Introduction to Icons
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- čas přidán 17. 10. 2022
- The Early Church used images a LOT! This is an introduction into the extensive and ancient traditions of art, beauty, and iconography in the Christian world.
DO NOT STOP HERE, there is much to discover!!! Keep reading:
First up, our thanks to Aidan Hart for talking through icons with us ahead of this episode. We've known him since we were knee-high and his icons were very much a part of our childhood in the faith. His work is beautiful, but Aidan also shows through articles and interviews how icons guide us to understanding Jesus, and building our relationship with Him and the Church. Look through his site and read some of his articles here: aidanharticons.com
An excellent discussion between Aidan and Jonathan Pageau on icons: • The Dance between Sacr...
A short documentary featuring Aidan: • Iconographer Aidan Hart
Jonathan Pageau on 'Why we venerate images': • Why We Venerate Images
Read a defence of images by the incredible Saint John of Damascus: www.gutenberg.org/files/49917...
The contemporary iconographers, whose work is featured in the sequence from 9:02 in order:
Aidan Hart - aidanharticons.com
Brian Matthew Whirledge - www.brianwhirledge.com
Milica Mišić - milicamisic.com
Tamara Penwell - tamarapenwellicons.com
Jonathan Pageau - www.pageaucarvings.com/index....
Seraphim O'Keefe - seraphimokeefe.com
Film clips from our filmmaking channel: / thebrothersrobinson
Frederica Mathewes-Green on icons "Is it idolatry?": • Using Candles and Icon...
Ben from Theoria discusses 'Are icons idols?' in a very thorough video: • Are Icons Idols? [Resp...
Steve from 'Be the Bee' gets through things in only 5 minutes: • Be the Bee # 53 | Vene...
Steve again but with 15 minutes to talk about restoring icons to faith and commemorating that day in Great Lent: • Be the Bee # 169 | Why...
Article on 'Icon Smashing' and destroying art: blogs.ancientfaith.com/glory2...
Bojan gives his take on the difference between icons and idols in a video: • The Difference Between...
Jonathan Pageau with Fr John Strickland talking 'History of the West in view of the East' where they briefly cover things like the renaissance: • History of the West in...
Fr Silouan Justiniano talks iconography and contemporary art in a fascinating discussion for artists and art lovers; • Icons and Contemporary...
Andrew Gould on should 'architecture represent heaven': • Christian Architecture...
Andrew Gould's work: newworldbyzantine.com
For some in depth continued research on iconography and spiritual art: orthodoxartsjournal.org
Learn iconography with Julia Hayes, who has a MASSIVE amount of resources online including free videos and courses: www.ikonographics.net
To learn more about Orthodoxy, history, iconography, theology of beauty and so much else: visit an Orthodox Church. Go to a Sunday liturgy, and speak with the priest afterwards.
Teh Tarik recipe video (perhaps we should make a Patristix teh tarik video? Let us know in the comments) : • Teh Tarik Recipe: How ...
About teh tarik: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teh_tarik
Please support this channel here: ko-fi.com/patristix
Also follow us on social media for cool graphics, pictures and info:
Facebook - / patristix
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"I do not worship matter, I worship the God of matter, who became matter for my sake, and deigned to inhabit matter, who worked out my salvation through matter. I will not cease from honouring that matter which works my salvation."
- St. John of Damascus (+749)
Beautiful!
👏❤️☦️🙏
Wise words.
As someone coming out of Protestantism I have a greater appreciation for icons. And every time I listen to a story about an individual Saint I feel like I want to get a icon of my favourite Saints..🙏🏽
This is one of the best introductions of Icons, excellent historical and theological accuracy ☦️
I totally agree!
I agree!
I just passed art history part 1&2 and a great portion of it relates to religious artwork, both pre and post the reformation. I became very enthusiastic learning about icons, especially after these images brought back memories of me as a child seeing icons growing up catholic.
You may enjoy some if the videos and resources we have linked in the description too! And we have a growing number of icon explainer videos on this channel too
I have thoroughly enjoyed all of your videos, but I must say that this one takes the cake for me. This will definitely be my new go-to video for inquirers (or skeptics) whenever they ask about our iconographic tradition. Absolutely brilliant! I can hardly wait for the next installment regarding the specifics and technicalities of iconography! Solid work! ☦️
I have to hand it to you and how well you are able to not only articulate each concept you discuss in your videos but you do it so concise yet full of historical context. Keep up the great work.
Thank you for this video! I will be sharing this link with my Icon writing students and friends since it is a short, concise explanation that will bless many people. Again, thank you! Christine Hales
Can’t wait for more videos on icons! This one was great! Thank you!
Thank you! We currently have breakdowns of the 'Trinity' and Nativity icons on the channel too
An excellent overview of icons and a tea recommendation at the end. This is my kind of channel. Thanks for all you do!
This channel is incredible!
O Holy and Venerable John of Damascus, Theodore the Studite, and the Holy Fathers of the Seventh Ecumenical Council, pray for us sinners!! Have a blessed Sunday of Orthodoxy!!☦️🙏
Thank you for this introduction! 🙏🏿☦️
Host: "There is a place, a proper place, for imagery in worship."
Me: 👏🏿🙇♂️
Thanks, friend! ❤️
This was so insightful. I had no idea!
Amazing, the topic I've been waiting for. Love it
Thank you!
Love your channel, brother! Thanks for such thoughtful and informative videos! Cheers!
Thanks for the subtitles!
Excellent work. Well explained.
Amazing. Thank you!
Love the video and the tea.
Thought you would ;)
I absolutely loved this video!!! And I wanted to say all along WE are the most Holy Icon ❤️ I found your channel on IG
Thanks for watching!
Great video!
Extraordinary beauty❤
Thank you for your awesome introduction video on icons!! May God bless you and your channel!! Also, May God bless the Holy and Venerable Sts. John of Damascus and Theodore the Studite as well the Holy Fathers of the Seventh Ecumenical Council!!
Awesome explanation. Subscribed!
Thank you thank you thank you! ☦️❤️
Wow thank you for promoting our Malaysian Teh Tarik on your video, that really took me off guard haha but thank you appreciate it :)
It is truly delicious!
Great explanation!
beautiful!
Johnathan Pague has a great channel on iconography and imagery
I have also been working my way through "Painting with Light" by a Greek iconographer.
That last bit on ‘teh tarik’ was superb! 😋😍
We love teh tarik!
Please do a video on Ethiopian orthodoxy tradition
Thank you. Kyrie Iesu Christe Eleison Me 💖🙏➕
Oh the comment sections in this new series will definitely be spicy lol
Excellent video. Thank you!
Love this! also noticed a little clip from the alternate?
It is indeed from The Alternate! The one place where the Guide removes his hat. Good memories making that film, right?
You had me at "sweetened condensed milk".
It is SO good
Can you do a video explaining the significance behind the peacock egg shaped icon
❤
I actually love that the West redeemed pagan symbolism, and reused the beauty of the pagan art and made the symbols Christian. I love both the overwelming and modest icons.
Great video Brother! So it seems that the perception of images differ between Orthodox and Catholic in that Catholics see them as more artistic and Orthodox more spiritual. Is that correct?
Basically yes. Though Catholics will agree with it, and over the last century or so have brought back more of it, Orthodoxy has a consistent history of veneration. Jonathan Pageau (an Orthodox iconographer) breaks it down a few differences here (in a discussion with Catholics): czcams.com/video/RtkhjuB9azY/video.html
And there are some other discussion links in the description above
@@Patristix
Excellent! Thanks for the resources. I’ve been enjoying the content and learning about the Faith. Were you raised Orthodox or did you convert?
Raised in it! Very grateful for that.
Thanks for watching the videos Ryan. It definitely is an exciting world to discover!
@@Patristix
Very cool! I’m from America in what we call the South. Or Dixieland as we call it. Raised Protestant, and Baptist is the dominant religion across the country and certainly in the South.
I started researching early church history, the Apostolic Fathers, the Sacraments and just became aware of how truly vast and old the Christian Faith is.
Long story short, I found what was missing from my church and have been on the journey home.
Anyways, grateful for the content and resources, remember me in your prayers and God bless.
Catholic art is full spiritual symbolism. It’s just more “artistic”
QUERIES
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I know about the strictures put on icon paintings and my questions may just turn out to have merely stylistic answers, but here goes - - -
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1) Why do the icons I've seen depict persons with very sad, or downright dour expressions and none of joy or even just happiness?
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2) So many icons have a base layer of a deep greenish color that remains obvious even after the image is completed. To me, this looks like a color of infection or even death. Why don't the images depict persons in a healthy pink of life?
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3) Why do the persons depicted have those very round, cartoonish heads?
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4) Is the goal to have each icon look exactly like its historic counterpart? If so, it doesn't work in reality because I can see definite differences between artists. Are those personalized images acceptable or considered failures?
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Thank you for your time. I am sorry if I do not recognize all the symbolism.
So what does the 2nd commandment mean exactly by idolatry? Or graven images?
Hi, check the links in the description for more information.
This is a short place to start but there's more to it: www.saintjohnchurch.org/does-the-second-commandment-forbid-icons/
@@Patristix I’ve read the article but I’m left with a question in it. The commandment says“You shall not make for yourself a carved image-any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them.” (Ex. 20:4-5). This sounds exactly what the icons are so I’m really confused how this is not a problem. I’m not trying to argue in bad faith. I want to join the orthodox faith but this is blocking me from continuing.
@@amiepecaut6707 I see where you're at. The main point is that the commandment is against idolatry and not imagery specifically (there's a LOT of imagery in the OT). The description below the video is pretty loaded up with links that might help you. The video from Frederica Mathewes-Green is nice and short. But the best thing I can recommend, honestly, is to get to an Orthodox liturgy and have a chat with the priest afterwards. Discuss your thoughts and roadblocks. It's a discussion that's a lot more practical in person!
@@Patristix the video of Frederica was very good and to the point. I also like that channel Theoria a lot. My only question is what does the commandment mean by “carved image” is it a translation for carved idol perhaps?
Frederica is a marvellous teacher isn't she! Also Ben the Theoria guy responds to questions asked.
The commandment is specifically to idols which icons are not. But there's more to it in regards to what it means for depiction and art now that Christ has become incarnate. Also I've updated the description here to include a link to some of John Damascene's writing on the image. It's older, longer reading, but remains some of the best theology on the subject centuries on!
Are you living in Australia? I'm also living in Australia.
As a somewhat recent Christian convert (3 years), carefully exploring theology with Protestantism as my starting point, I'm finding it quite refreshing to consider these topics individually, without the baggage of... "questionable" Roman-Catholic claims of absolute authority looming behind it.
so good to hear from you. but no need to advertise the Tea😁
I couldn't quite hear what kind of tea you have.
Is it teh tarik?
I encountered it in Brunei and Singapore in the 90s. 😊
Yes! It's absolutely delicious
@@Patristix Agreed. 😊
👍
Thank you kindly for this education about the difference between the East and West because the western art is very disturbing ... imho.
Hmm, I learned something new today. My Protestant (“non-denominational) friend shared with me a video about how the sacred heart of Jesus looked like a pagan idol. This video gives me more perspective on why that is. Thank you.
If man was created as an image bearer of God and Christ came to redeem that image, what was the state of the image of man after Adam’s fall, pre-incarnation?
This is a request, I have witnessed something disturbing, some dear people that I know are having their faith shaken regarding Jesus being God. I believe it would make a big impact if you were to make a video about this. Blessings to you all!
That is not much information. Does the problem involve doubting the historicity of scripture, stumbling over Triadology or Christology or what?
@@eikon7001 They know the trinity, but do not understand the essence of it. They understand that the Holy spirit is the spirit of God but they don't understand that Jesus and the father are one "How can God's son be God at the same time"
@@crxtn7349 That is something to work with if it’s a topic he wanted to tackle in a video. In the meantime, a book I recommend is ‘On the Incarnation of the Word,’ by Saint Athanasius. Of course there are others who treated it as well.
In my own case I cannot see any problem. The Father is the Fount of Deity, the Word is eternally begotten of the Father, the Spirit eternally proceeds from the Father. The three eternal divine Persons have one and the same Essence from one Source-whatever in essence is God is God, and the Godhead is Unity in eternal Deity differentiated only by the hypostases (or unique characteristics of the personhood): unbegotten, begotten, proceeding-without relationship to time, that is neither before or after, existing as one Nature, each possessing that which necessarily in essence is God; that which the finite cannot really know or exhaust, but is often expressed by qualities such as omnipotence, omniscience, omnipresence, necessary Existence, Love, Goodness etc. The Son is God, the Spirit is God, the Father is God. God is God.
The Word became flesh and dwelt among us, being Incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary, the human nature taken unto Himself being circumscribed in Christ, and while quickening the body the infinite uncircumscribed Deity remained also in the bosom of the Father and everywhere upholding His creation; the eternal Word, without whom nothing was made that has been made. Christ is that one divine Person with two natures, uncompounded, fully God and fully man, Son of God and Son of Man. The Word suffered no change in His divine essence, Christ is not of a mixed nature but two natures, and the Word by wielding our human nature deified it, and being brought up to heaven sat it down at the right hand of the Father, being made mediator between God and man, making possible our eternal communion with Him.
That is an inadequate exposition of the exquisite Mystery, but the best such a lowly one can do in a few words. May our Holy Father Athanasius help you and your friends.
@@eikon7001 I have given examples of the Church Father's like Ignatius, Clement aswell as Athanasius, but the fact that they are Protestant they do not seem to understand the importance of early church father's, but I will absolutely refer them to the book you have mentioned. I appreciate your concern May the Lord be with you!
@@crxtn7349 I see. The pitfalls of Protestantism are many, which is one of the reasons such an importance is placed on being in the One, Holy, Catholic, Apostolic Church, ‘the pillar and ground of truth.’ Many of them have such a diluted Christology and soteriology so it’s unsurprising when some are shaken or deceived to embrace heresy.
I simply cannot understand the reasoning of one that disregards the Fathers and God-bearers-who had actual authority set forth in scripture to express the true doctrine of the Church, and the Spirit in greater measure than most will attain to on earth-while thinking their own authority and reasoning (or a preacher who attended some seminary) is something to be held in high esteem. One will not hear Athanasius but will align themselves with the anathematized heretic Arius who he condemned in the Spirit to defend the faith? We will not regard Revelation in the Church but rather lean on our own understanding? What ego and madness. I do not write ill of your friends or their intent, only in generalizations.
If any are removing entirely from the faith over the divinity of Christ that is another matter, they have abandoned all hope; if they will not hear the Prophets and Apostles and Holy Fathers then neither will they believe ‘if one should rise from the dead.’ But if they remain yet are being led to embrace heresy then I think their modern Protestant presuppositions need to be challenged in the first place. For if they can read the Fathers expositions of the divine mysteries and still ask “How can Christ be both Son and Lord,” the problem is not simply a rational one but something deeper that will not accept sound doctrine. Through the prayers of our Holy Father Athanasius, may the ancient heresy be defeated for your friends once again, and from that be brought into His Church.
☦️☦️☦️
The invisible becomes visible
Malaysian here. Pulled tea 😂
We love it a lot
I'm back. What did I miss?😅
Good point that human beings are images of God, but why does Christ become flesh make any difference to whether something is an idol or not? The 2nd commandment does not only forbid imaging God, but many other things that are already visible, such as the heavenly bodies, birds, fish, beasts and men; anything that might be worshipped.
Secondly, how many pagans started off being stupid enough to worship a lifeless idol of stone or wood? Surely most pagans began by worshipping unseen spiritual forces through idols, and then ended up stupidly kissing and praising and sacrificing to them. And if that is the case, I am still confused what is the fundamental difference between an icon and an idol. Is the only difference in how it is used? And in that case ...
Thirdly, what are these safeguards against idolatry? Is there a follow-up video explaining?
The description of the video holds a lot of extra links that will help you and there is much more to discover. Would also recommend the podcast ‘Lord of Spirits’ that might help in understanding the differences in our Christian spirituality and pagan spirituality. Idolatrous attention is worse than mere ‘stupidity’. I also recommend reading the treatise about icons by Saint John of Damascus, also linked in our description.
By interacting with this episode, you already see a difference between a CZcams video that portrays people speaking and idols. You’re already at the beginning of understanding that not all imagery is idolatry, and that some images (such as this video) can be interacted with safely and might assist in our understanding of Jesus Christ. From here it is easy to see that imagery can assist in both education, true worship, and the knowledge of God, while not itself being the object of worship.
Christ’s incarnation (becoming flesh) fundamentally transforms our ENTIRE understanding of the physical world because a physical Man is also God incarnate. The separation is destroyed. The material world (ie art) can now direct us to the spiritual because God Himself has used it.
Top recommendation is to visit an Orthodox Church and chat with a priest about all this. CZcams and books can’t get you nearly as far as a good chat can!
@@Patristix Thank you for replying. There are a lot of links, but I anticipate that if I followed them all I would waste a lot of time and still not get a simple clear explanation of the difference between idolatry and icon veneration, or what the safeguards are; I am not confident that such an explanation exists, but you are and that is why I am asking you. At the moment it seems to me that the Orthodox slap two different words on essentially the same thing. Yes, I agree that not all imagery is idolatry, but trust me I was not kissing the screen and so on while you were speaking. I was not praying to you, or through you, or trying to connect to God through you, or whatever. Does Christ's incarnation really transform our understanding of the rest of the physical world? Is it not still much as it was; a good creation but distinct from God, and fallen? Did not the material world always direct us towards the spiritual because God has made it, and God communicates to us through it? Has the whole material world become divine along with Jesus Christ the man? Would that not be a species of pantheism? But I think it is really hand-waving, not a clear argument.
The job of this CZcams channel is only to provide introductions to topics, and encouragement that further answers are there for the seeking. You have some good questions. They touch on iconography, veneration, incarnation theology, a sacramental worldview, and cultural understandings of simple things like kissing and affection. The branching discussion is too important and deep for an online comments section, and involves paradigm shifts for someone not used to the Orthodox approach.
*If* you feel that this is something you wish to understand, please visit an Orthodox Church and talk through all your questions with a priest.
When approached without anticipations but with openness, humility, and prayerfulness, the searching for answers is never a waste of time. Search not just with your mind, but also with your heart. May Christ be with you on the journey.
To know difference between Icon and Paintings
czcams.com/video/y3zHuMxfqYQ/video.html
The reformers were actually very well educated, founding many major universities in Europe and developing first schools for the people. I can’t imagine they were just overwhelmed by the icons the Roman Catholic Church made in these days. They must’ve good reasons for that, funded in theology and philosophy.
Oh yes, it was not a matter of education but of access. The issues were very much theological, and philosophical as you say, they just stemmed from the resources available to the reformers. The reformers studied in Catholic universities with Catholic materials, and did not have the same familiarity with Eastern writings regarding the image nor the Eastern understanding of the image. John Calvin for instance, one of the leading iconoclastic reformers (not all were against images) never mentions the 7th Council. He never once quotes or refers to St. John of Damascus, who by Calvin's time had been the main source of iconographic theology in the East for almost 800 years! If a man of Calvin's education does not even acknowledge John Damascene's work, it can only mean he did not know of its existence. And of course John Damascene's work, and the 7th council, had resulted in religious imagery vastly different to the ones accessible to the reformers. Access to the Eastern teaching may have resulted in a totally different argument post-reformation.
It’s Aristotle vs Plato
I don‘t think it‘s necessary to say that it‘s lack of access. I think those were very conscience decisions. But I‘m not as good in name dropping. The issue for the rcc was especially that this church lost all their power in europe after the reformers, Martin Luther, John Calvin, Menno Simons etc. wanted to correct the rcc and go back to some of the roots in the early church.
The pagans used 3Dstatues for idols. The Orthodox Church specifically uses 2D images, they're portraits of real people.
all fine but besides the topic we encounter god in the temple built without hands aka body, there is the living god not in buildings made of hands, this counts for us all, dont get me wrong, i like orthodox churches really from an standpoint of beauty and gathering people, but still the ecclesia(which really is in the scripture instead of a building) is the church, the group of believers is what counts, not stone buildings, god dwells in the body not in a building, icons are a connector to god, not god, people got possesed with buildings as if there is no ecclesia without marble floor and 400 pound of gold everywhere.
It's an image bottom line no excuses to be had for me
Consider though, that by being on CZcams, a website predicated entirely on supplying images, have you not ALREADY given excuses to certain types of images...
2nd commandment is about pagan gods
Amazing do you have Facebook or other social media please I would follow you God bless you
Amazing God bless you
Mathew 10:32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.