Ep 268 | Mosiah 11-17, Come Follow Me 2024 (May 13-19)
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- ➡ Detailed Show Notes: www.ldsscriptureteachings.org...
➡ Timestamps:
(00:00) An overview of these chapters.
(07:55) How to take “Noah blinders” off.
(10:18) Abinadi teaches how Jesus is both the Father and the Son.
(16:59) Like Jesus, Alma yields to the will of the Father.
(22:32) The priests of Noah try to discredit the prophet Abinadi.
(28:20) Abinadi challenges Noah’s right to rule.
(36:21) Getting the law written in our hearts instead of just going through the motions.
(40:06) More insight into Abinadi’s interpretation of Isaiah 52.
(50:22) Alma saw both Noah and Abiniadi for who they really were.
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#comefollowme #bookofmormon #newtestament #oldtestament #hebrewbible #bible #Christian #jesuschrist #lds #churchofjesuschristoflatterdaysaints #temple #temples
Elder Bruce R McConkies’ talk about the Devine investiture of authority adds significant insights into the verses in Mosiah 15. We shouldn’t lose sight of the fact that Jesus submitted his will to the Father (Elohim) which allows him to speak and act on his behalf as if he were The Father. That’s another way they are One God.
Thank you brothers for enlightening my understanding of this part of the Book of Mormon. You are a true inspiration!
Thank you for treating us to a very meaty discussion.
Mike, this was great! I understood what you said! Thanks to you both for teaching us and testifying of truth.
Glad you enjoyed it! Thanks for listening!
Minute 14. Oh, thank you. that makes much more sense
This discussion really opened up my understanding in so many ways. Especially as Mike read ch15 vs 1-8. Thank you for the clarity. There was so much in that section that adds a depth of complexity of the duality that Christ was faced with.
Very good!
Thanks!
Isaiah 52 temple text!!! So cool!
It’s so good!
Awesome!! I always "thought" Modish 15:1-8 referred to the godhead. Your explanation it was about Jesus was eye opening!! Thank you!!!❤😮
@Mike, Appreciated your take on Isaiah 52 and wanted to share mine, which is fully documented below. As you alluded to, Christ brings up these same verses in 3 Nephi in Chapter 16 and continues regarding them in Chapter 20 of 3 Nephi.
@Mike & @ALL, As to the above verses in the context of the covenants the Father made with the House of Israel...in 3 Nephi 20:15-20, he gets to the point of it all (the verses which started with the question about prophets publishing peace). In these verses he states that if the Gentiles don’t repent in the Latter-Days that a Remnant of Jacob, note that these are the Lost 10 Tribes of Israel, will act as the instruments of judgment in the Savior’s hands in destroying the wicked Gentiles. And that THIS is unto the fulfilling of the covenant made by the Father with the House of Israel. The supernal fulfillment of these verses and hence the verses mentioned in Mosiah 12 by the wicked priest of Noah is Latter-Day. This Remnant of Jacob is NOT on the earth. In 3 Nephi 15 the Savior speaks of “the other tribes” of Israel. These are obviously not of Judah in the Holy Lands or Joseph in America. These are the tribes that the father led away during the Assyrian captivity. THEY ARE NOT ON EARTH. If they were, there is no way we wouldn’t know of them. See Nehemiah 1:9 and Deuteronomy 30:4 and Isaiah 13:5 for where the lost 10 tribes are. In AoF 10 it speaks of the “Restoration of the Lost 10 Tribes”. Restoration of a people is the Lord’s work. Gathering people is our assignment. In DC 133:26-35 it ties a bow on all of this. These tribes will come from the midst of heaven (be 'restored') as the veritable “hosts of heaven” and will rescue the righteous in America in the last days. They will root out our oppressors (see Revelation 13:13-17). They will establish Zion and make it terrible (See DC 45:70) and they will, under the direction of John the Revelator (Connect DC 77 verses 14 and 9), bring the lost 10 tribes to their promised home in Zion here in America, ALL OF THIS IS IN FULFILLMENT OF THE FATHER’S COVENANT TO THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL. When these covenants are fulfilled, then the prophets of the lost 10 tribes and Watchmen of Ephraim (our prophets/seers/revelators) WILL see eye to eye because we have passed through hardships similar to these and have kept the faith. ALL of these verses are about covenants, a topic which President Nelson told us to study during his landmark talk, “Let God Prevail” in October 2020. THESE are among the PROMISES he wanted us to understand. Why? Because in the last days when we as saints have our backs up against the wall and are forced to choose between Christ and the adversary (see DC 101:35 where it describes the suffering of the faithful in the last days), this knowledge will, in part, be the marrow in our spine that help us to choose Christ and remain valiant in the testimony of Him.
Head Cannon: Abinadi was the brother of Amaleki who returned with Zeniff to the Land of Nephi (Omni 1:30). This would make him the other son of Abinadom, and thus of the lineage of the prophet Jacob.
You talk so much about the first temple period. Where can we study more of the ordinances of the first temple and things like kingship?
You will want to purchase Dave Butler’s book “In the Language of Adam.” I talk with Dave and the fellas on the CZcams channel “The Stick of Joseph” about this and Dave’s book just came out- you will probably want to start there.
See also: czcams.com/video/xmqWVtY0czk/video.htmlsi=-Y3ppGRBs7l3M96m
See also: www.ldsscriptureteachings.org/2020/01/overview-of-the-first-israelite-temple-drama/
See also: www.ldsscriptureteachings.org/2020/05/beautiful-feet-in-abinadis-address-an-analysis-of-isaiah-52-and-mosiah-12-17/
See also: Aubrey, Johnson, Sacral Kingship in Ancient Israel.
See also: John Eaton, The Festal Drama in Deutero-Isaiah.
There’s lots more, but this is a great start. You may also want to listen to the podcast “The Ancient Tradition.” It collects the sources and triangulates the stories in Nibley-esque fashion that you may enjoy.
Cheers
Is it possible that the fullness of the temple is correlated with the functioning of all the tribes of Israel? Could that explain why the temple was never fully restored after their return from exile and perhaps why we haven’t received the full restoration as a church today? Maybe that’s why the Lord makes such a big deal about the restoration of the 12 tribes in the last days. A fullness of temple blessings perhaps?
I think there is evidence that Zeniff and his people saw themselves as being divinely led, guided, helped (or at least approved) by God to return and reclaim the land of Nephi. I say this because why else would King Noah's Priests later question Abinadi in Mosiah 12:21 reciting Isaiah 52? One interpretation of chapter 52 is that Isaiah was prophesying about God's messenger declaring glad tidings and good news after the Jews are displaced and then again restored to Jerusalem.
It makes sense that Zeniff's people and their descendants see themselves also fulfilling this prophecy. The people of Nephi established the land of Lehi-Nephi and then Mosiah 1 was commanded by God to leave. Zeniff led his people back to the land to reclaim it. They retake the land of their inheritance of Lehi-Nephi and of Shilom.
So the wicked priests try to trap Abinadi basically asking him why he isn't declaring "good tidings" if he truly is a messenger of God. Making the assumption he must be a false prophet because a "real prophet" would be declaring good news about how their people were restored to the land of their inheritance and the Lord "hath redeemed Jerusalem."
In addition, it's interesting to note that the neighboring city to Lehi-Nephi and Shilom was named Jerusalem (check out Bro Griffin's internal BoM map). So quite literally they may have seen themselves "redeem[ing] Jerusalem."
I like the idea of the Zeniffites viewing themselves as fulfilling Isaiah 52. We read that Noah built a watchtower (for watchmen) and gave wine to his people, and so perhaps the priests were quoting this passage as a way of justifying King Noah's actions.
I think that Jerusalem isn't founded until later by the priests of Noah after King Noah is ceremonially burned (Mosiah 19:24). But their choice of name may lend credence to the idea that they felt they were fulfilling a return from a diaspora.
Another interesting name that may have temple significance is the land of Shilom (ŠLM). In the days before the Temple of Solomon, the ark was kept in Shiloh, and although the KJV renders the name of people like Ahijah as Shilonites, I wonder if those people with the ark could be thought of as ŠLM-ites. Thus, when Mosiah I was forced to leave the temple, their next place of refuge became the hill North of ŠLM - a return to the traveling Tabernacle like when Lehi left Jerusalem. This would also make it interesting that when Zeniff returns, they wander for 40 days, then once again pitch their "tents" at the hill of ŠLM.
@@BrotherOfAmaleki Wow! I am so happy you commented! Your insights are incredible! It seems that not only did these Zeniffites see themselves fulfilling Isaiah’s prophesy but they may have actively worked to fulfill it.
Great catch on the origin of the Nephite Jerusalem. Perhaps they did name it as fulfillment of the prophecy. Also Mosiah 11, “12 And it came to pass that he built a tower near the temple; yea, a very high tower, even so high that he could stand upon the top thereof and overlook the land of Shilom, and also the land of Shemlon, which was possessed by the Lamanites; and he could even look over all the land round about.” King Noah was the one that had that watchtower built. Could this be more evidence of them working to fulfill Isaiah 52?
I wonder if this is why Zeniff describes himself as overzealous? I can imagine his excitement to fulfill scripture. Perhaps he taught his people they were on the Lord’s errand to return to the land of their inheritance. Later he realized he was over-zealously doing his own will. The most recent know-why article on scripture central makes a similar argument.
Also your insight into the etymology of Shilom and the connections to Israel and the tabernacle are mind-blowingly cool! I’m going to study this more in-depth to find these connections.
Isaiah 52 I read some articles about this. I think the priests saw themselves like the Jews being restored to the land of their inheritance. They saw themselves being brought back by God restored to the promise land and messengers of God should be declaring good news about that. Mosiah 1 left the land of Nephi-Lehi and they finally returned and inherited that land again. In addition Isaiah 52 is about being restored to Jerusalem. They were in the land of Nephi-Lehi and Shilom which was neighboring the city Jerusalem (check out Bro Tyler Griffins internal BoM map).
Bryce, what do you mean by Jesus yielded to Jehovah? I thought he yielded to Ellohim?
The mortal inside Him which I called Jesus yielded to the divine inside Him, which I called Jehovah. It’s like me yielding my natural man to my spirit. It’s a symbol of all of us -including Him - yielding to the Father.
I have a question, when it says Jesus had to pay the price that justice demanded for our sins. WHO set the demands? Everything Jesus had to endure.. who said so?
Eternal law. Our Heavenly Father obeys eternal law, which has a punishment affixed. 2 Ne. 2
The universe is full of laws, science call them the law of physics, just because scientists haven't discovered ALL the universal laws doesn't mean they don't exist. The laws in the universe creat harmony and balance, there are physical, energetic and spiritual laws. The only reason a supreme intelligence even gave us "commandments" was to maintain universal harmony and balance. They aren't arbitrary demands rather loving counsel. Same with having a "rescuer" it's about harmony and balance, about justice and mercy. Nassiem Harriman (probably got the name wrong) explains the laws of physical physics in such a way it makes sense of the need for balance.
ALMA 11
38 Now Zeezrom saith again unto him: IS THE SON OF GOD THE VERY ETERNAL FATHER?
39 And Amulek said unto him: Yea, HE IS THE VERY ETERNAL FATHER OF HEAVEN and of earth, and all things which in them are; he is the beginning and the end, the first and the last;
MOSIAH 16
15 TEACH THEM THAT redemption cometh through CHRIST the Lord, who IS THE VERY ETERNAL FATHER. Amen.
According to Merriam Dictionary, the text “VERY” MEANS TRUE OR REAL.
ETHER 3
12 And he answered: Yea, Lord, I know that thou speakest the truth, for thou art a God of truth, and canst not lie.
14 …Behold, I AM JESUS CHRIST. I AM THE FATHER AND THE SON…
3 NEPHI 1
14 Behold, I come unto my own, to fulfil all things which I have made known unto the children of men from the foundation of the world, and to do the will, both of the Father and of the Son-of THE FATHER BECAUSE OF ME, and of THE SON BECAUSE OF MY FLESH…
3 NEPHI 11
36 And thus will the Father bear record of me, and the Holy Ghost will bear record unto him of the Father and me; for THE FATHER, AND I, AND THE HOLY GHOST ARE ONE.
ALMA 11
44 …the bar of CHRIST THE SON, AND GOD THE FATHER, AND THE HOLY SPIRIT, WHICH IS ONE ETERNAL GOD…
2 NEPHI 26
12 …Jesus is the very Christ, it must needs be that the Gentiles be CONVINCED ALSO THAT JESUS IS THE CHRIST, THE ETERNAL GOD;
13 And that he manifesteth himself unto all those who believe in him, by the power of the Holy Ghost..
ALMA 11
26 And Zeezrom said unto him: Thou sayest THERE IS A TRUE AND LIVING GOD?
27 And Amulek said: Yea, there is a true and living God.
28 Now Zeezrom said: IS THERE MORE THAN ONE GOD?
29 And he answered, NO.
2 NEPHI 15
7 For IF THERE BE NO CHRIST THERE BE NO GOD; and if there be no God we are not, for there could have been no creation. But THERE IS A GOD, AND HE IS CHRIST, and HE COME…
MOSIAH 15
1 …I would that YE SHOULD UNDERSTAND that GOD HIMSELF SHALL COME…
2 …BEING THE FATHER AND THE SON-
3 …BECOMING THE FATHER AND SON-
4 And they are ONE GOD, YEA, THE VERY ETERNAL FATHER of heaven and of earth.
5 And thus the FLESH becoming subject TO THE SPIRIT, or the SON TO THE FATHER, BEING ONE GOD…
TITLE PAGE OF THE BOOK OF MORMON
…Written to the Lamanites, who are a remnant of the house of Israel; and also to Jew and Gentile- … to the convincing of the Jew and Gentile that JESUS IS THE CHRIST, THE ETERNAL GOD…
It's not up to us to judge wheat or tares. Use spiritual discernment
That’s the same thing. If by judgement you mean condemnation, you are correct. But we MUST judge between the wheat and the tares. If not, you will let in a tare that will burn you. Can you imagine choosing a spouse without judgment? You would just take the first person who came along. That would be foolish. If you own a business, and you didn’t judge when you hired, and just took whoever applied, that would also be foolish. We have to judge. We just need to learn to judge righteously. (JST Matthew 7:1)