tracera de tu vicicleta, que te hace creer que tienes buenos conocimientos para dar opinion?
Thank you to show the applied pressure difference on Rad and Juiced. I have a Shimano Steps ebike and I was not sure how a cadence only bike work. Now I feel better to go with the Hyper Scorpion.
I think you explain it well. I decided to go with a torque sensor and I love it. Really encourages you to pedal. I get a lot more exercise than I would with a cadence sensor. I converted an existing bike with a TSDZ2 kit.
Glad I could help! Yes, you said it exactly! Enjoy 😊
You don't just get more exercise. It's way more efficient than cadence sensors by utilizing more if your effort.
This is exactly the kind of information I was looking for....thanks!
Thank you for explain how it feels and works!
Enjoyed the comparison. 👍
Great analysis of the two e bikes
I made the mistake of watching review videos done by channels that I realize now are really more into pure electric propulsion than in getting real exercise. So when they'd note a bike had a cadence sensor, they'd express it as a negative, sure, but the tone was very much along the lines of a torque sensor being a diminishing returns nice-to-have. Got my first ebike with a cadence sensor and got rid of it in a week. Hated it. No matter the power setting, I always seemed to be either working too hard or (more often) too little.
Why there's not a million views on your stuff I don't know. It so hard to find this info anywhere until I found you. Thank you so much for what you do sir! I'm definitely interested in the Ripcurrent for my commuting and transport while photographing at race tracks.
Thanks for the kind words 😀. Glad it helped!
Nice demo hard to get an idea without riding it, but really good job.
Great video, explains exactly what what I thought were the difference with the two types. I want to still feel the pedal resistance while getting help from the motor when needed ie. pedaling up a hill or into a strong wind. A few years back I built a bike with a 750w Bafang mid drive. But after the first couple of pedal rotations it was all motor and no pedal resistance. It appears most of the reasonably priced torque sensor bikes have smaller amp/hr batteries, which I guess makes sense due to of the more personal effort used. Thanks for the video.
Thank you so much for the positive feedback! Glad I could help I was really trying to capture exactly what you stated so thank you.
Thanks for the explanation! Juiced, Surface 604 and FLX bikes all offer torque sensing at a fair price. I'm sure many others will to as time and price keeps coming down. My next e-bike will have the torque sensor on it for sure.
Torque 1 - $1,200 for bicycle with Stealth Battery in Down Tube, and Torque Sensor...
Thanks for the good info. 👍. I will look for a torque sensor ebike as i want that extension feeling of myself to the bike. Cheers
Yes, well worth it.
Jasion uses torque sensors surprisingly. I got the EB5 and was shocked by how smooth the pedaling was and how I could get way more range due to how efficient torque sensors are.
Thanks for filming the comparison. There's a lot more choice out there since I first started using e-bikes but from what I gather go cadence if you have knees problems...
Actually that's a pretty good assessment. But more interestingly it depends on where the pedal crank is when you first start. Because if you were on an incline and you just had cadence sensing it might be more difficult depending on where the magnet is on the pedal crank initially. Once you have momentum I agree with your assessment.
However I do think overall torque sensing is your better way because of what I just stated. Further if you have torque sensing set to its maximum it really would have very limited pressure on your knee.
No matter what I like where your mind is have a great weekend!
My Teslica X1H has a torque sensor, there is a cadence version as well.
Very detailed, Thank you!!
Wonderful video.
I fix hundreds of e-bikes per year and without a doubt, my older customers don't care for the torque sensors because you have to put in more effort. Cadence sensors are cheaper and make the job easier but they are more "disconnected". Nice explanation.
I’m that older guy who prefers the cadence. I usually don’t want to mail it in though and get my work out by getting in the right gear.
@@MarkSmith-js2pu Can you expand on that? How do you get a workout on a cadence system?
@@MarkSmith-js2puI’m an older guy who wants to ride a bike and not have the bike ride me. Torque sensors are much more available in 2024. If you want a cadence sensor bike, why not just get a motorcycle? Looking at all the videos, since the motor speed is totally controlled by what pedal assist level you are in, and it pushes to the speed no matter how hard you’re pedaling, I can’t see how you would ever get a speed in which you aren’t ghost pedaling, which is why I suggest a motorcycle…unless, I suppose, you’re riding bike trails where motorcycles aren’t allowed.
For group rides, for instance, I would think you’d have a hard time keeping in your place since you are either having to pedal really hard or go to the next assist level, at which time, your bike might lurch ahead into the rider ahead of you.
If you enjoy it, though, you do you.
One other interesting fun fact is with standard cadence sensing if you're at a standstill at a light and you have your front wheel turn and then you slowly crank the pedal that triggers the magnet over the sensor and you're at the highest level of pas then the bike is going to take off and do a circle that you're not prepared for and you'll fall down.
I also had an instance where someone was helping me carry the rad Rover over a fence and he grabbed the pedal and triggered the sensor and it almost caused some pain and suffering for both him and me when that happens.
So there's an entire safety issue I think also with standard cadence sensing versus torque sensing.
@@skeller61 I consider it a motorcycle. I pedal all the time, the effort is against the motor. I never ghost pedal anymore since the novelty of that wore off after a while. I use 4 and 5 if I’m on a bike lane in traffic I want to get out of. I ride it on the streets just like a cycle. I had a great 1986 Honda 1100 for quite awhile. I like to use the thumb throttle from a stop in traffic but rarely after that. On a typical commute I’m pedaling my cadence sensor against resistance and going around 15 mph. I dance with it😀
Great explanation thanks for the film :)
Good explanation and demo, thanks. I like a work out, and prefer torque, and set it how I like.
Your cadence bike magnet disc has quite a wobble on it, probably makes no difference, but my OCD kicks in.
Thanks again for taking the time to demonstrate.
Thanks for watching. Torque sensing was definitely one of the biggest surprises I've seen in e-bikes and it can be difficult to convey in words.
If you look closely, that sensor is only engaging the motor when the bent part of the disk is at its closest to the sensor. You're probably not getting the sensor to pickup the other magnets that are bent away from it.
Great comparison
Hey thanks for watching glad I could help.
Thanks for explains
When I made the decision two years ago to add e-assist to my recumbent trike I had to make a couple of decisions as to what system to go with. The first choice was hub motor of mid-drive (mounts in the bottom bracket) motor. I made the decision to go with the mid-drive as it provided better performance (torque and using the existing gearing to multiply the motors assist) and ease of service when compared to a hub drive. That decision made the next one was a torque assist system (Tongsheng TSDZ2) or a cadence assist system (Bafang BBSHD). Both motors can be procured in 250 W, 500W, and 750W versions running on battery voltages of 36V, 48V, or 52V. After careful research between the two I went with the Tongsheng TSDZ2 as it did not require a shift sensor to stop the motor when shifting or to brake sensors to stop the motor when using the brakes. The torque assist is very similar to what you demonstrate in this video, pedal even slightly and you have assist cutting in immediately and when you stop pedaling the assist stops just as rapidly. The Bafang does not react to changes in your pedaling as rapidly and needs these to reduce damage to the drive train. With the Tongsheng the ride is very close to that experienced on an unassisted ride with the only difference being that your effort is being assisted by the level of assist you have chosen. Both units can have a throttle installed but I find that I have almost no use for it as the system works great without its use, I think it would come more into play if for some physical reason you couldn’t pedal and it would provide the power to get you home. The unit is easy to work on and as an example I changed out the torque sensing components internal to the motor (after 5,000 miles of use) in less than two hours which included removing the unit from the trike and reinstalling it when finished.
Amazing detail! Thank you for the info :)
I have both types and tend to ride my mid drive cadence over my hub torque drive. It’s just personal preference
I use the analogy that a cadence sensor operates like an ON/OFF switch & a Torque Sensor operates like a volume control. Another benefit to the Torque Sensor controlled motors is that you can eliminate the Brake & Shift Interrupters since the motor rotation is proportional to the pressure on your pedals.
Great video. I feel exactly the same. Having bought one from Juiced (Cross Current S2) and Aventon Level Commuter, the latter has a cadence sensor, and it SUCKs compared to Juiced.
I’m defending my Level w/ cadence. I am quite satisfied with it.
I definitely agree with the connection thing. It is amazing.
Good video. Haven’t tried a torque sensor yet but did not like a cadence sensor and returned the bike.
Yeah that's the biggest problem with cadence sensors, it's a very artificial bike feel and it does a lot of the work.
I've ordered this tenways ebike I'm waiting for and it has torque sensing. It just feels so much better overall to have torque sensing. It's a major difference and it really makes the bike feel so much smarter plus you get more exercise.
Ok now i understand the difference. Thanks for posting this and I won't look silly the next time this convo comes up with the bike group 😩
Unless you're wearing that hat
@5tephen18 ??
Some math 😂😂😭
I was gonna settle for the Cadence but this thing 5:30 is changing my mind 😭
Update: I got a Rize X eBike with torque sensor. Will upload videos soon :)
Torque sensors are great when starting on a hill. You don't have to get a full revolution of the pedals before the motor kicks in like a cadence sensor.
Cadence plus throttle works a dream for me
Cadence all the way… I’ll leave the torque sensor to the super heroes
Whilst my kit is either "on" or "off" as far as pedaling or throttle (according to 5 assist levels), I have been curious as to the technology available that makes it feel like you are super fit as the motor matches your power. It also makes changing gear more easy as the motor is less likely to pull on the chain when you want to reduce load to shift gear (if you have a mid-drive). To be honest I'd be fine with a more variable throttle and no pedal assist, but am interested in that "amplified fitness" feel and would like to try riding a torque sense bike even though I have no plans for getting another kit.
I own a BH Easy Motion Evo Jet with torque sensing w/ geared Dapu hub motor . I also have a Radwagon w/ cadence sensing gearless Shengyi. I also built a DIY middrive with torque sensing. While the BH Emotion Jet is smoother off the line. I think in the pedal effort is very similar to the Radwagon once I get going. Rad bikes seems to have better customer support than Juiced. I may be biased.
I didn't even know about that bike ($3,099 USD) I'm thinking that's why ;) But wow...looks amazing.
Great video. I can feel your connection thing. On torque you work less. And cadence you work harder. But It's doing the same thing. I rather have torque
Yes, exactly!
I like that a cadence sensor allows you to pedal as much or as little as you like with torque you must pedal continuously. With a cadence and my level of fitness I can go on a 30-40 mile bike ride but with torque I would be limited.
There are plenty of torques with throttles if you need to rest.
How can we adapt plate torque sensor for hown build ebike?
If after max speed of 20mph well it still give you any kind of assistance beyond that. Or you're on your own trying to reach 26 mph
Big difference that I didn’t know about prior to doing a conversion. Very disappointed with bafang mid conversion
What about torque sensor vs torque simulation ?
There are also different types of cadance systems.
Some are speed limited at each pas level (poor).
And some are power limited at each pas level ( much better).
I prefer speed limited, then I can control the pas level to how fast I want to go.
While your comparison is valid for its intent, one can't measure torque with no resistance on the rear wheel. It would have been valid if done on a trainer with a resisting roller. Think of it this way, if you were using a torque wrench on a bolt or nut that turned freely (never tightened), the wrench would never reach a setting. The torque sensor at the rear dropout has an electronic sender that measures the amount of twist on it. Look at it and you'll understand how it works. If the wheel is moving freely on the stand, there's nothing to measure.
That said, I agree with the premise of your narrative.
There is resistance in the spinning wheel. Not a lot, but enough to prove his point. There's aerodynamic drag from the spokes as well as some drag from the bearings. If there were absolutely no resistance, the wheel would spin forever once you start it up.
Perhaps I can simplify. The torque sensor senses virtually no torque in your comparison because there is virtually no resistance to your turning the pedals.
Have you ever tried spinning your crank in a workstand? There's resistance. Is the motor putting out 750 watts in the video? No. It is, however, adding to what he's putting in. Believe me, I do know something of how these things work, with some experience in engineering. Plus I was was riding an electric bike with torque sensor back in the 1990s when most people had never even heard of e-bikes.
Turning the cranks on a workstand is the practically the same as coasting. The motor knows that there is not nearly enough torque being exerted to turn on the assist at anything other than negligible levels. You wouldn't want it to. Isn't that point of the comparison that the cadence sensor turns on the motor if the cranks are turning but the torque sensor applies assist only if there is some significant torque being sensed? And, of course on a workstand as you can see in the video, there is not nearly enough torque to apply any significant assist.
I'm not going to argue with you anymore. Knock yourself out. You're obviously writing all from theory rather than actual experience and I know it's impossible to convince anyone like that.
Thank you for doing this video. I am astonished that the cadence sensor took one full revolution of the crank before kicking in the motor. In my experience That’s not how a proper cadence sensor should work. On my bikes the cadence sensor engages the motor after the passage of a few magnets, about 60 to 90 degrees of rotation. Something is wrong. Juiced Bike are biased toward tongue sensors because that’s what they sell. Both type of sensors have their place depending on the preferences of the operator. Grin Technologies have very good papers explaining the pros and cons of both types of sensors. Again thanks for the side by side comparison. You might want to check your cadence sensor.
Thanks for the feedback and constructive criticism. The main part I was trying to convey is before I even got into e-bikes. I didn't have a clear understanding of how torque sensing could make such a dramatic difference in what you feel when you pedal.
I can also say that nothing was manipulated to position one way or the other. It's more just to educate people that aren't familiar with torque sensing and the difference between that and pedal assist.
Needless to say, this is a fairly hot topic and many people have strong opinions.
I could see the cheap, simple Cadence sensors paying off for less expensive fixed gear setups like the Super 73 Z, if they ever put pedal assist on it. But if I'm trying to muscle my way up the hill, or get quicker takeoff, then the more sophisticated Torque Sensor needs to understand how much Ooomph I'm putting in when working my up through a 7 speed casette drive
What do you mean, specifically, when you said that the Juiced CCS "totally changed your perspective" on "health and exercise?" Have you done any measurement of your personal energy expenditure on the two bikes? How does the CCS compare with conventional biking, in your experience?
That was addressed in a recent study at the University of Basel. They found that people on e-bikes were pretty much exerting themselves as much as people on regular bikes, but they were going faster and further, giving them more enjoyment. Quite simply, if they enjoy cycling more, they'll cycle more. Dispels the myth by the bike snobs that they're the only real cyclists.
www.unibas.ch/en/News-Events/News/Uni-Research/Riding-an-e-bike-promotes-fitness-and-health---already-after-four-weeks.html
@@amightysailingman
“It never gets easier, you just get faster” - Greg LeMond
What are you min and max voltages set at with the torque sensor? I can't find recommended settings anywhere.
Wish I could help I don't know 🤔
I like the cadem sensor and the hub drive... The leader of the pack.... Don't ask me why cuz you won't be happy with the answer
But then steep uphill happens and if u dont have trottle on tourge sensor the less pedal u give to the bike (which is cos the uphill is way too steep and u pedal less and less which equals to less and less power when u need the most), so in the end u end up jumping off the bike and push biking it. On caddnce sensor all u have to do to feel natural is to put it on lower PAS. Its annoying to start on caddnce sensor tough.
So basically... with cadence pedaling is like a throttle? you are just engaging throttle via pedal with your legs?
Where as Torque just makes you feel like a superman?
Is there a big cost difference? Because I see more cadence sensors on budget e-bikes.
Correct, you nailed it! Yes it's mainly the expanse. Torque feels amazing 😁.
Stay tuned as I'm going to demo a mid-drive in about 3 weeks!
Thanks so much for posting this video. With Juiced bikes (like the Scorpion and Hyper Scorpion), are you confident that you will get more true exercise if you get Torque sensing?
If you want to do 28 mph consistently yes because above 20 you have to pedal to get you to that speed. And thank you for the kind words 😅
@@smidgelife Thank for the quick reply. I'm not sure if I understand your answer.
@@smidgelife so you're saying with a class 3 ebike rated at 28mph top speed with a torque sensor, to go 28mph it's basically just as hard as on a non ebike??? Makes zero sense then and defeats the purpose. I would like to be going 28 pedaling but having assistance from the motor I.e. it being fairly easy to maintain the 28mph. So this is not the case?
Try a Tongsheng tsdz2 mid drive.
Hi, on your rad bike. Your cad sensor is not straight, I thought I could hear your motor switching on and off because it’s not straight. 😀👍
Thanks for the explanation. I am new to this so I am unsure about a lot. So with the Torque Sensor does that mean you are doing all the pedaling and all the work until you hit the 23 speed limit and if you push it harder by pedaling harder then you go beyond 23 and the TS kicks in, but until then you are pedaling all yourself with no motor assisting you?
No. torque sensing occurs throughout the various speeds of the bike. From zero to the top end, TS intelligently applies force to assist your pedaling. It's simply much smarter than cadence sensing with magnets and you feel it with each pedaling stroke.
It is a difficult thing to convey that's why I made this video. If you're going to use your bike a lot I would definitely want this feature if you're a casual e-bike user, then it probably won't make a difference.
@@smidgelife Thanks. For burning calories I guess cadence sensors don't let you burn many if any calories then. Correct?
@@jamesgibson3242 minimal correct. Torque sensing will always make you need to apply a level of muscle. Cadence you just need to rotate the sensor to the next magnet.
So could someone please explain what the advantages would be of having a cadence based setup ? For example, someone who stays below 20 mph and wants hills as easy as possible. ... Not everyone rides bikes the same way... . Can we list any pros for cadence other than lower cost ?
Cadence (or Pedal Assist System) is better than just having a throttle, but to me that's where it ends. Also, PAS can be dangerous too. Let's say you are paused, PAS is set to max 5, and you turn your handle bars turned sharp to the left or right. Then you slightly pedal past the magnet and trigger PAS. Then, the rear tire motor will pulse at max speed. This is not a good design and could hurt the rider or others around them. PAS has ZERO intelligence. Personally, I'd never purchase PAS again. Torque sensing is really the best way to ride. Plus you get way more exercise from torque sensing.
@@smidgelife can you name a few good quality torque drive models that get the longest range ? The more I look the more I'm finding cadence based having the longer ranges and not sure why that is.
Is it possible to covert a cadance sensor to a torque sensor. I have a bafang motor with cadance. What put me of getting a torque over a cadance was that its much harder to maintain high speed 20MPH plus on a torque pedal assist. However do you not get a bit of both with torque sensing and a throttle snice I find cadance just feels like a throttle you control with your feet would love to get your input on this.
It's not so much a conversion as it would be a replacement or swap out. I would think you could add the torque sensing components I just don't know if the computer on your bike would be able to handle it. That's a great question though maybe we have some other people that can chime in on it.
Best of luck let me know what you end up doing.
@@smidgelife nah did some research yesterday you have to have a motor designed with it looks like I am stuck with cadance.
Well thanks for the update. At least you know what your next bike will need 😁
Do you think the torque sensor is reacting to the chain or the last cog (the 9th gear)? Also does it only work on the 9th gear or any gear?
It works in any gear.
James Bond It sences the strain on the chain.
jdk_100 OK the chain pulls on the sensor as it's being stretched putting more power to the rear hub.
Like this video: czcams.com/video/EJnCtd9qXog/video.html
James Bond correct.
@@smidgelife if you put it in first gear, you are applying more torque to the rear wheel for the same pedaling effort. Does the motor apply most of its torque in first gear? I'm thinking torque sensing works better for mid-drives where you can keep the bike in the power band throughout a range of speeds.
I believe all eBikes should have Torque Sensor system. Why because Cadence Sensor does not understand you need more power to climb a hill, or a long incline. A Cadence Sensor understand you want less power when your cadence slows down. With a Torque Sensor system low power motors can provide assist if it understands you are trying to climb (pressing hard on the pedals to increase your cadence). Unfortunately slowing cadence when climbing is interpreted on a cadence System as you want less power assistance.
But having a 750-1,000 watt motor with a throttle can power you up a hill without worrying about the Cadence System providing the slowing of power. Bigger motors need more battery storage that weighs more making a heavier bicycle that maybe can't be carried up 3 flights of stairs. Opt for a Torque Sensor style system in a lighter bicycle, and you will be happier eBike owner.
Beautifully stated thank you for the detailed response. I just think most people don't realize the quality that torque sense brings.
Additionally I also feel like pas is actually quite dangerous because if your pas is at Max, and then we'll just slightly rotates to activate the pas while you're stopped.... Then it takes off like a rocket with no intelligence.
just waiting for it to fall off the stand and take off
all of the center hub drives use torque sencing. Head over to Santiago Cycling and try one of there Trek E-Bikes. Just don't look at the price.
That only applies to production bikes, not aftermarket mid-drive systems. Virtually all of those are cadence sensing.
Not true. I have a TongSheng TSDZ2. They have torque sensing.
Do you have any idea what "virtually all" means? I know about the TSDZ2. You're not as brilliant as you think. Name another aftermarket mid-drive with torque sensing, keeping in mind that the Bafang Ultra Max is not aftermarket as you can't just put that on any bike.
Where did get the wood bike stand so the wheels are off the floor?
I made it 😅 custom with 2x4s
I tried an ebike yesterday for the first time and I felt so underwhelmed with the assist. I later found out about the two types of pedal assist and of course, it was Cadence. I’m just going to keep saving money because I really disliked it.
Humm🤔. Which ebike?
Smidge Life The Electrobike brand
What's that weird whoooo whooo sound?
Electric anything is still in its infancy
I didn't know juiced has torque sensors...I tested rad and it really is too much power for pedaling, need to change chainring to 52t ... Darn, I could had test ride juiced while I was in San Diego, now I am sorry I didn't...
Yes. Rad is more mechanical. Juiced is good. I currently own Tenways that has it too.
I hate to point out the major flaw in your whole video. The big difference you complain about is the max speed of the bike. Sorry this has nothing to do with the torque sensing or cadance motor. It has to do with programming. There is a max speed that can be programmed. Depending on the bike it can be set to whatever you want. If you set the max speed to 100mph then the limiting factor is the power of the motor and the gearing of the bike, not what type of motor it is. I own both torque sensing and cadance pas motor bikes and with the correct programming they both can run and feel quite similar. It is way more difficult to program the cadance motor, as you have to have it put out the correct amount of power for the current gear and inclination of the road, then you have to program it to cut back power as cadance increases, or as the speed reaches a certain point of the max speed you have set for that level of PAS. The result is good though
I can only go off of the feel and the physical design and we'll have to agree to disagree. Torque sensing is a completely different feel. PAS no matter how you program it, still triggers based on dead air between two magnets. It's that dead air that doesn't feel like torque sensing. You can feel the dead air in between. I've logged thousands of miles on my bikes and I can tell you... It's just not the same in my opinion.
You really should not be able to get the torque sensor going on a stand. There is really not enough torque to do so. I've tried :)
It worked for me. I could feel the torque system engage.
I have a torque sensor BH e-motion mountain e-bike. Problem is at one point to went to full on its own with no pedal pressure. Now it it takes quite a bit of torque to get it moving, unless i put it in turbo mode. Wish I could show you a photo of the bike since there are so many models. Is there a way to adjust the sensor? Or perhaps is my back tired tightened too much to prevent fluid motion? Basically this is the bike: images.app.goo.gl/fA2qFGPMDxgnqDWA6
I'm doing something it is doing something 😀
The idea of ‘ghost pedalling’ is just horrible
For healthy people with no issues I agree. But, in my case, I need the cadence sensor system. I am 74 and have put thousands of miles on my road bikes over the last 50 years. But, a motorcycle accident put an end to my normal riding. I am now partially disabled with limited use of my leg muscles. I tried a couple different e-bikes with torque sensors and they were too difficult for me. So, it was a cadence sensor or nothing for me.
Makes sense and I agree with you for your situation that completely is understandable. Cheers
no creo que tu tengas los conocimientos nesesarios para darnos una opinion inteligente y veras simplemente porque no tienes ningun conocomiento sobre E vicicletas lo digo porque mire un video que tu publicaste que no podias quitqr la rueda tracera de tu vicicleta, que te hace creer que tienes buenos conocimientos para dar opinion?
Your high tech rig will ruin your derailleurs .
It was a 1 time test, but I get your point. Thanks for watching. Cheers
Wow looks like your Rad bike has been to war and back
For sure. It's my work 🏇.
I think cadence sensor is better for fat tire 🛞 e-bikes