Ep184: The Vajra Path - Dr Nida Chenagtsang & Dr Ian A Baker
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- čas přidán 13. 06. 2024
- In this episode I host a dialogue between doctor of Tibetan Medicine and Buddhist spiritual teacher Dr Nida Chenagtsang and Dr Ian A. Baker, author, scholar, and initiate of Buddhist, Taoist, and Hindu Tantric lineages.
Drs Nida and Ian explore the theme of Vajrayana in the 21st century, including issues such as tradition and innovation, mass empowerments vs 1-1 discipleship, and what is essential for successful practice.
Drs Nida and Ian discuss common mistakes in practicing the 6 Yogas of Naropa, religious syncretism, and dark triad traits of narcissism, psychopathy, and machiavellianism in spiritual teachers.
Drs Nida and Ian also discuss the role of religious institutions in the history of Vajrayana and explore the tensions between the critical historical approach of academia with traditional views often held by religious teachers and practicing Buddhists.
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www.guruviking.com/podcast/ep...
Also available on CZcams, iTunes, & Spotify - search ‘Guru Viking Podcast’.
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Topics include:
00:00 - Intro
01:05 - The Vajra Path
03:42 - Tradition and innovation
08:25 - Mass empowerments
10:24 - 84 Mahasiddhas and individualised practice
13:14 - Vajrayana is experiential
14:52 - Correcting misunderstandings
16:53 - What is essential for Vajrayana to be effective?
19:11 - The role of empowerment
21:00 - Listen, study, meditate
23:19 - The power of place
25:03 - Discerning effective methods for contemporary audiences
28:23 - Secrecy and education
32:18 - How much practice is needed for Varjayana?
36:30 - Struggles with dream yoga and tummo
40:14 - Working with your talents
42:34 - 6 Yogas study mistakes
44:05 - Misguided attitudes to ngondro, preliminary practices
47:06 - Spiritual cocktails and narcissism
49:02 - How to relate to other traditions
50:49 - Syncretism the critical historical perspective
54:51 - Fundamental values
58:12 - Dark triad traits in spiritual practitioners and teachers
01:02:12 - Vajrayana and institutions
01:03:35 - Distilling the essence or taking out of context?
01:05:00 - Dr Nida’s vision of Vajrayana institutions
01:06:38 - Cultural trappings vs the essence of Buddhism
01:12:49 - Dr Ian on religious institutions and the evolution of Vajrayana
01:16:41 - Essence of Vajrayana
01:20:45 - Who does Vajrayana belong to?
01:22:25 - Critical historical vs traditional perspectives
01:26:39 - Dr Nida reflects on the power of simplicity
01:30:09 - Friendship and collaboration
01:31:33 - Hijacking of Buddhism
01:34:47 - Deelaboration and the beautiful adventure
01:36:40 - Future trips, courses, and activities
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Previous episodes with Dr Nida Chenagtsang:
- www.guruviking.com/search?q=nida
Previous episodes with Dr Ian A. Baker:
- www.guruviking.com/search?q=b...
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To find out more about The Vajra Path, visit:
- profile.php?...
- / thevajrapath
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For more interviews, videos, and more visit:
- www.guruviking.com/
Music 'Deva Dasi' by Steve James - Zábava
This sesion was a blessing to humanity. Most spiritual teachings changed heir students for their own goodness and the society. Spiritualy has been the direct way to convince us of our true nature the self. The digital Era has transform the world into a household. I have no doubt that the benefits can bring healing to humans & nature. When spiritualy teaches love the greatest gift not only the aspirants change but every were they go that energy vibrates. Both the Dr's who shared their work are examples what healing energy can do. Thank you for sharing the ancient secrets how wonderful human beings and spirit are one. Keep up the good work.
I wish someone someday will start interviewing some of the notable people on the Vajrayana circuit in a no-holds-barred way, asking the hard questions. I'm not sure it's going to be Steve, because he is way too nice and respectful to play that role.
There was a moment in the interview where Dr Ian Baker mentioned dangers involved with the practice. That was a potential opening towards exploration, but it went by.
When you hear the familiar warm-and-fuzzy sound bites about the dangers of "narcissism" and how you need to develop loving kindness through the preliminaries, you know there is a problem in the Vajra kingdom.
Here's a hot take: You can't develop genuine loving kindness by imagining it. Another one: The way most Vajrayana teachers talk about the psyche and the various "dangers" that the practitioner may be faced with is incredibly simplistic. The "dangers" that are being discussed are largely straw men. The actual dangers are elsewhere and are not being discussed, because the tradition has not developed a way, yet, to talk about things like pre-verbal trauma, attachment disturbances, unrecognized psychological imprinting or the impossibility to leap over your own shadow and what to do about it.
These are major falling down spots for someone who wants to invite shunyata into their life through the practices of tantra, Dzogchen or mahamudra, and if the teachers of the tradition will not do something to address the issue, I'm afraid the tradition is going to slide into less and less relevance, one pilgrimage to Bhutan at a time. Speaking as someone who loves the tradition, it makes me sad.
Fair and very important point. But I'm asking myself If the majority people searching for these teachings in the west have themselves an openness for these actual dangers? Isn't society at large saturated be evasion of trauma and trauma based survival strategies? How do we expect teachers and teachings to come into prominence, that are able to deal with these things, when most people are not interested in them?
And why do we look to Tibetans - that had deal with a lots of trauma themselves - to have answers we don't have. Yes, there are the unique accomplished teachers among them, that show us that we can trust the Dharma. But these are very few. And historically they might have always been. There are as many people using spirituality to bypass psychological trauma in the tibetan community as there are in the western community.
I think when we have the openness to look at these things and to integrate them into the Dharma, it will help the Dharma to blossom in the West. As it once did in Tibet.
They also had to discern culture from teachings and put them into practice. And it was a hard an ardous process. Look at figures like Marpa. I'm think Lama Glenn Mullin was right in his interview with Steve, when he said, that this is the task at hand right now. And it won't be a short process. And it for sure won't be easy - since we are not only dealing with the transfere from one culture to another but with an emerging global culture on the verge of a collective crisis. We are right at the beginning. And I think, that when we trust in the Dharma to possibility for transformation will also come.
theres no vajrayana if one doesnt have real shamata and real empowerment. if someone has shamata they have long since passed the point of psychological trauma.
@@5piles Thats an interesting point that would need some serious investigation. When one has mastered shamata to a certain higher degree this might be the case. But for the average practitioner - I'm not so sure about that. Shamata can fit right into the evasive survival strategies that come with trauma. Especially if a person adopts his/her whole lifestyle to intensive practice. I think these things can hide in meditation since there are no triggers present and the technique encourages evasive tendencies to a certain degree. But unfortunately that can be true for a lot of spiritual practices.
Note that I'm not talking about PTSD and the overly manifest examples of trauma, where the person might have a hard time to even engage in these practices. I'm talking more about the meachanism of "everyday trauma" and especially unprocessesd adverse childhood experiences that we are just starting to understand properly and take serious. These things have a very serious impact on how we perceive everyday reality and engage with it. Spiritual practice is not save from that.
And of course there is also transgenerational trauma that shapes the behaviour of whole groups of people and might be an even bigger issue. I'm quite sure that transgenerational trauma played a very big part in those communities that have been exposed for their history of misconduct in the recent years.
It's also interesting that you don't mention vipashyana and lojong training, which are also a vital part of Vajrayana.
@@AD-rz7sg for someone with trauma they will have to encounter it it face to face on the way to progressing to shamata. even those without particular trauma but simply due to being part of hedonistic consumer culture it is very typical for a practitioner to trigger a complete lack of self worth, and to surmise that this by itself is sufficient proof that they cannot possibly progress into something as exalted as perfect samadhi. vast majority of ppl today will encounter some version of this or similar should they make real effort and progress eg. stage 5 of shamata.
however upon shamata or more specifically just before, all trauma evaporates since it no longer has a foundation to gather on. rather than doing any evasion, a perfectly settled mind effortlessly discriminates between all the newly collected experiences collected in this life and the parts of the mind that were already present prior to this beginning. one easily discriminates the faults of placing importance to the newly collected data of this life as being unique or significant since ones perspective has greatly broadened. the habits of strong trauma and addiction simply disperse to due being irrelevant and minor. there is also the support of being sustained by the 5 dhyana factors which raises the minds beyond the needs of sense objects, etc. yes, this needs "further investigation"
as for vipashyana there is no need to mention it since it is shamata on steroids. not only are old habits annihilated from their root but in the right environment and with access to real teachers one quickly develops nothing but extremely good habits adhering to reality, namely the discovery that imputedly knowable objects exist whereas prior to real vipashyana a mind can only ever can see self-sufficiently knowable objects even if they are imputed. the latter condition is that from which all mental afflictions grow. and its stopping is nirvana. see dr berzin imputedly knowable.
Where do You recommend to go for deepening on the topics you're pointing? Thank you :)
What a refreshing conversation! You both are so open and honest, it was a pleasure listening to you. By the way, I am doing the Five Wisdom Dakinis online, retreat with The Vajra Path, can't wait! I am also an organic potato, smile. Thank you, Steve this was a great interview!!
Exclusive super dialogue to purify mindset and benefit to us all 💖🙏🙏🙏
I am potato too 🙏❤️🙏
Sensational - a perfect combination. Thankyou for bringing this to CZcams
Guru Viking this was a great dialogue. I'm impressed with your questions!
That was such a good investment of my time, highly appreciated 💎💎💎
I am a student of Dr. Nida Chenagstang, and a long time admirer of Ian Baker, so for the two of them collaborating on the Vajra Path is euphoric for me.
Guru Viking I spotted you in one Genlas classes Lorraine MacBeth
Beautiful episode! Thank you Dr. Nida, Dr. Baker and Steve 🙏
Huge thank you for this excellent interview with such fabulous duo - very reassuring for us who want to navigate the complex world of vajrayana and its place in today's world.
The ability you have to allow people to open up and discuss things which they love. Which is shown by length of response. The length and depth of question, is also a bit greater during this talk.
Thank you 🙏🏻 🙇♂️
Diamond Way Buddhism is a great example of Vajrayana Lay Communities, Hundreds of local Residential Centers and Retreat Centers largely operating on their own but within a network with the same mission. Seems to work well, lots of Stupas being built and the Karmapa is happy with the work. @GuruViking you should go to the Europe Center summer course and get empowerments and visit. Its an amazing space, and power field. Their were 7k there for the Stupa ceremony and empowerments with the Karmapa last year.
Thank you Dr Nida la and Dr Baker la 🙏🙏🙏
How is the effectiveness of Vajrayana evaluated?
The goal of Vajrayana is to attain Buddahood in this lifetime. That has always been its goal and its promise. So the obvious question to ask here is, have Dr Baker and Dr Nida attained Buddhahood by practicing Vajrayana?
It's ok if the answer is no but if we are being honest we have to start asking the tough questions. Does this path actually work in its traditional form? If so, where are the mahasiddhas? If Dr Baker is not a mahasiddha, how is he able to judge what is effective or not? Same for Dr Nida? If they haven't attained Buddhahood, have they attained something? There are stages of the path, so what stages have they attained? They must know where they are and how far is left to go, don't you think? Otherwise how can they teach the path and even further, make adjustments to it?
To me these are obvious questions but it seems noone wants to talk about them honestly.
They just have more access and therefore experience, therefore they have natural drive to engage in sharing or teaching, and they do have permission from more experienced or the lineage holders. No body is enlightened, its just a common goal a common path. I see that if someone is opened/honest in vajrayana them two they certainly are. It will be more in the future, stay tuned if you care.
I agree with this observation. I spent some years with and as Vajrayana practitioners, and did not observe fully liberated ones. Some profound experiences to be sure but I can’t claim I was inspired to continue. I wonder if the method became simpler….detached from the Tibetan forms …the method could be more effective.
In Buddhism teachers don't need to be fully accomplished in order to teach. We have the Sutras, Tantras and Teachings that are the authority in these things. If only Mahasiddhas were able to teach and inspire people, you wouldn't have a lot of students. And how many people would be able to take teachings from a Mahasiddha?
I think people are overly foucused on practices like tummo, being a Siddha, Buddhahood etc. Big concepts, mostly taken out of context and stylized as if they were some commodity somebody can "own", , wear like a badge or use for personal gain. (I don't suggest that it is what you are saying. I just take your statement as exemplary for a lot of thing you can read nowadays.)
You don't have to compete in the Olympics to have positive results from a sporty lifestyle. The same is true for the Dharma. These things were always the accomplishment of a small elite and most practitioners were building karma to once achieve those things: For the benefits of other. Thats the crucial point.
What about becoming a more loving human being with a good heart? Being able to deal with all the pain in the world? Benefitting other beings by extending our friendliness to them? Being patient with our own shortcomings and with the shortcomings of others? Facing death, sickness and tradgedy with calm, trust and confidence? These are the sprouts of Dharma that can eventually blossom into all those things mentioned. And that is the standard for evaluation of succesful Dharma practice. You can meet plenty of people that have "attainded" that through their dharma-practices and helped others "attain" it.
As Dr. Nida says in the interview. Loving-KIndness is the basis. When Loving-Kindness gave birth to the Buddhas of the past it will for sure give birth to the Buddhas of the future, when practitioners - east and west - are willing to engage with these core principles. The Dharma is young in the West. According to some teachers, not focusing on these essentials was the reason for the downfall of the Dharma in the west. How can we expect it to take foot here, when we are neglecting these things right from the start?
If they said they were Mahasiddhas would you believe them? How would you know if you aren't a Mahasiddha yourself?
the goal is not buddhahood in 1 lifetime. that only occurs for the sharpest practitioners. for ppl who are mindless followers with small mental faculty you can refer to the display of thukdam that is shown a handful of times each generation, the last being in taipei 2020, which was also the first time it was able to be under full scientific monitoring and measurement. the practitioner entered clinical death and continued their practice for 30 days afterward without any body decomposition, continuously generating heat around the heart area, production of sweet smell from the skin, spontaneous brain signals firing, etcetc. most thukdam lasts a few days, rarely a week or 2, very rare longer than this.
very GOOD!!!!!!!!!
Brilliant !!!! Thanks !
@Guru Viking thanks for your channel, i have been following you for quite a bit, and watch considerable amount of your videos. I am from Bhutan and has lived in 3 continents. I would sincerely request you to interview Dzongsar Jamyang Khyentse Rinpoche. I hope it really happens one day. You are a doing a lot by inviting these greats thinkers, scholars and practitioners. It is Kickstarting a process for Vajrayana to become accessible and intelligible for everyone in this contemporary age, those sincere and lost in the complexities of this field at least. Thanks GV.
Roots of vajrayana. Fascinating.
be here now do no harm help others be still close eyes listen to your breathing.
Nida sounds angry about the possibility of Dzogchen without the Tibetan Buddhist entrapments. So much so that I couldn't make sense of what he was trying to say. Wish they would have talked more about their upcoming talk on Eros Ecstasy and Elixirs, that sounds really interesting.
❤❤❤
Wonderful conversation, thank you Steve.
It is the initiation process that became/is exploitative. The translators have worked tirelessly to make the real teachings available and, these are available for free. Masters are still available in Asia for free. True master-disciple relationships do not rely on money.
thank you for always beautiful episodes . just wondering, why is Dr Ian always on his phone during most of his interviews?
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yaay🎊🎊🎊
Can you ask academics in the future why their entire approach isn't against what their purporting to study? "Study" would mean gaining direct experience the way a tradition prescribes it - not meaning to have mental activity about direct experiences one hasn't yet had - right?
Jay Matsyandra Nath
Anyone know which - if any - of Ian Baker's teachers requested that Ian teach? There's nothing about this on his website. What set me looking was his repeated claims here and elsewhere that there is a disconnect between between the teaching of dukkha and the Vajrayana.
H.H. Dalai Lama I Heard he once mentioned.
@@marioalejandrosandovalcarr4499 for clarity, the issue in question here is being recognized by your teacher as being ready to teach. Merely having the Dalai Lama write a forward to a book and facilitate research on the Secret Temple is not at all the same thing. For a point of comparison, the Dalai Lama himself regards jettisoning karma as to no longer be Buddhist, as per his comments to Stephen Batchelor re. 'Buddhism Without Beliefs' etc. To suggest that the teaching of dukkha is at odds with the Vajrayana looks to me as being no less fundamental a departure from Buddhism in general and specifically from Vajrayana. Recognizing dukkha is pivotal to realizing not-self, as per eg the Anattalakkhana Sutta, and dukkha is no less pivotal to dependent origination, emptiness, the two truths, coemergent wisdom / coemergent ignorance - really it runs from the foundation to the heights of Buddhist views. I'd certainly be interested to see how HH the Dalai Lama or other esteemed teachers - lay or monastic - react to the suggestion dukkha is extraneous to the Vajrayana.
Dear Brother viking, in some weeks I'll be flying to Thailand to ordain for yet unknown time in the theravada tradition. I choosen this for now because I've been informed that Mahajana and Vajrayana must be made as a commitment for life if ordained at a monastery... is this true..? or are there ways someone could ordain lets say for some years and dedicate oneself without being stuck with it for life in a monastery setting. I ask because I feel I resonate with Vajrayana and would love to get truly involved...
Thankyou, with Love
Jaap
With the help of an qualified meditation teacher it is very possible to practice mahayana & vajrajana Buddhism as a lay practitioner. These paths are a little Swifter; especially if you are already drawn to them.
@@mvp5096 Thankyou, this was already quite known though.
I've heard from people who went to a japanese zen monastery that alltough they have plenty of ceremonies and rituals, if you leave or have to go its really not even a point. If youve accumulated two years in a monastery all of a sudden you will have a ceremony that ordains you as a monk. if you spent a thousand nights total they will without much announcement ordain you a priest. tough training there I heard. Best of luck.
@@evertjk532 thanks brother
I just thought, maybe James Bae is interesting also.
What about Fabio Andrico?
When you go to Greece, be sure to participate in the Divine Liturgy at true monasteries. The Mysteries are still Alive.
Now it is good karma for the wisdom as dr. Chenag mentioned, but the traditional approach or adopted versions by first gen of westerners will not do the trick for most interested. How many practitioners in the west? Yeah not many, even it seems there are. What is the reason for that? Teachers didn't hit The note? And, why so many misunderstandings about vajrayana? In the end is it Not a good karma for the wisdom teachings?
dr nida is on point with everything and its great to hear that he think very balanced which really is best for now, also that everything has to be to adapted and not to fixed and static. Einstein wasnt smart at all, he stole his teachings from his french college and hundreds of other scientists tried to expose him but sure because he has "the choosen" background you will never hear anything negative about him, also not from his racist hate in his diaries, besides that time is not a force only an observation so "his" theory is nonsense anyway.
So many Buddhist teachers these days want to criticise and profit from students. But they should also look with in themselves and ask why such high monetary fees are charged for transmission of their own lineage initiation, translated by others, when they made no effort to care ethically for the student either. In the past their service was provided with no fees directly enriching the master teachers, students lived in monasteries for free, and proper exchanges were worked out. Nowadays there is great hypocrisy and corruption, while the original material actually remains free of charge for genuine students to find and learn from. Genuine master teachers do not offer their services through a business model.
Steve, contrary to what some commenters say down here, you do a great job (as always) here. Needa say that both you and Ian skillfully but subtly balance and tease out the negative undercurrents and passive aggressiveness of the authentic dirty potato, who begins the talk, in various places, throwing sideways daggers so vague and unhelpful that they land more on the side of diffuse gossip than useful commentary, before you get him to say what he seemed to want to say from the get-go, about some white guys who perhaps can see the forest for the trees. For example, he should have given more substance to his comments about psychopaths, Machiavelli and dark triangles (and contrast that with skillful wrathfulness perhaps) and poisonous cocktail makers (vs "authentic" syncretism and maybe how the Tibetan mixology came to be) rather than just letting seep unbalanced energy winds into the virtual air. He comes off a bit more defensive than insightful here (for example, defending the loss of vegetarianism when Buddhism went to the Himalayas, but saying nothing about now, as the teachings have poured out to the diaspora; like to Italy, for example, where there is plenty). But Ian mopped up after him sufficiently,as you did as well with your follow-up questions and addenda. And even with all that being said, in its entirety, a great talk by all three. Thank you.
Secrecy? What about the fact the Vajrayana of Tibet is also thoroughly active in original form among the Newar householders of Nepal? Why is this fact omitted over and over again? These people still provide Tibetan monks their sacred, ritual objects. They hold the non-monastic tradition, the original tantra that priests could not perform until they removed their robes. Let’s be honest, really, and not leave out the most beneficent information.
I doubt if this type of stuff is very useful at all for achieving enlightenment. Sounds like a lot of ego games to me.
Until you dissolve your perception of self and other into unconditioned awareness everything is an ego game.
@@saulnine7786 Some ego games lead to the end of suffering; others increase suffering.
they really dont understand nor answer the questions very well