How figure skating scoring rewards risk over artistry
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- čas přidán 12. 02. 2018
- The new figure skating scoring system is complicated and controversial. Here's how it works.
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At the Pyeongchang 2018 Winter Olympics, Mirai Nagasu became the first American woman to land a triple axel in an Olympic event, just the third woman ever to accomplish this feat. She failed to cleanly land the same jump at the 2018 US Figure Skating Championship, in San Jose California, but she still received 6.07 points for the jump, almost two points more than her teammate's perfect double axel, which received 4.09 points. Figure skating score is complicated, and the new scoring system has changed how competitors skate. But how does it work?
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One correction: a double axel is not a “slightly simpler jump” than a triple axel (around 2:54). The difference is BIG. Plenty can do double axels in their sleep while I think only 8 women have landed it in competition.
Grace Hudson false. Maybe 8 people in the us, however in junior and even novice competitions, the asian and Russian girls are attempting it.
Jeungri Oppa Attemping doesn’t equal landing.... 🤦🏻♀️
@@jeungrioppa5937 While they may be attempting it that doesn't mean they can land it
Jeungri Oppa many people can land it, but not in competition. Many people can attempt it, but not land it. If you can only very rarely land it and are still attempting it you’re not doing anything close to successfully landing it in competition.
Jeungri Oppa actually they were correct only 2 woman from the US have landed it in competition attempting and landing are 2 completely different things so actually now the number is 9
I’m still not over how Kim Yuna was robbed in broad daylight
velvet wynn I will never get over of that injustice :(
Araceli •Chely• smh most of the judges always favor their own country *cough cough* Russia
velvet wynn It was indeed a very sad day for figure skating 😢
Same thing is happening in Korea in this year’s Winter Olympics too. Any judge from any country can be corrupt.
vivs You are wrong, in figure skating in Korea the results so far have been FAIR, nothing like Sochi, where the results were manipulated without remorse.
People are talking about Yuzu's artistry over Chen's difficulty in jumps, but honestly, that's not even the issue. Yuzu's skates are just so much cleaner and better refined then Nathan's. It's not only about the artistry and emotion, but Yuzu's programs just flow so effortlessly and connect every single element so well whereas, with Nathan's, I just feel like I'm watching jumps with filler between and it appears messy. Besides that, I do think Nathan has really quite improved on his artistry. But as others have stated, Nathan's landings aren't always the cleanest for the points in execution he receives. Not that Yuzu's is completely flawless, but his skate overall is put together so much better.
💯 one hundred percent agreed. Rather than cramming difficult elements yuzu refines whatever he does and tht makes it look so effortless
Absolutely agree!! Yuzuru skates like he would be from another planet!..
So true. With Yuzu the whole skate program is so enjoyable. Take away the jumps and they will still be more beautiful and enjoyable than many other who go for only jumps
Yuzuru has far more difficult entires in and out of his jumps too that are overlooked in scoring. Nathan is pretty much a jumping powerhouse who will spend half his program skating around in circles then doing a jump and eventually a step sequence later in the program. Yuzuru fully integrates his jumps into the middle of his step sequences and does difficult entries and does jumps with his arms over his head. Yuzuru doesn't just execute his jumps, he also makes them difficult to replicate because his very light/lean body significantly advantages him in his sport.
That's why I love gala performances, it's not about getting points, it's just about art. There's nothing mora perfect and divie than Yuzuru's "Haru yo, Koi" perfomance
Yes. And his gala performance in the 2018 Olympics.
scoring is just so subjective. l was a competitive gymnast for years, and the scorers were always unpredictable.
lexamazing
Okay
if the current scoring system was used in the 90s. Surya Bonaly would have bagged every medal. racial animosity was sooooo obvious. she got frustrated with it .this is the reason why a lot of black girls are not trying it with this sport
She would have gotten more medals, but let's not exaggerate. She was technically strong but not always technically strongest.
Ok I believe you.
She was strong tehnicky, but still artistic values were lower then in others.
Artistry is why I would put Yuzuru Hanyu over Nathan Chen any day, at least for now. Don't get me wrong, Nathan is an excellent jumper, his movements are almost flawless but his performances lack the feels. Yuzuru, on the other hand, always attempts to put the emotional impact above all (while setting records at the same time).
Anna Trinh id choose Yuzu just bc he actually has great landings, how many times did Nathan skate cleanly without visible error. Yuzu did sometimes make error but not as often as Nathan, i guess we’ll have to wait if Nathan can overcome the pressure.
The thing is, emotional effects are entirely objective. You might find Yuzuru's skating more touching than Nathan's, but some people don't and there's nothing wrong with that.
Same gurl watching yuzutu skate make me emotional his program is well made both in technical and artistry. When i first saw nathan 5 quad program it looks so messy i am glad for the olympic he will reduce it to 4 quad
Miti66 technicality can be judged objectively. Artistry cannot.
That's subjective. Take Tonya Harding for instance, who was never the most artistic or graceful. But she was extremely powerful, pulled off crazy high jumps, and her emotions were always transparent in her skating. When I look at Tonya's videos, I always feel that surge of accomplishment and bliss when she pulls off the incredibly difficult, like you're in the moment with her. It completely unlike those very serious, artistic skaters who I feel isolated from. It's like their emotions are hidden and private, and that I am merely there to witness the performance strictly as an observer. I feel nothing for them.
Yuzuru Hanyu blends the jumps and artisty so well. That's why he's the king
His artistry is a lot of thrashing around-not particular nice to watch. The Spaniard combined technique with artistry.
sedekiman r I'm sorry the scoreboard and the media doesn't seem to agree.
Take a look at the skaters of the past there u will see technique and artistry. Even the commentator here says that artistry is being lost and why don't the media disagree? because they don't want to rock the boat. Even the quad is ugly especially how they are landed-no long edges and extensions. And it seems the more difficult a skater makes their programme look the higher the reward.
sedekiman r Can you please take a look at Yuzu's skating first? Even veterans acknowledge him of his artistry and jumps! He melts the two elements so well. Do you still want me to give you the veterans who said that?
I watched his whole performance and to me his artistry is not good. It does not have to be so frenetic all the time some quiet moments would so help his performance in this area. Look at John Curry on you tube. Not a quad in sight but triples and such finesse and elegance which sadly has been lost. Look at all the clips of his performances. Yes I would be interested in the veterans opinions but if it is Johnny Weir not so much!!
this is to keep the sport from being stagnant, and the consistent top of the top need to balance both technical athleticism and artistry. Take Yuzuru Hanyu and Yuna Kim, expression and musicality masters on top of their great skating skills.
Hanyu in my humble opinion, has been underscored several times...
Ram875 for example, his WR in Worlds 2017..... People calculated and saw that he was underscored, heck even the Italian commentators said the PCS was a scandal the moment they saw it!!! He deserved higher...
BUT it proves that Yuzu can still be on the top despite being underscored
@@brettshair3151 Yup and most of his jumps matched all the criteria for a +3 which he didn't get whereas other skaters at the event got +3 for jumps that were at most slightly inferior to his. If you watch his jumps from H&L at the 2017 Worlds, it doesn't get better than that. Underscored indeed.
@@manuefige YES. Plus his sp was also underscored. That back counter 3A... Was damn underscored and I'm pissed...
And now, they're bullshitting him more than ever and I need an outlet
He needs his true and proper scores. Same with the other skaters.
@@brettshair3151 Yup, it adds so much difficulty to enter an axel from this step, I can't even begin to imagine what it must be like for a 3A lmao. Let's ask the other skaters to do it and see who succeeds, I'm betting... not many lol
"Omg why is vox obsessed with figure skating lately?!"
You realize we're going through the '18 Olympics and that figure skating is probably the most popular, right? If they're picking this particular sport, it's because it's playing a major role in pop-culture/news rn.
Doc I enjoy this series a lot. I like to watch figure skating once in a while, but many things in the sport, I still have no clue about. It makes it accessible for new audiences. That's a good thing I think!
girl you look like a younger Tonya harding. Good on ya
Nati Whatever I'm all for it, especially this one because this scoring system has seemed so screwy to me for years. I'm loving this. XD
Maybe they watched Yuri On Ice.
the thing is, they're so focused with American figure skater (of course). So sad that they seems forgot figure skaters from other nation that worth covering and just focusing on their own country's athlete
>Talks about female figure skaters
>no mention of Kim Yuna
>k
Not everything on this planet is about Yuna Kim. Not even everything in women's figure skating is about Yuna Kim. She is AMAZING, but there are other pioneers and great people in the sport.
@thegreendestiny i think her main strength was the artistry and emotions carried in her performance. But, at the same time, her jumps were TEXTBOOK PERFECT. At this age where soo many skaters attempt and "jump quads" and etc (most of them are pre rotated, wrong edge etc), her jumps should be appreciated.
>Talks about ladies 3A
>Doesn't metion Mao
>bruh
It’s a video on an American website, featuring American skaters. Shrug.
Not mention the tutberize team
I still remember that debacle in Sochi. To me Yuna still won gold
LowLight For the mayority of the world she did :')
I love Nathan Chen, but he is a pain to watch compared to Yuzuru Hanyu. He has no artistry, where Yuzu's programs are a pleasure to watch.
X X Y even tho nathan chen has many jump, his gap score to yuzuru just 9 (mind you, USA really put so much score to him and underscore yuzu). And yuzu really tone down his jump to focuse of performance
Vega Hwang even with only four quads, Yuzuru got the highest fs score
Stop, yuzurus artistry is great and all but it's overrated. As a guy, he lacks masculine features in his performances. Sometimes his arms seem to flop and lack strength. If he didn't thrash his arms at times, then we're talking.
Gutsie ButterScoop he has to be masculine??
Nathan is a beautiful skater. He just beat Yuzu by 45 (!) points. All of those judges must be waaayyyy wrong. They should've asked for your help
Nathan Chen achieved emphatic wins over Yuzuru Hanyu and even Yuzuru himself said that he respects Nathan and he's happy that "someone I want to surpass has appeared again". Nathan also called Yuzuru "an icon for my practice", "the biggest challenge of all", "a skating god", etc. Yuzuru's skating is the definition of artistry, his manoeuvres is extraordinary while Nathan is an amazing athlete, who is full of strength and techniques with powerful jumps. Nathan understands he just can't beat Hanyu at artistry so he worked on technical element scores and it pays off. Nathan's multiple quad jumps are precisely defined.
However, it's not like Yuzuru slept on his artistry and gave up at technical scores. Yuzuru acknowledges his weakness and responded to public that he's training with his utmost effort to execute 4A. It's not just about competition, performing 4A flawlessly is one of his dream and he said "I'm going to make it a reality for sure". Nathan knew it and said he will fight back by "up the quad counts" or skate very clean with with 4-5 quads.
In my opinion, Nathan is a successful figure skater and he may beat Hanyu again anytime soon. Unfortunately, his quad-fueled programs can only win the scores from judges but not the heart of the audiences. Just search "Nathan Chen" on CZcams and you can see all of his performance videos have low views. Searching for interviews from other non-American skaters when they were asked about Nathan Chen, the most common answer would be "the quad jumper". On the other hand, Yuzuru, no matter if he win or lose, people are still enraptured by his magical performance. His skating is like a work of art, mesmerises both the professional skaters and the one who don't even know how to skate.
Both Nathan Chen and Yuzuru Hanyu are exceptional talented but with completely different mind set. Yuzuru said he is born to skate and being able to surpass his ideal self in skating is his all-consuming pursuit. In contrast, Nathan said he's not going to skate forever and he has to prepare for the next step of his life. He's now a pre-med student in Yale university, balancing his study and his training simultaneously. While Nathan said him spending everyday just doing skating doesn't allow him to enjoy the sport as much as he should, Yuzuru said he's constantly think of skating in almost every moment of his daily life and enjoy it.
They live their ways and their distinguished life strategies fit each of them the most. I feel lucky to be able to witness both of them growth.
Just like Michelle Kwan and Tara.
This system is SO flawed. People who fall down or touch ice doing quads or triples should NOT be getting higher points than skaters who deliver flawless triples and doubles.
kaduzy Amen! I prefer clean skate and gracefulness than difficult program with flaws like falling. Also the judges are blind coz they cant see the right edges.
Too bad that they focused on jump jump and jump these day
Agreed.
Yes but if that were the case, everyone would still be jumping singles and doubles. There has to be some reward for risk otherwise the score would not evolve. That's why there is -3 mandatory deduction for falls in GOE. And also why under rotations and downgrade are so heavy, because it takes a lot of be able to rotate a quad (or triple) and that should be rewarded. If they weren't, you'd have Carolina Kostner doing a full double jump program and while it may be beautiful, it makes it no longer athletic, and figure skating is a sport after all.
They already do that by rewarding the jumps with so many bonus points, especially if done in the back half of the program. But it's not balanced, because currently the reward comes with no real risk. Nathen Chen literally just did a series of quads; his program had almost zero artistry whatsoever, and he got the highest score in long program male figure skating history. Deducting more points for falls will force the skaters to really perfect their programs instead of just being able to randomly decide to throw another quad in there at the last minute like Chen did, just to earn extra points. It's bananas that the best skaters in the world who won gold and silver are also skaters who fell on the ice attempting quad jumps while skaters who skate clean and skate beautifully have no chance of getting the top prize just because they're more focused on perfection and true artistry than on packing their program with quads just to get points.
Kim Yuna is the gold standard for technicality and artistry, but don't forget the Japanese female skaters who are just as well rounded. Mao Asada, Satoko Miyahara, and Mai Mihara are just some of the few that I can name. Sure their jumping techniques aren't as good, but they skate like true figure skaters. It's not just that artistry isn't rewarded enough, it's that it's being awarded to the WRONG skaters. I'm still trying to wrap my head around how someone like Kaetlyn Osmond has been placed above Satoko in terms of PCS twice this season. And everyone knows that Bradie was overscored in the PCS for nationals and the team event. The Japanese skaters have been ROBBED of the points they deserve even though they work so hard to deliver a performance and a program.
Yuna Kim would be in 5th place today behind ladies doing more difficult jumps and better artistry. Get with the times.
@@plumeria66 difficult jumps. laughable! maybe you mean pre rotated and wrong edges jumps! even though Yuna did not jump quads, I still prefer her textbook jumps than today's over prerotated and wrong edge jumps! so yeah, we can't get over! 😼😼😼
find someone who can do both with perfection... wait... Yuzuru Hanyu :D
As a complete figure skating moron I felt something was wrong when Sotnikova won the gold medal over Kim Yeon Ah. I have read all the arguments, but comparing the 2 routines... I can't help but conclude that Sotnikova didn't captivate me as much as Kim.
Artistry should really be valued more... unless Figure Skating actually prefer to be a pure athletic pursuit.
Sotnikova wasn’t even as athletic or technically better than Yuna Kim. All her lutz’s turned into a flutz and she didn’t execute any correct toe jumps (she turned it all into an edge jump). The Russian judges MASSIVELY inflated her points (she did the same gray dress program and worlds and got a significantly lower score). She even HUGGED one of the Russian judges that over scored her after!!! Yuna Kim was robbed by the ISU and it’s corrupt judging ‼️Yuna executed a perfect program with textbook lutzs like the queen she is. Yuna Kim basically won gold at every other competition and the Olympics once already. Sotnikova never did such a thing.. she didn’t win any big competitions before or after her Olympic gold 😔 this is not about Sotnikovas technicality, it’s about the corrupt (primarily Russian) judges. Yuna Kim deserves more than just a gold metal, she deserves a diamond crown 👑
I love Nathan Chen, but he is lacking (in my opinion) compared to Yuzuru Hanyu. He has very little artistry, where Yuzu's programs are a pleasure to watch. Even if Yuzuru has one less quad in his performance, I would rather watch him with his perfect landings and beautiful skating and spins all around than Nathan going back and forth trying to do quads for the points...
When I was a kid I remember ice skating being more theatrical, where artist had much more time to interpret the music with expressions and movements in between the jumps. They would where frilly costumes, and just be a total character. That’s what made it so entertaining to me when I was a child. Seeing it now... everyone almost looks uniform.
I think the judging system should penalize falls more heavily. Right now, it's only a single point off the score for a fall, and since you can get a score of around 80 in the short program and 170 in the long program, falls don't seem to matter that much. Even with the complicated math of the technical and performance score, the base value for those elements is so insane that a skater with a messy program but difficult elements can win over another with a perfectly clean and artistic program but simpler elements.
MC Wyman I agree, but there is actually more than a one point deduction. There is a mandatory one point deduction for any fall, but a fall on a jump/spin/footwork sequence will ALSO incur a -3 on the grade of execution. So it’s not a deduction per se, but the skater earns less points on the element. It’s still not enough points off to dissuade skaters from trying jumps they can’t land though
Don't forget though, because some triples/quads are so much harder, the chance of full rotation is very low. If there is under rotation the jump will count as a double with all of the deductions still in place. In cases like this, clean doubles would be a safer bet than an attempt at cheated triple with a fall.
Josie Allen lol I’m still novice and I get a 0.5 deduction 😂😂
No you need to reward risk skating has gotten boring and no one cares about it anymore. You want the spotlight and the money let them go hard. If we wanted ballet we could watch that.
During the 2018 Pyeongchang Olympics, Mirai Nagasu became the first American woman to land a triple axel in an Olympic competition. Read more about the historic move: bit.ly/2suyYs0 and learn why the triple axel is such a big deal: bit.ly/2oGrA7N
Vox: your video about how triple axel is such a big deal, is useless. You don´t show anything, don´t explain anything, it is all cut, you talk about Tonya and Nancy problem and put a Barbie doll I don´t know why. Please people, don´t waste 5 minutes of your life watching a nonsense video.
there's issues with this video too. Saying Chen landed 5 quads for the first time at four continents is not correct he did it a few weeks earlier at US nationals. he landed 5 quads for the first time in INTERNATIONAL competition at four continents. and btw, despite the French judge the Russian pair deserved the gold medal. And under the new scoring system they still would have won.
Why do biathlon players salivate so much at the end?
Vox I
The triple axel is not a big deal. Men do it all the time. It's only a big deal if you're sexist, and think that when a woman performs an ordinary feat it's suddenly worth of praise and worship.
As long as the ISU has a favorite. No matter how one skater tries so hard and does a clean skate. If not a favorite, not gonna get the gold.
Thea Brasileno *cough cough* Evgeniia Medvedeva *cough cough*
*cough* the whole US team *cough*
Aqila Y are you a moron??? i think you meant the whole *Russian Team* they even say something about it in this video !
Thea Brasileno Honestly I'm usually the type who hates throwing around accusations of bias, but from the competitions I've watched it's clear that there's Russian favoritism. I've seen time and again Russian skaters who had poor artistry and failed portions in their routine score higher than other skaters who had clean routines around the same technical level. I'm surprised that judges aren't called out more often on their biases, because they aren't even trying to hide it.
JoJiJoJo not any more. It's Alina now. That's not any better...
there's a difference between artistry and athleticism and seeing how the visually pleasing aspect is draining in performances- giving it up for quads or axels- its really sad to see, I think thats why yuzuru hanyu is really famous. He tells a story when skating, but some skaters of today just...skate with "jumps" -even if they do multiple hard jumps- its nice to see for that 3 seconds and then you really just forget about thats why I said just "jumps" because there's no meaning behind it and feels just vague and empty.
Well. FS died after Sochi. Except, Yuzuru on Pyeongchang.
As much as I admire the athleticism and difficulty of current routines, I would very much appreciate more diversity in the programs. A lot of them look the same nowadays, throwing as many jumps as possible into the little time they have on ice but basically dismissing transitions and footwork just doesn't have the same appeal to me, it gives a hacked off, jaggedy vibe. imo it's the details, the fluidity of the movements which complete the performance and add to its flow and aesthetic.Idk I'd wish for the judges to stop putting such major emphasis on jumps alone and _actually_ look at the overall skating program more.
K rina Watch yuzuru hanyu.. He'll save you from these people... Hahahaha..
K rina I agree. As much as I enjoy watching Nathan and Alina skate, their performances (especially Alina's for me) sometimes seem lacking. Nathan has an artistic side to him: his gala routines are super thrilling. But his competition programs tend to focus on his jumps too much. For alina, i think she needs some time and work on her artistic edge. Skaters such as Hanyu, Javier, Medvedeva, and Osmond might not be as good technically, but I find myself able to watch them several times because they combine artistry and technique. They pull at my emotions.
Lol. Hanyu is magnificent technically. (You should not put him in the same line as Medvedeva and Osmond aka the flutzers :3) Hanyu is the only skater who can perform quads out of complicated footworks with minimal preparation, and that itself is physically and technically demanding.
How is it possible to do a series on figure skating but not feature kim yuna????
Then Yuna Kim should've won gold medal in Sochi Winter Olympics in 2014...
이상현 she did
XxLOL9xX she didn't. She should have though
Had Yuna taken the same risky program as Sotnikova's then yes. But Yuna didn't
Yuri on Ass well she didn’t
Yuri on Ass should have won because Yuri said that? Come on! I am a fan of neither but Sotnikova obviously was an underdog and managed to outperform the forerunner. That counts in the eyes of judges. Always has been so. Yuna thought she had it all on the silver plate. That is not an attitude the great champions must have. Simply said, she did a B+ job while Sotnikova did an A- .
Yuzuru Hanyu.
Kim Yuna.
That’s it.
Yuzuru > Yuna. Yuzu has SELF RESPECT. He has NEVER insulted or disrespected his coach. YUNA KIM DID.
The problem are not the base value of each element. The problem is: corruption. ISU judges are biased that's obvious. They aren't scoring risk. They are choosing based on presumably "consistency" which is never mentioned in ISU guidelines. A skater should be graded on present performance.
Second risk is not enough. The elements should executed accordingly. If it's a triple-triple combo and instead perform a double it should be scored as that or even just deducted or dismissed. And that includes rightful take off edge and toe pick assitance if needed, air revolutions, proper running landing edge and free leg. As well as spins and skating skills which includes artistry. That's it. Judges and skaters are forgetting this sport is a combination of so many elements and that used to be what made figure ice skating so appealing for the audience. I pray that we all remember the true essence of this magnificent sport.
When i see hanyu... THATS MA BOI
That’s why the King is Yuzuru Hanyu and the Queen is Kim Yuna
The scoring is corrupted since 2014 after Yuna Kim was robbed of her 2nd olympic gold medal.
It's been corrupt since LONG before that.
XxLOL9xX ,the scoring 's corrupted since 2010. after Plushenko was robbed of his 2nd Olympics gold in Vancouver .He only had a quadruple jumps and beautiful LP ,but didn't win;because Evan Lysachek won without quad on his programs -such a shame !!!!!
@@nenavujicin7882 ,100 % agree with U !!!!
@@spicy_kitty7983 ,watching Lyshacek's Olympics program from this time distance and comparing it with Plu's all programs (and current skaters) ,it seems like a slow-mo drawing on ice. Ok ,you have a right to favor your US skater ,Lyshacek ,but have no right to degrade Plushy . Olympics in Vancouver was the biggest injustice .
@@spicy_kitty7983 , "overatted" ?????!!!!!! The first skater who landed quadruple jumps in combos ( 4T-3T-3L) "is just estremelly overatted" !!!!???? Yes ,you are exstremelly xenophobic person who can not stand successful of one (or anyone) russian skater . I'm not from Russia ,but i've noticed how much unfair and russophobic ppl from out of Russia are against russian skating school .Plushy was robbed in Vancouver ,this is a fact. Evan Elvis Stoiko ,famouse skater ,wrote article about it ( "The day when they killed figure skating") . Yuzuru and Nathan said in their interwievs that Plushy was their skating idol ,Yuzuru dedicated his "Origin" to Pl .,but probably you are better expert than Yuzuru and Elvis Stoiko are. So funny . Calm down with your russophobia ,please- this is figure skating (sport) not politics (i've noticed that ppl from U.S still live in Cold War period ,unlike ppl from Russia who are more multiethnic & multicultural ,so sad ).
Sorry general public, I get you think the new scoring system is ‘ruining’ skating, but the Yuna Kim Sochi situation was the judges’ fault, not the scoring system. It’s a sport, and it’s moving forward (kinda reaching it’s athletic peak too). Simpler jumps should not be reward more than fully rotated quads. Sorry.
Grace Hudson it’s not even the judges fault it’s the officials and refs fault for letting the Judging system to overscore. In synchronized skating the Refs need to know the ins and outs of the rules, the refs need to know when to call the judges out on their judging aka the Yuna and Alaina (I think that’s her name can’t really remember and don’t want to) scandal where Yuna should have won and when Alaina didn’t have the correct lutz entry, that’s what is supposed to happen.
yeah, technicians need to clan URs and flutzes and judges should award extra points to pcs categories like skating skills, composition/choreography, etc if the choreo is bad/lacks complexity or nuance and the skater doesn't use their edges or have skating skills
Ikr? I find this video an underhand attempt to justify Russian judges.
I think having three separate medals is really the way to go.
Basically (very crudely), in art in general, you have two methods to progress:
- crystalize (hone and perfect what you already know)
- grow (find new things to add to what you know)
It sounds like what is here considered artistic is more focused on crystalization, and the technical side more on growth, at least until you reach the limit of what's (deemed) possible. Which might be really close by now. (As explained in your other video)
Rewarding both separately and then again in a combined fashion is gonna be much fairer to either portion, I think.
Not quite sure how to ideally mix the two scores though. Could remain the way it is now, but I'm sure there could always be an argument for more tweaks.
The scoring of the individual sections on their own seems pretty fair at this point though.
agreed. one for technical and another one for artistic would be great. it kind of reminds me of school sports where one team is the winner, and another team gets a medal too for playing nice
I feel like none of this would be necessary if the execution of technical elements was valued more than the presence of the elements themselves in a program. If you butcher a quad, you shouldn't be able to benefit from having it in your program as much as is currently acceptable. Sure, we want to encourage skaters to grow and expand their horizons, but not at the expense of artistry and the integrity of their choreography! The solution they discuss in the video makes the most sense to me; even out the weighting of technical and execution scores and it's problem solved.
Eh, I honestly don’t really think separate medals is a good idea. One of the unique things about figure skating is that it combines artistry and athleticism into one score and one event. If you give separate medals, you’re going to have people specializing even more in one direction or the other, and maybe only some going for all around.
Asha, if you punish imperfect novelty too much that causes similar problems in the other direction. People will not really try to be unique. They'll try to go for the easiest stuff and nail it.
And you and tawnyflower both, I don't think there really is an objectively right balance between the technical and artistic scores. Conflating the two into one will inevitably cause problems, no matter what particulars you settle on.
And imagine getting the medal in all three categories. I think aiming for getting triple gold (or at least triple medals in one of 27 possible combinations) is gonna make for a rather nice reward.
No matter which system comes in, some athletes will do the math and figure out which combination will bring the highest score. That is the issue with any scoring system that is attempting to evaluate different things (technique, artistry in this case).
I love these skating related videos. Great job Vox!
This. The reason why i preferred Yuna Kim over Mao Asada despite the fact that Mao’s techniques were superior at times. Yuna’s artistry has no equal.While I agree that the sport should evolve, changing the scoring system alone may not suffice if the goal is to also limit subjecitivity. Implementing rules on who can serve as judges would better achieve that goal as if would prevent what happened at sochi in 2014, where three? russians with personal ties with the russian skating union and the competitors were allowed to serve as judges and judged unfairly in the russian skater’s favor. Besides, the beauty of figure skating is in the artistry, so what fun would it be if technicality overshadowed it?
smekn "The beauty of figure skating is in the artistry". This is one interpretation. I find the technical components much more compelling and would rather see a system that puts more emphasis on that.
The problem with such a subjective sport is that everyone interprets it differently.
smekn that’s what’s so amazing about this sport though. By haveing technicality be the focus we set a skill cap where everyone is striving attempting to obtain the greatest technical score but because there is a cap meaning if everysingle competetor went out and preformed the most technically perfect short or free skate then the winner would be determined by artistic values. It’s a system that forces competetors to be the peak of technicality while also trying to be a better artist than the other
Because Yuna is so artistic, people don't know how great is the technicality of Yuna. I always thought that the greatest art comes out after you master the technology. The fact tht Asada can jump tripple accels doesn't mean that she has better technicality than Yuna. Yuna makes it so easy, her technicalities are hidden behind the artistry.
I’d like to qualify your statement on Mao Asada and Yuna Kim. I find that Mao Asada possessed artistry at a similar level to Yuna’s, although I admit that it was at a lower level. However, Mao’s astounding and consistent technical abilities made up for that gap in artistry. Despite this, artistry is (or at least used to be?) valued more than technicality, which is why I believe Yuna constantly topped Mao in competitions (however, I am not an expert, so I may be generalizing or may be making erroneous judgements here). In my opinion, the beauty of figure skating comes from a balance of artistry and technicality, which is why I found both Yuna Kim’s and Mao Asada’s skating delightful to watch. Both were impeccable at one aspect and simultaneously extremely good at the other one. Legends.
Mao was actually SO artistic, and had better lines than Yuna, imo. I think Yuna was the better technician actually - clean big jumps and no edge problems. As for your comments on Russian judges - all judges prefer their own skaters. If you can't have Russian judges, then you also can't have judges from any of the countries that any competing skater is from. This happens in other countries too - skate Canada 2017 where judges gave the win to Osmond despite falling and popping of clean Sotskova, who normally has UR issues but many of the called issues weren't even there.
You forgot Tuktamysheva and Kihira in the lineup of "who performed triple axel". Shame, Vox...
Three medals sounds like the way to go. Also, I think that the combinations should have a higher base value instead of just adding the values of both jumps, because they are harderto do.
Have An Ice Day yeah, they could have a system similar to the one in gymnastics, where they get bonus points for elements fitted together based on the difficulty of the elements.
-3Lo combos should have a much higher base value than -3T combos, they are much more difficult to execute.
smh the point system did Yuna Kim so wrong during Sochi 2014
Not the point system but the judging. She got penalised for skating early in the order in the short programme first.
Okay if you know anything about the scoring system you would know her score was well deserved. She had a very low base value of her program (meaning she had easier jumps and spins) and her transitions weren't difficult lowering her components score. This is the basics of it though its much more complicated but she still should have been VERY happy with winning silver. I am so over this sochi yuna kim "scandal"
Anastasia Kaloshina if you know anything about skating Sotnikova was UNDERROTATED AND WAS NOT DEVALUED BUT RATHER CREDITED AS IF IT WAS ROTATED. Jesus Christ you people are so delusional Sotnikova did not deserve Gold also she skated on the wrong edge. Lutz more like FLUTZ. Exactly like Evgenia underrotates and does a Flutz. “So why don’t they take off points if she’s underrotated?” Well let me answer that now since you want to be uneducated. They won’t stop overscoring Evgenia since they’ve been doing it for years now since Sochi with Sotnikova so that they can justify her win.
Anastasia Kaloshina from the way u speak its obvious that u know little about figure skating.
ah yes the old just bash evgenia and talk about underrotations but never talk about where they actually were. I never said anything about Evgenia...
Technicality + artistry = Yuzuru Hangul
As much as I love the difficult jumps, spins, I always root for skaters that can deliver a performance
On a much smaller scale we have the same problem in competitive yoyo. Players perform 3 minute programs where 20% is subjective performance evaluations, 20% is subjective technical evaluations, and 60% is a "Technical execution score" were points are scored for landing tricks and deducted for missing tricks. Since extremely tough tricks can be given multiple Tech points at the judges discretion and simple tricks can be given no Tech points at the judges discretion, players have to focus on "what tricks click". There is a very strong incentive to cram as many tricks into the program as quickly as possible, so long as they all click. Beautiful artistic performances like Anthony Rojas' 2015 worlds freestyle can't win because there just aren't enough clicky elements.
But it's also kinda interesting looking at the top three at the World Yoyo Contest last year (2017). #1 was focused on fast tricks with clean execution, #2 was focused on harder more unique tricks(at the cost of cleanliness), #3 focused on choreography and performance. As much as the yoyo community likes to moan about it, I do think our scoring system does allow a fair amount of variety... but I do think maybe we limit our mass appeal since non-fans can't really understand the fast or hard tricks.
no matter what, after several years people will only remember one of the most perfect and graceful performances such as of Yuna Kim. Not those "spins a lot and falls flat on butt"s.
+Zygimantas Adomavicius
She broke the world record *TWICE* and even 4 years later, she holds 3rd highest points for womens in nearly all the programs. You really don't understand the hype?
Perhaps you simply lack the eye for figure skating or basic art? :o
kruton93 i personally prefer Maos artistry over yuna Kim. Yuna was good..but way to hyped. The only reason she was liked is because she had this flirtatious thing going on, wich seems to be the thing the judges loved. While Mao where more about having interesting and fin choreography. Yuna was also more stiff than Mao in my opinion. I think that female skaters need to push the limits as much as they can.
Lysets vokter I respect that opinion but when I saw Mao perform it was slightly uncomfortable to watch since she seemed really stiff. Her shoulders really got to me in her performances, she cant seem to move them well
As much as I like the past generation of skaters, you have to admit that the new skating routines are more interesting to watch. I've been watching a few routines from the last decade or so, out of nostalgia, and have been noticing longer periods of time where the skater is just building up speed or spotting their next jump. Compare that to the newer generation who are more liberal with adding transitions and skills leading up to their jumps, making them seem more fluid and effortless.
Actually, I don't really care for the artistry score in general, as it's more a testament to the choreographer's talent than the athlete's own ability, since it's rare to see a skater who choreograph their own routines. That being said, I fully support the changes to grade of execution, as it seems to be a good way to push for clean skates. The men's short programs during the team competition was an absolute disgrace, with most of them not just fumbling but falling from yet another quad attempt. If grade of execution can make a big enough difference in the scores such that a beautifully executed jump can score as much as a failed attempt at a higher level jump (e.g. triple toe vs quad toe), it should in theory push skaters to perfect their jumps before putting them in their programs, crossing their fingers and hoping for the best.
NAILED IT, VOX. You did it again! Thank you! Tara and Mirai are really amazing people :)
Those slow-mo jumps looked so amazing, it gave me some goosebumps.
artistry = the number of times you rewatch. some programs will live forever in my mind
Watched and rewatched over and over again: Parisienne walkways, Ballade no1 from Frederic Chopin, Seimei, Notre Stellara, Otoñal, Haru Yo Koi … and Hello I love you for the fun.
Artistry is something hard to explain and forget.
2mins into this video and I realised I'm still not going to understand the scoring of figure skating when this is done. Cool video though :)
ElricBro have you seen Yuri on Ice? It might help...?
Thank you Vox, great series and just in time !
I am so glad Vox is covering this! I am a figure skating and a skating coach (in Canada). There are so many factors that go into the composition of a program, for all levels. We teach our young skaters who are in development to perform clean programs with proper skating skills, as well as impressive performances that interpret their music. As the skaters get to higher levels, we challenge them to try their very best to perform as many difficult jumps and spins as they can, and we train them appropriately. Coaches tend to focus on consistency the most. Leading up to a competition, depending on how consistent an element has been in, say, the month prior, we have a very good idea of what our skater is capable of performing under pressure and adjust the programs accordingly.
PERFECT practice makes perfect!
In regards to the artistry argument, as much as technical scores are important to achieve, sometimes it just isn't in a skater's repertoire. Some freeskaters are performers, some are jumpers, and if they're lucky, they're both! Jason Brown is one of the most beautiful performers I have ever seen, and Nathan chen is an astounding jumper. They both play to their strengths to create excellent, and most importantly MEMORABLE programs. If it leads to medal: BONUS!
The Goat Yuna Kim & Yuzuru Hanyu
Tbh I prefer artistry and beauty in figure skating more than risky and technical jumps like triple axel or quads, not because I don't like them they r really amazing as well but I feel like jumps are not always the roots of figure skating, like Yuzuru, Yuna Kim, Zagitova or Lipnitskaya, their performance s are always full of beauty without too much technical jumps and it's still mesmerizing to watch
Vox I am loving your series on figure skating! I'm a huge skating fan so these videos tell me a few things I already know, But it helps people understand the beauty of figure skating so I'm all in!
OMG they put Evgenia's flutz in the video!! Lol
Since you've started a series on the Winter Olympics. Could cover Kim Jung Un's sisters arrival at the games. And what effect it could have on relations between North and South Korea.
Matt Kid It's all figure staking this week.
No body wants more politics.
Lol her name is actually Kim Jung Un's sister. Goggle it.
Some people really can't get by in life without politics or drama, huh? If you're really curious, you could've just looked this up yourself. But since you need everyone to do things for you, here: czcams.com/video/T8wAnukTiLk/video.html
theworldhere247 Well, politics do touch nearly every facet of our lives, as *politicians* are the ones who make and pass laws. So, no not really.
yuzuru hanyu and yuna kim all day every day 💗
Damn Vox, I'm loving all this skating content lately. So excited for singles competition!
I'm Honestly Lovin' These Videos On Figure Skating. It's Figure Skating So Nice To Look At During The Olympics And Just Randomly When I Run Into It On Tv And These Videos Just Make Is Easier To Understand! Thanks Vox!
Michelle kwan was known for her artistry on ice, she had the whole package. Michelle was a artist and got the most 6.0 ( 57 times ) in the figure skating history. People enjoy the beautiful performance more than a skater jumps like a rabbit 🐇 here and there or everywhere.
Hello Vox and Vox community! I'm a great fan of your channel and most things you post, but if I may give one timid suggestion, when you guys are talking about a topic or picking a topic, I think you guys should try and expand your research outside of America. Mentioning triple axels and recent figure skating olympic scoring and not mentioning Kim Yuna and her world record breaking performances and how she was scored improperly in 2014 is a bit disappointing. I mean have you seen her triple axel?
Yuna Kim has not landed a triple axel in competition.
RaymondHng in practice though she attempted one
RaymondHng that doesn’t entirely account for the score difference between Yuna and the other Russian girl.
really loving the Olympics content, thank you
finally i saw mao asada on a video mentioning the triple axel. thank you, Vox.
Ok so I just wrote some response about Yuna, and what I wanted to say was this. None of the people described Yuna just only "artistically strong" they said "technically so strong but also artistically so strong which is so rare" I feel so much techniques and artistry of Yuna, and also a big korean fan and I just wanted to let other people feel that too.
Sochi 2014 figure skating scandal
TheBrenable that one was just plain cheating.
i really love all these figure skating videos. yuri on ice is one of my favourite shows and i love learning more about this sport
This earns an update after the Olympics 2022
doesn't explain how the scoring was done at Sochi... it had to be rigged.
Yuna was ROBBED
Charlotte Tomlinson Not only that, there's a lot of information around the internet that shows how that competition was a fraud and Yuna was robbed :/
Can u guys talk more about Kim Yuna?? She’s amazing and I keep looking for her....
as a person from Korea she was a role model....
Ps she won several gold medals so she isn’t just some random person
lily heart I'm not korean but I agree! 😊
this is peak americanization i doubt theyll mention anyone not american sadly even though the top skaters for awhile havent been americans at all
You misspelled it. For us Peasants, is: Queen Yuna*😁
Donny Chen truuu my bad😓
Hannah Đỗ I agree
I feel like the media only talks about how America achieved greatness (and some did) but I feel that other countries fade to the background
love these videos! do a gymnastics series next!!
This is really helpful. I felt that Adam Rippon's free style (I think) was a lot more graceful and fluid than the others, but he still didn't score very high.
Tenaya well he didn’t have any technical content compared to the the Canadian or Russian. That being said Chan of Canada is known for his artistry and Kilauea of Russia has great and growing artistic skills. Ripping did a good performance but was judged pretty fairly. Also he lacks humility, I understand he performed well but at the end of the day his technical and both artistic content don’t compare to other skaters
Tenaya I agree. I watched his program from a couple days ago, I felt it was fantastic balance between athleticism and artistry. He had some risky moves in there but didn’t over do it AND skated like damn swan. He still has a chance at gold for the men’s singles later which is where my hope lies right now.
Jennifer Hiemstra there’s no way he’ll win the gold medal or any medal.
can you please do a rhythmic gymnastics scoring?
I still don’t understand why the the difficulty level of a persons performance, even if they FALL TWICE while trying them, still ends up with a higher score than a flawless performance which technical level doesn’t have the same beginning value.
I really don’t understand why completely failing to execute a higher difficulty/skill is given more value than performing a slightly less difficult skill flawlessly
When they fall they get -3 of Grade of Execution (GOE) from each judge (because there is no wiggle room. it's a fall no buts). In addition, they get a one point deduction for the fact of falling. So in case of triple axel: Base value is 8.50. If she falls, she gets (8.50-3-1) 4.50 for the attempt. Base value of a double axel is 3.63. So she needs to have either a hard entrance or hard exit to get that "+1" or more for the jump. If she does a good double axel she will get 3.63 for it while another girl with a fall on the triple axel will get higher mark as a reward for the risky element. And there is exactly where the technical vs. artistry argument lies.
its explained in the clip. rewind , watch .
Considering the small number of female skaters who've even attempted it, I think part of the issue is considering a double axel "slightly" less difficult than a triple. Or a men's quad slightly more difficult than a triple. There's a huge difference in difficulty.
If you go back to the early to mid 90's there was a lot of criticism about artistry being valued above athleticism. There's really no way everyone will be happy - though the 3 medal solution sounds like it has potential.
It only pays off even if the fall IF they rotate the jump. In this video's case, if Mirai completes the rotations of the triple axel and still falls, she'll get credit for the higher base value triple axel but get points deducted for the fall.
It will still cost more than a clean double axel. To get an idea on how hard it is to complete a triple axel, you can count the women who have landed it in competition of all time with your hands.
Attempting the huge triple axel comes with a huge risk. Say Mirai DOESN'T rotate the triple axel and she's missing half a rotation, they'll actually give her the base value of a DOUBLE axel, and minus points from that which will give her almost nothing, in which case opting for a clean double axel would have garnered her more points.
So regarding the falls on the big technical elements, it's a huge gamble if you can't rotate the jumps consistently because they'd be better off attempting the easier jumps. The ability to rotate these jumps is a huge deal on why they still get lots of points for it. The system still rewards skaters for successfully attempting, say, a quad lutz even if they fall. I'm certain there are only very few skaters who can even rotate 4 rotations in the air after a lutz takeoff. Even if they fall, it still shows great ability.
Jay Golden Yes indeed. It’s a balance. I totally love the risky skater as much as I love the skater who skates cleanly, but I’m really beginning to think the boundaries have been pushed to its limit in this sport. I worry quintuples will be attempted next and that’s quite literally/scientifically impossible to do as long as we live on planet earth where gravity will always be in existence.
Thank you for this! I’m about to enter my first level with ijs scoring vrs the 6.0 that they use for levels below Juvenile and this was really helpful!
Thanks so much for this video! I was confused how they score skating.
Lol where was all this when the queen Kim yuna was robbed by the Russians?
Hank Lester this vid is 4 yrs late
+Hank Lester Yuna got robbed because of corruption, not because of the system. Irrelevant.
Corruption that’s even worst
+Hank Lester It may be worse, but at least it makes sense. The bullshit you said is uneducated as hell.
@@ximienlundquist8487 Hmm if a corruption can take on a system, then something is wrong to the system in the first place
Yuna kim :C
Really good, interesting video! I miss the artistry and clean skating sometimes!
I think the skaters' bodies take a toll as well, with more injures as a result!
Really? Three medals for difficulty, artistry, and all around? Well, Yuzuru gonna grab all of them and the world will lose their mind
Sports!
We like sports and we don't care who knows
I think the problem is not that it rewards risk over artistry, but rather that it rewards risk over skill.
In the current scoring system, especially with the recent rule changes, the only way to win is to be a well-rounded skater, having both the artistry to back up the high technical abilities, plus consistency. That is if the judges plays fair. But then again, showing the judges and everyone else that a clean skate with a strong technical elements and artistry will force everyone to not doubt the high TES and PCS. Good luck to all the skaters, may you all have a clean skate. And to the all the fans, I hope we survive the rest of this week and the next one. God knows we need it.
Alizael13 it would be if the judges actually judged according to the rules.
Marie T yup, unfortunately the judges are...well bias.
Alizael13 Yeah..
You can mame new video now because GOE range was changed from -5 to +5 and only 3 jumps at the second half will receive bonus points to prevent the program like Alina’s program in Pyeongchang 2018 to take advantage of the rule.
I like this video but really couldn't agree when you said double axel is "slightly easier" than triple axel for ladies. So far only 8 women including Nagasu have landed a triple axel in competitions. If it's just "slightly easier", more female skaters would have done it. Any athletes who try to push the physical limits of humankind, of course without doping, should be highly praised. Especially in Nagasu's case, after controversially removed from team USA for 2014 Winter Olympics, she finally made it to this Olympics and landed a historical triple axel for herself and for her country. Her triple axel should be more appreciated than to be considered something slightly harder than a double axel.
It basically comes down to too many things unrelated to an athlete's PERFORMANCE; legitimate reputation (established expectations of good, bad and mediocre skaters where judges too much determine a skater's scores based on past performances), illegitimate reputation (eg nationality of skater and where skater is competing), the strength of a country's skating association, etc.
Yuna Kim didn't win gold in 2014 for some of those reasons. Even though her performances were superb and was the reigning World and Olympic champ, she was beaten by a skater who had never even made it to a top five ranking. Why?
Yuna missed most of that season thus nullifying any "legitimate" reputation points she might have garnered if she had had a full season under her belt when she showed up at the Olympics. Also, because of this she had no ranking and was thus grouped with lesser talents in the earlier groups. She still won the "short skate" but was woefully underscored nevertheless. Then there is her historical rival, Mao Asada (also highly regarded) who found herself skating with lesser talents in the free skate due to a poor performance in the "short". Her free skate was superb however and many believed it was the best of the competition and yet she was scored with the kind of marks others in her less talented group were used to. Then of course there is the fact that a Russian in Russia won the gold with a performance that while podium worthy was not of gold standard. This last part is what I refer to as "illegitimate reputation". Along with the Canadians, Americans and Japanese the Russian skating association is very strong. Yuna on the other hand was represented by not only a weak skating association but an association that is much, much more concerned and "involved" with speed skating of which they are a true world power. It is a testament to just how good Yuna is (or was) that she never finished off ANY podium EVER. Make no mistake about it; If she was skating for America that gold would have been hers. czcams.com/video/LUyV8hN8atk/video.html
Super interesting video! I'm wondering who at vox does or at least did figure skating.
Vox, when you've finished with the Winter olympics series, can you do a video about how rhythmic gymnastics is scored? I loved this video and it would be great to see it about rhythmic gymnastics.
Nathan Chen has spent so much time to crossover before all of his jumps. It makes me can't enjoy his performance. But he is a good jumper, no cheat at all, like Boyang Jin.
She's amazing!
I think splitting the skating medals actually wouldn't be a bad idea. Yuna Kim is definitely a skater who has beautiful artistry in her programs and deserves/deserved recognition for that, but then I also think of the athletic aspect of figure skating, especially when I remember Surya Bonaly. Someone can be a great athlete with incredible strength and precision to land certain jumps, and it doesn't necessarily mean that their version of skating is better or worse than someone who has more artistic aspects in their programs. In any case, I don't think one should be ranked so much higher than another, because both are important
Figure skating is half sport and half artistry, many people forget about that. I love a good performance, but if s/he only chooses a safe program, then the sport part is gone. It should be a balance of both, that’s why I love it when a skater takes a risk or two to do quads or triple axel in competitions. Want to watch smooth programs, go to their shows instead
Rather insightful
Another Great video
I don’t enjoy figure skating as much as I did before the new system. I feel it’s lots it’s beauty.
maybe they want to decrease the gap between artistry and technical but they shouldn't add more numbers to GOE... as far as i know, the GOEs only create more overscoring and underscoring stuffs. 🧐
If y'all want to talk about a skater that's all technical and no artistry look no farther than Marai Nagasu. She has zero artistry and besides her triple axel her jumps are ok, definitely not the best jumper or technical skater out there. But serious props to her for the landing that triple axel clean, it was amazing to see that. For the rest of her program, however, I can't say that.
femaleskater1185 as well as nathan and Vincent
She uses to be good on Vancouver😔
There should be more artistry! However, I would like to point out one contradiction in the video - you say triple axel is so difficult in the early part of the video, but then around 2:48, you put triple axel and double axel side-by-side and say some jumps are only slightly more difficult than others. Okay. Also no mention of Yu Na Kim and Sotnikova scandal hehe.
I have a competition coming up so I am watching all of the figure skating videos to help me.
so much Mirai and Nathan in this video
That is one THICC BOI at 1:05 and 4:32
Obr Kenobi HELL yeah friend 😎
I use to think wrestling was the most taxing sport when it came to mentality. Then I started to look into figure skating...sheesh.
Love your channel!!!!!!!!!!!!
As figure skating fan, I appreciate the fact that you're trying to educate people on figure skating but should use the correct terms when you do. Skaters/fans/skating journalism don't refer to skating programs as routines.