Yup. Back in 2018/2019 I was dating an emotionally manipulative person - charismatic upfront, very sneaky underneath. Going to couples with them just gave them the tools to manipulate more effectively. Glad to be out now! Many therapists aren't prepared to deal with an emotionally abusive partner effectively. Thank you Patrick!!!
So true. Been there and the therapist actually told us after about 6 sessions she couldn’t help us because he was so avoidant and refusing to do any of the work we needed to do together.
I wish my therapist would have said that!! She never once said he wasn’t doing his part … he did none of the exercises, cause of course … he isn’t the problem!! Narcissist 100%!! Gaslighting 109%. I was crazy, I was the problem. I’m not as valuable!
I did couples therapy with my ex. After 8 years of ups and downs, we either needed to mature or breakup. He was constantly making drama and gaslighting me. That’s when I accepted it NEVER would get better. I realized that I couldn’t tolerate faking normalcy. It’s better to be alone than resentful and always on edge.
Absolutely! I recently accepted that about my partner as well. Being in a fulfilling healthy respectful relationship can be better than being single but being single is WAYYYY better than being in an unhealthy relationship with a person who doesn’t respect you. Our society pushes for a shorthand that being in a relationship is better than being alone and that is simply not true.
I have a doubt, and would really appreciate your experience to help me underatand. So would you say, at least by taking therapy I might at least get an idea that yes, I have done enough for this relationship and its really not going to work for us anymore?
@@Lakshmi63849 yeah, it’s worth a try. In my case I could see that my ex was constantly blaming me and trying to wind me up in front of the counselor. We were given a few tasks for at home and he wasn’t participating. Than in session he would blame me or take things off track so he couldn’t be questioned. He was taking things from session and using them against me at later times. His actions were completely different than his words in session. He ignored any suggestions to improve himself, but heavily used any critiques about my behavior as leverage and fuel for new fights. It was clear that he didn’t actually want me healthy, he wanted me on edge and easily under his control.
Me too ,but I don't like to waste any more time than what I have already spent on this relationship ! I am thankful to God for letting me understand it earlier than wasting a lifetime with him to break up later.and wake up to notice that you have completely lost your life in that toxic relationship.
So true, my husband and I have done therapy, classes, retreats etc but not because we needed to “fix something”. We go so we can have tools in our toolbox so if something arises we can handle it in a healthy way. But the key word here is WE. I’m blessed to have a partner who works as hard as I do in our relationship. We have been together since we were 15, have had 4 kids which 2 have had life threatening and lifelong illnesses. I don’t know how our relationship would be now if we had not put in the hard work together that helped build our foundation. If your partner however doesn’t want to go, it’s better to just go to work on yourself because in the end that’s all you have control over.
You said it sister! God bless you both it sounds like you both been through a lot. it may take only one to break relationship but it takes both to be mature enough to make the sacrifices necessary in order to maintain it and to make it! You hit the nail on the head. It literally takes TWO. Just like it takes two hands to clap, One person can only carry the whole thing for so long. I know it sounds really corny, but a healthy relationship is a team effort. Without two people pulling their own weight sooner or later it just won't work because it's a back and forth. Finding that healthy person, or that person who might have plenty of flaws ( because we all do) but they're functional enough to be willing to work on themselves and to grow and to make the necessary sacrifices, is EVERYTHING in life. I'm really happy you found that person and it's amazing you guys started out so young and you're still hanging in there. Amazing. I wish you both all the best.
I experienced this first hand. Husband sat there with arms and legs crossed and sold the therapist a golden story of his childhood. He told me differently. She ate it up, and in me being totally honest and open about my experience she basically put all the blame on me. She didn't see past his bs. Needless to say stopped going, to her, and started solo sessions with another therapist.
Wow, she sounds like a pretty poor/unskilled therapist. Seems that any therapist worth their salt would be able to see through the fairly textbook games that some clients will play. Maybe she was new, idk. Hopefully she gets better cuz that couldn't have been fun for you to see him totally basically gaming her and then realizing that no honest growth could happen because she couldn't even accurately approach you because in a sense she's allowing him to direct the dynamics of the whole situation.
OMG , this happened to me! We went because he was cheating on me! I didn't want to go but my ex was scared to get a divorce. I said lets try couples counseling. We went and then he refused to put in any effort, the therapist was so biased she didn't even make it a priority for him to stop seeing his affair partner at voluntary social events. He also had rage issues, from SA as a child which she refused to address. The truth is that by the time you go to counseling, its too late and statistically therapists are biased against women!
My dad just recently shared with me that my mom stood him up for their couples therapy appointments when I was a toddler. They’ve been stuck in their unhappy marriage my whole life and considering my mom’s behavior this whole time I can only imagine the things my dad has suffered through. Though they’re technically still together, they most definitely didn’t work out. It’s so sad to see how much time my dad wasted.
It likely wasn't wasted. I am going to make the assumption he stuck it out to raise you. He wanted you to turn out well and he knew the sad statistics if he wasn't there. He lived through his wife's hell to give you the best future he could. If my assumption is true, I doubt he felt it wasted. It was a purposeful sacrifice.
@@17h127 This was a very kind reply to a difficult comment, and I agree. I usually think "It's better to be *from* a broken home, than to *live in* one", but when one parent can be as strong as OP's dad... that makes me think the world can maybe be okay.
@@17h127 Unfortunately he had to go on his own journey, and he wasn’t around much until I was older. I was angry with him for a long time for leaving me and my siblings to be raised by our mother, and for being her enabler and missing so much of our lives. But the main difference between them is my dad has been open to the conversations and my feelings, and has made a lot of growth and come a long way! And I love where our relationship is going right now. My mom on the other hand is a perpetual victim and covert narcissist who uses gaslighting as her go to defense whenever my feelings don’t fit her narrative. I’m actually trying to help my dad get his finances right (because she took control of everything) so he can finally divorce her. I can tell it scares him, but so many years are gone and I know he doesn’t want to waste more years with a woman who abuses him like this.
I just want to thank you so much for saying this! I appreciate so much that you just tell it like it is Patrick. I really dislike when therapists do not just tell you, hey, that's not alright that that is happening to you. As childhood trauma survivors it can be extremely difficult to understand when someone is treating us badly as you explain countless times on your channel. Just thank you so much for your videos and teachings.
SO true! Thanks for telling the truth! AND many therapists are I’ll prepared to resist being gaslit by narcissists. Leaving the well intentioned codependent spouse out gunned…again. Great work Patrick!! Keep ‘em coming!
You are 1000% correct. My ex husband literally tricked me into going to couples therapy. Said we were going to dinner. Lol. A year after doing that, I started going to a therapist to evaluate whether I wanted to stay in the relationship and process through things. She suggested that he was really shut down and “emotionally lazy” and that the best course of action was him to engage with another therapist and then eventually bring us together for couples therapy after working independently. When I talked to him about it, he refused. So I said, “Ok. So, you are fine with couples therapy. And you’re fine with me going to a therapist, but you won’t go to a therapist?” He said, “Yeah.” I said, “That, to me, indicates that you believe I’m the problem here.” He said, “Yeah.” I said, “Yeah, ok, we are definitely getting divorced.”
Lol. I'm sorry it didn't work out but it's unfortunate when one person is so juvenile or narcissistic or selfish that they refuse to even consider that there might be something that they're doing wrong and be willing to at least try to find areas that they can improve on. the fact that he wasn't even willing to try to examine himself even superficially is not a good sign. you probably made the right choice and hopefully things are going better for you now.
ma'am , with all due respect - these are " first world problems " at their finest . you should be thankful your man doesn't beat or cheat on you . you should be thankful he isn't a criminal or a drug addict. you should be thankful you have a roof over your head & food in your stomach . to be blunt - you're asking for too much & it's not worth dying alone none the less being labeled as a "divorced woman " you're not young anymore . you can't pull high value men like you once could . I fear you're going to regret this divorce . try taking the " red pill " before signing those papers . for your own good . men age like fine wine . women age like spoiled milk . how stupid are you going to feel when he replaces you with a younger , hotter woman with less miles on her ? & she's taking the resources meant for YOU ? think about it .
@@Prepper319As a man that is some fucked up narcissistic bullshit. You think she cares about what kind of woman replaces her? A lot of people including myself are much happier alone and would rather die alone than be in miserable relationship. Just coz You’re afraid of dying alone doesnt mean everyone else is
I really appreciate your genuine commitment to translating your lived experience and insights into tools. You truly care to help and it shows. Thank you!
Absolutely. I was told by my therapist and my couples therapist that I was carrying the marriage alone. He eventually showed up, but would lie just to look good to the therapist, but didn't follow through with anything and shut me out when we would get home. I have since left the marriage. It was too broken 💔
I can only imagine how difficult that must be but pat yourself on the back- you'll be so much healthier and internally peaceful from here on out. Be strong and love yourself. I wish you only the best and I am sure one day you will find a person that is developed and mature enough to be a true healthy partner for you and your life. All the best. 👏
This was my experience too. One therapist told me I was the one with the problem. Second one was better but it didn't change anything. I dumped him and he acted like he was surprised. I dodged a bullet on that one.
As a therapist I see this time and time again. Often couples cancel their next appointment because they expect you to perform miracles and are just not ready to accept responsibility.
Wow wow wow my heart is sad for the people who truly sought out help and weren't able to reach breakthroughs, empathy or appreciation. It must've really been so vulnerable to ask for that help and not be met with results.
I’m currently in a Marriage and Family Therapy class and yeah, as I learn more about what it entails, I wholeheartedly agree that everyone has to be on board to get anything out of it.
Yes, this is so true. It is why I often will recommend eventually therapy first when I get these types of couples showing up for couples counseling. You can’t just one person in a relationship willing and/or capable of doing all the work. Nor are we miracle workers.
Little did I know, it was a condition I placed in order to reconcile. I wanted confirmation he did not have a personality disorder. She emphasized my hyper vigilance during our couple sessions (“you’re watching him like a hawk”, “you’re like big brother”). He laughed at EMDR during their session… It really didn’t help.
I have struggled in every relationship being mistreated but didn’t see it cause of childhood trauma. Found a partner who treated be better but emotionally not available. He Found out he is asperger after 10 years of relationship. I feel like it’s not his fault being emotionally not there but at the same time I’m very unhappy :(
I think the same thing applies when trying to build bridges with fractured relationships with parents. It's hard when there has been generational emotional abuse and both parties are damaged and struggling to communicate. But it's near impossible when one party is trying to do the work and the other is too shut down to engage with the repair process.
Yup. This. Me and my partner broke up 1 week ago today, and I definitely had this "if I only get him to go with me to a therapist then the therapist will open his eyes and he'll be open to all the things he's always doubted the 5 years we've been together". The part that makes me really angry and disappointed is that some therapists (etc) seriously teach that it only takes 1 person to change the relationship. 1 person can solve the problems by themselves and I mean this just screams codependency (the term in Swedish is co-addiction). Shoutout Abby Medcalf who taught me this and made my unrealistic naive hope even bigger. And I mean... how many heterosexual men do you think listen to that sort of thing vs hetero women? 10% vs 90%? This all makes me so angry
Unfortunately, this is so true :( Also, I think when you're the partner who's pressing for therapy, be prepared that therapy will uncover wrongs on your side too. Healing is for everyone.
24 straight couples therapy sessions with my narcissistic alcoholic ex, and everything was still my fault, and he didn’t have a drinking problem. Our 15-yo twins knew he was an alcoholic without any input from me. They still dislike him for his dishonesty, 20 years later.
My husband has been diagnosed as having schizoid traits & Narcissistic traits ( controlling, manipulative, lying, gaslighting, blame shifting, non co operative, passive aggressive ) - he agreed to go for family therapy in 2018 as he felt I was the problem needing psychologist's intervention. He stopped going after 3-4 months . He told me he would listen to (?) only that (which the therapist told) which he wanted to accept . Obviously he stopped going after 3 or 4 months when it was not making him happy / comfortable. And he also manipulated & influenced the earlier psychotherapist & gaslighted me. What an experience
Ooooh yeah this happened to me when I tried family therapy with my siblings. Me and one of my siblings showed up and did the work but we couldn’t really solve anything without the other sibling willing to make changes and take ownership of her actions
Yeah. I took my husband, who ASKED TO GO. It was obvious it wasn’t going to work. My therapist scolded me for not agreeing to couples bcs “he really wants this to work”. Excuse me, who has been married to this man for 25 years? Not you. Narc’t in it to undermine my one support source. It worked.
My opinion: In couples therapy, each partner needs to be inward focused and analyzing themselves in knowing how they individually can improve the relationship. If the other partner does not have that mentality, then its up the the individual to decide and see if this relationship is right for them. Its not about changing the other person. That is impossible and shouldnt be the point
My ex refused point blank to go to therapy. I left. We both needed better communication skills. I might have been able to get him there by admitting there were things I was afraid to talk to him about but it just would have prolonged the agony.
Glad I didn’t bother. I don’t think my husband has the ability even to be self aware or be emotionally mature. He’s been so shut down for so long his emotional development is actually stunted and I can’t see him changing. He really only ever wanted a mother to look after him who could also be a wife. And that’s all he’ll ever want as far as I can tell. There will be no future where we have conversations and discussions on different topics like other people. His understanding of life is so limited, there is no meaningful feedback he can ever give me on anything except what to buy at the supermarket, what to have for dinner, what night he is going out & which family event is coming up.
Only one ex of mine ever brought up "counseling " to me as something we needed to try to stay together. I broke up with her the following day and never looked back. I have since been with someone now for almost 10 years who loves me for me.
So true. I'm polyamorous and in two long-term relationships, and I'm in couples therapy with both of my partners. It's kind of routine maintenance for us. I don't think either couples therapy would be very productive if we weren't all in individual therapy as well. It's really essential to be working on yourself as an individual if you want your relationship(s) with your partner(s) to continue improving. Especially if you're dealing with childhood trauma and learning to self-advocate and reparent your inner child, you need to bring those insights into your conversations with your partners so that they can understand how you're changing and growing as a person. The relationship might change, too, and a partner who supports healthy change still needs time to process and negotiate how those changes might impact them.
That's really mature of all of you, if you can make it work. I was into some poly scenes in my twenties, but, "long term", multiple relationships were almost always bad news.
@@mjreikiriot3302 it's not for everyone, but not everyone's built the same. Some people are very happy with it. I say to each their own. Life should be about what satisfies us and makes us happy as long as we're not harming anybody else in the process.
Just the concept of "couple therapy" blows my mind lol I couldn't imagine having a therapist also mediate the relationship in real time because I can't even concept having a relationship in that time
Isn't it ironic how the only couples that would actually benefit from couples therapy are people who probably wouldn't need couples therapy to begin with because they already be open to communication
Glad I saw this first. I’m considering going with my covert narc husband who can only see things through his eyes. I told him this and he says he doesn’t understand. I am done with this marriage and now he is wanting to go because I have brought it up in the past. I was thinking maybe if he hears it from another man that his behavior is extremely abusive then he will see and self reflect. He thinks threatening me at gun point isn’t abuse and I’m being a drama queen. I hope I can survive this marriage for a few more months till I can escape it.
(1) Abusers are good at hiding who they are until they have you trapped (marriage, children, you are financially dependent on them) (2) It's normal for couples to lose the spark and get sick of each other, not always but it happens. People change and won't always want the same things in a relationship.
Depends. Just retired after forty years as a couples and individual therapist. What people present at the beginning is sometimes a defensive cover and can be permeated. The reverse can be true as well. That is - you can get someone who seems able to self reflect and change but then you find their difficulties are too entrenched for the moment you are trying to help them. I say that because none of us in the business are everyone’s cup of tea. Timing and personality matter and sometimes they do better with another therapist. All parties should be open to that possible outcome.
Also true if they’re only going because they have a problem with you. After years of begging my ex to go to couples’ with me, she finally agreed because she was very angry with me about something I’d done. It didn’t last long. She stonewalled me every time I’d ask her to practice exercises the therapist suggested at home with me. Then she quit after a handful of sessions because the therapist didn’t take her side that I was the problem, or fully believe her overly rosy stories about her personal life aside from me, and encouraged her to take accountability for her part in our issues. If one partner has a controlling agenda of any kind (“I’ll get someone else to tell you how bad you are”; “I’ll make you do what I want”; “I’ll do this so you’ll shut up asking”), I don’t think couples’ can work. It’s a block against true investment in changing their own part in things if they’re focussed on changing you instead.
thank you so much for saying that! you described precisely how i felt in my relationship with my ex-husband, and i always had that regret that we never went to therapy.
Ab-so-lutely! Later in a private session, our therapist, unprompted, told me I would probably never find another partner so good-looking and desirable. She was SO swayed by his charm and entitled position within our small community. Turned out he was a massive philanderer.
Seems like there are a lot of incompetent, weak-minded therapists out there so unfortunately based on what I've heard, it would seem that the answer is yes.
It's really true. People have to come to their own conclusion. It doesn't matter how well you explain a concept to someone if they are commited to not understanding.
As a fellow therapist, I agree. Don't put unrealistic hopes in therapy. If you work on yourself and they don't work on themselves, we can't make you a happy couple, ever. If you're on a path of emotional maturity, appreciate what you bring into a relationship and don't give it away so cheap. Even if that means staying single for a while because a lot of people won't match in that regard.
THANK YOU PATRICK! My narc sister wants us to go to family therapy to "fix my behavior "...first of all, the bad behavior she is referring to is just me establishing boundaries. Two, as you said, since she is in fact a narcissist who may have NPD therapy is doomed to fail
I haven’t done couples counseling before but I’ve done family counseling and it seems similar. My parents sent me to counseling for years because I was the problem but in all reality they should’ve been going themselves individually because they had demons not dealt with, they were shut off. So as you can imagine being in the same room together gets nothing done when one person has worked on themselves understand there own psychology and why someone else may be acting a certain way and family dynamic better and the rest have never put any effort into it. Counseling only works if you let it. I’m surprised they don’t recommend individual counseling before couples counseling. If you have to force someone to try you might as well pack up and leave.
@@psychicbyinternetfree?! So how is the therapist supposed to live? Do you know how many years and post graduate work it takes to become a therapist?! Not to mention hundreds of dollars to keep the license in good standing?! I just have to laugh at therapy being free…🤣🤣🤣
And nothing is guaranteed in life other than death. The therapist isn’t a miracle worker. You and your partner will have to do the work and if it doesn’t work then you know that it may be time to end the relationship and move forward.
could you do a couples council roleplay? im only familiar with pop culture couples counciling, where its treated as a last resort and a joke. Me and my boyfriend both have ptsd and we want to do couples counciling, but we're happily dating, so idk what that would look like
I've also heard of a manipulative person pushing their spouse to couples counseling. That manipulative person has a degree in psychology, and probably managed to get the counselor on their side to "change the spouse". Their spouse isn't perfect, of course, but ask anyone who knows them and people will tell you that the spouse isn't the problem there.
Reply Yes and No. Family therapy is different/ siblings is different. Family therapy, the changes needed are often small and can't divorce your family. Marriage is very different! It requires a lot more work and both need to be 100 percent committed.
This is very hurtful information. EQ can be taught and on average men drag their feet to therapy but I’ve had plenty of couples come out better ( initially resistant partner glad they came). It took trauma work and a lot of psycho ed and processing
And the therapist is blamed .... (therapist here) . Doing couple therapy is a challenge for most therapists. They need to be on the side of the marriage AND call out bad behavior and do it with finesse--Terry Real 's paradigm seems to be the best one currently IMO.
We have a great therapist. I can't say enough good things about him. However, my wife isn't self aware at all and never spent time reflecting at all on her own behavior. He's been honest with me saying I can either deal with her the way she is or get a divorce. He's right. Over the years I stayed because my kids were young, though in hindsight, the answer was to divorce. She cries to start every session and it comes off like she's caring and throws the sessions off. All fingers are pointed at me. He used to attempt to set her straight and would personally get upset about her gaslighting me and him. We all bring issues into a marriage, though if one partner has the ability to look within and determine their part and the spouse doesn't, then no therapist can break through no matter how incredibly skilled. My biggest issue is frustration attempting to get through to her. All she does is look at me with a blank look, plays the victim, and deflects everything back at me.
An intervention that might work well for this is "Emotional Focussed Therapy." Individuals who are shut off from their emotions can benefit a lot because the therapist gives them a process to be able to get in touch with their internal experience. You don't need to be "psych minded." We as LMFT's have a much different interpretation as what it means to be "psych-minded" than the general public.
I'm a Nordic personality, INTP and my wife is of Bavarian ancestry and ENFJ. Also, she's religious and I'm not. We still have an intact 28 year marriage. We just try harder.
When a third person has to come and tell you how to better love each other, it’s usually over. Also, if you have to convince someone about how you feel and they don’t respect your emotions, just imagine how much a third person’s advice will matter.
And thats why I took my ex seriusly when his reaction to me sugestion getting help for our issues was "ha no, I'd rather break up". He was to prowed to creep back when I took that very siriously, but I doged a bullet for sure. I am now happyliy married with kids, sure its not always easy, sometimes we go withbout our needs met cuz thats pare ting life, but we can talk and suport eachother, my husband went through intens therapy bevore we got together and made me go too cuz I needed it.
Yeah, my husband still doesn't believe he had any problem whatsoever, and it affects us still almost as bad as it did when he was still around because we have a daughter together.
I recall hearing somewhere that couple's therapy has something like an 80% failure rate. I'm not sure if that statistic is still up to date, but if so, that's pretty brutal and makes me think either the method isn't working or people just don't know how to have functional relationships at all.
I would not even entertain the idea. I have been in and out of therapy for many years. This does not mean it would be productive to even try. Each therapist had their own reservations about couples therapy. I rarely asked him.it Always NO.
If you're thinking about couple's counseling then your relationship is over. There's the harsh truth. The success rate is 2%. 2% of couples who go to couples counseling fix the relationship and 100% of the people are better off afterwards. You're not the 2%, end the relationship. Otherwise you're just prolonging the inevitable. And be kind about it. Don't be an asshole.
Yup. Back in 2018/2019 I was dating an emotionally manipulative person - charismatic upfront, very sneaky underneath. Going to couples with them just gave them the tools to manipulate more effectively. Glad to be out now! Many therapists aren't prepared to deal with an emotionally abusive partner effectively. Thank you Patrick!!!
So true. Been there and the therapist actually told us after about 6 sessions she couldn’t help us because he was so avoidant and refusing to do any of the work we needed to do together.
Glad ther therapist was forthcoming!
I wish my therapist would have said that!! She never once said he wasn’t doing his part … he did none of the exercises, cause of course … he isn’t the problem!! Narcissist 100%!!
Gaslighting 109%. I was crazy, I was the problem. I’m not as valuable!
That's an honest therapist.
I did couples therapy with my ex. After 8 years of ups and downs, we either needed to mature or breakup. He was constantly making drama and gaslighting me. That’s when I accepted it NEVER would get better. I realized that I couldn’t tolerate faking normalcy. It’s better to be alone than resentful and always on edge.
Absolutely! I recently accepted that about my partner as well. Being in a fulfilling healthy respectful relationship can be better than being single but being single is WAYYYY better than being in an unhealthy relationship with a person who doesn’t respect you. Our society pushes for a shorthand that being in a relationship is better than being alone and that is simply not true.
I have a doubt, and would really appreciate your experience to help me underatand. So would you say, at least by taking therapy I might at least get an idea that yes, I have done enough for this relationship and its really not going to work for us anymore?
@@Lakshmi63849 yeah, it’s worth a try. In my case I could see that my ex was constantly blaming me and trying to wind me up in front of the counselor. We were given a few tasks for at home and he wasn’t participating. Than in session he would blame me or take things off track so he couldn’t be questioned. He was taking things from session and using them against me at later times. His actions were completely different than his words in session. He ignored any suggestions to improve himself, but heavily used any critiques about my behavior as leverage and fuel for new fights. It was clear that he didn’t actually want me healthy, he wanted me on edge and easily under his control.
Hmmmm gotta hear his side. Heard this before from women and it's always another side to the story.
Me too ,but I don't like to waste any more time than what I have already spent on this relationship ! I am thankful to God for letting me understand it earlier than wasting a lifetime with him to break up later.and wake up to notice that you have completely lost your life in that toxic relationship.
So true, my husband and I have done therapy, classes, retreats etc but not because we needed to “fix something”. We go so we can have tools in our toolbox so if something arises we can handle it in a healthy way. But the key word here is WE. I’m blessed to have a partner who works as hard as I do in our relationship. We have been together since we were 15, have had 4 kids which 2 have had life threatening and lifelong illnesses. I don’t know how our relationship would be now if we had not put in the hard work together that helped build our foundation. If your partner however doesn’t want to go, it’s better to just go to work on yourself because in the end that’s all you have control over.
You said it sister! God bless you both it sounds like you both been through a lot. it may take only one to break relationship but it takes both to be mature enough to make the sacrifices necessary in order to maintain it and to make it! You hit the nail on the head. It literally takes TWO. Just like it takes two hands to clap, One person can only carry the whole thing for so long. I know it sounds really corny, but a healthy relationship is a team effort. Without two people pulling their own weight sooner or later it just won't work because it's a back and forth. Finding that healthy person, or that person who might have plenty of flaws ( because we all do) but they're functional enough to be willing to work on themselves and to grow and to make the necessary sacrifices, is EVERYTHING in life.
I'm really happy you found that person and it's amazing you guys started out so young and you're still hanging in there. Amazing. I wish you both all the best.
Did you ever cheat?
I experienced this first hand. Husband sat there with arms and legs crossed and sold the therapist a golden story of his childhood. He told me differently. She ate it up, and in me being totally honest and open about my experience she basically put all the blame on me. She didn't see past his bs. Needless to say stopped going, to her, and started solo sessions with another therapist.
Wow, she sounds like a pretty poor/unskilled therapist. Seems that any therapist worth their salt would be able to see through the fairly textbook games that some clients will play. Maybe she was new, idk. Hopefully she gets better cuz that couldn't have been fun for you to see him totally basically gaming her and then realizing that no honest growth could happen because she couldn't even accurately approach you because in a sense she's allowing him to direct the dynamics of the whole situation.
@@YourCapyBra_3Dpipesa90sspecial got it in one!
Good 4 u for being able to see it and go solo.
OMG , this happened to me! We went because he was cheating on me! I didn't want to go but my ex was scared to get a divorce. I said lets try couples counseling. We went and then he refused to put in any effort, the therapist was so biased she didn't even make it a priority for him to stop seeing his affair partner at voluntary social events. He also had rage issues, from SA as a child which she refused to address. The truth is that by the time you go to counseling, its too late and statistically therapists are biased against women!
My dad just recently shared with me that my mom stood him up for their couples therapy appointments when I was a toddler. They’ve been stuck in their unhappy marriage my whole life and considering my mom’s behavior this whole time I can only imagine the things my dad has suffered through. Though they’re technically still together, they most definitely didn’t work out. It’s so sad to see how much time my dad wasted.
It likely wasn't wasted. I am going to make the assumption he stuck it out to raise you. He wanted you to turn out well and he knew the sad statistics if he wasn't there. He lived through his wife's hell to give you the best future he could. If my assumption is true, I doubt he felt it wasted. It was a purposeful sacrifice.
@@17h127 This was a very kind reply to a difficult comment, and I agree. I usually think "It's better to be *from* a broken home, than to *live in* one", but when one parent can be as strong as OP's dad... that makes me think the world can maybe be okay.
@@17h127 Unfortunately he had to go on his own journey, and he wasn’t around much until I was older. I was angry with him for a long time for leaving me and my siblings to be raised by our mother, and for being her enabler and missing so much of our lives. But the main difference between them is my dad has been open to the conversations and my feelings, and has made a lot of growth and come a long way! And I love where our relationship is going right now. My mom on the other hand is a perpetual victim and covert narcissist who uses gaslighting as her go to defense whenever my feelings don’t fit her narrative. I’m actually trying to help my dad get his finances right (because she took control of everything) so he can finally divorce her. I can tell it scares him, but so many years are gone and I know he doesn’t want to waste more years with a woman who abuses him like this.
I'm actually going through the same thing. Sticking to my baby mama cause I want to build a relationship with the child
I just want to thank you so much for saying this! I appreciate so much that you just tell it like it is Patrick. I really dislike when therapists do not just tell you, hey, that's not alright that that is happening to you. As childhood trauma survivors it can be extremely difficult to understand when someone is treating us badly as you explain countless times on your channel. Just thank you so much for your videos and teachings.
This is a great commebt
SO true! Thanks for telling the truth!
AND many therapists are I’ll prepared to resist being gaslit by narcissists. Leaving the well intentioned codependent spouse out gunned…again.
Great work Patrick!!
Keep ‘em coming!
You are 1000% correct. My ex husband literally tricked me into going to couples therapy. Said we were going to dinner. Lol. A year after doing that, I started going to a therapist to evaluate whether I wanted to stay in the relationship and process through things. She suggested that he was really shut down and “emotionally lazy” and that the best course of action was him to engage with another therapist and then eventually bring us together for couples therapy after working independently. When I talked to him about it, he refused. So I said, “Ok. So, you are fine with couples therapy. And you’re fine with me going to a therapist, but you won’t go to a therapist?” He said, “Yeah.” I said, “That, to me, indicates that you believe I’m the problem here.” He said, “Yeah.” I said, “Yeah, ok, we are definitely getting divorced.”
Lol. I'm sorry it didn't work out but it's unfortunate when one person is so juvenile or narcissistic or selfish that they refuse to even consider that there might be something that they're doing wrong and be willing to at least try to find areas that they can improve on. the fact that he wasn't even willing to try to examine himself even superficially is not a good sign. you probably made the right choice and hopefully things are going better for you now.
ma'am , with all due respect -
these are " first world problems " at their finest .
you should be thankful your man doesn't beat or cheat on you .
you should be thankful he isn't a criminal or a drug addict.
you should be thankful you have a roof over your head & food in your stomach .
to be blunt - you're asking for too much & it's not worth dying alone none the less being labeled as a "divorced woman "
you're not young anymore . you can't pull high value men like you once could . I fear you're going to regret this divorce .
try taking the " red pill " before signing those papers . for your own good .
men age like fine wine .
women age like spoiled milk .
how stupid are you going to feel when he replaces you with a younger , hotter woman with less miles on her ? & she's taking the resources meant for YOU ?
think about it .
@@Prepper319As a man that is some fucked up narcissistic bullshit. You think she cares about what kind of woman replaces her? A lot of people including myself are much happier alone and would rather die alone than be in miserable relationship. Just coz You’re afraid of dying alone doesnt mean everyone else is
@@Prepper319Projection. At least she'll be healthier, happier and live longer. Men are Class A energy vampires.
@@peppersteakpie4986
I think you're lying or delusional.
no one wants to die alone .
This exactly why after the first round of couples therapy I realized it was useless. Thank you for articulating that so clearly.
I really appreciate your genuine commitment to translating your lived experience and insights into tools. You truly care to help and it shows. Thank you!
Absolutely. I was told by my therapist and my couples therapist that I was carrying the marriage alone. He eventually showed up, but would lie just to look good to the therapist, but didn't follow through with anything and shut me out when we would get home. I have since left the marriage. It was too broken 💔
I can only imagine how difficult that must be but pat yourself on the back- you'll be so much healthier and internally peaceful from here on out. Be strong and love yourself. I wish you only the best and I am sure one day you will find a person that is developed and mature enough to be a true healthy partner for you and your life. All the best. 👏
This was my experience too. One therapist told me I was the one with the problem. Second one was better but it didn't change anything. I dumped him and he acted like he was surprised. I dodged a bullet on that one.
You're so lucky and got out. Unfortunately i didn't.
Hi dear how are you doing
As a therapist I see this time and time again. Often couples cancel their next appointment because they expect you to perform miracles and are just not ready to accept responsibility.
Wow wow wow my heart is sad for the people who truly sought out help and weren't able to reach breakthroughs, empathy or appreciation. It must've really been so vulnerable to ask for that help and not be met with results.
Oooh. I wanted to go to couples therapy for my ex who was not open to going without me. Glad I didn’t waste my money.
Narcissist Never do well in therapy
Man, i needed this 12 years ago! But thank you for the validation i really need
You’re SO right, I know this now after 2-go rounds (unsuccessful) with 2-different couples therapists
I’m currently in a Marriage and Family Therapy class and yeah, as I learn more about what it entails, I wholeheartedly agree that everyone has to be on board to get anything out of it.
Yes, this is so true. It is why I often will recommend eventually therapy first when I get these types of couples showing up for couples counseling. You can’t just one person in a relationship willing and/or capable of doing all the work. Nor are we miracle workers.
Little did I know, it was a condition I placed in order to reconcile. I wanted confirmation he did not have a personality disorder. She emphasized my hyper vigilance during our couple sessions (“you’re watching him like a hawk”, “you’re like big brother”). He laughed at EMDR during their session… It really didn’t help.
I have struggled in every relationship being mistreated but didn’t see it cause of childhood trauma. Found a partner who treated be better but emotionally not available. He Found out he is asperger after 10 years of relationship. I feel like it’s not his fault being emotionally not there but at the same time I’m very unhappy :(
I feel this.
I'm sorry. I hope you find happiness and even joy.
I think the same thing applies when trying to build bridges with fractured relationships with parents. It's hard when there has been generational emotional abuse and both parties are damaged and struggling to communicate. But it's near impossible when one party is trying to do the work and the other is too shut down to engage with the repair process.
Yup. This. Me and my partner broke up 1 week ago today, and I definitely had this "if I only get him to go with me to a therapist then the therapist will open his eyes and he'll be open to all the things he's always doubted the 5 years we've been together".
The part that makes me really angry and disappointed is that some therapists (etc) seriously teach that it only takes 1 person to change the relationship. 1 person can solve the problems by themselves and I mean this just screams codependency (the term in Swedish is co-addiction). Shoutout Abby Medcalf who taught me this and made my unrealistic naive hope even bigger. And I mean... how many heterosexual men do you think listen to that sort of thing vs hetero women? 10% vs 90%? This all makes me so angry
Unfortunately, this is so true :( Also, I think when you're the partner who's pressing for therapy, be prepared that therapy will uncover wrongs on your side too. Healing is for everyone.
Yep. My ex and I went once. The therapist with long leg slit in her skirt, won over by my ex, told my ex that he didn't need to return with me.
24 straight couples therapy sessions with my narcissistic alcoholic ex, and everything was still my fault, and he didn’t have a drinking problem. Our 15-yo twins knew he was an alcoholic without any input from me. They still dislike him for his dishonesty, 20 years later.
The car rides home together were the worst 😢Also, “date nights” were a sad joke.
Hello how are you doing??
This is so true... And I've also found in my years it applies to familial relationships too...
Yes , absolutely correct. My last therapist told / explained this to me clearly. Thank you for your invaluable short talks 🙏🏻❤
My husband has been diagnosed as having schizoid traits & Narcissistic traits ( controlling, manipulative, lying, gaslighting, blame shifting, non co operative, passive aggressive ) - he agreed to go for family therapy in 2018 as he felt I was the problem needing psychologist's intervention. He stopped going after 3-4 months . He told me he would listen to (?) only that (which the therapist told) which he wanted to accept . Obviously he stopped going after 3 or 4 months when it was not making him happy / comfortable. And he also manipulated & influenced the earlier psychotherapist & gaslighted me. What an experience
Excellent advice. Can't squeeze water out of stone.
My brother's ex wife would walk out of therapy. She didn't want to hear what a mess she is.
This was exactly my experience, we ended in divorce, we are friends and coparents, I’m 100% happier. Thank you for validating what I felt
Ooooh yeah this happened to me when I tried family therapy with my siblings. Me and one of my siblings showed up and did the work but we couldn’t really solve anything without the other sibling willing to make changes and take ownership of her actions
Yeah. I took my husband, who ASKED TO GO. It was obvious it wasn’t going to work. My therapist scolded me for not agreeing to couples bcs “he really wants this to work”. Excuse me, who has been married to this man for 25 years? Not you. Narc’t in it to undermine my one support source. It worked.
My opinion: In couples therapy, each partner needs to be inward focused and analyzing themselves in knowing how they individually can improve the relationship. If the other partner does not have that mentality, then its up the the individual to decide and see if this relationship is right for them. Its not about changing the other person. That is impossible and shouldnt be the point
My ex refused point blank to go to therapy. I left. We both needed better communication skills. I might have been able to get him there by admitting there were things I was afraid to talk to him about but it just would have prolonged the agony.
Thats not a good thing to do.
@@miraclestivender651 I was tired of bleeding. It's not about good or bad but survival
@@samanthagreen1827 thanks 👍 I am
Glad I didn’t bother. I don’t think my husband has the ability even to be self aware or be emotionally mature. He’s been so shut down for so long his emotional development is actually stunted and I can’t see him changing. He really only ever wanted a mother to look after him who could also be a wife. And that’s all he’ll ever want as far as I can tell. There will be no future where we have conversations and discussions on different topics like other people. His understanding of life is so limited, there is no meaningful feedback he can ever give me on anything except what to buy at the supermarket, what to have for dinner, what night he is going out & which family event is coming up.
It either makes or breaks you , it broke us
Only one ex of mine ever brought up "counseling " to me as something we needed to try to stay together. I broke up with her the following day and never looked back. I have since been with someone now for almost 10 years who loves me for me.
Patrick: I imagine this applies to family and ANY group therapy too, where it involves more than one person. Great video / great message.
So true. I'm polyamorous and in two long-term relationships, and I'm in couples therapy with both of my partners. It's kind of routine maintenance for us. I don't think either couples therapy would be very productive if we weren't all in individual therapy as well. It's really essential to be working on yourself as an individual if you want your relationship(s) with your partner(s) to continue improving. Especially if you're dealing with childhood trauma and learning to self-advocate and reparent your inner child, you need to bring those insights into your conversations with your partners so that they can understand how you're changing and growing as a person. The relationship might change, too, and a partner who supports healthy change still needs time to process and negotiate how those changes might impact them.
That's really mature of all of you, if you can make it work. I was into some poly scenes in my twenties, but, "long term", multiple relationships were almost always bad news.
@@mjreikiriot3302 Well, I've been with my spouse for 27 years and my boyfriend for 8, so...so far so good?
@@mjreikiriot3302 it's not for everyone, but not everyone's built the same. Some people are very happy with it. I say to each their own. Life should be about what satisfies us and makes us happy as long as we're not harming anybody else in the process.
Just the concept of "couple therapy" blows my mind lol I couldn't imagine having a therapist also mediate the relationship in real time because I can't even concept having a relationship in that time
Isn't it ironic how the only couples that would actually benefit from couples therapy are people who probably wouldn't need couples therapy to begin with because they already be open to communication
Truth. Been there, never worked.
Glad I saw this first. I’m considering going with my covert narc husband who can only see things through his eyes. I told him this and he says he doesn’t understand. I am done with this marriage and now he is wanting to go because I have brought it up in the past. I was thinking maybe if he hears it from another man that his behavior is extremely abusive then he will see and self reflect. He thinks threatening me at gun point isn’t abuse and I’m being a drama queen. I hope I can survive this marriage for a few more months till I can escape it.
This!!!! Absolute truth!
What causes people to marry only later learning they can’t stand one another? Why does this happen over and over?
(1) Abusers are good at hiding who they are until they have you trapped (marriage, children, you are financially dependent on them)
(2) It's normal for couples to lose the spark and get sick of each other, not always but it happens. People change and won't always want the same things in a relationship.
Depends. Just retired after forty years as a couples and individual therapist. What people present at the beginning is sometimes a defensive cover and can be permeated. The reverse can be true as well. That is - you can get someone who seems able to self reflect and change but then you find their difficulties are too entrenched for the moment you are trying to help them. I say that because none of us in the business are everyone’s cup of tea. Timing and personality matter and sometimes they do better with another therapist. All parties should be open to that possible outcome.
Thank you! Exactly. I will be saving and sharing this video.👍🔥❤️⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐
He perfectly describes my S.O... unfortunately I've already come to this realization. Still super informative.
Also true if they’re only going because they have a problem with you. After years of begging my ex to go to couples’ with me, she finally agreed because she was very angry with me about something I’d done.
It didn’t last long. She stonewalled me every time I’d ask her to practice exercises the therapist suggested at home with me. Then she quit after a handful of sessions because the therapist didn’t take her side that I was the problem, or fully believe her overly rosy stories about her personal life aside from me, and encouraged her to take accountability for her part in our issues.
If one partner has a controlling agenda of any kind (“I’ll get someone else to tell you how bad you are”; “I’ll make you do what I want”; “I’ll do this so you’ll shut up asking”), I don’t think couples’ can work. It’s a block against true investment in changing their own part in things if they’re focussed on changing you instead.
thank you so much for saying that! you described precisely how i felt in my relationship with my ex-husband, and i always had that regret that we never went to therapy.
Is it possible for a therapist to accidentally gaslight the "victim" because the manipulator is working his/her magic on the therapist?
Yes
Yes
Ab-so-lutely!
Later in a private session, our therapist, unprompted, told me I would probably never find another partner so good-looking and desirable.
She was SO swayed by his charm and entitled position within our small community. Turned out he was a massive philanderer.
It happens all the time. Sending love❤
Seems like there are a lot of incompetent, weak-minded therapists out there so unfortunately based on what I've heard, it would seem that the answer is yes.
It's really true. People have to come to their own conclusion. It doesn't matter how well you explain a concept to someone if they are commited to not understanding.
As a fellow therapist, I agree. Don't put unrealistic hopes in therapy. If you work on yourself and they don't work on themselves, we can't make you a happy couple, ever. If you're on a path of emotional maturity, appreciate what you bring into a relationship and don't give it away so cheap. Even if that means staying single for a while because a lot of people won't match in that regard.
Thank you for this 🙏🏾
Amen! And if they’re a narcissist, they can play the therapist.
So perfectly said. Thanks putting this video out! -fellow couples therapist
THANK YOU PATRICK! My narc sister wants us to go to family therapy to "fix my behavior "...first of all, the bad behavior she is referring to is just me establishing boundaries. Two, as you said, since she is in fact a narcissist who may have NPD therapy is doomed to fail
Truth. Both people have to want to value the relationship enough to work or it’s a no go.
dude, well said, needed to hear that
I haven’t done couples counseling before but I’ve done family counseling and it seems similar. My parents sent me to counseling for years because I was the problem but in all reality they should’ve been going themselves individually because they had demons not dealt with, they were shut off. So as you can imagine being in the same room together gets nothing done when one person has worked on themselves understand there own psychology and why someone else may be acting a certain way and family dynamic better and the rest have never put any effort into it. Counseling only works if you let it. I’m surprised they don’t recommend individual counseling before couples counseling. If you have to force someone to try you might as well pack up and leave.
True talk my man
My issue with therapy is they charge 100-200 an hour and expect you to go every week for months, with no guarantee it will solve anything.
It should be free. So many people need therapy and bad things happen when they don't get it. Look at the crime rates.
@@psychicbyinternetfree?! So how is the therapist supposed to live? Do you know how many years and post graduate work it takes to become a therapist?! Not to mention hundreds of dollars to keep the license in good standing?! I just have to laugh at therapy being free…🤣🤣🤣
And nothing is guaranteed in life other than death. The therapist isn’t a miracle worker. You and your partner will have to do the work and if it doesn’t work then you know that it may be time to end the relationship and move forward.
could you do a couples council roleplay? im only familiar with pop culture couples counciling, where its treated as a last resort and a joke. Me and my boyfriend both have ptsd and we want to do couples counciling, but we're happily dating, so idk what that would look like
I've also heard of a manipulative person pushing their spouse to couples counseling. That manipulative person has a degree in psychology, and probably managed to get the counselor on their side to "change the spouse". Their spouse isn't perfect, of course, but ask anyone who knows them and people will tell you that the spouse isn't the problem there.
I was the one doing all of the emotional work in the relationship. I was masking my ASD at the time as well and it drained me so hard.
xactly, my ex said.. well we go to your stupid therapy, why aren't you happy yet?
I would imagine this would cross over into any therapy where you bring in someone else.
Reply Yes and No. Family therapy is different/ siblings is different. Family therapy, the changes needed are often small and can't divorce your family. Marriage is very different! It requires a lot more work and both need to be 100 percent committed.
This is very hurtful information. EQ can be taught and on average men drag their feet to therapy but I’ve had plenty of couples come out better ( initially resistant partner glad they came). It took trauma work and a lot of psycho ed and processing
And the therapist is blamed .... (therapist here) . Doing couple therapy is a challenge for most therapists. They need to be on the side of the marriage AND call out bad behavior and do it with finesse--Terry Real 's paradigm seems to be the best one currently IMO.
Truth. Been there, done that. Didn’t work. Too bad the couples therapist didn’t say that to us.
We have a great therapist. I can't say enough good things about him. However, my wife isn't self aware at all and never spent time reflecting at all on her own behavior. He's been honest with me saying I can either deal with her the way she is or get a divorce. He's right. Over the years I stayed because my kids were young, though in hindsight, the answer was to divorce. She cries to start every session and it comes off like she's caring and throws the sessions off. All fingers are pointed at me. He used to attempt to set her straight and would personally get upset about her gaslighting me and him. We all bring issues into a marriage, though if one partner has the ability to look within and determine their part and the spouse doesn't, then no therapist can break through no matter how incredibly skilled. My biggest issue is frustration attempting to get through to her. All she does is look at me with a blank look, plays the victim, and deflects everything back at me.
So true.
An intervention that might work well for this is "Emotional Focussed Therapy." Individuals who are shut off from their emotions can benefit a lot because the therapist gives them a process to be able to get in touch with their internal experience. You don't need to be "psych minded." We as LMFT's have a much different interpretation as what it means to be "psych-minded" than the general public.
Did this , and 💯 agree Patrick ! My partner is Not psych minded
I'm a Nordic personality, INTP and my wife is of Bavarian ancestry and ENFJ. Also, she's religious and I'm not. We still have an intact 28 year marriage. We just try harder.
Thanks for sharing this Patrick. Can you please also share about this beautiful blue shellset in the back? :))
Fact! I'm about to be divorced for the same thing. I wish I listend to you
Right on!
Great point
This is the same in family dynamics and parent child relationships.
Simply put, couples therapy is usually just an expensive way to end a relationship.
So helpful!
Thank you for making this video
When a third person has to come and tell you how to better love each other, it’s usually over. Also, if you have to convince someone about how you feel and they don’t respect your emotions, just imagine how much a third person’s advice will matter.
And thats why I took my ex seriusly when his reaction to me sugestion getting help for our issues was "ha no, I'd rather break up". He was to prowed to creep back when I took that very siriously, but I doged a bullet for sure. I am now happyliy married with kids, sure its not always easy, sometimes we go withbout our needs met cuz thats pare ting life, but we can talk and suport eachother, my husband went through intens therapy bevore we got together and made me go too cuz I needed it.
haha “do do”
Exactly!!
Yeah, my husband still doesn't believe he had any problem whatsoever, and it affects us still almost as bad as it did when he was still around because we have a daughter together.
I recall hearing somewhere that couple's therapy has something like an 80% failure rate. I'm not sure if that statistic is still up to date, but if so, that's pretty brutal and makes me think either the method isn't working or people just don't know how to have functional relationships at all.
Both parties have to work at it.
I would not even entertain the idea. I have been in and out of therapy for many years. This does not mean it would be productive to even try. Each therapist had their own reservations about couples therapy. I rarely asked him.it Always NO.
Yup, that’s why I know therapy is not for me.
So true!
Well im screwed lol
If you're thinking about couple's counseling then your relationship is over. There's the harsh truth.
The success rate is 2%. 2% of couples who go to couples counseling fix the relationship and 100% of the people are better off afterwards. You're not the 2%, end the relationship. Otherwise you're just prolonging the inevitable.
And be kind about it. Don't be an asshole.
Very true!!!