The Infected Blood Scandal, and Iran's President In Helicopter Crash
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- čas přidán 21. 05. 2024
- Could the bill for the infected blood scandal fall on Labour? What makes politics so bad for mental health? Could Benjamin Netanyahu be arrested for war crimes?
This episode was recorded before the election announcement.
Join Rory and Alastair as they answer all these questions and more on today's episode of The Rest Is Politics.
#infectedblood #benjaminnetanyahu #mentalhealth #rorystewart #alastaircampbell
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This IS the podcast that keeps many of us SANE of mind and intent. It is fundamental to understanding how things have moved or are moving around us while signalling the room we could have for manoeuvre - if any!
Alastair & Rory are SO BRILLIANT and they shine in a way that projects the light and guides those who watch and listen without blinding or deafening anyone. I thank them both wholeheartedly.
They are merely censoring the violence in the West Bank and legitimizing the violence and illegal settlements by eews in west bank.
this is becoming my regular fix now.
Sameee
Same here.
Who are the blood suppliers, there’s no mention of them in the news. Just like how Fujitsu is largely getting away with the blame, these American or international companies have not been named and shamed and need to be held accountable.
Bayer. They were prosecuted and fined over $200 million in the US case. They have appealed the fine.
This scandals is linked the US "Factor 8: The Arksnsas Prison Blood Scandal" (2005)
Some of the blood was being forced from inmates a ghastly prison colony in Arkansas. One of the businessmen who benefitted from it was friends with the little known governor of the state, a certain William Jefferson Clinton.
You can't have it all: MPs can't rely on swagger and obfuscation to hide difficulties plus claim the advantages of an old boys'/good chap system and then complain that people can't see how difficult their lives are. Dismantle the aggressive, confrontational system of parliament, make the workings of government much more transparent, appoint ministers who have knowledge of their brief....why should MPs expect people be respectful when everyday they see MPs hooting and cheering at each other, scoring points instead of answering questions, and generally behaving like unruly school children?
HAHA "appoint ministers who have knowledge of..." I think this Rory chaps is one of about 7 politicians I've ever seen who is genuinely an expert on anything. I know everyone hates Domonic Cummings (and who wouldn't), but he did constantly try to advocate for some actual expertise in government, ministers and civil servants with a real grasp of data and maths and science, and he was absolutely hated for it. The tory press even hated on him for it. I'm sorry, but never gonna happen. We will always have nice-but-dim, wealthy-enough-to-not-need-a-job twits running the country because, everyone who is an expert on something, wouldn't want to go within a mile of politicians - every interaction they have is excruciatingly dim, they genuinely cant understand logic, or often the basic premise of how a conversation works. You are honestly deluded if you think there is any hope of ever getting educated and experienced people in govenment.
I have always found British institutions strange. They are so health and safety obsessed for the most petty of reasons and then you get these insane, wide-scale events, like the blood scandal. How can you have both?
How true .
Somewhere, there most likely will be a study that says without the import of blood from other nations 1000s of people will die in hospitals due to not having enough blood. The wrong risks were assessed.
Because they aren't really H&S obsessed, they are litigation averse and insurance audit passing obsessed. The H&S in this country isn't about the real world of keeping people safe, its about ticking boxes to ensure that no one person, organization or insurance company is culpable when anything happens. Same thing happens with data protection, the laws, the rules, the way institutions achieve compliance, they are ONLY about making sure that all teh forms are filled out correctly - try to point out a hideous security flaw which isn't in some way covered by the forms for the 'standard' they have to achieve, you are ignored (they never like anything in an email) and you are laughed out of the room. Watch the CEO of the post office wriggle out of the thousands of times she was told in emails about the reality of what was happening, all she has to do is say the right phrase from her legal team's instructions and she will be completely immune.
In other countries, such scandals get covered up.
It's almost like the government resolved to commit to this massive payout knowing that the cost of it would fall on the next government.
Labour are just as culpable, but ultimately it's us that pay
It's been suggested that it's the same with compensation for people affected by the post office scandal, ie let the next government pay the bill.
The British are so good at doing enquirers and investigations but nothing ever seems to get done in the way of compensation for victims and families of victims.
Alistair and Rory approach all topics with Honesty, Integrity, Intelligence and Compassion. Love these two and their thought provoking conversations❣️
🤣
Rory does. Allistair is a partisan hack when talking about Labour. Listning from 38.00 onwards makes my blood boil! They both sit there and say "There strategy isn't working, you can't bomb an ideology, I talked to a friend in the army and he said they don't have a long term soluion." WHAT ALL OF US ON THE LEFT SAID 8 MONTHS, AND 10,000 DEAD CHILDREN AGO. Fucking Cowards, the pair of them. This was so obvious but because they didn't want to speak out and alienate themselves from their elite social network they were silent.
Rory for prime minister please
I think Alistair hit the nail on the head there when they were discussing the infected blood scandal, Rushi pushed the button for the general election knowing his party have little chance of getting in and leaving it to the Labour Party to find the compensation money for the payout.
I had exactly that thought myself.
Hunt announced it would be borrowed. Not sure who will loan us, maybe Putin?
Labour could have done something on this years ago too. There's enough blame for all parties, and it's us who pay ultimately
One of the reasons we used American blood over UK blood was that UK plasma was not able to be used for plasma treatments due to the presence of CJD within the cohort and potential risks. It was government regulation that it had to be imported.
Hey Rory, vipassana retreats do tend to loosen ones tongue when it comes to addressing obvious bollocks. It's lovely to see, keep it up.
Case in point: In the 80s One Senior ex SAS Officer had been fighting Whitehall with a few kindred spirits to right the wrong of the War Widows. These many ladies had been given half a pension on the death of their husbands in "WW2" why half? Because they were Missing in Action. These were dead men with no known grave, aircrew at the bottom of the North Sea, lost in the Jungle etc. MoD and the Treasury fought against the widows for years and years. Most of the died of old age before the Government coughed up. Beyond belief? Happens all the time.
OMG that is just Callous of the British Govt and Authorities who summoned these Men to War and then treated them and their families like this with such indifference forever more as MIA during a World War....Callous!
Who knew that Yes Minister and Yes Prime Minister were actually documentaries.🤷🏼♂️
A very similar cover-up pre-dates the infected blood scandal and that was the British Army soldiers who were flown out to Christmas Island in the mid 1950s to prepare for and witness the nuclear tests. They were given no protection against the effects of radiation emitted by the blasts. Many thousands of them died prematurely from various cancers which can reasonably be ascribed to a result of the exposure to radiation. Many of their offspring have also been badly affected. It’s been known about for decades yet they still have not had justice.
Have neither Rory or Campbell ever read 'Private Eye'? Feigning surprise at how these grotesque injustices happen and that government doesn't work, is nefarious and corrupt is . . . . . .
Given Alistair's comments on Teesworks/Freeport's I would surprised if he hasn't
Really good point. It is beyond criminal. But it was known!!!
Will any compensation funds be recovered from the companies who profited enormously from knowingly selling tainted blood to the NHS?
My understanding is that the american companies have all split and merged with other conpanies. Such that they can all pretend it wasn't them.
Even if they sold the blood unknowingly, these companies should have known and so are culpable anyway on the basis of negligence - quite seriously culpable. There used to be a principle of “lifting the corporate veil” and I wonder whether the directors of the companies which existed at that time can’t still be traced and held responsible. I suppose those are things which will be explored in an inquiry.
@mapmuncher5587 How convenient. Profits went somewhere though, didn't they.
Yes, but the NHS have questions to answer as they knew it was infected & carried on using the products.
Also there may well be actions against the various American state governments for supplying the contaminated blood from negligently run prisons.
Doctors in my country also were told not to test for HVC.
excellent backgrounder and discussions on current issues. Highly recommended.
Makes you wonder what the next scandal will be that could be prevented if only…
This episode forced me to remember quite a few clips from "Yes, minister".
This scandal happened in Italy as well, a family member over there for infected and later died of liver cancer. A few months later his teenage son committed suicide. The wife and mother, my wife's auntie, was recently generously compensated by the state. But the loss she felt can never be repaid.
A while ago I read The Iron Wall by Avi Schlaim, and found it very interesting. It seems clear to me, from reading that book and seeing what is happening now, that Netanyahu does have a strategy, but won't say it out loud - it is his long-term strategy of creating Greater Israel, making the Gaza Strip and the West Bank part of Israel, and removing the Palestinians (and ideally all Arabs) from Israel if possible.
This podcast needs more air
Man, I feel smarter listening to this podcast. Feel like it’s time to become engaged in how things are run in Britain. Not sure how, just became a member of The Rest Is Politics. Thank you for the effort you put in Alistair, Rory & team.
Rory's experience with trying to get things done as a minister reminds me of the series 'Yes Minister'
Excellent episode from the both of you. I take it back...its good to have Rory back......I may disagree with you on some things but on foreign policy and especially the Middle.....very good points.
Thoughtful, informative, compassionate. Thank you
I don’t know if I’m naive or what but I didn’t know much about the infected blood scandal. Having found out through the inquiry what happened I’m frankly horrified at the gross systemic failures people experienced as a result of this.
I’m also disgusted that Sunak has seen this as an opportune moment to call an election so not only do Labour have to find the money for compensation, but they can also weaponise when they do have to spend out for it.
The calibre of politicians these days is … disappointing.
Yes, Alistair is right: there is a systemic problem. Unfortunately, it runs very deep and extends beyond these scandals. We, as human beings, seem very bad at choosing those of us to run our institutions. The personal qualities needed to get to the top are, too often, precisely the qualities we really don't want those at the top to have and the qualities we want those at the top to have are precisely those that make it difficult to get the top. It's as if we really need there to be an emotional intelligence test to be compulsory for leadership roles.
I must admit when I skimmed the headlines and saw the infected blood scandal I assumed it was something recent, or at least something that wasn't public knowledge. This blood scandal is well know and evidenced and it's fifty years old (I knew about it when I was 11 in the 90s). The idea of waiting for compensation for over fifty years for an offence that is frankly famous the world over just blows my mind.
Lovely episode as always
What action if any has been taken against the USA for selling a product which was not fit for purpose? Should the bill for compensation not be placed at their door?
The politicians seem to forget that they answer to the law and the voters. Very good explanation by Rory of how the system works - scary
MPs cannot vote because they are not present. Why? Surely they can cast their vote in much the same way their constituents can use a postal vote. At some point tradition becomes ridiculous.
These two, have such experience, such knowledge and such a great rapport with each other. Informal but professional, informed but so well communicated with the audience as they have a “fireside chat”!! Excellent and a big thank you
I am surprised you didn't mention the Post Office scandal and compensation. There are many parallels with the infected blood scandal, in the way that the post office has been slow to admit blame and delayed compensation for as long as possible.
I feel like Rory’s point about a labyrinth of civil servants getting a swamp to find the truth can be applied to any organisation.
For example if you complain to a delivery company, you can be on the phone for hours needing to talk to multiple individuals.
Same in private sector, if a senior is reviewing a report it can be very difficult for them to get a straight answer or reverse the report in a meaningful way. It’s Kafka, but also people are lazy, people accept what they are given as fact, people delegate responsibility.
My German cousin was married to a Hemophiliac and both her & her husband died of AIDS from tainted blood from USA where junkies sell their blood.
I see there's an election special "The Rest is Politics" on Channel 4, tonight at 11 pm. I will be watching!!
Power, of whatever source, MUST be accountable. To the point of prosecution and conviction. Sorry, it's not just 'bureaucracy'. It was obvious at the time, if you weren't removed from it all by hierarchy. And don't just blame low level operators. People 'work to the leader'. They always do. Leaders must be held accountable for ignoring this obvious fact and exercising their predictable and wilful ignorance.
A true national scandal reflecting how my generation caused so much tragedy while feeling so optimistic about the future. From not enough of us donating blood leading to shortages, to treating victims of AIDS appallingly and ignorantly, to accepting the behaviour of doctors and finding their portrayal by James Robinson Justice of the tyrant consultant as hilarious and leaving it at that. We treated them with deference and accepted all their decisions even though plenty of other people were warning us of the dangers. Finally the US only for profit pharma companies knowingly selling tainted blood and the US weak regulating bodies allowing it should be brought to account. Surely the same scandal has happened in the US but has anything happened there or is their cover up more successful.
I remember Dr David Owen did try to flag up the problem of infected blood at the time and was slapped down very hard.
As an American, I'm honestly baffled that the professional staff doesn't feel the need to listen to Ministers, or that there is an assumption that Ministers don't develop expertise in their portfolio. An American Cabinet secretary who didn't work to develop expertise in their portfolio would be absolutely crucified by our media. Heck, even those that do try to develop expertise get absolutely torn apart by the mainstream media when making a simple flub (whereas partisan media will only attack the opposite side).
I believe that the people in the blood controversy that are the victims are inline for £2ml compensation each, about time they did !! And thank you Rory for all that you have said about this issue
In fact thank you both
Typical of Rishi to promise billions in compensation, knowing full well he was going to call an election in July he knows he is likely to lose, leaving Labour to deal with the compensation. In some respects that’s fair as past Labour governments ignored the issue, but demonstrates Sunak’s lack of backbone.
As a Canadian hearing about the blood scandal for the first time, I was left speechless. It all sounds horrible, and then to learn people died from it?? I hope they put everyone responsible in jail, it's completely insane.
Reminds me of the tainted blood scandal here in Canada, and the change from Red Cross running blood collection services to the new Blood Services agency.
A deeper societal issue which needs pressing attention is the position of science in public perception, failure of the governing classes to engage with fellow human beings engaged in difficult scientific and technological tasks and decisions, and to have proper open and respectful discussion at every step. I fear that successful politicians, and most journalists for that matter, hold "scientists" (thus usually labelled and belittled) as a troublesome group to be held apart at a safe distance.
I mean Rory explained the problem well. Take the health service, should obviously be science led. The bloke in charge of the health service however knows absolutely nothing about medicine or science in general.
Absolutely so, arguably an almost total dearth of science literate people in the entire administration sadly, in every era of government. So they cannot engage in sensible discussion, and sensible decision making is the first casualty.
I think this was also particularly blatant during the C-word - Boris repeatedly said 'we're following the science' as a way of covertly shifting responsibility for any policy decisions onto unelected scientists, when it is our elected representatives who ultiamtely implement policy (and, at least in theory, take responsibility for it).
@@simonfrost7094 But he didn't follow the science, he just said he was. Why believe a famous liar.
@@ed1726 My point wasn't whether he actually was following the science or not, it was that he only said he was as a means of absolving any responsibility for decision making during the crisis.
Rory talking about the North Syrian money is absolutely chilling.
My Iranian diaspora friend changed when the president passed. It was like a weight lifted off her shoulders. She was very happy, although she knows there is a long way to go.
Why was the weight lifted of her shoulders?Someone with the exact same views will just take his place
@@johngilliam6764 what an inane comment.
Amusingly, the Parliament website hasn't updated its Recess calendar.
American company claimed it was cleaned and treated bloody when in truth it was straight from the collection service untreated.
Why not claim from the yanks.
Best episode yet.
I think it was important that both cases raised by the ICC were raised at the same time.
Is there no accountability to the sellers of the infected blood ?
Condolences for a man who had protesters murdered? I don't think so.
Will they dicuss why these scandles arise and how they are used to undermine the state.
Rory's explanation of what an MP does is enlightening. It is a person who lies to everyone while forced in to situations they cannot possibly help with. It's not really that surprising that the average person might find this objectionable.
Alistair's point about what kind of person wants in to this situation is very pertinent. Outside of a very few people like Rory who are far enough outside the system to be surprised by it when they get in you basically are left with two choices. Complete idiots or evil bastards who know full well that they have to lie and their supposed job is BS.
The infected blood scandal reminded my mother what she overheard Doctors saying while my Uncle, her brother, was in hospital with third degree burns on his legs after some petrol went up while he was messing about with his motorbike.
Apparently, they were talking about how that hospital was paying more for blood than other hospitals in the area (west mids), and were screening the blood more carefully, and my Grandad had to sign off on all the blood and plasma transfusions my Uncle had. I think my Uncle was 17 at the time, so it would have been around 1985, 11 years before. Fortunately for him, he didn’t seem to get infected blood.
I think the public aren't sympathetic about MPs' mental health because a lot of politicians are exceptionally uncaring about the public's mental health. Obvious elements such as huge cuts to mental health services, long wait times etc, but also plenty of negative language indirectly aimed at sufferers such as saying younger generations don't work hard/are lazy, calling people snowflakes etc etc... Too much generalisation in both directions but its hard to accept MPs complaining about their very legitimate struggles now when poor mental health sufferers have been begging for more support for years to no avail
Shouldn't the US have to pay for damages to the UK government once the government pay out?
Just seems whenever the government has any involvement all other sins are forgiven.
Israel: we have investigated ourselves and found no wrong doing.
I may be wrong but wasn't Labour in government for years. Why did they not do something about the blood scandal?
I worked in the NHS for many years and sadly I am not surprised by this story. Basically any mistakes made , in this case knowingly doing wrong, the cover up starts straight away….. deny all knowledge! There is a lot of good around, but it seems regarding the NHS no wrong can be done! The rose tinted glasses need to be removed. 😕
My father died in 1982 from infected blood. All evidence besides the death certificate has been destroyed. I am being asked for more evidence!
Is there no recourse for us with regards to Australia providing this blood?
I thought this one was particularly good, thanks a lot
It is all very well talking about medical scandals that happened 50 years ago, but what about the scandal that is happening now.
what scandal?
Maybe political parties should be made to play football matches against each other...or less intense sports for the older members..that may foster some level of sportsmanship culture when election comes which in turn helps mental health
First impressions are important, not sure how this helps😂
To address the split required between the house and the constituency there should be an MP dedicated to both. Halve the number of seats, vote for a pair of MPs who take on those responsibilities. Both must assume both roles, at least 40% of the time, so the voting is not down to one person.
Surely the compensation scheme can not be paid for through cuts in public expenditure, that would be really wrong. It’ll have to be paid for through additional borrowing. Although I imagine this scheme will have to be ongoing with monthly payments to those effected after initial one off payments.
I worked as a NHS DHPC (District HIV Prevention Co-ordinator) in the mid-late 80's, under ring fenced money (AIDS Control Act 1987). Limited effect, much of the funding was hived off to fund non-related service provision, one of many symptoms illustrating a prevailing institutional culture that dissipates transparency with a tendency to become self-serving.
My son post tonsillectomy had a major haemorrhage requiring a blood transfusion to avoid death. That was in 1985 in Scotland. I was told the blood may not be clean but there was no choice. He was fine despite my terror. Why did that not happen elsewhere?
I don’t know the answer to that, but thinking back to the 1980s, there was still a significant degree of arrogance within the medical profession (‘doctor knows best’). I guess also that many doctors were between a rock and a hard place, knowing that transfusions were necessary to save lives but unwilling to accept at that time that it was bad blood. I do think there is far more honesty these days, but you still see medics reluctant to criticise other medics and ‘ganging up’ when situations like this arise.
Prosecutions are essential. With reparation and imprisonment. Responsibility is the only way to achieve change.
Rory is usually so full of global knowledge but having lived in Chengdu, Sichaun Provence I can say for sure that he is incorrect in his knowledge of Mainland Provinces.
You lads are up late or up very early. I am in NYC in the wee hours.
If he'd presented his applications for arrest warrants separately (either on the same day or whenever) that would just lead to criticism of "why did you indict them (whichever side)first?"
Can you do time stamps please
Rory's comment that reconstruction had gone right in Kosovo and Bosnia is bit of a stretch: maybe I comparison with the rest of disastrous interventions.
Another way of contrasting that 5 billion: Goldman Sachs calculated that 5% has been wiped of GDP as a result of Brexit. That's 150 Billion every year, which equates to about 52 billion in tax revenue. Every year. That's how much the government doesn't get to spend on compensating people infected by blood, on police, on the NHS on teachers. The 100 billion of that lost money that wasn't tax revenue - about 80 billion - would go to the wealthy as that's how GDP is skewed in the UK. The other 20 billion which would have been earned my low and middle earners would have gone to keeping people healthier, reducing crime and putting more children through the private school system, after all, non-tax money helps with all that too a little. Goldman Sachs analyses aren't generated by politicians to make a point, they have to be accurate reports on what's happened and what will happen, because they (one of the most successful banks in the world) directly base their trading bias on those reports, they use them to make money, and as Rishi Sunak will have to admit to: Goldman Sachs are very good at that.
Has anybody got an idea of the total bill for all of this? Blood, POL HS2 overruns RAAC.
Blood from abroad IS ALWAYS MUCH MORE RISKY!!!!
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think I've heard a word be mentioned on this podcast about the attempted assassination of Robert Fico. Since you often like to discuss the dangers of polarisation in politics, it's surprising I've not heard this crop up. Perhaps I've just missed it.
Listen to Rory at 4:06 and apply that to the present day. Very interesting when you do.
As one of the impacted victims, for the last 40 years we’ve been gaslit and our campaigns being kicked into the grass for so long, for many of us we never thought we’d even see admittance from the state. Now, in our moment of relief from Monday’s inquiry, it’s been kicked even further into the grass with this general election. It’s sickening, I honestly don’t know what to think. I can only hope that starmer will quickly pick it up when he gets elected, but I just don’t see this scandal having captured the public attention that much so the pressure just won’t be there.
BTW, enjoying your chats guys…
So, because people were bastards, reckless and stupid in the 70's to 90's, years before I was born, I have to pay for it with increased taxes when I'm struggling to afford rent as it is? It's all 10s of billions of pounds but no ones fault?
You and i are also benefitting off the infastructure and investment made by previous generations
Bibi's long term strategy is to keep him and his grasping wife out of gaol!
The NHS was founded by the very same people who founded the British Eugenics Society.
There should be no ambivalence about the existence of war crimes amid the horrific destruction, starvation, terrorism and ethnic cleansing being perpetrated against the civilian population in Gaza by the occupying army. As far as the US is concerned, it seems that AIPAC money talks but it should not be allowed to corrupt at the same time.
My son affected with Downs Syndrom had big heart operations in 1986 , one year old, waś then affected with Hepatit C. Luckily today modern medication has helped out son fre from. from the virus Then we learned there was no test to find the virus in blood until 1989.😮
Sounds like Monty Python 😢😢😢
Could you please interview the ex-Shah of Iran’s son, Prince Pahlavi.
so many of these scandals. One thing that threads through them all is Money! HMG Treasury just do not like to cough up.
I know it doesn't matter but genuinely interested to know why Rory so often sounds 'd' instead of 't'. For example "Bedder health", "the pardy" etc.
I think people go into politics with good intentions, but the system corrupts.
On the blood scandal, Rory's connection to the issue is so evident in his emotive language and expressive gestures. Its a side we don't see much of, one which makes him an even more likeable and admirable human being.
I don't like Dominic Cummings but it seems he was right about one thing - the Civil Service is rotten to the core and needs some serious stirring up.
Doctors and scientists need more training in ethics and moral reasoning
🎉
What did Blair do about the infected blood? Not a thing.