The Best Gundam Series (that isn't actually a Gundam series)
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- čas přidán 1. 07. 2024
- A video about the 1981 anime series Fang of the Sun: Dougram, directed by Ryousuke Takahashi. Now mostly known by Battletech fans. I also talk about the works of Italian director Gillo Pontecorvo.
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Thanks MaruDeCinco for providing the voice for the mecha quote. You can find her work at:
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00:00 Intro
06:39 Dougram's Politics Are Dense
12:52 Characters
24:40 Animation and Aesthetics
35:00 The Federation
38:50 Gillo Pontecorvo
45:52 Other Dougram Media
52:43 Dougram: Get Truth
56:49 My Favourite Episodes
59:55 Conclusion
There's something powerful seeing an old busted-up abandoned mech in the middle of a wasteland.
A reminder for what is to come even bigger would be seen as waste
It activates my monkey neurones
Wow, it seems very interesting, is it available in DVD?.
Only post-1970s Space operas are good though. Space operas before that era are way too unwatchable nowadays.
"Look upon my works and despair." Vibes
20th century japanese space operas are so incredible. Gundam, Dougram, Legend of the Galactic Heroes, Macross, SBY etc etc.
Isnt this Amonatrix or Zelurian wars
@@melchordavila979 I beg your pardon? I don't know what that is
@Char Aznable I have watched them and they were awoseme. The visuals and story were great but the score in the second movie was fantastic, Kenji Kawai has remained one of my favs ever since
I love all of Legend of the Galactic
no olvidar al genial Space Runaway Ideon
Dougram is also a fantastic Battletech anime. Not only were half of the original mechs licensed from the show, but the politics and grit of the setting really has a lot in common with Battletech. This could easily be set on any periphery world during the succession wars
I am stunned at just HOW MUCH is battletech like / adjacent: The clothing of earth nobility is steiner-like, the mechs are literally the Griffin and Battlemaster, hell the mindset even is similar of mechwarriors being independent folk serving deeply politically interested lords and ladies and their countries.
If you wanna be fully retcon-able, I could see this whole show being just a Steiner-Free Worlds border clash and it would fit perfectly.
@@kyokyodisaster4842 I wouldn't be surprised if they saw the anime and took some inspiration
BattleTech was written like this in the 80's ? Maybe i should of paid attention instead of drooling over RoboTech
Didnt know, but i know some good lawyers
@@MrUself battletech uses designs from robotech as well
Near the start of the video, I saw the Earth mecha and immediately thought "that kinda reminds me of a Griffon from Battletech". The round cockpit and the shoulder mounted missile pod immediately reminded me of it, only to learn about halfway through that Dougream's designs were actually licensed out to Battletech, that was cool. I knew some of Battletech's early designs came from mecha anime, but I had no idea that THIS was that anime.
Battletech early designs came from several anime, The Super Dimension Fortress Macross, Fang of the Sun Dougram and Crusher Joe. While you won't be seeing most of those in "modern" Battletech outside of fan mods (especially the VF inspired Land-Air Mechs) as the vast majority are part of the Unseen some remain tho heavily modified (Marauder & Warhammer for ex) .
And I saw a wolverine, a shadow hawk, various quad mechs, and a thunderbolt.
🦾 Tech is for technology, isnt technology tecnologícal. This seams more like mecanical battle, or anti tech battle
Battletechs themes are heavily influenced by Mecha anime from this era. Old fansubs on tape.
@@noodles2459 I feel like a lot of anime from this era is more "good vs bad" and it has some OP hero mech/pilot. BT is a little more political, nuanced, and gritty. VOTOMS kind of reminds me of it, though.
"This show is primarily based around a lot of guerilla combat and urban warfare, with these decentralized terrorist groups fighting against occupying forces... and it's just really hard to see why a 10 meter tall robot would be necessary in that setting"
On this episode of Tex Talks Battletech, we'll look at the General Motors BJ-1 Blackjack, proving that it's hard to resist your rightful rulers when you are on fire.
I loved how GM actually sent him a letter giving him cautionary praise to not meme on them please. Wasn't the Blackjack GMs "most OK-ist product"
@@crocidile90 ... oh shit for real?
@@ShiningRayde I dunno about "cautionary praise," but from what I saw they did send him a "heavily redacted" letter, like it had been gone over with a black marker ala old fashioned classified documents, that was sorta half-in-character as though they were responding as the company present in Battletech. It seemed to me like it was someone at the company being a good sport and sharing the laugh.
One of the things I find interesting about Dougram is how it has persisted in a particular section of merchandising despite never having a revival or reboot beyond the original. Dougram model kits continue to be made, and the Dougram and Roundfacer have been released as high-end figures in Bandai's Hi-Metal R line, and much cheaper Revoltech figures. I suspect that their persistence as model kits is in part due to the series turning toward a more 'real world' feel, compared to Gundam. That probably got the interest of armor modelers who would traditionally do historical kits, like tanks and planes, but would take that aesthetic and apply it toward a Dougram kit. It seems like it captured the imagination of some people who are influential in the model kit industry today, who have helped to keep the series alive, at least in the model kit market.
Very interesting, yeah. I suppose that the franchise initially finding longevity through boardgames might also have helped in it becoming more of a modelling/wargame entity than an anime one.
While there were two Dougram branded board games, and a third Votoms game released around the same core gameplay, those were mostly kid-oriented games.
Battletech did not have as much penetration in Japan. FASA attempted to do a Japanese edition of Battletech, and commissioned a redesign of the visual elements of the game by Studio Nue, most notably the mechs and tanks, for the release. If you look around online, you can see bits of it. It's definitely interesting to see how the mechs were reimagined. The front cover shows the reimagined Shadowhawk (aka Dougram) with its armaments unloaded.
But Dougram model kit releases have probably benefitted from a higher international interest due to Battletech. The original kits made it to the US under the Revell Robotech brand as large kits, and as small kits through Twentieth Century Imports as Battletech expansions for use with the game. The Revell Robotech line had a two issue DC comics tie-in. Something else that's interesting to look up, though it has no resemblance to the original material other than the mech designs.
It's a testament to the mechanical design simply being some of the greatest of all time.
BattleTech fan reporting. Yep, you kinda nailed this one. It deserves way more love.
Battletech (name itself is so lame) is a typical shitty american copy of Japanese anime designs.🤣
Not even justice, I want to get truth!
That's a raw line.
The science fiction military anime that went in so hard it practically created Battletech (not just the designs, but the focus on politics and logistics, plus people being shit at one another). If any "obscure" anime series deserved a lovingly crafted modern remake or sequel, it is FotS.
Yes!! Many, many comments here about certain mech designs from this series influencing the BattleTech cannon (well, OK literally just licenced/copy and pasted.)
Great point about the over arching political intrigue element of Fang of the Sun Dougram, Influencing the very large succession war lore of the BattleTech, cannot be understated.
Dougram is real?
I don't think it's well known, but when Dougram was first released in Japan there was a fairly complex looking military game based off it. I discovered it from it's Dualmagazine inserts, which had detailed maps and both mecha and character game tiles. It's all in Japanese so I can't read it but seemed to be a turn based stratgy game with moving the tiles on grided paper game maps.
I was just thinking thats the perfect show for people who want more of the short-lived Battletech show.
so what’s the series?
It’s funny how you mention Billy and the need to include a kid as a major good character in the story, admittedly while I wasn’t too bothered by the apparent “plot armor” most of the Fang of the Sun crew gets, it was pretty hysterical when:
*SPOILERS*
In the last episode/final battle, some explosions start happening in the vicinity of Billy, and everyone is suspecting he got killed or suffered major wounds, but all that happened was him crying over scraping his knee LOL
Lmao yes.
I've been on a "Sunrise Real Robot" anime kick lately and was looking into this series after I finish the Layzner OVAs. I just bought the Max Factory model kit of the Dougram "Get Truth" version.
I have to say thank you for this thoughtful analysis of an anime that captivated me as an 80's teen in the USA where we never really got a localized or dubbed version of this underrated series. My introduction, as a kid, was via the US release of Takara's diecast metal figures and vehicle models which briefly hit the shelves of select toy stores. I managed to get a handful, including the excellent 10+ inch Dougram figure itself, as well as some nicely detailed miniatures of the Round-facer, Bushmaster, etc. The realism and fidelity of these models made them prizes of my collection and remain so to date. A couple of decades later they were re-issued and all obtained all of the ones I'd pined for as a kid. Eventually, I got to actually watch the series, in subtitled form, online. I wasn't sure what to expect, but found it very mature and gritty, with sophisticated writing that appealed to me more than it may have, had I seen it in period. I guess it was a long and round-about journey from my teenage obsession with the toys... I absolutely agree it deserves to be remembered and perhaps revisited, if done right. Cheers to that!
I hope you cover VOTOMS Im so sad about how its still so obscure.
I'm going to come back to this when I finish the show because you sold it really well - I'm glad I stumbled upon your channel! And I hope the 2023 is treating you well!
Ahhh, I'm really glad it made you want to watch the show! Very much made the video hoping it would attract more people to the series.
I greatly appreciate when a work of speculative fiction attempts to address how their States/Factions obtain and maintain legitimacy regardless of how objectionable their actions may be. Many a fictional universe just ignores public perception or the role of journalism in conflicts, focusing predominantly on the more exciting lives of the combatants themselves. I suppose it's no surpise that Takahashi would make FLAG, which is unique in its perspective of near-future mecha warfare from the perspective of a photo-journalist.
I really dig the idea of documentary style mecha anime as well, even if Sunrise didn't really commit to the concept with Dougram's compilation movie. Watching something like Gundam, even if the world is intentionally morally grey where neither faction is really "good" we're still inclined to most sympathize wth the viewpoint character. A narrative using a style that's more of an objective third party documenting events would be an interesting way around that kind of implicit bias.
Legend of the Galactic Heroes is like that. Albiet no mechs but Armored suits.
With a lot of sci-fi like this usually being filled with German aesthetics and WWII analogies, I always wondered how a series more focused on Cold War guerilla warfare and the politics of postcolonial struggle and economic imperialism would look like. To me Dougram seems at least partially inspired by Central American civil wars going on around the time
It also reflects French dominance of its former colonies ever since they acquired "independence". Check who prints their money and the amount of "interventions" France did on said colonies since 1960.
i really loved gundam ms 08th team because the setting and strategies reminded me of the vietnam war
@@edgarego5813 Then you will love the 2nd Patlabor film...it's terrifying.
me clicking on this video: "why is this mostly known by battletech fans.........oh hey, a Griffin"
Right when you described the journalist I was like “This is anime Matt Christman.” Well done.
I was just thinking that, and then he puts Matt up on the screen and I cackled
That journalist guy does scream Matt Christman, i thought so the second you started covering him and when you actually said it i freaked out haha
Every time I read one of these comments I further regret not putting in my initially planned bit of lip syncing some of his mouth flaps to a Cush vlog.
I had never heard of this show, or your channel tbh, but the way you talked about Dougram with such passion and excitement a) convinced me to track down the full series and watch it, but b) definitely convinced me to follow your channel. Super excited to check out more of your stuff.
Gotta love Daisy. Stays strong and pure throughout the series, and her love for Crinn never wavers. If this was a Gundam show, she wouldve been broken and turned into a cyber-newtype by the end.
Also someone plz translate Get Truth!
Nah, if it was a Gundam Show she would have been killed by an errant shell casing fracturing her skull in a scene at some point or killed off in some other dramatic collateral damage scene. Or killed in a hostage rescue gone wrong.
LoGH is my favorite anime, so as soon as you said "two episode arc about farming land reform" I was sold.
As a diehard Evangelion fan, LoGH holds a sacred 2nd place when it comes to Human Condition and brutality.
"Dry and dense" stung on a personal level...
LoGH is "moist and lavish"...I cried almost every 4 episodes, ESPECIALLY if you rewatch it and have to accept what happens to all those nameless retail worker-level soldiers, activists, artists, and rebels, who play out their cruel fates, just to uphold the honour and dignity of some backwoods colony, or noble, or just their orphaned siblings from previous wars...
Even their enemies saluted their frozen corpses...
"You're gonna carry that weight."
Your bag of knowledge never ceases to amaze me. Had never even heard of this one
Partially a result of neglecting a lot of modern stuff ^^;
Glad you made this awesome video. I just finished this show last month and have been since then searching for content on it only to not find much
First of all I was literally just looking at your channel wishing you would upload a new video
As a Battletech fan I saw it as some kind of rite of passage to go back and watch the Series where it got its Mechs from and affected the franchise (Fuck Harmony Gold). After only seeing the first few episodes I can clearly see that even if it may not be a direct inspiration for all of the story Dougram feels like a Battletech Anime that we never got. (Minus the game of thrones in space aspect such as the neo-fudalism, chivalry ) and the like It really did make me think about the early books in the Gray Death Saga, particularly 'Mercenary Star' where you have a scrappy independence force fighting for their freedom whilst the oppressive government leverages a puppet group to try and maintain power and in the end the 'independence' of the planet only really sees become part of another great empire and with the benefit of foresight of the franchise knowing that eventually it become conquered by the invading clans. Dougram gives me that same gritty, grey on grey perspective of war as well as the backroom dealings and serious outlook on politics that makes it a lot more believable. Whilst I haven't completed the series it does feel like this is part of a greater universe and how events on this planet may reverberate across Earth and its other colonies. Your video has just shown that I'm not the only one who thinks like this and I can't wait to continue with the rest of this great series.
Also if you enjoy Dougram then BT move will be right up your alley! Can't wait to see more from you.
This comment *really* makes me want to get into Battletech. Thanks for the kind words!
@@pyramidinu9449 You would not be disappointed if you like this kind of thing...EDIT: I had spoilers here and just took them out. Figured maybe you would not want certain things spoiled, maybe. Hope you didn't see them already if so.
@@pyramidinu9449 I've only watched the start, but the line about 'dry science fiction that explores everything as historically as possible' is basically Battletech in a nutshell. Tex Talks Battletech is the epitome of this and I highly recommend it.
@@pyramidinu9449 Way late to the party, but I absolutely love this channel's deep diving into obscure mecha series.
Shameless self promotion. I'm a fan animator for Battletech/Mechwarrior (Mechwarrior Bulldogs and Frihet: A Mechwarrior film), and it's so so neat to see someone really digging into this genre from a more literary and artistic analysis perspective.
Your recent video on Spooky Mecha hit the nail on the head for how I wanted to animate my mechs (for Frihet especially). Like, I literally referred to the animation style as "terrifying armored kaiju", directly in line with gundam hathaway.
Absolutely fantastic work, bud.
Dougram is indeed a classic. The story is effectively timeless, even if the visuals are a bit dated. While other anime like most of Gundam have actively repelled me, this one had me coming back for more. Funny enough, it was the resurgence of Battletech (a video with Thunderhead Studio, to be specific) that introduced me to it. I happily painted my SHD-2H Shadow Hawk in Dougram colors, with a tiny blond guy in a blue suit painted (flattened) in what would have been a previous footfall of the mech. Thanks for the deeper look.
Great video, glad to see another person who knows of this show's existence. Although I have never watched too much of it, this video has really inspired me to go back and watch it. I will say, you should have mentioned the opening part of the first episode. Where the Dougram is weathered and rusted, with the narration saying "The wolf, the lion is dead" is so badass.
The reason why opposing mech models were not used in the Gundam universe is because both sides of the conflict were industrial powers with standing armies which have logistics to worry about. In the case of Dougram, we see a guerilla army which has no comparable funds or resources to rely on and historically such forces have often relied on captured enemy equipment.
Seriously, your channel is criminally underratted. Your stuff is great.
This is so exactly what I want out of mecha I'm upset I haven't heard of it before. Thank you for this video, watching this soon as I can make the time.
Randomly stumbled upon your content. Well done, and cannot wait to see what else you put out.
This sounds like it's right up my alley. Thanks for the recommendation!
Fabulous. This sounds like everything I've been wanting in a series right now. Politics and giant robots, baybee.
Oh yeah I think you'd love it.
As a big fan of 80s mecha anime finding this channel has been a delight. Continue the great work!
As a Mechwarrior fan, I immediately noticed the resemblance of Roundface and Blockhead to their Battletech counterparts, the Griffin and Wolverine.
The Dougram even looks like a Shadow Hawk.
It's interesting to see where those designs originated.
I'm so excited to watch this video, sharing it with all my mecha fan friends.
I haven't watched the video yet, but I am always happy to see people giving Dougram more love.
Love to love like the old ones
Damn good video. Dougram is my 3rd fav anime, and I'm so happy there's at least 1 video about it and its got 300k+ views.
The greatest video I've ever watched regarding Dougram. Words cannot describe how impressed I am with this review.
I think you left out Kanda Takeyuki the co-director on purpose of saving time, but I have high hopes of you going over him as well.
They have nailed the late 70s mid 80s European CDU Gladio look for the earth politicians from what I can see. Which is incredible.
Oh, so that's why the mech looked familiar...
I've been waiting for ages for someone to make a video essay about this show.
always appreciate old mecha anime getting love. i feel like we're such a small group nowadays lol. great video!
Good job. I've always liked the dougram design ❤
This was a really well thoughtout and done view of the show. This is probably my favourite mecha show. It shows its age at times with the animation. But its so well written. Id put it on par with shows like Rose of Versailles and Legend of the Galatic Heroes. It deserves more attention in the mecha community.
I love your content. So insightful!
Aw thanks, I appreciate that!
Thank you for giving a shout out to Burn! Battle of Algiers is Pontecorvo's masterpiece but Burn! is my favorite. Such beautiful sweeping epicness with potted speeches on political economy just get me.
Legit think it's one of my favourite films now. I was stunned. Glad to hear it's appreciated.
27:29 That's more of a Akira Kurosawa move called cut on action. So far throughout the video you can see lots of hits of of Kurosawa's style.
Great summary. While from the USA, I grew up in South East Asia as a kid in the 1980s and was on the front row for a lot of the series that came out then. I am primarily a model builder, and Dougram kits have been some of my favorite models of all time. It’s amazing it’s never gotten a reboot.
I may have to check this classic anime out. I have seen some model kits of it at the local hobby store next to the Gundam kits. Good video.
In the 1980s, it was realistic to show characters chain-smoking their way through a conversation.
Super neat video. I really rely on these sorts of retrospectives when it comes to some of the more Vintage Mecha shows. I just dont have that kind of time or attention span I can throw at most of these, let alone when most don't have easy access anymore or even the option for English Dubs!
I was just about wondering "Well heres another video that wont even touch on the battletech stuff" and then RIGHT at the end there you noted how most people coming back are being pulled in from its relation to Battletech and MechWarrior! So glad to see its at least being recognized. I'd actually really love to see someone try and tackle Battletech and all its influences from old Mecha, its shared Designs and how its one of the very few SciFi properties really seeming to still carry this Torch around of high politics and big robots. Most Battletech content on CZcams is more focused on its own lore, the video games or the tabletop and less so its history and splash here in the States or the waves it sent back and forth between east and west Mech and Mecha content. If you'd ever want some assistance or a crash course I'd love to help in anyway I can!
Funny you mention that, I was also really surprised while researching that there was no basic linear history of the game on CZcams. I couldn't even find a lot of basic information - like why the Dougram designs stopped being used (beyond nebulous rights issues), and if they even were still entirely not used.
Personally, I wouldn't be the person to make that video, as I really have no familiarity with the franchise. But if you made one like that I'd definitely watch it.
Oh wow i watched a lot Gundam like shows since the 80's and never seen this one before. Nice find.
Thanks for the video.
I like the theme and model kits of the dougram series but never watched the show, might give it a go when I have some free time 😊
There are so many pieces of nostalgic media, ranging in many forms, that gives me that anxiety, aswell. keep sharing under rated media.
Thanks for the recommendation! I loved LoGH and recently finished OG Gundam. This show sounds right up my alley.
I'm coming back to this video to finally leave a comment, because I really enjoyed your synopsis and views, and Dougram has been on my list for so long now, but the episode count always made it difficult for me to start somehow. The most I see of Dougram are the model kits, as I've seen classic and newer ones for years. I always wondered if the designs were also made with the toy market in mind or not? It sounds like they had pretty free reign with the design. I love the imagery of decaying mecha, I don't know why, but it invokes so many feelings, similar to abandoned ghost towns. Like humanity was here, did great things, and then really fucked up.
At some point I need to watch this show for myself, and I just really appreciate your video on it, great work!
I really believe that the best part of this video is during the discussion of the rebelion characters when you put Justi-phi’s from Kamen Rider 555 in the background.
It's important to know that Fang of the Sun Dougram is a pain in the ass to get a hold of...
But I did find a decent playlist of it here on CZcams. The guy re-uploaded it at one point after it got taken down. It does have all 75 episodes.
Also, if you want a decent representation in fiction of using guerilla tactics against a larger mechanized force, the Gray Death Trilogy from Battletech is available in both Kindle and Audible format, and they're great. It follows a young mercenary captain's son being orphaned and stranded on a backwater world, having to organize a rebellion and fight back against one of the royal houses of the Inner Sphere, in order to get word to the house his father's unit had been serving. While the first book, Decision at Thunder Rift, is very good, its immediate sequel, Mercenary Star, is even better. Watching this newly formed mercenary unit take on their first big job, and almost immediately find themselves on the back foot again, is mesmerizing.
I was not expecting to stumble across an hour long video essay on Dougram. What a nice surprise
Cannot believe Dougram predicted Christman so exactly
Regarding the animation; I think it's true that the show did get better as time went on, but the difference isn't nearly as vast the episode-by-episode fluctuations. I don't think this really had anything to do with a change in resources, as the drawing directors and their associated studios (the most important for drawing quality) were set at the beginning of the show, and stayed the same for the whole show, and continued as such basically all the way through votoms as well. I think it's more likely that the animators were just developing as the show went on.
So the basic way Dougram worked (and most other contemporary anime) was that the show basically has six drawing directors, who always work with the same animators. Each drawing director and associated animation studio would work be assigned to one of the next six episodes, and would each finish their episodes in sequence, one after the other, so the fluctuation in drawing quality is actually very predictable. The studio that handled the episodes where the characters are strangely muscular was Nakamura Pro, and these episodes had Saijou Akira as a drawing director, each of them are about 6 episodes apart, and take up about one sixth of the show. The episodes that you referred to as having "OVA quality" were by Anime R, who's associated drawing director was Taniguchi Moriyasu, those episodes include the minefield one, the one where Crinn is attacked in the hangar during a rainstorm, and the episode where Lecoque shoots down Von Stein in the helicopter, with Lecoque's hair getting swept up and unkempt by the wind. I think all of those are stand-out episodes.
I also don't think there was a lot of put into the compilation film. It was released as a double feature along with Xabungle, and Xabungle's feels about as pointless as well. I don't think later shows were kept from recieving film compilations due to a lack of quality, but I think it's more likely that it was a simple policy change on sunrise's part in how re-edited compilation versions of their anime would be released, as it was right around this time that OVA would become a viable market, and every narrative-focused sunrise anime would recieve a compilation OVA, as is the case with Dunbine, L-gaim, Votoms, Galient, Layzner, and Vifam.
Wow, very insightful comment. Thanks. Do you recommend any resources for this kind of info?
@@pyramidinu9449 The credits themselves are obviously always going to be the most reliable and comprehensive, but it can be a bit of a pain identifying the kanji if you're not used to it. I use Japanese Wikipedia a lot, because if there's anywhere online that has a complete, episode-by-episode listing of the scriptwriters, storyboard artists, episode directors, and drawing directors for an anime, it'll be on Japanese Wikipedia. It seems like youtube won't let me comment with Japanese text, but the part of the page that'll have the episode list is labelled with "all episodes list" - spelled "ri-su-to" in katakana.
These are the production positions most worth knowing:
kyakuhon - scriptwriter
e conte - storyboard
enshutsu - episode director
sakuga kantoku - drawing director
Anidb is also useful too for an English language database, but it commonly has incomplete staff lists. The Sakuga Atwiki is the best resource for tracking the work of on individual animator or drawing director, and will occasionally specify which scenes they drew in the case of animators. Sakuga Atwiki also has a page with pretty in-depth explanations of the history and staff employed at prominent studios. The Seesaawiki anime staff database is the best for a comprehensive overview of every staff member on a single anime in raw text, including key animators, inbetween animators, photography staff, production assistants, background artists, etc. Seesaawiki doesn't have every show, and it's likely it never will just because of how difficult it would be to catalogue all that information, but it's a great resource for the shows it does have.
I'm incredibly grateful for your putting in the work to create a documentary on this show. Not because I needed my own attention drawn to the cartoon -- it's my favorite anime -- but for the reason you describe in this video, the show languishing in the desert like the iconic image of the eponymous robot. You've done a fantastic job.
Because I feel so passionately about the show, I have a couple nitpicky comments, but just take them as the thoughts of someone who never would have put in the work to make the documentary you made, and so any quibbles I have are expressed with full respect for your righteous, badass achievement.
(Hopefully thought-provoking and not annoying) nitpicks begin... now!
1) I found myself wishing you would have expressed gratitude to X Nebula Fansubs, without whom none of us gaijin would have been able to appreciate the subtle writing of this show. According to a forum discussion I see about X Nebula on the net right now, it was a one-man fansub group who worked for years without pay and for no reward beyond word-of-mouth appreciation for an internet alias. This person single-handedly bridged the cultural gap which otherwise would have never allowed the ideas of the show to be shared beyond Japan. If this translation had been undertaken by someone less skillful or someone who might have given up halfway through the project, we would have been fucked. The English speaking world of anime fans owes this person a very large debt.
2) I loved the detour you took into exploring "Burn," a film I had never heard of, by the director of "Battle of Algiers." This is related, however, to a minor criticism I would make of your praise for "Fang of the Sun." You, like most of us, have had the way we see film shaped by the dominance of "auteur theory" which envisions film storytelling as an artform which originates in the imagination of visionary, singular film directors (or close-knit duos like the Coens and Wachowskis). Something "Fang of the Sun Dougram," "Battle of Algiers," and "Burn" all have in common, however, is that they were all co-created with writers who were not the directors. "Battle of Algiers" and "Burn" didn't just come from the mind of Gillo Pontecorvo, the scripts of both were co-written with Franco Solinas.
In the case of "Fang of the Sun Dougram," looking at the credits on AnimeNewsNetwork, I see that the show was co-directed by Takeyuki Kanda and that someone named Hiroyuki Hoshiyama was credited with writing 31 episodes, someone named Yūji Watanabe wrote 24 episodes, and Sukehiro Tomita wrote 17. (There were a couple other names as well with smaller episode counts.) While it's understandable as shorthand to credit this show to the mind of Ryousuke Takahashi, where this leads to problems is when viewers then follow Takahashi to his other projects looking for more from the same voice and find things that aren't fully coming from the same creative source.
The best example I can give of this is when everyone got hyped for finally getting an "Alien" sequel from the visionary "creator" of the original film, Ridley Scott, but then got subjected to the shit-heap "Prometheus" and were left wondering what happened. What happened is that "Alien" was the vision of its writers Dan O'Bannon (and the connections of "Alien" to his previous film "Dark Star" are very clear if you watch it) and Ronald Shusett (along with important contributions by Walter Hill and David Giler). They dreamed up the story, characters and world before Ridley Scott was ever involved, personally bringing on artists like H.R. Giger and Moebius, with whom they had pre-existing creative relationships, to create the world of the film. Ridley Scott was hired by the studio to direct the film and greatly contributed to its excellence, but there was no way a sequel coming from him was going to evoke the spirit of the original.
I bring this up because, while I agree with you that "VOTOMS" had a more cohesive visual language for its mechs and had a lot of great ideas, I found the story much less satisfying than "Fang of the Sun Dougram" and have a feeling that what we are missing are some of those co-creators who didn't come along to the next project. It seems to me that these writers poured a lot of passion into the show and there is no way that their imaginations didn't contribute greatly to what made this a good story.
3) I was surprised to hear you had mixed feelings about the ending. To me, this is a huge part of what I loved about the story and what makes this one so unique to me. As a progressive person, I have seen so many hope-inspiring political movements end up like the one in this story does, and we almost never see stories end like this. Sometimes victory just evaporates due to it just taking too long, due to internal conflicts destroying a perfect shot for success.
Anyway, like I said at the beginning, you have a huge amount of respect from me for completing this documentary and doing the great job you did. Hope my minor quibbles didn't come off as disrespectful or know-it-all. This video just touched on things I don't get a lot of chances to talk about, and this comment is the result. Thank you for the video!
Hey! Your comments absolutely don't come across as disrespectful or know-it-all, they're very insightful and additive. I'll just respond to these 1 by 1.
1) You're completely right about X-Nebula. This is absolutely something that could/should have been a segment. And tbh, I did briefly consider it, but it was one of the many elements that kinda got pushed away as the project ballooned. But yeah, that translation is a really pretty amazing act of fan conservation, honestly. Even choosing a show like Dougram is such an impressive thing for that translator to have done. I definitely think a video exploring both how that came about, but also what it represented in early 2010s mecha culture, would be very cool. You could always make one. :P
2) I think these points are fair. Takahashi is the easiest figure for me to filter the show through, both because that's where the most primary information in English comes from (his interviews), and because I have a small personal connection, having been able to briefly meet him. I'm also, tbh, quite unrelentingly an auteurist, even with the full knowledge that's often not applicable to film, and probably basically never applicable to a Sunrise mecha series (Sunrise being a studio known for giving more power to producers than other studios - and producing long series with a lot of moving parts requiring a lot of creative input). But, auteurism is the language I grew up in my interaction with film. I read Roger Ebert every week as a kid, was never a big Kael Stan, and enjoy talking about movies as part of a larger filmography. It's kinda just where I'm at. Also, while there are factual information in my videos, I actually see them more as little diaries of my thoughts and hot-takes. They absolutely aren't meant to be academic or summative - but I gotta say, I've not really found a way to make this approach completely clear in my stuff. I am not, at the end of the day, an expert on any of these subjects. Just someone with a lot of hot takes who enjoys compiling them into broad videos.
I do share your feelings about screenwriters being ignored. In my Gasaraki video, I talked a little about the screenwriter - but that was easier because there was such a clear story there (it was his only screenwriting role - all his other credits are purely setting research - and that showed in Gasaraki's intense dry structure. More and more, btw, Gasaraki seems to me like a spiritual continuation of Dougram - but with a slightly post-Eva sensibility with the organic mechs and secret occult societies). Also, I agree re: Votoms.
3) Yeah, don't pay too much mind to my emotionally raw response to the ending haha. It's a masterpiece, through and through. I might do a very small video on my other channel, or on my Patreon or something idk, where I just ramble about all the things I've been thinking about in the last 5 episodes. A lot of little moments I keep replaying. I've also been considering maybe doing a podcast on it. If that's something you might be interested in collaborating on, my twitter @ is the same my CZcams handle.
I watch this whole thing and you just throw a Gasaraki reference I'm at the 46 minute mark. Okay fam, I see you, I guess we're gonna do a deep dive on your content now. GJ team, way to earn a viewer.
It's really bizarre seeing a mecha anime that looks like a low budget British television drama from the mid 80s/early 90s.
Would be really interesting to see it reimagined in live action.
You had me at "Andor" and "land reform," Comrade.
Mecha has really become a small niche.
I think mecha animations in the future will most likely be crowdfunded. We already have some on YT.
Yeah but those are ass. Gundam Carrie’s the torch
well you earned my subscription with your thoughtfull take
That Battle Of Algiers side quest made me so happy!
This was nice, a lovingly made video with an evidently ardent passion for the show. I just wish you hadn't brushed over Takeyuki Kanda's involvement, as his directing sensibilities are all over the show.
I happened to stumble upon this video thanks to the algorithm, and eventually ended up watching a bunch of your other videos too. I found them really interesting. You have more of a, for lack of a better term, "liberal arts brain" than I do for this sort of stuff; you come at these shows from a very different perspective than I do, which I find really fascinating.
I tried watching Dougram several years ago, but ended up losing interest partway through (I think around episode 20 or so?). It's one of those shows I feel like I should give another shot at some point, but it's hard for me to justify setting aside time for a 70+ episode series when I've got other stuff on my to-watch list.
The idea of Ohtagaki writing a Dougram manga honestly sounds really cool. I was kind of put off by Thunderbolt (I think it has some neat ideas, but the tone/presentation didn't quite work for me), but Dougram sounds like it would fit much better with the artist's style.
As for a more meaningful point though, I feel (while not quite anxiety) the same kind of sadness at how overlooked Dougram is in part, I really wish it had a remastered, localized release I could support, or even just a standard def BluRay at the very least, but when I was able to sit down and watch the whole thing, I felt such an immense gratification that I dug up such an incredible series from the obscurities of anime and even mecha in part. Mecha junkies talk about the classic staples of stuff like GaoGaiGar, Big O, Giant Robo OVA, Patlabor, Dunbine, Votoms, Dancougar, Dragonar, etc (not counting more obvious ones), but a lot of these frankly didn’t click with me as immensely as this series did, so the fact that it is still pretty overlooked even in those niche circles is such a shame to me, but plumbing through the far reaches of mecha’s history and finding true greats like this is what makes the act of exploring these obscurities and histories so fun and rewarding. Just goes to show there’s some high quality works that fell to the wayside waiting to be rediscovered and how exciting it is to dig and find them, I hope Dougram gets more love someday.
As for the series ending, honestly, maybe I’m less familiar with the political climate at the time which-while maybe more daring and progressive in some ways-maybe had to work around having a successful revolution happen for an anime regularly airing on proper television syndication. Nevertheless, I feel the decline of the Deloyeran group’s grasp on power and its defining ideology faltering due to some unfortunate circumstances and the concessions to that one more moderate, centrist representative who took the main guy’s place (seriously, the way Lecoque uses his clever rhetoric to make the Federation and his beliefs look like sympathetic victims who would face consequence with their independence to eat away at that weaker willed politician was just brilliant, of course you can’t have a revolution without inconveniencing someone, but Lecoque was able to twist the narrative so well to convince others of his BS) was all done superbly with such a detailed, organic progression. The fact that the series frames it as an almost tragedy with its bittersweetness as well goes to show how much of its heart is still in the cause I think, just that it unfortunately faced setbacks. It worked a lot better for me than how Gundam: Iron Blooded Orphans ends with a similar, if not worse “failure” and tries to frame it tonally almost like an outright happy ending barring a few details, so it just made me think that Dougram was IBO done right in a way, and it precedes it by several decades.
We also happened to pick up the same stretch where Dougram gets even greater, it was already a tremendous show, but those last 15 episodes take it to a whole other level, there’s a noticeable enrichment of the drama and desperation, so fantastic, and the poetic justice with Lecoque was perfect. So good.
Wow. So well put. Couldn't agree more. And yeah, the writing with Lecoque and Carmel was just outstanding. One moment in particular really leaps out to me, but I couldn't talk about it in the video without heavy spoilers.
It's when Carmel, after the coup, is complaining about how bad the deal he's getting with Lecoque is. And one of Carmel's advisors, who was probably the most aggressive in helping getting Carmel into power, says something along the lines of, 'but it was never about that right? It was about making sure you were the head honcho when all this is done?' And Carmel, in a kind of pitying tone, says something along the lines of 'no, I thought this was genuinely the right thing'. His advisor looks at him as if to say, 'Oh no. You're an idiot. You were an idiot this whole time. We're so boned.'
Would you ever be interested in doing a podcast talking about those last 15 episodes? My @ on twitter is Pyramidinu if you ever wanna discuss it.
@@pyramidinu9449 I think that would be cool! It’s been a few years since I watched, so I’d definitely have to take a refresher, but that sounds like fun! I didn’t know you had a new Twitter but I imagine it helps keeps things tidier and helps with tying it in with your channel and everything, I’ll follow that one and try to touch base with ya when I am more available!
Justi FAIZ. 😎👍🏿
Also, the Dougram is very clearly an influence on the design for the valkyries mechs like razangriff and Randgrith of SRW OG.
Regarding, gundam : why doesn't the Federation use Captured Zeon mecha and equipment?
Short answer: they do, it just that the main series don't focus on those units. In fact some of the best Aces the Federation had started out in captured Zukus.
Long answer: the Federation was on the defensive for most of the war, and when they went on the offensive, the GM was better than the Zeonic grunts mechs. There also the fact that due to Zeon wonder weapons plans, made it that even Zeon had trouble repairing them, to the point that late in the OYW Zeon start to redesign their mechs to use common parts.
Saw this years ago. It's a great series. Must watch for fans of 80s anime
I loved this, can you do a video on Legend of The Galactic Heroes, next time?
I'm so glad that I'm not the only one that thought that Dick Lertoff was visualy and personality-wise a dead ringer for Matt Christman.
great video
I watched all of Dougram this last year and I gotta say it is one of the best animes I've seen and I've been watching them for 40 years. I particularly liked how the ending wasn't tied up as neatly as we expected, but was still satisfying in a way. Top notch, 9/10.
As a battletech fan and Mecha anime fan thanks for making this video
Hey Pyramid, great new video, though I'm only ten minutes into it. Hearing you mention your love of dry, granular political sci-fi, I have to ask if you've gotten around to Legend of the Galactic Heroes, the 110 episode OVA version. I originally got into U.C (specifically Tomino) Gundam and subsequently the entire mecha genre because I wanted something to scratch the LOGH itch, and given your description of Dougram I think it's literally perfect for me, so will definitely be watching.
edit: and now I see if I'd watched a few minutes more I'd have the answer to my question :P
Big LOGH fan. I've also heard Crest of the Stars is good for scratching that itch.
A bit old for me but I loved Gasaraki and Blue Gender (also created by Ryousuke Takahashi)
Big fan of those too. Blue Gender especially, weirdly underrated series.
@@pyramidinu9449 I have a preference for Gasaraki but Blue Gender is amazing too. 2 of my top20
Hoping for a LOGH or Votoms video someday, but I could watch a video on anything if it's written this well
Also this is a 1080p rip posted on yt. If anyone wants to watch a better quality version.
I really liked the ending personally, loved the way the denial of a grand climactic battle is payed off with the cathartic destruction of the arms of the fangs of the sun, Crinn's ending monologue has really stuck with me.
also someone needs to translate Get Truth
Good stuff.
I'm a Battletech (and Gundam) fan and I had NO idea this existed!
@sablephoenix Instantly recognized the Griffin and Wolverine.
I know of the...well..lol the "actual" Battletech cartoon 🤣
But Dougram? No! I never knew, even as an anime/mecha lover I'm suprised I never heard of it.
This video came up around the same time I started watching the series, and now I've finished it. What a timing.
You finished Dougram in 9 days?!
@@pyramidinu9449 Yeah I'm on a break with a lot of free time so I've been watching it.
@@IMISSMYNAME Genuinely impressive.
This series kinda reminds me of Dallos. Also a lot of my favorite BattleMechs are from this. The Griffin Shadow hawk and Wolverine. ah you covered that.
49:27 I dip into that approach at time with my devnart posts as a way to flesh out the word in Minisodes to have extra material while I work on my books... So, it can work The office/parks and recreation style it's just getting the voice actors back. And you may get away with no new animation just the interview and narrator going over the TV show footage like a CZcamsr would...
Instantly going onto the watch list.
01:15 Right out the gate, one of Battletech's "Unseen," aka the Shadow Hawk.
05:23 That Goliath is getting absolutely reamed
28:07 That there is a Battlemaster, I believe.
This is such a great sales pitch for the show, I think it’s gonna go on my watch list right between Votoms and Gundam X
And here I was thinking that the best Gundam series that isn't actually a Gundam series (or even a mecha series, or anime for that matter...) was The Expanse. Great video though, and Dougram and Ryousuke Takahashi's works in general are great!
Had to click when I saw the thumbnail. Great stuff. The ending of your video is really relatable; When I finally saw the serie last year it was like a revelation. I could see how that forgotten gem is foundational to a lot of the shit I loved that came later (and battletech of course). It single-handedly gave me back a passion for animation I had lost after 15 years of grind at studios (despite looking so fucking bad)... But... I must ask... Were you mispronouncing LeCoque's name on purpose not to trigger the censor or something? Or was it a keikaku joke? Or both? Neither?
I used to have the two toys of the main robots. They were about 6 inches tall. They had metal chassis / skeletons with removable armor. I did go onto playing Battle Tech too.
Battletech fan here; I remember some of these mecha by other names. The Wolverine, Shadow hawk and the Griffin.
You sold me on this. Unfortunately, I don't have time to go through this series
It's all on CZcams. At 75 episodes, it's no shame to take your sweet time once a day to watch an episode if you would like to try it. Two and a half months and one episode a day and you'll have seen the whole thing.
lol when I saw the reporter guy I was immediately like THAT’S MATT CHRISTMAN.
Thanks to the size and the design language, some of this shows mechs almost feel like they could fit into the military side of Patlabor. Fighting alongside the Helldiver or Atlas.