Lauren Zuniga's "Personhood"
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- čas přidán 27. 08. 2024
- Lauren Zuniga, is a nationally touring poet, teaching artist, writer on Write Bloody Press, and activist. She is currently ranked in the top 5 female poets, from the 2012 Women of the World Poetry Slam. Here, as "featured" poet at NYCUrbana, she performs "Personhood" at the Bowery Poetry Club. 4/12
I come back and watch her videos all the time. This girl >
sigh always the comments section. Look people it is nobody's divine right to decide on a one size fits all mentality to life, all things are circumstantial, all things have different outcomes, and in the end the only person who can truly know what the best course of action is is the person in that situation. And I say person, not fetus, because a fetus is not a person yet, a person is something we become as we grow with the world. Most pro-life activist's will talk about the rights of the fetus, or that they love babies, but in reality they turn a blind eye to the rights of children already here, leave alone what is starved of love or even of food or a roof over their heads, because they do not want to give rights to the unborn, they want to take away the rights of a woman because they don't care what her circumstances are, They don't care if her womb is an unstable place for a fetus, they don't care if her partner will beat her half to death because he is not ready to be a father, they don't care if she is a 15 year old girl forced upon by someone she once trusted. In their eyes, if it isn't what they think then the rest of the world has to bend to fit it anyway, and the only way to do that is to take away the choice.
Powerfull
BoxFaery that was absolutely true and well spoken. Thank you
This is so beautiful, I'm crying right now.
I got literal chills while watching this video. Very moving.
She never fails to leave me speechless. There is power and truth in each word she speaks. Deff one of the best poets of our time.
Strong words. She's..she's really something.
All i could think of halfway through is CLASSY-BAD ASSi got that feeling when you are super inspired by something and your eyes mist up a bit...mainly bc she's spot-on in her angst and exquisitely eloquent in the creation and delivery of the presentation. this is the kind of poetry that will spawn more and more speech. and no doubt she will inspire more art is some way! B R A V A, ms zuniga
Every time I watch this, when the video ends, I realize I've been holding my breath for 3 minutes and 50 seconds.
Quite possibly the most flawless pro-choice argument I've ever heard.
New lesson learned: From now on I won't ever, ever fucking look at the comment section. Just for the sake of my sanity. I think I'm going to throw up if I read one more "stop murdering babies, life begins at the act of fertilisation" or "there are too many abortions" and shit. I just can't stand it anymore. No more comment sections on slam poetry videos.
PS:
This woman is incredibly inspiring and amazing. I strive to have her strength, intelligence and mere awesomeness.
“When we consider that women are treated as property it is degrading to women that we should treat our children as property to be disposed of as we see fit.”
― Elizabeth Cady Stanton
You are aware the Ms. Stanton was pro-choice, correct?
Juan Jeffrey She was pro-life.
Not quite. She fought for women's reproductive rights, that includes abortions and access to birth control. Being pro-choice isn't about saying everyone needs an abortion, it's about people having the right to choose what they do with their bodies.
I was pro life a a kid because I was raised conservative and religious. I spent a long time in an eating disorder treatment center as a teen and it changed my mind completely. I'd judged it based on my experiences, which were limited, and ignored the variety of experiences people can have. A woman told the story of her abortion and the abuse, her perspective of the world as so terrible she was protecting her baby from it, the lose lose corner she was backed into, each thing was something I'd never considered. I realized that I can't decide what a person should do in reaction to situations I've never been in and would never want to be in.
The hypocrisy of being "pro life" while also anti gun control, anti welfare, anti food stamps, cruel towards child refugees, etc is infuriating. Care about those issues, then you're pro life.
I come from the foster system.. It is severely stretched and children are overly medicated and some even face abuse. I am also a female to male transgender. I fear daily that my rights will not matter and I will be yet another statistic in murder/hate crimes against my percentage.. I digress, however. Everyone always goes to the "adoption" part instead of abortion but those wombs you speak of are not breeding grounds for you. Those women aren't breeding mules. If you do not have a uterus then who do you think you are? Demanding your views on those who may not have any other option. If you do have a uterus then who do you think you are? Pushing your views on someone else's body. You may not agree with abortion but that is your opinion, you do not have the right to dictate what others do to their own bodies. I would rather a woman get a safe, educated experience rather than some "home remedy" abortion that could threaten her life. If a woman is informed she may just keep the fetus. If a woman is informed she might not keep it. But that decision is not yours. When it is your body, you do with what you see fit. When it isn't your body, butt out of it. It's just that simple.
100% i love this womans mind!!!
She is absolutely amazing
"You are a person...but you will never need to pass a bill to prove it". Woah. Exactly it there.
Fan-bloody-tastic!
She's saying that as a person we should each have the right to our bodies and that we should take care of the already living instead of worrying about what could be.
I don't want to start an argument, but - as respectfully as I can - I'd like to ask anyone that is pro-life if they've ever actually and verbally stood up for the rights of child soldiers. If they have ever spoken against modern-day slavery like they have against abortion. It seems to me that people are willing to argue that unborn lives are as important as those of people who have been born. And they'll fight and yell for the rights of the unborn. But they'll still eat chocolate that was made - in part - by child slaves. They'll still buy and wear clothes that were made in sweatshops. They'll justify putting children out on the streets because of who they love. They'll argue that the right to own a gun is more important than taking measures to prevent school shootings. It seems to me that if they really saw all life as being equal, we'd see people screaming at other people for buying Hershey's, not just for going into an abortion clinic.
What is an unborn life? And what diffrences do u speak of? When do you think life begins? Well life begins at conception where the embryo has all the necessary Dna it needs to grow throughout its entire lifetime. At the very end of the first trimester, it has been implanted in the uterus. If u had a miscarriage in your second trimester, it would literally look like a minescule baby, if that's what your going by. If your setting the peramiters towards when it's actually born it's a child there's a couple reasons that makes no sense. A) third trimester abortions are illegal and the mother is likely to die along with the baby. B) When it's born it will yet to have any self awareness untill 4 months and yet to have any established awareness untill around 3. Now there are ppl who argue a 3 year old is not a person (Peter singer) but I would like to know your opinion on personhood
+maria44688 The prolifers don't see it from a rational point of view. They see it from the religious point of view which is void of kindness. It's a pity.
There is always hope. The right to be born alive should not depend on weather he or she is wanted or not.
Exactly, no one has the power to decide when the sanctity of life starts, so therefore, women should be able to make decisions themselves free of those thoughts.
There sure are a lot of dudes on here arguing about what a woman should do with her body. Probably a lot of the same people who cry about how unfair it is that men have to pay child support.
Our primary concern is not the pregnant woman but first and foremost the unborn human who is at the greatest risk of losing its life.
Since the woman already enjoys the right not to be murdered we are advocating for the unborn human who does not enjoys such rights.
Your concern for people who do not exist or who might exist but only at the expense of another person says more about how little you think of women than how concerned you are for human life. If you were actually concerned about human lives you would be more concerned about the lives of women and not blastocysts. The arguments against abortion are more about men who want to dictate what women do with their bodies than saving babies.
Juan Jeffrey So i assume you do not consider an unborn human a person. Why?
Because it's not. I understand that having an abortion is a moral decision, I also understand that it is not mine to make for another person.
Juan Jeffrey What then gives a human personhood and a right not to be killed?
What I mean for the stages of development is the physical stages stop developing at death. It is only the beginning as you step into eternity.
I meant "the next best thing" in terms of removing responsibility for the child from the unwanting parent; I should have clarified that. You are completely right though, and I don't know how I forgot to mention what you said about the failings and corruption of the adoption system. In fact, one reason I fear having a kid is because I'd hate to, for some reason, have to give it up for adoption. The thought process, dark though it is, is "Better to never exist than to suffer the ills of mankind."
damn im crying... and i dont cry.
"The question on my mind after reading about this was if children dream from the moment that they are born, might they dream before that time? Scientists now know that they begin to sleep at as early as 4 weeks of gestation. REM sleep waves have been found at as early as 28 weeks of gestation, and REM sleep waves accompanied by the eye movements of dreams by 30 weeks of gestation. Which concludes that infants begin to dream 2 or 3 months before they are even born!"
I got that from...
And I thank you as well.
The problem I have with the pro-life movement is that the value of life seems to attached to the fetus and not to the person they will become. If every life is equally valuable then why is health care not universally guaranteed in every country? Most pro-life legislators shame abortion yet they do nothing, or little, for the children born to bad homes because their parents' couldn't have an abortion. Once that fetus is born, they pull their hands away and shame the single mothers that can't feed their child: 'why would you have them if you can't care for them?'
Value the fetus and not the child seems to be the message. That once you are born there is no reason to care for you.
A lot of pro-life people cite religion or experience as the main motivation for banning abortion. It is perfectly fine to use religion to define your choices to have a child. But to use to to tell another women that she must have a child is religious oppression not expression. As for personal experience, generalizing your own experience to all other people is absurd. Not every person reacts the same way to something.
LOVE THIS.
Yes,I'm a woman.
I'm straight. I'm not a person of color but I'm mixed. Irish,German,Cherokee,Italian,Scottish and since I was born in America I'm American.
Powerful.
"Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it."
*melts* I love you
Part of the reason we don't always use abortion in our arguments for "pro-choice" is because the minute we do, we're accosted saying that we're only getting pregnant, then getting abortions. That we do it in such a casual manner as though nothing really matters. That's the problem, is that once we make a defense, we're immediately made the victim. I would never want someone to go through getting an abortion, but I also wouldn't want them to have no choice in the matter.
expressions. At five or six months he is as sensitive to touch as a newborn. From the 24th week on he hears all the time -- listening to the noises in his mother's body, and to voices, music, etc. Between 28 to 34 weeks his brain's neural circuits are as advanced as a newborn's and the cerebral cortex is mature enough to support consciousness; a few weeks later brain waves, including those of REM dreams, become distinct. Thus, throughout the third trimester he is equipped with most of the...
I'm wrong, at 12 weeks and embryo is about 2.13 inches and 0.81 ounces, so more like a plum.
Vacuum aspiration - Also used after a miscarriage involves dilating the cervix and creating a vacuum to empty the contents of the uterus.
Dilation and curettage - The scraping of the inside of the uterus. Quite dangerous, only done early in the pregnancy and recommended only if the other methods are not available.
Medical Abortion - Occurs before 9 weeks, is a medication that can induce abortion.
*Chills*
2 cell stage, 4 cell stage, 8 cell stage, morula, blastula, and then the gastrula which has 3 layers the Ectoderm, Mesoderm, and Endoderm. it is literally a hollow ball of cells.
And each layer becomes different parts of the body. It is only after all the cells have formed (so after the first trimester (which is incidentally when most miscarriages occur) that an embryo becomes a fetus and the fetus can be considered a baby. aka achieving personhood.
THAT WAS LEGEN-wait for it - DARY!!!!
The minute we started saying who is considered a person and who isn't, that's when all of society was put in danger. For now infants are starting to be considered "non persons". Who is next to be called a "non person"?
As previously mentioned, this is where most miscarriages happen. Most women do know they're pregnant before they miscarry, some women know 5-7 weeks into the pregnancy, so about 2 months in.
The embryo is a fully functioning fetus at 9 weeks but at the same time it is inside the uterus of a person who has the right to do whatever they please to their own body.
It is only in that uterus because it is allowed to be there, and the fetus is leeching off of the person it is inside.
My great grandma and her husband lived in Italy before coming to America. If the would have stayed in their homeland and had grandma and her sister there they may have had to go to a camp. Now look at how many lives would have been lost because someone would have thought they had no right to life.
But the person who is giving birth has already lived, give the child a chance to open his eyes, to see the light of day to experience all the wonderful things the world has to offer, yea it is not going to be perfect but it will be something.
in different ways. And they just happen to come across that part of their bodies. Their bodies are new to them and they want to explore the different parts they have. It's all new to them. Thumb sucking,kicking,grabbing toes. And as they explore they just happen to find that they have one more part of them to check out.
Making abortion illegal does not acknowledge that we don't have the power to decide whether a fetus's life is worth anything, because it decides most definitely that that life is worth something: it is worth more than the personal freedom of the woman who is carrying it.
I am saying that no lawmakers should get to make that decision over the women who have to carry the baby. Making abortion illegal is giving them the power.
Exactly right. "Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it."
When we decide one group of people aren't persons than none of us are safe.
And that is because people go through different stages throughout their entire lives. Death is the final stage for development on earth. And yet stepping into eternity only starts a new stage.
It won't help in the long run for the rape victim if she aborts. It'll only cause more pain.
Me too. The fact that kids are abused at all in the system makes me want to scream, "The adoption system IS NOT better than abortion - kids can hurt physically and emotionally for the rest of their lives, a fetus with no brain will never know suffering" when people say, "Just give it up for adoption" as if thats a guarantee of a good life, as if the system isnt flooded with needy kids already. Ever notice the people who say "just give it up for adoption" never have adopted kids themselves?
Deliberately targeting innocent persons for destruction should be illegal ---->
Unborn children are persons ---- >
Deliberately targeting unborn children for destruction should be illegal.
he doesn't need to struggle to 'prove' his 'personhood' in the way the people she mentions do. To have a bill passed to 'prove' you are a 'person' and deserve the rights 'personhood' entails would be also to admit that at some point you was seen as less than one...or are still seen thus. So in that sense she is answering her grandfather by stating to him that he possibly really doesn't have a clue what he is talking about, after she has pointed out the flaws of using the 'pro-life' label.
Adoption is an alternative to parenthood. Abortion is an alternative to pregnancy. Some women do not want to be pregnant, or they just can't afford to be.
"Adoption is the next best thing" - You must not have any idea how overcrowded and abusive the adoption system is. I've known quite a few adopted/foster kids and not one of them was mentally ok. They're all suffering something be it Reactive Attatchment Disorder, rape, molestation, physical or emotional abuse and more often than not its the adults they're adopted out to/fostered with that hurt these kids. A lot of the kids run away/become homeless because thats actually a safer life for them.
Can you provide a different source please? I found that website when I searched for it but my comp keeps telling me its an unsafe website with viruses and shit.
I did read on other sites about whether fetuses dream or not. The scientific consensus seems to be that fetuses' eyes mimic REMs but said nothing of REM sleep waves being found. Also, there are documented cases of both male and female fetuses that SEEM to be masturbating. So either you think they're doing it consciously or its a reflex.
No one can be potentially a person. From conception to death are when we are persons.
Conception is when all the DNA needed for that person is set in.
Naomi Wolf admitted "But we are also in danger of losing something more important than votes; we stand in jeopardy of losing what can only be called our souls. Clinging to a rhetoric about abortion in which there is no life and no death, we entangle our beliefs in a series of self-delusions, fibs and evasions....
Just because the fetus is unwanted doesn't justify the act of abortion.
What is the difference between the three month old fetus,three month old baby and the 20 or 30 something year old woman? The difference is the stage of life each person is at. Just because there's a significant difference between life stages doesn't justify the act. If the stage of development determines when personhood begins than which stage does it truely begin? For the stages of development don't end until death.
I would say yes, the answer to that question is very ambiguous. It's a philosophical question with no one correct answer. That is why abortion should remain completely legal, because that way, each person can act in accordance to their own philosophical beliefs: those who think abortion is wrong don't get one and those who don't believe the fetus is a baby can get one if they want.
As long as what they are doing does not affect any other living person (eg. rape, assault etc.) then yes.
The mother and child are equal.
Since,you admitted it doesn't matter if the unborn are persons I have a question.
If they are persons and get aborted wouldn't that be considered murder? If not how do you label the death of the unborn by abortion? Would you label it a natural death or a death brought by murder?
Well...the line you referred to - the 'pass a bill' one - is said with a strong sense of irony. Remember: for the most part she is speaking to her 'pro-life' grandfather as well as to the senators who makes their various arguments against legalized abortion. What she means there is that as a white (also heterosexual) and possibly well-off adult male - and therefore privileged in a way many others aren't, he doesn't need to struggle for his "personhood" [cont.d in next comment]
Sperm and ovums have DNA saying they can only be a sperm or ovum. At conception the hair color,eye color,etc.. are determined of an individual.
Ok,let me rephrase my question. "Can you explain when the unborn cross the line from possible person to actual person?"
Okay, I can respect that point of view. I guess it's just that I consider it more risky to sacrifice women's control over their own bodies than the risk you're talking about.
And we risk becoming precisely what our critics charge us with being: callous, selfish and casually destructive men and women who share a cheapened view of human life.
I still maintain that we need to contextualize the fight to defend abortion rights within a moral framework that admits that the death of a fetus is a real death; that there are degrees of culpability, judgement and responsibility involved in the decision to abort a pregnancy..."
Now if she can admit the fetus has a death than..
It's not selfish it's real. They could also be severely disabled, a serial killer, or a drug addict. How about we give the people already existing a chance. you know education, food, shelter, health care. "They introduce themselves as pro-life. And I say, ‘Oh, I’m so glad. You must be fighting for health care for the poor.’ And they look at me like I’m bonkers." - Sheila Walsh, a Catholic nun
Exactly! If someone's survival depended on my body, I legally don't have to give them jack sh^t. :)
Sorry about removing that comment you already replied to. I got it mixed up with something else.
There's a distinction between fetuses and babies? How is there a distinction when you can have a 6 month fetus in the womb and a 6 month baby outside the womb? What's the difference?
"Dreaming shows they are people."
Dogs seem to dream (they have all the physical aspects - REM, body twitches, quivers, ect). Dogs are not people tho. Lots of other animals seem to dream too, they're not people tho.
So according to Dougherty, shes saying exactly what I said in a previous reply to you - fetuses have BASIC REFLEXES. Brain dead people have light sensitivity, REM and other reflexes too. Why? Because they, like fetuses, have a working brain stem which is responsible for reflexes.
it obviously was not a "potential person".
Now please tell me when you think the line is crossed from potential person to actual person.
actually i don't think it's too accurate to say the baby is "feeding off" the mother lol only because the woman's body, as soon as it knows its pregnant, immediately prepares a place for it to get nutrients and be protected- the embryonic sac. So, really the mother's body does nothing but naturally cater to the baby. but of course there are other instances where someone just can't carry one for whatever reason.
So was Wendy Davis and Nancy Polosi wrong for saying late term abortion is sacred ground?
Why would they regret their choice?
It's a potential life? Not according to a book I have. The book I have says that the unborn are a life like the mother.
This is still up for debate in the medical/psychological communities as to when a fetus or baby develops self-awareness but I strongly disbelieve that a fetus' brain has anything close to the self-awareness needed to be considered a person, not just a human. Why is simply having a brain your standard for ability to suffer? Should we not kill ants? They actually have several brains, so you think they can suffer more than a fetus?
I dont think a fetus is a person anymore than a tadpole is a frog.
I know this will make me sound stupid, but i don't care because I want to know and curiosity shouldn't be denied for the sake of pride. Which side is arguing for? She seems prochoice for most of it, but the 'you dont need a legislation for you to be a person' line sounded like pro life to me a little bit. can someone explain a little further?
Why do Pro-Lifers insist on forcing their beliefs on people who do not share them in anyway shape or form whatsoever?
How late in the pregnancy? Because I know for certain they feel by the fourth or fifth month.
What is the alternative than, death? How is death better than atleast having a chance? A live dog is better than a dead lion.
And what about in the case that the parents want the child but through out that child's life [and even past childhood] most people made her feel unwanted and eventually less than a person? Would it still be ok to get rid of that child because she was still unwanted?...
My great grandma only had 2 kids. And my great aunt never had children,only my grandma did. If grandma would have been aborted that would have wiped out that family line.
I'm curious. When do you think abortion should not be done,up to what month? Also,when do you think the unborn become persons? What causes them to go from "a blob of tissue" to being a person?
I think you told me the answer to the 2nd one but I think you only said what month,not what week. Can you scientifically show me?
Why would you think unborn fetuses dream? Where did you get that idea?
Link please?
Does anyone remember another pro-choice poem by a black woman? I couldn’t remember either of these women’s names, but finally found Lauren’s. They both used to appear when I searched pro-choice slam poem, but I believe CZcams censored them in the search results.
The fetus (although it inhabits the uterus) should have no say in what the pregnant person does with the fetus inside the uterus because said owner of uterus has the right to body autonomy.
Actually the distinction between the fetus and the baby is pretty, well, distinct. Actually, it is not even about fetuses. More about zygotes. It is not about them either. About the autonomy of the woman. Woman should have a choice in what she experiences. She can choose to abort or not, but it is her decision. She is a person, and it is her right. If the thought of abortions make you feel bad, teach people how to use contraceptives. Spread that shit around. They'll appreciate you.
I'm supper pro life Soo I like most of what you stand for good poatry!
"If you don't like guns don't buy one".
That solves that solution about guns. We can keep our guns and if people don't like them than don't go out and buy them.
Sounds simple,right?
Can't we all agree to that?
And no this isn't an off topic post,it is related to abortion.
aH ♡
there is no situation that occurs in America today where the mother would die due to a pregnancy as long as she is medically cared for.
of "There is so many more important things you could be doing that would be more Pro-life than fighting for a child that might not even survive it's birth."
Than that means it's ok to give up on every premature baby. Because every premie might not survive birth.
the cold metal. So, whenever they touched me with the metal piece I'd move to get away. Mom said they acted like it was some kind of a game. Touch me with the stethoscope and every time watch me move on the ultrasound.
Why?
So,do women have the right to do 100% whatever they want with their own bodies or are there restrictions?
I believe they use a local anesthetic with vacuum aspiration
I feel Anti-choice is more of an appropriate term, rather than "pro-life".
That would be like saying in the past "If you don't want a slave,don't own one."
So,it doesn't matter if the unborn are persons? Than should it be ok to kill a newborn or handicapped person? I mean since we should be allowed to kill the unborn even if they're persons than that proves we should be allowed to kill any person. I mean you did admit it doesn't matter if it is a person.
Than why fight for premature babies since they might not survive? If we take that mindset...
Actually,I'm certain they can feel.
Why can't life be precious 100% of the time? What I'm hearing is, "Once the republicans take life seriously, then I'LL take life seriously".
there is no situation that occurs in America today where the mother would be at risk of death due to pregnancy.
I just want to sneak in here to say that I am pro-life, but I agree with 90% of what she said. Most people are so hypocritical, wanting an unborn child to have more freedom than, say, an "illegal" immigrant just because "they didn't earn it," as if anyone who just happened to be born here earned it. I respect women's freedoms and rights, but also the unborn child's, and I also do not ignore the rights of non-citizens or anyone else she mentioned. If you value one life, you should value them all.
Than do you admit Wendy Davis and the people she was with was wrong?
Women don't even know they're pregnant yet at those stages you mentioned.
Ok,so does the fetus achieve personhood once the 2nd semester begins?
But being pro-life is taking the personhood away from women who, by not having the right to an abortion, have less personhood than a corpse. Because if a person requests that their organs not be used for medical purposes, the organs won't be used, no matter how many lives it may save. Shouldn't a woman have the right to body autonomy just as much as a corpse?
But that is just your opinion. What if the unborn really are persons?
A child's brain begins to form only five weeks after conception. Yet, "a fetus with no brain will never no suffering?"