What is Industrial Pop? | Tone Deaf with Daniel Graves
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- čas přidán 21. 07. 2024
- On this episode of Tone Deaf I'll be answering the burning question: What is industrial pop? I delve into the history of the industrial music genre, what I believe is the future of it and explain why all music is pop.
Editing and post production by Devin Schiro
VFX by Sam Pfannkuche
Special thanks to Sharon Kryonfive and Eric Gottesmann for their input and feedback on the creation of this video.
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To me all music is the art of feeling. If a song can make you feel in a way that you have to play it over and over
I’ve been in the other camp, where industrial is the song subject, the dystopian industrial aesthetic, vs the unusual assemblage of sound of a Moog and a silverware set falling down a flight of stairs being chased by an irate guy screaming in German. Sometimes, it’s both - as in Art of Noise. In that realm, some Depeche Mode falls into that Industrial Pop.
Spot on on the fashion.
That description made me want to hear something that actually sounds like that lmao
Man, I almost wanna title this video differently as you delve into so much more that all new aspiring artists should listen to your message
Wholeheartedly agree. I miss the diversity in sound and crowds that were "in the scene." One of best shows I saw was Lords of Acid in '97. There were metalheads and punks moshing while ravers, goths and rivetheads danced in the back. Genres didn't really matter as long as it sounded good.
I wish I saw them live at time
Last time music blew my fucking mind: When I listened to Heilung - Alfhadirhaiti, and then then I looked up the lyrics and listened again.
Life totally changed.
Visage- Fade to Grey was the first song that made me a music fan for life. There had been nothing like it before. All the genres I follow most stemmed from that.
When I got excited about music - 1984 The Art of Noise - Who's Afraid of the Art of Noise?
I still remember going to the record store to buy that album and eager to get home and throw it on the turntable. Still listen to all their albums today. Timeless to me.
As an upstart college dj from back in the day (that was not to be denied), it was my extreme pleasure to broadcast over the airwaves hour after hour of music that really pissed a lot of people off. I absolutely loved spinning the likes of performance poets Copernicus and Laurie Anderson, experimental bands like Fad Gadget and artists like Richard Strange and Glenn Branca. It was all so new and exciting. Really great times. The airwaves to the psonicsphere deserved all this and more. There was a reason why they called this music ALTERNATIVE. If it did not fit into the pre-defined broad categories of commercial bullshit, it was considered alternative. Even New Wave was somewhat caught up in the push and pull of commercialism. But I guarantee you they were not playing the likes of Soft Cell, The Cars, or Flock of Seagulls in grocery stores in the 80s. You also have to remember by 1982 Lennon had been murdered, Marley was dead, Skynyrd and southern rock were no more. All of that was behind us. But as much as I loved the 80s, I love even more being a survivor. You see I put the muse on hold. But I'm here now so look the fuck out. Peace out and rock on.
Right on! Love what you do. Just ordered Into the Black on vinyl!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
loved the video! please everyone who always comments "make more like 'a violent emotion'", watch this and let it sink in.
I did... and still is AVE my favorite AP album 😉
Yess sooo much yes! I loves this so much. An artist that actualy has a vision!
I thought that this was going to be an impossible argument. Daniel you've always managed to open my mind. Although I agree with you that most people would hate to think that this is even related in any way you managed to connect the dots and I appreciate the eye-opening experience of hearing your vision of how these things can be connected and see your music, all music in the new way.
That’s kinda what I enjoyed about VnV Nation Noire. It’s not the standard formula of intro verse chorus verse chorus bridge chorus etc. Its more poetry being sung (yes music is poetry but this isn’t that particular formulaic pattern). I agree the “scene” does need to branch out and do things differently and I am loving where you are going.
It's great that your covering these topics, as your one of the most unique artists I know. Rock-on buddy.
That's very kind of you to say! Thank you.
You’re such a genius, I’m so happy I got to see you play live a couple nights ago. You inspired me, maybe one day we can play a show together ❤
I found your music a month or so ago and love it. Really addicted to Blood spills not far from the wound, specifically Vapor is my obsession currently.
I've gotten the joy of seeing you perform eight times now in my life. I am wearing one of your sweatshirts as I am saying this. You're one of my favorite musicians and favorite artists keep moving forward and do exactly whatever you want to do
There are different Industrial genres and sounds that can appeal to different people.
I would say Industrial music started from the 80’s New Wave/Post Punk/Synth PoP stuff, bands like Throbbing Gristle, Skinny Puppy, Killing Joke, and early Ministry were very much from the Post Punk scene of Joy Division, Depeche Mode, The Smiths, and The Cure.
Then you had Nine Inch Nails combining that early Industrial sound with a Hard Rock and Alt Rock edge, with bands and acts like Filter, KidneyThieves, Powerman 5000, and Marilyn Manson would follow.
Ministry then went Metal which allowed bands like White Zombie, Fear Factory, Nailbomb, Pitchshifter, and later Rammstein, Static-X, and Dope to all follow.
Celldweller, Blue Stahli and Zardonic all mix Industrial with Rock and Drum & Base.
Then you have genres like Cybergoth, Industrial Dance, Electro Industial and Industrial PoP.
I would say the best example of Industrial PoP is Ayria with the song My Device.
Industrial music and Big Beat often collide and mesh together, stuff like The Prodigy and The Crystal Method did collaborations with Industrial acts.
As for me I kinda like some Industrial stuff but it’s got to have something else with it, like I like Filter and KidneyThieves kinda Industrial meets Grunge sound. I also kinda like Static-X’s brand of Industrial Metal.
Some Celldweller stuff I don’t mind, and some Ayria songs I don’t mind.
But what puts me off of Industrial acts is the Goth stuff, I’m not into the Goth aesthetic or style, it’s just not me.
1:46 you mean monte cazazza
3:00 they all did that
3:45 the mission was terminated in 1981 on June 23rd.
4:40 deviance is an inescapable faction of our social worlds.
5:02 skinny puppy are well known for bridging industrial experimentalism with dance music and ascribing a goth fashion sense to it. in current times, cEvin key refers to Skinny Puppy as progressive. In 1990 duck stated to newspapers that Skinny Puppy is not industrial as industrial as a word no longer is what it used to be [hmm]
5:34 yeah and Cosey was in Sylvester's video for I feel Mighty Fine and Something Came Over Me is their take on pop music. Sleazy designed for Hipgnosis. Gen and Cosey are on a cover of some larger music industry album cover making out in a shower.
5:43 that "industrial" scene.
5:55 the mean girls club/ish collective formed in this hierarchy of goth clubs keeps things down due with bullying. That's why the modern noteworthy groups [ho99o9; street sects; clipping.] are coming from so far outside the scene. Which has been kinda the history. There's a fun story about Reznor trying to get his down in it single played at his local goff club before it hit the streets. "But you're a local, we don't play locals" "this was mixed by adrian sherwood." "sorry, we don't play locals"
6:10 This happened a much longer time ago. Why do you think Goths were so widely accepted in the 21C but Punk Rockers have historically been unaccepted?
6:32 SPOTIFY; ALGORITHMS; SOCIAL NETWORKING making predictions /for us/ and taste makers deciding things /for us/. No one goes to a record store or reads a zine anymore. They aren't around.
7:21 like dropping bricks painted with the word "dada" on wealthy artists' feet, yes. Or playing just before two big bands and calling them out with a fantastic argument in video form.
7:24 Major Music Industry massaging ya'll.
7:35 Social Networking
7:51 that has a lot to do with money and marketing that makes power.
7:57 everyone is closed minded as no one is recognizing the goal is to understand that "information is a bank. we must rob that bank" - Decoder, 1981.
8:20 yes but Other Like Me and Your Own You Own.
8:23 we have discussed this before. Art Music is not Pop Music. Pop Music has a very specific definition in musicology.
8:36 Ok good you learned.
8:45 Incorrect. Industrial has no genre styling, it is conceptual. Anything can be industrial. Dismantled can be industrial, AP can be industrial, NIN can be industrial, TG, SPK... concepts of alienation, social commentary, information sharing, technology and dystopia. There is no set form or arrangement for Industrial Music. Rock and Pop is often in 4/4 and 3/4. Industrial can be atonal, in 22/16, polytonic, polyrhythmic, serial, folksy, popsy, whatever. But it has to be conceptually correct.
9:00 John Cage disagrees
10:22 they really don't if you expand your musical pallet.
10:29 cause rounds and garage punk and freestyle hiphop and prog and death metal are all analogous in form.
10:32 Timbre refers to a lot more than style or genre; it's tone colour. Your vocal approximation is something. Sounds more like affect than colour change.
11:39 you should maybe define pop music in these arguments since verse chorus verse systems go back a very long time... well before the music industry present. Which is when the term Pop Music came up. Shakespeare wrote some songs. Violent Femmes arranged a poem that was in song form. Are you trying to say that the European tradition of Verse/Chorus/Verse is the end all of music and the creation of pop music? That'd be some kinda folk.
11:54 Unfortunately.
12:02 aww vapid? ;-) No the argument you made that Pop Music was more noteworthy than Mozart's K454 was vapid.
12:30 You need to recognize that groups like skrewdriver exist and that the world can be very dark and there are really bad music scenes.
12:35 everybody does. It's in everything.
12:59 so it's Industrial Music in the American Totalitarian Capitalist model-- GOT IT. I'm sure the founders would love that. Yanno Monte did write some essays... one is with M Handelman and in Apocalypse Culture. Hooray Pop culture...
13:07 ok are we coming full-circle to some Processian Church ish now-- christ gotsta forgive satan huh.
13:24 Hip Hop Heads are probably doing it best now (Death Grips; clipping.; Ho99o9)
13:30 but. people under 30 are not following music like they did prior to 2010. and the establishment clearly has no want to change that as things are homogenized.
13:50 because it suited me.
14:05 Pop is short for Popular Music. we all are definitely not Pop Music. Our founder always said, "I am widely unknown."
GREAT VIDEO !
First gig ever went to at 12 got me into industrial music by accident
I went watching paradise lost and die krupps were the support band n blew me away led me onto loads of music sp wumpscut mlwttkk fsol etc ' i was always into electronic music like Depeche mode new order etc n the first tape i ever asked for a Christmas as a kid was ultravox so i guess it was destined to be ' id found the genre for me - i play in hardcore and metal bands now but i always bring that industrial element to the drums i play in those bands
First, The Garden of Earthly Delights on the back of video (and workplace) - quite interesting for musician. I love this painting from H.Bosch. :-) Second. First I heard the Into the Black and Violent Emotion I instantly remembered the Skinny Puppy as you mentioned in video. Then I was listening these albums for 10 times minimal. This music is different and very interesting mixture of aggressiveness with ever loved pop. One of the best works I've heard in years. Good luck - from Czech Republic/(middle Europe) !
I remember being 14 years old and writing an essay for grade school on Throbbing Gristle and what Industrial music meant in terms of a genre or "anti-genre" and then because it was a music appreciation class lol I went on to describe Skinny Puppy and either KMFDM or Ministry, I can remember. haha. For a kid it was a decent essay and the only one I enjoyed writing in school to say the least. I always had TKK, Twitch era Ministry and many others well into the early 00's ebm like Assemblage 23. Everyone thought I was into metal or "techno" though I think they meant House. lol.
You make a lot of really good point as per usual Daniel. From the beginning the idea was getting getting to a popular audience, freaking them out and converting them over to a wider conception of music. Style was to some degree irreverent. So if you go back and listen to a lot of records by collective around late 80s and early-mid 90s KMFDM or as you mention TKK as well, you get an album like UAIOE with Dub and Reggae, Metal and Punk...but the message was unified as much as the sound was disunified.
Also much like the Punk scene from which Goth and Industrial branched out of everyone was in a band or worked solo on art of some kind; I think this is still true and the DIY ethos carries on to an extent. I know that's the chief influence I had growing up on Industrial in the 90s. I saw no reason I couldn't grab and instrument with my friend(s) and make noise, we turned our crappy office computers into drum machines by sampling hits and editing together loops with windows sound recorder (lol) before discovering the usefulness of midi and software which a lot of House producers were using at the time. We'd record it to audio cassette and play it over us making a horrible atempo racket.
As we learned to play my close friend and I differed as I wanted to go out to clubs and I did have a lot of fun. Whereas he felt it was getting old hat and too homogenized; that a regular House night sometimes didn't differ too much from a Goth night. Funny but we were both right in our own way. Now in our 30s and short on events or shows, we are starting to see eye to eye and work on music again. We (collectively) need to get over the notion that being older and more experienced is a bad thing and we shouldn't make art and participate. Now more than ever we need art and artists of all kinds...we can make the best of a bad situation!
P.S. *Regarding the meaning of pop music* you are absolutely right and that's why it's often called the Pop-Rock idiom as opposed to the Jazz Idiom in the formal study of music. The use of this language in that context helps us tell the difference between prevalent rules of practice for example with rhythm in the Pop-Rock and Jazz idioms both of them are often syncopated, emphasizing what in Common Practice aka the Classical Idiom was predominately in the reverse; a 4/4 meter had the 1st and 3rd quarter notes emphasized. Additionally, Jazz contains rhythmic swing throughout its many genres and subgenres. Whereas Pop often favors consistency of tempo i.e. a rock drummer who speeds up or slowly down many annoy his band members, a drum machine is usually configured for a set tempo for a song as well. Also matters of notion for chords (harmony), common structures (binary, ternary) and other practices found across these meta-genres are why the term Idiom is used.
Industrial, Goth EBM and Punk, our roots in this scene, often follow the conventions of the Pop-Rock idiom. The way you know you are working in an idiom is that exceptions generally make the rule whereas a genre is much more narrow especially because it's more about classification for entertainment or journalistic purposes. Even what we call avant-garde music can become tomorrow's troupe. And if it does not rise to wide acceptance over time, that does not mean for example that composers like Claude Debussy, who purposefully broke rules or conventions in the "post-Romantic" period of Classical music, do not have an association with that idiom.
It is precisely in breaking rules that one shows their associations because of which rules they have broken. Thus Throbbing Gristle and many who came after, by rejecting some conventions of the Pop-Rock Idiom yet selectively including some of them at various times, show that the spirit of experimentation is often about about reaching out to a popular audience with an "unmusical" idea and making it a prominent point of tension. This is how the tritone interval, parallel octaves and dissonant dominant harmony which its use of chromatic and often heavily dissonant notes became acceptable and even favored to the point where the process of tension and release of 19th Century music was way more dissonant that pop-rock tuned ears find comfortable at times.
Bro you should've made this video, not me. You're way more knowledgable. 😂
@@ClosetoHumanMusic ahaha... That's very kind of you Daniel. I think your practical experience in the industry is super important too. Lately, I've been hitting the books to improve my music and found it very enjoyable going at my own pace and trying things out. IMHO there's some gold waiting to be mined for darker music looking back at some of the avant-garde composers and Jazz artists.
Thankfully it's a beautiful day in NY, I'm out of the city and preparing for a little hike. Have a great day!
Well said Daniel! I think your newer stuff is a breath of fresh air, and very amazing!
Just stumbled across the Tone Deaf series, and wanted to offer congratulations. Good stuff. I'd propose (not that anyone asked) that rock music has become a cultural backwater because it is rarely challenging and too often nostalgic. Just look at the Billboard charts. Compare those to British and American charts from 1981 or thereabouts. Thank you, and the others who aren't content to travel the same worn pathways. And especial thanks to those who follow your advice given in another of these videos to take your art seriously and behave professionally.
9:55 ...but where's our Britney hook, Daniel? ...I'm glad you sung a bit later on to complete the four 😂 I've always wanted to hear you cover Toxic though. I think you'd kill it. Anyway, really interesting video, thank you for doing it.
I don't care what u call it, your music is brilliant! With the exception of Close To Human, I love everything u have written. And even that album has a couple good songs. I appreciate your take on all of this. Thx for sharing!
Hell yeah me to.
Love this content, love to see more 💕
Great video! Thank you for it. I love how much easy you make to follow the clear and precise logic you're showing us 🎶
Really cool video with some interesting points made... (although you did make me think if I released any music at 7:45 in the video lol) 😉
This is such an interesting subject.
I'm a sorta original goff but it was much more fluid in the early days before it drifted into wafting round graveyards wearing five tons of lace and quoting execrable poetry. But even back then, I was constrained by my idea of "outsider" - if it was goff, punk, metal then great - but I refused some real gems because they didn't "fit."
I'm old now, put the eyeliner vat on hold years ago (you look at it one day, think can't-be-arsed and it's downhill from there.) But musically, my range has increased massively because I don't care any more and if a song/artist is good, it's good. We have such freedom to find great music these days, who cares what the label is? Although if we could keep the fact I like some stuff from k-pop (Taemin/Move. Is bloody awesome!) to ohrselves, that'd be good...
really interesting video! you put into words something that i’ve been thinking about but wasn’t sure how to express myself. pretty much every “alternative” scene is suffering from this kind of stagnation right now. i’d love to see a change
One artist creating his own genre or niche in music, blending trap and industrial, Ghostemane. He is making something new. Like it or not.
Edit: Even his fiance Poppy is pushing the musical boundaries.
Ghostemane is one of the best contemporary artists. Love the shit out of him.
oo, someone I hadn't heard before, I'm hooked! thanks for that!
I really like Poppy, I'll have to check him out, thanks!
There are artists who I would argue do a much more impressive job of blending industrial with hip-hop, such as Death Grips, Clipping and maybe some of Injury Reserve.
@@gigachad192 totally agree. Add Ho99o9 to that list as well.
I totally agree with what you've said and it took me quite some time to figure that out by myself. I feel kind of guilty that when I was younger I thought people listening to mainstream music are people not caring about music anyway and they just take what the radio gives to them. And I've also thought mainstream music is alway not deep enough for me, but in fact I was the person who disliked music just by genre. But then there was this moment, where like a switch was pushed and I dicovered so much great music out there I wouldn't herar before, because it was no alternative music. At this point my world got so much more colorful and interesting.
Thank you, Daniel! I enjoy listening to you (singing and talking too). You are so talented!
I loved the NIN mention and those notes you played 😉
Besides, I practise english listening, your english is so good and your shared reflections, gold 💎😍
Well-spoken and thought out.
You're exactly right. That's why when I listen to your music there are moments I'm like "oh my god I love what they did there! It's perfect!"
I know having that 'first time when I heard Skinny Puppy play' I'll never get that feeling again. However I do look forward to Aesthetic Perfection, Front line Assembly and System Syn. I'm happy I still love some music that's still bein made today.
The music you talk about may thrive from after World War 3? Chinese Industrial?
I agree with your observations about the "scene". I would raise a different question though. Like, has music reached its limitations as a medium that transgress people? Maybe, today's transgressive experiences lie within internet actioniosm, or experimenting with AI/augmented reality.. But certainly outside "making beats on a computer". Today's mainstream music successfully incorporated the technical methods of "industrial music". Everything from "cut-ups" to "shock tactics" . Globalisation of internet blurred the (sub)cultural differences, it seems to me, that one cannot really build a strong identity out of a music genre you listening to, or your fashion choices.
The fact that the term "industrial pop" in regards to what I'm doing or hyperpop in the world of 100gecs can cause people react viscerally, with both anger and confusion, demonstrates that music can still be transgressive. That doesn't mean other mediums can't achieve the same thing, tho!
Actually, good point. The kinds of music you mentioned, are truly more "offensive", than "conventionally offensive" alternative music.
When it comes to Counter Culture and Sub Cultures, that’s almost a thing of the past now.
In the 60’s you had Mods, Rockers, Surfers and Hippies.
In the 70’s you had Bikers, 70’s Glam Rockers, Punks, and Stoners
In the 80’s you had 80’s Goths, Metalheads, 80’s Hair Rockers, New Romantics, Hardcore Punks/Skinheads, and Break Dancers.
In the 90’s you had Ravers, 90’s Goths, Grunge kids, Riot Grrls, Ska Punks, Skate Punks, Gangster Rappers, and UK Madchester.
In the 00’s you had Juggalos, Emo’s, Cybergoths, Crunk Rappers, UK Chavs, Clubbers, and Nu-Metalers.
And in the 2010’s you’ve had Hipsters, Mumble/Soundcloud Rappers, MetalCore Kids, and E Girls.
I feel like the 2020’s is going to be a decade very similar to the 2010’s where the idea of music counter culture and music subculture is almost none existent.
Gaming has now become this huge thing with Generation Z and will probably become even bigger with Generation Alpha.
I don’t know where music can go in the 2020’s.
This was really well put, I love Industrial and most of its subgenres. When you talked about song structures, the first thing that came to mind was ealry Nitzer Ebb, when I first listened to it I was really confused, but then it started growing on me. I loved the video and I'd love to see more videos about Industrial music and scene!
. . . then that is a great song. The instruments used, or even the language doesn't matter. It's the feeling created that makes me put a song on repeat. Great video Daniel.😊
The music in the background is killing me lol
I think it is safe to say we all learned something here...
Wow. This is a like an essay but in video form. Very convincing and well-written.
I really think it's best to make music that YOU want to hear. Ultimately this will lead to your contentment as an artist.
Others are in music because they are chasing fame, money, etc.
Others are simply after the money. For those people music is a product to be packaged and sold to consumers. They're nothing but capitalists.
When I first started recording my own music in the late 80s I would struggle with trying to make it more palatable for the mainstream and it never really came out in a way I was happy with or wanted to be known for.
This was towards the end years of musicians striving to be signed by a major label and entering into the years where it's much much easier to produce our own music.
IMO Figure out what you are and be that. Fiercely.
Forget labels of any kind.... they will only restrain you.
Daniel, du bist der Inbegriff eines Künstlers. Bin wirklich froh, deine Musik und Person entdeckt zu haben auf dem Lordfest. Danke für deine Arbeit, bleib wie du bist - eine riesen Bereicherung!
Looking forward 2 this Stream..🎶🎶🎶🥳🖤
Preach! 👏❤️
the protest industrial sound has a lot of weight, tracks like "Nothing Stays" of Cyberaktif are very interesting.
Hey Daniel. I think you tried to discuss about a topic in 15 Minutes, you have to discuss hours about ;-). But to your questions: 1.: no, I dont think everything is Pop in some way. To me Pop music was always what a mainstream audience is willing to listen to. So a Pop song for me always is a Song appealing to a big audience. And that changes through the years by cultural Progression or other influences (politics, religion, education, etc.). I f.e. started to listen to Depeche Mode in the late 90ies (with about 17). I knew Songs like Personal Jesus or enjoy the silence from the Radio when I was a kid. But later I also got into the not so comercial stuff like the early Songs on 1983 Construction Time Again, hitting everything to create Sounds of everything (take Pipeline for an example). 2. At the same time i dug into metal and new metal with Acts like Korn, Slipknot, Linkin Park, Papa Roach etc. I never listened to old industrial Bands like Throbbing Gristle, but in the 2000's got into Bands like VNV Nation, your stuff, and other Bands (too many to count them). So to me a good song always gets you at first listening. You just feel a good song, it hooks in your thoughts or you feel special towards the lyrics. So a good song is a good song. But 3: I won't consider Aesthetic Perfection, Faderhead, VNV Nation, etc. or Korn, Slipknot, Ensiferum, etc. as Pop. The mainstream is nowadays into simple produced music. Everybody can be a Producer nowadays. You've got a computer- youre a Producer. Everyone copies everything. So, if thats what your point should be, youre right. There are nearly no New influences and uniqueness nowadays in music. Even Artists like mgk, jxdn etc. Sound so familiar to older stuff or at least you hear exactely what there influences are. But even with all technigue: how should we progress? What would be a really new Sound? what is breaking the boundries? Take Brokencyde as founders of crunkcore. They were way ahead of the current success of that Sound and are now irrelevant. Being ahead of your time to early Isn't good either. But I get your point. Whish you All the best for your Musical journey🤘👌
I agree with this. I've made Experimental/Noise Art for about a decade now with other artists, and it's such a niche genre pretty much nobody knows of us. It comes down to how you perceive the world around you, not how the world see you as a creator in music. If you love music, then make it for the sake of making music, not try and cater to them.
Every human being is a universe.
We are inlimited, and we are more than just a genre, sub-genre, style, tribe etc
My biggest issue is the actual term of what is industrial in the first place. The stuff I like most now a days is EBM. I'll loosely categorize it as industrial, but when I think about it, I can't get over the fact that what is modern doesn't feel like anything from Throbbing Gristle or anything I'd consider a purist form of industrial. Even Coil or Psychic TV feels more post-industrial to me (probably bad examples when you look at the scope of their catalogs, but I pick them as they're so close to the original industrial tag). I think you're making a point that you believe these labels aren't the real issue, which I agree with, but I still do find the topic of labeling an interesting one.
Obviously, industrial has had a lot of incarnations since it's inception, but it think the most useful way to frame my point of view is by using the original philosophy of the people who invented the genre. I don't particularly care that it's changed in the meantime, that's what art does! I just want people to have a bit of self awareness when it comes to understanding what they like and why they like it. Is it because of the music, or is it because of the packaging?
Your choice of word "incarnations" (when defining industrial) might just be the issue I always struggle with. At what point does a rebirth make it different from being an incremental evolution? Sticking to the IDEA is definitely a sane way of doing this. This was explicitly done with industrial, but that's a rarity. Just because it was written down, doesn't stop plenty of folks from their own revisionist views.
@@NormanLyon I feel you wholeheartedly. If we didn't still cling to this notion of "industrial" when talking about the current scene that bears little to no resemblance to the artists who created it, my whole argument here would be essentially worthless. It's precisely because a band like Aesthetic Perfection is considered industrial that we're having this conversation.
". . . Experimented heavily with surf rock" is the best quote I've heard all week!
I mean... it's true ain't it?!
So instead of saying I listen to rock music, should I just call it Pop for now on? Lol 😆 Gotta love that Pop rock. I like the candy too. You too Daniel, gotta love ya. 👍
Haha NO! You don't have to refer to everything as "pop" the idea is just to help people recognize that almost all our music is based on the same foundation because humans basically like the same things...
@@ClosetoHumanMusic well I'm Inhuman 😉
I think because of a lack of innovation the scene can't attract new audience and the artists that exist that push boundaries are not rooted in or rejected by the scene or don't change the formular enough to be interesting for other people.
I think the right music happening at the right time CAN attract a new audience. We just need the vision and the persistence to make it happen.
I wish you’d have elaborated on music choice being inherited. I disagree with that particular statement but I feel it’s based on not understanding where you were headed with it.
The point was: When you join a subculture, you typically adopt the music, clothing, dancing from those who came before you. You ASSIMILATE into your underground, your underground doesn't assimilate to you. That's why you see so much homogeny within scenes.
Q. Do you know what nu medal is??? There is a little older band I listen to called 40 below summer and the term nu medal is all of the you tube comments and I have no clue what it is.
When will people learn you can make something 100x heavier with electronics than normal live instruments
I got into two new albums today and I think I'm going to be obsessed with them for the next couple of weeks: 'Back to Industry' by Leaether Strip and 'Chemtrails Over The Country Club' by Lana Del Rey.
...so yeah, bring me all that industrial pop please!
I really enjoyed your thoughts and view. Music is the sound track to our lives and that magical thing that can take us back in time to memories good or bad. And pushing us forward. I am just a music lover. I guess I am one of those open minded people that if the music makes me feel I like. True joy in my life is finding new artist (to me ) and discovering all there sounds and journey! Thanks for sharing
I DUNNO
greetings for me your music is an art
Couldn't agree more! I have a new side project in the works and Industrialpop# by your definition fits it I think. I will have to start using it when it comes out. Music is a always evolving. Nostalgia can be a good influence but one shouldn't seek to emulate it, only to be inspired by it to create something new.
Absolutely agree!
Especially point#2
Even pre/durimg pandemic with so much awesome new music out its very disappointing to see clubs and DJs largely playing the same classic industrial songs and at best early 00's electro.
Shake it up..shake it up...!🖤 Great Video and one of the best Hook-Tutorials 😅
The first time I can remember being blown away by music was when I was about 13 and I heard Nine Inch Nails' "Terrible Lie." Changed my life and musical path completely.
My moment was hearing "Wish" for the first time at age 11!
Restricting yourself to one genre only cause you feel the need to be part of a certain subculture - you are not allowing yourself to enjoy music as an art form in general. Do i have preferences when it comes to music? Certainly! But that is never stopping me from listening to other genres and artists because if the music touches me - no matter if its the sound, the lyrics etc - i don't give a flying frag about what genre it belongs or how people might judge me cause of it. My heart and soul is my own and it needs its own kind of nourishment no one has a right to hold a judgement over.
Bjork of course , FKA Twigs and Arca. Fad gadget as an early precedent
Great analysis Daniel! Thanks for sharing. Industrial music allows you to do that, it inherintently mixed genres somehow with the "Industrial colors" The world and listeners are ready to it, and don't really care how it's called :)
you should watch the episode of Black Mirror with Miley Cyrus in it she plays a pop star and all of her music is a more popy version of Trent Reznor songs
That didnt sound like the animal song by nin it sounds like another some that has the same beats its called hayling-fckahuna
The thing you are 100% right is that the "Scene" is full of narrow minded - insert word you like -... Some Metalheads don't accept other Metalheads, because they listen to Pagan Metal and not to Death Metal and so on...
I started to listen to metal etc. with 12 or so, then there were Deine Lakain, which is electronic Musik, later Aggonoise etc and meanwhile you can add everything from Dupstep to Hardstyle (except noise and similar)...
The third music you played in that keyboard of sort? Which was?
Closer by Nine Inch Nails!
Bloody spot on!!!!! It's all getting cheeeeeeeesy! We can go to a shop, buy "the look", and walk into a club of others who have bought "the look". Not that edgy. After lockdown, I'm off to the shops lol..
Lol, I'd love to see a goth club that bans black clothing :)
Great video, Daniel!! Loved it!!
Hit me Daniel, 1 more time...
I agree I was 9 when punk hit in 1976. l like everything from ancient chant though classical to einsturzende neubauten autobahn.
I go to infest HRH punk/Viking + more 10 to 15 concerts a year. Music should challenge pre conceptions & open your heart no matter the language or culture.
Wow never thought of all music being pop very interesting. It makes perfect sense. Ever time I here The word pop I think of Britney spears back street boys and boy bands.
im yelling right now///
Counter culture had become the culture. The tradinal music now has become counter culture
Let's make industrial pop together ;-)
Bro what is this MIDI slap bass background loop
It's Gods & Gold! You can hear it at www.gettheblack.com
Indeed a lot of music can be Pop. POP, POP Pop Music .... I still associate music like a drug that marks your life and is imprinted on you according to your state of mind. The brain reacts when it hears what it likes. It is cerebral happiness. I really appreciate classical music, the vibration of instruments, the sound of a bow on the strings ... but I'm also crazy about metal, trash, hard, tribal. In short, it must make me vibrate from the inside. And when that happens .... it boosts me like when I listen to you.
"Industrial music needs to be more dangerous, challenge norms, experiment and bring meaning. It should recruit and reshape societies"
Me: I just think the music is neat. :-)
Jokes aside, none of this hits me. Maybe because I've never been identifying with any "scene", just listened to music I enjoy. So I actually do listen for the sound, not for any between-the-lines meta-narrative.
Not that I think what Daniel says is wrong, not at all. Just presenting a very different viewpoint of someone that do not go to concerts, don't see any reason to associate clothes with music, and don't hang around people just because they enjoy the same songs as I do.
Pop Will Eat Itsself
it's ok. pop is not a gender. pop is music and that is. there is a pop themes hard to listening, so the argument that the pop is for easy listening it's wrong. good video.
Well, being more socially open minded and less dangerous is two sides of a same coin. I mean, let's have mr. Boyd Rice for example. Or any european dark folk artist :) They toyed with fascist aesthetics which is commonly a no-no thing. So, when we got rid of this taboo themes, well, we eliminated the danger factor. I know that mister Rice ain't nazi, although i can't be sure about every edgy darkfolk guy singing about "good old europe". But that NON image is more about pretending to be a caricature nazi, rather then being it. That's transgression in itself. So yeah, why don't we pretend to be nihilistic (like early punks), homophobic and sexist (like every other goregrind band), nazi assholes for a moment. But let's do it in a artsy, meaningful way. Cause hey, none of that negative ideas went away :) They're still present and growing, changing and mutating. Danger factor is shocking. And shock tactics is what industrial music was all about. I would love to see a black gay couple dressed as SS officers french-kissing each other while distorted nazi march is played backwards. That'll be cool and somewhat dangerous. Imagine reaction of regular twitter user seeing this :)
im yelling
#IAMDANIELGRAVES When will you arrive in Moscow?
Homie we got a global pandemic going on! No one is going anywhere. 😂
@@ClosetoHumanMusic cool, I will dig a tunnel to your home :D
Also, reason 3 is a truth so many people need to grow up and understand. The sad thing is, the reason most metal heads hate on pop is so close minded and ridiculous. There are plenty of dark as fuck pop song out there. Metal, goth, rock, industrial, can all ve formulaic and gimmicky as hell too. It doeseny make it bad. This sort of juxtaposition is the righ way to think about producing new music. Honestly there's no words to describe how much I love Daniels thought process.
So I’ve been doing a deep dive into this genre because it’s so good…..then you start talking about throbbing gristle. I legit didn’t think anyone but my dad remembered them. Automatic sub
How can you know where you're going if you don't know where you started!? Thanks for watching! 🖤🖤🖤
Industrial pop could be0 the answer to bring darker harder music back into the spotlight. Don't get me wrong I love many styles and genres, but rap is starting to loose its sould at the moment and if rock isn't there to fill that void, counter culture as we know it may end.
Except that nothing is edgy because at this point, it's ALL been done before.
The fact that this pisses off industrial music fans kinda proves that I'm on the right track.
Counter culture is now trendy and pop seems to not want to evolve.
I disagree. I know this video is a year old and nobody will read this comment but whatever, my thoughts:
1. The push for genre bending and trying new things has invariably led to bands and DJs mixing the worst aspects of other genres with industrial and causing industrial to become diluted. It's a big part of why industrial club nights have gradually descended into becoming generic techno raves, where if the attendees weren't wearing black you'd never know it was supposed to be industrial at all. Being derivative and staying within the lanes of a genre isn't necessarily a bad thing - people go to industrial nights because they want to listen to industrial music. I don't want it to start getting mixed with trap or DnB, those are fine but exist in a different space. Gatekeeping can be healthy.
2. Calling out sexism, racism, etc is now not counterculture. It's no longer unique and interesting, and there's no longer a need for countercultures to give a home to the oppressed. When oil companies are funding pride events you know we're in a different world. It's normalised. Being tolerant of alternative lifestyles is the zeitgeist. So when songs are being made about how evil neo-nazis are it's stating the obvious and generally held view. You're not offending the boomers any more. It's tired and boring because everyone agrees with you. At this stage a song about not giving a shit about people's pronouns would be pushing the political envelope. Or in other words: Counterculture won, so it isn't countering anything any more.
I do agree on your style point though. People should DIY their shit instead of looking like they fell through the Cyberdog catalogue backwards.
Saying that "all music is pop" just bcs they share similar formula is kinda stupid. You won't say all tissues or cells in human body are the same just bcs they have similar structures. (skin is defenetly not the same as stomach and skeletal muscles are not the same as heart).
Ah, the "industrial pop" issue. I mean- industrial was always meant to be underground and even tho few artists went mainstream doesn't really mean the whole scene should go mainstream too. You do you, if you love to make music you make then go ahead. You can call your music however you want, but I'm affraid industrial scene will deny that industrial pop is industrial music.
*"You can call your music however you want, but I'm affraid industrial scene will deny that industrial pop is industrial music."*
Precisely why this is necessary.
The separation of "classical" from others is unbearable. There are select bands and genres (e.g. numetal) that use classical as a basis for their musical formula. If the "industrial" genre purpose is to "push the envelope", then wouldn't it make sense to "push the envelope" with exploring formulas from genres that are not typically paired?
Interesting. Can you give me some examples of songs based in classical song structure? Not like using classic scales or melodies, but their arrangement?
This right here is why I love Aesthetic Perfction. I deeply relate to this idea and concept, and while Daniel may not be the first, he sure is one of the best spearheads of this kind of thinking. By all means Daniel, destroy what is held sacred, eve if that means to destroy old goth tropes. Many of his talking points here are perfectly mocked in his song "The new black" I don't want stagnation and artists like Daniel are long overdue in this scene. THIS RiGHT HERE IS COUNTER CULTURE.
You are not wrong, but as most white north americans, you generalize immensely as to the constituency of ‘pop’ and the state of subcultures around the world. All artists whom you’ve cited are commercial artists signed to labels whose only goal is to market and popularize their artists. You view pop as production value, but miss the fact that it’s an industry because it can be commodified: the goal of pop music is to be produced, distributed and marketed to the largest possible audience to increase revenue. There is no ‘pop’ sensibilities because popular music is a varied as there are genres. Your example of ‘transgressive’ artists who are only copycats smeared in blood and singing into a voice box can be true in saturated market like North america or Canada, but are rarities in other non-English speaking cultures who are exploring the ‘industrial’ genre. Your comparison has more to do with rock-stardom cliches than actual music. I have seen and heard much more aggressive and musically interesting performances coming from conservatory musicians performing acid jazz than any extreme metal or Industrial bands. They will never be pop because their interest is not in selling records and gaining a following, but in the sonic exploration of possibilities. You are right that the spirit of industrial is not about enshrining a specific sound, the most interesting music occurs between genres and not within them, but I haven’t heard an industrial salsa or future dem bow album from you yet. The word ‘industrial’ means mass produced, commodified, utilitarian and dehumanized, lacking in organic elements. That is what I would define as pop music and musicians today. They’ve got records to sell. Other artists are more interested in exploring sound than being liked, as they know their music doesn’t have mass appeal. If you live off writing and performing music, you HAVE to be liked or your revenue will dry out. By all means continue to engage and produce, the market will regulate itsef and it’s more than likely that if you’re producing ANY style of music, someone out there will like it. Can we live off it? Perhaps no, but that wasn’t the point in the first place.
I certainly hear what you're saying, but at least give me credit for adding the caveat that my generalizations don't apply to experimental genres or techno or classical music. I would include acid jazz and jazz under that umbrella. The point is really about what most music listeners consider to be alternative, when it's by and large, pop music. Even at the most "extreme" practically all music sold in the west is based around the same kind of theory.
I don't agree that pop music only exists to sell records. At least not from the artist's point of view. Most of us feel like our job is to make music that resonates with people on an existential level. Yes, we want to make a living off our work so we can continue doing it, but if the creation isn't genuine it has no longevity and therefore no value. Art first. Money second.
What I'm really trying to drive home is that here in the west, genres are mostly a cultural invention, and have no real bearing on the techniques used to create.
@@ClosetoHumanMusic I give you credit for that condition regarding avant garde music, it cannot be adequately compared because it’s not ‘competing’ in the market of pop music. Regarding your comments about pop music not being made to sell... you do realize ‘pop’ is a diminutive of the word ‘popular’ right? Subjectively speaking, Rihanna’s Birthday Cake is just as genuine as Queen’s Bohemian Rhapsody, because beauty is in the eye and ear of the beholder. Longevity and influence are also too subjective and difficult to measure, and for what? Both those conditions are not requirements for music lovers. Don’t get me wrong, I like most of your music. I do think that what bothers some in the ‘alternative’ scene regarding your comments about ‘industrial pop’ is that most people consider pop vapid, stupid, superficial, mysoginist, chachi, cheesy, cliched, corny and prevalent. If you think ‘industrial’ became a joke of itself, would it make you happy to have Walmart or Safeway play your music in their establishments while you do some shopping? Because that’s where pop music plays.
@@ozlotstudio6438 This is where we simply do not agree. Pop music is popular because it is good. It is good on a songwriting level, a production level and mostly on an existential level. Of course there is vapid, soulless garbage in the pop music world, the same as there is vapid soulless garbage in the underground. You can cite Rihanna's "Birthday Cake" and I can cite practically any track by Alien Vampires or CENTHRON. At least Rihannas song has redeeming qualities like actual hooks and production.
I also strongly reject this market narrative you're pushing. If you want to make art for a living you have to sell it to people. Is there an artistic tension there? To be sure. Some people do try to make music simply to make money. But it's very hard to make money or have a long lasting career without creating honest, genuine work that resonates with people. Especially at the beginning. Bohemian Rhapsody is a pop song, but it is so successful precisely because it is such a magnificent piece of art, and will survive long beyond any of us because of that.
Boyd rice and britney spears doing a spilt ablum. Man that will be industrial pop. (disclaimer: I disspise boyd rice poltics and views. He's just deplorable edgelord nihilist)
Slim Whitman isn't pop
Dude, he so is.
@@ClosetoHumanMusic well he never seems very popular when I drop 'Indian love call' on a party :D