State Control of Temples: The Constitutional Question | PART I | Adv. Anand Prasad & Rahul Dewan
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- čas přidán 25. 07. 2024
- The perception of religion by the constitution navigates the delicate balance between state and religion, a complex construct further complicated by the judiciary's interpretation of Hinduism, a faith-defying simple definition. Our constitutional stance dictates how the state must engage with religion, urging a departure from materialism towards a deeper understanding of faith and belief. Despite insights from ancient texts like the Arthashastra on right governance, modern India often overlooks this wisdom. Legal interpretations, influenced by Christian principles, sometimes neglect Dharmic perspectives, notably absent in debates on constitutional provisions like Articles 25 and 26. This secular state's struggle to comprehend religion was evident in cases like Sabarimala, exposing the judiciary's limitations in interpreting religious issues without adequate expertise or public moral alignment, highlighting the futility of expert calls in such matters.
Stay tuned for the part II
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About The Speakers:
Anand Prasad is a corporate/commercial lawyer with more than three decades of experience representing domestic and international clients on various legal and commercial issues. He co-founded Trilegal, one of India’s leading full-service law firms, and served on the firm’s management committee from 2012 until 2016. Adv. Anand returned to full-time private practice in 2019 along with former colleagues. He established AP & Partners. He has been cited in independent legal directories such as Legal 500 and Chambers and Partners as a market leader for corporate and commercial laws in India for well over a decade.
Rahul Dewan is an entrepreneur, angel investor, open-source software evangelist, and the founder and CEO of Srijan Technologies, an *18-year-old enterprise web content management consulting and development company with offices in New Delhi, Gurgaon, Goa, Bangalore, and San Francisco. Srijan excels in building products for online businesses using Drupal as the core technology. He is a writer, blogger, social activist, and a Sadhaka, who has devoted his life as a soldier to the cause of Bhartiya cultural revival, literally by all means. One of these ventures is Sarayu Trust, where we strive to reclaim our cultural heritage.
Topics Covered:
00:00 Secular State: Inability to Comprehend Religion
01:04 Synopsys of the Talk
05:12 Introduction
07:24 Constitutional Construct of How The State And Religion Must Engage With Each Other
10:05 Hard to Define Religion And Even Harder to Define Hinduism
11:09 Our Constitutional Stand: How a State Must Engage With Religion
13:52 Time to be Moving Away From The Materialistic Construct: Faith And Believe
19:17 Right Governance in Arthashastra: How The Modern State of India Ignores The Ancient Wisdom
20:12 Charvaka Philosophy on Legal Interpretation
20:50 Faith And Belief: Christian Influence on Indian Legal Interpretation
24:44 The Absence of Dharmic Aspect in The Constitutional Debates: The Reasoning
28:14 The Karmic Understanding of Good And Evil
33:14 The Consequential Believe System Behind Article 25, 26 of the Constitution
39:08 The Need to Accept The Limitation in the Judiciary And Reshape in Accordance With Public Morality
50:05 Sabarimala Case: Incapability of the Judiciary to Interpret Religious Issues
55:46 The Practice of Calling in an Expert Doesn’t Work in The Religious Matters
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This is a deep exploration into how the very framework of the Constitution of India makes it hard for the courts to offer useful counsel on religious matters. It is something that few are aware of.
Like Anand says it's core principles are taken from the enlightenment and reformation movements that were born in Europe and which advocates for a strict separation between church and state.
While this has a valid place in modern democracies, it is important to also define and introduce new parameters that can satisfactorily adress the question of religion - beliefs and experiences - that have their own truth and place in the sphere of human life be they inter democracies or not.
This matter is even more pressing in the case of India shackled as it is by outdated laws surrounding religion that go back to colonial times. These were enacted not out of experience but political expediency.
It's time to bring a fresh and nuanced understanding of religion and the spiritual life that can be included in a dynamic and evolving democratic constitution.
Hopefully by doing this India will set an example for the rest of the world - that being secular and religious are not antithetical as many think ~
Only recently I have started judging my actions keeping in mind rebirth.
I do not believe that our courts do not believe karma theory.We see in so many cases the courts even supreme court , unlike common people thinking , give judgements letting them to be punished in future birth.They believe in rebirth.Hope most of the viewers would agree.
😂 a good satirical comment 😂
Free Temples from State Control ❤❤❤
Satya Sanatan Hindu Dharam ki Jai
To whom government should handover the Control of Temples. If I in a position - I would form a Hindu Mandir Organization like “Hindu Organisations, Temples and Associations (HOTA)” within India. Build a big office & other facility under Ajodhya Ram Mandir Land. Take the control all Hindu mandir which are now controlled by states.
Each temple should be under a trust, Members of that trust should comprise of only those who belong to that sampradaya of that temple. All trusts should be monitored by a larger trust, with perhaps a member from the government to only look into financial aspects.
@@longerodds5077 and money should be used to promote Gurukuls 🙏🏻🚩
@@longerodds5077 Individual trust will not work... Need common future road map to empower Hindus in all aspects , work on Ghar Wapsi. Need money and it will be the same money govt is taking today... No involvement of govt...
@@longerodds5077
Namaskaram
Hope you understand about the govt clutch and again on the name of trust you are bringing the govt indirectly.
Can't you accept a common one man as our head to obey the norms of our culture.
Ofcourse he will have many assistants in different positions under different administration.
@@arputhamchokkalingam3549
Namaskaram
When you have crores of rupees involved as hundi collections, obviously the government will have a role to play.
The government appointee shall have powers only to check the Balance Sheet. Whether the receipts and payments are in order
All other matters regarding temple management shall lie with the trustee. If any development work is to be done, the majority trustee shall inform the government appointee, who shall blindly release the funds. He shall have no role to play
Do lawyers and judges understand about Sanatan Dharma they don't so why they are giving judgement after judgement anti Sanatan Dharma
As if you understand it, Sanatana Dharma in itself a other name of vedic religion which with name change trying to be the center of Hinduism
Same happened with shabarimala verdict
Declare Bharat as Sanatan Rashtr or else free temples 😮😮😮😮
BHĀRATA.
Both should be done
Interesting discussion and I credit Rahul Dewan for intelligent questions. Mr. Anand Prasad gave some intelligent answers but injected Quantum theory and Kaliyuga and few others. First Hindu is not a religion, the word Hindu derived from Sindu, the Indus Valley Civilisation. Persian called us Hindu, from them Arabs and Greeks learned. Hindu is used for someone born in the region. Hindu became a religion only after Muslims invaded India and called native Indians as Hindus. Until then Vedic Brahamins identified themselves as Vedic people. I am glad he discussed about Charuvakas, who challenged the Vedic Brahmins, and also believed in physical world. When Vedic Aryans came to India just after 3000 years old IVC withered due to climatic change. To discriminate the native brown Indians, they called them Shudras and imposed 4 varna system. From this time onwards, Indian society is suffering discrimination till today. Mr. Anand Prasad did not take into account these issues. What is Kaliyuga? Homosapiens existed on this earth less than 200,000 years, and if you add up thetraya, Dwapara and Kaliyuga exceeds 16.5 lakh years. We did not have writing system 3000 years ago, until Assyrians introduced it. Mr. Anand Prasad did not say, how old were the Sanskrit Vedas, when they were composed, do we have any physical documents in existence? If he think Brahmins are Dharmic people, he is wrong. Aryan Brahmins were the racists from day one, and no one trust their Sanskrit texts and their bogus philosophy. 2500 years ago Buddha rejected and bring Charuvaka physical world of One Life. Buddhism flourished for 1000 years, developed Gandhara silpa, Astranomy, Ayurveda, started Taxasila University, promote agriculture. Ashoka time Dhamma Lipi was introduced, and people’s language Pali became the State language. It was all destroyed by Pushyamitra Shunga, a Brahmin to bring back Vedic culture. That was beginning of the downfall of Indian society, subsequently we fell for Muslim and European invaders. Like all societies, Indus people believed in God out of fear to protect their families from death. They did not worship Vedic Gods, instead they worshipped village Goddess like Yellamma, Pochamma in Telugu country. Mr. Anand Prasad wanted legitimize the Brahmin Gods and Mansmrutii by cleverly injecting additional dimensions to the physical world. In other societies also have God concept with one exception, that is there was no 3500 year old racial discrimination unlike in India. Modern science has already proved the Sanskrit language belong to Indo-European language family and it is not native to India. Ancient dna is also proving there is no traces of Aryan blood in Indus Valley people skeletons. I wish, Anand Prasad took these into his consideration. At the end I want to add one more point, who brought the Sanskrit to South India!
Bokas appu bro😂 looking like a postmortem specialist! Yellamma, Maissamma are tribal way of Shakta traditions which are there from beginning. Being Telugu guy I can debunk all your fake propaganda by stating hard evidence. Your fed with left+western+islamic historians & linguistic experts😂 Comgressi of Telugu Raajyam🤣 btw why are upper caste Reddys getting converted as Christian Aryans bratha? Is it because of native brown indigenous brahmins who originated from Tamilnaadu? Moron
Jai Shri Ram 🙏🏻
Free temples!
If courts are not experts in religion, why can't they seek the help of experts to pass judgment. Same in a case of murder case, they seek the help of experts, like doctors, forensics, etc.
Make a podcast on how WAQF BOARD formed
Hinduism is Sanathan Dharma or Indian culture s mix of vedic culture and Dravidian culture worshipped nature in ancient times by adivasi the local people feared national calamity like fire, flood, lightening there was no solution at that time, bhakthi by devotees is due to fear they worshipped as Devsthas. At that time the administration of that place by the local community by their nattukoottam and its most elder became moopan . The land belongs to their paradeavtha belongs yo all. The trade between the nearer places started prople settled from nearby places the ruled changed to nadu vashi called janmi the paradevatha called mother as devatha and it called Kavu and the land called as Devaswam land and ots rulers were dravidian culture. In eighth century the Pallava kings invited the vedic brahmins they started the temples of Eswara (tne soul or jeevathma ) and Devathas (all living creatures)thrimoorthi devathas are Brshma (srushti) , Vishnu (sthithi), and Msheswara( samharam) the three stages of life. Since the rulers adopted family rule in with inefficient people as the ruler was the most senior in family their adminstration were poor. In 1921 the then British Government made HR & CE to protect temples and its properties, after creation of states they changed HR & CE act into State Devasvam boards without any changes its terms and conditions but its members are the nominies of ruling political parties for w period of two and a half period they are only interested in temples in incomes not to protect hindu culture or to take welfare activities for hindu community.
There's nothing called Dravida Culture- V Hindus are ALL HINDUS ! EDUCATE YOURSELF INSTEAD OF BREAKING us up!!
Discussion needs to be on point of constitution and state control of temples.
Please notify the second part
Secularism is supposed to mean state not picking sides and being neutral. Active suppression of the religion of the majority community, and active support of the minorities in the name of tolerance, isn’t by stretch of imagination considered secularism. But this is exactly what secularism has come to mean in India. Grassroots movements is the only answer, the bureaucrats and judges will never be able to solve this problem.
And what secularism really meant back then was that that Church would not tell the Kings what type of Christianity to follow. But it all revolved around Christianity.
The concept of secularism was diluted in British India and planted by Indira Gandhi in India's constitution during emergency and all Hindus are paying a heavy price for that. Undoing this is going to take a lot of pain. Unlearning the meaning of secularism taught by Nehruvian Congress is an uphill battle.
Afraid that lawyers tend to be intimative given the complex nature of the "imported" profession + the nature of issues in 🇮🇳
Democracy is the best solution.
Each Place of Worship. Temple, Mosque, Church, etc., must be managed by the Devotees who worship in it.
So Societies should be formed for each Place of Worship.
Any person who visits and worships should have the right to become a member of the society, for 1 year.
So unless the person visits and worships at least once a year their membership will end after 1 year.
There would be no concept of Life Memberships.
So only regular Devotees will be members and not casual visitors.
The Fixed Assets, i.e., Land, Buildings, Jewelry, Bank Deposits, etc., of the Place of Worship can be held by a Trust and right to sell these should be restricted. Say, it would require 2/3rd Majority of the General Body to sell any asset worth more than 10% of the Gross Fixed Assets, etc.
This type of democratic solution will make all Places of Worship accountable to the Devotees and enable reform.
Cannot agree with the membership thing
There has to be a board of members 10 all comprising dept heads - accounts auditors lawyers chefs, chief priest, religious classes on martial arts, Vedic food , Sanskrit classes, complaints. of There has to good governance on the temple services - everything accounted for. The temple is a pillar of knowledge for the religious arm. The head quarters for all temples must be in Delhi. There must be monitoring schedules for all services offered in the temple premises.
Food must be given from 12-1 and 7-8
, complaint s
Excellent conversation it would be great to have J Sai Deepak also in the next conversation.
There’s one aspect re Karma that I would differ. Every situation that one meets is a result of past karma of vyashti (individual) and samashti (the world) - the samashti being the expanding circle around the individual- the family, society, country,… and so on And
Every act done will have a consequence (karma phala) again at vyashti and samashti levels.
The bigger the act (eg flying planes into WTC) or higher the position of the person doing the act, (eg SC judge vs an ordinary magistrate) greater the consequences.
So the present situation with the judges is the consequence of hindus in tamas - not alert and vigilant and who blindly trusted the govt. What to do in the present?
Saying their karma will come to bite them is an abrogation of duty.
Non-action is also a karma with its subsequent karmaphala.
Iam vaidika Brahmin for me two constitution One is God made And other one is Man made both we are with great respect following I feel man made rulers needs to fine tune..
Entry into a judges chamber are sitting on their seats,CM or Governor or Presidents chair is not permitted.Why? What is the sanctity.Every place has a restriction imposed by the society should be recognised.But the courts are blind to this facts.
Namaskaram
Sir I am Hindu. I say it 💯 wheather i follow my ancestors way or i believe on sampiradayas or culture or only devotion or only Bhakthi, my way has to have a name.
Without a name how will i be recognised by my neighbours, or my relatives or by the society.
I have to have a name for myself.
So goes with my faith which is given a name wheather by western, southern northern or eastern . Why my given name is having so much havoc and undergoing so many debates.
As my faith grows and deep i may reach somewhere beyond this earth.
But my fundamental name can't be taken out , if that's so , how will my generation will know or find my footsteps.
I have to have a name. My name is Hindu.
The name given by outsiders which has been heavily marketed to be largely accepted & digested because of modern phenomena of largely recognized. You didn't recognized yourself on your own terms & didn't bothered to register & announced it loudly and no PR. But yeah there are many names for sure
Many Nick* names & pet names for sure
20.11
Modi has a dual view / thinking personality when it comes to Hindus . VHP President called him a Ghazni while as CM of Gujrat as he indulged in Temple demolition . BJP govt in Karnataka demolished one thousand two hundred Temples out of six thousand identified right down to Panchayat level .Seventy percent of people killed or injured after Godhra riots were Hindus . Twenty three thousand out of twenty seven thousand arrested were Hindus . Every financial assistance was provided to Muslims . As PM Temple demolition continued in Varanasi, Ujjain , Ayodhya despite the that these could be relocated ( took an easier way , less expenditure) . Temples that were two hundred years old and beyond siting flimsy reasons to cast aspersions on Hindus in the process . The character of a Pilgrimage place changed to Tourism city . ( तीर्थ स्थल और तीर्थ यात्रा को सैलानियों का अड्डा बन दिया ) . The very essence has been obliterated to be forgotten by generations to come . The path of dredging of Ram Setu has been opened for subsequent governments. National Green Tribunal seek tree replantation . He / BJP talks of freeing Temples but goes on to control Temples in Uttarakhand ( subsequently withdrew the bill ) and now Yogi’s UP ( six temples besides Ram Temple ) . Modi had to withdraw Antiquities Bill 2017 that would permit TRADING in Hindu Heritage Artifacts. Also had to withdraw, Live Stock and Live Stock ( Exportation and Importation Bill 2023 ) . Refuse to bring back Saraswati Idol ( मूर्ति) from Britain despite their willingness to do so . All the Idols / Artifacts) brought back are the efforts of an NRI NGO , Bring Our Gods Home . What he and Mohan Bhagwat has spoken adds to their Hindu hypocrisy. These are just a few examples. Jai Hind
".Hindu is a way of life " but why such ways of life , whats fundamental principle or belief ??
1.karma 2. Rebirths 3. Past lives 4. Bodies are carriers of Atman , that lives in all living bodies equally (animals/plants ).that's like temples where lives sacred immortal ATMAN ( that may be essential part of parmatma According to adweta darshan , or separate from dweta principle But it's Supreme) so as long Atman is in bodies it's also sacred as it's home of Supreme).
There's body that's very sacred where lives our atman, that also lives in all living beings . As our bodies /bodies of all living must be taken extremely care of . That's home of our Atman. That's the basis of respect for bodies and physical ahinsa. Otherwise ppl will carelessly not only go for death and kill anyone believing rebirth.
All good (rightful) /bad or unconcerned division only come from Karma .
Rightful is Dharma, bad one is vidharma and unconcerned are adharma
I want to know why youtubers use all their vocabulary before asking the experts to do the rest.Fed up with all these channels. Except Vijay Sardana...
In your talk here I don't think Islam agrees that we don't understand everything. It states all knowledge is contained within itself. Please don't assure yourself of such thoughts.
Well, whatever the context and the history of present Indian, constitution, law and courts are, I think viewers are more interested in seeking a remedy for the unjust control and basic looting of their temples by the government. I really don't understand why the philosophy of quantum physics is being discussed here. I think the temples we are talking about are the ones we can see infront of us and go to physically touch and not some wave function. I think hindus waste time by complicating straight forward issues. Just give us our effing temples back. The argument begins and ends there.
The very popular justification is if the state handover temples to the priests or the community, the untouchability & discrimination prevails & take a rise again citing metaphysical aspects. And the example here they're trying to cite is Shabarimala Ayyappa temples where women weren't allowed stating the metaphysical aspects.
So it seems to be like the state is negotiating to allow the state to do reforms in social aspects when there is a need without getting into metaphysical aspects of it for handing back our Temples and not even providing any vision of Template/format how the state is going to handover in a systemic organised way. But I doubt the state would interfere in the religous aspects within the temples practices and they're portraying as if they're heading us towards Hindu State. This is lost case scenario for Hindus. We may get back the control, but the process of reforms take a fast pace and lead to the loss of the essence of metaphysical aspects of it. Irony is they're avoiding to interfere is the social aspects of other religous places in form of reforms and trying to bluff Hindus by saying they're balancing & trying. This is only exclusive for Hindus as usual!
@gouniraghuvamshigoud The Ayyappa Temple belongs to a particular denomination which has its own practices and to which open entry to all is not a part of that tradition. It isn't an open house, free for all entry. Same as my house, I decide who comes to my dos and not the local or state authority. When we are clear on this matter, that, yes, there is a form of eligibility for entry to this site then the state has no say on this at all. It was not the Hindu women who raised this issue but muslim or commu is leftist woke women who would never want to go anyway who took this up. In terms if metaphysics, it does not affect the spiritual elevation of women. There are plenty other temples to Ayyappa they can visit. Courts can have no say on their practices as it was built by a particular community to serve their purposes only and not a general place of worship built by the Indian government.
I know man but the state is saying it will enter your home to fix the the order by reforming your rules when you don't allow everyone for party and then leave it for you to party..
Practicing hindu should pray and go. He doesn't have administrative expertise to manage temples.Handing over temple to non govermental organizations or commitees will erase local worshipping traditions and customs in long go. It will only promote brahminical influence, sanskirtization and hinditva into all states
Free temples and save our money from congress giving to Haj yatras and Pakistan brothers
Wow!!. This guest has the ability to talk for an hour without saying one specific thing. Another boring self styled expert without a thesis.
Tell the guest to clear which Islamic and Christian principles have been challenged and the courts themselves have been made on the principles of Christianity so it is ok …. go to Afghanistan and sharia is legitimate so in India why should in India court of law not be based on our societal principal of sanatana ……. The guest requires clarity in his thinking and disassociate from his personal biases while giving a discourse on a subject …. The guest has shallowness in divinity and the principle of being detached and giving a discourse ….. has to work on his mental wellness
If state does not control ...then upper class will have Monopoly ....
How is that possible.upper caste would conquer by force??...There should be a committee by which the funding should be managed for the welfare of hindus community only.And member of that committee should be chosen from the each caste from the hindu society.People like you do not understand the whole concept and directly jump to the wail of upper caste and lowercaste.
Why do we take this for granted? Should it be about class or competence? If it is about competence and capacity why should class matter?
Do we put these same questions to Christian or Muslim clerics?
Their capacity to run their institutions is defined not by class but by their knowledge and understanding of scripture and theology. This is what we should be aiming for in Hinduism as well ..
@@user-my9kj6gq5v exactly!!!...we hindus have animosity towards each other for the sake of class.that is why muslim leaders like owisi shouts jai bhim despite knowing that even muslims have class division as shia,sunni,dawodi bohra,ahmadiyas as so on.
This is how the state justifies control...this is how the British justified their rule...the natives are not fit to rule themselves
So you are challenging the basic structure of the world that is based on intelligence!!
This hierarchy is based on intelligence, which results to wealth!
Reply me why aren't you in place of Ambanis?