Baseball ISN'T Unfair - The Dodgers Are Just Smarter, Don't Blame The Owners
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- čas přidán 25. 07. 2024
- Baseball ISN'T Unfair - The Dodgers Are Just Smarter, Don't Blame The Owners
#mlb #baseball #sports
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I’m a Pirates fan. You’re right. Bob Nutting has done nothing to make Pittsburgh more than just a small market. He wants his revenue share, and then he dips. But that’s not on the Dodgers and large market teams
I like the pirates, they are like just competent enough to tease you. But yeah I'd probably be pissed a few of the teams could have won if they spent a little more
Love the pirates too. And this is an interesting.
bruh its not the market, it's the owners
The Pirates were fine until O'Neil got hurt.
smart market teams dont deserve their teams
Rays, Dodgers, and Braves are straight up scary teams with or without money.
Arguably Mariners with their pitching development and they’re getting better at trades
Yeah
Mariners trying to stay relevant
I mean they had 3 winning seasons in a row
Astros as well.
@@georgerogers1166 With help from 🗑🗑🗑
See, this here is a smart fan of baseball this is true. It wasn't always this way. It had to build up to what it was, and that's where those teams are at today
Dodgers are legally cheating
I’m pretty sure that Snell, Bellinger, Montgomery, Soler, JD, and a couple others are all Scott Boras clients. Boras slowed down the offseason and asks for 50% more than what his guys are worth
Scott “Bores us”
theres nothing special or important about greedy people like boras. fact is how much money players make dont make them great or matter.
I also think that Scott Boras is another major factor on why guys are not signed
@@hectorcastle1187 that’s not even up for question. He talks to teams, sees their offer and then tells them to add 50% or they won’t sign
I know the dodgers avoid Scott boras clients like the plague because he’ll mess up negotiations or get overly greedy
As a Dodgers fan, I empathize with fans of teams with poor management. I lived through both the Fox group, and McCourt ownership. We drew 3 million+ per year and had tons of fan support in spite of having to watch ownership make horrible decision after horrible decision and cut payroll at every turn. Yeah, the Dodgers might have only won one World Series while on this run, but I dont take any of it for granted and I wish more teams were run the same way. The fans deserve it.
They haven’t won a championship since 1988. They lose every year in the playoffs like the Cowboys.
2020 dont really count bro. Be serious
And they're perennial October collapsers. No one wants that
Your team had the same chances to win in 2020. And they failed. @@NoNameWillBeGiven-ii5hu
yes it does bruh u a casual lmao@@NoNameWillBeGiven-ii5hu
A bit of a rant but a number of things. Every other fanbase can say the Dodgers are ruining baseball but it was Ohtani’s idea for the massive deferments that he pitched to everyone he met with. The Giants were prepared to match them but he picked LA. The Mets matched Yamamoto’s 325 million but he picked LA. Teoscar Hernandez turned down multi year offers for the Dodgers. Glasnow had some say over him getting traded and wanted to pitch for his hometown team. Nobody is stopping other teams from signing guys because they’re getting outbid. The Dodgers are winning everyone over in other ways. And before anyone argues this was done out desperation because the Diamondbacks swept them, both Ohtani and Yamamoto were being scouted by the Dodgers for years. Last offseason didn’t have a lot of spending for this reason. The cost just end up being 1 billion plus
exactly. all their big free agent acquisitions last offseason were 1-year deals. kershaw, jd martinez, noah, peralta, heyward on a minor league deal. while letting trea turner walk and choosing not to sign rodon, degrom, verlander, swanson, bogaerts, correa
Couldn’t have said it better
ohtani was never going to sf. the city cleaning itself up for the chinese dictator is stupid as fuck. could have offered ohtani a trillion dollars and he wouldnt go to shitty teams. its insane he went to the angles if he liked the west coast so much. ohtani would have been a multi time champion if he had started his career with the dodgers, the only team in la. anaheim isnt los angeles and never will be
You're completely forgetting that not every team/owner has the type of money like dodgers, in fact not even close
@@nomercyinc6783 from my recollection the major reason why he didn’t sign with LA following 2017 was because of the lack of the universal DH at the time. He was insistent on wanting to hit and pitch whereas the Dodgers wanted him to either pitch or play the outfield. Justin Turner personally thought that meeting was a waste of time because of his insistence on being a two way player, saying it should’ve eliminated 15 teams right off the bat.
btw ppl who are upset at LA this offseason should remember that last year their biggest offseason signings were kershaw and noah (lmfao)
they prepared for this offseason
Exactly
People still want to say Arizona made them spend big this off season when all of this has been planned for years now 😂😂😂
that Noah signing was elite
@@franciscoverjan7397 yes. they chose not to re-sign seager, trea turner and scherzer and chose to pass on guys like correa, rendon, kris bryant, rodon, degrom, bogaerts, swanson to save funds for ohtani and yamamoto
@@rawkusrex elite at serving home runs while crying about giving up his hypothetical first born son to be the old version of himself
I've been a Dodgers fan since 1965. I endured the Fox years, the McCourt years. I rejoiced when McCourt sold the team to The Guggenheim Baseball Group. These guys came in with a plan, and they've stuck to the plan. I'm a happy fan. Even without championships galore, I get to watch a winning team every season.
God what a empty feeling you display
The irony is, the O malleys were cheaper than the two you mentioned.
I stopped following the Dodgers when they got rid of Mike Piazza, and by sheer coincidence started following them again when they brought Yasiel Puig in. Perfect timing.
This was the most unbiased, intelligent take I have ever heard regarding baseball. Without a doubt!
Both Shohei Otani and Yoshinobu Yamamoto thought the Giants, whose home base is San Francisco, would never go to San Francisco, which allowed the installation of a statue of a comfort woman, an anti-Japanese symbol
The Dodgers lineup is stronger than the chairs in Dr. Nowzaradan's office.
oh snaps
LOL
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
Over 15 minutes of facts. Very Very well said. The dodgers also has prepared for this off season for a couple years now. It was know secret now they are MLBs most hated.
No, go and actually win a championship then you can earn that title
@@nomercyinc6783 did YOU even care when the Angels signed him?
I mean it just makes sense that the Dodgers have one of the greatest farming systems in baseball history. They’ve been doing that since Branch Rickey and they’ve pumped out so many amazing players.
Scott Boras is also a consistent variable in these non-signings.
Yep
they were interested and submitted formal offers for fellow boras clients harper, cole, seager and scherzer. they got outbid for each of them.
fuck greedy scott boras. the league would be better off without him
He’s a prick, the owners are all pricks. And it’s the fans and players getting screwed as usual.
Great video. Had me dying of laughter a few times. Spot on takes about the Sox and Yoshi / Montgomery
Boras thinks that Shohei's $700m sets a precedent that he can use to calculate what all of his players are worth. "Snell is worth 50% of Shohei, so $350m plz". "Belli is worth 42% of Shohei so $294m thx"
Boras has to calculate how much money these clients of his brings to their owners also in off the field revenues, coverage, global sales, fame…😂
Not even that but doesn't he get a certain % of that as well.
Snell doesn’t bring in anywhere close to shohei merch sales etc ….
You guys only focus on performance 😂😂😂
It’s a business
I’m part of the initiated 22% #Subscribed as far as the spending is concerned I’m a New Yorker and a Yankee fan so I can’t complain about spending!
Don't forget about Scott Boras. He's the agent for at least half of these guys. He sets the asking price above what teams are willing to pay, and essentially has his guys hold out until the middle of spring training. The only Boras agent who has signed was Altuve, but every knew he was gonna be an Astro for life.
Boras is the agent to over 2 dozen MLB players and he keeps adding more players to represent every year over the past several years! He is greedy, though!!
Im a Giants fan and i totally agree.
No you dont
No you dont
No you dont
In depth look at all sides, different perspectives, looking at things from baseball logic,
This is the type of video of why we all came to know and love your work. Excellent production on this one.
It's refreshing to hear someone not shitting on the Dodgers for signing Ohtani and Yamamoto. People have to start looking at things realistically.
Yeah WS or bust
@@NoNameWillBeGiven-ii5hu pretty much. That should be the mentality
I love this take. I am a Dodgers fan and have been sayin this to everyone who roles their eyes when asking who my team in. Glad someone who isnt a dodgers fan sees it
i have dodger friends who always get berated when we talk baseball... and all i need to say to the guys who berate them is, "would you have the same opinion if it was your team that did that?". that usually shuts them up really fast
They should be laughing considering the Dodgers' October track record
@@rawkusrexsounds about made up
@@NoNameWillBeGiven-ii5hu thats fine... im not here to convince you
@@NoNameWillBeGiven-ii5hu which is why they spent 1 billion dollars on pitching alone... is it making sense to you now?
Spot on and honest analysis!
This is going be a fun Baseball season this year will be and i hope the Dbacks does good like that last year
Great content, great breakdown.
Haters will hate even more when they find out that their committed payroll will still decrease each year
2024- 313 million
2025- 201 million
2026- 172 million
2027- 173 million
2028- 121 million
2029 & 2030- 122 million
So yes if this doesn’t work this year they’ll just reset and try again. The thing is they’re trying. So we love our ownership for always trying
Dodgers have a nice fat TV deal and a fan base that shows up win or lose.
I've been to several different stadiums, and by far, Dodgers games at Chavez revine are more exciting.
No you haven't. You're all talk
Not true at all
Not so exciting to opposing fans who gotta watch their backs
Since the NL West was formed in 1969, the Dodgers have finished in last place once, I believe it was 1992, so they really haven't experienced the losing part. lol
@@CrackpotSports bet ya they were still in the top 5 in attendance that year.
Do we actually have information on how profitable MLB teams are? Like with revunue gained, payroll spent on players, coaches, management, ballpark staff, stadium upkeep, etc.
While I understand your point what do you want the redsox to do. With a terrible pitching staff to improve. We tried the build slow and sustained success but it hasn’t worked for 5 years.
Continue building your farm up and get some better scouts. Y'all have a decent system as it is, but it needs work.
I’m so happy to be a Dodgers fan we make every player great I don’t get why everyone thinks we don’t make home grown talent lol thank you great video
THANK YOU! I'm a Pirates fan and I swear I don't know how many times I have heard about how we need to go out and sign a first baseman, a right fielder, a 2nd baseman, starting pitchers... we have so much talent in our organization, just let the kids play. And when they can prove that they can play good ball... sign them to long term deals. The largest free agent contract that Atlanta has ever given out was $75mil over 5 years. They're perennial contenders. That's what Pittsburgh needs to do to compete. Smart trading, drafting and developing and then sign your own guys.
Excellent video. I agree. As much as I despise the Dodgers, i have to admit that they are very smart with how they run their organization. They are the best run organizations in baseball and in all sports in general and you gotta admire that.
Great vid man as always
You're a real one italk
I felt like I was on an island! I am not alone. Damn I love this channel
really good video, changed my perspective on why the red sox are being cheap
As a Mets fan I can say that money doesn’t necessarily buy success 💀
Someone called me a dumbass for this reasoning last week. 😭
I’ve been saying this!!! Glad to see this video put together. Keep on the great projects you’ve been putting out there.
Nice takes🔥
Reminder that the payroll of this year’s Dodgers is nowhere near the payroll of the 2023 Mets.
7:22 You forgot to mention Tyler Anderson, who was told by his former teams he'd be publicly executed for being the worst pitcher in history. Dodgers really out here saving guys.
In all seriousness, great video.
the dodgers been the best regular season team with the best regular season coach the last decade. those stats are literally right there for anyone to see. team record over that time isnt affected by opinion
And they've done nothing with it. I've hated the dodgers forever but even I feel some sympathy after last year. They really have to make it happen this year, their season starts in the playoffs.
Too bad the regular season isn’t what really matters.
Hey, I'll take being there and having a chance to win... then being out of the playoffs. They should have more than one though...but hopefully more is on the way.
never said it did. its just a fact nobody can argue. roberts has the best record of any manager over the last decade as well. the dodgers last year should not have won 100 games with all their injuries. hating the dodgers without giving a reason never makes sense. hating the dodgers because they are in cali is rather stupid@@breesybird9207
It’s funny that the Dodgers are going to get all their money back cuz everyone will keep traveling down from Japan not only to see Shohei, but also Yamamoto. I am one sad Giants Fan
I'm new to baseball as an Australian. However, from my perspective it makes much more sense for struggling teams to sign good, solid players in the minor leagues that have huge potential but won't cost a fortune. In pitching, if they signed a great starter, they're looking at paying huge sums of money for at most 35 or so starts out of 160. Even if they pitch well for 6 innings every game and play every game, that isn't going to get them into the post season. They are much better off finding a range of players with excellent potential and building them up over a few seasons (like the Orioles did). Just my thought anyway.
You don't sign players in minor leagues in baseball, they are already signed on Minor league contract.
In baseball you can sign only international prospects, but let's say Dodgers can't sign Yankees youngsters. They can trade for them.
Players are signed after a draft.
Glad to see you are becoming a fan of baseball. It s a fantastic and complex sport.Yes it is importantant to build a good farm system. To do that you need to hire an excellent scouting department . Most teams are to cheap to invest in that kind od stuff. Once you have a good core built then don't downplay the importance of pitching. There is a saying in baseball that good pitching beats good hitting everytime. That is especially important in the playoff and world series. I've been a Dodger fan for 45 years. The past 10 years have been the most consistant and exciting teams I have ever seen. They do all the right things. If you don't have a team yet get on board with the Dodgers!
And that's, even if not this specifically, is what the dodgers are doing and why they are successful. They identify prospects and draft them or trade for them and use their honestly just superior training to make them into very good players.They know what makes someone a potential good player and look out for it and they know that they have the training staff, philosophy and environment for them to prosper.
And then they get some play out of them AND THEN they trade them away for a new prospect!
It's really smart, their roster development is above anyone else and it's how they got to be the team that is of course the logical choice for Ohtani to choose even if he got the same offer from other teams. And he'll prosper there because they have this incredible player development team.
another iTalk banger🔥🔥
I’m a dodger fan and damn am I excited for the season
Another good take!
i 100% agree with everything in this video but i think 1.)Boras is trying 2get the best deal for his clients and 2.)the reason the players and the PA are mad specifically is because teams are now going all in or tanking and no in between.its like if a team doesn't think they have a shot at the WS, if they are not a top 10 team they just sutomatically hit the tank button and it's mostly looked at as saving money more than actually trying to build up.BUT who's right? Idk
you nailed it... boom
Good One !
Ive been a dodger fan since day one and come from a long line of Dodger fans in my family. I use to get made fun of for being a Dodger fan during the McCourt era. They were horrible. Not only horrible but there was no hope in sight. I still loved that team through thick and thin. When they got kershaw and slowly started to build, little, by little, i mean the smallest baby steps! It was so amazing to watch. People think the dodgers got rich owners and then got good. Yeah there was money involved when the new owners came in, but it was smart people running the ship. People dont even know Yordan Alverez came from the dodger farm, Aroldis Chapman! So many great players came from the dodgers system
Preach!!
Keep in mind Boston’s farm system is decent and coming around with Marcelo Mayer, Blaze Jordan, etc.
I feel like I'm watching the MLB channel with how much shilling for the dodgers is going on 😂
I'm not angry at Moreno for not spending money. I'm angry because he has made stupid decisions. He's given big money for too long contracts that have not been wise. He never spends on pitching. He doesn't develop a good farm system. As you mentioned, money isn't everything.
As a new dodgers fan I cannot wait to see success as a baseball fan!
Aka a bandwagoner
I like that take. As a Giants fan, it’s very obvious to me that our rivals have built an A+ foundation of drafting developing trading and signing free agents. As much as I hate to admit it, they are definitely one of the smartest teams in baseball.
Like braves signing all young there just smart BIG BRAIN
I mean you need an Obscene amount of money too, alot of owners can't just give out biggest contract in sports history
They screwed Acuña and Albies with those underwhelming contracts 😂 they are smart 😂
As an Astros fan, our boring off-season has me excited to see how the Dodgers form with their new guys, I'll admit.
You're not a Astros fan you liar
Dodgers will have a short season and a full season championship this decade! 🎉
You are correct but there is more, like agent Boras!
GREAT video.
Red Sox fans want Monty because right now their no. 1 starter is Giolito. That won’t cut it in the AL East.
It's still dumb, though. Even signing Montgomery doesn't make the Red Sox anything more than a last place, 82 win team.
And Gio now is going to miss the entire year
Dodgers also have geography and stars going for them too.
But yes, this is mostly accurate.
Who let this guy cook ???
Solid points given!!!
The singing for Boston is more about for the future and not kill the younger pitchers but yea still same point
Baseball is a game that is almost impossible to have yr after your constancy, even with baseballs, greats of all time. Baseball is a roller coster up and down. I played pro this, and this game is flipping hard at this level. Period.
With the Rays mentioned in this video, would it be a great idea if some of the owners build their teams the Rays' way? It's saddening for fans of teams to see their (teams) end up being bottom tier year after year.
my Braves will be looking forward to the challenge. but my boys will focus more on the division first.
What have the Braves done to greatly improve their team over last year to ensure they won’t get knocked out in their first round themselves.
What do they plan to do different.
You forgot to mention the Agents behind the players Scott Boras check his impressive lists of athletes he reprsents
Even as a Giants fan, its hard not to respect the Dodgers and the way they run things. But at the same time I don't really envy them either....I mean, they haven't won a (real) World Series title since 1988. That's got to hurt. I am fortunate enough to have attended three Championship parades and I can tell you the feeling is just euphoric!
It was a real title and the Dodgers won 6 titles from 1955 to 1988 when the Giants had none until 2010, so it balanced out a bit.
the players opinions on how hard the world series was beats fans opinions. fact is there were fans in the playoffs and fans in the regular season dont mean shit in the world series. fact is the dodgers title is valid and everyone else opinions are whats invalid. both the nba and mlb in 2020 both said playing away from family and not being able to go around normally was harder than regular seasons. fans opinions- moot
@@nomercyinc6783 except in this run have the dodgers won another title? no. Also other fact the dodgers play very front loaded? yes. Were they one game way from competing against a team that had a regular season losing record? Also yes. So you have to throw this * next to it.
You dont respect them
@@jasonleetaiwanno it wasnt
Love your channel. Been watching your videos grow in quality and your narratives are getting better and better. Great job man
Thank you! I appreciate your kind words and support. Keep it up! We're only going up from here...
@@iTalkStudios Yes sir!! I really like these kind of channels, but yours is by far the most unbiased and most objective with all the teams. Cheers for higher number on 2024!
A+
Dodgers also took last free agency off to prepare for Ohtani, imagine if they went after Judge, deGrom/Verlander or resign Trea Turner.
It's hard to believe the Dodgers brought up Yasiel Puig over 10 years ago, immediately went on an historic winning clip (~54-13 as I recall), and have been the top MLB franchise since. To all the haters: the Dodgers have but one asterisk WS ring to show for their decade+ of greatness. If you're going o hate, hate the Houston Astrisks.
No surprise. Dodgers wanted Sho for a while. Didn't sign Seager and Turner.
Small market teams should thank the dodgers for the simple fact that they make those teams money through revenue sharing.
Plus, when teams like the dodgers go to those markets, all of a sudden, the stadium is sold out and prices sky rocket.
Fans:Our team sucks so you should play for us!
Players: Your team sucks so I don't want to play for you.
DUDE FINALLY SOMEONE HAS SOME SENSE!!! I'm so sick of everyone's bs and complaining whenever the Dodgers get a player or something. The owners actually care about the franchise!!!!!!?
Hahaha if they cant win in the postseason
LETS GO DODGERS
Yeah!!
hmmm he did read my comments haha
Eh. The Red Sox could have also spent to build a foundation.
If they threw big money on three guys; Yoshinobu Yamamoto, Jung-Hoo Lee, and Jordan Hicks, they would have added some talent in the roster, and added some foundational pieces.
Yeah, they may not make it in the playoffs in year one or two, but that would have given them a potential ace, a potential everyday CF, and one of the best relievers in the league, all are under 28 years old. They could also add there shorter deals for Jack Flaherty and Amed Rosario, and still have a free agent haul of players who are under 28. Players who could be your building blocks to attract the superstars moving forward.
They could have also thrown in shorter deals to other players to improve, or to turn into trade chips to add to your prospect pool if the season goes awry.
So no, the Red Sox has no excuse.
I had to take my auto like back. wtf do you mean don’t blame the owners?!
As a a dodgers idgaf lol tuff shit 😂😂
There is a very simple primary example of what happens when you bring one or even two ultra stars into a bad franchise… Angels.
#1 I blame the mlbpa and the agents. The CBA has always been negotiated to favor super stars over the vast majority of players. The PA has prioritized assuring the top players get massive contracts over their rank and file members and the competitive balance of the sport. MLB needs to move toward short contracts like the NBA and institute a stricter salary cap or more punitive luxury tax. Shorter contracts would allow smaller markets to take on more risk. A ten year contract that doesnt work out for smaller market team can lead to finacial hardships for team for more than a decade. Cheap owners are more than happy to let major market teams take all the risk and reap of the rewards for assuming huge payrolls witht he current revenue sharing model. The CBA has also incentivized owners to stash talent in the minor leagues for as long as possible assuring most players will be playing in there prime for minimum compensation.
Good points. But the dwindling fanboys who think Dodgers are all that don’t like reality. Mlb is becoming irrelevant. WS 2023 was a ratings disaster. Worst ratings in decades. Will mlb recover? Not at this rate. NFL is more appealing and it’s not real football.
So was everyone hating the rangers when they spent all that money?
This video didn't mention the other top spender whom everyone hates, the Yankees. I guess they are not doing well in recent years. There is also the Mets who are also top spenders.
Thank you for being the voice of sanity. I'm a bluejays fan up in Canada and the media here keeps giving the Jays crap for not giving Cody hundreds of millions of dollars. But these are the same people that think baseball is a video game. They keep calling the last two seasons epic failures. They think all you have to do is hire big names and you win. Ask San Diego and NYM's how that worked. Baseball is a cruel mistress and Everytime you think you figured her out she slaps you in the face. Like last year. It was the year of the underdog. These same fans that are bellowing for Bellinger are the first ones to attack when things aren't going to plan. They did it to Kikuchi 2yrs ago and Manoah last year. Insisting they be traded when they are worth their least.
Honestly part of the Angels just falls on terrible luck, they continuously try to sign top dollar free agents and almost none of them have worked out for one reason or another.
I really think they have a huge player development issue over there, they continuously have some of the worst pitching in the league and almost every hitter besides Trout and Ohtani regresses the second they sign with the Angels. Arte needs to look at the coaching staff and little closer and maybe replace a few guys to bolster their player development of a team that almost always looks pretty good on paper but is always a mess on the field
You guys got to sub to this man. 70% unsubscribed is an injustice lol
Shutup fanboy
Scott boras is actually the one spoiling vaseball. Will be interesting next year what he plans for that outfield guy who was traded to Yanks
Now we’re finally talking about the right things. Great video.
I think the red sox could absolutely be a winning team if they got a decent amount of pitching but like…. alright 😭
I'm Cubs fan so I'm kind of in between.
I disagree a little bit on the Red Sox… a big part of the reason this team isn’t competitive today is on them and the way they operate (which has won 2 of their last four chips, so gotta be careful talking this topic) they reset after the 2011 collapse (which happened because of them partly) and won in 2013; they reset after 2013 just to win again in 2018. They reset again in 2020. Those resets saw Jon Lester, Mookie Betts, Xander Bogaerts, John Lackey and others leave, big time competitive players that could keep the franchise relevant into today’s game; but that the way that has worked out for them
Risk of contracts isn’t the only risk. Teams risk NOT signing people and hoping the prospects turn out good and they find some diamonds in the rough. Well, news flash, not every team has the prospect luck that the Braves do. So while I get the point of, signing Yamamoto, Snell, and Montgomery is a risk, not signing them doesn’t mean you will be contending any sooner. In fact, it almost CERTAINLY pushes the window back further.
Salary cap, salary floor.
Basically the problem is when this was all created the only check is the Luxury Tax. This very rarely discourages the teams to go out there and spend a ton of money if they are known to do so. In this case the NFL set it up smartly having the salary caps which helps. Though there are all kinds of other factors such as cheap owners, people not panning out, and luck.
Its just the owners not wanting to spend the money genius. Its not that hard to figure out
@@NoNameWillBeGiven-ii5hu yeah thats the simple answer but there is more than just that. RSN dont pull in the same money they used to in many markets the Astros and Rockets alone lost 20 million dollars in just one year by taking over their RSN. But there would never be a salary cap as the owners would never vote for that (heck if it wasnt in the nfl today it wouldnt be there). But yes owners are cheap but owners dont have the same captial to spend unlike some so they have to play smart with their money.
@@Josh-ut4wv also trying to add a salary cap is what resulted in the 94 strike
Boras is the agent to over 2 dozen MLB players and he keeps adding more players to represent every year over the past several years! He is greedy, though!!
It’s funny too cause they will still be first round exits