Hey man, I gotta congratulate you, not only on your sound and audio knowledge, but how well produced your videos are. Color correction, editing techniques, tricks and tips to show us more visually all the resources that you're delivering. Kudos man, that whole combination makes it easy and pleasant to understand what you're teaching. :)
Glyn is/was my old school chum and when we left school he got a job at IBC studios and I had formed a rock band called The Presidents. At weekends Glyn would invite us up to the studio and try out his new skills and the combination got us signed to Decca Records. Here is a link to one of the tracks we recorded with Glyn at the controls which was passed to Decca but somehow got lost BUT was found in LA in 2018 and released that June - so here one hears one of his earliest productions mimed with the original line up which I managed to get together. Please share the link - @
This has been my go to drum mic technique since I was a poor twenty- something in the eighties with only four working mics. I used two 1960s Shure Unisphere omnis for the "overheads", a 1970s SM57 on the snare, and a 1950s EV Mercury 911 crystal omni in the kick. I've upgraded my mic locker a bit since then, but still use the same setup, even if I close mic toms, hat, and add a ribbon or the Sylvia Massey garden hose trick for the room. If you don't have a lot of mics, you can bus/send your two overheads to s new track in your DAW, add a 100% wet delay and/or reverb to create a virtual room mic track and compress to your hearts content.
It works well, but there are some gotchas. The overheads really need to be equidistant to the center of the snare and kick beater to prevent phasing and preserve accurate stereo imaging if you are panning them. Also, if you are tracking in an untreated room, keep the drum set centered to minimize reflections and bass buildup from corners being overemphasized in one of the overheads. Cheers! Charles
Another Glyn Johns style technique is to use the overheads to mic more of the toms. For example: the overhead mic is 24" from the rack tom and the side mic is 24" from the floor toms. Both mics point down at the toms and it keeps them even in the mix. This really only works if you use a snare and kick like you did here.
Ryan...I use this technique a lot when recording my personal "Bonham" kit...!...Great ideas here to make it balance better...which is always the challenge...!...I saw something else on this yesterday...the magic distance for that was 40" for both mics from the snare...!!!...Thanks for all you do my friend...!
I've used this quite a bit... when I'm running out of inputs or I'm too lazy to set up all the mics :P It's my go-to rehearsal recording setup. This plus a BD mic is really easy to mix and sounds good to me, but everything you said is true. It has a lot of issues and if I have the choice I'd much rather have good cymbal separation and add everything else with close mics.
Mix options is what makes more mics the better option. I have got great two mic kit recordings when you solo the kit, sure, but bring it into a mix and your forced to possibly compromise mix decisions you might not make with more potential selections to choose from and or level. If you can get more with 3 as opposed to 6 lets say, then keep experimenting and learning.until you get more with more.
Tried this out the other week in the studio and it worked a treat, then we built up from there once the sound was good, with the simple set up and got some cracking captures so thank you, I have a quick question, if you were set a task to record a band in full, but you weren't allowed to do any processing afterwards, other than volume fades and panning, would you use any processing whilst capturing? or just concentrate on good mic placement and capturing the best take?
I've use it on a "soft track" with brushes instead of a drum stick and i think i sounded pretty good. I went for the sound of the whole kit instead of a more focus sound on every drum
I "Glyn Johns" using dynamic omni mics over the snare and pointing at the HH from across the top of the floor tom. Both mics are of equal distance from the center of the snare. (Like exact equal distance.) I mic the kick, and add a mic (sometimes) on the snare itself. Try the omnis, you'll thank me later.
Hey!! Great video. How high should the OH mic be above the snare? I love this technique but, I'm finding that when I'm using it, it sounds as if my snare and toms are sooooo far away. I'm not using a snare mic 🎤.
I think a lot of the problems with this can be solved with the bassdrum mic. If you keep it the same distance from the snare as the overheads, and by this more way from the bassdrum than usual, you can record the whole low end of the kit with it. this than allows, to cut more body from the overhead. „Transfering“ this to the bd mic if you will. Not only will the bd sound more natural, it is dead center, and so will be the lowest part of the snare and toms. A lot of engeneers in the past miced the bassdrum with more distance. and allthough they were forced a lot of the times, it really has a lot of potential. It is one of the most overlooked things in drum recording these day. Everboy is scared of bleed on their Bassdrum, because it is harder to get that industry standart omph with bleed. but i think it kills the character of the drum most of the times, like i really feel the personality of drum sound is completly lost on 90% of contemporery records.
I like to use a front of kit mic with this setup. About 18 inches away from the kick. Gives the whole kit a little more low end, particularly the floor tom
Yeah, you bring up a good point. For this video, I was trying to get it as authentic as possible toward the end, with pushing the preamps, not measuring the pics, and just the two overheads and kick. I have heard about people putting a front mic out in front of the kit for kick, but still measuring to the snare so that all three mics are equidistant. Not sure if that's what you do, but I'm sure I gotta give it a shot and film it. I might do it all with ribbons.
creativesoundlab Oh man, I would love to see a video demonstrating that technique with all ribbons. That's how I'd like to record drums on my next tracking session. By the way, your videos are killer, man. I'm learning a lot from them. Thanks!
To make this work in the end is proper panning!!!! Some guides say pan the over the snare mic right and the floor tom mic left, but that does not work - pan the OH snare mic right 9 and floor tom left....3
Not sure if it's just my ears but it sounds like the kick is somewhat left in your stereo field. This would probably be fixed by also keeping equal distance to both the snare and kick in the overheads.
Based on the audio sample in this video the floor tom was noticeably louder than the rack tom contrary to your closing remarks. Did you tweak something to bring out the floor tom? Thanks for all of the highly valuable and extremely informative and detailed work.
creativesoundlab it would interesting to hear this set up in a mix... i.e. How does a full mix effect the balance of the toms etc.in any case, these videos are extremely helpful!!
Hey Ryan, another great video. I have an upcoming project that by necessity requires the Glyn Johns method. Your earlier video on the technique was VERY enlightening, it will definitely save me some frustration. I have the good fortune of recording in an old chapel, very big room, very high ceiling. I'm a little worried that the sound will be too ambient and boomy. Should I attempt any isolation on the drums or just concentrate on mic placement?
I think the bigger the room, the easier this technique is to pull off. I haven't done it in a room as large as what you are talking about, but for me most of the problems and frustration comes when the room is small. I would stick to cardioid mics, keep them close as you can, and possibly use a couple gobos or absorption panels around the kit. Check out this video and pay attention to the "Air Studio One With Panels" vs the "Air Studio One" without panels. Great example on how you can tighten up a room if needed in your situation. czcams.com/video/sydt50-Cxhc/video.htmlm21s
Hello Ryan! Great channel man! Could you suggest me some idea to use this technique with the followings mics: - AKG 414 Xls - 2 Beyerdynamic M201 - 1 Beyerdynamic M88 - 1 Shure Sm91 - 1 Zoom H6 How do you recommend use just three of these mics? I'm get started to record my jazz trio (piano/DB) in a small room (4mt x 3.5mt) Not tried yet but I think that is very nice tech for jazz drums recordings... Thanks for your time! Cheers!
Because you have two of the m201s I would use them for this method, and the m88 for the kick. the 414 for piano. I've seen in person the 201s used for overheads and they excelled.
Even just the two overheads and a kick mic is really good, but kick, snare, two overheads is my go-to, and doing it like this would just be a matter of position (and later panning) the two overheads differently. I like it though.
creativesoundlab Sounded good to me. I am just amazed at all the ingenuity and creativity that was inspired by necessity, people had to squeeze an entire band on to 4 tracks, so they just did it. They found ways.
Hi Ryan. I love the less-is-more mindset, but personally I find it hard to "hear" the sound without other instruments playing. I've done shootouts myself and sometimes the "best" sounding mic/setup isn't the one who's working the best in the mix. I guess it might be the same with this technique: maybe the issues aren't so big when you look at the whole "painting"? Thanx for sharing your knowledge! All the best, Nils (Sweden)
Hey man, I gotta congratulate you, not only on your sound and audio knowledge, but how well produced your videos are. Color correction, editing techniques, tricks and tips to show us more visually all the resources that you're delivering. Kudos man, that whole combination makes it easy and pleasant to understand what you're teaching. :)
Thanks man! The color grading has taken years to get right, and some of these shots also have developed too. Thanks so much!
Glyn is/was my old school chum and when we left school he got a job at IBC studios and I had formed a rock band called The Presidents. At weekends Glyn would invite us up to the studio and try out his new skills and the combination got us signed to Decca Records. Here is a link to one of the tracks we recorded with Glyn at the controls which was passed to Decca but somehow got lost BUT was found in LA in 2018 and released that June - so here one hears one of his earliest productions mimed with the original line up which I managed to get together. Please share the link - @
This has been my go to drum mic technique since I was a poor twenty- something in the eighties with only four working mics. I used two 1960s Shure Unisphere omnis for the "overheads", a 1970s SM57 on the snare, and a 1950s EV Mercury 911 crystal omni in the kick.
I've upgraded my mic locker a bit since then, but still use the same setup, even if I close mic toms, hat, and add a ribbon or the Sylvia Massey garden hose trick for the room.
If you don't have a lot of mics, you can bus/send your two overheads to s new track in your DAW, add a 100% wet delay and/or reverb to create a virtual room mic track and compress to your hearts content.
It works well, but there are some gotchas. The overheads really need to be equidistant to the center of the snare and kick beater to prevent phasing and preserve accurate stereo imaging if you are panning them.
Also, if you are tracking in an untreated room, keep the drum set centered to minimize reflections and bass buildup from corners being overemphasized in one of the overheads.
Cheers!
Charles
Another Glyn Johns style technique is to use the overheads to mic more of the toms. For example: the overhead mic is 24" from the rack tom and the side mic is 24" from the floor toms. Both mics point down at the toms and it keeps them even in the mix. This really only works if you use a snare and kick like you did here.
Great idea. I'll have to try that.
Ryan...I use this technique a lot when recording my personal "Bonham" kit...!...Great ideas here to make it balance better...which is always the challenge...!...I saw something else on this yesterday...the magic distance for that was 40" for both mics from the snare...!!!...Thanks for all you do my friend...!
I took the floor tom mic a lot more further out behind the drummer, and it worked very well.
Plain and simple. Thank you.
I've used this quite a bit... when I'm running out of inputs or I'm too lazy to set up all the mics :P
It's my go-to rehearsal recording setup. This plus a BD mic is really easy to mix and sounds good to me, but everything you said is true. It has a lot of issues and if I have the choice I'd much rather have good cymbal separation and add everything else with close mics.
Ha, yeah. There are parts to this technique that sound really vibey and cool. But there are tons of issues if you want control.
Mix options is what makes more mics the better option. I have got great two mic kit recordings when you solo the kit, sure, but bring it into a mix and your forced to possibly compromise mix decisions you might not make with more potential selections to choose from and or level. If you can get more with 3 as opposed to 6 lets say, then keep experimenting and learning.until you get more with more.
thank you ,nice and concise, and just what I was looking for.
Sure thing!
Tried this out the other week in the studio and it worked a treat, then we built up from there once the sound was good, with the simple set up and got some cracking captures so thank you, I have a quick question, if you were set a task to record a band in full, but you weren't allowed to do any processing afterwards, other than volume fades and panning, would you use any processing whilst capturing? or just concentrate on good mic placement and capturing the best take?
I've use it on a "soft track" with brushes instead of a drum stick and i think i sounded pretty good. I went for the sound of the whole kit instead of a more focus sound on every drum
Thanks for the detailed vid as always man. People like to romanticize this technique and it's good to hear some real-life perspective on it
I "Glyn Johns" using dynamic omni mics over the snare and pointing at the HH from across the top of the floor tom. Both mics are of equal distance from the center of the snare. (Like exact equal distance.) I mic the kick, and add a mic (sometimes) on the snare itself. Try the omnis, you'll thank me later.
Hey!! Great video. How high should the OH mic be above the snare? I love this technique but, I'm finding that when I'm using it, it sounds as if my snare and toms are sooooo far away. I'm not using a snare mic 🎤.
Sounds like British Steel. Although that was Tom Allom. So many variables. Gotta do what you gotta do in every situation to get what you want.
I think a lot of the problems with this can be solved with the bassdrum mic. If you keep it the same distance from the snare as the overheads, and by this more way from the bassdrum than usual, you can record the whole low end of the kit with it. this than allows, to cut more body from the overhead. „Transfering“ this to the bd mic if you will. Not only will the bd sound more natural, it is dead center, and so will be the lowest part of the snare and toms. A lot of engeneers in the past miced the bassdrum with more distance. and allthough they were forced a lot of the times, it really has a lot of potential. It is one of the most overlooked things in drum recording these day. Everboy is scared of bleed on their Bassdrum, because it is harder to get that industry standart omph with bleed. but i think it kills the character of the drum most of the times, like i really feel the personality of drum sound is completly lost on 90% of contemporery records.
I like to use a front of kit mic with this setup. About 18 inches away from the kick. Gives the whole kit a little more low end, particularly the floor tom
Yeah, you bring up a good point. For this video, I was trying to get it as authentic as possible toward the end, with pushing the preamps, not measuring the pics, and just the two overheads and kick. I have heard about people putting a front mic out in front of the kit for kick, but still measuring to the snare so that all three mics are equidistant. Not sure if that's what you do, but I'm sure I gotta give it a shot and film it. I might do it all with ribbons.
creativesoundlab Oh man, I would love to see a video demonstrating that technique with all ribbons. That's how I'd like to record drums on my next tracking session.
By the way, your videos are killer, man. I'm learning a lot from them. Thanks!
To make this work in the end is proper panning!!!!
Some guides say pan the over the snare mic right and the floor tom mic left, but that does not work - pan the OH snare mic right 9 and floor tom left....3
Not sure if it's just my ears but it sounds like the kick is somewhat left in your stereo field. This would probably be fixed by also keeping equal distance to both the snare and kick in the overheads.
Based on the audio sample in this video the floor tom was noticeably louder than the rack tom contrary to your closing remarks. Did you tweak something to bring out the floor tom? Thanks for all of the highly valuable and extremely informative and detailed work.
Yeah you are right about that. I should have articulated that I wished the floor tom had more low end, and was fuller sounding.
Ya know on second thought, this highlights why this is so frustrating. You want to get some proximity effect going but the tom was already too loud.
creativesoundlab it would interesting to hear this set up in a mix... i.e. How does a full mix effect the balance of the toms etc.in any case, these videos are extremely helpful!!
Yeah, totally, plus when you use compression how much of the problems go away or get worse.
creativesoundlab have covered compression on cymbals/overheads in previous video lessons?
Hey Ryan, another great video. I have an upcoming project that by necessity requires the Glyn Johns method. Your earlier video on the technique was VERY enlightening, it will definitely save me some frustration. I have the good fortune of recording in an old chapel, very big room, very high ceiling. I'm a little worried that the sound will be too ambient and boomy. Should I attempt any isolation on the drums or just concentrate on mic placement?
I think the bigger the room, the easier this technique is to pull off. I haven't done it in a room as large as what you are talking about, but for me most of the problems and frustration comes when the room is small. I would stick to cardioid mics, keep them close as you can, and possibly use a couple gobos or absorption panels around the kit. Check out this video and pay attention to the "Air Studio One With Panels" vs the "Air Studio One" without panels. Great example on how you can tighten up a room if needed in your situation. czcams.com/video/sydt50-Cxhc/video.htmlm21s
Awesome, thanks so much for the input!
Hello Ryan! Great channel man!
Could you suggest me some idea to use this technique with the followings mics:
- AKG 414 Xls
- 2 Beyerdynamic M201
- 1 Beyerdynamic M88
- 1 Shure Sm91
- 1 Zoom H6
How do you recommend use just three of these mics? I'm get started to record my jazz trio (piano/DB) in a small room (4mt x 3.5mt)
Not tried yet but I think that is very nice tech for jazz drums recordings...
Thanks for your time!
Cheers!
Because you have two of the m201s I would use them for this method, and the m88 for the kick. the 414 for piano. I've seen in person the 201s used for overheads and they excelled.
Even just the two overheads and a kick mic is really good, but kick, snare, two overheads is my go-to, and doing it like this would just be a matter of position (and later panning) the two overheads differently. I like it though.
Nice! Yeah, I was trying to do the traditional set up. I may or may not have gotten it right, although it turned out better thanI was expecting.
creativesoundlab Sounded good to me. I am just amazed at all the ingenuity and creativity that was inspired by necessity, people had to squeeze an entire band on to 4 tracks, so they just did it. They found ways.
can u post the link u mentioned that improves on the sound of the floor tom? thanks.
HQ pdf. thanks
Thanks, glad you thought the PDF was high quality!
Hi Ryan. I love the less-is-more mindset, but personally I find it hard to "hear" the sound without other instruments playing. I've done shootouts myself and sometimes the "best" sounding mic/setup isn't the one who's working the best in the mix. I guess it might be the same with this technique: maybe the issues aren't so big when you look at the whole "painting"?
Thanx for sharing your knowledge!
All the best,
Nils (Sweden)
Yeah that makes sense. I can play it along to a song when I film the next video.
Is there a particular Reason you're using Large Diapraghms?
No except this is not my own technique, so I'm following tradition.
I actually thought it sounded very good! Not bothered by the floor Tom at all.
add a bottom mic to floor tom.
this problem could easily be solved if you would switch the position of the ride and your second crash.
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