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The Downside of Magnum Ammo
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- čas přidán 17. 04. 2017
- The potential benefits of powerful magnum ammo come at a cost: recoil. I ran through some drills to find out at what point the effects of recoil overshadow the gains in bullet penetration and expansion.
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In my opinion if I’m going to be restricted to 6 rounds I want them to pack a punch
You forgot to consider the grips. Switching from the wood grips to a good set of Hogue grips can make a night and day difference in your recoil management. It did for me.
andresec100 I use a Ruger Redhawk 357 I had to change the grips from hogue to badger. I can do a whole box of strong 357 now easy
Same here!
#metoo :-)
@Billy William they feel like a hammer hitting you in the palm with many magnum loads. 😖
@@michigunsanta8680 toughen up
I love these videos because they’re short, usually 5-10 minutes, and have absolutely no fluff or unnecessary info
If you think about it, everything in this video is "unnecessary". Do you REALLY care about all of this crap when someone is threatening you or another person? You are going to carry what you carry as a matter of personal choice and believe me, you WILL use whatever is in that holster without a second thought when you have to regardless.
Excellent presentations.
When I first got my S&w .357, I wanted to practice a lot, so i bought a shit load of light .38 loads, because they were dirt cheap. I got to where I was fairly consistent at 50 to 100 feet. Then just for the fun, I would occasionally pop off a dozen or so hot .357 magnums. I never figured out why, but I always managed to get a tighter grouping and higher scores with the hot loads. Regardless of what common wisdom says, the kick of the .357 mag did not adversely effect my accuracy, especially at 100 feet. Now all I ever buy are magnums. My opinion: the only downside to magnum ammo is the cost. But if you want to be good with magnum power, you have to practice with magnum power.
If I got a magnum I'd do my own hand loading
@@khaccanhle1930 good idea.
Reloading is cheaper
@@Dwohman Yes it is,, and it is also potentially dangerous. 90% of all gun barrel explosions involve hand loaded ammo.
Tim Hallas cry baby
As a .357 and .44 Mag shooter for over 40 years I have to say it is not a matter of pain tolerance! the common mistake most shooters make is attempting to "manage" or control the recoil! I long ago learned how to "roll" with the recoil for lack of a better word. Don't exactly know how to explain it.
Oh god, you're gonna trigger the Yankee Marshall again.
John Capozzi in his defense, YM likes 357 Magnum pistols made out of steel for the weight/recoil control and a 3" barrel, IIRC, his carry revolver is ported as well.
John Capozzi again?
Hilarious. There's even a post about YM's .45 ACP tirade on the Truth About Guns website.
him and James Yeager get triggered by just about everything
he carries a chiappa rhino which handles 357mag extremely well, even in a 2" barrel
In my experience there are two types of gun owners:
1. Guys who talk big because they want to show how strong and tough they are.
2. Guys who are reasonable, know their limits, and train under reasonable conditions.
What about those of us who shoot and carry 9's, .40's .45ACP and/or .357Sig. I cut my teeth in the 1970's on the Model 19 Combat Magnum. Of course it recoils more then does a 9 or 40, but I have always loved shooting them. Sure I am a bit more accurate with a 9, but I love shooting my .357Sig and my .357 revolvers. Not trying to prove anything to anyone, nor do I expect others to do what I do necessarily. I am not Superman nor do I fantasize I am more of a badass then anyone else. I like what I like...you do you.
i'm both more of 1
And 3. Guys who think double barreled shotguns are enough for hunting and self defense
@@wildcard3261 Aw, c'mon man! You know, the shotgun thing! Just fire two blasts into the air!
@@markh.6687 🤣😂
After going through three deadly force confrontations w/my service revolver (retired in ‘97) I can say it’s VERY important to be able to score quick & accurate follow up shots. You may miss b/c bad guys move and hide behind things so you need to stay in the fight until it’s over. In retirement I test this at my range to ensure what I have is something I can handle.
I do it differently. I will use a random snap cap when I shoot. When I shoot and click on the snap cap, Flinch is obvious if it is there. Helps me to train to control recoil and which way I am flinching or lets me know when it really has adverse affects on my performance.
Forget the recoil or one-stop effectiveness, I just want a load that won't instantly destroy my hearing!
I shot my 1911 without earplugs by accident about 3 months ago. I instantly started thinking about if I had to use it lol.
What!
@@icelandviking1961 - you took the word right out of my mouth.
@@cunnelatio electronic headsets are amazing for home defense. Quick to put on and enhances your hearing and mutes gunshots.
Every typical handgun cartridge is dozens of of decibels louder than the average person's hearing threshold and will damage hearing virtually the same. Even the 22LR fires at about 140db and anything over 120db can permanently damage hearing. Granted, the thing that hurts hearing most is not one instance of a very loud sound, but prolonged exposure. Like listening to a motorcycle cycle revving itself for an hour or going to a loud concert will damage your hearing more than a single gunshot will. Otherwise a suppressor will take a round's decibels and cut it in half, making it still surprisingly loud, but it won't damage hearing.
When we carry a gun for protection from other people everyone thinks you got to have a cannon? NO any bullet you hit a person in the right place will do the job. Thanks for the video!
Sam P What Pres Regan shot with 22
What we call a mouse gun today was once called an assassin's gun. In the hands of an expert it can be lethal. Bobby Kennedy was killed with a .22 calibre mouse gun. There are terrible accidents because people underestimate smaller rounds.
And yet, I've seen Xrays of people shot center mass where common JHPs failed to penetrate the sternum/breastbone.
Use a .454 Casull. Just make sure you grip the revolver very loosely and hold it to the side of your body. If done right the bullet will stop the guy in front of you and the revolver will fly out of your hand and stop the guy behind you
Something worth mentioning, a steel frame 4" L-frame revolver at about 35 oz goes a long way to mitigate recoil.
What my hunting experience has taught me is that the recoil nuisance while shooting at the range compleatly disappears when shooting big game. I suspect this is even more so true in a self defense encounter.
Nothing else matters when it's your butt on the line
This is very true.
True, but if you hate practicing with your guns because of recoil, you either have the wrong gun and/or the wrong ammunition for that gun.
That's why Chris put "nope" on that Barnes test with the LCR; he already knew it was a VERY bad idea. And hating the recoil can act subconsciously even in a fight, causing flinch/jerk and missing even at close ranges, especially unsighted.
Yea, I use a Magnum revolver. That is, a .22 Magnum.
Heinrich Von Kekelnazi I have a single shot rifle in that.
@@kentuckyboychris Not to be rude but if it's a self defense weapon, you're dead unless your lucky and hit his head or eye but a single shot takes too long to reload.
@@fr2045 its just for targit and backpacking gun.
pros and cons, pros and cons. I'll keep my .357 with magnum loads.
Ok boomer
@@nuclearjanitors ok millennial.....
@@elpibe3514 why would anyone have a screen name like that? Are you one??
@Anthony old? LMAO 😂 😂 😂 😂 😂
not a boomer. i prefer my steel revolver in .357 over my steel 1911. born in 89 so im a millennial i guess according to the internet. yall need to put the tide pods away or we will raise the drinking and smoking age even higher
Magnum rounds aren't just based on pain tolerance.
I spent countless weekends and most summers on my grandfather's farm. typically carrying a 357 Magnum (this was through the 90's, there weren't a lot of good woods rounds for semiauto pistols, and my grandfather wasn't going to just spend money on random "latest greatest" stuff).
Majority of its control comes from how you grip the gun as well. if you hold the revolver like you do a semiauto, your palm is going to feel it a lot sooner.
keep your elbow loose, use your arm as a spring and not a brace (if that makes sense).
Still, as much as I love revolvers. I also know that there really is no major advantage of either platform (revolver or semiauto) when the rounds hit their intended targets. People who prefer one platform over the other will bring up secondary points such as accuracy, velocity, capacity, reload speed, weight, tacticool factor, and so on. Just to try to justify their preferred platform and caliber to another person.
I own semiauto's and revolvers. and many different calibers. I currently carry a Ruger LCR 327 revolver more often than not. the 327 is a stout round. I don't think I'm any better off or worse off than anyone who carries something different. I handle the little revolver just as well as most people do with their semiauto, but that's due to all the years I've spent using them.
Wish you could have put the Ruger SP101 in the mix. Heavy, but great little revolver. Good video!!
David Goodridge, I love my SP101. The P in .38 +P stands for "pleasant" coming out of that gun.
I have the 3" model & I agree with you.
A tank that will last a lifetime but the trigger is very heavy in double action. You really need strong hands for the SP-101.
One of my carry guns 🔥
Not trying to cause trouble, but I'm going to have to respectfully disagree somewhat with the content of this video, although it is TRUE for the average joe, most people carrying a magnum are carrying it for a reason, and Jerry Miculek is living proof that training with high recoil while retaining accuracy is real, and Bill Jordan shot his model 19 EXTREMELY well. Train yourself not to flinch and practice with full power loads and you'll be fine. I get a little tired of everyone these days trying to claim you can't shoot high recoiling loads under stress, history says otherwise...just takes practice.
Amen!
Most competition shooters are using 1/4 loads, thats alot less than the average shooter is using.
Exactly. Well said. And it's not just important to simply practice with magnum loads, but practice shooting with one hand (train right AND left) so that you can perform well regardless. I have shot my GP100 more than any other gun I own, including with full power magnum loads up through 180 grain hard cast bullets from Underwood Ammo, and recoil is not really an issue for me. I am more accurate with my GP100 than anything else.
Then again, I can also one-hand a .44 magnum without a problem. LOL!
It's not even about _feeling_ the recoil though. No one's whining about their hand being in pain while they're fighting off an attacker. No one's talking about flinching on the first shot during self-defense when all that matters in the entire world that moment is staving off death. They're talking about being able to fire multiple shots quickly and accurately.
The fact is that the sheer amount of training you need to be able to do proper followup shots with magnum loads is infeasible for most people. Citing Jerry fucking MIculek of all people, a professional shooter, as an example of how an average Joe should be able to handle heavy recoil is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard.
@KingdomofDimensions You are misunderstanding him. He's not saying that your "average Joe" should be able to handle heavy recoil right off. He's saying that, with training, this can be done with magnum loads. He's citing Jerry Miculek as an example of how good one can get with TRAINING. Besides, I honestly don't find .357 Magnum to be all that hard. Part of it just depends on the individual.
I ran a public park district range in a large city. Way too many showed up not knowing what they had, and certainly not what they could handle. Keep up the good work!
that had to be scary sometimes....
My Smith, M&P360 j-frame loves a steady diet of 357 GDHP Short barrel. Its mild(ish) recoil for magnum loads and gets it done. Merica!
Learning how to shoot a heavy recoiling handgun (or any gun) is a skill in of itself. That skill translates back also to softer guns as it forces you to concentrate on fundamentals. So while I generally agree with you, I don't think it should discourage shooters from shooting magnums. The skill in being able to shoot a magnum revolver is satisfying.
You could also argue that this is one of the reasons to get a .357 Magnum Chiappa Rhino since it counters recoil.
TaskForceSixTwoSix it doesn't. It counters muzzle flip
@Rusty Highlander You can counter recoil with a muzzle brake, although I wouldn't recommend using one on a handgun
@@borkwoof696 Exactly. It just comes back into your hand probably doing more damage. Muzzle flip is GOOD... it actually dissipates the recoil to some extent.
I don't know exactly how many gun experts have to shoot magnum rounds quickly and accurately but obviously the 2 or 3 hundred or so that have so far doesn't stop this drone about recoil preventing accurate shooting. "In my hands" is the statement that is missing. In many hands that regularly shoot magnum loads they shoot fine. I learned to shoot with a 41 magnum 40 years ago the first time someone handed me a 45 1911 and said it kicked I shot it laughed and handed it back. I said it didn't kick it reciprocates which causes the gun to flip but kick is something else entirely. If you start out hunting with a magnum handgun then shooting standard auto loader fare is easy if you learn the manual of arms. But starting out with a 9mm makes shooting a 44 mag seem like a mountain to climb when in fact it's just a hill.
Recoil is overhyped. My Taurus 65 shoots fine with full power 125 grain loads. I find the gun goes right back on target after firing. A buddy of mine called it "riding the recoil".
Thank you William Riker. I won't put .357 in my Phaser.
+YouADamnWitch Keep it up and we'll throw you out the air lock.
Set phasers to magnum.
No joke, you look just like one of my old bosses. My buddy laughed when I showed him your videos, and he agreed.
hahaa saw the comment looked back up...yup
I ask one of my customers, a Phoenix Police Detective, what gun to buy for self defense. He said the biggest damn thing you can handle. He went on to tell me that no gun is 100% effective in stopping the bad guy on the first shot. I bought a medium frame 4" barrel .357. I got use to the gun shooting .38 special around sand worked my way up to .357. Then I bought a Beretta 9mm from a friend and found that is was buttery smooth and I could empty the clip and keep things in the black at 25 yards. Most aremed conflicts occur in 15 yards or less. When he bought the gun back I found a used Taurus PT 100 in .40 cal. It wasn't as smooth as the Beretta, but a trip to the gunsmith fixed that with a nice trigger job and basically ,maximizing the guns accuracy. At 25 yards I could double tap the gun and the two rounds would overlap each other on the target. Running out the clip was really accurate too. And magazines testing the .40 against the .357 at the time showed almost identical ballistic results in Fackler gelatin. UnfortunTely that gun was stolen when I loaned to the guy I had bought and sold the Beretta to. He borrowed it for the weekend and someone broke into his house while he was at dinner with his boys. Today I think I'd be looking for a large frame CZ in 10 MM. EAA has match grade versions and the round kicks serious ass. With practice it could shoot just as well as the Taurus did in .40.
It seems most of these (tactical tests) put way to much emphasis on speed, in getting so many rounds off, instead of precision accuracy. One or even two accurate shots should be the goal, not rushing numerous shots into a set time. At 10 yards, and definitely at 5 and 3 yards, you should be able to put Two precise shots into the size of a dime, with any magnum round, in the same time you give to spray 5-6 rounds into a group the size of a basketball! Speed is fine, but accuracy is final!
I’m very accurate with my S&W 686 with .357 magnum. Yes there is some obvious recoil, but I don’t need to keyhole a bad guy. I think I’ll keep magnum loads in my 686.
"'Perfect' is the death of 'good enough'"
Love your guys tests. Wondering if you are going to do a 5.56 vs .223. For home defense. Different types of ammo. Would love to see that.
I know I am going to get a lot of hate from the "rapid target reacquisition" crowd for this comment but: Recoil doesn't affect your first shot (unless you flinch). Carry a magnum (even a properly loaded .44mag) and just don't miss.
To be clear I totally see the value of a multi-shot defence strategy, I just think marksmanship is the most important element in resolving a self defence via lethal force problem.
You are responsible for every round that leaves your muzzle so as long as your rounds aren't penetrating through your intended target, it is easier to be accountable for fewer shots.
Always go with the most powerful round you can handle. That means knowing your own threshold, your own limits, your own strengths and weaknesses. Never go to big to be macho, never go to small for fear of testing your limits. Also, the endless argument about gun size and weight; tell people to carry to heavy, they might not carry at all, but tell people to carry to light and they will very likely to choose very small guns in poor performing calibers like 25, 32, and 380 ACP's, or end up with a snub nose revolver and people using under powered hollow points they shouldn't use, or less round then what they could be carrying. Always a tough consideration, and it changes with every man. Good videos, keep up the good work and all that.
My 44 magnum 4 inch revolver is easy to control. Training remedies all issues, aside from mechanical ones
iDeagle ... could well be. SW 629 ported Mtn Gun w bear rounds and great grips was fun and easier than Ruger Security Six w 357 and no after market grips.
Have you ever tested the Rhino Chiappa ?
Amazing revolver, the recoil feeling is a one of a kind experience !
It is pretty amazing... when they actually work.
What issues have you had ?
I work very closely with the Chiappa family, and recently resolved one issue on the Rhino !
I love the Rhino. I'd be curious to hear what kinds of problems y'all have had with them
The cylinder locked up: The problem was due to the shape of the striker: It would strike the primer and get stuck in it, and not return into its initial position, that would cause the cylinder to lock up.
I tested many different types of ammo, but the same issue would repeat itself, again and again. I contacted the factory directly in Italy. I talked with one of the engineers. After having analyzed lots of empty cases, and exchanging lots of emails, it resulted in the fact that the strikers had to be changed. They sent me new strikers, I changed all of them on the Rhinos I had in stock. From that day on, they worked flawlessly !
To be honest, I personally have little experience with them, but I have spoken with many Rhino owners who have had issues and regret the purchase. I may do a serious evaluation of one, but based on what I am told by people whose opinion I trust, I am not optimistic about what I will find.
It also depends where you live. If you live in an Apartment you'd be nuts loading .357 or .44 Magnum. Remember if you wake up. Load your revolver. The .357 might go through the opponent, out through the back and into the wall. Possibly into the next apartment, hallway etc. There's also a big difference between shooting at a range with eye and ear protection, and shooting a revolver or pistol indoors without even ear protection.
Great video. I couldn't agree more I've shot a 357 one time without ear plugs and OMG never again a 38spl is plenty without the muzzle blast. It's still really loud but you won't permanently loose half of your hearing.
Placement more important than power but if you can get both then all the better
Excellent video, you keep dispelling myths for me
pliablemoose, This one's not so much a myth as it is a consideration for those who employ revolvers for defense.
I have always taught the the FIRST ACCURATE hit will normally swing the fight in that direction. Powerful peripheral hits do not normally do the trick. If multiple shots are needed, lower recoil ammo is best as ANY accurate hits work to that end. A .38 wadcutter to the heart will do it. A .357 mag to the lower abdomen MIGHT do as well, the ability to follow up is more difficult.
I shoot full power 44 mag, and by full power, I don't mean what 99% of factory ammo claims as full power. I'm talking about near max loads that are producing 1350-1400+ FPS with a 240gr SWC out of a 6" barrel. The way 44 magnum was meant to be shot. You can train enough to overcome recoil. It's not a matter of pain tolerance, it's a matter of discipline and practice. I would not hesitate to carry my 44 mag for self defense. That does come with some trade offs though. Speed being one.
This is a good video that incidentally reinforces my strong prejudice against lightweight snubbies. (Full disclosure: I carry an early 1980s Colt Detective Special.) In my experience the trade-off in carry comfort is not worth the snappy recoil one is likely to get with even fairly mild rounds. My sister has an ultralight S&W J frame and shooting anything hotter than wadcutters is just downright unpleasant. My advice to anyone carrying a snubbie is to stick with an all steel revolver.
I recently got a 642 S&W. And even though I rented one at my range and thought it was acceptable and i felt acceptably accurate for a snub. I think the bullet weight is making a difference. UMC158 gr I used in my new 642 was pretty damned unpleasant and I was not accurate at all. The original rental practice session iirc used target type, maybe 115gr. I was excited about getting Smith brand name and Perf Center version with a neat wood handle, but now I wish I had the 3" Ruger SP101 I had originally wanted.
" all i hear is bich hands "
Ha, LaMao.
The .357 mag round was developed with the 158gr. In the 1930s when it was developed the muzzle velocity and energy has been scaled down since the 30s.
I shoot Remington HTP 158gr SJHP and American Eagle 158gr JSP. I have no issues hitting steel inside of 25 yards.
I just want to add my two cents and say that I love the in-depth analysis combined with the simplicity of explanation in these videos. I personally feel that discovering (and later, subscribing to) your channel has been very beneficial. Keep up the good work. My personal favorite (so far) is the information in regards to the home defense shotgun. Definitely gave me some ideas, both for practice, planning and application.
I'm not a highly experienced shooter/carrier, but at 3-7 yards, I would personally think that most any load, target or +P would get the message across.
Any bullet will ruin 99% of people's day. Not only that, but if you carry a revolver, after you put a bullet or three in them, you can beat the shit out of them with it. The power debate is silly. The best gun is the one you can carry and hit what you're aiming at. If you experience the .1% of people who keep coming, be ready to fight--even if it doesn't put them down, you should still have the physical advantage after you've shot someone.
...yep. 38 SPL + P . Not too much...Not too little.
Right on target...One round after another.
In a SD situation a miss with a .357 is more effective than two hits from a .38.
I have carried a .45 ACP in combat and loved it. I shoot .45 ACP, .357 Mag and 22 Cal all the time. I shoot 158 grain semi jacketed semi wad cutters for just about everything and Hydro Shop for self defence. Recoil on the 357 in not bad at all. I shoot .38 special ammo as well but use that for target practice mostly.
Old vid I know, but a 6 in. GP100 goes a long way in taming that .357 beast. Very pleasant shooting gun.
This series of videos is very informative. Thanks
Would like to see your 223 results also. If you do please include 77g match 😁
www.ar15.com/ammo/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/
Hmmm.. Time go rewatch a few Paul Harrell Revolver n Magnum YT Vids. Or Jerry Miculek
I think the point of something like the .500 is "Sure i might break my wrist but it's better than getting Mauled."
You only need one shot when a bear is on you. There shouldn't be a second. You don't have time for a second shot. In fact you get one shot before its on top of you and a second if you're lucky enough to hook the barrel on it's collar bone, for a clean horizontal shot out its butt.
I am relatively new to handguns, and I am 66 years old. The advise is very relevant to me. MY Macho Man days are Over.
Recoil makes you stronger. Take as much as you can handle.
Personally, I just think that .38 Special is for people and .357 Magnum is for bears.
I like my S&W 637 airweight with wadcutters ...
357 is kinda light for bears dude.
@@lukerodgers1980 With 180gr hard cast loads you should be fine if you ever had to use it on a black bear. For a grizzly I would want something larger too.
Sound advice. I have a S&W J frame M&P 340 and have shot .357 magnum loads out of it once. That was enough for me to decide I was better off using .38 Special +P ammo.
Mag-Na-Port of Mt. Clemens, MI has been remitting most recoil in handguns for over 40-plus years. They also Pro-Port shotguns also. I have around a dozen firearms ported in both revolver, shotgun and even a 1911. Wife has one in her Model 1100 in 20 Gauge for self defense.
If the. 44 magnum has too much recoil for you , perhaps you and your girlfriend should both see other men.
Magnum ammo, you. Should be trying to take out the target in the first shot anyways.
Have you never watched police shooting videos? I have never seen someone go down with 1 shot. Half the time the mag is emptied in them and they are still fighting.
@@StarFox31 That's because they are continuing to shoot the wrong spot and shooting at that spot with a weaker caliber doesn't work a lot.
@@nicktaylor5952 So 15 rounds directly in the chest at point blank isn’t the right spot?
The production value on these vids is just off the charts
Or just use 10mm for recoil comparable to a .45 and the capacity of an automatic. Similar in cost as well, with a slight edge going to .45, but when you get nearly .41 or .357 performance out of a semi-auto what’s not to like?
I consider something like snub nose a secondary 'get off me' gun. Viable for use thru clothing or right up into the gut of your attacker. Therefore, I usually recommend the most powerful loading you can safely handle. When in doubt while shopping for a revolver, it is better to purchase the .357 option that way you can safely run both .38/.38+P and .357 magnum loads.
However keeping that all in mind, I do believe any secondary weapon needs to be suitable as the primary weapon just in case your primary goes down. Perhaps it becomes separated from you during a fight or maybe you couldn't reach your primary and the secondary was your best option or whatever the case may be.
Great information Chris and crew. Keep up the good work my friends.
That’s why I like the LCR in 327 mag. Still plenty of power and effectiveness (far beyond 38spl) but less blast and muzzle flip than 357 mag and you get a extra rd in the LCR. 👍🏻
I carry a thirty-eight snub as a backup gun. I have since I carried a 357 Magnum as a primary. I always carry it with Glaser safety slugs. For my primary load in my 357 I always carried 125 grain hollow point loaded to about 1450 feet per second. I had no problem with recoil oh, it wasn't quite as accurate as a 142-145 grain protectall, but it was more than accurate enough for defensive purposes. And it is still the best first shot fight stopper on the planet. I have no desire for a 357 Magnum snubby. I know that you get about 50% more energy, but the 38 with Glaser safety slugs is a very effective cartridge in close-quarters where such a thing would probably be used. I do carry extra ammo for it because I used to practice quite regularly at 50 yards with that particular firearm. It will hold a 4-inch group quite readily at 50 yards. And I have shot 4-inch groups at a hundred yards with my 357. My current carry firearm is a 1911 45 and sometimes I will carry a Browning hi-power where am I favored load is the spear 124 grain gold dot. Get out of that longer Barrel is usually an excess of 1300 to 1350. It is the best-performing load in actual meat that I know of.
And observation on your test. You were testing with golden Savers. I have seen golden saber 9mm MMO taken out of a deer shot from 12 feet. You could literally reload the projectile and shoot it again the only marks on it where the rifling marks. They perform very well in ballistic gel. But I have never seen a one taken out of an animal that expanded. Maybe the newer ones work better. But I've never seen them function. But my other favorite load is actually 165 grain hollow point in 40 Smith. Because each round produces 20 percent more permanent wound cavity than the best 9 millimeter. Permanent wound cavity is everything in pistols. You do not get hydrostatic shock from pistols. the bullets just don't fly fast enough until they're approaching 1500 feet per second as much as possible and then the hydrostatic shock is very limited.
The FBI never said that the nine mm was Superior to any of the other cartridges are tested. It said it was adequate their application of firearms.
When you're shooting the GP100 with the hottest ammo. I found years ago with my Ruger Security Six. It although it wasn't the most comfortable grip to use. But the Pachmayr gripper pause The Recoil to better align itself with my arm. Allowing the horizontal spread to be almost nil and the vertical spread to cut in half. I tested probably four or five different groups to find out what would work with the hottest of ammo. And found that the Pachmayr gripper design was the best overall for accuracy, albeit not for comfort. I carry that firearm all the way up until after I had trained several Michigan State Police Officers into semi-autos. I did not start carrying a semi-auto has a regular course of action until the mid 2000s. And my first one was a 40 Smith. 9 mm still was not a reliable enough stopper except in the very hottest of ammo to concern myself with.
The advantage that I'm seeing today however is that they have been able to engineer a mole with a soft enough jacket that it expands reliably at much slower speeds. And I believe that may have been enough of a game-changer to help matters with the smaller calibers at slower speeds. Thanks for your video. I have been teaching people to shoot now for almost 50 years. And I've seen a lot of changes in application of tactics and in bullet technology. The only thing that has not changed is the best first shot fight stopper there is is the 357 Magnum, 125 grain hollow point, running out at over 1400 feet per second. That is the constant by which all others are judged.
One other note, the two highest Firepower firearms on the street to this day is the 38 Special revolver, followed very closely by the 357 Magnum Revolver. Look up the definition of Firepower. It has nothing to do with the amount of ammo you have it has to do with the amount of ammo that actually hits the target and has an effect. 4 out of 6 rounds that hit the adversary with a 38 special is a 67% Firepower rate. Two rounds of 18 this yet the adversary is barely 11% Firepower rate. And as I told every single one of these state police officers, holes in the air will not suffocate that son of a bitch!
One other advantage that I think can be considered quite subjective, with the 357 Magnum, and 357 Sig in an automatic. Is the psychological effect of these rounds, their frequency and sound and muzzle Blast seems to produce a psychological effect on most people shot, that vastly exceeds the already existent fibs Factor. If I might quote active self protection.
One other point. Whenever I was being shot at and I was returning fire. I don't recall even thinking about The Recoil of my firearm. It didn't seem to be an issue in any way shape or form. My mind was clear, my heart was calm, and my intent was to stop the assault as quickly and accurately as possible. Tachypsychia seem to be one of those elements that took virtually all consideration of recoil away. So if you're a little bit faster with a little bit lighter gun, remember that when the rounds count, the recoil effect may very well be non-existent or very much mitigated. So you have to fight it and practice a little bit, so what.
excellent video, I know a few guys with training companies and yes i know everyone in the industry shoots 9mm. my own agency stuck with 9mm throughout the 40 takeover of the 90s. But I'm old enough to remember 357 was king for a reason. We knew enough to train with 38s but carry 357. once in a while usually on challenge I have done a 50 round qual with 357 and can't say I enjoy it and aside from being more conscious of time and yes it is slower, scores diminish a little not a lot.
One thing i see as a LE FA instructor is the propensity to train a course of fire of more than three rounds per string. Again zombie apocalypse training. The 9 is king here, for less trained which seems to be the target group of the industry we tell them as long as they have more rounds, they're good just shoot at the bad guy more times. with a 20 % hit rate I think we are moving in the wrong direction.
Critical thinking, decision making under stress are more important than caliber. That said and I am speculating but I think more people who hunt with a pistol use more power than the 9mm offers. since I don't, i can only assume because there is a difference in caliber on live animals.
What about a .44 mag? I love .44 mag
357 and 44 mag are indeed recoil loads, but for me i simply ignore the recoil and blast for the benefit of stopping power and penetration. When shooting 357 & 44 magnum you should already know what your getting into as i do. The recoil from 357 & 44 magnum is not big deal along with the blast if its what you want and i don't mind it.
If you can't put your big boy pants on and handle a 357 or 44 magnum round/gun then don't buy one.
We are not getting into the 460 and 500 mags because those pistol magnums are novelties in my opinion.
Frank Wood stopping power is a myth. Shot placement is everything. Your 357 or 44 can't do its job if it doesn't hit the target. You might be an excellent marksman but in a real gun fight we all suffer from reduced fine motor skills brought on by the massive adrenaline dump which negatively impacts accuracy. No reason to have to fight magnum round recoil and beat your opponent when 38+P loads offer substantially less recoil and adequate penetration against human targets
William Benton Bill , You are 110% correct!!.
Frank Wood 460 and 500 have there place they are great for handgun hunters that want a little more range or massive energy for Africa game
William Benton
Stopping power is not a myth.
If a round is powerful enough to penetrate to a vital organ or does enough destruction to tissue, that kills, or incompasitates the target... it is *STOPPED*.
Before the bullet can ever get there the shooter must place the shot on the vital target. Thus shot placement will always trump caliber
I do private security work and I carry a S&W Model 28 Highway Patrolman .357 Magnum. That N frame takes care of most felt recoil!
I really like your channel a lot and I like the way you explain things. For me personally pain tolerance is not an issue even with my snub nose 357 Magnum revolver but that’s just me. however you mentioned muzzle flip and flash. Those are very important things to consider when using a revolver. Also not to mention if you have to use a 357 magnum revolver in your house, you will not only go blind from the muzzle flash (at night) but will also most certainly go deaf, possibly permanently and that’s a real thing. Keep up the good work
Nice video, good points.
It's true. Girls with small hands should avoid magnum cartridges.
aka glock fanboys
A test is A TEST!!! Nothing beats reality. Short story... Back in the early 1960s/early 1970s when Super Vel was making its mark, one of our Deputies (a Sgt) had recently qualified with excellent scores during his semi-annual qual. Easy, the the SO qual course did NOT require us to shoot what we carried, as we could shoot wimp loads instead of "bust ur balls" ammo. I carried a 1911 and had to shoot what I carried, the 185gr SuperVel HP load. He was wanting to show off his new gun, a Dan Wesson .357Mag with three barrels, 2-½", 4", and 6 ". He was shooting the 4" and had already "passed" the qual. We were standing around when I asked to see the gun. I asked if I could shoot it and he said "sure" so I loaded it with some .38Spl ammo we had around the range. I shot it fine and asked him if he had shot any full power .357Mag loads. He said "No" , but it was about time to test it. So he loaded up some Winchester 125gr HP .357Mag "Police Loads" he had and... Well, let's just say he did a "Gomer Pyle", GOLLYYYYY, SURPRISE, SURPRISE, SURPRISE!!! He damn near dropped the gun on the first shot and missed the target altogether with the other five shots at seven yards!!! The real anxiety of shooting in a life/death situation is a hell of a difference between the range and the street!!! Recoil, what recoil? He was involved in a shooting about a month afterward and did fine because his attention was on the bad guys, not the recoil!!!
Totally agree with you. We are obsessed with shooting through targets and risk killing whats behind it and whats behind the wall behind it. Aim steady and true and make sure you hit the thing you are trying to kill, preferably in the head.
I'm not trying to be mean, and forgive me for commenting on old videos (binging your handgun and ballistics vids) but this is another really weird and poorly informed opinion piece. If you've got a snub nose 357 thebidea is to shoot 38 loads comfortably, knowing it can handle anything up to 357. If bbn it's a full size revolver THEN you can consistently carry magnum loads, and it's not even a problem at that point. Larger guns dont fly around in your hand. When shooting most ruger or S&W magnums in the k-frame category my experience with kick/recoil was the same as a 38 in a snub nose. Yes, th as t is just me. Just like not being able to shoot them consistently is just you, or you plus the people you tested with.
Yankee marshall is not going to like this
+Dickie D Who?
LG, he's a CZcams gun opinion personality that, sooner or later, rubs everyone the wrong way. Smart guy, interesting sense of humor, loves his revolvers and mouthy. (I do have a special place in my heart for my S&W too.)
Wearing electronic sound suppression ear muffs help because the loud noise is disconcerting. I also have my revolvers ported and use recoil absorbing replacement sorbethane-padded rubber grips.
just get a heavy 6'' barrel - bye bye recoil. unless you're pointing down then it kicks
My sister taught me how to use the 44 magnum, I do not have a problem with recoil and neither does she. I am 6'5" tall and 331# and my sister is 4'9" tall and 91#.
With my GP100 & Super Blackhawk, full power load magnums are more accurate than weaker load.
I have three smith and wesson revolvers in 4 inch, 3 inch, and a 2 1/4 model 640. I shoot all three of them center mass with 125 and 158 grain ammo all day.
Now the best shooter are the 4 and 3 inch at distance, the model 640 not so much but the advantage is hitting power and the guns are all STAINLESS STEEL for recoil management. 357 is the best of the best and it’s what I put my life on using it because I shoot them well.
My 9mm’s are all glocks. The models are 17, 19, 43x, and 21 in 45acp. I keep it simple in 9mm by using 115 or 124 +p JHP, and in 45acp 200gr & 230gr JHP ammo by federal, Winchester or Speer.
Recoil is what you can handle and shoot well, I use speed loaders and speed strips with revolvers better than most because I practice, while all my friends stick to semi automatics.
i went and fired a .44 magnum for the first time yesterday. and let me tell you: i coulda shot it all day. i put like 200 rounds through the thing and heated it up so much it seized up for like 15 minutes.
Broblab you can’t Sieze a .44 magnum revolver, you twat.
L. Billard the cases can get stuck in the cylinder. Then it’s not fun.
Other than recoil, cost, over penetration, and how everyone says your junk is small if you carry one?
I just saw a video of man taking 2 shots to the head(380 or 9mm Ricochet off his skull), 2 in the jaw. 9mm or 380's were used... I'll stick to a stronger caliber. Better to have a small junk than to be dead.
Got a link?
I saw that video too.
josh benware I'd love that see that one cause all the ISIS videos I've see show that AK 47 does indeed penetrate a human skull.
Cryptonymicus CZcams: Active Self Protection.
I have a S&W 640-1 .357 2in J frame. It came with wood grips. I is a beautiful gun with the scroll and all. Shooting .38 was no problem. However I thought it was going to take my hand off shooting .357. So I decided to switch out the grips for Houge grips for my model. That made a world of difference. I noticed that you didn't say anything about grips and its effect on recoil. It made a great difference for me. Just wanted to throw this into the mix. Great video though.'
You're absolutely right. Grips can make a huge difference in recoil management. But even with good grips, I think the reduced speed and accuracy that results from shooting magnum loads in a J-frame make it not worth the trade-off compared to running a good .38 special load.
What do you mean by .38 special load? Please explain.
Are you asking what .38 Special ammo I would recommend or are you asking the meaning of the phrase ".38 Special load"? If the latter, a "load" refers to a specific loading of ammunition, usually expressed as a brand/manufacturer and bullet (often with the weight of the bullet included, expressed in grains, abbreviated "gr". There are 7000 grains in 1 pound). For example, one popular revolver load is .38 Special +P Speer Gold Dot 135 gr.
In other words, the term "load" is basically the model name for ammo products.
If you're asking about recommendations there are several decent options for .38 Special, but for a steel frame snubby like the S&W 640, consider the .38 Spl +P Winchester PDX-1 Defender 130 gr or the .38 Spl +P Remington Golden Saber 125 gr, or the new .38 Spl +P Federal HST Short Barrel 129 gr. Or for a very low recoil option, a 148 gr lead wadcutter from Winchester, Federal, or Remington is always a good bet.
Thank you for some great information. I did have a S&W 686 .38 but was told that would not be a good gun for self defence. Wish I knew you before now. But I love my 640 so no regrets.
As an "OLD armchair duffer" (81!), I'll throw in my 2 cents of opinion! WHY NOT magnum ammo? This will be based primarily with a bedroom scenario. #1. RECOIL! Different strokes for different folks! Some big guys will be sensitive while some little guys could care less. #2. EXPENSE! One won't want to practice much unless you drive a Cadillac!! #3. MUZZLE BLAST/flash!!! Imagine firing a 357 magnum in the confines of your closed bedroom! Probably even a .22lr will be pretty loud (open the windows first!)! #4. OVERKILL!!! You're objective is to STOP the aggression, not splatter the bum all over your nice walls!!! Your wife will not appreciate cleaning up all the mess! You'll get no "gnocchi" that night! #5. OVERPENETRATION! Your neighbor (s) might not care to see how many 2×4 studs your custom ammo will penetrate after going through the guys chest OR past his chest! There may be other reasons too. I still think the .22lr (or the .22magnum) can be a decent defense round, especially if you throw plenty of rounds at the bad guy in the right spot! I can't justify (right now!) spending hard to come by money for a new gun when I believe my old mint .22lr Ruger Standard with its 6" barrel will be up to the job if needed! That 6" barrel gives the .22lr more HORSEPOWER than a 4" or snubbie!!! After all, the .22lr will always be the KING of all the self contained cartridges!!! "Ach du lieber, mein schatz"! Und "gesundheit"!!!!! Sorry for being so long winded! I loves ta talk GUNS!
22 or has a 1/3 chance of not stopping an attacker same with the other mouse calibers compared to about 14% from every other caliber 380 up to 44 mag and really yeah some valid points I would still ho with my 44 mag 200 grain xtp less penetration and extremely fast and recoil ain't too bad nothing against the 22 if it's all one has its better than a rock but there is better
And well 44 mag is usually cheaper than 44 special and you're right amor buying another gun being pointless when I can make a 44 mag work for hunting with heavy slow expanding rounds for pig and deer great penetration doen to 44 special which in hornady critical defense show little penetration and consistent expansion to maybe 180 or 200 grain xtp for fast expanding less penetration
I started my kid off with a 44 mag, and when he turned 10 years old, I moved him up to a 454. No wimps in my family.
Grumpy old fart You missed the point.
Or trained to mitigate that point away.
The answer is 10mm, which has as much power as a .357 Magnum with less recoil. The tradeoff however is that 10mm is more expensive than .357 Magnum but that's okay because I value my life more than the money I'd save.
(On that note, anyone else excited for the 10mm and 357 Sig ballistics test LG promised would come when they released their ballistics test back in 2015?)
I am very excited to see what the 10MM and 357SIG do in these Lucky Gunner tests!! Can't wait to see them!
Oh yeah. I only hope they use multiple barrel lengths like with the revolver tests. 1) Comprehensive data is difficult to find on 10mm and 357 Sig since they are often overlooked 2) Some ammo, like the Hornady Critical Duty, is made for full size barrel lengths but not subcompact. Being able to compare all the results is interesting to see.
+Jonathan Anatrella "Promised" is a strong word.
:c
Lucky Gunner Ammo Show us the results or we boycott!!! >:(
I put a box of 50 through my 357 and had a bruise on my hand to the next day LOL.
I see it a little different. If you are in a gunfight, trading rounds, scored a hit or two, taking a hit or two, things are looking grim (for you), you are on your back and your last hope is to be able to control the recoil of your moderately powered cartridge for one last shot. Obviously, your moderately recoiling handgun cartridge is not doing the job. Maybe you should have used the more powerful cartridge. Do whatever it takes to handle the most powerful handgun you can. Your life may depend on that. You have to do what you have to do. Period.
Excellent video. Thank you for taking gun fancier testosterone poisoning head on. Self defense is a serious matter and one where there should be no room for aggressive macho fantasies, when the real need is to shoot straight several times in a row with your life on the line.
Another consideration you touched on in passing is the noise. There is no particular reason why you might not have to use lethal force in a confined interior space, a convenience store robbery say, where a .357 will have an effect on your ears like a hand held pipe bomb. There is always the possibility of a startle response on your part delaying that second shot a crucial fraction of a second more.
You also seem to be quite a good shot and well-armed with either alternative.
Karmakshanti Vyapini Hate to be the bearer of bad news but uhh.......all ammo will be noisy in a revolver or any other weapon.
Next time you go to an indoor range, take your ear protection off and then fire a .357 after you fire a .38. Then tell me that they're equally loud.
That is, after the ringing in your ears quiets down.
or one could go the alternate route and fill their 357's with H110, the resulting blast wave will incapacitate everyone in a 1 mile radius.
I gather that all of you disagree with me. So what?
Jerry Miculek would disagree xD
Well after watching this I think I will go with the 357 buffalo bore 180 grain.
A WELL PLACED shot using a 90 Grain Hornady Critical Defense Lite round in .38 is better than a MISS using a 158 Grain full load .357 magnum round.
1) Shot Placement
2) Shot Placement
3) Shot Placement
@Steve Johnson 100% RESPECT ..I fully understand where you are coming from.. The .38 gets "Some stick" saying it is not good enough for home defense.. For decades the .38 was used by many police officers WORLDWIDE for its general "All round" purpose before the advent of the 9/10 mm used by most police officers today.
However some area's that are overlooked when choosing a hand gun for a home protection gun ..... NOISE level fired indoors with no ear protection! ... Yes we all know a 158 grain round fired out of a .357 magnum will have a better "One shot drop" rate than a 90 grain lite load fired out a .38 snubby revolver. That goes without saying Steve,
But I live in a small home and the bedrooms are small... Can you imagine the sound level of a .357 magnum fired inside a small bedroom with no ear protectors. Could EASY cause ear damage for life. So I have to make a compromise and use a 90 grain lite load in .38 caliber with lower sound levels as my emergency "Go grab" gun to give me some basic level protection until the Police arrive.
A 90 grain .38 lite load is still a million times better than nothing Steve.
Maybe it won't shatter a man's pelvis .. But it will still make his eyes water with a shot to the upper mass. Respect from me... Stay safe whatever you choose to protect your home. Remember even a Taurus PT-25 chambered in .25 ACP is better than NO gun.
A "Thumbs up" rating from me. You seem to know your stuff... Next time I am at the store I will get a box of 110 grain hornady to replace the 90 grain lite I have in my "Go grab" .38 caliber S&W model 442 Revolver. I will shoot off my box of lite at the range so they wont go to waste. Kind regards and all the best ...Dennis
EDIT... Would love the idea of getting a .44 magnum loaded with Federal Power Shok 240 grain ammo to protect my home.. It would have a much better "One shot drop" rate to stop a home invader in his tracks, Even if he was 6' 4" and 270 pounds.. But I would not fancy using it indoors without ear protection..When you get old like I am bits of your body start to hurt and wear our ..
Take care and all the best
2 words CHIAPPA RHINO
O4 HEMI The rhino is a beast, my 200ds rocks with 357 mag
DoctorChives I just sent mine back cuz when I opened the case from ordering it it was covered with rust in the barrel and cylinders hoping chiappas customer service is good
O4 HEMI are you sure it was rust and not just copper fouling left in the barrel?
yes I'm sure
O4 HEMI sorry to hear that. I hope they take care of it for you. You'll love that gun
In a gunfight you may experience; Auditory Exclusion, Tunnel Vision, Heart Rate of 175+, Loss of fine motor skills, Time Distortion. We default to the level of our training under extreme stress.
I've got news for you. If you are lying on your back, semi conscious and firing with your weak hand you already pretty much dead meat. My strategy is to NEVER end up in such a bad position in the first place. So buying a gun with that concern is just a losing proposition.
One thought I have on this topic is to have a 38+ P be your first shot in the revolver and then a stout 357 after that and the rest can be a 38+ P.
These days most revolvers bigger and heavier than a J-frame snub are carried not as pure weapons, but as more generalist outdoorsman’s guns (to include self-defense as well). Magnum ammo is useful for taking game or disposing of pests at range. It is flatter shooting and it hits harder.
I run 135 grain Winchester silver jacket hollow points in hand load 357mag, hot, in my sp-101 2" barrel. 5 shots in 3 seconds at 7 yards on a 6" plate all day long. Train how you live and recoil is never a problem.
Good video man. That is why I got a GP100 3", with .38 special +P Underwood/ Lehigh 100 grain Xtreme Defender loads, rated for 1,300 fps from a 4" barrel, with 15.5" penetration, and over 1" pwc.
When I have to wander off into Bear Country... I am pleased put the "big boys" in the cylinder....
I like a magnum revolver to be a bit on the heavy side Like shooting a ruger sps101 with 180 grain HP shooting gloves are to be considered.