I feel an important difference is that mangonels have friendly fire, scorpions don't. That's why you can have scorpions on auto-pilot, but shouldn't do that for mangonels.
two thing that went a bit under: - Mangonels do friendly fire which why you dont really wanna surround with (usually) knights and fire into the pack with a Mango. Scorps are better in Infantry fiestas for the same reason. - Mangonel answer Scorprions bc they kill Scrops and Mangos in 1 hit. so if your opponent has a Workshop as well its really hard going for scorpions. bc the answer to both is the Mangonel anyway.
I wish Hera and AoE2 devs could work out a way to literally include this video into the tutorial. I think this would be so helpful for people who are totally new to siege
I think you got your numbers mixed: Should be a "A 30 kg prejectile over a distance of 300 meter." Are you thinking of fantasy trebuchets like in LotR Minas Tirith?
@@nostalji75 You could go for much more than 30kg. At least 100kg as the "Warwolf" was reported to be able to hurl rocks weighing up to 135kg. The range varies hugely and 300 meters seems to be pushing it a little bit, especially when talking about accurate range.
@@vekeuimonen11 You could go for heavier projectile than 30 kg, but 300 kg is to much. It is simply not practical. Afaik projectiles between 10 - 150 kg were used. Sure does the maximum range vary, but 300 m has been confirmed by several sources. You don't want to build your treb 90 m from the enemey away. Always protect your trebs!!
There's a tangent subject regarding to scorpions specifically: Role in certain civ army composition. A Scorpion can be a vital half of your army, or be the 'middle man' of your army comp. I play a lot of Celts and halbs with siege onagers is pretty much a staple strategy, SOs flatten archers and halbs poke down cavalry, but if the game allows you can also throw a few heavy scorpions as some sort of 'contingency' plan. Imagine all your SOs die and your halbs are facing massed arbalests, while not as good as SOs, heavy scorps can still keep archers in check, whereas you'd forced to retreat without your back up plan unit and without SO's. Now imagine all your halbs died and you're facing a group of hussars charging your SO's, while not as good as pointy bois, heavy scorps can actually kill hussars and actually be able to defend themselves and your SO's, whereas without scorps it would have been a wipe. A middle man scorpion makes your army much harder to kill. And the other role is simple, being one half your army, the most notorious example of this is Khmer using Heavy Scorpions and Battle elephants to complement eachother. Funny enough in that army comp, Ballista Elephants would be the 'middle man'.
Nice video hera! But there is one thing that i was expecting you to mention lets say we are in a situation that we have to defend in most cases opponent will push with mangonels but can scorpion match against mangonels on defence if we apply the general rule ''use scorpions for defence'' ? its really hard to dodge mangonel attack with scorpion and they get destroyed by 1 shot while mangonels can be repaired by a villager. Please correct me if i am mistaken. Thanks for useful videos
i first saw ur channel as uploading memes, meme play, meme commentary lol very helpful! u convey ur thoughts in a way in a very digestible and engaging way. gj!
Top rate content, great stuff. How about another macro tip guide just for the hell of it? I know you've already done like 5 of them but its the easiest and biggest thing to improve.
Amazing insight. I would have added at the conclusion something that you mentioned during the scorpions cons and is that if you're defending agains a group of mixed xbows and skirms is better to go mangonel because its melee damage will do more against a mixed composition, while if there are only xbows the pierce damage from the scorpion doesn't become a weakness.
Something I do like about mangos and I didn't saw it mentioned befores is that yes your oponent might avoid the fight, and that can be priceless to get a better defense eco sometimes. Thanks for the video. :)
Love the mixing them strat, it usually works for me. My experience being a Britons + Black Forest player. I started using Mango + Scorpions to shred skirms and rams at my walls (Castle Age), leaving the way clear for my big blob of xbows to clear anything else. Defensive games can turn offensive easily.
I also factor in my APM when deciding between the two. If i go mangonel i know I won't be able to micro my eco or other units as effectively. Sometimes i just add in one or 2 mangonels to a composition. even if i have them on no attack stance it will force my opponent to be much more wary of large engagements.
This is a great vid. Have had several players come with scoprions in mid castle to attack me and I struggle against those. Will start adding these in my game play. gl hf!
I have seen scorpions being used when knights get in a line to fight other pack of knights. It may be a very niche situation but it balances out any disadvantages if the scorpion is ignored by the opponent.
I really enjoyed the video, But I think you were missing the fact, that mangonels Are good vs scorpions, so if the enemy is going for siege as well, you are forced into your own mangonels in most cases and you actually Dont really have a choice. I Love your new chnnel content and always wanted videos like that in the AOE2 scene.
I find that knights with scorpions is great because each compliments each other’s weakness. The knights can fight against mangonels and enemy cavalry whereas the scorpions can fight against poles with ease. Plus they can help with xbows that a picking off your knights.
It should be added that scorpions are micro unintensive meanwhile mangonels are micro intensive. Mangonels are also the only anti siege siege unit. Only a mangonel can safe you if your enemys rams are knocking on your gate.
This is so useful thanks!! When going archers and being chased by knights mangos, should we hit and run the knights or try hit and running the mangos? Does the answer change if going britons with their +1 range only (no unique tech)
If you're being chased by knights and mangos, you should retreat as fast as you can and try to focus fire on the knights whenever possible. Archers should be way faster than mangos, so you shouldn't try to engage them. If they're at your base, then honestly, retreat and defend your TC, try to pick off units if you can, and hold out until you can build better defensive options, or try to see if you can attack their base. You might die anyway; there's a whole list of pros who've died to the Hoang rush. But if they're able to afford knights and mangos, that's incredibly expensive on every resource. Either they're so far ahead economically that you're screwed no matter what, or they've idled their TC and have terrible eco back home. Just try to see if you can hold out for a bit. If you have a Crossbow-based composition, your eco should be pretty strong back home since those are much cheaper than Knights + Mangonels.
I often use scorpions to defend my knights from pikes because they don't do friendly fire. It is very unrealistic seeing a battle between knights and pikes decided by incoming projectiles that hurt multiple pikes but fly through horses without touching them but I use it to my advantage.
it takes one misstep for the entire stack of scorpions to just collapse under the sheer unrelenting force of the tyranical onager and my heart can take not one more of such loss
Hmmm can't believe you didn't mention that mangonels damage friendly units and Scorpions dont. That to me really changes their application. You can have a backline of scorptions providing fire support while you go in with melee units and not worry about losing your own units. But if you do that with the Mangonel you're just as likely to kill all your own units.
Hera, how do you counter someone that spams scorpions, halberdiers & trebs? I was playing as Lithuanians vs celts and couldnt find a counter to this. Please help!!!
Not sure why you didn't mention that mangonels beat scorpions which is really important when fighting with offensive siege vs defensive siege and vice versa
You say a good composition is knight + mangonel. Which civilisation would you recommend to me for this combination ? I know no civ who has bonus at both
It makes no sense that the scorpion does pierce damage. Doesnt matter how much armor youi have on if a massive bolt with high speed goes through you, you gona die. It makes sense that it should do less damage against buildings, but not against skirmishers. That is just dumb.
Also, Scorps deal significant damage to the Skirms, even if the Skirms have 4+2 pierce armor. Since Skirms have low HP, and Scorps deal quite a lot of damage (the same damage as a Knight with Iron Casting), the Skirms can only withstand 6 scorp shots before going down, and this number decreases with each collateral hit. I'd say that Scorps counter skirms.
lol, you are talking bs dude. you say best is mixing the two... yet ive never seen you use both, usually you go for manganels. and you also say scorpions are better on defense... no. manganels get beaten by manganels way better, so usually when someone is pushing in with a manganel and army, the defending pro also makes a manganel to kill it. not to mention rams. you cant really kill rams with scorpions. you can however kill them with a manganel
I feel an important difference is that mangonels have friendly fire, scorpions don't. That's why you can have scorpions on auto-pilot, but shouldn't do that for mangonels.
I came to the comments to say this
I love Hera of the Law!
Hera of the law official
two thing that went a bit under:
- Mangonels do friendly fire which why you dont really wanna surround with (usually) knights and fire into the pack with a Mango. Scorps are better in Infantry fiestas for the same reason.
- Mangonel answer Scorprions bc they kill Scrops and Mangos in 1 hit. so if your opponent has a Workshop as well its really hard going for scorpions. bc the answer to both is the Mangonel anyway.
I think “friendly fire” is an important concept, it should be added to video as a negative point to mangonel and as a positive point to scorpion
I wish Hera and AoE2 devs could work out a way to literally include this video into the tutorial. I think this would be so helpful for people who are totally new to siege
You forgot to mention a con of the mangonel : bad players can easily damage their own units
But can a mangonel or either a scorpion launch a 300kg projectile over a distance of 90m? I don't think so.
treb gang
treb gang
11
I think you got your numbers mixed: Should be a "A 30 kg prejectile over a distance of 300 meter." Are you thinking of fantasy trebuchets like in LotR Minas Tirith?
@@nostalji75 You could go for much more than 30kg. At least 100kg as the "Warwolf" was reported to be able to hurl rocks weighing up to 135kg. The range varies hugely and 300 meters seems to be pushing it a little bit, especially when talking about accurate range.
@@vekeuimonen11 You could go for heavier projectile than 30 kg, but 300 kg is to much. It is simply not practical. Afaik projectiles between 10 - 150 kg were used. Sure does the maximum range vary, but 300 m has been confirmed by several sources.
You don't want to build your treb 90 m from the enemey away. Always protect your trebs!!
There's a tangent subject regarding to scorpions specifically: Role in certain civ army composition.
A Scorpion can be a vital half of your army, or be the 'middle man' of your army comp.
I play a lot of Celts and halbs with siege onagers is pretty much a staple strategy, SOs flatten archers and halbs poke down cavalry, but if the game allows you can also throw a few heavy scorpions as some sort of 'contingency' plan.
Imagine all your SOs die and your halbs are facing massed arbalests, while not as good as SOs, heavy scorps can still keep archers in check, whereas you'd forced to retreat without your back up plan unit and without SO's.
Now imagine all your halbs died and you're facing a group of hussars charging your SO's, while not as good as pointy bois, heavy scorps can actually kill hussars and actually be able to defend themselves and your SO's, whereas without scorps it would have been a wipe.
A middle man scorpion makes your army much harder to kill.
And the other role is simple, being one half your army, the most notorious example of this is Khmer using Heavy Scorpions and Battle elephants to complement eachother.
Funny enough in that army comp, Ballista Elephants would be the 'middle man'.
There is one important scenario where using mangonels defensively is well worth its value - which is to counter enemy mangonels.
Mix both of them so your mangonel kills your scorpions.
Nice video hera! But there is one thing that i was expecting you to mention lets say we are in a situation that we have to defend in most cases opponent will push with mangonels but can scorpion match against mangonels on defence if we apply the general rule ''use scorpions for defence'' ? its really hard to dodge mangonel attack with scorpion and they get destroyed by 1 shot while mangonels can be repaired by a villager. Please correct me if i am mistaken. Thanks for useful videos
Yeah scorps die hard to mangonels, shoulda mentioned that as a pro to mango
i first saw ur channel as uploading memes, meme play, meme commentary lol
very helpful! u convey ur thoughts in a way in a very digestible and engaging way. gj!
Knights and scorpions are a really good pairing. Then add a mangonel to attack buildings once you have 2-4 scorpions.
No, in that scenario rather just add Rams!
Top rate content, great stuff.
How about another macro tip guide just for the hell of it? I know you've already done like 5 of them but its the easiest and biggest thing to improve.
Amazing insight. I would have added at the conclusion something that you mentioned during the scorpions cons and is that if you're defending agains a group of mixed xbows and skirms is better to go mangonel because its melee damage will do more against a mixed composition, while if there are only xbows the pierce damage from the scorpion doesn't become a weakness.
Something I do like about mangos and I didn't saw it mentioned befores is that yes your oponent might avoid the fight, and that can be priceless to get a better defense eco sometimes.
Thanks for the video. :)
Love the mixing them strat, it usually works for me. My experience being a Britons + Black Forest player. I started using Mango + Scorpions to shred skirms and rams at my walls (Castle Age), leaving the way clear for my big blob of xbows to clear anything else. Defensive games can turn offensive easily.
I also factor in my APM when deciding between the two. If i go mangonel i know I won't be able to micro my eco or other units as effectively. Sometimes i just add in one or 2 mangonels to a composition. even if i have them on no attack stance it will force my opponent to be much more wary of large engagements.
This is a great vid. Have had several players come with scoprions in mid castle to attack me and I struggle against those. Will start adding these in my game play. gl hf!
Nice one thanks Hera.
Np bro
@9:18 - photobombing horse
I have seen scorpions being used when knights get in a line to fight other pack of knights. It may be a very niche situation but it balances out any disadvantages if the scorpion is ignored by the opponent.
Mangonel does melee damage?? That one I didn't know
Great video!
Buff Burmese!
Also against battering ram always use mangonel, since scorpion is only causing pierce damage.
Thanks Hera! Learned a few things from this.
I really enjoyed the video, But I think you were missing the fact, that mangonels Are good vs scorpions, so if the enemy is going for siege as well, you are forced into your own mangonels in most cases and you actually Dont really have a choice.
I Love your new chnnel content and always wanted videos like that in the AOE2 scene.
You forgot to mention that scorpion shots don't damage your own units but mangonels do. Really enjoying your videos hera :-)
Mangonel needs good micro, scorp needs less micro. Therefore I always go scorpion :(
“Who tf is attacking me?” My own Mangonel smh
Awsome video! I’ll def try combining both!!!
I find that knights with scorpions is great because each compliments each other’s weakness. The knights can fight against mangonels and enemy cavalry whereas the scorpions can fight against poles with ease. Plus they can help with xbows that a picking off your knights.
I would have added something about how mangonels are better against other siege units due to their melee damage.
Thx for the advice 🙏
Thanks hervivalist!
Hera, I just thought of something revolutionary! You could use pikes to defend your siege from cavalry!
These type of videos are great!!
It should be added that scorpions are micro unintensive meanwhile mangonels are micro intensive.
Mangonels are also the only anti siege siege unit.
Only a mangonel can safe you if your enemys rams are knocking on your gate.
Great video!
This is so useful thanks!!
When going archers and being chased by knights mangos, should we hit and run the knights or try hit and running the mangos? Does the answer change if going britons with their +1 range only (no unique tech)
If you're being chased by knights and mangos, you should retreat as fast as you can and try to focus fire on the knights whenever possible. Archers should be way faster than mangos, so you shouldn't try to engage them. If they're at your base, then honestly, retreat and defend your TC, try to pick off units if you can, and hold out until you can build better defensive options, or try to see if you can attack their base. You might die anyway; there's a whole list of pros who've died to the Hoang rush. But if they're able to afford knights and mangos, that's incredibly expensive on every resource. Either they're so far ahead economically that you're screwed no matter what, or they've idled their TC and have terrible eco back home. Just try to see if you can hold out for a bit. If you have a Crossbow-based composition, your eco should be pretty strong back home since those are much cheaper than Knights + Mangonels.
You forgot to mention about "friendly fire" problem of mangonels
I often use scorpions to defend my knights from pikes because they don't do friendly fire. It is very unrealistic seeing a battle between knights and pikes decided by incoming projectiles that hurt multiple pikes but fly through horses without touching them but I use it to my advantage.
And when should we make a Ram Hera..? That's what the public wants to know :P
Hera_Ram 111
Ok, but what about the 800lb Hera ram in the room?
Rams are best on defence. Simple.
You forgot to mention that the ram is always the correct choice.
it takes one misstep for the entire stack of scorpions to just collapse under the sheer unrelenting force of the tyranical onager and my heart can take not one more of such loss
i think its also important that a mangonel on its own can do pretty big damage, but a single scorpion probably not.
Scorpions need a buff, don't they?
Yep, they were recently nerfed by removing the mango-delete trick!
Imo no but alot of people think yes
No they are a good unit, if used correctly
Hmmm can't believe you didn't mention that mangonels damage friendly units and Scorpions dont. That to me really changes their application. You can have a backline of scorptions providing fire support while you go in with melee units and not worry about losing your own units. But if you do that with the Mangonel you're just as likely to kill all your own units.
Why not both.. that made alot of sense at the end. I think I'll give the 1 to 2 ratio a go.
If they add the knockback ability to the Scorpion, I think they will be used more often.
Now I just need to stop slaughtering my own units with my mangonels
Hera, how do you counter someone that spams scorpions, halberdiers & trebs? I was playing as Lithuanians vs celts and couldnt find a counter to this. Please help!!!
Hera really just went "Why not both?"
Is it worth making scorpions for offense as Khmer? Or is mixing the two still the best option?
If you opponent spreads out with their archers while you attack with scorpions shouldn't the side be vulnerable then?
Not sure why you didn't mention that mangonels beat scorpions which is really important when fighting with offensive siege vs defensive siege and vice versa
I have an issue knowing when to upgrade them. Any thoughts?
I always just flatten my own army when i try to micro mangonels
You say a good composition is knight + mangonel. Which civilisation would you recommend to me for this combination ? I know no civ who has bonus at both
Slavs. Better farmers help in knight production, and they get cheaper siege.
Slavs, Khmer, etc. should do fine. Portuguese has a bonus for both.
a mangonnel
you're welcome
It makes no sense that the scorpion does pierce damage. Doesnt matter how much armor youi have on if a massive bolt with high speed goes through you, you gona die. It makes sense that it should do less damage against buildings, but not against skirmishers. That is just dumb.
Which one is better against Cavalry archer ? Scorpion or skirmisher ?
Skirmisher.
If you struggle with food (early castle) Scorpion. Once you have food eco it's always better to preserve gold
For some reason I always lose the mangonel battle... For that reason I just don't make them lol...
Por que no los dos?
Why are scorpions good if you have archers vs archers skrims in defense? Aren't they bad against skirms?
Also, Scorps deal significant damage to the Skirms, even if the Skirms have 4+2 pierce armor. Since Skirms have low HP, and Scorps deal quite a lot of damage (the same damage as a Knight with Iron Casting), the Skirms can only withstand 6 scorp shots before going down, and this number decreases with each collateral hit. I'd say that Scorps counter skirms.
first!
Mangonels are great because you can destroy your ally's monastery to steal their relics
Ayo hera where de old intro at mate?
Not needed
I never make mangonels because I just end up killing my own units :(.
will there be an AI that can dogde them all ??
rule of thumb is "no matter what you do, NEVER EVER use scorpions"
why dont u instead go fc and make 2 scorpions a ram and a mangonel and stop making vills and make 3 knights :)
I love spamming Scorpions with Teutons
Change your thumbnail and background for such learning videos to separate it from your gameplay videos.
mangonels ignore armor instead of melee damage i think
You kinda forgot to mention how scorpions are very weak vs magonels. Actually, scorpions are very weak vs all other siege.
lol, you are talking bs dude.
you say best is mixing the two... yet ive never seen you use both, usually you go for manganels.
and you also say scorpions are better on defense... no. manganels get beaten by manganels way better, so usually when someone is pushing in with a manganel and army, the defending pro also makes a manganel to kill it. not to mention rams. you cant really kill rams with scorpions. you can however kill them with a manganel
Plz try to talk slower, somethimes get hard to understand the lenguage and the information 😅