Qattara Depression: Can We Fill It?
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- čas přidán 27. 07. 2024
- Humanity will halt sea level rise in the next century. But how will we lower it back down? This is an introduction to the West Sea, codenamed Project Endor. The West Sea megaproject will be the largest artificial lake in the world. It takes advantage of the Qattara Depression, an area of land that lies below sea level which, when filled, will hold enough water to lower global sea levels 3mm. It will erase an entire year of sea level rise from the record, and then kickstart an ecosystem revival cascade, fundamentally altering the climate of Egypt and the surrounding areas for years to come.
Recorded July 27th, 2020
[TIMESTAMPS]
0:00 Introduction
0:34 What is the biggest threat to our civilization?
1:44 What can we do with the extra water?
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3:28 Candidates for seawater relocation
4:57 The Danakil depression
6:23 The Qattara depression
7:19 The West Sea proposal
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9:15 Impact 1: Direct water storage
10:22 Impact 2: Heat sequestration
12:56 Impact 3: Greening of the Sahara/Sinai
15:07 Impact 4: Seawater mining
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19:14 Envisioning the West Sea
22:43 Wrap-up
[QUOTES]
1:16 “One percent of humanity lives within one meter of sea level. That’s a lot of people. Those are our cities and our towns and our ports. That’s where all of human infrastructure is - our global connection to trade, to resources, to languages and religions - all of that is near the ocean. It’s on the coast. And so a small rise in sea level will disproportionately affect the human species more than any other species on this planet.”
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5:55 “A very long time ago, this was a lake just like the American Great Lakes, just like the Caspian sea, just like those other places I showed you. This was a lake! The difference is, it is dried out. So! We have here a prime candidate - it’s close to the shore, it’s massive, and it might be able to make a difference in helping us fight sea level.”
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9:41 “We will actually lower the sea level by about 3 millimeters. We’re going to fit all of that into a little lake in the Egyptian desert. That’s an entire year [of sea level rise] we can erase from the record.”
10:10 “That is the volume of Niagara Falls.”
11:40 “The ground will cool off that water as it flows through. We’re actually going to take the hottest water in the Mediterranean and channel it, and store all of that [heat] in the ground, here beneath this plateau.”
12:20 “So we’re actually going to be cooling the PLANET just by drilling a little tunnel and sending some water through it.”
14:47 “There are actually ancient riverbeds on this entire peninsula [the Sinai Peninsula]. This area used to get regular rainfall. 6,000 years ago this area was green like the savannah.”
15:31 “The ocean has every element on Earth dissolved into that water - it’s just spread out. You need a lot more water to get the same amount of resources. However, if you do the math, there is a LOT of water on this planet.”
17:15 “This is our filtration system for the world’s oceans. We can pull out tons and tons of resources from the ocean, in extremely large volumes … enough to sustain entire economies.”
18:53 “Seawater mining is a revolution in eco-friendly resource acquisition, because there’s no destroyed environments. We don’t have to chop up a rainforest to mine this metal in this part of the world. We don’t have to use toxic acids to draw veins of resources out of the rock.”
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20:25 “It won’t take long, because this is the desert and it’s very hot, that it will start to evaporate, and when it evaporates we will get rain - the first rain some of the Sahara desert has seen in thousands of years.”
21:07 “It’s not going to be that hard to change the face of the Sahara desert. It’s ‘Just add water’.”
21:28 “This, and I want to stress this to you, is bigger than you can imagine. This goes on TO THE HORIZON. When you are standing on the shores of this lake it will feel like you are standing on the shore of the ocean.”
22m48s “We are going to build the sixth largest lake in the world. It’s going to store water, it’s going to store heat, and it’s going to store carbon. It’s going to restore a six thousand year old ecosystem. It’s going to be a breakthrough in environmentally friendly resource acquisition. And on top of all of that, it’s going to be beautiful.”
The harsh reality: the Qattara depression is connected to the Sand Stone Nubian Aquifer which is the largest source of drinkable underground water in the Sahara. By filling the depression up, you just turned all that fresh water into brackish water. By filling the depression up, you put millions of acres of farm land out of course due to increased salinity of the soil. And by the way, if you fill it up you're not going to fill just the Qattara depression with water, you're going to fill all the oases of the Western Desert with salty water.
I think that’s not right. The size and connection of the Nubian Sandstone Aquifer System is more myth than a proven reality. Most research made on this ancient water reservoir is very old, based more on rather inaccurate calculations than real-life measurements. Some years ago I did some research but didn’t found modern reliable sources in science papers.
Some also are claiming, that Ghaddafi already pumped out a lot of the more edible water of the upper water layer with the Great Man-made River Project (GMMR) in Libya.
The groundwater type varies from fresh to slightly brackish (salinity ranges from 240 (upper layer) to 1300 ppm (lower layer). Although I know from a recent SEKEM drilling project near the El-Bawiti Oasis (near Quattara Sink), that the deep water they found there already had a salinity around 2000 ppm. This water has to be desalinated for long-term use in agriculture & drinking.
In modern days with seawater desalination costs around 40 cent/m³ for medium size systems it can be cheaper to desalinate seawater than drilling 1500m deep into the floor to find brackish water that still has to be pumped a very long way up.
Second: The Million years old Nubian Aquifer is protected by a 400m thick stone & clay layer. Maybe more than thick enough to be protected even against the “Quattara Sea”, which in newer times had been filled up with a connection to Mediterranean salty sea. Was there an brackish inflow? Don't think so.
Did someone made research with modern but expensive instruments in the last years about the real situation? I believe not.
According to a recent ARTE (German/France television) documentation a lot of Egypt oasis already have a big salinity problem and are running slowly out of potable water. One Google Earth you can see, that a lot of former date palm plantages seem to be already given up.
Maybe a seawater desalination near the filled up Quattara sink is exactly the right thing to save a lot of the oasis through a pipe system?
True
If the transaqua project will be done to restore lake Chad by connecting it to Congo basin the Qattara depression might be filled with fresh water through the sand stone Nubian aquifer.
Wouldn’t the loss of water from underground water be offset by more rain? The cooler temperatures will also make farming easier. Also the salt from the sea can be extracted. Lithium is in the ocean which has gone up due to electric battery cost. Magnesium is also plentiful in the ocean and this is a valuable metal. Perhaps mangroves can be planted on the coast of the lake to also help filter salt. Also you will get more fish in the lake for food. The benefits will outweigh the negatives.
Yes that is right
@@ahmedelnabawy2999 need 2000 year
2 thoughts apart from the salt problem:
1) dimension: This is a miniature version of the Mediterranian. The Med evaporates more water than it receives by rivers. It constantly needs an influx from the Atlantic at Gibraltar. Hence the higher salt content and the significally lower sea level. Fun fact: I recently learned that Germany measures Sea level at the North Sea, while Switzerland measures at the Adriatic coast. Therefore the height numbers they put on maps are different, which already lead to problems in binational projects. But if the Med doesn't have a real impact on sea level rising, how would this Qattara project?
2) thermodynamics: The mentioned cooling effect of the tunnel is a one time event. The ground stays at constant temperature because ground is a pretty bad heat conductor. So pretty soon the hot water will heat up the tunnel, and this heat will have nowhere to go. So you enter a new equilibrium, and that's it. Just like the London Tube, where they unfortunatelly forgot ventilation. So when the Tube was opened, it was advertised as a cool place in the summer heat. Today it's a hot sweaty mess, and you're glad when you're out.
the London Tube should be a great heat source for heat pumps
I'm egyptian, we know about that
we had many ideas, we just need to go forward
qattara WAS a sea before,, the ground is salty, it has a layer of 400 m compacted soil and few meters of salt below the sand
it would increase rain massively
specially in sinai , because of wind blowing east, no mountains except in south sinai, and there is a basin of an ancient river that does exist there called al arish valley, it has flash floods. sinai was once a forest, the pharoahs used to get wood from there.
qattara can solve huge problems and become a major source of direct and indirect income
we need it
I didn’t know the south Sinai was called the Al Arish valley or that the pharaohs used that area to gather wood. Thank you for teaching me that!
I wish you success. A few large diameter tunnel boring machines can make this project a reality, generate massive amounts of green energy and transform the climate of north Africa.
In my opinion it would be a huge project and would be something forth North Africa and the EU. I suspect we need somewhat in the order of 100 bn € to get proper results, but energy, food, water, ressources should more than make up for it.
And to be honest, if we dont start some level of Terra forming now or very soon, we will have problems.
اول مصرى بيفهم أقابله 💯
The regions on Sinai where the rains would fall are covered by soil, even sandy?
Question: how will it not turn into a giant salt flat?
Evaporation in the area would be much more than the gained rain, therefore to maintain its lever water would constantly need to be replenished from the Mediterranean sea, increasing in salinity until the salt itself will begin to precipitate towards the bottom, filling it up until we get possibly the biggest salt flat in the world.
It _would_ be constantly replenished from the Mediterranean sea. That replenishment can produce electricity as well (because of the level difference). And the salt can be captured and sold (like on Dead Sea) for additional profit.
@@ZvonimirFras only a percentage of the salt would have commercial use. And the energy needed to desalinate the water would likely be more then that generated by the pipes. We would need better desalination technology for this to work.
Exactly, it would need an outflow to make any real sense.
@@peterwarner553 An outflow is the only way i see this project being viable as well
It already is a giant salt flat.
What about the massive build up of salt in the Qattara? If the flow from the sea is only in one direction, you are effectively moving large quantities of salt that, unless removed, will keep increasing the salinity.
Above a certain salinity, any organism in it will die. This is pretty much what happened with the Salton Sea/Lake
What is the Qattara but a massive salt pan anyway? It's like the Salar de Atacama but hotter and dryer.
@@rolandscales9380 well, then he shouldn't say "it will be beautiful with beaches and stuff", he should say "for a little bit, it will be beautiful, with beaches and stuff, then all fish will die and rot, and then it'll be very salty and with no fish but ok"
@@niccoloricardi4827 there are fish in the place where there was desert?
@@ryanbell6672 they'll get into the Qattara with the water from the Mediterranean
It would turn into dead sea, but active XD
But tbh if you want to extract fresh water from sea, you'll always have salt as waste.
Maybe you can sell it dirt-cheap, or Maybe you can just leave it to accumulate as kind of storage.
Glad to see this idea being revived. The Turfan Depression could be filled by diverting water from the Yenisei River but that's far, far less economical than Qattara.
Thanks Patrick!
My favourite alternative is in ethiopia, the Danakil depression!
Why not fill the Qattara Depression up with water from the River Nile? This same water would enter the ocean in the end, so if it is diverted, the same math concerning lowering the sea levels would still stand, you just catch the water before it turns salty, and that’s the catch. This way you can fill in the lake AND the underground aquifers not with salty water, but with freshwater, therefore replenishing all the oasis systems, probably allowing a few more oases to appear and many new freshwater springs to be born, thus securing an invaluable source of drinking and irrigation water for the local population and ecosystem.
Dunno if you've noticed but the Egyptians are not big on diminishing the flow of the Nile.
The Nile would not be able to keep it filled, as country to the south pull water out for use in towns, cities and farming.
And if you sent all thats left to the Lake, the cities to the coast would die off, the ship Canal to the Red Sea would dry up.
Its far easier to remove the salt from the sea than to use a river that can be blocked in another country.
Last thing is..... people live in the bottom of this new yet to be lake.
Unfortunately you only delay the inevitable. Freshwater still contains salt, that's how it gets into the oceans. In fact a certein amount of salt is needed to make freshwater drinkable. So as a result you create a 2nd Dead Sea. All the salt there was washed in by the Jordan river, a freshwater source. It will take time, granted, but it will happen.
@@senecasenior9574 makes you wonder why lakes aren't salty, but I guess that's to do with having an outlet
Yeah.. the Nile is tapped out.. no one wants to increase evaporation of nile water 😅
Wow! And not a paragraph of thoughts about the energy generation by the altitude difference!
Actually, I really liked the idea of the seawater mining taking place at the entry part of the canal/tunnel, rather than inside this future inland lake.
Well done!
He does mention mining uranium from the sea, for no particular reason...
Gravity hydroelectric seems obvious, till the thing (lake, lagoon, reservoir?) fills anyway.
Would the inland sea be subject to tides? That energy could be harnessed, too.
Obviously the biggest thread to mankind is the fast and vast proliferating of stupid people. This fancy chart here shows a sea level rise of average 3 mm a year. I hope he did not miscalculate external influences like water temperature, saline levels, sun position, wind direction, etcetera in his calculations. All of which can individually skew his measurements by more than 3 mm per year.
The initial filling would have to be done by the ocean. The maintaining of the water would have to be done by either fresh water or massive desalination projects. Very cool though, I hope we figure out how to do this safely.
Two questions and a very minor quibble:
1. Why aren't the tunnels farther east, where the distance between the sea and the depression is narrower?
2. Why not pipelines? I'd think they'd be much easier to construct, and once you got them filled with water (using pumps, I imagine) they'd siphone water out of the Mediterranean.
Quibble: If it's been 6000 years since there's been rain, I doubt there are many viable seeds for the predicted superbloom.
A siphon can only lift water about 10m, equal to air pressure.
Greatest threat to civ is the growth of state power at the expence of individual freedom and thus to innovation. Only through innovation can we solve problems such as Climate or sea lvl rise
> I doubt there are many viable seeds
Winds from the Sahara (Sirocco) send tons of sand to Europe. So I think there might be some seeds that have been brought from other places
I have had this idea for 10 years and have found that it has been proposed many times in the past. I learned some new ideas fro your talk like the sea mining part, but you are also missing at least 3 key points. (1) Pumping sea water into that hole over decades will result in a supersaline lake due to evaporation and more and more salt going in year after year followed by evaporation. Then there will be problems like with the Salton Sea and the limited fresh water in the ground in that area (which people are using) will be contaminated, (2) so fresh water should be used, which can be done in two ways. First you dig a canal and diver some Nile River water into the hole and second you build huge desalination plants either near the coast with the brine pumped back out into the sea and or near the drop off in either case with large salt pans to pump the brine into for evaporation and recovery of the dry sea salt, (3) There should be a hydro electric function at the drop off to harvest the energy produced by gravity pulling the water down. That electricity can then be used for the desalination plants as well as large arrays of solar panels nearby. Maybe some desalination would be done at the coast with nearby salt pans, and some done near the drop off with sea mining done in the tunnels. If enough water can be sent into the hole, at the far end you build pipelines to send water further our for desert greening as well as hope for new rainfall too.
This idea of creating a sea by digging a tunnel is fascinating, and the opportunities are inspiring to think about. One of the opportunities you mention though I am a bit sceptical about. You mention that the evaporation will lead to more rain, giving necessary life to arid regions. I am sure there will be some impact, but when the mediteranian sea has been just around the corner from this relatively minor sea, I am not sure that this body of water will bring "rain to places witch haven't seen rain in hundreds of years". Do you have sources which support this claim? Having said that, the other opportunities, each on their own sketchy as they may be, combined are very promising.
Wind patterns. The wind in the Mediterranean doesn’t blow much moisture south into the Sahara (generally). There’s also the issue of elevation: the Sahara doesn’t have much elevation along the Mediterranean coast, and mountains are great cloud generators (moisture goes UP over them, and becomes cool in that higher altitude, leading to clouds/rain).
However, while the Mediterranean wind doesn’t blow towards places like the Sinai, wind from the Qattara region does. So if we add moisture upwind from a mountainous place like the Sinai, we can restart the water cycle there. I won’t claim lush rainforests, but I can promise greenery. Enough for streams and rivers to form in the region, and enough for agriculture
@@alexwestisbest What about the salt? Do you propose desalinating prior to sending the water down tunnel? would the energy generated from the filling be enough to run that desalination?
A similar-ish thing I've been wondering about: The Don, which flows into the Black Sea, comes very close at one point to the Volga, which flows into the Caspian. On Google Maps it appears to be about fifty kilometers from Vertyachii on the Don to Volgagrad on the Volga. I wonder how hard it would be to divert some of the water from the Don into the Caspian to start refilling it, or at least help slow its drying.
A canal has connected the Volga with the Don since 1952. Since the Don is higher then the Volga, all of the water in the canal comes from the Don, but the Don has less water volume then the Volga and even less where the present canal exists. Worse, water from the Don has to RISE 44 Meters to the highest point on the canal, then down 88 Meters to the Volga,
The much longer route from the Sea of Azov to the Caspian sea is viewed as the better option for the high point is only 27 meters above the Don when it enters the Sea of Azov AND that route would be downstream of the Donets, the Don Rivers main tributary (thus more fresh water for the Caspian sea). The propose canal would only take fresh water from the Don just before the Don flows into the Sea of Azov, which connects directly with the Black Sea.
A canal already exists on that route, but it is shallow and used mostly to supply fresh water between the Sea of Azov and the Caspian Sea.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurasia_Canal
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuma%E2%80%93Manych_Canal
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurasia_Canal
There are also many sizable cities on the shores of the Caspian Sea/that are below sea level.
Baku, Azerbaijan: 2,236,000
Rasht, Iran: 679,995
Makhachkala, Russia: 587,876
Astrakhan, Russia: 475,629
Atyrau, Kazakstan: 290,700
So although there is still a lot of water that the Caspian basin can hold (surface level is 92 feet below sea level) , it is probably one of the most populated basins, so there isn’t as much benefit.
@@paulmentzer7658 was going to respond the same but you did it perfectly, I'm obssessed with this idea of reffiling the Caspian via this lower route, seems so feasible, and the Caspian actually needs it since its going down each year
Effectively, this would, over time, create a vast salt mine in the area. Still, it would offset the sea level rise everyone is afraid of, it would create new rainy areas like you describe, and it would moderate the severe climate of that part of the Sahara. See also the Afar/Danakil depression of Ethiopia and Eritrea.
Yup! You’re right. It would create a buildup of salt in a few hundred years.
One of the things I’m looking into is the funding from selling new “beachfront” property and from “seawater mining”. Obviously it would be used to pay off the investment and handle maintenance, but I think there will be enough to construct a larger sea connection next century to allow water to flow both directions, making the lake forever sustainable.
@@alexwestisbest Ultimately, you would have to have a sea-level canal to do that, which would be even more costly.
@@NickB1967 yup. The tunnels make the initial project affordable,, the great ROI over time allows us to afford the big investments needed to make the project permanently sustainable 😁
@@alexwestisbest Maybe it is possible to pump out the colder, higher concentrated heavy “deep-level” saltwater taken out by a horizontal convection tunnel at ground level (-120m Sea Level). At Mediteranean Sea the water will be pumped out of a big well linked with the “Quattara Sea”. With a maximum heavy pressure of ~12bar a small pipe can press a lot of water, ending in a big well at the Mediteranean shore.
The outflow back to Mediteranean only has to be the size of the evaporation. At some point the inflow - outflow scales to a balanced salt concentration level. If this salination level stays under 10%, maritime life is still low enough for a great variety of animals and plants capable of living in this sea.
Fishing industry, Seawater based agriculture, tourism, all this would create endless new jobs. Hope you understand what i mean - my english could be better.
@@alexwestisbest This leads to a solution for a big egyptian fiasko: The Nile Delta has a huge problem with land sinking (10mm/Year) and saltwater intrusion due to lack of enough fresh water and sediments (holded back by Assuan Dam). By end of this century most of the delta is below sea-level. So there is a MUST to find a solution. The excavation material of the hypothetical sea-level quattara canal could be used to form a big dam around parts of the Nil delta like the dutch did with the Ijsselmeer. Back in the 50's they stopped the saltwater instrusion and created thousands square miles of new land called Flevoland. czcams.com/video/8ir1Vj1D930/video.html&ab_channel=HistoryScope
This was actually a great presentation, this needs more views man
Thank you! I appreciate the compliment. I refined this presentation over 6 months before giving it. You should have seen version 1! It was AWFUL
@@alexwestisbest I am also interested on how the fishing industry would be like in the would be Qattara lake since Egypt is the only exclusive territory it's in, would there be a variety of fishes living in that lake? I think it would produce tons of fishes on a yearly basis.
@@NoVisionGuy unfortunately, the salt content would be too high for fish. It would take about 200 years for us to balance the lake, after which we could introduce fish and plants just like the ocean. So… eventually yes!
@@NoVisionGuy, fisheries would only be possible and, yes, profitable, near the exit of the canal/tunnel where the seawater would first pool; further away the evaporation would create the extreme saltiness.
What a great way to waste a year and a half of your life on something knows for a century and left abandoned for multiple reasons. I don't want to waste time to explain in details as I'm finding your depth of research very shallow. Simply you a lost cause.
If you built a giant dam along the middle of the Qattara Depression 'lake' about 60 km (doable but not cheap or easy) long, then you could have a northern end that remained only as saline as the water from the Mediterranean and it could flow into the south end which would over time become more and more salty, but eventually would be useful for evaporatively extracting salts from the water, like on the south end of the Dead Sea. This would create a whole new permanent 'sea' ecosystem on the north end, and it would generally remain a place that people would want to keep living on the shores of. You could also generate hydroelectricity and desalinate the sea water using the water flowing into the basin.
While the Qattara Depression is definitely the largest such basin, there are other opportunities to do something similar, including with a tunnel from the Mediterranean Sea to the Dead Sea, and some other smaller depressions in North Africa.
The height difference can be used to desalinate the sea water. I had this idea too as a kid, but it was too costly to desalinate all the water back then (people told me). Can't allow the salt down, that would ruin the ecosystem.
How about hydro power to remove the salt via desalination?
Though some of the marshes there are already salty, it shouldn't be added to.
Reverse osmosis is still too expensive.
Gravity desalination is always a great idea. Would it be able to fill the lake fast enough?
@@SherifRok-cw8kx gravity desalinization is not reverse osmosis
I really do like this idea, however there is one major problem that you don't account for that being the problem of salt. As sea water flows in its going to bring salt, the water will evaporate but leave the salt behind. Over time it will become increasingly salty until it appears more like the Aral, or dead seas, wrecking the area.
Wrecking what exactly? There's nothing there.
guess in a few 1k years it will be a new "salt-mine"
If you read some of the other comments from locals, they mention that the depression is already very salty from it's past history. So yes this is going to one very salty sea. Aside from lowering rich countries ocean levels, the most likely gain would be rain down wind from the salt lake. The wind blows to the West, it normally feeds dust to the Eastern Amazon rain forest.
But they do need to be sure they do not contaminate the ground water.
@@ebaab9913 Why not make it even saltier. Install water desalination plants at the end of the tunnels, desalinate the incoming water for freshwater, and let the brine water flow into the depression. Egypt's dead sea can be a tourist attraction, like the dead sea in Jordan/Israel.
Also the qattara depression is connected to the largest groundwater aquifer in egypt (several oasis in it). Poisoning that aquifer would decimate desert wildlife and agricultural water supply in many parts of egypt, which is why this project was rejected many times in the past.
If there is a way to desalinate the water first, this project would be alot less risky.
So when is Egypt going to approve the construction of the tunnels and relocation efforts? Looks like a good idea to bring moisture to that new administrative capital they are building.
I just know Egypt has proven 5 possible options for Qattara project
I think Elon Musk is on the project.
@@NecromanSir from where did you knew that?
@@andrew1samoel It was an interview with him, I think you can find it here on CZcams.
Give the Egyptian Government (and the Army that controls it) time ... They've been considering the project for 'only' 90-100 years ... By the next millennium ...
Loved the video. Regardless of the practical issues its something we should be talking about and thinking about. Solving the salt problem is a billion dollar prize.
That's easy. Make it a solar pumped storage plant. At night fill it with water, by day pump it back out from the saltiest (furthest from inlet) part and up in to deset basins as a salt factory. Doesn't waste more energy than any other pumped hydro storage and not only removes salt but massively increases the energy harvesting potential (remember its basically in the worlds best solar power region) making it able to power large parts of north africa, and possibly exporting green hydrogen to europe on top
Man I just loved your presentation. I recently came accross this information that their is some kind of depression in Egypt and I was thinking to myself how on earth can we use it to lower the sea level rise. Your presentation is everything that I wanted to know. From here I can only wish EU or USA starts to fund this ASAP
One day I’d love to see this built! 🤞🏻Thanks for the comment.
Actually guys this project was first discussed in th 70's by the Egyptian government to use it for all the reasons that alex said but not the sea level changing because at this time it was not an issue
And by the way the Germany and Egypt discussed this project with all the possible ways to do it plus pros and cons in the mid of the 70's
Now the project is coming to the surface again to use it to produce rain so we can use it in Egypt since we are now have less water than before, so i really hope it happens and Egypt can afford 1.5 billion dollars to do it , no need for EU or USA to funde it, but anyone are welcome to help
Again i really want to see it in my lifetime since our government said it gonna take 40 to 60 years to fill it because filling it too fast probably going to make some earthquakes and affect the mineral water restored under ground.
Thanks alex for the video
@@andrew1samoel It was actually first discussed in the 1800's by some french guy when the British ruled Egypt. Been talked about, but now we have the resources and hopefully the will to actually do it.
@@alexwestisbest Hydropower plants in the end of tubes?
Great idea try to do it as soon as possible
With no outflow, this body of water will become increasingly saline. Not sure if that was factored in.
Increasingly saline? It's already a vast, geologically unstable salt bog, practically uninhabited and unable to support life. Even the Bedouins avoid it.
It wasn't in the video but the guy replying to another comment said that creating outflow tunnels back into the Mediterranean would would help balance salinity. I'm not sure why he said it was going to be clean water in his presentation though, but maybe it's a semantic thing, ie is seawater "dirty"?
Still, the salt filling up the depression would reduce sea levels..right?
Cool idea, impressive presentation. Will come back to this as an example of how to give a presentation.
The temperature of the Earth underground is not the same all the way down. Is the ground temperature at the depth of the tunnel, more or less than the temperature of the seawater flowing through the tunnel? If it is cooler, then how long before the temperature of the earth near the tunnel matches the temperature of the seawater flowing through?
Can you please do the same presentation on Chott El Jerid Tunisia? Also why didn't you include hydroelectric generation in the pros for qattara? isn't that possible not to fill all the way and maintain a steady flow from only one tunnel? I think that would be biggest selling point for this project. Also what about the nubian fresh water aquifer? isn't there a risk to elevate salinity? thanks in advance
It's possible to generate electric of what you say
Would some of the seawater mining filters be tuned to pull salts out of the water to prevent hyper salinity.
But, if we pull the drain plug, can we be sure to get it back in before the Oceans drain? When we dig down to mix magma with water will there be a go pro?
what is the hydroelectric potential ?
Hi !! Can someone tell me what would be the rate of evaporation (mm/day) of the lake ?
Is this going to be a salt water lake? If so it's going to get saltier and saltier. So how well do these filters work? That's the key. I think there is almost half a cup of salts in a gallon of water. What do you do with the unwanted salts? This is as problem for desalination in urban area use.
How do you deal with the ever increasing saline levels, as you say you need to keep adding sea water to maintain the new sea level as the newly imported sea water evaporates it leaves the salts behind so over time this will have a huge accumulative effect…. So what’s the plan for that? I do like the idea but I’d be worried of long term unintended (and undesirable) consequences.
The Idea is so old that even the French thought about it when they occupied Egypt about 300 years ago, but the way you have studied it taking in consideration all these factors is amazing. As an Egyptian, I wasn't really interested in this idea, but after this presentation I can't wait to see it done in real life. I hope you can find a way to bring this project to existence.
Might be better to get dubai to finance this. Or Musk's boring company.
But main issue is saline water . Saline water will destroy drinking water, soil, agriculture
@@parwindersinghwaraich2365
They are currently researching this.
The main concern is that the the soil below that area may not be isolated from ground water in surrounding areas but some geologists say there's a hard rocky layer below it, which might prevent sea water from mixing with fresh water reservoir in the western desert
Good. I am also working on it to make ocean water usable for agriculture and getting good results of my trials
@@parwindersinghwaraich2365
That's awesome, good luck with your research.
any calculations on the impact to the Mediterranean sea, as it drags sea water continuously in that direction, even at the Gibraltar gap. is there checks to see IF the weather patterns will turn the winds in other directions that could cause issues in other area's like flooding. We have to look at all pro's/con's over a wider area that can be potentially impacted, not just focus on region benefit's
Please advise what financial support you anticipate to come from the Egyptian Government as the key benefactor?
If you keep the water level 30 meters below sea level and add hydro you could generate close to 100 million a year in power. As for the aquafer nearby, it is at a higher elevation and the ground water flows to this depression not away so there shouldn't be any harm to it. A great idea that needs more though and real evaluation.
Is it feasible to desalinate the sea water before moving it to the depression. I.e. create a fresh water lake instead of a salty one?
use hydroelectricity generated by the elevation difference to power desalination plants.
No, not even remotely feasible. The guy in the video has commented that it would require about 365 times the world's current desalination capacity just to provide enough water each day to replace evaporation losses. (That is, the amount of water that's needed every day is about as much as the whole world desalinates in a whole year.)
How did you control your slides and make it work with hand snaps?
Interesting presentation, but how would it affect the existing water stored under the sand used for the local population.
how long will it take to fill it up , according to his plans ?
i would like to know were this water is rising i havent seen it anywere
Interesting talk. I've done a lot of thought experiments and "back of the envelope" sketches/calculations about this and enjoyed hearing your take on it. Harvesting the minerals is an intriguing idea. Kudos. I'm not sure if its cost effective to go after the salt. It may use most of the energy generated. Some of the depression may be low enough for gravity desalination if you abandon the idea of filling it. What do you think of adding a third (set?) of pipes installed lower to drain the denser salty water back to the Mediterranean? As with anything- one issue is the distance of the drain tunnel from lowest point back to the sea. Another might be finding a proper drain point in the sea. I don't know how salty the return water might be. (I'd need an AI computer model to adjust for changes to the river from the fill to the drain while it filled, slowed, and widened(and evaporation slowed further).) Would it have to be dumped at the edge of the continental shelf to ensure proper remixing? (Don't want a brine deadzone.)
Looked into tunneling in the States to divert flood waters and was quoted $500,000 a mile. So doubling or tripling the length adds up fast. Perhaps Musk's Boring Company would be a good resource & sounding board.
can we also flood the dead sea basin in the levant?
what app u r using to operate the slideshow from the smartwatch?
amazing!
I am astonished!
Any one know how big these tunnels would be? I would like a little more detail. Do we have tunnel machines that big around?
interesting suggestion the same is done for the red to deadsea canal.
wat are your thoughts about the increasing salinity of the new Lake.
Instead of filling with salt water they can divert Nile river during annual flood season and gradually fill it over a long time!.Now most of the Nile river ends up in the Mediterranean Sea!
Ok so I see people making the very obvious point of that adding sea water inland would just make farming impossible for the area. But let me ask you this, would it not also create new opportunities further inland from this new water source since evaporation from this watersource would generate new weather patterns in the area and increase overall humidity of the Sahara? (or at least this area of it).
Would the seawater mining help reduce the hyper salinity that would be caused by the evaporation
Nah, the seawater mining would be removing the trace metals from the water, like gold, for everything from smartphones to jewelry. We can already get salt anywhere we want 👍🏻
Caspian Sea's surface lies 30m below sea level, so plenty of room to fill in. As well as refilling Aral Sea.
With regard to cooling the water as it flows through the tunnel.. yeah for a few months or years maybe, but the ground around the tunnel will become heat saturated eventually.
For those who are not aware, this is not a new idea, its been discussed several times since the 19th century, at one point someone (Freidrich Bassler) even proposed the use of 200+ nukes to dig a canal to the Qattara Depression. For some strange 😉reason the idea was rejected. (Bassler probably should have read up on radiation) Anyhoo, this particular presentation, nice as it was, should have focused a bit more on the potential issues such as possible effects on nearby underground fresh water sources and also the simple fact that the amount of salt in the new lake /sea will rise continuously as water evaporates and leaves the salt behind. Desalinating the water before releasing it into the depression probably isn't feasible however.
Exactly. I was waiting for the presenter to reference the existing work. The whole presentation sounds dishonest without mentioning the previous attempts to do this, and why this idea failed originally.
The misfortunes of a people for a people are benefits, from the repercussions of Ethiopia’s construction of the Renaissance Dam with a storage capacity of 72 billion cubic meters. Egypt has planned to expand and deepen the Toshka depression next to the Aswan Dam at south to absorb as much fresh water as possible in the event of the collapse of the Grand Ethiopian Renaissance Dam. As a result, a new river course will be formed to the west, parallel to the Nile River, descending in the direction of the Qattara Depression, and thus there will be a high possibility of filling the depression with fresh water. And this: 1) Preserves the freshness of the water of all water wells for the benefit of the oases of all Egypt in the Western Desert. 2) limits the increase in salinization of agricultural and desert lands near the Qattara depression. It remains to innovate renewable energy sources in the depression, such as hydroelectric or photovoltaic, to create new attractions and communities on the banks of the Qattara Depression.
The scale on that graph is millimeters...so about the width of one of the letters in this sentence. It is a tiny increase in sea level...but way to expand that y-axis to make it look big
Considering myself a dreamer I can see how I can improve technical and still very high cost boring tunnels solutions. I would suggest above ground communicating vessels system. It would be like crude oil pump line only for water. A matter of few valves will be enough to flood the vessels / air release. The gravity would do the work. Starting with small diameter would be great advertisement for the project and testing the system for additional bigger and bigger diameter pipes until efficiency would beat evaporation process.
Is this like the thing we see in the movies desperate people do when they suck gasoline from a car tank? Are you proposing the same suction principle?
@@apostolosvranas4499 Exactly. Pure phisics.
@@galadorzgakharg Actually, physics tells you that a syphon can't lift water more than ten metres. The ridge you need to get the water over is 25 times that height.
Has there been any movement towards this project? A couple of years ago, there was some talk about the Boring company?
The boring company has since dropped the idea, with no further rumors on it for a while
Elevation: -86 m
Area: 3,000 square miles (7,800 km2)
Coordinates: 36°14′49″N 116°49′01″W / 36.24694°N 116.81694°W
Floor elevation: −282 ft (−86 m)
over the years ive seen many proposals to fill this depression with water. I don't accept all these conclusions presented here for many reasons but I do believe such a project would be a great benefit for people living in this area,
How many mm would the sea level drop if all of the Qattara Deoression was filled with water?
He said about 3mm.
@@beeble2003 Thanks, I missed that part
Great job you did, that was revolutionary... I am hoping that you would make a presentation about Chot Melghigh sea in the Algerian Tunisian Sahara desert... I would be so grateful thank you
Two years ago “the biggest threat is sea level rise”
I'm from egypt and given how corrupt my government are i have little hope that this project would see fruition however for the sake of humanity i hope i'm wrong and the dipshits in charge should see the benefits from this on economical and enviromental levels.
Don't feel bad. Egypt is only the second most corrupt country in the world.
i hope i will live long enough to see this project completed
nice presentation that everyone easily understand.ty
Out of all the megaprojects of the World this one is the cheapest and its impacts is huge. Can a foreigner buy land in Egypt?
what about electricity production? didnt mention it
I don't get it.
Is it a bad or good idea?
What about a nuclear power plant to boil all the salt water, would be cost effective if working 20 years?
I searched for Alex Westerlund and came across this message from last year:
" *Washington County: Man found dead in Mississippi River was reported missing in March*
The man whose body was pulled from the Mississippi River in Denmark Township last week died in a suicide by drowning, according to the Ramsey County Medical Examiner.
Alexander Westerlund, 29, lived in Vadnais Heights.
He was reported missing just after midnight on March 10, but it wasn’t until April 18 that his body was found.
".
Please please respond if that wasn't you!
It wasn't; I just searched for and found the obituary; it has a photo. The deceased alex has blonde hair, lighter eyes, waaaay different eyubrows, the hairline is significantly different too. Sleep soundly tonight c:
@@Aurelleah Thanks, big relief!
TLDR: Good idea but needs work.
- What is you solution for evaporation induced hyper salinity?
Salty water flowing in, water evaporates off leaving the saline behind. Dead Sea 2.0. Best option would be to generate a proper tidal channel that where sea level and salinity can be passively managed by changes in the tide same as the Med, which despite having major freshwater rivers feeding it (Danube, Nile, Po, Rhone etc) is still 5ppt saltier than the Atlantic and has a constant current where "normal" sea water comes in on the surface and saltier water passes via counter current directly underneath. Pulling saltier water into the depression and making it evaporate is problematic and would need massive deeply pumped outflows to mitigate hyper-salinity.
-Your thermal extraction concept is flawed/incomplete
If the rocks heat up (which they will already be, subterranean environs are not generally cool) then they have to dissipate it somewhere, heat doesn't just cease to exist, it will likely transfer back into the surrounding water. For true cooling you need a way of directionally radiating it into space and there are currently existing technologies that can do this. Additionally the sun will heat the water in the depression anyway, probably more than the ocean because it is shallower. So there will no thermal benefit beyond humidifying the surrounding air.
-Carbon sequestration is a non-sequitur.
-As to the environment, this will not be a boon it will be a cataclysm for the local ecosystem as any species that has adapted to survive a desert will fail in more temperate conditions. The local ecosystem will be replaced with other neighbouring ones that outcompete in humid conditions, there will be no restoration.
Also you keep saying lake, it will not be a lake but an inland sea. Lakes are by definition freshwater bodies.
Otherwise a good presentation of concept with a significant amount of potential but there is a lot more work around feasibility and issue mitigation that would needs to be done.
🔶There was a much larger option that the speaker missed!
Central deserts of Iran. The Iran River project investigates the filling of deserts surrounded by mountains with sea water to create fresh water in the mountains (natural fresh water production) to transform the region.
Would this lower the level of the Mediterranean Sea? The only inlet from the Atlantic is through the Gibraltar strait, and more comes in than goes out due to evaporation
Of course not! The pressure would rise through Gibraltar and water levels would naturally equalise.
I have a few questions
1. Would the local precipitation kick-started by the Qattara Depression be sufficient to maintain the salinity levels.
2. What about the Tunisian Chott something depression, how would the 2 projects combined reduce the sea level?
3. What about other depression, say the Dead Sea, Death Valley, how much is the combined impact of utilising so many depressions to control sea levels?
4. Wouldn't it be cheaper for a canal to go around the plateau to hit the Qattara Depression
Hi Mr Boliao! Let me give you some answers.
1) No. Water in the depression would evaporate and rain elsewhere, meaning the West Sea would slowly increase in salinity over time.
2) The Tunisian Chott is significantly smaller than the Qattara Depression. It would hold 1/10 of the water volume, so it’s effect on sea levels would be tiny. However, I do value the idea of flooding it- some of the same environmental benefits may still arise (cooler local climate) and help Tunisia.
3) The Dead Sea is the BEST second choice to fill. It would hold a high volume of water. However, all the depressions in the world wouldn’t fix sea level rise… other things need to be done too (groundwater restoration, regenerative agriculture, etc).
4) No. Even if the canal was cheaper per mile or per kilometer, going around the plateau would make the route longer and end up as the same price as a direct tunnel.
@@alexwestisbest Hopefully NASA can relocate the tested things they use you mentioned in the vid on the dead sea depression so it can be filled, and the one depression near the Himalayas can be filled eventually down the line, so it slows sea level rise significantly and buy us more time to combat it as a whole.
@@alexwestisbest I would do the Danakil (Ethiopia and Eritrea) before the Dead Sea, but political tensions there might be just as high as Israel vs. its neighbors.
@@NickB1967 yea… both of those areas are currently political hotspots. Alas!
The tunisian Chott is flat and above sea level, no place to really fill it up. BUT, it would be a perfect place to establish a "seawater based agriculture" due to a good potential soil quality. czcams.com/video/PVxDClrBAAA/video.html&ab_channel=HowardWeiss
The impact on sea level is negligible and I think sea water mining could be done on a much larger scale using the tides in certain coastal areas. There is also the problem of how to prevent salination of the aquifers under the depression. It seems to me that rather than using sea water, it would be better to use fresh water from the Nile. Just extend the New Valley Project from the Toshka Lakes so that canals and water filled depressions link oases together and finally reach the Qatarra Depression. While the soil is being desalinated and the depression is filling up with fresh water, build more pumping stations and canals so that the new lake empties into the sea. This artificial western branch of the Nile would create a much longer stretch of arable land in the desert and provide a sustainable solution to the salinity problem. It would require a lot of digging and pumping, but irrigation projects in California and Libya have proven works of that scale to be feasible.
Great idea, but: The evaporation in the quattara sink is at least ~8 liter water per m² and day (2.9 m³/year). By flooding the sink to the max (~ 18.500 sq km) you’re losing an extreme amount of water to the sun. You need an inflow of at least 1700m³/s JUST to equal the evaporation in the sink. Through the Nile Water Agreement, a stable 55.5 billion m³ /year was allocated to Egypt (once, before GERD). That's about 1760m³/ second on average - so there will never be enough water left to fill even a big enough 1000km long canal from the Toshka Lakes to the sink. Prove me wrong.
@@Atanjeo1 I didn’t even think about evaporation. Maybe the solution would be to make a wetland suitable for agriculture instead of just a regular lake. For example they could make an inland version of the existing Nile Delta, or something like the chinampas farms on the remnants of Lake Texcoco in Mexico.
@@Atanjeo1 Most suitable solution would be to create new lake between Rosetta and Abu Quir and then dig Canal to Alexandria and down south to Quattara Depression. But the problem would be pollution of the water from Agriculture and settlements. On the other hand if it would be possible to supply those with desalinated water and treat wastewater, then amount of water and it's quality could be enhanced.
Very convincing presentation and great to have a yound mind daring to think big. I see the nay sayers talking about salinity of ground water, oases lost, etc. but seems to me that the benefits would by far outweigh and replace or compensate for that assuming that salinity effect actually happened. Also, there was no mention about hydro electricity generation in the presentation that together with solar generation would also account for many more accrued benefits.
Hey, I'm Egyptian. We're lowkey doing something like this right now, but the water goes through a filtration process to make the salty water fresh(I'm not an expert). You could check it.
It's called the New Delta project.
Could generate hydro power as well?
Why not build pumped-storage hydro on the top of the plateau?
I worked in Egypt in the late 1970's. I was told that a German engineering firm had done a detailed feasibility study of this for the Egyptian government. That work is probably still sitting in a file cabinet in Cairo.
The heat sequestration capacity seems largely over-estimated... especially if it is just one large tunnel that carries the water, without any structure of small-to-tiny tubes that would enhance heat exchange. Still love the idea, certainly a project that seems worth considering as one of many "last-minute" solutions to help lower the impact of climate change.
What about damming hudson bay and let it fill with river water by dumping saltwater in the ocean then build channels to transport the fresh water to arid areas?
What about the weight of the water, and new seismic events?
He presents really well and argued for his case very well.
Also there are very large underground aquifers in that zone as discovered in Libya which will be recharged and carry away some more of that water for storage and use elsewhere in the zone, possibly.
there is another desert depression in Carthage can we also flood that?
We could, but it’s very small unfortunately. Wouldn’t help very much with sea level rise 👍🏻
The Hudson Bay is the best long term option for this problem because 3mm is only a small percentage of the fast moving target
What about the Qara oasis? This is kinda a trolly problem but the conductor has the same lifestyle as the 5 and is very very different from the 1 he would have to run over to save the 5
My only question is since the lake will have no outlet what is going to keep the lake from being super salinated over time like the Dead Sea?
That’s a good question, Octoberfurst. The lake will reach the same salinity the Dead Sea has historically averaged in about 200 years.
simple: 2 tunnels and water level at sea level without energy production
Sweet water would be awesome, but saltwater lake itself would give so much evaporation it would add that moisture in Nile Delta as more rainfalls. That would probably make the gap between lake and Nile Delta much more green
2 tunnels in and out, assisted by tidal force and/or wind turbines to push salty water out to the Med
Really cool explanation, Thank you
My obvious question is whether or not we can desalinate the water as it's flowing in to the quattara depression. If you can find a way to do it with just the energy of gravity then Egypt will have a giant new source of fresh water to use for agriculture in the desert.
One way direction of sea water flow makes this a dead sea in no time. whats the benefit of having such sea inlands??
All that kinetic energy can be put to use generating electricity. Also I believe California also has a large section beneath sea level where the Salton sea is
With continuous evaporation the salinity levels will climb unless you have some type of circulation with the Mediterranean Sea. Not sure how useful that would be. Pity there isn't a good source of fresh water that could be used instead.
Wouldn't it make more sense to use Nile water, with increasing rainfall as a side effect ?
The Nile is:
1. Farther away, and therefore more expensive
2. Already under EXTREME political tension with massive fears of running dry.
You also forget the hydropower potential from that. You could generate insane amounts of electrical power.
one issue : the mediteranian sea is an inland sea , all your precious elements , you are going to filter out , are there only in a slight amount. the concentrations are much higher in the oceans. don't forget , the mediteranias sea is mostly filled by the rivers and not by the oceans.
The difference in elevation would allow these tunnels to be used for hydroelectric power if engineered correctly. Three problems: one that freshwater aquifers will be flooded with salt water, two that ecosystems using these oases are out of luck, and three evaporating water will gradually increase the salinity of this lake causing future problems.
This is a fascinating idea. Have you considered if it could be practical to divide the sea into 2 or more basins? This would provide more control and redundancy and even allow for hydroelectric generation as the water levels change from evaporation. Similar to 2 basin tidal power.
I've put a lot of thought into it. Hydropower is a function of volume and HEIGHT... and the Endor Depression is relatively shallow. Initial calculations suggest the hydropower potential of this place is about equal to that of the Aswan High Dam, which I've had some friends visit (it's EPIC), but the cost of adding a basin dam to this project is BILLIONS more -- the electricity generated from this would cost 20x more than normal. Hydroelectric just doesn't shine with big wide dams, it shines with tall narrow ones (like in mountains or canyons).
@@alexwestisbest Could a narrow, more horizontal pipe, support a hydroelectric plant?
@@hobartspitz1029 hey Hobart! Unfortunately, no. The cost of tunneling is a fixed, high cost. This *could* be a pretty large-sized hydro plant (top 20 in the world, I think?), BUT the construction cost would just be too high to be remotely worth the investment. You could build any other power plant (wind, solar, solar thermal, etc) and get 10x more affordable power for the same construction cost.
True, and one part of the Quattara could be a salt sump, the other a sea with about the same saltiness as the ocean.
@@NickB1967 minerals are extracted from the sump (edited)?
Alex,
Excellent work.
Some extra info:
With a drop of a few meters in water level it's possible to also generate electricity for the new lake region.
With the heat of the Mediterranean Sea water mixed with desert heat it is possible to turn steam turbines for electricity.
Salt can also be extracted from the water for export and partly desalinated water can then be exported for agriculture. (Agriculture doesn't need 100% pure water)
The lake doesn't have to be pure water, it can be slightly salty allowing for a broad spectrum of aqua and even rice, prawns etc to be farmed.
Near the lakeside towns proper desalination plants can be built for drinking water and other agriculture.
Aquaculture can be introduced for fresh water fish, oysters, crayfish etc.
Tree-planting organisations and climate activists can plant millions of fruit trees, shrubs, grasses around the coastline areas producing tons of food and savannah to tropical areas.
In your next presentation you could also comment on how many kilometres of new land for sale in the region and profits if they only sell land at eg $1 per square meter etc.
New cities with different climates, targeting different markets and uses of wind and solar for export.
Also agriculture can draw water from the lake by several billions of litres per year meaning that the seawater mining can continue everyday, also meaning that the sea-level is continually being dropped.
All the best
Regards
John
The lake water will be saltier than the Med, because as the lake water evaporates, the salt remains. Think Dead Sea.
No practical turbine can extract useful energy when operating at temperature difference as small as between sea water and desert heat.
Best comment to this chain of hot air bubbles 😂
Super interesting. Also: what about the electricity generated by the downhill flow of water from the Mediterranean Sea to the potential Qattara Sea? Egypt already has the Aswan Dam, and a similar concept could be applied here, generating more electricity.
Issues:
With evaporation, the potential Qattarra Sea could be very salty, almost like the Dead Sea. How to make sure it isn’t too salty, and besides building massive desalination plants, how to protect the nearby oases like Siwa Oasis?
I have a question. I'm Egyptian and I've known about the Qattara Depression and it's potential for a while. The idea itself dates back a long time. So why, all these years later, is the project still in the conception phase? Why hasn't progress been made?
Honestly, politics. This is just an ambitious project that needs a lot of political will behind it to happen. They didn’t have enough momentum back then to make it happen.
@@alexwestisbest Thanks for answering. One final question if you don't mind. Upon trying to conduct my own research on this matter, I've stumbled on the following criticism: "If using water from the Mediterranean, you will have a hypersalinated lake that will destroy the Siwa Oasis, Farafra Oasis, and any ground water within 100 miles of the Qattara Salty Lake. Additionally, because of its enormous size, it will have geological effects that might increase the magnitude of earthquakes in a region that is relatively safe from them." What are your thoughts on this?
@@HT-on5sk The earthquake worry is minor- that claim is purely speculation. There may be a few quakes of small size (not enough to damage things) as the ground settles, but even that is speculation.
The hyper saline lake will form, yes, but the water tables in the area are separate. The salt won’t contaminate the nearby oases, because they are fueled by a different groundwater source. Actually, the lake will increase flow at the oases, because it will push the ground down near the lake, which will squeeze the oasis water upwards!
@@alexwestisbest How long would it take to become as saline as Great Salt Lake?
@@tbitm after some googling, it looks like the Great Salt Lake varies a lot in salinity year to year. I’ll take a rough average of that data and say about 100 years to reach the Great Salt Lake salinity, and another 100 years to reach the Dead Sea salinity.