Prize Card Manipulation: Explaining Every BANNED Card in the Pokémon TCG’s Expanded Format Episode 3
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- čas přidán 12. 07. 2024
- The Pokémon TCG’s Expanded format has had a varied reputation from facilitating exciting and unique interactions to downright degeneracy. Occasionally, the Pokémon Company was forced to step in and ban cards to prevent overpowered or game-breaking decks from flooding the competitive environment. This is the third installment in our series covering the history of every banned card in the Expanded format. In today's video we’ll focus on cards that allow you to manipulate your opponent’s prize cards and the powerful comeback cards that could be taken advantage of in ways they were never intended as a result.
Script by Jake
Edited by Lily
The List
Intro: (0:00)
Island Challenge Amulet: (0:20)
Mismagius: (4:25)
Lt. Surge's Strategy: (5:15)
Chip-Chip Ice Axe: (5:45)
Reset Stamp: (8:24)
Milotic: (8:48)
#pokemon #pokemontcg
I find it funny “GG End” is the name of the attack and the win condition; if your opponent has no Pokemon on the field, they lose.
I love the concept of this deck if, for nothing else, stretches the uses of the cards to the extremes.
It also began the push for players to just *COMPLETELY* break the Expanded format.
Cosmic Eclipse was quite a turning point for Expanded. The tag teams (mons and trainers), poké doll stall, amulet... one of the big impacts in Expanded at the time was Ultra Necrozma. Single prize, ready with a single Double Dragon Energy, hits like a truck and discards energies. Give Garbodor a float stone and you have that ridiculous attacker, while also disrupting the opponent's abilities. That deck felt like it was everywhere on PTCGO at the time, though I can't complain - my ADP/Medicham deck would eat them for breakfast.
Also I loved how Misty & Lorelei Tag Team, a card designed to help Water GX decks, could be used to take many turns in a row in a deck without a single Water GX in it.
Btw Milotic also changed how the Pokemon tcg names his effects, instead of saying GX, EX, V, etc now it only says "Cards with rule box" to future proof them (no idea why they didn't made that before)
I guess it's a trial and error sort of deal. Happens in every card game that lives long enough. Once your card pool becomes so large, you can't possibly account for all of them, you're bound to print a mistake sooner or later, then you learn from that mistake and learn to future proof your next sets of cards to prevent it from happening again.
The TCG seems not to have done much inter-generational planning until the sixth or seventh generation.
Exactly. Like cards which say Your opponent cannot Activate effects of their fusion Synchro ritual or Xyz monsters.
Like -Links! You’re forgetting links!
It’s clear the effect of milotic was only supposed to apply to basic Pokémon. Applying it to something even stronger than EX is following the letter of the law while ignoring the spirit of the law. Legal. But not lawful behavior.
All cards that reference rule box pokemon of any type should be updated to use the new language. I'm surprised it hasn't happened yet.
@@Joker22593 I was really surprised when in Sword and Shield they didn't errated Scoop-Up net so that it won't work with Pokémon EX. And now we are getting 300+HP Pokémon EX!! The net will have to be instantly banned from Expanded or errated
dude is absolutely CHURNING out fantastic content, he's unstoppable
And in how many channels now? 5?
@@dr.balance3377 I only know of this channel and TheDuelLogs, I'm pretty new to this guy's content, what other channels does he have?
@@gallae He's got one for Magic The Gathering as well called TheManaLogs. That's the only other one I know of.
@@gallae TheD&DLogs and TheTavernLogs (Hearthstone) as well
@@Xylarxcode oh sick maybe i can finally learn magic
One of my first tournament experiences, I made a misplay on my first turn and it resulted in a prize penalty. I then got to play Twins on my first turn, because I was behind on prizes. I ended up winning the game and felt really bad at it, it didn’t really seem fair lol
The rules were changed during the 2016-2017 because of that exact issue. Now, your opponent doesn't take prize cards when you're issued a prize penalty, they now just win the game when they have one or two prize cards left (depending on the penalty).
@@jakegearhart That's an interesting rule.
What people don't realize is while it's a cool concept. It's not a fun deck to play against, because it outright stops you from playing. It's a similar deal with Uxie/Sabledonk decks that came nearly ten years prior. Where your opponent would take a 10-15 minute turn playing solitaire. By using spam trainer cards to deck themselves out. In an attempt to clear 2, 3 and sometimes 4 Pokémon from your field.
Hearing the official reasonings behind bans is surprisingly refreshing.
*this video randomly popped into my feed
Wait I've heard this voice tone before....
*Looks at channel name
Aaaah I seee
I've noticed the Pokemon Company has decided to future proof and use language like "any Pokemon with a Rule Box" to cover present and future variations of Pokemon EX.
never once played pokemon tcg but as a fan of your yugioh stuff i got hooked in right away, you do such a good job at making anything enjoyable content
Dude I just gotta say. Awesome work! You're doing a great job! I saw one of your videos in my recommended and I love the formating and style as well as the substance. Can't wait to see what's to come! Would love to see what some of your favorite decks and archetypes are and some of your history with the game. Keep on keeping on!
I remember when you thought chip chip ice axe was bad
Maybe it's a good thing Pokemon has a set rotation, because everything is so freaking searchable.
But then I really don't get why powercreep is so strong each new set, they could totally lower the power on a new release set at start of a new Standard season decrease HP and attack power no?
So far the trend is leaning towards lower max HP with the introduction of VSTARS since Brilliant Stars. VSTARS have less max HP than VMAXES
they could, and they used to, in the first 10 years or so the hp and attack only went up by a bit, then the EX era came with the 1st real powercreep, and the powercreep was kept in check again for the initial GX era, until tag teams came. if anything the huge hp Vmaxes were a way to slow down the game, as even with less hp tag team gxs being basics that frequently could attack t1 going second for 150+ damage they were rather broken.
although ptcgi never gave a reason to stop power creep, the community has their theories, 1st is that with the sets that accelerated the powercreep all have a increased number of ultra rares and secret rares, so it's a way to market those
2nd, is that even if things rotate they still last 2-3 years on standard, the best deck in the standard was pretty much arceus dialga and palkia GX until it rotated, so only good cards could compete, and people wouldn't buy bad cards for that
They could and look to being doing that with the Scarlet and Violet Era, can't say for sure until we see more of the new cards.
The reason it has power creep is basically they go from ex with reasonable HP, then GX with mostly evolved so needed a reason to get people to buy those first few sets, as the rotation isn't at the start of the new set but includes about a year or two of the last generation sets, meaning if they made them to week they wouldn't sale.
You confound this with how they make a few extremely good cards for the Era's last hurrah, leading to them having to Increase the power by a larger margin then thought.
Tag Team GX really highlight this as they had on average 240 to 280 HP wear as that was the target for most evolving stage 2 GX a few sets earlier. Then V Pokemon came out and had attacks which could Hit those numbers easier with slightly less HP, or evolved and had massive HP which could tank multiple Tag Team GX attacks.
the Power creep has dropped recently and the last Set of this Era doesn't seem to be trying to Break the Mechanics like Sun and Moon Era did
Hey man, wicked explanations, I don’t play Pokémon but still have a solid grip of what the interactions are thanks to you
Great work
Great content as always dude, keep it up!
Idea for a video, top 10 mechanics (delta pokemon, turbo, GX, Vmax, etc,) based on the impact they had on the meta
top tier writing and pinpoint accuracy, good stuff!
if you ever felt like doing it, especially after videos like this it would be interesting to see “why {x} isn’t problematic (yet)” as a video, covering cards such as Roxanne, the Electrodes, maybe even the adaptive evolution pokémon
Oh my god I forgot how fun video game card games were
I'm gonna have to play this again
Dude, I used to watch your Yugi channel just because of your voice, pronunciation and text; and now, you came with this.
I'll never miss a video, dude!
love this channel !! would love it even more if it had subtitles
Wow excellent content Logs!
Full art Shaymin EX is probably the most valuable card I’ve ever pulled I had not idea this much Jank was possible with it.
It's because it's effect is what in Yugioh would be called a "soft once per turn" effect, which is used for effects that say "once per turn" on the card but cam be used more than once if you have the means to either reuse them or otherwise can play multiple copies that turn. The card he compared it to, Crobat V, has what in Yugioh terms is referred to as a "hard once per turn" effect, which you're limited to only being able to use that effect one time during your turn. It's this distinction between these 2 types of effects that's important here, as having a "soft once-per-turn", such as with Shaymin EX, lets you abuse it because you can get it multiple times per turn to really thin your deck, and I would have to assume that it's because of this kind of thing is the reason why they made Crobat V's dark asset ability only able to be used once in your turn
Its interesting how many hand death strategies there are in Pokemon TCG. Yugioh had some too that had to be banned but it almost feels out of place in a Pokemon game.
Honestly it is probably more balanced in Pokemon because in a Pokemon deck you usually have multiple cards that can draw your hand up to 6 or 7 and escape the lock. Even as recently as Brilliant Stars format Arcues VStar/Malamar VMax decks tried to do a "soft" lock in combination with Marnie, Path to the Peak, and Malamar VMax's attack.
Most of them have occurred in the Expanded format. When individual pieces of a hand-lock combo are printed, they're usually balanced enough around the other Standard-legal cards they coexist with. But when they're given the opportunity to mix with old cards, things get out of hand very quickly.
I cant wait for the video that you shwcase unown in. I had a TCGO expanded deck that was shredding everyone with the HAND one. I had a ton of discard to draw and the recursion exeggcute it was super consistent because the massive size of my hand made it almost impossible not to combo off.
These are some good videos
Great vid
So that's why the first bunch of cards were banned :o When I begun playing Exp I didn't get the idea why.
I literally just got done catching up on all the videos i missed since you started this channel, lol
I like how they brought back N with Iono
Great videos! How about a video about cards from Unlimited that would be broken in Expanded? Keep it up! ❤️
Video would be 10+ hours long because the answer is all of them XD
Basically all trainers from gens 1 and 2 are incompatible with the morden way the game is set up. effects that are now supporter cards function as items in those generations. making players able to easily draw every card in their decks on turn one almost every single game (assuming your deck doesn't play too many non draw cards that can get in the way).
Theres a few things that are scary from gens 3 and 4 as well. Such as porygon; who has an abitly that lets you use a supporter as that abitily. Its able to replicate lt surges strategy and as you can see in this video; surge is banned (porygon was printed in gen 4 and at the time supporters were substantially weaker it acutally wasnt that strong during its time but would be completely ludicrous with modern cards)
I played during this time period and this deck rarely worked since it had too many moving pieces. so what did the pokemon company decide to ban? obviously they hit the wrong cards since theyre too busy power creeping the expanded format to the point you cant play your older decks anymore because they dont do the right amount of numbers.
I loved using that Pulikia Dalaga and Arcus tag team card but what i did when I was playing Online that got people upset was after using there GX move i would try to nock out with Southland V Double dip fangs and they do stack so you can add 2 prize cards and WOW it was Soo great when they finally realized what i was doing while I was laughing Soo hard cause they never saw it coming.... Think about nock out a basic for 3 prize cards... V GX EX for 4... Then the Bigggg cards for 5.. it was WILD
I love this video
very underated CZcamsr
i never played TCG and was just listening to this on the side when i heard him talk about Gengar and "Whore House GX". At least that is what i heard (11:15)
the mismagius combo was legal in sun and moon standard format for a while too using reset stamp instead of N
Ah, you have studying up on other TCGs. I remember you were skeptical of the chip axe being broken during a previous stream.
To use Milotic as an example I feel like the pokemon tcg would solve a ton of problems if they worded the parenthesis in Milotics ability something like
"Excluding pokemon with a rule box". Rule box referring to any pokemon that has a "Rule box" stating that the pokemon gives up multiple prize cards.
PKMN doesn't do errata very often does it? Apparently the 'rule box' rule is relatively new design tech.
This is like a secret boss deck
Super op deck
Stamp was legal in expanded for a while it was even more used than N in the combo
that tinachomp deck with island amulet is probably the most degenerate deck to exist, at least in the modern format, as soon as the set released in the online game the expanded ladder was filled with it, and so many matches were just coinflips on which person using that deck got to go second
I think a cool video idea would be to look into cards that although powercrept are still the best options in certain decks. like jirachi-EX being a excelent choice in decks that play level ball and specially with scoop up net. or how the metal duraludon is the best one for the Vmax deck, even if a dragon one exists that is also single strike like the vmax, or with primal groudon / mega rayquaza that both played the "ugly" versions of the base cards because they had better ancient traits
umm, slight note, you don't HAVE to take all 6 prize cards. You can win the match by making it where your opponent's field is clear (a condition pretty much unique to Pokemon). In this case, your opponent will likely have few to no cards on their field unless they have excellent draw power turn 1. With this setup, you can win pretty much immediately if your opponent doesn't have the energy cards to setup their play, or the pokemon to fill their bench. This combo is rendered even more potent if they cycled through all of their draws turn 1 with a good combo as energy cards tend to be a minority in decks not designed to use high numbers of them (generally speaking, no more than 23 by Pokemon's guidelines but very, very few decks would want that many energy as it is almost guaranteed to destroy your draw phase or force a mulligan turn 1
I've always wondered how could you make an N-like effect balanced in Yu-Gi-Oh, maybe a jar monster that makes both players discard their hand and draw cards for every 2000 LP their opponents has +1
Card advantage is too important in Yugioh, making your opponent discard a card is way more powerful than a destruction effect because it also negates all effects they might've had pre-emptively
Would be fun to see videos that aren't just "why x banned". Mainly because the various random stuff from yugioh channel helped me get back into that game. Why cards are banned not that of interest when i know little of the game (liked the energy and gen 1 videos much more)
Could have videos "worst/best cards that inflict burn" (or another status); "best/worsr cards with attacks that need coin flips"; "worst pokemon abilities"...
Granted i dont play the game so people who do might enjoy the banlist talk much more
I mentioned this in a previous video, but I'd love to see you make a list of some of the worst cards in the game. Cards that aren't just bad because of how HP/attack or that they got power crept, but because their effects are completely useless or even detrimental to the player.
You should make a video about the basics of this game or something. I came here from mtg and it looks cool.
I am sure that someone else has also done this, but free views is free views man. I like your style.
They should really errata all cards that mention ex, GX, V, etc. to just read "Pokémon with a rule box". It's such a cleaner design that considers the extended formats
I remember running ADP when it was in standard and just swept my locals with it
i still fucking love N
How about a Combo Video with the Duel Logs?
As an idea: Trainer/Supporter Cards that are bad in the Pokémon TCG but would be broken in Yu-Gi-Oh.
-Granted, most of these would end up being cards like Hop that allow you to draw a ludicrous amount of cards with no or little cost.-
Hop's cost is that it consumes your once-per-turn Supporter. Since there are many better Supporter draw options than Hop, it's bad. The video would just end up as a list of the best draw Supporters in Pokémon TCG, because they're all more powerful than Hop.
@@jakegearhart That's exactly why I mentioned Hop.
It is a bad card, yet it would be OP in Yu-Gi-Oh due to how it manages ressources. Many Trading Card Games make fun of how terrified the Duel Monsters Community are about Drawing Effects.
good video but I'd probably leave out cards like ADP, nothing was banned as a result of that card and the prize manipulation it provided was very different to the manipulation of Amulet & Milotic
I think Expanded would get a lot better if all references to specific kinds of rule-box pokemon were updated to refer to all rule-box pokemon, which I assumed was the whole reason they came up with the term "rule-box pokemon" recently, but I am continuously dissapointed that the change has not yet happened.
There's actually a lot of rules changes I'd like to do to improve the game, but it would be a big overhaul.
They can't do that globally since many cards mention a rule box card type for support, not just anti. They'd have to review every card that mentions a specific rule book in the effect.
GG End
Design-wise, ADP GX should've been an Ultra Beast as the archetype leans towards prize-card matters.
i dont understand, why milotic was a problem, when there was electrode ex around all along....it even give 5 energies...and now we have electrode GX
So "remaining prize cards" is how many prize cards AWAY from winning someone is, meaning your "remaining prize cards" value is higher if you have LESS Prize Cards? Hence the advantage to giving someone prize cards before using N?
Anyway, great analysis video! Thanks for uploading! I just feel I don't quite understand Prize Card terminology well enough yet....
Yes, once you take all six of your prize cards you win the game. So the player who is closest to taking all of their prize cards (has the fewest remaining) is generally winning the game.
Rocket’s admin and N are old versions of iono
10:29 With Milotic, what would be the best way to get 3 energy into your discard pile that early?
Battle Compressor
@@jakegearhart nice, thanks
What about a list of best utility pokemon that you never plan to attack with
From recent memory, I can suggest Dedenne gx, Crobat V, Lumineon V, and the Bibarel from brilliant stars, among others
Island Challenge Amulet ban was unfair, it was Jirachi EX that caused all the problems. I remember I was super excited to use Island Challenge Amulet on my Dedenne GX only for it to banned before I even pull one from booster pack.
Jirachi EX is a stupid 90 HP card nobody played outside of this one stupid deck , why wasn't it banned instead?
T_T
Ultimate Ray allows you to attach the energies to any of your pokémon not just the ones on the bench
That's technically true, but that would never be the reason why you'd use that attack. PikaRom (aka Pikachu + Zekrom tag team gx) had essentially the same attack, but it only used lightning energy and could be used to set up it's gx attack, which needs 6 lightning energies to get it's full effect. With ADP, it was typically the reverse: you'd set your it's gx attack first, as it not only cost 2 energy instead of 3 as ultimate ray did, but the sooner you got it off, the sooner you could begin to reap the benefits that broken attack offered. Because of this, you would then attach a third energy on your next turn to be able to start using ultimate ray, and since it needs metal energy to use, you would most often see Zacian V be used as a second attacker that ADP could easily power up once it got going; either way, it was never a priority to stick those energy you accelerated with ray to ADP itself since it didn't need them
@@matthewkuscienko4616 Oh don't worry I remember how ADP works very well I was just nickpicking.
I'd like to come back to the game but I hate rotation formats, but for what it seems to me, there are a few formats... can you do a guide to pokemon TCG?
Rotation keeps the cost of buying Pokémon decks down considerably. Without rotation, which decks are viable still changes with every few set releases, but the cards you need can sometimes be over a decade old and cost a ton. One of the best decks in the Standard format right now costs only $60, and $20 of that is a single Charizard card which will be worth holding onto anyway.
If you hate set rotation, then play expanded format. You can use your old cards there, but at the cost of having to deal with power creep every few sets.
There's 3 popular formats.
Standard is the main sanctioned format. It's super cheap to get into, meta decks can be sub $50 lmao, but it does rotate.
Expanded, which is like Modern or Pioneer (in MTG). Expanded allows cards released since Black & White (2011) and doesn't rotate. It's the format explored in this video by the way. It had sanctioned support (mostly in North America), but not since the pandemic.
Gym Leader Challenge (GLC) is a fan developed format. It's only about a year old, but is popular, endorsed by TPCi and even played as side events in tournaments. It's singleton (meaning, you can only 1 of each card with the same name) and monotype (you can only play Pokémon of one type, hence the format name) based on Expanded but bans Rule Box and ACE SPEC cards.
@@Chiffonaise you gave me the most intresting response for now, even if this commander-like format makes deckbuildings really difficult... btw, when you say from black and white to theese days you also include XY evolutions and some other "remake sets" as that one?
@@lollojojjo6612 Evolutions is just a regular expansion with an aesthetically retro flavor.
Tier 0 ishizu Made duel logs change card Game :0
As a league leader, I’d argue N was a logistically flawed card, particularly when it was the only shuffle draw card in the format at times. New players tend to have difficulty shuffling their deck, so forcing that repeatedly probably discouraged some of them from continuing to play.
Most competitive Pokémon decks require tons of shuffling with or without N. Search and other shuffle-draw cards are extremely common. Shuffling a lot is unavoidable.
@@jakegearhart I don't completely disagree-it is a skill players have to learn, but having had to help a number of new players, it definitely comes up.
If I had to play against the first deck I would be so confused lmao
Pokemon’s Lantern Control
Pokemon Combos are nuttty man. I thought yugioh decks could be toxic.
I'm kinda confused. These broken combos and interactions seem to rely on 15 different cards.
Misdreavus
Mismagius
Dusk stone
Island amulet
Lt surge strategy
Mars
Pick axe
N
Jirachi
hoopa
Giratina/Lucario
Double dragon energy
I don't see how you would have all the cards needed to do this in the first or second turn. Your opponent would be on 1 prize card and surely would be able to faint one of your Pokémon while you're looking for your 15 combo pieces
I’m a bit confused about the difference between N and Rocket’s Admin. I understand they have slightly different text but what does it actually mean in practice? Can any expert help me out haha?
I think the difference is with Rocket's Admin, both players can draw fewer than equal to the number of their prize cards (if they want to). With N you have to draw equal to.
With N, you're forced to draw a number of cards exactly equal to your remaining prize cards. Rocket's Admin allows you to draw _up to_ the number of cards equal to your remaining prize cards, which means if you wanted to draw fewer cards, you were allowed to. For example, if you were close to decking-out, you'd want to draw fewer cards to make sure that you don't.
Thanks for the info guys :)
I totally get why these combos needed to be banned for the health of the game. I just hate the idea that they get banned preemptively. I always felt that if Japan's player base gets to use a combo for X amount of time, the US players, upon that set's release, should get to use those cards for the same amount of time/number of major tournaments, before they're allowed to ban them. Otherwise, what's the point of printing those cards at all?
Cards are almost never banned in the Standard format, so players have the opportunity to use them in that format until they’re rotated out. The Expanded format is just much harder to test so the Japanese releases end up as more of a trial run and ensure that the overseas Expanded tournaments run using the intended and most often more fun metagame.
are you running a hearthstone channel also
Thats folks is why you do not design your entire cardgame around drawing and searching cards .
And also why CFVanguard has so little life manipulation effects outside Angel Feather, since prize cards are essentially Damage Counters
Drawing and searching cards lots of cards isn’t an issue at all when balanced properly. It just so happens that occasionally cards which are designed for the more popular Standard format end up broken with a card that released half a decade earlier that was overlooked.
Wow the way these cards are worded is not future proof at all.
TheDigiLog
Pokémon go slowbro:
Man i love your vids, i follow on all of your Channel, bust i must Say: your thumbnails look wayyy too similar among the channels! You gotta differentiate em! Set a graphic tone for yu gi oh, One for magic and One for Pokémon!
I’m still salty that nobody used fairy Pokémon against Adp? Like why not
Fairy Pokémon were discontinued the set directly following ADP's release. They're now Psychic types in the TCG along with ghost.
@@jakegearhart when adp was out. Before the change
@@MazterP28 ADP released in the last set that included fairy Pokémon. That was only 3 months before faries were discontinued.
As I recall, the main reason seemed to be that fairy cards just weren't good anymore when ADP came out. The only good fairy type Pokemon that was seeing much play at the time was Gardevoir + Sylveon tag team gx, which had been falling out of favor, and there weren't many other fairy cards printed in each set, and usually they weren't very good (such as the baby trio tag team, for example)
@@matthewkuscienko4616 you had Alolan ninetales for no energy.
Came from his Yugioh vids so I have no idea what he’s talking about 😅
Thanks, ADP.
Due to how stupidly unfair You are, Pokemon decided to make nowadays meta become much more fair that even a single prizer can works on tournament.
So um, we need to stop saying "Banned" these cards aren't banned but rotated out. There is a difference in Pokémon.
FYI, it’s Steel Energy, not Metal Energy.
In the Pokémon TCG, the Steel type is named the "Metal" type and Electric is named "Lightning"
Who knows why they decided to do this, but those are the official names.
Jesus loves you
Im sorry but you mention that ADP has been banned from standard but it wasn't until it rotated out which is what every card has.. I just wanted to point it out since adp caused so much pain and suffering in standard when I played the most 🥲