Carbon EXPERT Reviews My £300 Chinese Carbon Frame!!
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- čas přidán 7. 01. 2023
- A big thanks to Rob at - carbonbikerepair.co.uk/wp/
In today's video, we're using Rob's top-of-the-line £40,000 scanner to create a super high-def 3D scan of my cheapo carbon frame. This way, we can really get in there and check out all the nooks and crannies using some fancy software. But don't worry, we're not relying solely on technology - we've also got Rob's expert human eye to spot any anomalies.
It's always interesting to see how advanced technology compares to the trained human eye. And let's be real, who doesn't love a good old-fashioned inspection by a pro?
In the next part of this series, we'll be cutting the frame in half for an even closer look at that carbon. Stay tuned!
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PS. When I provide a link here to gear or equipment I sometimes get a kickback from it. But I NEVER link to something that I haven't used or did use and didn't like! 👍 - Sport
Almost every major brands lower end carbon frames are built the same way - lots of carbon and heavier (almost to the same weight as AL) compared to their highest end models. Usually also made in the same factories as well. Carbon is actually a very cheap way of manufacturing, the expense mostly comes the mold and prep we really shouldn't be paying the absurd prices bike companies charge for them.
Yes. It commercially costs 10,000 USD for a mold. To a factory, it is probably less than half of that.A mold can make 50 Frames. The carbon costs next to nothing. With very cheap labour and costs, factories are spending $150-$200 to make a frame
“Build in the same factory” does not mean “built to the same quality control standards”.
Cheap frames are cheap for a reason
@@benfinesilver2250 are the molds "compromised" after 50 frames? i thought the molds could be used indefinitely?
@@konanoobiemaster Hi. I asked factories because a friend of mine has designs for bikes. I live in China. They said the mold could be used about 50 times before needing to be replaced.
@@benfinesilver2250 thank you sir i had no idea!
Part 2 is now live where we cut the frame in half - czcams.com/video/wn60LWtKgx0/video.html
Fascinating video! Just getting into cycling at 63 years old and the rabbit hole has now brought me here.
Awesome to hear that you are getting into cycling! It's also good that the rabbit hole brought you here, I must be doing something right 😂
I'm in the same boat. Don't know whether to get a second hand "name" brand frame and upgrade the group set to what I want or start with a cheaper new frame
@@doubledark2 Honestly you can get some great deals for second-hand bikes. If you are new to the cycling world then that's a great route to take. 👍🏽
Over the last 2 yrs (particularly) people don't trust brands they're not familiar with.. Yet the ones they do end up in CBR. Goes to show they can't all be accident repairs if there's a full time business fixing them!
Good point!!
Very interesting video. Thanks ,looking forward to the second part.
Glad you enjoyed it
What a great, interesting video! I love to listen to people who know what they are doing.
Glad you enjoyed it!
Enjoying your content Jourdain. Thanks for another interesting vid. Cheers.
Thanks Donovan, glad you enjoyed the video 👍🏼
Super interesting, looking forward to part 2!
Awesome, thank you!
Rob is a freak'n Genius!
Thanks for the substantive analysis.
Glad it was helpful!
I've got scanner envy that's a great bit of tech. I'm a bit old school in the sense i still like using a vernier and micrometer but for what this guy is doing i see the benefits.
Super interesting. Especially with the forks. Really critical component 😬
great vid. looking forward to the next chapter.
Glad you enjoyed it
This video is super helpful and informative
Part 3 - Rob puts it back together!!! :D
hahah... that would be a good video, and a big challenge for them I'm sure. I would like to do a full build in the future using a repaired frame.
That was awesome. Thanks.
Glad you enjoyed it!
Radius on the fork assembly has nothing to do with the deflection of the fork. Resistance to deflection depends on the flexural rigidity (EI) and the stiffness of the end connection. Flexural rigidity is increased by either increasing E (Young’s modulus) which is a material property or I (The Second Moment Area) which is determined by the section dimensions and material thickness. Both forks have similar external dimensions, so it is very likely that the cheaper fork is thinner and or is built from a lower grade of carbon fibre. Is that a problem? Well it depends. Providing the fork is rated for the potential static and dynamic loads it will experience it is unlikely to catastrophically fail even if it’s flexible.
Can load rating be calculated by determining the Young's modulus acoustically?
@@philhunt1442 Simple answer is I’m not sure. Are acoustic methods reliable for composite materials? Not sure why you’d want to do that unless you were uncertain about the source and provenance of the material in the first place? In that circumstance I’d be a little inclined to be wary. What I was describing above was design properties. If you want to confirm the structural integrity of something that already exists then load test it with loads that are comparable to what it will see in service and follow that up with visual inspection and NDT. If you are designing using material that has uncertain properties then take a conservative approach (build in significant safety margins)
@@donharrold1375 Ah, I see. I think modal testing is indeed reliable, simple and straightforward and is a great way to get exact stiffness values for custom wheel building, for example, using hooke's law you can derive stiffness from an experimental frequency result of an object by squaring it and multiplying by mass. This negates the potentially destructive nature of limit testing along with many other benefits to the traditional design process. But also useful to test and compare cheaper overseas production vs domestic and determine which parts have negligible differences in strength.
@@philhunt1442 Thanks for the interesting observations and comments; not sure I understand them all, but it’s always interesting to hear different takes and opinions. One of the interesting challenges of manufacturing bikes (essentially consumer goods) is the need to optimise strength, stiffness and aerodynamic properties whilst minimising weight, without creating an impractically expensive or potentially dangerous product. Control over details is critical. Buying direct from Chinese factories gives me a degree of anxiety because of the possibility that manufacturing and cost compromises might unwittingly lead to a product becoming unsafe. That could happen with big international brands too, but qualified management systems make it less likely.
I thought it a bit strange the guy went on about sideways flex on fork blades that are clamped at the other end by the front wheel. Don't see how fore/aft flex would be greatly affected by the radius of the fork crown in that direction, so what's the big deal?
Very informative video, thanks & subbed. Not in the least the bit where the specialist mentions he repairs a lot of Canyon carbon drive side seat stays.
Thanks for the sub! Glad you enjoyed the video
Tha's very interesting, thanks for this great video. I got a chinese frame since years and I will not hesitate to order another one.
Good to hear you have had good experiences with frames sourced directly from Asia! Mine have all been good so far 👍🏼
Don't buy cheap Chinese made frames.
Buy OUR Chinese made with EXPENSIVE decals frames hanging on the wall behind me.
Why wouldn't you buy a cheap frame from china? No one has said this frame was bad, plus there is part 2 coming. The expensive frame on the wall only cost £700 for the whole bike second hand
@@JourdainColeman he summed up the whole trade fairly.
2:30 Is that Rachmaninoff's 2nd piano concerto playing in the background? 3rd movement Lol. Rob has an amazing musical taste too :D
Really hoped to see some active thermography from that frame - isn't that the preferred method?
Omg I was so close!!!!!! He was just here in the states!
great detailed video
Glad you liked it!
I'm not defending trifox or anything, but this one I guess is their lower end frames. There's newer ones the x16 and x18 (although still, "Heavily Inspired" by spez tarmac) which I hope you'd give it a look as well.
You'll be intrigued to see part 2! Hopefully I can get my hands on other frames in the future and do the same thing 👍🏽
Aren't these frames from an open mold they used to build (or still build) for another manufacturer?
You'd be better comparing the trifox to the cippolini that it's copied off. To get a better comparison.
Surely the answer to where to clamp is the seat post? Easily replaceable if it breaks.
Just remember your brand name bike as ridden in the Tour de France is a Chinese made carbon frame
I know very little about bikes but on the flex thing, when the wheels are on, it wont flex so much? would it affect ride or is it a failure risk down the road?
Not necessarily, when the wheel is fitted the through axle essentially turns the arrangement into a square box which is very stiff, the forks won't be able to flex relative to each other.
Thinking about it mechanically it might have slightly lower stiffness laterally but if there's that much lateral load going through the bike then uh... You probably have bigger things to worry about 😂😂💥
wait he has the newest bianchi oltre already? when was this video recorded? 😅✌
That point about seatstays breaking is kinda funny. I've seen several bikes where people are riding around on a broken seatstay bring it to their shop complaining about a noise or weird ride feel. I don't know about carbon, but with steel people have gotten away with riding with a broken seatstay for far longer than you or I would feel comfortable with.
Seatstays and seat tubes are some of the least necessary structures on the bike (bikes have literally been designed and built without them for almost 30 years), and as such aren't worth worrying about a whole ton.
Thanks this is super interesting.
Glad you enjoyed it
I would like to see a comparison between a high end Chinese frame ($ 1500) compared to let’s say a Specialized
(Yoeleo/ winspace)
Because I have seen recently two Specialized frames that have cracked I think these ultra light weight frames are not useful except for riders that get them for free because they are sponsored
300 grams extra weight makes approx 10 seconds difference on a 1000m high difference climb (who cares if you are not a hill climbing racer?)
@RealSweetKid me too I think It is an unfair comparison a frame for 3000 vs one for 300 bugs
Knowing that the one for 3000 is also made in China
Given a rider weight of 65 kg, two bicycles with weights of 8 kg and 8.3 kg, and a 7.8% incline over a distance of 1 km, we can calculate the following:
Bicycle 1 (8 kg): Average speed = 24.7 km/h, time to climb = 2 minutes and 25 seconds
Bicycle 2 (8.3 kg): Average speed = 24.5 km/h, time to climb = 2 minutes and 27 seconds
So the rider on the 8 kg bicycle would climb the 7.8% incline over 1 km in approximately 2 minutes and 25 seconds at an average speed of 24.7 km/h, while the rider on the 8.3 kg bicycle would climb the incline in approximately 2 minutes and 27 seconds at an average speed of 24.5 km/h. Thats for a rider with 400w watt output
They crank whenever they crash. Carbon frames are good at taking slow pressure but can't handle impact hits whatsoever. So any crash or curb bump will totally destroy the frame. It could probably take a bunny hop hit
New sub here !!!! On my way to watch pt.2
Welcome 🚴🏼
So, how do they compare to Cambridge M1s ?
That Engineer was very impressive.
This carbon explanation gives me new light in tonwhat actually could have happened to the Titan submersible when it imploded on the way down to the Titanic. Someone could have very well over stressed and over torqued a component that was attached to the carbon fiber tube and caused fractures in its structure. Carbon can be somewhat forgiving but once it's damaged, it's done.
Nice job
Has anyone ever wondered why Rob's repair shop is full of carbon frames?
Because it's a carbon repair shop, he doesn't work on aluminum or steel bikes. Aluminum bikes are cheap enough they're usually just thrown out, and steel frames can be rewelded anywhere. Carbon takes special expertise to fix.
The fact is his shop is full of carbon frames because carbon isn't the best material to use for bikes because it isn't pliable and too brittle. Also, you will not find any Bike shop full of steel or aluminium frames because they just don't break that easy.
Hmmm... wondering why Jiffy Lube is chock full of cars with brake issues. 🙄
When the cutting tool starts to tear up the frame im a bit sad of it...this kind of chinese carbon frame is a luxury to us here in my country..im wishing to have that kind of frame and you guys just cut it apart but this vids help me know a lot more about this kind of frame. Still wishing to have this frame though hope someday...
I was also very sad! Although I had not had the frame long I get attached to bikes. This frame will go on the wall as a good memory and good education
Well, truly, the best education is expensive. But still, these series of vidz will have the bike enthusiasts/geeks a wider perspective of choosing their best bike frames.
you should do this stuff with a big name brand frame like trek or giant
Id' like to for sure 👍🏽
Your Trifox X10 looks exactly like the Cipollini NK1K. The difference I see is the NK1K has a cover at the head tube where the steerer exits.
Agree, they need to compare this frame to the cippolini nk1k.
@@chriscross5689 Ask Super Mario to send one in! Just don't try to date his ex-wife!
I have access to a General Electric ultrasound machine to examine frames as needed .
I am cringing more at the position of that Unifi access point than the clamping of the bike frame. On a serious note, top team at CBR as had more frame repaired, 3 months ago
Good to hear you have had a good experience with CBR! Their setup is amazing 👌🏼
I wonder at the end he can guess the price 🤔. Thanks Jourdain for taking the time to do this.
😢
Carbon for pro athlète best choice aluminium lights and titanium
be very interesting to make a (unfair)? comparison between a calfee colnago sworks
TLDL - what's the 10-word result?
Ever done a Trek Madone 4.5? I'm pretty impressed with mine: has all the features you say it should: aluminum re-enforces dropouts, drain holes etc.
BUT, I don't know how much design & manufacturing excellence went into it.
Interesting comment as I have the exact same frame and love it because its so comfortable.
@@2wheelsrbest327Meanwhile my Madone 6.2 just lost a piece of its rear dropout where the derailleur hanger screws in 😭
This is not normal bike stand is it?
As my old man said to me regarding bikes, "buy it nice or buy it twice..."
On this case you can buy it 4-5 times before you get to the better quality price points. Frames are crazy expensive nowadays.
Fascinating, I didn’t know this technology existed
Shot bru, lank interesting
09:05 why are these two different size is the real question here ? of course the longer one (in this case the chinese) will be more flexy , its simple physics.
Where is part 2?
The lesson is to buy bikes without seatstays, eliminating that point of weakness
Love your content but cam Nicolls bought this frame and had an carbon expert review it,came out as very average.why did you buy to destroy?
I have a Delihea rest with Sensah empire 11 speed,and elite carbon 50s rim brake. love it.
Yeah, I saw his videos. The mechanic didn't have a good time at all putting the bike together.
so whats to point of scaning the frame? to say this is a straight line?
have you scanned a high-end carbon frame to compare it to though? 🤔
Not yet, it would be good to do that though 👍🏽
Our local pro uses China carbon frame to compete in international bike races and he has zero issues 😂
Where did you buy this btw?
I bought the frame second hand of ebay 👍🏽
i use an alloy fork on my carbon frame. I trust a carbon frame more than a carbon fork.
Yes, But how much does this cost?
To be honest... I'm not sure myself. Frame fixes should be much cheaper than buying a new frame 👍🏼
Trifox frame with Italian flag colors?!?!
I’m enjoying the bike so far czcams.com/users/postUgkxMesz3KOGEmwmvyKQfLfrRSUXLFzfVHZA My only real complaints are the brakes and the pedals. I feel like a bike designed for bigger people should have much larger pedals and more heavy duty brakes. I’ve only gotten two really good rides out of it, minimal downhill action, and the brakes feel like they’re already going out. A larger person has more momentum, so I think this wasn’t thought through very well. Also, I wear size 13-14 wide shoes. My feet cramp up on these pedals that are clearly made for smaller feet. Since I’m not a pro rider (and I don’t think many are who purchase this bike) I don’t think that the straps on the pedal are necessary at all. None of this takes away from the enjoyment I get from riding, however. I’ll just head to a bike shop to improve on a few things.
So if your frame isn't spot on, how much performance is lost?
Nothing just durability problems.
Show me a 'repaired' carbon bike, I'll show you ............ straight to casualty!!!
What we don’t know is who an entry-level frame from a mainstream western bike manufacturer compares.
I have a few mainstream frame inspection videos coming soon 👀
How about the elves?
I'd say elves and something like SEKA are a cut above trifox for sure. Winspace as well.
I won't be cutting my Elves bike up anytime soon. I can just about manage loosing £300 for educational videos but not expensive frames.
@@JourdainColeman got it, but I don't mean cutting just scan it
Try the twitter carbon it's also a cheap chinese carbon
I've not heard of them, Ill check them out 👍🏽
@@JourdainColeman One of the cheapest carbon money can buy
How much for their lower end frame? can u buy frame only though?
This dude sounds like he is from South Africa ?
Ja bru fully like onetime ekse.
Hy is! Ja nee
Personally, i dont mess with carbon for my bike but it's great to know exactly what we're missing just in case of gettin one of those cheap chinese frame.
All carbon frames are cheap just stick a big name brand on them and they charge what they like
@@Tarmaccyclocross that’s not really what the video shows tbh
Carbon Shit on my orbea Triathlon Bike, fork head Tube broke by nothing after only approx. 9.000 im. High danger risk in running Traffic ...
Some parts May OK in Carbon, but never forks or Front parts.
The test is more expensive than the frame
As a few others have also pointed out in the comments the fork flexibility test really has pretty near zero application to what the fork does in real world conditions. Based on the exact same criteria the cheap bike that has a 3mm thick top of the top tube is obviously far superior than a Canyon et al that have a super thin flexible top on the top tube. That test of the forks is about as informative as a GCN free hub sound check. If the spacing for the front axle isn't exactly spot on then having some flexibility built into the profile would be beneficial as to force the arms of the fork in or out will be pre-loading the forks and creating an unneeded stress.
Other than that Rob's gear and analysis was a fair eye opener.
Yeah the fork test is arbitrary really. It's interesting to see how the radius of the fork and carbon effects this stiffness. You may like this video if you are interested in the carbon stiffness etc. I compare a canyon to the trifox - czcams.com/video/pYBY78-zs7Q/video.html
That 3mm thick top tube isn't necessarily thick - if it has air pockets and lose strands of carbon all over, it will be flimsier than thin Canyon top tube.
My friends keep telling me to upgrade from aluminum. Nah son, aluminum is far more forgiving and when I do upgrade, it's to titanium.
Titanium sounds great - but have you checked what fork you will get with a titanium frame ....? Wanted to get one after a carbon fork failure and couldn't find any titanium frame without a carbon fork
We all know someone with a broken Canyon
Wow, that expensive frame is much better then super cheap one!
And ansver to smartass from the video, chinese didn't made cheap one that way because they don't know how, they made it that way to be cheap! Logical, don't you agree?
Чем легче велосипедная рама и туман истории производства рамы тем толще должен быть шлем велосипедиста.можно надеть на голову шлем с системой мипс 😂
With all respect." You put the carbon in " It's not that simple even for the Chinese.I am sure you will one day show a video of what it takes to form - make a carbon frame before it goes inside the mold.
I'd love to go to a factory one day!
I’m still on Cyfac Aluminium/scandium 😉
I've learned enough with my experiences over the years that carbon doesn't belong on any of my bikes. You want carbon and are willing to take the risks I wish you luck, but it's got to be made of metal for me the rest of my days.
OK boomer
Then don't fly on any recently built aircraft or drive many of the latest automobiles. Many have carbon fiber parts.
@@jamesmckenzie3532 Care to point out what those are? Do you work on airplanes or is that something somebody told you?
@Charles Man Wing surfaces are a major area where carbon fiber is replacing aluminium. Not much stresses and it's actually lighter. Some planes are using carbon fiber in the fuselage as this is another area where weight can be saved.
@@charlesmansplainingaircraft parts like the entire horizontal stabilizers for large je liners or entire wings and large part of their internal structure... you can look up the flex test for aicraft wings.... the carbon wings of the most modern jets flex many meters...
In cars its anything from body panels, parts of the car shell, supercars use carbon for the entire mocoque, high end race cars lik F1/F2/F3 or the endurance racing LMP cars are made out of carbon fibre monocoqe and carbon/kevlar body panels... even stuff like control arms, prop shafts for over 1000Nm are made of carbon...
The list is pretty much endless from sport equipment to medical stuff to cars planes bikes safety equipment like helmets or crash structures in many aplications.... cars and planes use carbon brakes sure its different technology and type of carbon but still a carbon...
absolutely missing the point here. We buy a branded product because branding assures a level of accountability. With a Trek, Specialized or Giant there is always someone reliable to go back to if a problem occurs. A big brand is not going to risk its reputation (and survival) by putting out crap product, because rectifying problems will cost them dearly and puts them at a competitive disadvantage. A recall can easily cost mullions and can't be insured against. With unbranded products the cost is lower because the supplier does not have the costs of providing accountabiliy. In order to be fully accountable, and survive in business, a brand needs to invest in testing, quality control, liability insurance, and a network of distributors and dealers to provide service. To get dealers, and consumers prepared to pay the premium prices necessary to cover these costs, they also have to invest in marketing in the form of advertising, pro team support, etc. Marketing costs big money. With discount price, unbranded frames there is none of this. It's the wild west and the consumer is taking a great risk. There is little or no accountability, and consistency can be an issue. Carbon frames are laid up by hand, so no two frames are ever identical. Cutting up one sample to look inside will tell you far less than finding out whether you're likely to get paid out in a law suit if it fails and hurts you, and wherther there will be a global recall to prevent it happeening to anyone else. The mainstream brands have a vested interest in not hurting their consumers! This stuff is all that keeps your chin from being ground away on the tarmac. Buying cheap, unbranded products is a mug's game. Caveat emptor...
Will a £300 frame kill you? What about a £800 frame?
So you effectively threw away £300 - you must have money
The video could have been considerably shorter (and better) if you didn't make cuts every few seconds where you just repeated what Rob said.
Higher end carbon frames are great and are every bit as good as big brands like Spez or Cannondale. Entry level carbon frames are a bit of gamble. Especially something like Trifox/Delileah/TFSA as TFSA is the actual OEM behind them and it is not a very reliable manufacturer - QC is all over the place and they tend to copy frames without having a second thought (i.e. x18 frame being a direct copy of Tarmac SL7, including the faulty headset design).
Drink a shot every time he says “cheap Chinese carbon frame”
Fact is most of our components and frames come from the far east because Labour is far cheaper . Therefore they are all cheap “far east “frames . The difference is , you don’t make a saving , the big brands make a big profit. .
This is not true. Taiwan is not China. Not all things made in the “far east” are made to the same quality standards
You should do the load test, stress test, .... pls dont say thin or thick!!
Like in any industry, we need to understand we're overpaying for our bikes... Never bought a carbon one and wont be buying one in the near future
So basically just buy aluminum or steel frames
Or titanium
Only thing I’ve learned is don’t buy a Canyon bike
Filipinos rate it by flicking it
haha
I would not get a carbon bike repaired. It’s a one off when it’s damaged bin it.
Метал лучше по всем параметрам.
it is a bias, you should also compare big brands like trek, cannondale... etc. so that you could see the actual difference.
I'd love to cut up a well known brand frame. But they cost 3x as much. This video I lost around £500 so with a well known frame that would be more like £1500. It would simply cost too much. Maybe one day I'll be able to do that... I should start a Patreon 🤔
@@JourdainColeman ohhhhh... ithought it was sponsored... sorry my bad
@@JourdainColeman to be fair you have an expert who knows how the more expensive frames are manufactured and is comparing it to them based on his knowledge.
This is part of the business. Today, marketing strategiest are now using CZcams vloggers. 😂
That scanning is performed by human to be able to create 3d images. And the results can be altered throu a procedural execution along the process...
Why should I believe to what ever the results are in this video?.
So you cut it up for more videos
I love the channel, and the humor and wisdom you put in your videos. That being said, I don't ever see myself buying a Chinese groupset, and the closest I'll ever get to buying a Chinese frame is by a Western brand where their frame happens to be made in China. Unfortunately, this channel just isn't for me.
I always laugh when I see Italian flag decals on things that are so obviously NOT Italian. Is anyone fooled by this? I wonder.