It's very good. Started under the Tories without the GLC or GLA, and financed by public-private initiative, before the latest lot started putting their hands in the till again, like Marples did in the 1960s. Only a question mark still remains over the conditions under which its drivers were operating and its trackside infrastructure was configured, after the 2016 accident happened. (The driver has since been cleared.)
@@SampleTracks2224 The issue of speeding around the sharp bends was considered but it was considered that the drivers would be extremely familiar with the route and it was all driven on-sight and had good braking capacities; so the risk was considered to be low.
but also an example of wasted opportunities. what's there is working great - why was it never extended? It's been 10 years since the Sutton Link proposal and nothing's been done except endless consultations.
@@mildlydispleased3221I think the Sutton extension was dead over 10 years ago if not longer (certainly it was not an option by 2019). In any case the current Bakerloo Line extension proposal is only to Lewisham. However, the route has been safeguarded to Ladywell and therefore could extend to Hayes but I doubt that will happen for 30+ years. There are no plans that I am aware of to extend Tramlink north of Elmers End.
Jago, you are a wizard! You just turned a broken brick wall next to a tram line into a really informative 10 min video. I am as impressed as entertained!
I always thought it was strange that the Tramlink has two level crossings so close to eachother, it’s far from an ideal layout especially for what was a heavy rail line. To find out they removed bridges and embankments is sort of blowing my mind as that’s the exact opposite of what planners normally try and do!
The two level crossings work well. The first crossing is triggered by the approaching tram. The second crossing is triggered when the tram driver presses a button in the cab which triggers a sequence to change the traffic lights/signals for the crossing past the stop. The latter system is used for various crossings and tram signals elsewhere on the network. As the tram is crossing there are also green lights for pedestrians to cross the road (not the tram line of course), which is useful if you have just alighted from a tram.
The bridge across the Addiscombe Road was removed long before the tram system appeared. It allowed double deck busses to run on what was then the 312 route. Previously this route was the 12A running from Dulwich and Norwood Junction to Croydon, using single deck Leyland Nationals. The 12A was what remained of the number 12 route from Oxford Circus which started to terminate at Norwood Junction and eventually Dulwich.
@@fluxington Actually route 12 (prior to 1972 when it was shortened) was operated by RTs, so double deck buses used to be able to get under the bridge on Lower Addiscombe Road. Route 12A was introduced in 1972 and operated by SMS so that it could be one-man operated. I suspect that over the years the road surface was raised/bridge height signs lowered (to be more cautious) meaning that double deck buses could not then be used until the bridge (on Lower Addiscome Road) was removed in the mid 1980s. Indeed thanks for reminding me that one of the costs that Tramlink consultants initially assumed was replacing the bridge and raising it (in order to maintain double deck bus capability) and that raising of the track was in addition to providing disabled access to Addiscombe (Bingham Road) tram stop which was costed against the removal of the embankment. As I previously stated it was found that the costs of both options were similar and the ease of level access for passengers plus the tramway having numerous level crossings and the removal of the residents' objections is why they went for the level option at Addiscombe Tram Stop.
@@fluxingtonI've not been around Croydon for about 18 months now but the buses routes which would have had the negotiate the bridge over the lower Addiscombe road were operated with single decker buses (289, 312, 367) last time I was there
@@shaunhouse2013That may have been because Spring Lane had a weight limit because of the weak bridge over the tram line. When the bridges were first removed, the 12A became the 312 which was double deck.
07:02 The platform lengthening was all part of the 1950s 10-car train lengthening scheme. At the time it was assumed that there would be direct (peak time) trains between Charing Cross/Cannon Street and Sanderstead as well as to/from Hayes and Addiscombe. Certainly the South Eastern Division of BR could not operate trains of different lengths in their London termini. 07:53 Addiscombe was spared closure not because it was a bit busier. The actual reason was because as part of electrification in 1935 a relatively big train shed was built at Addiscombe for berthing trains plus it was a driver's depot. So whilst there were few passengers on the Addiscombe line, the 2-car all day service was a useful 'taxi' for train crews. Indeed, up until it was closed as a train depot Addiscombe had a few peak time direct trains to/from London which were 10-cars in length. Until the 1990s there was a shortage of train berthing locations on the South Eastern Division. Due to lack of funds in BR there was no money to build new train berthing locations. So BR had to keep open smaller train berthing locations, such as Addiscombe. Effectively this stopped the Addiscombe line from closing in 1983. 11:00 When the original Tramlink plans were announced the residents between Addiscombe (Bingham Road) and Sandilands objected on the grounds that the trams would be on an embankment and the passengers would be able to look into their gardens. The residents suggested that the line instead cross Lower Addiscombe Road and Bingham Road at ground level. The Tramlink consultants found that the cost of removing the embankment (and lowering the line) was approximately the same as the cost of providing access for the disabled to the Bingham Road tram stop so they agreed to that idea (which also removed those objections).
@@mildlydispleased3221 Also if that stopped a shedload of objections and got the line built then that is a small price to pay. To be fair the residents had over 15 years of no trains at the bottom of their garden and before that only around 8 trains each way a day 5 days a week with few passengers on them compared to a tram every 5 minutes or so 7 days a week. Obviously one of the reasons for the trams was to reduce car usage so causing a bit of additional road congestion would only help the tram proposal.
Great to have all this extra information, thank you. Still amazed that BR thought it would ever be worth running full length trains beyond Elmers End when there was no evidence that traffic would ever justify it, they could have saved themselves quite a bit of money.
@@iankemp1131It was around the time of the 1955 modernisation plan when BR had to spend money quickly or lose it even if it was a waste of money. Also it was operationally convenient to have full length trains operating the full route, even if at the country end of their journey they would have been quite empty.
It's amazing how your mind can play tricks on you. I used to go to Beavers at a Scout hut further south along this line in the mid 1980s near Croham Road. I was sure trains used to pass the hut but they can't have as the line closed 2 to 3 years earlier. 😅
Thanks for this one! In 1991 as a student at Croydon College of Art I moved to digs in Northampton Road, the corner of which is visible under the bridge at 0:35. The disused railway ran past the bottom of our garden. The bridge decks on Bingham road and Lower Addiscombe Road were gone by then, but most of the brickwork and buildings were still there along with various other bits of infrastructure including the Bingham Road phonebox which you just see the roof of behind the green van. It took 10p coins to phone home in those days!
A friend lived in a bungalow that backed on to the line, just up from where you filmed. We once walked a section of the track heading South, which went through a tunnel and emerged on a viaduct. This would have been around the mid 90s after it was closed, but probably prior to the Tramlink construction works.
Since the coming of modern trams/light rail, I have often wondered why this has (generally) been so successful. What is it about trams that beats normal rail, buses, etc? Some of the answers are probably routes going where people want them, ease of use, capacity (compared to buses), convenience, etc. But possibly the main advantage is one Jago highlights in this video - frequency. Until moving to Darkest Kent in the 80s, I lived in and around London. In all that time, I rarely consulted a train timetable, and didn't even know buses ran to a timetable! You just wait for a while and one always turns up - it was like imaging that the central part of the Underground ran to a timetable! But now, away from the convenience of urban/suburban London, every journey has to be planned, often in detail. And if anything goes wrong, you're stuck somewhere cold, dark and wet, not knowing when (if ever) the next train or bus will arrive. Sod all that, let's just take the car. Living in and around London, everyone I knew took the bus or train to get almost anywhere - why take the car when the roads were crammed and parking was a nightmare? But where I live now, I am the only person I know who regularly uses the bus, or goes anywhere other than London than by train. And most people simply don't use buses, and, if they had to, they wouldn't know how. Give people public transport that goes where they want to go, is easy to use, comfortable - and, most of all, frequent - and people will use it.
In my home town the tube ran to a timetable. It took me forever to not get used to not having a timetable in London. After a few years I moved to a trainline and timetables were back in my life.
@@tamara3984 there actually are timetables for the tube, but you have to live in the outskirts to need to use them. For instance Metropolitan trains to Chesham only run every half hour off-peak, so it's a bugger if you miss one.
Frequency is absolutely the key here. If the train is every hour, it is probably going to be quicker to walk than wait for it, and you have to check timetables and plan in advance.
In the case of Croydon the overriding factor is that the tram actually takes people where they want to go - into the centre of Croydon - unlike the original railway. Hence the splitting of the Elmers End - Coombe Road section into two. And it's quicker and more reliable than buses because of the long segregated sections of track, besides being more comfortable.
Interesting that that was the delineation of halt vs station in Britain at the time! In the German-speaking parts of the world, the difference tends to be that unlike a station, a halt doesn't have any points - meaning no shunting can take place, thus all trains can do is perform a halt.
There's such a significant difference between the Germanic usage of "bahnhof" and "haltestelle" and the British "station" and "halt" that they probably shouldn't be translated using those terms in an operational context. Partly it comes down to the Germanic "base railway" historically being single track with passing loops at stations whereas the British "base railway" rapidly evolved into being double track, thus not needing loops, and partly due to the culture where the station manager/supervisor in the Germanic system is the movement controller (and has direct responsibility for that) whereas in the British system the station master was only ever the first-line supervisor of the movement controller (signalman in UK parlance, or the genderfree signaller today). One reason the Abermule accident in 1921 is so interesting to the student of railways is that the Cambrian Railways used a set-up closer to that of the German system where the token authorising entry to successive single track section was under the control of the station master rather than the signalman as would have been the case elsewhere in Britain.
@@atraindriverthis was very interesting, thank you! And you just reminded me how the single track sections of railway between Aberdeen and Inverness (through Keith etc) rely on physical tokens.
As an indication of how unpopular the station (& the route) were, Bingham Road was literally at the bottom of our garden when I was a boy. Our garden boundary was the fence at the bottom of the embankment. So far as I am aware, none of us ever set foot in the station. Certainly I didn't. If we wanted a train we went to East Croydon.
If you do the proposed line to Orpington, also take a look at the failed idea of extending the Westerham branch to Godstone. I seem to remember there was this idea about a home counties "ring" railway which saw plans for building lines like the Watford to Uxbridge line which no doubt would have connected further round coming round the backside of Staines and Kingston etc to strive off towards Croydon.
If you take a footpath between roads in South Croydon there is still a footbridge over what was the Spencer Road halt and the rails plus some platform supports are still visible in the undergrowth below. I recall, as a young lad with my friends, throwing lit bangers up the stairwell of Bingham Road Station and running away. 😂
Great vid. As a 12 year old lad in 1956/7 I delivered newspapers for the shop that was under the station at Bingham Road. 06.30 start 7 days a week for 5 shillings (25 pence) a week.
I worked in the Control Room at Charing Cross from 1979-83. If my memory serves me correctly, I believe that there was one through train from Charing Cross to Sanderstead via the Mid-Kent toward the end of the evening peak in 1979. I think that it departed CX at 18:28.
At one stage (mid 70s?) I remember there being one through train to Sanderstead but at the beginning of the evening peak rather than the end, about 1600. All the others turned round at Selsdon. I travelled on the line just before it closed and it was then just an Elmers End-Selsdon peak hours shuttle. All the (few) passengers were railway enthusiasts as far as I could see. I wondered then how the line had lasted so long and why it had been electrified - this video gave most of the answer (I think the electrification was also because it was hoped it would be a useful diversionary route - seems optimistic).
Thank you for very kindly responding to my comment, Ian. It's always good when people do this! You could well be correct in the timing of the Charing Cross to Sanderstead through train. I have to admit that my memory for such details is hazy these days! The actual timing, assuming this, would have been 16:08 as Mid-Kent Line trains departed in a pattern of XX:08/48 with the other in the twenty-minute slot departing from Cannon Street.@@iankemp1131
@@stuarthall6631 I think the mid-70s train though arrived at Sanderstead around 1630, so maybe 1508/1528 from London or just from Elmers End - I did some planning to try to ride on it as part of exploring all Britain's passenger lines but as a teenager did not have the money. I did eventually achieve that goal but not for another 20+ years! Buried somewhere in the house I still have the old BR timetables for those years. The Charing Cross-Sanderstead through train seems like a "last fling" by BR. I'm sure it had gone by the time I travelled the line in 1983 just before closure, when it was just a 2 coach shuttle from Elmers End at the morning and evening peak.
..... Although I don't remember the precise timing, this through working was definitely in 1979 and no later (or, at least, no later than the May, 1980 timetable change). By the way, another interesting working which was withdrawn at this same tine was the 18:45 Charing Cross to Hastings which had an Oxted unit attached at the London end. The train was divided at Tonbridge and the Oxted formed a through-working to Eridge. @@iankemp1131
Lived there in 70s & 80s. Our garden backed onto the track. The service on this line was only morning & evening rush hours M-F. My sister & I used to sit at the bottom of the garden & wave at the trains, and Bingham Road station was a playground for us! Happy days......
Video suggestion: Please make a video about the former cinemas at Waterloo and Victoria stations. I recently saw an interesting CZcams video about them, but I'm curious to see what your take on them would be and if you'd be able to dig up any more interesting facts. What prompted me to suggest this is that at Waterloo, the only remaining trace of the cinema is the imprint of a staircase on the brick wall outside on the cab road.
The Waterloo one remained empty for many years after closure, with the entrance next to platform 1. I think the outside staircase was a fire exit. Originally the projection room was above the auditorium with rear projection onto the screen, but this was later changed to a more conventional arrangement. The Victoria one was demolished soon after closure to make way for the new shops and food court above. I visited it twice, once as a childish my mother when it was showing mainly cartoons, but we also saw a Laurel and Hardy short. I think it was the very next day that it was reported on the papers that Stan had died, so he probably died on the actual day that we were there. My second visit was on the evening of the closure. The last item shown was a nitrate print of a newsreel from the opening year, 1937 I think. After the final show they allowed visits to the projection room, but not until the nitrate had been removed. This was during the brief period when I had a car, and I had to go to collect my mother from somewhere, so I wasn’t able to wait. I have since discovered two more stations which had news theatres. One was at Leeds. If you walk along the North concourse towards the exit at the far end there is a stone or concrete slab on the floor bearing the words ‘News theatre’ it’s in front of a shop on the right site. While the entrance was from the station I think the auditorium would probably have been within the hotel building, so the space may still exist in some other use. The other one I know of was at Grand Central Terminal in New York. I was told where it was, but when I was there I could see no trace of it, the area is now shops.
Spencer Road Halt station is still there. If you follow the alleyway through to Birdhurst Rise, the route takes you across the old platforms and over the footbridge. Even the railway lines are still there underneath the forage. Trains haven’t stopped at that station for over a hundred years though 😂
There's a place in Edmonton, North London, called _"Tramway Avenue"_ that's always fascinated me. How'd it get its name? Why is it there? What were tram routes like in Enfield? I've been saying for yonks that Enfield deserves to have decent trams like Plzeň or Amsterdam. It's silly that you have all that space in the borough and yet they don't give us anything except buses. And excessive car traffic.
My old neighbour used to work at Bingham Rd station as station staff. Not being from Croydon I was amazed to find out how big the station used to be, and on an embankment as well. The tram is so useful and its a shame the connection to Crystal Palace that was proposed wasn't actually undertaken. Maybe it'll be progressed one day. I'm beginning to think you are Croydon based with all these tram stop videos!
@@robertb7918 Trams cope well enough with hills elsewhere. Supertram copes despite Sheffield being infamously hilly, as is Dudley which will 'soon' be served by the Midland Metro (only 40 years after it was originally proposed, but never mind!)
@@robertb7918 the route proposed was from the Harrington Road/Birkbeck tram stops and along the current rail route to Crystal Palace rather than on road.
I lived in Seldon/Sanderstead border as a kid and used to take that line to my friend Dave's house near Woodside/Addiscombe. Don't recall ever paying, which can't have helped it's profitability...
I like how you explained about abandoned stations before Tramlink was built and was built on former railway lines. Such a shame that many of former London’s railways have disappeared because of the Beeching cuts and everything was lost for development and also used as tramways, roads and public footpaths.
Thanks to Earnest Marples diverting government funding from rail to roads, we now have a lot of car dependency and are going to struggle to reduce climate change damage until we get the equivalent of a motorway network for trains (i.e. high speed raiilways) so that the existing mainlines can get rid of express trains and start providing metro services for cities other than London. As someone with shares in a company that directly profited from railways being closed and motorways being constructed, Marples had a conflict of interest and should not have been serving as Minister for Transport.
You can’t thank him for safe roads just a minimum standard for the maintenance of vehicles on our roads. Too many people just rely on a MOT to keep their vehicles roadworthy rather than getting them serviced as well.
The UK isn't the only country with annual checks, and have to pass in order to be allowed on the road. Even too much rust can make a car fail the inspection in countries like Germany, Belgium, etc.
Places like Beckenham Place Park in recent years have been converted from a golf range to basically South London's best park. We should be doing more of these projects, if you want to go golfing you can drive out to the home counties if I'm honest.
The demolition of the Bingham Road bridge meant LRT could finally replace the single deck (Leyland National) 12A route (Peckham to South Croydon) by double deckers and renumber it as 312. Only to now cut back the 312 to run Norwood Junction to South Croydon (the 197 taking over the Norwood Junction to Peckham section - itsrlf having been cut back from Norwood Juntion to Caterham Valley to Norwood Junction to Croydon Katherine Street) and replaced by singke deck midi buses...
The pre-1972 situation was that the 12 bus served the Lower Addiscombe Road. It was operated by RTs which were a bit lower than the RMs which were planned to replace the RTs. The replacement of the RTs by RMs meant that the route had to be cut back to Norwood Junction and replaced by the 12A. And Katharine St please.
@@robertbutlin3708 RTs are signed as the same height as RMs, 14 ft 6 in. According Wikipedia RTs are actually 0.75 HIGHER than an RM. The route cutback was probably more to do with service cutbacks and OMO.
I think there are a few other abandoned stations on the Tramlink in South London when parts of it was National Rail and had DC 750v 3rd Rail. But it’s nice to see that trams running on former railway lines in South London.
Fascinating, I always wondered why there was so little sign of Bingham Road at Addiscombe (new). I travelled on the Elmers End-Selsdon link just before closure (peak hours only, one Parliamentary train through to Sanderstead) and wondered then why it had been electrified and why it hadn't been axed by Beeching. I think it was viewed at times as a possible diversionary route round Croydon, rather scuppered by the Oxted/East Gristead line not being electrified. The Tramlink is far more successful, because unlike the railway, it does what passengers actually want to do - run into Croydon town centre (like the Croydon trams) - plus it has the useful extension to New Addington.
When I was a child in the early 70's, I was fascinated by Bingham Road station as it was always closed when we passed it on Saturday walks from home to Addiscombe / Ashburton Park. I only ever saw 1 train cross the bridge over Lower Addiscombe Road and that was on the way home from school in 1981/2. Used to walk past Addiscombe station too; never saw a train arrive/depart from there either - only rafts of 4 epb's parked up...
The actual justification for Tramlilnk was to make better use of 2 underused lines plus provide rail access to New Addington (which was a deprived area)
@@PStaveley And given the way things work in this country, it was probably the deprived area element which finally got the funding approved. The Ivanhoe Line in Leicestershire and the Robin Hood line in Nottinghamshire & Derbyshire also got funded on the basis of deprived areas after the destruction of the mining industry. The RHL kept its funding for political reasons which are still too divisive to go into here, but the Ivanhoe line was defunded in the run up to BR privatisation once the initial part (reopening stations on the Midland Main Line between Leicester and Loughborough) had been confirmed. The section through the coal-mining area between Leicester and Burton has just been refunded as a sop to the East Midlands for the loss of HS2 (using moneys taken from the defunding of the northern leg of HS2 just to add a little bit more divide and conquer to the whole saga).
Great video as usual, that is perhaps the highest compliment you’ve ever given us viewers.. “You’re the new railway proposal to my abandoned line.” Awww ty you too!
And Hey Presto you found a use for that shot of Boxhill! Don't know where your footage at 8:00 was taken, but the view of the two TV masts was "lump in the throat from my childhood" time....
20 years ago, I was living very close to Spencer Road, and the footbridge still existed. Around that time, they found a cadaver on the overgrown trackbed that had been there for decades. Anything south of Coombe Road was ignored.
It’s interesting that you mention Tony Hancock. Ian Hislop in his excellent 2008 documentary “Ian Hislop Goes Off the Rails” shows that Hancock was hired by BR to help the public accept the Beeching cuts. It’s available on CZcams. Hislop also said that Beeching’s local station was also saved.
Southern Heights! Video? Yes please. I’ve heard of the Northern Heights many times on this channel but never thought “Northern” meant there was a “Southern”. Sorry Jago that you’ve got such a dense subscriber.
Well I thought I knew the local railway history fairly well, but the Southern Heights proposal was a completely new one to me. The Southern Railway was in expansionist mood at the time - the Wimbledon to Sutton line being an example.
Never really paid that in mind when I was last there during a period I was having counselling, watching this nowadays, never really knew there WAS a station there
I remember stripping out the signalling from the line for reuse by the Mid Hants. It was quite a strange experience there was remarkably little vandalism you half expected a train to appear and I remember walking along the embankments looking down at the back gardens. The tunnels were interesting.
Southern Heights proposal threads its way through some of the most hilly parts of the North Downs - the construction challenges alone would've doomed it before we even look at potential ridership \m/
I'm old enough to remember Marples. The conflict of interest over motorway construction you mention was the least of his dodginess and the most boring bit. He somehow managed to avoid fatal entanglement in the Profumo affair, but more recent research has established that the rumours flying around at the time were true, and has even added some lurid detail. Never mind, being 17 or 18 at the time, I asserted they were all true anyway. It's nice to be proved right about 60 years later, even though I was just busking with political animus but no solid evidence. I wasn't the only person doing that, of course, but others did mostly remember to insert or say "alleged" and they'll mostly be dead now. Then there was Maudling ... but that's probably enough of corrupt politicians. Nothing now is new, see, and if anyone tells you there was some golden age of political rectitude and competence in the past they're fantasists.
The difference is that historically it was accepted that politicians would line their own pockets, whereas nowadays we have some fantasy that they're all there only to serve the public despite the huge amounts of evidence that all too many of them are possibly even more corrupt than those politicians of an earlier era were.
Did you know there was another station called Bingham Road? It was on the Great Northern/London & North Western Joint line from Nottingham to Melton Mowbray.
...and was actually somewhere vaguely near Bingham, which still has a station on the GN Nottingham - Grantham line. In the days of roller blinds, out of service East Midlands trains could quite often be seen displaying the destination Bingham as a way of honouring a colleague who'd died suddenly.
The trackbed from Selsdon Road up to almost where the tram deviates from the railway route and shoots off East to Addington is still there. There are a few bridges and two footbridges have been kept intact. The track itself is still there and the bridges have those "If you see anyone striking this bridge..." sign just in case you might have blocked the line over and above all the shrubs. I can't help wondering if there is a file somewhere that says one day this line could be put to use again.
One tiny elephant in the room I have not seen (even) you mention, but which has lingered in a dusty corner of my mind's attic for donkey's years, is exactly why nobody, but nobody, ever seems to have associated the Sanderstead line with the Oxted line and the lines for East Grinstead, Uckfield, and back in the day even Tunbridge Wells, Lewes, and Hailsham that fanned out from it. I mean, if you just *looked* at the map without any knowledge of its history (imagine it being labeled in Chinese or Arabic or something) it just jumps out at you (or at least it does at me) that it would be a very handy way for trains from as far away as New Haven or Eastbourne (cuckoo!) to avoid the congestion of East Croydon (you do mention in the video that East Croydon was congested, and presumably it still is). I admit it may just be because I did not have the dubious benefit of knowing the line's history, but to be honest I am as baffled as ever at this universal blind spot 🙃
8:35 Ernest Marples also put through The Transport Act 1962, which made it a lot easier to close rail lines in Britain. Except those in his own electorate, of course! Marples also got caught in the net of Lord Denning's 1963 investigation into the security aspects of the Profumo affair; Marples was (also) found to avail himself of the services of Prostitutes. That finding was suppressed (in true Establishment tradition) until 2020 by investigative journalist Tom Mangold. Read all about it in Marples bio: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernest_Marples
I wonder what the little hut with green doors and gable ends is.There is now a power transformer in it's "front yard" but it already was there in the photo of the railway viaduct - and it doesn't look like a building associated with the electric grid.
You have to remember that British Rail was umpteen different departments, regions and organisations operating under one banner and only vaguely working under the control of the BR Board. Just because one bit of BR wanted something to happen doesn't mean that other bits were even aware of it let alone agreed with it!
I would love you to do a vid on London station public conveniences, only so I could hear you say at the end, 'You are the toilet roll to my hour of need" ! PLEASE!
Marples is a standard issue of his political hue with the “I’m alright Jack” attitude. Slashing railways everywhere else, and trying to save the ones that affect his electorate. It’s a story as old as democracy itself.
Lenghtening the platforms could have been a way to increase the operating costs of the station and the line, making an even stronger case for closure. I know we did that in Belgium, e.g. a few stations on I think line 106 or 107 got brand-new stations and signal boxes just a few years before they finally closed, somewhere in the 90s.
It’s not unknown in the UK to do underhand tactics too. Often we’ll make a service so unusable, that passengers leave and we can then claim that “nobody uses it”. Recently, our national rail operator in Scotland tried to slash their timetable based on passenger figures coming out of the pandemic. But oddly, as they were claiming that nobody commutes anymore, it was evening and weekend services they were trying to cut. Completely false logic. Thankfully, their consultation had a huge response (including a few pages from myself), and most of the proposed changes were scrapped. Also, as an anecdote… I work in railway infrastructure, and it’s a running joke that when the company turns up to refurbish your building, it means it’s about to be demolished. Can’t have it going without a fresh coat of paint. A building I worked in had several hundred thousand pounds spent on high security features (turning it from an anonymous brick building to something people might suddenly be interested in), three years before it closed.
Addiscombe tram stop is nearer what people from the area would recognise as the centre of the community of Addiscombe than the location of the Addiscombe railway station, so progress?
That curve is interesting because it was built due to politics around running trains into Crystal Palace High Level. The southern end end of the curve with Beckenham Road Tram Stop is also the site of another closed station on the Tramlink network, called Penge. But that station only lasted about two years (from 1858 to 1860), and there's no remains of it today.
The trams didn't succeed because they were a happy medium between buses and trains but because they went somewhere people wanted to go - Croydon town centre - rather than between two suburbs that didn't really need a rail link.
It would be interesting to know how much of the original alignment has been used - has the entire length been dropped a couple of metres, does the track dip down to street level from high level a few miles away, or does it merge onto the old alignment (so potentially leaving evidence at one or both ends of the original level)?
Red lights don't apply to White Van Men, who have the right of way over all other traffic and self-granted authorisation to ignore all road traffic law.
Having been along the tram line a few times I never realised there was an embankment and "high level" station. And bits of it are still there. For now. Do you happen to know if there are plans afoot to add to the tram system?
Difficult to imagine an embankment and the gradients required to climb them to get to a high level station. There are loads of photos on the Disused Stations website which demonstrate.
Im a 30 year old australian man and i dont know why im so fascinated with this channel
Yeah i live in sydney so im just dreaming about functioning transport that goes to places that dont suck
Maybe if your great grandfather wasn’t such a criminal you’d be riding these instead of worrying about China
I recon it’s Jago’s calm relaxed witty presentation. He could make a video about paint drying and I’d be fascinated.
You might be autistic with transit based characteristics.
You may be allowed a capital card when you have finished your sentence 😂
The Croydon tram is an excellent example of what good urban transport planning can be.
yep i agree
It's very good. Started under the Tories without the GLC or GLA, and financed by public-private initiative, before the latest lot started putting their hands in the till again, like Marples did in the 1960s. Only a question mark still remains over the conditions under which its drivers were operating and its trackside infrastructure was configured, after the 2016 accident happened. (The driver has since been cleared.)
@@SampleTracks2224 The issue of speeding around the sharp bends was considered but it was considered that the drivers would be extremely familiar with the route and it was all driven on-sight and had good braking capacities; so the risk was considered to be low.
but also an example of wasted opportunities. what's there is working great - why was it never extended? It's been 10 years since the Sutton Link proposal and nothing's been done except endless consultations.
@@mildlydispleased3221I think the Sutton extension was dead over 10 years ago if not longer (certainly it was not an option by 2019).
In any case the current Bakerloo Line extension proposal is only to Lewisham. However, the route has been safeguarded to Ladywell and therefore could extend to Hayes but I doubt that will happen for 30+ years.
There are no plans that I am aware of to extend Tramlink north of Elmers End.
Jago, you are a wizard!
You just turned a broken brick wall next to a tram line into a really informative 10 min video. I am as impressed as entertained!
You are the first CZcams channel that I have heard mention Ernie Marples running from tax debt. Well done.
Right old crook,wasn't he?
@rjjcms1 indeed he was.
I always thought it was strange that the Tramlink has two level crossings so close to eachother, it’s far from an ideal layout especially for what was a heavy rail line. To find out they removed bridges and embankments is sort of blowing my mind as that’s the exact opposite of what planners normally try and do!
The two level crossings work well. The first crossing is triggered by the approaching tram. The second crossing is triggered when the tram driver presses a button in the cab which triggers a sequence to change the traffic lights/signals for the crossing past the stop. The latter system is used for various crossings and tram signals elsewhere on the network.
As the tram is crossing there are also green lights for pedestrians to cross the road (not the tram line of course), which is useful if you have just alighted from a tram.
The bridge across the Addiscombe Road was removed long before the tram system appeared. It allowed double deck busses to run on what was then the 312 route. Previously this route was the 12A running from Dulwich and Norwood Junction to Croydon, using single deck Leyland Nationals. The 12A was what remained of the number 12 route from Oxford Circus which started to terminate at Norwood Junction and eventually Dulwich.
@@fluxington Actually route 12 (prior to 1972 when it was shortened) was operated by RTs, so double deck buses used to be able to get under the bridge on Lower Addiscombe Road. Route 12A was introduced in 1972 and operated by SMS so that it could be one-man operated. I suspect that over the years the road surface was raised/bridge height signs lowered (to be more cautious) meaning that double deck buses could not then be used until the bridge (on Lower Addiscome Road) was removed in the mid 1980s.
Indeed thanks for reminding me that one of the costs that Tramlink consultants initially assumed was replacing the bridge and raising it (in order to maintain double deck bus capability) and that raising of the track was in addition to providing disabled access to Addiscombe (Bingham Road) tram stop which was costed against the removal of the embankment. As I previously stated it was found that the costs of both options were similar and the ease of level access for passengers plus the tramway having numerous level crossings and the removal of the residents' objections is why they went for the level option at Addiscombe Tram Stop.
@@fluxingtonI've not been around Croydon for about 18 months now but the buses routes which would have had the negotiate the bridge over the lower Addiscombe road were operated with single decker buses (289, 312, 367) last time I was there
@@shaunhouse2013That may have been because Spring Lane had a weight limit because of the weak bridge over the tram line. When the bridges were first removed, the 12A became the 312 which was double deck.
07:02 The platform lengthening was all part of the 1950s 10-car train lengthening scheme. At the time it was assumed that there would be direct (peak time) trains between Charing Cross/Cannon Street and Sanderstead as well as to/from Hayes and Addiscombe. Certainly the South Eastern Division of BR could not operate trains of different lengths in their London termini.
07:53 Addiscombe was spared closure not because it was a bit busier. The actual reason was because as part of electrification in 1935 a relatively big train shed was built at Addiscombe for berthing trains plus it was a driver's depot. So whilst there were few passengers on the Addiscombe line, the 2-car all day service was a useful 'taxi' for train crews.
Indeed, up until it was closed as a train depot Addiscombe had a few peak time direct trains to/from London which were 10-cars in length.
Until the 1990s there was a shortage of train berthing locations on the South Eastern Division. Due to lack of funds in BR there was no money to build new train berthing locations. So BR had to keep open smaller train berthing locations, such as Addiscombe. Effectively this stopped the Addiscombe line from closing in 1983.
11:00 When the original Tramlink plans were announced the residents between Addiscombe (Bingham Road) and Sandilands objected on the grounds that the trams would be on an embankment and the passengers would be able to look into their gardens. The residents suggested that the line instead cross Lower Addiscombe Road and Bingham Road at ground level.
The Tramlink consultants found that the cost of removing the embankment (and lowering the line) was approximately the same as the cost of providing access for the disabled to the Bingham Road tram stop so they agreed to that idea (which also removed those objections).
@@mildlydispleased3221 Also if that stopped a shedload of objections and got the line built then that is a small price to pay.
To be fair the residents had over 15 years of no trains at the bottom of their garden and before that only around 8 trains each way a day 5 days a week with few passengers on them compared to a tram every 5 minutes or so 7 days a week.
Obviously one of the reasons for the trams was to reduce car usage so causing a bit of additional road congestion would only help the tram proposal.
Great to have all this extra information, thank you. Still amazed that BR thought it would ever be worth running full length trains beyond Elmers End when there was no evidence that traffic would ever justify it, they could have saved themselves quite a bit of money.
@@iankemp1131It was around the time of the 1955 modernisation plan when BR had to spend money quickly or lose it even if it was a waste of money.
Also it was operationally convenient to have full length trains operating the full route, even if at the country end of their journey they would have been quite empty.
It's amazing how your mind can play tricks on you. I used to go to Beavers at a Scout hut further south along this line in the mid 1980s near Croham Road.
I was sure trains used to pass the hut but they can't have as the line closed 2 to 3 years earlier. 😅
I was just thinking how nice and gentle the ramp up to the platform looked, compared to waiting around for multiple lifts to cross a railway bridge!
Thanks for this one! In 1991 as a student at Croydon College of Art I moved to digs in Northampton Road, the corner of which is visible under the bridge at 0:35. The disused railway ran past the bottom of our garden. The bridge decks on Bingham road and Lower Addiscombe Road were gone by then, but most of the brickwork and buildings were still there along with various other bits of infrastructure including the Bingham Road phonebox which you just see the roof of behind the green van. It took 10p coins to phone home in those days!
A friend lived in a bungalow that backed on to the line, just up from where you filmed. We once walked a section of the track heading South, which went through a tunnel and emerged on a viaduct. This would have been around the mid 90s after it was closed, but probably prior to the Tramlink construction works.
Since the coming of modern trams/light rail, I have often wondered why this has (generally) been so successful. What is it about trams that beats normal rail, buses, etc?
Some of the answers are probably routes going where people want them, ease of use, capacity (compared to buses), convenience, etc. But possibly the main advantage is one Jago highlights in this video - frequency.
Until moving to Darkest Kent in the 80s, I lived in and around London. In all that time, I rarely consulted a train timetable, and didn't even know buses ran to a timetable! You just wait for a while and one always turns up - it was like imaging that the central part of the Underground ran to a timetable!
But now, away from the convenience of urban/suburban London, every journey has to be planned, often in detail. And if anything goes wrong, you're stuck somewhere cold, dark and wet, not knowing when (if ever) the next train or bus will arrive. Sod all that, let's just take the car.
Living in and around London, everyone I knew took the bus or train to get almost anywhere - why take the car when the roads were crammed and parking was a nightmare?
But where I live now, I am the only person I know who regularly uses the bus, or goes anywhere other than London than by train. And most people simply don't use buses, and, if they had to, they wouldn't know how.
Give people public transport that goes where they want to go, is easy to use, comfortable - and, most of all, frequent - and people will use it.
In my home town the tube ran to a timetable. It took me forever to not get used to not having a timetable in London. After a few years I moved to a trainline and timetables were back in my life.
@@tamara3984 there actually are timetables for the tube, but you have to live in the outskirts to need to use them. For instance Metropolitan trains to Chesham only run every half hour off-peak, so it's a bugger if you miss one.
Frequency is absolutely the key here. If the train is every hour, it is probably going to be quicker to walk than wait for it, and you have to check timetables and plan in advance.
In the case of Croydon the overriding factor is that the tram actually takes people where they want to go - into the centre of Croydon - unlike the original railway. Hence the splitting of the Elmers End - Coombe Road section into two. And it's quicker and more reliable than buses because of the long segregated sections of track, besides being more comfortable.
@@paulhaynes8045 yeah I have learned that since, but I was in zone 2 in those days.
Interesting that that was the delineation of halt vs station in Britain at the time! In the German-speaking parts of the world, the difference tends to be that unlike a station, a halt doesn't have any points - meaning no shunting can take place, thus all trains can do is perform a halt.
There's such a significant difference between the Germanic usage of "bahnhof" and "haltestelle" and the British "station" and "halt" that they probably shouldn't be translated using those terms in an operational context.
Partly it comes down to the Germanic "base railway" historically being single track with passing loops at stations whereas the British "base railway" rapidly evolved into being double track, thus not needing loops, and partly due to the culture where the station manager/supervisor in the Germanic system is the movement controller (and has direct responsibility for that) whereas in the British system the station master was only ever the first-line supervisor of the movement controller (signalman in UK parlance, or the genderfree signaller today).
One reason the Abermule accident in 1921 is so interesting to the student of railways is that the Cambrian Railways used a set-up closer to that of the German system where the token authorising entry to successive single track section was under the control of the station master rather than the signalman as would have been the case elsewhere in Britain.
@@atraindriverthis was very interesting, thank you! And you just reminded me how the single track sections of railway between Aberdeen and Inverness (through Keith etc) rely on physical tokens.
As an indication of how unpopular the station (& the route) were, Bingham Road was literally at the bottom of our garden when I was a boy. Our garden boundary was the fence at the bottom of the embankment. So far as I am aware, none of us ever set foot in the station. Certainly I didn't. If we wanted a train we went to East Croydon.
Only Jago could make a 13 minute video out of "a sort of broken looking wall". :D
If you do the proposed line to Orpington, also take a look at the failed idea of extending the Westerham branch to Godstone. I seem to remember there was this idea about a home counties "ring" railway which saw plans for building lines like the Watford to Uxbridge line which no doubt would have connected further round coming round the backside of Staines and Kingston etc to strive off towards Croydon.
there was a line to Westerham problem is built the M25 over part of it
If you take a footpath between roads in South Croydon there is still a footbridge over what was the Spencer Road halt and the rails plus some platform supports are still visible in the undergrowth below. I recall, as a young lad with my friends, throwing lit bangers up the stairwell of Bingham Road Station and running away. 😂
Great vid. As a 12 year old lad in 1956/7 I delivered newspapers for the shop that was under the station at Bingham Road. 06.30 start 7 days a week for 5 shillings (25 pence) a week.
I worked in the Control Room at Charing Cross from 1979-83. If my memory serves me correctly, I believe that there was one through train from Charing Cross to Sanderstead via the Mid-Kent toward the end of the evening peak in 1979. I think that it departed CX at 18:28.
At one stage (mid 70s?) I remember there being one through train to Sanderstead but at the beginning of the evening peak rather than the end, about 1600. All the others turned round at Selsdon. I travelled on the line just before it closed and it was then just an Elmers End-Selsdon peak hours shuttle. All the (few) passengers were railway enthusiasts as far as I could see. I wondered then how the line had lasted so long and why it had been electrified - this video gave most of the answer (I think the electrification was also because it was hoped it would be a useful diversionary route - seems optimistic).
Thank you for very kindly responding to my comment, Ian. It's always good when people do this! You could well be correct in the timing of the Charing Cross to Sanderstead through train. I have to admit that my memory for such details is hazy these days! The actual timing, assuming this, would have been 16:08 as Mid-Kent Line trains departed in a pattern of XX:08/48 with the other in the twenty-minute slot departing from Cannon Street.@@iankemp1131
@@stuarthall6631 I think the mid-70s train though arrived at Sanderstead around 1630, so maybe 1508/1528 from London or just from Elmers End - I did some planning to try to ride on it as part of exploring all Britain's passenger lines but as a teenager did not have the money. I did eventually achieve that goal but not for another 20+ years! Buried somewhere in the house I still have the old BR timetables for those years. The Charing Cross-Sanderstead through train seems like a "last fling" by BR. I'm sure it had gone by the time I travelled the line in 1983 just before closure, when it was just a 2 coach shuttle from Elmers End at the morning and evening peak.
..... Although I don't remember the precise timing, this through working was definitely in 1979 and no later (or, at least, no later than the May, 1980 timetable change). By the way, another interesting working which was withdrawn at this same tine was the 18:45 Charing Cross to Hastings which had an Oxted unit attached at the London end. The train was divided at Tonbridge and the Oxted formed a through-working to Eridge. @@iankemp1131
Lived there in 70s & 80s. Our garden backed onto the track. The service on this line was only morning & evening rush hours M-F. My sister & I used to sit at the bottom of the garden & wave at the trains, and Bingham Road station was a playground for us! Happy days......
I am the sister. Many happy memories
Video suggestion: Please make a video about the former cinemas at Waterloo and Victoria stations. I recently saw an interesting CZcams video about them, but I'm curious to see what your take on them would be and if you'd be able to dig up any more interesting facts. What prompted me to suggest this is that at Waterloo, the only remaining trace of the cinema is the imprint of a staircase on the brick wall outside on the cab road.
The Waterloo one remained empty for many years after closure, with the entrance next to platform 1. I think the outside staircase was a fire exit. Originally the projection room was above the auditorium with rear projection onto the screen, but this was later changed to a more conventional arrangement.
The Victoria one was demolished soon after closure to make way for the new shops and food court above. I visited it twice, once as a childish my mother when it was showing mainly cartoons, but we also saw a Laurel and Hardy short. I think it was the very next day that it was reported on the papers that Stan had died, so he probably died on the actual day that we were there.
My second visit was on the evening of the closure. The last item shown was a nitrate print of a newsreel from the opening year, 1937 I think. After the final show they allowed visits to the projection room, but not until the nitrate had been removed. This was during the brief period when I had a car, and I had to go to collect my mother from somewhere, so I wasn’t able to wait.
I have since discovered two more stations which had news theatres. One was at Leeds. If you walk along the North concourse towards the exit at the far end there is a stone or concrete slab on the floor bearing the words ‘News theatre’ it’s in front of a shop on the right site. While the entrance was from the station I think the auditorium would probably have been within the hotel building, so the space may still exist in some other use.
The other one I know of was at Grand Central Terminal in New York. I was told where it was, but when I was there I could see no trace of it, the area is now shops.
Spencer Road Halt station is still there. If you follow the alleyway through to Birdhurst Rise, the route takes you across the old platforms and over the footbridge. Even the railway lines are still there underneath the forage. Trains haven’t stopped at that station for over a hundred years though 😂
There's a place in Edmonton, North London, called _"Tramway Avenue"_ that's always fascinated me. How'd it get its name? Why is it there? What were tram routes like in Enfield?
I've been saying for yonks that Enfield deserves to have decent trams like Plzeň or Amsterdam. It's silly that you have all that space in the borough and yet they don't give us anything except buses. And excessive car traffic.
It led the the old Edmonton Tram depot (later Trolleybus) where the newer house can be found.
If you do a search for "Trolleybus & Tram Routes (1947)" you'll see a system map. Trams went all the way to Waltham Cross.
My old neighbour used to work at Bingham Rd station as station staff. Not being from Croydon I was amazed to find out how big the station used to be, and on an embankment as well. The tram is so useful and its a shame the connection to Crystal Palace that was proposed wasn't actually undertaken. Maybe it'll be progressed one day. I'm beginning to think you are Croydon based with all these tram stop videos!
I think he lives in the Kingston / Hampton area.
Getting up the steep hill to Crystal Palace would be a big problem for trams - there is a reason why all the railways in that area go through tunnels.
@@robertb7918 The old pre-1953 trams managed Anerley Hill (or so I'm told).
@@robertb7918 Trams cope well enough with hills elsewhere. Supertram copes despite Sheffield being infamously hilly, as is Dudley which will 'soon' be served by the Midland Metro (only 40 years after it was originally proposed, but never mind!)
@@robertb7918 the route proposed was from the Harrington Road/Birkbeck tram stops and along the current rail route to Crystal Palace rather than on road.
I lived in Seldon/Sanderstead border as a kid and used to take that line to my friend Dave's house near Woodside/Addiscombe. Don't recall ever paying, which can't have helped it's profitability...
I like how you explained about abandoned stations before Tramlink was built and was built on former railway lines. Such a shame that many of former London’s railways have disappeared because of the Beeching cuts and everything was lost for development and also used as tramways, roads and public footpaths.
I have another on the way!
Just wanted to say thank you for another interesting video and for being entertaining in your own way.
And thank you!
Brilliant! A Hazzard video at 1 o'clock on a Monday morning. Just what the Doctor ordered. Greetings from New Zealand. 😁
Earnest Marples is the Father of MOT Tests. Thanks to him we have the safest roads in the world, as vehicles are inspected to a standard.
Thanks to Earnest Marples diverting government funding from rail to roads, we now have a lot of car dependency and are going to struggle to reduce climate change damage until we get the equivalent of a motorway network for trains (i.e. high speed raiilways) so that the existing mainlines can get rid of express trains and start providing metro services for cities other than London.
As someone with shares in a company that directly profited from railways being closed and motorways being constructed, Marples had a conflict of interest and should not have been serving as Minister for Transport.
You can’t thank him for safe roads just a minimum standard for the maintenance of vehicles on our roads. Too many people just rely on a MOT to keep their vehicles roadworthy rather than getting them serviced as well.
The UK isn't the only country with annual checks, and have to pass in order to be allowed on the road. Even too much rust can make a car fail the inspection in countries like Germany, Belgium, etc.
@BernardSamson-hf6fc And thanks to Palpatine opera was given extra funding throughout the galaxy.
Stunned how many golf courses are shown on the old map ( crossed golf clubs ) wonder how many still exist .
Places like Beckenham Place Park in recent years have been converted from a golf range to basically South London's best park. We should be doing more of these projects, if you want to go golfing you can drive out to the home counties if I'm honest.
The two at Sundridge Park are still there. There’s a 9 hole at Shortlands.
The demolition of the Bingham Road bridge meant LRT could finally replace the single deck (Leyland National) 12A route (Peckham to South Croydon) by double deckers and renumber it as 312.
Only to now cut back the 312 to run Norwood Junction to South Croydon (the 197 taking over the Norwood Junction to Peckham section - itsrlf having been cut back from Norwood Juntion to Caterham Valley to Norwood Junction to Croydon Katherine Street) and replaced by singke deck midi buses...
The pre-1972 situation was that the 12 bus served the Lower Addiscombe Road. It was operated by RTs which were a bit lower than the RMs which were planned to replace the RTs. The replacement of the RTs by RMs meant that the route had to be cut back to Norwood Junction and replaced by the 12A.
And Katharine St please.
@@robertbutlin3708
And subsequently cut back to the Plough.
(PS Speling never was my forte.)
@@cigmorfil4101 didn’t it have a period only getting as far as Penge, Pawleyne Arms?
@@robertbutlin3708 RTs are signed as the same height as RMs, 14 ft 6 in. According Wikipedia RTs are actually 0.75 HIGHER than an RM. The route cutback was probably more to do with service cutbacks and OMO.
@@PStaveley OK. Did they have the same suspension “play” as the RMs?
For a some time after openning Addiscombe tram stop was just identified as "disco". Some wag had removed the other letters from all the nameboards!
I think there are a few other abandoned stations on the Tramlink in South London when parts of it was National Rail and had DC 750v 3rd Rail. But it’s nice to see that trams running on former railway lines in South London.
Fascinating, I always wondered why there was so little sign of Bingham Road at Addiscombe (new). I travelled on the Elmers End-Selsdon link just before closure (peak hours only, one Parliamentary train through to Sanderstead) and wondered then why it had been electrified and why it hadn't been axed by Beeching. I think it was viewed at times as a possible diversionary route round Croydon, rather scuppered by the Oxted/East Gristead line not being electrified. The Tramlink is far more successful, because unlike the railway, it does what passengers actually want to do - run into Croydon town centre (like the Croydon trams) - plus it has the useful extension to New Addington.
When I was a child in the early 70's, I was fascinated by Bingham Road station as it was always closed when we passed it on Saturday walks from home to Addiscombe / Ashburton Park. I only ever saw 1 train cross the bridge over Lower Addiscombe Road and that was on the way home from school in 1981/2. Used to walk past Addiscombe station too; never saw a train arrive/depart from there either - only rafts of 4 epb's parked up...
Ernest Marples - nothing ceases to amaze me about him!
Sir, you have outdone yourself again!
Bravo sir, bravo!
I always enjoy the opening scene of Tony Hancock,s film " The Rebel " filmed on Bingham Road station.
I regard the Croydon Trams taking over old rail trackways, as revenge against the Beeching Report.
The actual justification for Tramlilnk was to make better use of 2 underused lines plus provide rail access to New Addington (which was a deprived area)
@@PStaveley And given the way things work in this country, it was probably the deprived area element which finally got the funding approved.
The Ivanhoe Line in Leicestershire and the Robin Hood line in Nottinghamshire & Derbyshire also got funded on the basis of deprived areas after the destruction of the mining industry.
The RHL kept its funding for political reasons which are still too divisive to go into here, but the Ivanhoe line was defunded in the run up to BR privatisation once the initial part (reopening stations on the Midland Main Line between Leicester and Loughborough) had been confirmed. The section through the coal-mining area between Leicester and Burton has just been refunded as a sop to the East Midlands for the loss of HS2 (using moneys taken from the defunding of the northern leg of HS2 just to add a little bit more divide and conquer to the whole saga).
Definition of a halt…I’ll stop and think about that
Great video as usual, that is perhaps the highest compliment you’ve ever given us viewers.. “You’re the new railway proposal to my abandoned line.” Awww ty you too!
And Hey Presto you found a use for that shot of Boxhill! Don't know where your footage at 8:00 was taken, but the view of the two TV masts was "lump in the throat from my childhood" time....
Bingham Road looks like it could be a good name for a stop if you are doing a model of a tramway system
20 years ago, I was living very close to Spencer Road, and the footbridge still existed. Around that time, they found a cadaver on the overgrown trackbed that had been there for decades. Anything south of Coombe Road was ignored.
After watching your In-depth videos, I feel like taking up train spotting. Nice job 👍
The Wiki article on Ernest Marples is very interesting, especially the naughty bits.
He puts Charles Tyson Yerkes in the shade!
It’s interesting that you mention Tony Hancock.
Ian Hislop in his excellent 2008 documentary “Ian Hislop Goes Off the Rails” shows that Hancock was hired by BR to help the public accept the Beeching cuts. It’s available on CZcams. Hislop also said that Beeching’s local station was also saved.
Southern Heights! Video? Yes please. I’ve heard of the Northern Heights many times on this channel but never thought “Northern” meant there was a “Southern”. Sorry Jago that you’ve got such a dense subscriber.
Well I thought I knew the local railway history fairly well, but the Southern Heights proposal was a completely new one to me. The Southern Railway was in expansionist mood at the time - the Wimbledon to Sutton line being an example.
Never really paid that in mind when I was last there during a period I was having counselling, watching this nowadays, never really knew there WAS a station there
I never knew this and I go through that Tramstop several times each week. Shall go an take a look.
I forever associate Tony Hancock with Railway Cuttings, East Cheam.
That was really engaging, thank you Jago!
Thankyou Jago, that was fascinating, even though i vaguely knew the history of this line
I remember stripping out the signalling from the line for reuse by the Mid Hants. It was quite a strange experience there was remarkably little vandalism you half expected a train to appear and I remember walking along the embankments looking down at the back gardens. The tunnels were interesting.
Ernest Marples was MP for Wallasey from 1945 to 1974, so he wasn't exactly local !
Southern Heights proposal threads its way through some of the most hilly parts of the North Downs - the construction challenges alone would've doomed it before we even look at potential ridership \m/
I'm old enough to remember Marples. The conflict of interest over motorway construction you mention was the least of his dodginess and the most boring bit. He somehow managed to avoid fatal entanglement in the Profumo affair, but more recent research has established that the rumours flying around at the time were true, and has even added some lurid detail. Never mind, being 17 or 18 at the time, I asserted they were all true anyway. It's nice to be proved right about 60 years later, even though I was just busking with political animus but no solid evidence. I wasn't the only person doing that, of course, but others did mostly remember to insert or say "alleged" and they'll mostly be dead now.
Then there was Maudling ... but that's probably enough of corrupt politicians. Nothing now is new, see, and if anyone tells you there was some golden age of political rectitude and competence in the past they're fantasists.
The difference is that historically it was accepted that politicians would line their own pockets, whereas nowadays we have some fantasy that they're all there only to serve the public despite the huge amounts of evidence that all too many of them are possibly even more corrupt than those politicians of an earlier era were.
Another great vid, thank you. I would be very pleased to see a dedicated one on the Sanderstead-Orpington line.
Did you know there was another station called Bingham Road? It was on the Great Northern/London & North Western Joint line from Nottingham to Melton Mowbray.
...and was actually somewhere vaguely near Bingham, which still has a station on the GN Nottingham - Grantham line.
In the days of roller blinds, out of service East Midlands trains could quite often be seen displaying the destination Bingham as a way of honouring a colleague who'd died suddenly.
Once again Jago you fill my Sunday afternoon with educational comtent and wittiness. ❤
Another great on track video thanks Jago
It’s amazing how easily things can be erased from existence.
Another excellent video. Did you mean Norwood Junction (rather than Norbury Junction)?
The trackbed from Selsdon Road up to almost where the tram deviates from the railway route and shoots off East to Addington is still there. There are a few bridges and two footbridges have been kept intact. The track itself is still there and the bridges have those "If you see anyone striking this bridge..." sign just in case you might have blocked the line over and above all the shrubs. I can't help wondering if there is a file somewhere that says one day this line could be put to use again.
Always glad when useless lines are recycled into something useful! Excellently told, by the way!
One tiny elephant in the room I have not seen (even) you mention, but which has lingered in a dusty corner of my mind's attic for donkey's years, is exactly why nobody, but nobody, ever seems to have associated the Sanderstead line with the Oxted line and the lines for East Grinstead, Uckfield, and back in the day even Tunbridge Wells, Lewes, and Hailsham that fanned out from it. I mean, if you just *looked* at the map without any knowledge of its history (imagine it being labeled in Chinese or Arabic or something) it just jumps out at you (or at least it does at me) that it would be a very handy way for trains from as far away as New Haven or Eastbourne (cuckoo!) to avoid the congestion of East Croydon (you do mention in the video that East Croydon was congested, and presumably it still is). I admit it may just be because I did not have the dubious benefit of knowing the line's history, but to be honest I am as baffled as ever at this universal blind spot 🙃
Fascinating, a great video Jago, thanks! Amazing to think that the embankment was removed, must have been very expensive.
8:35 Ernest Marples also put through The Transport Act 1962, which made it a lot easier to close rail lines in Britain. Except those in his own electorate, of course!
Marples also got caught in the net of Lord Denning's 1963 investigation into the security aspects of the Profumo affair; Marples was (also) found to avail himself of the services of Prostitutes. That finding was suppressed (in true Establishment tradition) until 2020 by investigative journalist Tom Mangold. Read all about it in Marples bio: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernest_Marples
Refreshing to see a video on Trams.
P.S. I saw Jago in a video and his comic timing is exemplary.
Ooh which one?
@@CarolineFord1 Jago mentioned it on his 200k subscriber video.
@@CarolineFord1 Type ‘Jago Hazzard. Harry Beck’ in the search bar
@@nutsnproud6932 ah you mean the Jay Foreman one?
Sundays with the best CZcamsr 😊😊😊😊😊😊
Ta!
@@JagoHazzardwell done on all your videos 👍
Bring back Bingham. It’s a fine name!
Vehicles were always getting stuck under the bridge in Lower Addiscombe Road.
Yes I always enjoy your vids Jago 🙂🚂🚂🚂
Another great Video. The story of Railways in South London could take up many Videos.
I'd be interested in learning more about the proposed line from Sanderstead to Orpington, since I used to live in Orpington.
I wonder what the little hut with green doors and gable ends is.There is now a power transformer in it's "front yard" but it already was there in the photo of the railway viaduct - and it doesn't look like a building associated with the electric grid.
I suspect even British Rail had no idea what British Rail was thinking either. Some of their decisions defy all logic and reason.
You have to remember that British Rail was umpteen different departments, regions and organisations operating under one banner and only vaguely working under the control of the BR Board.
Just because one bit of BR wanted something to happen doesn't mean that other bits were even aware of it let alone agreed with it!
I used to walk to school that way (1982 - 1984) - I don't remember this line at all.
Great video Jago
Great video topic.
A video that also includes an abandoned Waitrose (the one near East Croydon station),
I believe Selsdon Road station was the last station in London to still be using gas lighting when it closed
I would love you to do a vid on London station public conveniences, only so I could hear you say at the end, 'You are the toilet roll to my hour of need" ! PLEASE!
Marples is a standard issue of his political hue with the “I’m alright Jack” attitude. Slashing railways everywhere else, and trying to save the ones that affect his electorate. It’s a story as old as democracy itself.
Lenghtening the platforms could have been a way to increase the operating costs of the station and the line, making an even stronger case for closure. I know we did that in Belgium, e.g. a few stations on I think line 106 or 107 got brand-new stations and signal boxes just a few years before they finally closed, somewhere in the 90s.
It’s not unknown in the UK to do underhand tactics too. Often we’ll make a service so unusable, that passengers leave and we can then claim that “nobody uses it”. Recently, our national rail operator in Scotland tried to slash their timetable based on passenger figures coming out of the pandemic. But oddly, as they were claiming that nobody commutes anymore, it was evening and weekend services they were trying to cut. Completely false logic. Thankfully, their consultation had a huge response (including a few pages from myself), and most of the proposed changes were scrapped.
Also, as an anecdote… I work in railway infrastructure, and it’s a running joke that when the company turns up to refurbish your building, it means it’s about to be demolished. Can’t have it going without a fresh coat of paint. A building I worked in had several hundred thousand pounds spent on high security features (turning it from an anonymous brick building to something people might suddenly be interested in), three years before it closed.
Col Stephens & Light Railways? I'd be pushed to name a more iconic duo...
If Wendy James and Transvision Vamp had sung about this station they could have sung,"Bingham Road ain't dead it's just asleep 🎵🎶!"
It’s interesting how they turned a railway line into a tramline.
Addiscombe tram stop is nearer what people from the area would recognise as the centre of the community of Addiscombe than the location of the Addiscombe railway station, so progress?
Indeed. The old Addiscombe station was originally Addiscombe Road, and then the Road got dropped. So it was a bit of a misnomer!
But surely it was on LOWER Addiscombe Road?
Have you had a look at the remains of the abandoned curve of track from Kent House down to the BKJ to Crystal Palace line (now Southern + tram link)?
Not yet!
That curve is interesting because it was built due to politics around running trains into Crystal Palace High Level. The southern end end of the curve with Beckenham Road Tram Stop is also the site of another closed station on the Tramlink network, called Penge. But that station only lasted about two years (from 1858 to 1860), and there's no remains of it today.
And there's a really good pub around the corner!
4:28 London’s first mountain railway!
I had to pause for a serious giggle at 4:10. :D
Another Tale from the Trams!
I assume that short clip of Boxhill referenced in the Q&A will be making a cameo in all future videos now?
Probably. Well, I have to justify the train fare to York somehow…
@@JagoHazzard as a native of York who lives in London I feel your pain
I don’t remember hearing about colonel stevens before. There seems like there is a video or two that could be made about him.
The trams didn't succeed because they were a happy medium between buses and trains but because they went somewhere people wanted to go - Croydon town centre - rather than between two suburbs that didn't really need a rail link.
It would be interesting to know how much of the original alignment has been used - has the entire length been dropped a couple of metres, does the track dip down to street level from high level a few miles away, or does it merge onto the old alignment (so potentially leaving evidence at one or both ends of the original level)?
Excellent Video Jago! However, wasn’t Ernest “conflict of interest? never met her” Marples an MP in Merseyside and not London?
@10:54, the van driver is clearly in a hurry to almost get injured or killed.
Red lights don't apply to White Van Men, who have the right of way over all other traffic and self-granted authorisation to ignore all road traffic law.
Earnest Marples: Closures for thee, but not for me.
TIL There was a SOUTHERN Heights project? Would definitely love a video on this.
Having been along the tram line a few times I never realised there was an embankment and "high level" station. And bits of it are still there. For now. Do you happen to know if there are plans afoot to add to the tram system?
There were, but there’s no money for it.
Difficult to imagine an embankment and the gradients required to climb them to get to a high level station. There are loads of photos on the Disused Stations website which demonstrate.
@@grahamrowntree5573 Yes. first thing I did after watching Jago's piece.