ARE ALL NON MUSLIMS GOING HELL? - ATHEIST & MUSLIM - SPEAKERS CORNER
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- čas přidán 6. 09. 2024
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Tony is genuinely a smart guy and is very kind I want to see him again. He genuinely wants to listen unlike some people.
He’s interrupted a lot and doesn’t understand basic religious context. He thought religion is a way to earn heaven? That’s uninformed and ignorant
Ali dawah is not the right person to ralk to this guy.
Talks a bit more than necessary, thinking he brings sth new to the theology convo, listen mate, n most of all, READ.
Tony is a really kind and nice man. I like seeing this kind of people.
I agree i want to see him again.
He is an example of a person who is open minded and not closed minded like most of the other people.
Tony is a honest guy in a discussion, he admits when someone is or could be right instead of dismissing it because of his standpoint. this is how discussions should be conducted.
With no understanding of religon😅, how do you think heaven is something earned that’s so basic
The question of whether God can create a rock so heavy that he cannot lift it is an absurdity with respect to God. The reason being that God in His very definition cannot what be overtaken by His creation. God's power supercedes everything. If it was possible for Him to create something that could overpower Him, He could not be considered God. For Him to create something which is beyond His power is an impossibility. God's very nature is of omnipotence. By creating something which supercedes His potence nullifies His omnipotence, which is impossible. God cannot cease to be God. This is why the question is absurd.
Secondly, weight is a part of the physical laws which God is the creator of. His creation is bound by physical laws. God is not bound by the laws because by the very fact that He created the laws, He has to have existed prior to the laws existing.
Similarly absurd questions are - if God is omnipotent, can God kill himself? The answer is it is an impossibility because the essence of God is existence without beginning and without end, otherwise He would cease to be God, which is impossible.
Keeping this in mind, can God become a man, the rational response is no, because man is created, and God is not created. All created beings are contingent while God is not contingent on anything by His very nature. If He was contingent, He would not be God.
That's a really good response, I like it!
Bullshit. You know nothing. All region is a product of man's imagination. The fact there are so many different religions just proves it. Religion was spread by the sword and forced upon people. They killed man , women and child, taking virgin's as sex slaves. They married children for fuck sake. Highly immoral and repulsive.
@@truman5838 You deserve nobody's time. I am happy that nobody gave you attention. . .
Ur a smart man
@SALAM plz pin this comment. It clears a lot.
"And most certainly shall We try you by means of danger, and hunger, and loss of worldly goods, of lives and of [labour's] fruits. But give glad tidings unto those who are patient in adversity" Quran, surah alBaqara
This is the perfect response that Ali could have given
He could've said that this world is trial and tribulation. Allah tests us to see which of us are best in deeds. That this world is a temporary abode where we are tested with different things, for the attainment of our the hereafter.
But saying that we do have the luxury of hindsight. He did still make some good points
Tony is a great guy. May Allah guide him. We need more of him.
A person whom actually discusses in order to understand, digest and then constructively and politely ask.. rather than most people whom get into discussions just so that they reply. No understanding, no comprehension.. nothing. But this lad, a sincere lad he is. I pray for Allah to guide him to the righteous pathway along with all of the people on this earth, Ameen ya rab al 3alameen
The arguments.....the language, wowww🤯litteraly mind blown, thank God I totally understand it!
One of the most wholesome discussions on Speakers Corner, i loved how both sides werent rude or trying to "defeat" the other, its really nice to have someone ask questions of Islam and getting answers without dismissing them outright, instead he asked questions and poked on it with honest questions. I want to see more of this talks, Tony, come back once a week :D
this past week.. i’ve had the same question about finite mistakes ,infinite hell and it had shifted my belief towards agnosticism more.. thankgod i found this video because no one could explain it to me. alhamdulilah may god guide me to the correct path
There is a lot of material on this topic. It's a topic dicussed by scholars since the beginning
How did his answer convince you? No one has ever loved for eternity. So adding that people will sin for eternity in order to justify eternal punishment is a very weak argument.
But that aside, the real argument Here is the fact that according to Islam Allah knows if you Jad will go to hell or heaven after you die. And Allah knew this before he even created sin , evil, the universe, the angels, hell, and the first man Adam. Yes Allah knew every single choice you would ever make in your life, and he knew that before he even created Adam. And then he created you and you made exactly those choices. In this scenario, you have NO FREEDOM OF CHOICE!!! there is no free will if god is defined as an all-knowing and all-powerful being who is at the same time the creator of everything that exists.
@@markorbit4752 You definitely have free will. Just because Allah knows whether you will do bad deeds or good deeds does not mean he has forced you to do them. He knows, but He does not force that action on you. Therefore, if you go to hell, then you have earned that yourself, and if you go to heaven, it is because you have earned Alllah's mercy.
@@solusnf4147 The point is that allah KNEW all the things I will do BEFORE HE DESIGNED ME!!!! Therefore he designed me specifically to do those things...This is simple logic. How comes you don´t get it?
@@syk-8031 I think we have to establish a few things here:
1. Did god design and create me?
2. Does god make mistakes?
3. Did god know what I will do BEFORE he designed and created me?
So if god is the one who designed me, and god knew what i will do before he designed and created me, and god doesn´t make mistakes, then CLEARLY, god designed and created me to do the things i did, and he is responsible for all my actions.
When Tony says: Maybe, yes thats possible but why are you 100% sure that is the case. HERE the conversation needs to shift to a different topic: why Islam is the Truth or why the Quran is the word of God. Because at the end of the day, we can talk about all the endless possibilities that we can imagine but they remain possibilities so long as they are not proven. We then need to show and prove why our position IS the actual Truth amongst all those possibilities.
Not one of your debaters can prove that. Muslims never debate on this topic because they know the evidence isn't strong enough. A lot of atheists have challenged Islam to provide it's evidence for being the truth, but they cannot.
That´s when muslims start talking about "miracles in the quran" lol
@Katy Shay Well, that´s kind of you. Start by presenting to me one single miracle from the quran. For the sake of clarity a quranic miracle would be information within the quran which no human being could have possibly known at the time if the quran´s writting.
@Katy Shay sorry, I'm not very smart . Which is why I asked you for help. So, are you willing to help me find some scientific miracles in the Qur'an?
@Katy Shay +respect . Wish you the best
god is the best of planners. looking back, I've had some of the most stressful and depressing times of my life and i questioned why god put me through that. but somehow through those tough times, I've managed to mature and grow up so much and learn so much in such a short time. and now looking back, I think god made the best decision to put through this so I can end up where I am now, in a much better place. but as I said, at that time, emotions were taking over, so as a human being, I was quick to blame god for what all the stress... do you see my point? that's why us muslims have trust in god. وَعَسَى أَنْ تَكْرَهُوا شَيْئًا وَهُوَ خَيْرٌ لَكُمْ...
another example, is what we're dealing with right now, which is the corona. you might think it's an awful thing that god gave us, but little do you know... god knows best... you don't know what the future holds... that's just the devil telling you that god is evil :/
this is good, thanks
Some children have the most stressful time of the lives already at 2 year. The suffer of hunger and die young of starvation , and some are raped. Some test your creator chose for them!.....oh wait, you will tell me they went straight to heaven..lol.
@@markorbit4752 I respect your opinion/thoughts but don't mock mine. after all this is what i believe, and no stranger in the comments is going to make me change my mind.
Tony is one of the best guys I have seen may allah guide me ....need Tony part 2
After a long time we had a good conversation like this.
Tony has some really logical and wise arguments, a very wise man
Tony doesn't seem to understand why the boulder question is invalid. It's invalid because it contradicts the definition of God.
It's invalid because it only presupposes 2 possibilities where both deem Allah incapable one way or the other.
@@rahilhabib It's not that the question is invalid, it's the concept assigned to the entity that's invalid if it creates an absurd outcome. In other words, it doesn't make something invalid just cause it makes Allah incapable, it's the assumption that he is capable of ANYTHING which is invalid.
@@swastiksingh5225 Yup, it's basically asking something like can Allah choose to die. It's simply absurd because it would not befit his majesty.
@@mohamedalahmadani5174 Yeah and that doesn't make the question absurd. Asking if Allah can choose to die is a completely logically sound question, and the answer is no, he CANNOT. He can't choose to die even if he wanted to because it's in his nature to be eternal. The question isn't absurd, it just makes Allah incapable of dying because oh his nature of existence.
And this EXACTLY is the paradox or logical inconsistency. NO ENTITY can be omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent all at once. It's just logically impossible, just like being dead and alive at the same time. Those traits are not compatible with eachother. Unless you define omnipotent as having power over everything that exists instead of capable of doing ANYTHING. That means you'd have to say Allah can only do anything within the possibility of things that already exists and can't do literally ANYTHING, if you also want to preserve his other traits like being omniscient and omnipresent.
One other paradox it creates is that Allah can't have free will if he's omniscient, because if he already knows what he's gonna do in the future then he CAN'T do anything other than that ( it also dismisses our free will because same logic follows) Therefore, these traits are internally inconsistent and Allah can't have all of them.
@@swastiksingh5225 One cannot be alive and be dead at the same time. If a person demands God be alive and dead at the same time since he is omnipotent, then demand of that person is absurd since one possibility automatically excludes the other.
On your second point, what is future to Allah? Allah isn't bound by time and space.
I must say Tony is so calm and understanding unlike others
Short answer: We cannot understand God's wisdom so it's impossible to speak on His behalf. I believe the Quran is His words and He mentioned in Surah 2:30 when the Angels asked the same question: "...I know that which you do not know". Now tell me why I should not believe in the Quran and I will give you my reasons why I should. The foundation is the Quran to answer about predestination. If you believe in the Quran, Allah tells us He is the most Just and wise. That solves the Question.
Our knowledge is limited
@@mavericktribe8065
Great. Provide original Torah given to Moses, please, or oldest extant manuscript for verification purposes.
It doesn't solve any questions, it just makes us have more questions.
@@rebellion7463 Like??
@@mavericktribe8065
No need to read your longer book when your short comments are incoherent.
YOU took your previous comment down, the one I first reacted to.
That makes you devious.
Anyway, I asked you for the EARLIEST extant Torah since YOU said we need it. (Or words to that effect)
I am Muslim, i follow Qur'an and Sunnah of Prophet Muhammad Salalahu Alayhi Wa Salam.
If you think I'm on the wrong path and should be in Judaism or Christinity, post evidence or make a coherent argument.
0:38 Quran's view on who goes to hell
4:02 why were humans created when a lot of them would be going to hell?
6:23 Qadr, free will
10:00 doin evil and pointing the finger to God
14:50 tawakkul, having trust in God
17:58 difference between
29:55 the omnipotent needs to make a creation more powerful than him
Thank you
34:47 Blown my mind too. That one argument summaries the whole question of hell for eternity.
You just saved thirty minutes of my time. Thank you!
in one sentences their is a lot of people who want to live this life as heaven but that s not true this life is a test your not going to be stable your not going to be happy all along comfortable but you can be stable and happy for ever in heaven the doniya will give all taste of life bad and the good evil and kind the ugly and beauty but the only place that have one side of the good is heaven the bad is hell
@@m0o0ntecrist08 So I am guessing in heaven you can be happy with no effort? You will get along with everyone and you will no longer have to work hard for anything you wish or desire to have. You will be happy eternally.
@@comet6740 yes the only thing that make us not happy in this life is comparing us with others is the greed and the corruption that make life depressing like a jungle the strong eat the weak the rich controle the poor but what are you going to greed in heaven when you have every thing you have peace foood house anything you want their is no reason to fight in heaven
I've never heard that argument myself before. But is is still a weak one as it means that God punished people for crimes they might commit in future. And since no bod lives for eternity in earth, pretending that they would have sinned for eternity if they lived that long is simply nonsense
Avoid Hell by simple methods. Do not reject the Creator. Do not give partners to the Creator.
That's it.
What are partners?
@@jsingh_15_20 Partners in divinity. Like Jesus or Krishna or Gurus or Imams saying and believing with your heart and mind that these are equal to Allah or have a share in His Lordship as Lords.....
But the Islamic narrative of the creator makes no sense to me. So why would I not reject the Islamic creator and his claimed prophet? The arguments are not convincing. That does not make me a bad person.
@@markorbit4752 You are not s bad person. I accept that. You imply you are good and do good. The question is what are your good deeds worth?
Answer: Worthless. Like ashes on a windy day they are blown away scattered not to be ever seen. No weight. In the sight of Allah zero weight. In the sight of the recipient they are good and that recipient will be witness to them on the day of judgement...they may go some little way but only a little.....
@@malhamaulkubra4437 Do you have the power to classify deed as worthless? Are you assuming to speak for your God?
The story told of dhul qarnain and Musa explains this. We perceive things in a particular way but Allah is all knowing and put things into 'play' before we ever had the chance to see something.
No. The story told of zhul qarnain is exactly what the story says for a few reasons:
1. If he wanted to see the setting of the sun, all he had to do was to stay put. He didn't have to travel for that...unless of course he believed there was an actual place where the sun disappeared as you would expect if the sun was orbiting a flat earth.
2. He built a wall between 2mountains to hold people back. This is only possible on a flat earth. On a sphere, people will just walk around the wall. There is no way you can created a wall between 2 points in a sphere such that a person cannot go around it. But on a flat earth, you can create a wall at the edge of the earth, and there will be no way around it. Hence the author of the story of zhul qarnain believed that the earth is flat.
May Allah guide Tony. What a lovely genuine guy asking real and important questions. You can tell he ACTUALLY want to learn. Not just playing games.
This is probably one of the best salam corners I have seen, cuz both of them being respectful while also Ali spreading facts
I find it amazing that they don't believe yet they worry about the Qur'an saying disbelievers will go to jahannam (hellfire).
It aint amazing, as a disbeliever I tried to approach quran a couple of years ago, cause every muslim says that it is the truth and it's got science supporting it and blablabla, so the thing is, why shouldn't I give it a shot and check whether it sounds crazy or accurate in its texts. I was disguted by the first few verses of it.. kept reading few pages but all that was written in there was how disbelievers would eventually burn in hell, and how they shouldn't be trusted or whatsoever by muslims. I mean wtf? Why would you divide your own population that way? Why would you condemn someone just for not being taught about you? Or even worse, why would you punish someone for not believing into your existence? Would you ever create a whole universe, put in it a whole species, capable of great minds and intellect, and burn part of them down just cause they have free will and the possibility of choosing not to harm people but just to believe in something else rather than your existence? This doesn't sound as a merciful god to anybody approaching islam and that's a fact.
@@marcellomontanaro3901 You have made the assumption that the only harm is physical harm against another human being. Just bc you dont acknowledge other evils as wrong doing or don't understand the wisdoms behind certain disciplines dosent mean that you are automatically within some kind of "Not applicable" category. If all concepts of Goodness and all concepts of evil have been created from a divine being, then this divine being would also have a moral code with which He expects his creations to abide by. And the only way anyone would accept this moral code that takes into account every type of wrong and right, Good or bad, Big or small deed, would be from the belief in the God that created it.
The foundation for implementing or at the very least, acknowledging this objective morality would be the thing that could make or break you actually applying True goodness or Real evil in your life. Bc its your belief system that determines everything you do afterwards.
Every deed you do, good or bad starts with a thought, then the intention as to why you would do it, then the choice to carry out, followed by the actual action.
If your intentions are selfish and self serving for a good deed, its not a real good deed, so it dosent actually count as good even if you regard as such.
If you are commiting a sin thinking this isnt bad, it dosent mean there isnt harm in it just bc you have failed to see it. And you not believing in a God just means that you will never repent or change this wrong action bc you dont think its wrong and you dont believe in a God, so you will be held accountable for all of it. EVERYTHING.
The idea that God will punish you just for not believing in him is a false misunderstanding, you are being punished for everything thing that comes from the root cause of your sins and faulty good deeds which was disbelief.
You are only seeing a piece of the bigger picture of Why the punishment is so great.
To Reject God is to reject all Goodness. And whatever you think is Good that you have applied in your life was most likely done for a specific motive and only done if or bc you felt like it.
@@kayc.8283 this is utterly arrogant coming from anyone. You have made the assumption that every good thought and every merciful act can only come from the root of being a believer. Being a disbeliever doesn't make you anyway more evil than being a believer could. Those who misinterpret the words of god and use them as a coverage for their sinful and violent acts aren't anyway better than me trying my best to be a good human being for myself and the ones surrounding me. Moreover being a disbeliever doesn't make one more selfish at all, cause knowing that you're living a test on earth and that you will be judged at the very end for your actions, just make you selfish for every good action you do.. simply cause the root of the thoughts you've carried into actions is that you need salvation and to be seen as valuable on judgment's day. At least every good action of mines come from the sole fact of me wanting to do something good for this world. (Now Im not assuming that you're not good willed or anything, but the very root of it just can't but carry this bad background which is the need for salvation, which atheists, agnostics and other creeds believers don't necessarily have, making every good action subconsciously more selfish)
@@marcellomontanaro3901 How can good deeds done for God be arrogant? You missed my point on where you morality comes from in the first place? When you say your trying to be a "good person" what does "good" mean exactly for you? And who said someone who misinterpreted the words of God was better than you in anyway? They are going to answer for their evil just like everyone else. There are so many assumptions and self biases in your answer here. Who told you that you were "good"? Who told you that you were even trying your BEST? This is the part where atheists generally insert how they havent killed or physically hurt anyone therefore they're automatically in the "Good" category. Also very curious about what "Good" it is that you actually did for the world?
The reason many "disbelievers" are concerned about that question is because you claim Allah is most merciful, yet he creates disbelievers to send them to hell. then you claim Allah gave everyone free will, but you claim Allah is all knowing, meaning if he is all knowing, then he knows who believes and who disbelieves, meaning that there is no free will, and that Allah created disbelievers just to send them to hell.
I find it interesting how strongly people believe they are entitled to their own freedom. However, when it comes to negative events occurring (tsunami, shooting, illness, etc), the discussion turns into "why didn´t God intervene?"
Anyway, it was nice to see such a respectful conversation :)
TOP MAN TONY. REALLY ENJOYED LEARNING A LOT FROM THIS CONVERSATION. MAY ALLAAH REWARD YOU.
It’s quite simple, God’s wisdom can be explained and thus theoretically can be plausible, while on the other hand the Christian idea of God becoming a human who eats, sleeps, goes to the toilet, gets tortured and killed, prays to himself and cries out to himself “why have you forsaken me” can never be logically explained. It’s a clear inconsistency with his very nature as an all knowing, all powerful and infinite ever existing being.
You can’t conflate a question that can theoretically be answered with a question that can logically not be plausible, thus the question about God’s wisdom and the question about God’s very nature can not be compared and are not the same.
This is what I understand from this discussion.
But even in the quran, allah already shows so many human characteristics. For example, emotions of love, anger, frustration, hate , need for worship, revenge. So allah becoming human is not that far-fetched to me. All this however is happening under that assumption that allah is all-powerful. Whether we are talking about god´s wisdom or nature, the argument can always be made that our brains are not big enough to understand them. This includes the idea of god choosing to do things that are seemingly against hisnature to us, because we would not even be able to comprehend his nature in the first place. So arguing that there is something which god can not do despite being all-powerful and all-knowing (like the trinity) is to say that you absolutely understand god´s nature .
@@markorbit4752 I would apply Occam’s razor and assume that the Christian explanation of God’s nature is less likely to be true compared to the Islamic explanation of God’s nature.
Also, the very moment God goes against his nature (as in the Christian claim) and turns into a human he ceases to be God because he would be missing one or more of his attributes which make him God. I am sure you can understand why this is a logically unsound claim.
In the Quran the human characteristics that God shows us are not taken at face value so we don’t assume he is like a human like the Christians unfortunately do. The human characteristics are only there to make it easier to understand God but it is no way there to show that God is like humans. God explicitly tells us in the 112th Chapter that there is absolutely nothing like him. Also, no we don’t absolutely understand God’s nature but we can make objections to the trinity with certainty because it is explicitly refuted by God in the Quran. Thus given that we already believe in the Quran as a base for being the truth and words of Gods we can trust in its message.
@@markorbit4752 Also, another reason we have some assumptions about God’s nature in these discussions aside from the Quran is that the Christians also have the same assumptions about him. As you mentioned “All powerful” is one assumption and Christians and Muslims both share this assumption. Thus in a discussion it’s a fair assumption because it’s agreed upon. So when a Christian then goes against an assumption which they themselves have set for themselves it’s a bit illogical.
@@Handle0108 Again, you do not know ANYTHING about god's nature. Claiming to do so is pretty much haram. Because Islam teaches that Allah's nature is incomprehensible to humans. So claiming to know what god can or can not do is claiming to understand the nature of Allah. You don't.
Secondly, Occam's razor can only be applied to observable events or things. Allah is not observable. Appliying this to him makes no sense. It is like applying Occam's razor to the nature of gargoyles. They are fairy tale creatures and are not observable in the real world.
Thirdly, to say that Muslims do not take the human characteristics of Allah as literally as Christians do is a not an accurate statement to make. Muslims constantly talk about how merciful Allah is....and they take this mercy literally. You are trying to make the point that Muslims do not make pictures of Allah, but that does not matter. The fact is that Allah shows too many human emotions and characteristics.
Anyway, to an atheist like me, watching Muslims and Christians debate is the funniest thing ever. It's like watching 2kids debate about which fairy tale character is more real. The answer is: it doesn't matter. They are both fairy tale characters, hence don't exist.
@@markorbit4752 you clearly haven’t comprehended my comment, so let me make myself clear. The logic of Occam’s razor can be applied because the Islamic explanation of God is much more simple and has less assumptions than the Christian one.
Secondly, like I said we definitely do know some things about Gods nature because God literally told us himself in the Quran, I don’t know how this point managed to fly past you. Thirdly, Again, let me reiterate, Gods characteristics in the Quran are simply a means for us to relate to and understand him better as humans with our limited intellect, without such characteristics God would be beyond our comprehension thus God uses human language and Characteristics (anger, Mercy etc) to make us understand different things and to help us relate better.
*"Allah Almighty says: I am as my servants expect me. If he thinks good of me, he will have it . If he thinks evil of me, he will have it."*
Source: Sahih Ibn Hibban 639
Grade: Sahih according to Al-Arna'ut
The key phrase here is "my servant"
Pork Allha he don't earth was round he said 🌎earth is flat 😂😂
so the 4 rules for heall and heaven are not correct you say.
this kind of atheist that i like, he questions things deeply with a good manner
His questions were still unanswered and he made solid arguments. This discussion should have continued.
now this is really a healthy and civilize discussion, good job both of you!
Ali. You need to finish your train of thought before you move onto the next question.
The trinity issue - the Christians own scripture contradicts the trinity.
Also the issue about natural disaster and Allah sending people the paradise through natural disasters.
Firstly the natural disasters was sent by Allah, and there is a reason.
Those that died may have been headed towards disbelief or sin had they lived. Those who believed but we're sinning died through drowning and thus their sins are forgiven. Those who died disbelievers may never have believed had they lived.
Natural disasters or any difficulty such as poverty is a test for all the rest of us. As a chance to prove our humanity and carry out charitable deeds. It is a test for those affected by the disaster and those who witness it.
How can you give zakat if there are no poor people?
How do you know ease without difficulty?
Right on the money. I feel Mohammed Hijab would have done a better if he was present but good effort from Ali dawah
Tony sounds totally sound with His deep wisdom... just loved to hear Tony with His sane mind & heart...
Ali should have gone to the Bible and the Quran and explained that Muslims source of information is legitimate, whilst Christians source is not. Obviously, if Muslims just believed all of those things about god blindly like the Christians do, I can see where the man is coming from. But we don’t. We believe in the Quran which can easily be proven that it is the words of Allah.
Tony said he was atheist
Tony is a good man
Be like *Tony* 🤗
Agree
One big thing missing in what Ali said is that Allah says this world is a test; we are meant to go through trials in this world. Quran 67:2, 29:2, 18:7.
Kind of disappointed Ali never brought up this very crucial point.
You Allha said earth is flat 🤣🤣🌎🌎 pork allha
How can the world be a test when Allah knew all who will pass and all who will fail long before he even created the first man Adam?
@@markorbit4752
In an authentic hadith, Allah mentions that 50,000 years before creation, He told the Pen to write, and it wrote down every single action that will happen in the Universe.
Now, Allah knows you'll do something and b/c of that He wrote it down. It is incorrect to say "He wrote it down and therefore I do actions according to that. So I cant be blamed" No!! Its the other way around. First you will do certain deeds/actions (i.e. that will either land you in paradise or hell) and due to that Allah wrote it down. In a way, your intention/action precedes the writing. Its paradoxical but the reason it is like this is because Allah knows your exact intentions and how you would go on and do things say for example if you were put in scenario A versus scenario B. He knows your predilection/intentions/proclivities/inclinations.
For example, a school teacher has 2 students. The teacher observes the first one clowning around in class and never pays attention while the second is serious, studious, always paying attention. The teacher then concludes student 1 fails and student 2 passes based on his observations. However, things could be different. Maybe student 1 was doing that in order to throw off the other students and make it look like he was a delinquent, but student 2 could have just been acting studious for show and when he reaches home he doesnt do his/her homework and instead plays video games.
The teacher would not be able to decipher this nuance. However, Allah does because He knows the totality of knowledge. Of all variables, all cases, all conditions, all conceivable scenario.
@@dom3073 Allah knows you will do something. True. But at the time Allah know this, you do not exist yet. It is Allah, who , with all that he know about the person he is about to create, goes on and creates you in a specific way such that what has been written WILL COME TO HAPPEN. You had Monday in the matter. The only person who can change the outcome is Allah...not you. You hence have no free will.
In your teacher scenario, consider that the teacher created the test, and then knew all answers student a will give before student A even existed. And then he created student A who gave exactly those answers.
@@markorbit4752
2 mistakes in your answer.
First, the teacher in my example is just a fallible human. In your example, he seems to have god like knowledge and power.
Secondly, Islam is compatiblist. Meaning, its been 2 absolutes. Its between free will and no will. Allah gives human free judgement and choice. He CAN take it away at any time. However, imagine the millions of things that happen around you, trees bustling, animals moving in the wild, electrons whizzing around, cars moving, occasional solar flare from the sun, humans breathing, etc etc all that you will be judged on and have free will is on the decisions you make day to day. Thats what your free will essentially goes down to. Authentic hadith mentions "every action comes from intentions" when an action is executed by you, it comes from the intentions. Allah will look at both your intentions and actions. Most importantly your intentions. Because sometimes ur actions dont match your intentions. Maybe you intended to go to a charity and help people for the day but what happened on the way was you accidentally crashed into somebody and killed them. So instead of doing good, you did bad things. Human beings may hate you and think you may have done that on purpose and you end up in court and jury finds you guilty and ur locked up in jail forever. But Allah doesnt look at it just like that. He will base it on ur intentions. So Allah will discount that action because u didnt intend it.
Another thing, Allah has 99 names. One of those names is Al Adl (The Most Just). He doesnt presume u evil, unlike Christianity, in Islam everyone is presumed good and pure from birth. Yes Allah knows what ur doing and going to do. But at every chance or moment of decision, he gives you chances to get back on path.
Another thing to consider is this: why do we have to be on Earth? Since He already knows whats going to happen, just skip the part where He puts us on Earth and just go to the Heaven and Hell part since he knows who is going to hell and who is going to heaven?
But heres the thing. On that day, u will tell Allah, "why are u putting me in hell or heaven? I didnt even do anything on Earth yet!!, thats not fair"
So in a way, this is why ur on Earth, this is you witnessing ur own actions. Its all being recorded (by angels according to authentic hadith) and a huge receipt of all your actions are being recorded for judgement day. And now when Allah asks u, u should go to hell/heaven, you cant cry or whine, because now u were on Earth and you can recall all the events that took place in your life by your OWN HANDS.
Excellent argument with some interesting points made by Tony.! 😊
Wish we could see him again in the speakers Corner
Man asked some good questions. Hijab could've helped him
May be Hijab could've helped, but it would not have made a big difference. Islam's arguments are weak against a smart atheist
you shut people with proof, there is not proof the debate keeps going.
Tony good on you you are asking the right questions.
needed Hijab for this discussion
The sign of a true brother.
Willing to share his drink.
BLESS him..
And he didn't need any religion to teach him that. But still, if he rejects Muhammed and the Qur'an, Islam says he will burn in hell.lol
May Tony be guided to Islam ☪️ 🙏 ✨
More content with Tony please! Some nice discussion MashaAllah! Great points he is raising
The way he handles himself, reminds me of my professors at Imperial
Subanallah, it’s beyond my comprehension to understand why people ask such questions!! That rock question is crazy
Some people were not raised as believers since before they started to approach critical thinking, so their view of a god isn't as pure as someone else's who's been taught since birth of his existence. If you grow your thinking before approaching to the possibility of god's existence you will surely ask lots of questions about it later on, you'll never blindly accept it
@@marcellomontanaro3901 many atheists used to believe in God very strongly. I am one such atheist.
Great discussion! I hope to see Tony again on your channel guys 👍🏻
looking forward to knowing what other questions he has.
You cannot even look directly at the creation of God etc; the sun. You expect to be able to see God....
Amazing statement Jack!!
When God intervention their creation where is the test!?
Some He hath guided; Others have (by their choice) deserved the loss of their way.(QS Al A'raaf: 30)
Moses said," Our Lord is He Who gave to each (created) thing its form and nature, and further ,gave it guidance. (QS Taha: 50)
Allah knew this who will go to heaven or hell long before he created the earth and Adam. That is all we need to know. There is no free will under such a god
All will return to the Great Creator as our bodies are only on loan for a lifetime but the spirit given us must return to giver regardless of any proclaimed religion We are as one
One of the best discussions I’ve seen in a while
I like this. Very respectful conversation both sides.
It's like telling god, "if you're unlimited, be limited" 🤔 the question is invalid based on language and the definition of the word. Which makes the question invalid.
God turned into a burning bush. I'm sure he can turn into a Bottle
The problem here is what it means to be a "believer." Some people think it just means saying “I believe” ... but maybe being a believer means acting right ... maybe Tony is a believer without knowing it, because he’s honest in his questions and probably in his actions. So if the goal is to be righteous ... then being a believer is something completely different.
that what believe is and should be, but in islam if you are christian even after you heard a islamic messanger BUT you have been righteous your whole life, you still go to hellfire. this is one of the problems with religion
@@Thepankaz1 As far as i know Quran says the opposite, that christians and sabians that are righteous have nothing to fear.
4:14 "why he would create beings knowing they would
end up condemned to an eternal hell while he didn't have to create them in the first place"
by saying that you have to understand something
God give us freedom of choice and that's alone explain to you that our destination and destiny are based on our choices not intentionally chosen by God
thats the side effects that come with freedom of choice
and if he didnt give us freedom of choice , we will be like robots , do only what we programmed to do then
Exactly ..we are entitled and will be held for our actions on the day of judgement because we had a choice to not do it even if we did we have a choice to repent and Allah is most merciful and lives to forgive …. And an example of Malaika the angels that they are incapable of committing sin they don’t have a free will like humans and jinns
Loves to forgive*
Exacly, and the test we are making on this earth is also a choice we gave permission to based on our free will and Allah removed that memory otherwise it will not be a test.
If allah knew that i would go to hell long before he even created the first man adam, is there a way i can change that outcome?
Thw point he is making is that if god is all-knowing and all-powerful, and creates everything, then we do not have freedom of choice
I like the man. He pursue to the tea. Implying denominator of equality in applying a certain concept equally under one scope does valid.
It tooks a person with depth understanding in argument to dissect everything in fair pov.
Wow one of the best Ali dawah dawah. Tony is really a keen and good listener. Ali dawah explanation and interpretation is mind blowing. The beauty about this great talk is coherent and no interference/interruptions.
Also I hope Tony will become a believer in Islam. Great talk
All due respect Ali I think you could have explained a better argument. When Tony asked why Allah doesn’t intervene when terrible things happen in this earth you should have explained that human beings were meant to be tested as a result of a challenge made by Iblis to Allah to delay his own (iblis’s) punishment as a refusal to bow to Adam as in return to prove to God that mankind is not worthy of praise and he would take as many of mankind to hell with him. This explains that in this life we would be tested with hunger, poverty, death, conflict, disease etc and therefore explains why Allah cannot intervene in order for this to be a test of our faith. You could also add that despite this Allah loves us so much that he has provided numerous messengers and a holy book to guide us. To give an analogy its like taking a GCSE exam and the invigilator is giving you notes with the answers so all you have to do is write them in your paper to pass. Allah has made it that easy for us.
Yes i agree this explanation would have been much better. But then, if Tony replies with ‘but god has intervened before many times (times of the prophets) so why not now’ what would be a suitable answer?
@@ronnie9891 As the brother just above my comment mentioned Allah has only ever intervened through the use of prophets. So to rephrase your question it would be 'why hasn't there been another prophet since the prophet muhammed peace be upon him' because if there was another prophet there would also be further interventions by Allah. To answer that question is to explain the central focus of unity in Islam. It's why we all pray in one direction and follow one set of rules regarding halal and haraam. I appreciate there are some people who will differ but the general consensus is the same hence unity. After the prophet muhammed peace be upon him, Islam grew massively and the message spread across the world at a rapid rate informing a significant number people of Islam. Hence the world would be provided with an ideal way to follow one set of rules and another prophet would just contradict and cause more confusion for rules already established. Hence no prophet no interventions from Allah.
Also to link this to my initial point the interventions from Allah were never meant to make this test of this life any easier but rather give guidance to people like we have the message (the Quran) today. Hence people still died in very large numbers in the times of the prophets too, but they never had the quran and even if they did literature levels werent high so they couldnt read it, therefore miracles were necessary to show people to follow a single man (a prophet). But the way Tony is asking for miracles to stop terrible events happening never happened during the time of the prophets, now or will they in the future.
Life is not for Allah swt he always knew what our choices would be when we got send to the earth. It is for our own understanding that we accept and understand that we need to go to hell or paradise. Even that shows how grand and great the greatest is, even when he knew he still let us do it so we will understand it ourselfs aswel. This is alsow why we have complete free choice but can not make definite choices for others. What a gift and what a love this life is. alhamdulillah
1. This life is not heaven.
2. This life is a test whether we like it or not.
3. We still have free will.
No one questions having exams in schools or going for a driving test. Just like no one questions the punishment for a criminal act is imprisonment. Problem is on earth we don't get rewarded for being good. The system we have is more centered on punishment. As long as we follow the rules we don't get punished. That's the flaw.
Allah will punish or reward each of us even if it is an atoms worth of deed. But He is also the most Merciful so the reward will actually be much greater if we, with our freewill, seek forgiveness and do good deeds. SubahanAllah.
The reason why people question God for testing people in this fashion is:
1. No one wanted to take the test, everyone was just created and then given a test which they couldn't hope to pass. It's not the same as a driver's test as no one is forcing him to take the test.
2. God created some people specially to fail the test and go to hell.
@@swastiksingh5225 i used to think that buddy. But thats where we are wrong. God says that actuall we all choose to take this test and we had an option not to take it. And by we i mean each and every single soul. And the deal was if you still take this test and pass, you sould be superior than Angel.. and if you dont you would become inferior..
Refer this video of Zakir naik
m.czcams.com/video/tPK_54avpX0/video.html
@@mrlaz1497 I'm sorry I don't like referring to his videos because he's almost all the time very dishonest and lie about facts. I saw his video on turning an atheist into a muslim through science and he lied in ALL the arguments he used, either that or he's a complete ignorant who doesn't know anything about science and the history of the world, which I doubt he is for a man of his stature. His arguments are only good enough to convert ignorant laymen who doesn't know anything about science and theology. So I'd love it if you can refer me some authentic source.
This is the kind of conversation that we need , muslims and non muslims. All those arguments, r just waste of time and energy.
A better example would have been to say the tsunami killed a mixture, some went heaven and some went hell. That would avoid the back and forth on how all 250,000 were good people and were located there
Masha'Allah, Ali is spot on with these kind of dialogues.
Interesting, we need a Part 2 with Tony
We do
I know it might be a bit late but in the end when he was talking about how heaven czcams.com/video/ialKAvqLfI0/video.html this video explains it
As a Muslim I believe Tony won this argument. Ali Dawah needs to learn to refer Tony to people who have the ability to deal with this. Such as Dr Colin Turner from Durham University.
He won it because this is how debates with atheists usually go. The Muslim loses. Debating a knowledgeable atheist ( not some Idiot who thinks being non-religious is the same as being an atheist) is quite different from debating a Muslim.
A friend referred me to his imam. The imam quickly realised I had the better Argument and immediately stopped trying to convince me. We stayed friends since then. That was 2007 when I just left Christianity and became an agnostic before ultimately concluding that I was an atheist
Wa liakum Salam from Bangladesh
This is a futile discussion if he is an atheist. These are secondary conversations. The main thing is to establish Gods existence via sufficient proof. If the atheist thinks he is above God by superimposing his sense of morality and then rejecting him, that is arrogance.
Well atleast he has escaped from the things/people he earlier though were gods and now instead of siting quietly and not believing anything else for rest of his life, he is actually making conversations with people who can guide him in the right path sooner or later...
What people need to understand is that they chose to become human and go through the test. So look at how absurd it is now that people are having a problem with hell. You CHOSE to come to this world as a human and go through this test with the result of heaven and hell.
We Muslims believe that but I don’t if other religion do or not
@@_Daavie_
If you remembered, it wouldn't be a test.
Think.
@@yesboi6516
Other religions don't have this info, Islam has more info on all aspects of Deen than any "religion".
@@_Daavie_ Al-Ahzab 33:72
إِنَّا عَرَضْنَا ٱلْأَمَانَةَ عَلَى ٱلسَّمَٰوَٰتِ وَٱلْأَرْضِ وَٱلْجِبَالِ فَأَبَيْنَ أَن يَحْمِلْنَهَا وَأَشْفَقْنَ مِنْهَا وَحَمَلَهَا ٱلْإِنسَٰنُۖ إِنَّهُۥ كَانَ ظَلُومًا جَهُولًا
Indeed, We offered the Trust to the heavens and the earth and the mountains, and they declined to bear it and feared it; but man [undertook to] bear it. Indeed, he was unjust and ignorant.
Quran (33:72)
I suggest you read the 'tafsir' (explanation) of this Quran verse to get a better understanding. I guarantee you it's be one of the most beautiful things you'll ever read. To find out about how we can here, truly there something blissful in it.
@hzr chels when a clear verse in the Qur'an states the reality of how each creation choose and many were scared to become human but we chose to do so then I don't know where your ignorant comment has any leg to stand. What you say is merely your saying, if heavens and the earth were to your liking then there would be utter chaos
The one who pretends to know everything, is the person who doesn't know a thing.
Not necessarily true. No one can know nothing
insha allah we'll see more of that brother... may Allah guide him to the truth and know that Allah the entirely merciful the especially merciful is the only God worthy of worship and Muhammad SAW is his final messanger
Ali dahwa what a great explaination u gave even i was surprised
is it that hard to understand ? Allah give you two choice and free will
1. following his way ( the right way to Heaven )
2. not following his way ( the right way to Hell )
if Allah intervene or prevent you from choosing the wrong way then we as human do not have free will to choose.
Allah give you many sign to stop you from choosing the wrong way and if you still chose the wrong way then you can't blame Allah who give you free will.
What is someone is living in Africa in some jungle where the Islam hasn’t reached how can allah send them to hell ?
In Islam heaven is not earned but it is given to people by Almighty God , I read a series of books of the great scholar Mohamed said ramadan al Bouti "May his soul rest in peace" " the book of wisdoms " الحكم العطائية Al-Attaùah advices , explanation and Analysis 4 volumes , and he explained it so beautifully . Just to give you a bit of what he wrote , he basically explained it with a story of the man who dedicated his whole entire life to worship God and did everything that god commanded , stayed away from all the temptations and forbidden things etc... so when the man died , Allah told the angels to take the man to heaven by "His Mercy", and the man stopped and told Allah , why? I did everything you told me to do , never committed a sin , worshipped you day and night ; didn't I earn it ? and God asked the angels to bring the scales , and commanded them to put all of the good deeds that the man did his entire life on one side of the scale and on the other side he asked them to put one of the blessings that was given to that man (like the blessing of sight) and the scale broke down and couldn't handle how heavy was the weight of the blessing in front of all the good deeds of the man... (The moral of the story is we could all try our best to be better muslims and remain thankful and grateful to the one who abled us to see clearly in the first place and then do all of those good deeds but paradise could Never be earned or bought by our own deeds because of the many blessings that surrounds us ,even when we cannot see or acknowledge them doesn't mean they aren't there . Plus questioning the will of Allah defeats the whole concept of being in total submission to Allah "muslim" . When The All-knowing and the All-wise keep constantly blessing you to help you do better in this life and then get to that paradise in the hereafter but unfortunately humans are hardly to be thankful or see anything good about their situations , and if all of this shows something , it only shows his greatness , his mercy and his Nobility) Loved the discussion with the man , hope to see him again in your videos , May Allah bless you !
As a Muslim, I disagree with the claim that anyone will be in hell forever, it goes against God's quality of being the most Merciful. “A time will come in Hell when not a single man would be left in it. Its doors and windows will rattle to the blowing wind” (Kanzul Ummal pg.270).
There are so many videos I want to watch but because of the length I always don't. I think the channel should also update small but useful cuts from debates and other videos.
Like if you agree.
He uploaded a small cut of from the video on his own channel, which I assume he does often, so you should check there.
May ALLAH SWT guide the Brother to Islam aameen
Tony is very understanding.
Is clever. Needs guidance.
We need Tony more on the channel. He represents atheists like myself very well
Another answer is that this life is a test, that’s why there’s hardship and suffering in the world. Allah tests us in different ways so the argument of why doesn’t God intercede to stop bad things happening isn’t valid to disprove God.
In Geeta it is said God is sakar as well as nirakar sakar means which we can see feel and nirakar which we cannot see with our eyes
Well, in quantum mechanics there are particles in contradictory states all the time (for example, in two places at the same time). God can create a rock that He cannot lift, because He can lift it and not lift it at the same time.
Allah is like the teacher who will fail you in a test because u didnt use his method to get to the correct answer even though u got the right answer but with different method. this is not mercifull.
I’m sorry, I was laughing at the becoming water part…truly invalid😂😂😂
Freewill: you make all your own choices yourself (E. G. Go on holiday to the coast, as they discussed).
Predestination: Allah knows ALL the decisions you can, have and ever will make and has derteminded things for you (E. G. Death is written to our exact location, time, date - change as the tsunami).
Can you choose not to go on that holiday to the coast if Allah knows that you're going to the coast?
@@swastiksingh5225 Indeed you can try to do so but you will end up at place where your death is written
@@swastiksingh5225 of you can but the point I'm saying is you already made the choice and Allah know that. Since you don't know what will happen at that coast why then would you change your mind about that? (since that's really the only deterrent here).
@@swastiksingh5225 think of when watching a movie for the first time. You don't k ow what's going to happen until it plays out in the story. You going through it almost with the characters wondering what choices they will make, what will happen etc.
Now when you watch the same movie the 2nd time, you already know what going to happen.
Allah already has knowledge of what choices we have decided to make, just like when we watch a movie for the 2nd time.
@@muhammad_al_ayyubi That'd mean we don't have free will
before the creation of hazrat adam p.b.u.h.
allah said to satan that one of his creations will soon become his challenger and satan who was then called as iblis replied that who would even go against allah after everything he has given to his creations and at that time iblise was the closest to allah of all creations
after creation of adam p.b.u.h. when allah asked all of his creations including iblis to bow before him, iblis denied claiming hes much more than this man and challenged allah that he will misguide this creation till qayamt.
It's best not to delve in too deep about the nature of God that we can never comprehend. It's best to quote direct passages from the Quran in order to solve confusion. Say God is one, not two or three. The gentleman's mind is thinking too critical about the nature of God but we can just solve this issue by quote verses from the Quran.
And Christians also have their reasons for believing God is three in one. Don't try to comprehend it....to burrough from your argument
Islam is not belong to any Muslim,
Islam will win with you or without you.
Islam comes for all the humen, humanity. And to inform people that you're supposed to worship one God and the final prophet/messenger is Muhammad (S.A.W.) and he's the best ideal for all humen kind.
Allah says: God does not forgive association with Him, and He forgives what is less than that.
The biggest sin against God is that you associate with him, the question is if you are an atheist or a non-Muslim, why will God enter you into Paradise and you don't believe in him?
wow this is such a logical argument
Gotta give it to this guy Tony, he is smart and can make a good case. I really enjoyed this conversation.
Perhaps Tony should have a conversation with Hijab or Tzortsis too? That would be interesting
A good way I like to interpret free will and destiny is this:
Let’s use the analogy of the book.
Your destiny is the book. And your free will is what is written.
You wrote the book but it was written already. This makes sense if you think about it. Like whatever you choose that’s your choice. But that choice is already written.
Like you can choose to kill someone or spare them. Whatever you choose you choose. But it was already in the book. But that doesn’t mean it was made the decision for you. You made it.
God can do everything and we can't say that he can't do something. However, God has already laid down certain principles for himself and based on that we can say God isn't so and so. For eg, god says he is one and noone should be worshipped other than him. If we put this logic to Christianity, Christianity can be critiqued. We don't say God can't be trinity because he doesn't have the power, but because he has already laid down the basic principle for him within the 10 commandments
Allah can not forgive sin.. He can only do HISAB...
Allah is all knowing and has predestined everything and we have free will. How do you prove that? Well first of all we say that we say that we cannot do anything without gods permission we can only intend to do so. For e.g if I intend to move my hand I cannot unless god grants permission and only then will I be able to move it. So if i intend to do good or bad i will be granted permission to do so. We have the ability to choose to intend whether we do good or bad. So when god is predestining everything that will occur he knows what we will intend and therefore predestines our deeds according to that. This is why in islam we say it's not your actions but your intent that matters which is backed up by the hadith about the first three people to enter hellfire.
In islam we have a system that I will refer to as "compensation" according to which every being will be compensated for their suffering in the hereafter. For e.g the rich will be questioned about how they spent their wealth while the poor will be rewarded for their patience in life dealing with poverty. This is backed up by the hadith that states that the person that has 1 dirham in this life is better than the one that has 2 Dirham. (I expect my fellow brother to provide sources and correct me In the comments in case on inaccuracy)
Also this world is made to test us. Poverty, disease, loss of family and business etc are all placed there specifically to test our patience and trust In god. No one will be tested in a manner that he he cannot bear which is stated in a hadith or quran but it is stated 100%. Those who are patient will be rewarded.
As for why allah would create those who he knew would go to hell I'm going to say why would would you need mathematical equations whose answer you knew was going to be negative? (Not saying this is the exact reason and I dont understand gods wisdom but this was the best answer that came to my head)
I'm not a scholar so their might be a better answer and Allah knows best.
P.s this is how you build a wall trump. (No offense intended just a joke hopefully it isnt Insensitive or offensiive. Idk because I'm from the east and never been to us or researched about its politics)
One of the most interesting discussions ive ever seen. And ive seen most of your videos ali
I learnt a lot today on how to argue respectfully
Humans can’t grasp the wisdom of Allah.. for a very simple reason that birth, life and death is not as exciting or tragic to Allah as it is to us. Allah is far more than what our minds can comprehend. The only way possible to understand the wisdom of Allah is by being at his position which is impossible.
Very interesting and good debate MashAllah
I genuinely am thankful the title wasn't atheist vs Muslim instead it was Muslim AND atheist we should fight but we should debate for the better
Ladies and gentlemen that is the perfect example of argument for the sake of arguing
tony just buried him😂😂
Good effort from Ali Dawah but i’m afraid u need someone like Mohammed Hijab to tackle an intellectual like this man.
Muhammed Hijab would fail here as well
I would say that the difference between the wisdom of God and what he can do and what he cannot do is just like this example if you see a man cutting off a leg of another man from far away you would say he is evil why he is cutting the man’s leg but if you come closer and ask the man why you are cutting his leg and he would say because I’m a doctor and His leg has a disease that’s why I need to cut it off And what he can do and in a matter of Christian because if he makes to God or three why not make thank God or even more and this is continue you would say that become a battle that become a tree that become an animal et cetera which doesn’t doesn’t be fitting for his Majesty.