RUGBY in CRISIS...and HOW TO FIX IT!
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- čas přidán 8. 05. 2023
- There's SO many issues in rugby right now. Many of them financial. But why exactly? What are the forces working to limit how great rugby can be? And, more importantly, what can be done! I have a few thoughts. I'll lay out the issues and offer some solutions which will involve talking about our egg shaped ball cousins from NFL and from Rugby League! Please get stuck into the comments, leave your thoughts and share the video.
- Sport
As an American and outsider to rugby I have to say, its important to not lose the identity of your sport while trying to grow it. Yes the NFL is very smart and they've made a bunch of decisions that have resulted in the success they see today, but at the same time this doesn't take into account college football. The NFL outside a handful of the original teams, a corporate, lifeless product with a lot of glitz and glamor but lacking history/passion etc. College football is the spiritual home of the sport and where all of the traditions and passion lies in American Football, yes its not as big but in many places its significantly more popular than the NFL. I hope that in the future if rugby realigns and streamlines itself that it is still somehow able to preserve its history and tradition like we have
Thanks for that - I have often wondered why College football is so big, now that makes sense. Football (soccer) in Europe has somehow managed to retain the history and passion despite the commercial era and corporate ownership, but I have watched other sports try to re-invent themselves and create teams with nicknames, logos, and a narrative that feel a bit artificial (Cricket's the 100, and even the early days of Super 12 Rugby down under). I guess these things take time to become meaningful identities whether they are created or happen organically.
@@unikittythegamer4515Regionality. Most of all.
NFL teams tend to be in the big cities like Chicago, LA, New York, Detroit or Miami.
With College Football, every state, every city has “their” own team, competing with other teams nation wide on the same level. Same-ish level. Much like the premier league a Luton Town could never hope to consistently compete with a Man United and a Tulane could never hope to consistently compete with a Michigan, but the principle is the same… and upsets happen and they’re great. Places and states like Boise, Auburn, West Virgina or Nebraska could never hope to have a pro sports team at any level, but the college programs are massively popular. There’s also more of them and thus the fanbases tend to be smaller overall, which leads to a tighter sense of community, helps create traditions and fosters rivalries.
@@Ballin4Vengeance ah, right. Thanks for taking the time to give a comprehensive answer.
I like your idea of bringing the codes together. The NRL is taking over in Aus and the Pacific but league suffers with no international competition, if some how the cides could come together union would benefit with an incredible domestic competition and league would benefit with an incredible international competition... maybe I'm just dreaming, as a wallabies fan I know our team would be unbeatable if we could get our hands on those NRL players 😅
If the two codes came together, I'd be terrified of the wallabies
Yesterday I attended a Pacific Island festival in the Seattle area that showcased some All-star high school rugby with teams from Oregon, California and Utah. I saw a lot more NZ Warriors jerseys than any other rugby union jersey including the All Blacks. There is currently a rugby league revolution happening in the Pacific region and NZ rugby is on course to having a bleak future unless they can create a product that can compete with rugby leagues NRL. The NRL has so many similarities with the NFL which is why its very successful. The success of the NRL has also started to transfer to the international game. Its just a matter of time that region will have a yearly international comp that will be bigger and better than the rugby championship. In fact State of Origin is bigger than the Rugby Championship
@@tinasherusike7458 yes, I agree and well said
Would agree with many of your points. However you probably should retitle this "English Rugby in Crisis and how to fix English Rugby & also Welsh Rugby"
Fair. Ireland...as well as France are examples of where a bit of joined up thinking and different parties working for collective good are working. And low and behold they are numbers 1 and 2 in the world!
I was one to say "keep the 6 Nation as is", but this season and done of the things you raised here and the Egg Chasers has convinced me change is needed. Particularly in the Gallagher Premiership. Keep up the good work.
Only just discovered this video and it raises some points I wasn’t aware of (as a massive rugby union fan).
The points about the different bodies not wanting to change and pulling in different directions isn’t a huge surprise - this is the sport that (finally) went professional less than 30 years ago….. which I feel is also a major factor to the problems now.
I’d love to see the sport expand and give the ‘tier 2’ nations more opportunities to grow to become competitive. While it’s nice seeing your nation (as a Welsh man) do well despite recent problems, in the World Cup, the current state means at least two games of the group stages are null and void for Tier 1.
On an international level, the new nations championship will hopefully help things improve and maybe in 20 years it will be a more level playing field.
As for domestic, France are flying as your pointed out, the rest need all the financial help they can get. With WRU, there is a feeling on the decision makers at the top are reaping the rewards, while even the regional pro teams are having to make budget cuts, let alone the lower pro and semi-pro leagues. I wouldn’t be surprised to hear that there RU bodies are in the same place.
We need an upheaval across the board and whole it won’t be perfect, it could mean the difference between the sport surviving or becoming a non-entity viewed by the future generations.
I’d love to see more topics like this on the channel.
Great summary as usual. I recall when Canada drew to Japan in New Zealand this resulted in them finishing 13th and they just missed out on a huge increase in funding. Canada hasn't recovered from that and It would make more sense that the lower you finish the more money your team should get from the world cup proceeds to help improve the rugby. I mean to give the winner of the rugby world cup the most funding really does not help create that "any given Sunday" principle.
It's so hard for the developing nations like Canada, US, and Uruguay to get experience and funding. We go to world cups with a fraction of the game time as the big nations. If World Rugby wants the game to grow there needs to be a competition for the 2nd tier nations to play each other and some share of the spoils to allow for professionalism.
@@KissellMissile there are several annual competitions for the non-Tier 1 teams, but I guess funding is the big hurdle that prevents more.
Just discovered your channel from this video, you almost immediately earned a sub. I love this deep dive.
Good video, appreciate the wide-view analysis!
What a great concept
Love the idea of rugby looking after it’s self. I’d happily support lobbying the clubs around this 😊
Your conclusion is so true, RU is almost RL 20 yrs ago and the island teams would have a much greater chance in WCs. 6Ns is becoming stale and Tri nations is becoming repetitive
yes, well said and here in Australia Rugby League is 10 x more popular than Rugby and thats been and huge factor in demise of Wallabies
This video made me hungry for both food and wanting rugby to grow! You’re absolutely right regarding the pie - why isn’t there long term thinking, what’s stopping that from happening and how do you even begin starting the narrative of joined up long term thinking.. sadly I can’t think it’s going to happen 😢
Nothing good will happen I suspected the heads of World Rugby and RFU are still in that Old Farts mindset.
Such a massive topic well summarised. As you said Tim, too many parties all looking after their own interests. IMO we weren't ready for professionalism, leading to opportunists and wealthy "fans" looking to make a quick buck and build their teams/nations, blinkered to the bigger picture. Sadly we are now paying the price for the lack of a plan all those years ago. I really can't see a way out in the shorts term as the bankrupt guvernance can't afford to pay off the gazillionaire owners to enable us to start again. Keep up the good work.
Yep. Sadly I fear that total destruction might be necessary in order to build something that could realise the potential of the sport.
I don't think there is any owner who is a Gazillionaire.
I don't think they will need to pay anyone off if clubs keep going bump, the owners won't have a product to sell.
@@EggchasersRugby If we could destroy what we have and return the rugby landscape of the 1980s and 1990s that would be ideal. Ideal but sadly impossible. The core people are lost to the game and always will be now. Former players that I know, like myself, don't recognise what I see these days as the game I played. Rugby clubs themselves are now sterile places.
I hear players and ex players like Haskell talk about wages in the game. It sickens me to hear it. The inevitable comparison that these herberts want to male to football salaries makes me turn off.
I played many hundred games in my life for clubs in multiple countries. I know many people who played the game in their 40s to 60s. None of us are involved in the game, none of us watch the game often now and when most of us do we hate it.
Greed, health and safety, nonsensical rule changes have killed the game. It has lost its soul. And the more the people running the game do, the worse they make it! Rugby and cricket have suffered the same fate.
Body positions these days are horrible. Doesn't matter how you take the ball into contact these days at all. If you are going to coach players to go into contact head up, looking for an offload, you will get more injuries! And if you then penalise tacklers, you will encourage more head up nonsense. If you run into contact like a giraffe, you should get hurt, because its horrible! We will soon be left with rugby league rules. They want to appeal to the audience so change the game so much that its now a sham. A sham does not appeal to anyone. Rugby union is dead, you can keep the game that you have now, doesn't interest me or many others by the looks. If I were a kid today, rugby wouldn't interest me!
I watched a game which would have been 5th tier of English rugby the other week. A friend of mine was having a reunion at the club that day and invited me as I knew a few of the guys. The rugby was crap. Skill levels were really low for that standard. I came home and found videos of my old clubs playing. Skill levels horrified me. The standard of rugby these days is really bad. Bad to watch and I'm sure no better to play.
Professionalism killed the sport and it isn't coming back. You will get a unified rugby code but it doesn't matter. The game won't exist in a few decades.
I am a hurling fan, and over 40 years ago when I relocated to Dublin, I noticed that during Wimbledon all the children were on the streets with tennis rackets. Dublin was unusual in those days in that it hadBritish channels unlike most of the country and it was the same during the cricket. season My first sport is hurling and I have always bemoaned the fact that success in the sport was and is restricted to a small number of counties. Even back then I could see that the success of a sport was not necessarily all at one with its attractiveness, it is connected to exposure which leads to interest, participation and growth, but the small minded officials at the time were too covetous of gate receipts which resulted in a minimum of televised games. Thankfully, that has changed. Similarly, I have always loved rugby and have witnessed its expansion from being a minority sport in Ireland Unfortunately for the most part small minded people worm their way into the professional halls of sporting administration, because for the most part their face fits the small minded introverted space that they get to fill. I love the story line about the ecumenism in the AFL and NFL which I had not heard. Sadly it is a rare occurrence as it takes a big personality to burst through the vested interests and the multilayer political fiefdoms of most sporting administrations. One caveat though, a sport can get over exposure which can lead to disenchantment so I would be somewhat reluctant to tamper with a successful product such as the 6 Nations but there is certainly much food for thought and all sporting products need constant efforts to attract interest and all that follows
Brilliant comment! Really thoughtful. Appreciate the insight from Ireland.
I do, for it's worth, agree with you on 6N. I value tradition and history...I love it, and that romance does mean I would be reticent to make changes. Worth a conversation and consideration though.
@@EggchasersRugby Andy Farrell has the personality, history and pedigree to unify both rugby codes.
@@olivermahon9509 Now there’s a thought.
@@olivermahon9509 you'll never get League to accept contested scrums or line outs, nor union to accept a six taclke rule and that is the problem.
@@olivermahon9509 It's better they are two different sports tbh.
Great video Tim. I remember watching those two games between Bath and Wigan and the excitement felt about how Union could develop over the decades that followed under professionalism. How sad to see how wasted all that potential has been. The game may be professional but it is run by amateurs. Small minded; self-interested, petty individuals. I have met some of them in a past role involved in the game and I recognise your eye-rolling at some of the attitudes.
Learnt stuff i didnt know today ,excelldnt keep it coming
Very insightful. I do wonder it will be possible to get this kind of alignment from so many different nations. One reason the NFL has been so successful is that there were fewer stake holders. Also the anti trust exemption helps.
Wow. What an idea. I wonder what ideas and compromises a joint venture would bring. I personally see them very distinct and very different from each other
Thank you for the prep that went into this and very nicley put together with an intro, the story and conclusion with a question. Loved this type of content and learned more about the structure of the game too. To be a member of that french starting 15 vs the AB in september, I wonder if those emotions dont get the better of them! On the 6N it is a microcosim of the global rugby vision you describe. Each team can generally beat each other and its brilliant to watch. I understand why admins are precious about it and the revenue. But how can we keep the same essence and still grow it? The 3 tier 6N is a brill idea. Introduing relegation/promotion would be a start as you would have to promote from another 6N type division. At club level the Champions Cup and URC feature SA teams and the Super Rugby Champs feature Fiji teams - maybe these changes can lead to cracks in the international red circles?
On the NFL I am a 49ers fan and my heart was in my mouth watching them through the playoffs this year. Following the story of a wannabe QB going 10 in a row and getting so close was emotional investement. One of the obvious contraints vs NFL is the national teams are spread globally whilst the NFL has all 32 teams within a few hours of each other. There are undoubtedly indigenous cultural issies to solve but trying to solve that on a global scale is another beast
Bringing the 2 codes under one umbrella is interesting but how would you determine the best in the league/world when they play such different styles/rules. A 2 leg situation would just see each beating each other and nothing proven. One dirfection with a vision for all rugby would have to encompass all brands/codes and how do you administer that for the one pie?
Wonderful video Tim, covered a lot of points that I've also thought about, 6 Nations , a slight change of format would help , if we class the current 6nations teams as category A and three of them played a game against Georgia and the other three played a game against Romania, this would give everyone 6 games ( 3 home and away ) , a Grand Final for the best two teams from category A , with Georgia and Romania being classed as category B , they'd each have 3 games v higher opposition, the rest of their games could be made up with games v category C opposition, Spain Portugal and Belgium etc , gold , silver and bronze plates could be handed out to these teams in order of merit ( I'd have to email you the format Tim ).
Definitely on club competition, I believe it should be a British/Irish and South African competition, by looking at the NFL formula , I'd like to think that the rugby boffins could come up with some competition that would see teams play some teams from their own conference and some team from the other conference , teams could play other teams from their own country/league in regional cup matches .
Pretty spot on your points on American Football, I read a wonderful book about ten years ago, America's Game by Michael McCambrige , yes certainly a few lessons that rugby could learn from the AFL/NFL merger .
You only have to read some of Nick Cain's brilliant articles in the Rugby Paper regarding the difference between how at the elite level in English and French rugby, the French game is runs o good ,in fact in France some even predict that it'll eventually overtake football as the number one sport .
Nothing controversial in my opinion about rugby union and league ever getting back together ( although unlikely to happen )
It'd certainly be a major shot in the arm for both codes that are certainly a lot closer together than say 30 years ago ( just look at the amout of former rugby league coaches and players now involved in union ) .
Finally , with the sad demise of Super Rugby , It'd be nice if the powers in rugby could arrange something to have a Pacific Conference for the Heineken Cup, obviously this would mean Super Rugby would have to reduce the amount of fixtures in its competition , but games could be made back up by Heineken Cup matches with the best 4 teames from the Pacific Conference qualifying for a finals series, this could see each team ( Pacific and European etc ) playing 2 games before going into a quarter final knock-out stage ( obviously these games would have to be the finally of the club season ) , both Heineken Cup and URC in my opinion should hold the semi-finals as a double header at a host stadium with the final the following weekend, not only would this be great tourism for a host city , such as Dublin, Cardiff or Edinburgh etc , it'd certainly help on player welfare by not seeing a team have to travel to a another hemisphere for a final the following weekend fron the semi-final , and as for having teams coming over from the Pacific Conference, we could host this Heineken Cup finals series in Europe biannually and South African and Australia/New Zealand the other years , just think of the potential money maker in an annual clash of Leinster v Crusaders etc .
Anyway if youre still reading this Tim, you can now look the assistant in Waterstones in the eye and say " give me War and Peace " , I've hit the subscribe button and best wishes for the future of the channel mate
Great video. Probably the best overview of the situation I've come across.
I agree that the main issue is short-term thinking from people in key positions (to the point where I'm worried they aren't fit for those positions). I'd love to see the french model in the UK (I'd also want it free to air as I believe it's the only way for rugby to get the oxygen required to grow, but that's probably stupid).
Love the comparison to the early NFL, hope higher-ups are listening!
Sadly, I don't see the codes joining. The games have diverged too much (how would you reconcile the rules?) but I could imagine one going bust (not that I want that to happen).
Some great takes in this post, well done
Rugby Union and Rugby league have both diverged into practically different sports. I don't see them ever come back together. It's like trying to merge rugby and American football.
The problem is both call themselves rugby.
“The Rugby World Cup.”
Ok but do they play league or union rules? Is there a separate world cup for rugby league? Does this national league play league or union? Six Nations? What do they mean by “Rugby” at the olympics?I had to dig through the World Cup page for about 2 minutes before I even found out what sport they ACTUALLY play. The difference may be significant, but they sure make it seem like it’s a minor detail you’ll find out when you see how they drew the lines on the field.
Great video and breakdown. I love your content.
Great vision tim, if the powers that be could only see it that way🇿🇦🤘🏻
Another good video as always Tim.
Just subscribed, really like the content, different to all the usual rugby channels just doing match reviews, rugby needs more new minds with critical analysis on how to grow the game
Great options for solutions! Also if you are at the champions Cup final you need to hit up the gasworks beside landsowne road for some craft beer and a negroni!
The "Drive to Survive" style series has worked in Rugby before, the 2 examples being: Chasing the Sun(Springboks 2019 RWC) & Two Sides(RSA VS B&I Lions 2021, having both teams behind the scenes) both made and distributed by SuperSport here in South Africa🇿🇦. Both series were received very well with Chasing the Sun being so popular that they made it available to international TV audiences. SuperSport had exclusive access to the dressings rooms(before the game, halftime and after the game), the hotel rooms, the training grounds, team Busses etc. and none of the players in both series had a problem with the cameras. SuperSport a few decades ago did a series called: Springbok Saga: 1995 - 2007 where they documented the journeys of Springbok players/coaches between 1995 and 2007 when the Boks won those RWCs, unfortunately its rare to have that series air here in South Africa let alone internationally, just to show as a proof of concept that it does work and that we as fans can in some way connect to the players beyond the rugby field. Its a shame that during the 6N some teams didn't want the cameras present with them.
Class commentary. The idea of the unification of the two codes is mouth-watering
Does make you think doesn't it
It only ever seems to be Union fans that float the idea of a merger. You never hear this from League? Why is that? How would we bring about a merger? What rules do you play with? It seems impossible. By "merger" it would most likely just be Union acquiring League clubs who would probably struggle to bring their fan base over. People always say merger but never present anything beyond that.
As an Australian if there was a merger we would have a strong team again
@@Jamie-ye7fuwell it’s quite obvious Jamie merger means merging the rules and competitions. Obviously compromise is going to be difficult because both sets of fans are going to want as many of their rules as possible. As a union fan, one rule I would probably take happily is 13 players, opens up more room, although I struggle who to get rid off. Probably flankers because they could most easily adapt into 8s or centres and aren’t needed in scrums, although perhaps licks or props depending on which set pieces you keep. I think most league fans would accept having contested breakdowns as it would just take in even more players and make up more space. I would argue with the 2 less players and breakdowns, there is more room for teams to run so you could potentially get rid of the 6 tackle rule and teams won’t just kick although I suspect this will be one of league fans’ biggest rules they won’t compromise on. Although there was quite a bit of kicking this 6 nations and it was one of the most entertaining 6 nations I’ve ever seen with some brilliant tried. Line outs and breakdowns are the tricky ones because they’re the set-pieces which bring in union only players and specialists. I would imagine lineouts wouldn’t be too criticised but scrums maybe because of the time they can take, even though it’s not all that long. And that’s it really that I can think off, those are the main big rules which would have to be sorted out, the rest are more niche and fans would be more willing to compromise on
@@joelhungerford8388it would be a scary strong team that’s for sure
Great thought provoking video thank you Tim.
I think the future model should be based on a hybrid of the French and Irish systems.
Your point about federations or owners taking a hit now in order to make potentially massive gains later is correct but is there enough vision and "buy-in", I sadly fear not.
Anyway, in a fit of optimism I have just this morning renewed my Ulster season ticket. Or was it maybe silly?
Anyway, see you in Ravenhill again next season.
Those are the 2 shining examples just now and both, in their own very different ways, are the result of joined up, long term strategies.
Just a point with you talking about the men's six nations and the 3 league system at 21:10 , women's rugby brings up a good example of pulling in the same direction, with the WXV competition forming with a meaningful pathway given to more women's national teams. I felt it was a fair bit closer at the World Cup last year too, apart from a lack of funding for some sides (which still played great!)
Brilliant as always, Tim. Joining the two codes may be fantasy but interesting to think, as a union fan, what part of the game would you be prepared to sacrifice in order to merge the codes? The ruck, the set piece?
With the bad attention Union is having with a lot of laws like tries from a rolling maul being not pretty I would just make it 13 a side Rugby League with contested 6 man scrums and Lineouts ;)
Mmmm....pie.....arrrrgggh🤤😂 homer Simpson 😂 tim you made hungry with all the talk of pie 🥧 great history lesson in the NFL for insight and contrast to rugby! Great video as as always pal, stay true to the cause🏉💪
Great video. Very interesting..
Great Video and ideas put forward. Coming from Ireland, i always support all the provinces because of they are doing well, Ireland is doing well. Obviously, at the moment (and really the last 15 years) Leinster are way ahead of the other 3. I'd like to see an equalisation of talent across the provinces but understand that having most of the guys playing at Leinster helps cohesion at International level.
As you say, going into a world cup, it would be great to see a situation where the winner could be a Georgia or Fiji or Italy but i would take them being competitive noon walkovers and that only comes with equalizing money to invest in the grass roots and infrastructure of the individual countries plus, somehow developing the interest kids have in the sport from the under age levels (as young as possible)
That final point is a brilliant one...and critical i agree.
Ireland's 4 provinces play in a comp (URC) that involves 4 other tier one nations and yet that comp struggles to make more revenue than the Azerbaijan Premier league (soccer), Mexican baseball, 3rd tier Japanese soccer and Bangladesh 20/20 cricket. For an international comp that is embarrassing but also shows how low ratings and revenue are.
Great summary, had to look up the Wigan v Bath games on CZcams. Class martin offiah what a player
Rugby League is a wonderful parallel universe with amazing athletes and laws that get the best of them. Just watch the NRL and you'll find it hard to watch union again
Rugby has lost its spectator appeal. The rules are too contrived and officials dictate the outcome.
Co mpletely agree with the poor and biased officiating
You're threading a very fine line here with romanticising US sport.
I've lived in North America and while the money and obsession is real, it's literally all about winning and nothing else. The notions of community and genuinely having your heart in the team is completely lost over there.
For me, I would not long for an NFL model no more than a football one. Rugby needs work, but these are not what to aim for.
I'm not so much longing for an NFL model - I completely agree there are strengths of how sport is over here - not least the league pyramid which encourages people to stay as participants not just viewers or consumers. But I WOULD like a bit more of the coherent, simplified strategy for growth.
You’re full of shit. Go to any town in the fall.
Lots of valid and interesting comparisons with NFL. The key difference is the lack of any national or international competition in NFL. It’s the competing factors of club competition Vs national bodies that has been the overriding issue and the most difficult to solve, due to neither side being able to see the picture. The old farts analogy is still relevant to the national setups (certainly in England) and I can only see a change coming about through some form of breakaway from the traditional unions. Leave them to run the community game and have a truly professional one body to oversea all pro rugby.
The last point on League and Union could work on a commercial basis, by having one franchise that had teams in each code. But any idea of merging the codes back together as one sport doesn’t. They’re two different games that share a ball that’s the same shape. Yes, some players of either code are able to play either but they’re different games.
Love the video, and I hugely agree with the sentiment, but not sure I totally agree with the conclusions. The example of the NFL while it's a nice analogy to use, it's not the best imo, I think a counterpoint that is more akin to rugby is Football, they operate in a similar fashion to rugby, with different groups pulling in different directions, but it is still the most popular sport in the world. The US market is huge, but I don't think rugby should sell it's soul in order to break that market. F1 is currently trying its best to do so, and as a huge F1 fan its turning me off F1, the US model isn't as suited to a European/ROW market. I think we could pursue an NFL approach, but what we would be watching wouldn't be the rugby we love anymore. I think the first question has to be, what is the end goal? Are we looking to have rugby being more popular all around the world, but the product diluted so much that it's no longer identifiable as rugby, get rid of scrums to speed up the game, have gimmicks like in NFL, introduce a draft as opposed to acadamies, all that goes down a route where I wouldn't be as compelled to watch it. The biggest worry is that rugby seems not to be sustainable at the minute. So a restructuring of some of the competitions may be needed. URC has restructured and is now beginning to turn a corner with the addition of the SA teams. Like you said the Top14 is going well. But the Champions Cup isn't in a better place than it was prior to EPCR replacing ERC and SuperRugby is in an apparent decline. The international game relatively speaking is booming, but that is what World Rugby want to mess with, because they stand to benefit. I know standing still is to move backwards, but change for changes sake isn't always positive either. I don't have any solutions, but as you can tell by the length of this comment I'm also hugely passionate about this point, and I love the content you're producing, cheers.
The club game is unstable which jeopardizes the league. Rugby needs to open up to proper professional attitudes. None of this sentiment helps. Wasps and Worcester should collapse and suffer for poor management. The league in England doesn't make a profit.
At the premiership level, I think you need to bring back relegation. The secret is the fanbase, you need to keep it loyal and give the fans something to do. The home team they can cheer for and see as a part of their community, suffering the downs and celebrating the ups. Limiting the sport the way the NFL does is I think a mistake. On top of that fan outreach needs to be a part of any club making sure that the community know who you are and engage with them to come watch the games. The NFL system benefits the 0.01% of athletes that make it there, and the small number of towns that have a franchise, whereas the football system benefits untold thousands of players playing at every level, thousands of communities with clubs, and millions of fans.
Thanks for your insight and knowledge of rugby. You don't find that sort of content on CZcams.
Personally I would love to see the ideas mentioned in this video implemented. I live in leeds and granted the north of England is more heavily biased to the league code I would love to be able to visit a leeds union match that at the same calibre as that of the bigger names in rugby. To much rugby seems to be kept down south, we need a country wide initiative.
@@somenamethatdoesntmatter I know it’s probably not realistically gonna happen at the end of the day but it was more of a wish. It’s interesting to read that even in areas where there is a larger audience it isn’t getting attention and saddening that this is the case. At this point it’s looking like the only option is to almost start from scratch.
@@somenamethatdoesntmatter100% mate I’m from Essex and the number of rugby followers there is big. Like of course it’s not football, football rules everywhere in England but people don’t think of Essex, Kent and the south east as a rugby hub but it is hugely popular here and although Saracens is ok to get to, easier than from Kent, it’s still a pain, there’s not a team based in Essex or well placed transport wise and nearby like West Ham, spurs or arsenal in the football
@@somenamethatdoesntmatter woah woah not taking that Essex slander haha, not seen much posh in Kent whenever I’ve been there. But no it’s not great to get to games. Most people support Saracens here and I know unite a lot of people who go and it’s not like I sought them out through rugby, I’ve just happened to talk about rugby and they are big fans, but lots can’t go regularly because it’s difficult to get to or other reasons. I know Saracens wouldn’t move from their local area but Tottenham is a lot easier to get to than the stonex. I mean if they could make a deal with the borough and tfl to reopen/extend the line and open a station nearby the stadium, that would help a lot. The old line is still there it’s not been built over. Just the sort of things which could make a big difference. If a team could ground share with someone like Charlton Athletic who could do with the money, that would get a lot of Kent and other south London fans
A good video thanks. To this day I find Euro rugby comps so confusing - URC Gallagher Prem, Heineken Champs League sooooo confusing.
Nothing is streamlined and its all in bits n pieces.
How can you unify fans when its all so bloody disparate?
As a long term fan of both rugby and league (I’m nearly 80 ) . I’ve also played both codes (not at high level. I played league for my small town in NSW and Rugby for my college at UNI. I have been watching the NRL in Sydney since 1964. League in those days was possibly as popular as Rugby and the internationals against NZ were v popular.
The NRL did not have the 6 tackle rule back then instead they had the unlimited tackle rule. Huge immobile forwards would “ cart it up” the middle until they reached the opponent,s try line. I t was called the “ bash and barge” . The great change came in 1966 with the 4 tackle rule and later the 6 tackle rule of today.
Rugby’s problem at present is in my opinion is the constant unlimited rucking up the field leading to mistakes which then leads to scrums and further problems.
If league and union were to merge I believe the a change in the ruck would improve both codes. Firstly, limit the number of rucks and make them mostly uncontested. This would still draw the forwards in and allow more backline play. This means both codes would have a six tackle rule and would be more exciting to watch.
It is a dream of mine to see the great players we have in the NRL competing with the greats in union.
I love both too. The bash and barge in Union with 5 minutes to go is very boring.
In France in fact we have more than 2 division, on the most important WE have in order top14, ProD2, Nationale, and Fédéral 1,2,3 witch is on a regional size
Agree with all of what you say although NFL don't have internationals to think about. Rugby does need a visionary to shake it up massively though. It should be huge!
100%
Enjoyed your commentary. Good to get the old mind thinking about something new. It reminded me a bit of many moons ago when we both lived in the US, my brother and I used to pick out NFL players that would make good rugby players. In terms of rugby tv success - equals financial success of course - France is probably the biggest national pie and England should be second. I’m not sure that it is though. I suspect League in Australia is possibly bigger, certainly in terms of penetration. I’m getting the vibe from NZ too, that League is moving up the charts there too. Not sure that the 57 Gentlemen Will Carling referred to some years ago, are the right ones to make it better. I think that most national unions fall into the same category and aim to cement the status quo.
Apart from all the organisational issues, the one really big one has to do with the actual playing of the game itself, or, more specifically, the head injury plague. How many mothers are going to be turned off by the stream of concussions that are an everyday occurrence, from allowing their little boys to play that rough game? I think that needs addressing long before we try to take the next step. The most recent example I can think of is the pure carnage of the recent Glasgow v Munster game. Horrendous stuff for the mother of any young lad to see if same young lad wants to play the game.
Keep up the good work. You’d never know what undercurrents might be stirred by some fresh thinking.
England has the biggest pool of rugby players in the world. It isn't even close. The truth of the problem is rugby in England is so big that it can't be centralized like is done in Ireland. Too many moving parts. The rest is just piss poor management from the clubs in England
@@jamesc8209I think there’s more in France but yeah England and France are definitely the biggest and can’t be centralised easily
I don't always agree with you Tim but I've got to say I think you've nailed this. We should look at the NFL model especially the draft, this would draw in lots of interest for people on the fringes as well as existing rugby fans. Pat Lam has been saying the same for a while now.
Great stuff.
Out of curiosity, if you were able to bring the codes together, which aspects of each would you keep, and what would you discard?
The huge problem for Rugby here in Australia is that Australian Rules - AFL and Rugby League - NRL competitions dwarf Rugby in every measure out there. TV audience, sponsorships, game attendance, participation, newspaper inches, radio shows, podcast, social media, played in schools, women's competitions and on and on.
In the 2 main Rugby League / Rugby states of NSW and QLD Rugby League is 10 x more popular than rugby and It's boomed over the last 20 years while rugby has declined massively in popularity.
The AFL and NRL have a huge advantage is attracting the best young kids coming through and career opportunities as well, which unfortunately reduces the player pool of kids wanting to play rugby. In Rugby League our game is littered with players ( mainly the backs ) who could be superstars if they played Rugby with their natural athletic ability
And Rugby's rules are killing the game as a spectacle to watch with 20, scrum and 20 lines outs and 20 penalties and 10 penalty goals and drop goals with ball in play time half what you get in a Rugby League game
I am a Rugby League supporter first, but most League supporters are also Wallaby fans and want them to do well as while the games are different 50% is similar and we will watch as long as it's not boring with stoppage after stoppage etc
I watch a lot of League and Union. I have a season seat to my local MLR side RFCLA. I also do commentary and will ref our local Rugby League comp. A slow League game is miles better than a slow Union game. When you watch both it’s staggering how much stoppage there is in Union at times. When the ball stays into touch and there are few scrums Union is the best.
Biggest problem resides in the physicality that requires a sport like rugby. Professionnal american football is basically only the 32 NFL teams and they are built on this huge foundation that is the true amateur root of this sport that is college football. The 32 NFL teams have the luxury to pick only the cream de la cream players and they only have to bother to play a 17 games regular seasons plus the eventual 1 to 4 playoffs games. With all that , it’s much easier for all the actors to pull in the same direction and provide top quality games each and every sundays.
Rugby in comparison is a huge mess. Its roots reside in the International games which requires around 10 to 13 games during non WC year. Add to that the domestic leagues + the european cups and it’s easy to see that the product is not viable.
I love Top 14 for instance, but they already have a brutal 26! games regular season and people are already complaining because too much of these games a biased due to the frequent rotations of the international players. If I am a Toulouse fan, I wanna see Dupont in every matchs I attend if he’s healthy! Otherwise why coming to the stadium ?
We need to reduce clubs schedule for 1) quality reason and 2) healthy concerns about the players. Problem: I am not sure clubs can survive that in the short terms without a Big financial help.
I’ve not thought enough about the club situation so I’ll think about it and comment again in a few days lol. Probably would try getting more European teams in places like Amsterdam, heidleberg or Hannover or Berlin, Lisbon, Madrid, Bucharest etc into the challenge cup. Just for the pure improvement of those teams. And maybe a combined Iberian league, even maybe some Italian teams in that as well. And a benelux league or something. And premiership is a grassroots and marketing thing I think but as I said I’ll probablycomment again after thinking about it for longer.
I would love to see a the European Rugby Championship Cup final in Amsterdam, Berlin, Barcelona, Lisbon, Belgium, Prague etc
So much to say but for, scale @Tim, international scale. US NFL does not have international fixtures, so analogy is limited. And international comp is rugby's unique asset.
Even with combined rugby codes you'd still to need to align/harmonise all the international fixtures. Must retain Six Nations and emerging Pacific comp (surely one of the few areas of growth at 'elite' level in the world). Consider 2nd tier international regional cup(s) with relegation. Retain, expand international Euro-type club comps by adding similar southern hemp comps, global club trophy (Leinster vs Crusaders?). But it would all impact domestic comp, reducing availability of quality players to regional clubs and probably their viability. Is that what we're seeing indirectly in Eng prem?
Combined league-rugby would address player pool, draft would help manage comp quality/consistency, but neither addresses need for better alignment between domestic and regional/international comps which would maximise visibility and investment. Someone should start designing a schedule around world cups.
Brilliant exposition and to simplify I classify ALL PEOPLE into these categories Givers, Takers , Blockers,Sharers and some rugby union teams are takers and blockers. To create the attraction in the game it needs to become a Giving and Sharing community as a philosophy t hat will create aSYTEM that can be PROCESSED towards an exciting fraternity for all to enjoy.
Perfect simplification...I'll be using that!
It all sounds marvellous, think co-operatively, share the pie, expand the Six Nations, and so on. How about spending some time thinking about grassroots rugby, how about spending time thinking and planning to expand the number of Junior Clubs, thereby expanding the player-base? None of this pie-in -the-sky thinking works until you have enough players, and where do they come from? Mini and Junior rugby, that's where! If you want to get anywhere near realising these ambitions for the game, you're going to need a damn sight more kids playing at Junior clubs than we currently have, otherwise your dream will remain just that-a dream! Also, speaking as someone who always loved playing, you have to foster a love for playing the game itself, as almost the sole motivation for doing it, because those of us who played for years at our own expense kept turning up for the game, not financial reward. Bugger your pie! Just grow and encourage the sport as a sport, stop pissing about with the Laws(ban scrum feeding, have hookers hook, stop artificially extending the back foot, ditch lifting at the line-out etc), stop trying to turn Rugby Union into Rugby League with knobs on! The rest will follow!
For internationals I would leave the 6 nations and rugby championship alone. I mean you could add teams like Japan, or the pacific islands and play each team once instead of twice. I think that’s a good idea as it would improve those other teams and it would increase the chances of having varied winners as you only have to play the all blacks once. But this isn’t a hugely important topic in the grand scale of things and it’s up for the Southern Hemisphere to decide what they want to do. For the 6 nations as I’ve said somewhere else there is absolutely no point having a seventh team come up each year or anything like that. It doesn’t give them enough time to get to the standard and improve nor does it engage the fans when they see their team get pummelled. Italy have seen the pummelling but they’ve also had the guarantee of playing in 5 years time so have time to build youth systems and get to that standard over time and you’re seeing it start to come through. So you could potentially add another team or two. But that means more games and I think fans are happy with the current length and clubs definitely would suffer. You could do what the rugby Europe championship does with 2 groups of 4 and then 1st v 4th and 2nd v 3rd, 5th v 8th and 6th v 7th but I don’t think people would care too much and plus you’re not guaranteed to play all your rivalries, for example no Calcutta cup one year. And the other thing is adding a team like Georgia makes no sense economically as they’re a poorer nation and a small nation population wise. Spain would be the best as it has those and also has cultural and historical links and rivalries with all the 6 nations countries but they can’t the extra games and the fact they’re not the next best team in Europe so it’s unfair in a sporting way.
Great point on merge of codes, everyone wins!!!
Unfortunately Tim, as we have seen from the CVC deals there is too much short term thinking and over-optimism that non-rugby finance streams (Hotels, Casinos etc.) will prop up the rugby side of the club. As a Brummie, interested in seeing what you're meant to be doing at Bournville next Saturday, as they don't have any event listed on their website or socials.
I would have the rugby World Cup as it is. Well I’d expand to 24 right now and hopefully within 20 years make it to 32 but otherwise that’s in pretty decent shape. I think the biggest think rugby needs is regional tournaments, like a rugby euros. The top 16 in Europe play a tournament once every 4 years, in the 2 years between World Cup years ideally ie 2025, 2029 etc. This would be an exciting new tournament where lots of European nations, I’m using Europe as the example as I’m from there, to play each other in a tournament which many wouldn’t get as they don’t qualify for the World Cup. A simple 4 groups of 4 system would do. Maybe a 9th-16th play after the groups as well just for extra games for them to play still but I’m not sure how much interest that would get. The 6 nations and the 8 in the rugby Europe championship qualify automatically, and then probably the top 2 in the third tier so no useless qualifiers. Neighbouring countries have the rivalries already, you don’t need to build them up as much. And you could easily do this in the americas and in the pacific as well maybe, but Europe and the americas would gain the most from this system. I would move the lions tour to make way for it, probably to the summer after the World Cup where rugby hype is at it’s highest and the lions tour only has to contest with the olympics in the summer because it definitely doesn’t want to be competing with the FIFA World Cup.
American football has extremely few adult amateur players, and those there are are mostly outside the one country solution for US professionals. Rugby union has many, and their needs must also be part of the solutions (and I admit to being so tribal that I don't know whether the same is true for league). That amateurs should in effect only be young wannabe pros, most of whom will not make it and will give up the game, would be to lose much that is good about rugby.
Completely agree. Wouldn't advocate for a total replication. But there are definitely pieces we can cherry pick.
@@EggchasersRugby I agree, and very much appreciate your exploration of the subject. My tongue is firmly in my cheek if I suggest one governing body for a recombined professional game and another for amateurs.
What do you mean? There are over 70,000 amateur football players between the ages of 18-22 at US colleges which functions as the amateur system (not to mention 1 million between 15-18).
That said, I agree that Rugby is unique by having lots of amateurs who are competitive but not trying to be professional. Investing in amateur rugby should strengthen the professional game (which is what American Football did).
Hey Tim. Thought this was a fantastic summary of where rugby is, and highlighted the best ways to market the best attributes of the game. It's sad that so many clubs/unions don't see the potential.
Seems like World Rugby would rather people argue about red cards/high tackle rules around the water cooler versus people being passionate about teams and the game itself.
The league and union reformation would be amazing. Maybe not under one banner, but I definitely think there's a way for them to work together, like how union and sevens sees one and the other as a springboard, of sorts. Perhaps one and the other can loan players to see where they fit best? Would bring interest to and from both codes to one another.
To show that the NFL comparison is not a one off, or only relevant because it is part of the worlds largest economy, another good parallel is also the state of world cricket and the rise of the IPL. The IPL followed the NFL blueprint, so anyone can win at any time, and the rise of it has been meteoric.
What if we are looking at this the whole wrong way ,
What if League and union where to merge under one umbrella “World rugby “ but keep rugby league but change it to rugby 13s ,
You would have :
Rugby 15s
Rugby 13s
Rugby 7s
This would help rugby league to grow its international game and be run by a professional organisation,
But also keep there identity and style of play ,
It would result in “Rugby” as a whole working together to increase its popularity around the world
I can’t see the NRL coming to the party as a merger nor can I see world rugby coming to the party .
It would be a match made in heaven and would get both sides to put the knifes down and work together to grow the game around the world ,
If the rugbys were United in Australia it would do a great job fighting the AFL ,
The way things are going RL will be the dominant code in the southern hemisphere and RU will be the dominant code in the northern hemisphere.
Great video and some good points. Interesting stuff about NFL.
Have to disagree with bringing the two codes back together, I’m a huge fan of both and like their differences. NFL/AFL were playing the same game with the same laws, whilst we’ve had 130 years apart. I think the cultural differences in the games and it’s audiences are just to set.
Otherwise, this was a very interesting and good discussion. From the Australian perspective and with a very general appreciation of the development and growth of the local AFL in this country (as it competes with the two rugby codes and soccer) since the late 1970s, it is very clear how the local AFL people (starting with the VFL back then) were doing their best to use the American experience in growing their industry as a template. And my, hasn’t that been a successful venture! Compliments to the speaker in this video from the land where “International Rugby” now suffers from an existential crisis. I think that the core issue here can be considered to be a form of “prisoners’ dilemma”. Groups of humans will behave in ways that the students of human nature are fully familiar with. Some will see the big picture where everyone benefits while many will simply gorge themselves on self interest, ultimately to everyone’s demise. I think that “big picture” people like Bert Bell, Pete Rozelle could have had a role in seeing a way through the present dilemma in Israel-Palestine. Perhaps “Mr Eggchaser” could get a job with the UN? Oh but the self interested, internecine types wouldn’t have a bar of that. When it’s every man and tribe for themselves then everyone loses.
Very interesting as someone who enjoys both league and union I would love for the codes to unite , as long as there is compromise a good combination of the laws , but I don't think a lot of union and league die hards would like it
Yes everything you said was great, if I was to add anything I think we need to change the world competitions so they get more country's into rugby. My example for what this should be is
Seven nations league one
England
Wales
Scotland
Ireland
France
Italy
Georgia
Seven nations league two
Usa
Canada
Portugal
Spain
Romania
Russia (if you don't want to bring them back, you could have the Netherlands take their place. Although I wouldn't do that as the amount of money USA VS Russia games would bring inwould be insane)
Switzerland
AOASA (Asia, Oceania, Africa, South America) league one
New Zealand
Australia
South Africa
Argentina
Fiji
Japan
Samoa
The AOASA league two
Uruguay
Tonga
Chile
Namibia
Hong kong
Brazil
Korea
Then have the two winners from the seven nations league two go into league one for the seven nations and do the same for the AOASA league.
You could also have the winner of the seven nations and the winner of the AOASA league switch leagues for next year, to help make the competition more varied.
Heres an example of how varied this competition could get by using the league one teams for the seven nations over a three year time gap
England
Wales
Scotland
Ireland
France
Italy
Georgia
New Zealand
Wales
Scotland
Ireland
France
USA
Russia
England
Canada
Romania
Ireland
South Africa
USA
Russia
And this would just keep on getting crazier with league two allowing for more country's to join the competition such as Germany and Belgium.
100% on the topic. I have my own thoughts on how to fix everything, and rather than NFL, I'd look at a MLB with minor leagues theory. And internaionally, I'd have a 3 year world cup qualifiers... Ok, too many ideas for a comments section. Might need to start my own channel 🙄
I'd watch. Would love to hear more.
Can't do MLB. They play like 100 games, and the stadiums are semi full until the playoffs. Far too different a sport.
@@Daniboi971 not actually what I meant. Think 30+ franchises with development teams playing in smaller markets as feeders to the major teams
Speaking England only. Central contracts UTTERLY unavoidable. The domestic game is simply not viable for the amount of teams in our league.
Also love how the women's game is growing but we should have put equal or more effort into getting it into state schools.
Our players by in large come from a small pool of public schools.
You don't see rugby fields in state schools anymore and that is a bigger problem than people realise.
It's a 'closed shop' once more.
In a way it makes a lot of sense. Let's face it a lot of the best coaches are allready doing it ie Farrell, Sinfield and English rugby league is having its own difficulty keeping hold of promising players. A lot of people would dislike the idea ,probably just as many that disliked the idea of the codes splitting in the first place! Something needs to be done though , I know some of the Welsh clubs have admitted they can't keep the best players cos other clubs are willing to offer them more money.
Fantastic video (although I'm imagining 'Pub Landlord'-style voices saying "Do it like the Americans? But they're *American*!")
Sports over there are awash with money because they operate collectively. Well-run organisations remain consistently strong despite levelling effects like the Draft and strength-of-schedule, but poorly-run franchises stay afloat even while their 'any given Sundays' are sometimes scarce. Fans go into nearly every season hopeful, engaged, and buying merch.
I could bang on about this for hours....but the immedite UK change id make would be to set up a British and Irish League and move it to the Summer (don't go against Football) viewership will skyrocket. Create controversy, rivalism, superstars, better social media. Make sure each country Union has the same rights in terms of player national training/playing times etc
Good channel and I'm one of the few thinking that a merger of the codes would be ideal for Englaish and Australian Rugby as a ring fenced premiership is a joke in a country who invented both codes of Rugby with over 70 million people and the same to Rugby League with what's going on with IMG as clubs such as Bedford, Plymouth, York RL and Workington RL would just end up in a Limbo like welsh clubs like Neath, Pontypool, Hawick etc with nothing to aim for.
The money would grow with TV and Sponsership with a full time Premiership and also Championship with the likes between Leeds v Leicester and Harlequin v Hull KR and seeing Barrow take on Cornish Pirates etc be great itstead of seeing Wigan v St.Helens again and then have a league 1 like France also after that would be Pro/semi pro with the likes of Workington and Plymooth etc and the set up.
I go one step further and just have a British and Irish Super League and we would have geographical product that covers the whole of the UK and something which English Soccer doesn't have.
I would scrap summer tests because I’m not interested in playing the same team 3 times personally. I would have a summer internationals like the autumn but in summer obviously haha and in the Southern Hemisphere. I would have the top 16 rugby teams in the world play other top 16 teams twice in the summer and then a tier 2 team below 16th twice. For example, England might play Australia and fiji in the summer and then also play Portugal and chile. And then I’d do the same in autumn, England might play New Zealand and Japan and then they play the Netherlands and USA. And I’m not sure whether they have to play these games in tier 2 nations or whether one in tier 2 and one in England because the tier 2 players and fans might ge their once chance to play at a Murrayfield or Twickenham or stade de France etc. But with this system you get 4 competitive games a year and then 4 games against tier 2 nations which is your nfl thing, short term sacrifice to make the pie bigger. This would do wonders for those tier 2 nations from about 17th to 35th, refuels right games against the top nations, which is 4 more a year than they currently get. And in their other 2 games they have to play the next ones below maybe so they get exposure. Then you have a global calendar and different levels playing each other every year. In my opinion this is the key for growth because getting hammered in World Cup pool games every 4 years isn’t going to achieve it.
As an American who has lived abroad quite a bit, I'm accustomed to the view (especially in Europe) that anything American would be a denigration of the great way things are done. However, the NFL is a really fun product. It's fun to have to have such much parity in the league. And it's fun to see new teams win. And it's fun to sit in crowds if 60-100k passionate fans even in smaller markets. It's a great product because it shares resources which prevents financial disparities and in the end everyone wins. And it did that all in the last 50 years. For me, European rugby would do well to pay attention (aka, maybe don't try to imitate European football).
Bingo. I wouldn't want an American model wholesale, but some principles applied would go a long way.
Keith Wood did a few bits for OTB and said the ERFU needs to take back control of the game in England back from the clubs. We then need a B and I 2 league conference. 4 x Irish, 2 x Scots 3/4 Welsh and 8/10 English clubs/districts.
Too much of rugby is driven by the pro game and making as much money as possible.
To me, rugby is a game I loved playing. If people don't want to play or watch it then fine. If the top players don't earn much, then either play for the love of it or don't. If it means one devotes less time to the game, then that's how it is. If it's not on telly, then go and watch your local team or don't.
We have a system or structure that's not sustainable and are obsessed with making that work because it means more money rather than saying it's our game play/watch or don't.
Thats the kind of mindset that has got the ARU in the poor state it's in now
great video but dont forget the super league tried to model itself on the NFL. teams changed names and badges to be more NFL like, the coverage on sky was all stats based with a story emotive like soin to it. Super League TV deal centrally managed.
Modelling the NFL worked for rugby league in Australia so maybe its because it wasn't the biggest code here.
That's another issue rugby has, too many codes. Rugby needs one code. I grew up with league but my boys play union because league is dying now. 100% agree the codes need to join
At the end, the main problem of Rugby is that is played by 10 countries at high level, and around 25 countries at "reasonnably good level". World Rugby's main goal should be to develop the game globally, like Soccer. There are particularly opportunities in Europe and Americas. Let's open the competitions to them, or a World Cup every 3 years. Georgia, USA, Canada, Chile, Spain, Germany, Romania, Brasil, Portugal, Uruguay not to mention Japan and Pacific Islands of course. Let's add them to competitions to make Rugby become a global sport because the potential is there, and hopefully in few year's time, World Cup can include 24 or 32 teams. And a "European Championship" with 12 teams could help as well.
Good arguments! Tim's analogy about the idea of Fiji (nerd alert - not pronounced FEEJY but FeeJee! Only you Poms pronounce it FEEJY) being able to win the RWC is not that pressing to me. Most teams who qualify for the football WC are happy just to do so! Only a small number of teams are poised to win it, but it doesn't stop the popularity of the event. My native Australia are football minnows so we are happy just to qualify and maybe sneak a win or two and qualify for the knockout stage. Whereas in RU and RL and cricket we are in it to win it!
That just means more 130-3 scorelines though. It wont make it more fun to watch
You are hitting the nail in the right area here. Getting money down into second and third tier nations is key. It has seemed to me for years that the NH problem stares us in the face with the 6N. No disrespect to Italy, who are capable of playing world class rugby in spells, but it's clear that automatic entry into a one league competition isn't helping them much (despite the commentators and pundits continually trying to gaslight us to the contrary).
As an American who follows all sports, including leagues from across the world, I have to say you are spot on. The NFL has the most parity of any American sports league. Rugby is a beautiful sport, but its predictability makes it slightly less appealing. However, if Pacific island nations, along with South American and African nations, become dominant, then the future is bright for Rugby Union. However, Rugby league might eventually move even past Union if the Pacific Island nations begin winning League World Cups and NRL continues to grow.
The Nrl is in Vegas in March you should check it out.
Really interesting! Though not sure the NFL is the exact fit as a fix due it being solely a club competition, versus the duality of Rugby as a Global/International game as well as a domestic club product, with the money and main focus on the former rather than the latter. Still, you're right that WR needs to try to convince the bigger teams of the benefits of change for long term gain.
No doubt someone will enlighten me as to the reasons why this can't happen, but to grow the game, World Rugby needs to take a leaf out of (horrors) Football's book and institute regional International competitions every 2nd year there is not a World Cup...e.g. a proper European Championship, Oceanic Championship, American, Asian and so on. With group qualifiers for both these competitions and the World Cup in the 18 months prior to each championship, ala football, it would allow the international teams (like Georgia, Fiji, etc.) to compete on a more regular basis with the bigger teams in their regions almost annually. While it would mean the end of the summer tours/Autumn Internationals (and Lions prob), scheduled right they don't have to interfere with either the 6Ns or the Rugby Championship keeping those traditions intact.
Yep. Agree. Although I can't help thinking that's a way to try to achieve something closer to the ideal but could exacerbate some issues - players playing more games for example. It needs a blank sheet of paper.
100% there needs to be these regional competitions. Like it’s all great having the 6 nations and then rugby Europe’s tournaments but if there was euros tournament every 4 years that would be so much better at growing rugby across the continent. Similar things could definitely be done in South America and the pacific. However there is no way you can have qualifiers in between lol, pointless games in absolutely every way. You’d just put the 6 nations in automatically and probably all 8 in the current rugby Europe championship automatically as well and then just get the top 2 from the third division
The only thing is that would as you said accelerate the death of the international tours, which are I feel an important, and also a hugely popular part of rugby, the biggest problem is that exposure is hampered when all these competitions are put behind a pay wall. That's the true reason the 6Nations is so much more popular than most competitions, because it's unbelievably easy to follow, in terms of the teams (they are the same every year) the format is straighforward, and all the games are free to air. Making Georgia, Fiji etc. more competitive is a high cost, low reward scenario, as they will add very little to the finances of the sport, people don't really care about seeing loads of competitive teams, they mostly care about seeing their team being competitive (obviously to a point, more competition is always good, but if it comes at the cost of another side, that could hurt the sports popularity there, just look at Australia, where a minor downturn has lead to a major downturn in popularity, the Ireland soccer team being another example). Just my thoughts.
@@EggchasersRugby You may not end up with more games however. For instance, if you take out the 2/3 summer games on tour and subsequent 3 Autumn Internationals out of the calendar, and replace them with Continental Championship/World Cup qualifying matches (each team being drawn in a qualifying group of 4), even if you play both home and away you pretty much end up with the same number of International games (6 max) in the qualifying years, with the Continental Championship or the World Cup in the other two years. The downside would be the reduction of NH/SH clashes to just World Cup years.
@@jakeclough8090 Maybe so, and I agree that is what we would likely have for the first few years, but what a lot of the other teams complain about (certainly in Europe) is that they don't get the chance to play the big guns rarely if at all. As it stands we only get those teams at the World Cup anyway, this gives them the chances to play Tier 1 teams more frequently and, have the big teams travel to their country for qualifiers, affording scope for broadening exposure of the game, bringing in revenue, and allowing them to compete/test themselves more frequently, which is what all teams need to succeed.
Great video with some fantastic thoughts. I do agree that the least the game needs is a "world calendar," but collaboration has to be the way forward. It would be great to have a two tiered 6 nations to give countrys hope and a reason to invest in the sport at a grassroots level. I still think a two-tier six nations would need a playoff against tier 1 woodenspoon and tier 2 winners so we are not down greatlding the tier one competition. The international game is the big seller for rugby, so make the domestic game evolve around it and work with internationals. I think if Georgia, Romania, Spain etc. Had a competition that directly affected the 6 nations then we as supporters would be more interested and therefore their players coming into the premiership would be additionally more interesting. But would also mean the england players who want the cash in france can go and we can have a great competative league. Just some additional thoughts.
Yeah there is a 2nd tier 6 nations just without the promotion/relegation because it would be pointless
@@jakeclough8090 i disagree, the problem is: there is not the promotion relegation which would give the second tier teams some hope and something to aim for. if they had a target as i mentioned the general public would support their national team and get people wanting to play and therefore money would filter down to grass roots. then if you had a playoff as suggested then the 6 nations competition would still have the better of the teams take part the following year. it would add interest to the second tier and be exciting for the woodenspoon team that they actually have something to play for. i would also suggest that the line up of the 6 nations even with my idea would not change for 10 or 15 years but hope is a powerful thing. if you have more feedback to my suggestion other than "it would be pointless" i would love to discuss further.
@@Hay_good_lookin yes of course I’ll explain to you why all that is pointless. Having a promotion and relegation will do absolutely nothing to improve the hype around the tournaments or the quality of the lower teams. First of all, the general public aren’t going to all become super fans of rugby with the slight chance, and that chance is about 0.5% except for maybe Georgia, of going into the 6 nations in a niche sport they don’t really watch, you’ll get exactly the same attendances and hype you currently get. The teams in the current rugby Europe championship already have a lot to play for. Not just their careers and the most important part of their own careers but also World Cup spots are decided in that competition. And then even if there was promotion and relegation, the odd year of having Georgia in the 6 nations and then to be replaced by Italy again the year after isn’t going to improve Georgia because it doesn’t give them time to get up to the standard, look how long it’s taking Italy, although they are getting there. Instead having promotion and relegation would just destroy Italian rugby which is not many years off getting to where it could be. Their youth team is competitive, Benetton their club side is getting better each year and I’m sure zebre will soon as well, and the national team has a lot of potential right now, it’s just very very young. So promotion and relegation would kill Italy financially, standard of rugby wise and popularity wise and not help georgia or the others much if they go up for a year. Now if you wanted to add Georgia or another permanently, that’s a different issue. Would definitely be more beneficial than promotion and relegation for that one team, however there are still issues. It has to be Georgia really because they’re by far the next best but no one really wants to watch Georgia, at least not the large causal fan base rugby needs to win. Georgia has no historical or cultural ties to the 6 nations countries, they’re far away from the rest of the 6 nations countries, they’re not a very wealthy country and they’re not very big population wise, so the interest in their fixtures outside the hardcore rugby fans would be minimal, especially in the second and third years and hence the money generated from having them in there isn’t worth them adding sadly. Also you get the problem that there are too many games for players and they get too tired, or clubs aren’t happy their best players miss another week due to the 7 nations at that point. It just doesn’t make sense. Why tamper with the 6 nations unless you know it’s worth it. If Spain got like quite good at rugby in the next 10-20 years and it got a bit more popular they’d be ideal to put in but it’s not going to happen that quickly I doubt. But 2nd tier nations do need to play the top ones, I would improve these teams by having them play one or two internationals every summer and autumn against tier 1 sides like England, Ireland, New Zealand, Fiji, Italy etc so teams like chile, Hong Kong, Uruguay, Romania, Spain, Netherlands etc etc get regular fixtures each year against the best and can get to that standard. I’d also add a rugby euros in so there’s a new prestigious tournament in Europe to get these nations and fans excited. I’d have the top 16 best teams in, so the 6 nations, the 8 in the rugby Europe championship and then the 2 next best in the division below that, so This wouldn’t just be a slight chance to play in the 6 nations, this is a tournament where they’re guaranteed to play, against some of the best teams and they will actually be able to compete. I’d do this every 4 years, in between rugby world cups so 2025, 2029 etc. So overall these teams get 2-4 tier 1 fixtures every year, a rugby euros tournament which is exciting and a big event where they are a part of it and can compete but also play the best, their own level championship continues and also work with them forming clubs sides that compete in the challenge cup e.g. Lisbon, Madrid, Barcelona, Amsterdam, Tbilisi etc and all this combined will build the fans and excitement. Then you don’t have to tamper with the 6 nations in the short term which in its current model is extremely successful, and maybe in 10-20 years when other teams have got to the tier 1 standard you can then explore the option of promotion and relegation
Hi Jake, thank you for your very in depth reply. I agree with all your points and i think that would be a better approach. I like the idea of a european competition that would get the tier 2 teams facing up with tier 1 and autumn internationals with tier 2 teams. Great suggestion and well explained. Hope you did not think i was being a twat with my previous reply. Have a good one
@@jakeclough8090 sorry please see my reply above :)
As it’s now a year later do you think there has been any change at all or are we still in a mess. Has anything change anywhere in the sport?
I like the way the EPL is worked wear you get small teams like Portsmouth every once in a while beating giants like manchester united. it makes the victories waaay sweeter.
Portsmouth fans will be furious ahaha, but to be serious you can’t compare the two. As a lover of both games, you just can’t get the upsets in rugby which you do in football. The nature of the game makes it a lot harder for upsets in rugby to happen, and that makes it even more important that the competition is tight
@@jakeclough8090 I wouldn't be surprised though if Fiji beat Australia in the group stages of the world cup.
@@trent3727 perhaps but it’s not really a Portsmouth beating United it’s more Brentford or Brighton right now beating United. Much smaller financially and number wise but still a pretty decent team with well known players. If Portugal in that group were to beat Australia, now that’s Portsmouth beating United
2 basics things that few nations are respecting.
First : build business unit based on of local/loyal fans and local rugby school. No flying franchise.
Second : create a representative organisation of these business unit which sets some rules to limit the "weapon race" between them (salary cap, sanity check, ...). T
I am not sure comparing Rugby to NFL is really a very apples to apples comparison. One is exclusively a club game where as the other is a game where the ultimate goal is to represent your country. The, all pulling in the same direction is a good point and uniting the "clans" as it were, would be great but the demographic of the player base is very different. League, at least here in Australia is a very working class game where as Union is seen as a private school boy affair. To unite would require a huge undertaking that I think can never happen. Now on comparisons, it should really be like Association Football (Soccer if you will) where yes there are huge leagues but the ultimate goal is represent your country and win a world cup. Rugby is constantly hamstringing its club game for national teams and vice versa, where as you say, they want to protect their little slice and cant see the bigger pitcure. United deconflicted calendars should be made much like Football has done (I know its not always great) where players focus on international games during international breaks.
Totally agree. NFL may have 32 teams but they have a huge population compared to rugby playing nations. English football has 92 professional teams for a population of 70 million! Whereas England rugby is largely restricted to rugby loving areas and therefore is not as popular (other than match days at Twickenham) at club level than football therefore the commercial and gate receipts are lower. Some 4th tier football teams get larger crowds than the top tiers in rugby.
American Football is not competitive globally so is confined to a single competition in one country therefore is much easier to manage from top down without the numerous competitions and organisations getting in each others way.
I don't see how League and Union can come back together, the two are too different now, only the backs can really be adaptable to both.
It could probably work in England because the Super league has been in a huge decline but I don't think in Australia it would go down well to change anything, NRL is massive in the east coast and it's the number 1 sport in the coutnry for TV numbers.
But there is no international competitions and so no conflict for players commitments in the NFL. In short nobody is there to pull in any other direction.
I love your idea of turning the 6 nations into an A and B league structure or maybe a world league with east and west devisions.
Three seperate issues here. Domestic club rugby, the National side, and International World rugby are very different things.
I'd start with domestic UK rugby and National management which are currently both disasters. IMO we need an UK (British Lions group) Super competition to replace the current club structure which is overbloated and underfunded- basically too many non profit expenses- management, properties etc. sucking out cash and what is there is spread too thin as we can see from Wasps, Worcester and the reduction in the salary cap forcing player to go overseas
Ireland has 4 regions already, Wales and Scotland can probably support 2 each, England maybe 3- North , South and London. These regions would be responsible for supplying the 4 National sides involved with International players. They would be funded by advertising, sponsors, ticket sales, TV rights and central player contracts. This would provide a world class competition in its own right but most importantly expose the best players to regular international level competition raising the player performance.
Ultimately the better the National side does the better the domestic game does. We saw this 2003, you can see it NZ anbd RSA and even the Lionesses have recently shown how success breeds success.
If I were handed a black sheet of paper this is along the lines of what I would do too.
Great video
but a tiny nit-pick
What you have in the background there is the Australian Football League logo which still exists today, not the American Footbal League logo
Make it the 7 Nations by adding Georgia but also promotion/relegation with the REC.
Add Japan and Fiji to the Rugby Championship and operate on a 6 Nations format with.
24 teams in the world cup.
Form a connection between Champions Cup, Super Rugby, Americas Club Rugby and Japan League One. Club World Cup Cup or Superbowl style.
Have the summer tests in Northern Hemisphere and November in Southern Hemisphere to optimise sunshine rugby.
Hello
I agree with everything you have said about Rugby Union
The CEO's heads of all the Rugby Unions , Scotland , England , Wales , Ireland and Italy (6 Nation's) should start up a Second Division of the 6Nation's and have Playoffs and a grand Final between both Divisions or have Promotion and Relegation .
The second one you were talking about the World of Rugby take a leaf out of the NFL Book and bring all the Rugby Unions around the Globe 🌎 together and sing of the same hymn sheet , now what I think if they can do that the Game of Rugby will be bigger than the NFL and have alot more Cash in the pocket and grass root Rugby would be the better and grow talent for the Professional game . And have one major broadcast on tv and air that is just what I think . Look at the URC and what they have started they have South Africa joined and now South Africa are know in the EPCR Heineken Champion Cup and Challenge Cup that after the URC sat down and have talks and it worked , as we all know the Super Rugby are now wishing they didn't kick out South Africa as the saying , their lose is our Gian
Rugby is a global sport though (even though us is pretty large) so the business model is apples to oranges.. or at least far more complicated than this video can go into
New ideas are not a bad thing though
Field Hockey is also a global sport and a much bigger sport than rugby but as a professional game no one watches. Rugby union could be heading to that future
Just a thought and info from south africa. Here we have what is called the big 3 unions : stormers sharks and bulls it is where the money is. Some seasons those unions have up to 20 of the first choice flankers with half getting no game time. What a nfl type draft with equal budget wouldnt do for the other S A unions. As we have an abundance of talent.
SA rugby went from a very vibrant national comp in the Currie Cup with talent spread at many provinces to now only having 5 elite teams and begging to be in the URC a comp that cant even make more revenue than the Azerbaijan Soccer League, Mexican baseball and Bangladesh cricket. Daniel Craven would be rolling in his grave if he saw the state of SA rugby today.
I think it's a good idea to say in principle the issue as I see it is that the NFL basically decided to sacrifice international gridiron football for club gridiron. Like once you leave the NFL and go to say, Canada, where the game originally may have began the CFL is vastly inferior. The ELF in Europe is further again. All American football is centralised in America even though there's interest and players from around the world now.
But it gets worse, they won't play for their country. The big American sports like baseball, ice hockey, American football and basketball all have international tournaments but they're basically unheard of because club is king. Like the WBC this year for baseball was considered absolutely wild because it had a whole 2 big names from the USA. If you look at Canada in ice hockey they have a world cup too but the NHL makes sure it has its playoffs on around the same time so the best players in the world don't go. Again club over country.
I don't think an NFL style solution will fix world rugby. It can definitely help England or Wales and Scotland as the Irish approach is somewhat similar to the Americans (highly centralised governance) but I worry it'll mean we either see club or country suffer for the other to succeed.
If we were to just go for it then maybe the best option would be for the six nations teams and the rugby championship teams to create two large leagues with a set number of teams. Adding countries with preset numbers of clubs as time goes on. Hell you could even have regional conferences. Say in the six nations you'd have the islands conference and the continental conference.
You are also bang on the money about media deals though, having collective media deals with all access and even the whole micing up stuff would be very cool to see done in rugby.
What a great response!
Agree! Take the principle and the parts that could work. Much of the parallel is too far gone.
There's also a trend in the NFL where franchises deliberately tank an entire season so they can have the first pick in the draft usually it's a quarterback.
Joining the Premiership and URC (minus South Africa) makes far more sense than South Africa staying in the URC, even though they have greatly improved the quality of the product.
Stop messing with the Heineken Cup go back to the way it was before covid.
As for joining League and Union back up together maybe in England where league is popular, but in Ireland theres little if any interest in the league code, i didn't even know the World Cup was taking place until Michael Cheika was questioned about it after the England vs Argentina game.
Finally please please don't let World rugby anywhere near the 6 Nations if anyone can they'll find a way to screw it up.
@@hamiltonsmith8371 absolutely a lot of these would work but I think there is an easy fix for the draft actually. The NHL does a draft lottery where your final position influences but doesn't guarantee your pick. Thus tanking is disincentivised but bad teams still get the chance to get better.
@@Gallalad1 In theory that's a good idea but trying to convince let's say Leinster who's whole financial, structural and playing model is based around developing young players from schools across the province, promoting them into the Leinster academy and then making sure they get playing time. I'm not sure people outside of Ireland appreciate how loyal players are to their own province.
Why would Leinster bother to continue developing these players if their not going to benefit from them and in turn why would the IRFU sign up for anything that threatens the main reason for the current Irish set up. We only have to look at the state of the Irish Women's team to see what happens when there's no schools development happening
I know F1 fans aren't the biggest fan of drive to survive but it's bringing eyes on the sport I wonder how much the upcoming Six Nations and World Cup series will get eyes on Rugby. Also the Prem having this BT deal where only a small number of games are shown isn't helping things. Prem rugby TV has helped things but they need one or the other where all games are televised
A pretty good synopsis of the NFL. As an American who grew up on the sport, their over all competence is something other sports should be trying to emulate. The games occur from September to February, but for 30% of Americans it is a year round sport.
Bring in an IRFU draft from the schools/clubs
The English pro game/premiership in particular has a lot to answer for in terms of the commercial state of rugby. The overreach was near fatal and COVID just made it obvious.
I think it's a bit optimistic to think that rugby can emulate NFL. Rugby's professionalism is wafer thin. There's a lot of risks with change.
One thing I'd like to see is a 7nations: with a 7th nation qualifier/invite (Georgia usually) annually from the Rugby Europe Championship winner. 6nations keep their permanent position. Top teams would be able to use the game Vs the 7th nation as a development match for the squad so wouldn't hugely impact the tournament...but would give Italy or teams not doing well...someone to beat at least. 7th nation slightly expands the TV revenue possibly and their players get to play top tier nations. Plus it makes the rugby Europe Championship more meaningful.
Nah that’s a waste of time, just letting one nation get hammered each year and then be replaced the next year isn’t going to do anything for morale or entertainment and tv audience or stadium attendance
@@jakeclough8090 like...Italy? Georgia Vs Italy annually (and every 2-3 yrs Vs a poorly performing team like Wales this year) would be a real contest and a valuable addition. Plus Georgia Vs 2nd string France/Ireland etc would be worth a watch.
@@rahimoneill7294 yes like Italy but the difference with Italy is that they don’t have to worry about next year, they know they have time to improve at their own pace. They’ve also had 20 years to build up to the level. The improvement is coming, they are getting better, they competed in every game this year, their youth side is regularly mid table, you can’t do that with a seventh team letting them stay up a year or two and then be replaced. It’s the same 7 or just 6 in my opinion. And Georgia isn’t a very profitable country to add, it’s small and not very well off. Plus the fact there are no historical and cultural ties and rivalries with the current 6 nations like they have with each other. The best team to add would be a Spain really, or a Portugal/Netherlands/Belgium/Germany but they can’t because Georgia are better than them and it’s unfair. But if Spain were in georgias position right now I can tell you we’d have a 7 nations. And for your other point, no one wants to see a Georgia v Ireland B. Most Irish rugby fans don’t and most Georgian rugby fans won’t want that insult, only die hard rugby fans would be interested in watching that and although we are great, its the causal fans rugby needs to win over
I realise now I have spend my life with a delusion, thinking professional rugby is much stronger than it really is. I shared this delusion with millions of other people.