The "Anime" PROBLEM
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- čas přidán 18. 12. 2023
- What is anime? Why is this debate so predominant and what are the biggest misconceptions in the community.
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ok@@Stevem
@@Stevem Lol. Scott Pilgrim is an ANIME. Deal with it weabo elitist.
I said it was... does no one actually watch before they make themselves look foolish
@@Stevem Why do people like you insisted that Scott Pilgrim Takes Off is not anime? Man, anime weabos and elitists are so pathetic nowadays.
Mother's Basement did a better job of explaining that SPTO is anime. Maybe next time, make a straight-to-the-point and non-clickbaity thumbnail and title so that we don't dogpile your video.
Thank you for doing a unique take on “is X anime?” by going into the different production philosophies of US, Japan, and Korea. I had heard about them in bits and pieces, but this is one of the most solid technical explanations targeted at layman I’ve seen on animation :).
I'm glad you enjoyed it hope it helps
I still wish that we would have a MAL equivalent for western animated shows and for other non-japanese eastern shows as well. It's insane how many good shows and movies go unnoticed every year from the wider audience due to lack of exposure and anime/manga elitism.
Same for comics dude. Like holy hell, it is hard to dig up western comics that aint superheros.
@@Bionickpunk Oh my God THIS!!!
The fact that most of comic book readers have no idea about stories like Bone, Afar and Elves is down right sad.
It especially hurts when new original works like "The Hunger and the Dusk" an "Radiant" arent even being mentioned.
That kind of reminds me that in France, there was a magazine dedicated to animation of all countries, but with each issue they started paying more importance in anime. That's a shame though, I guess anime resonates more with people than animation from America, Europe or other countries. I'd say anime managed to create such a huge culture around it and has a sort of "coolness" and "unique" factor that other animated works haven't managed to do it. I mean, there are more people these days that analyze cartoons and animated films, but due to the stigma surrounding animation (i.e, that it's for kids, adult cartoons are only shock comedies filled with swear word or the only action adult animations are superhero shows, etc.), they're not treated the same way as anime
@@_NIKOS9_NIKOS I would also recommend the comics Low and Technotise, two science fiction works.
@Bionickpunk low has been on " Read it already dammit" list for years now, the art style is downright eye-candy!
Thanks for reminding me
Just to let people know that intersection and co-production happens more often than you think. One example Studio Trigger animating intros for other companies like Disney (Toy Story/Battlesaur) and Turner/Adult swim (Black Dynamite S2). For other shows and movies looking like the way they do, they shouldn't be blamed for taking inspiration from each other. At the end of the day it's all animation.
outsource work pays better generally so yeah
anime =/= animation tho
when it first came out i genuinely thought scott pilgrim was synced to the japanese dub, just so weird to see the anime mouth flap approach to english voice acting. shows how much loose mouth flapping is associated with the anime approach to animating. i ended up watching it with the japanese dub anyway and it felt completely natural to me, absolutely an anime imo
I didnt have the option for the japanese but (from what I heard) it sounded good to me
I did ask an actor on it. It was pre-lay with a scratch track.
Girl yes Thank You!!! Like I 100% understand that it’s still Scott Pilgrim and I love the fact that they brought the original cast back, but… Come on from the animation style to the loose mouth flapping to the detail, it’s an obvious anime made by Japanese animators. I too had to watch it in the Japanese dub, as English just felt off.
@@cheyennecolin5546 I'm not an English-speaker, so I don't like watching anime dubbed into English, because I find it kind of weird, I usually watch anime in its original Japanese audio or dubbed into Neutral Spanish, and luckily the original voice cast from the live-action Scott Pilgrim movie dub (except for Lucas) reprised their roles in the anime, just like the English VAs did, and they did a great job. Though it helps that everyone in Scott Pilgrim's dub cast has a lot of experience dubbing anime and plenty of other media in general, just for example, Scott is voiced by voiced by Moisés Iván Mora, who is known for voicing Rigby in Regular Show and Kabuto in Naruto, while Ramona is voiced by Karla Falcon, who has voiced Harley Quinn in various projects and also other characters like Bubblegum Princess in Adventure Time and Ino Yamanaka in Naruto
It's not just mouth flaps, you can even see some much more exaggerated physical animation that suggests screaming or exasperation (I haven't watched the Japanese dub yet to confirm if those instances match their voice acting) that is played much more subdued in the English-language version.
To add in on mouth flap thing
The whole reasons why Japanese side prefer it is actually the deadline point that you said in 5:22. Since in the west they release their season in batches they actually have the time to put in and work of lips syncing while in the Japanese side the moment you finish episode that thing is going on air straight away so their deadline is SUPER tight to keep up with it, so with lips syncing taking a heck of alot of time and manpower to do it properly that's the first thing they cut out saving time do more importaint part or (sometime and) setting up storyboard and doing the next episode right away. Not only that VC is done in 1 SINGLE DAY with ALL of the cast inside a single recording booth with their audio director and record the entier script of a episode in 1 DAY while in the west recording day are generally space out evenely between cast with 1 or 2 cast member recording per day so that too is a part of why they prefer mouth flap
TL;DR: Japanese media deadline is WAY too tight so they do mouth flap to cut down time and budget to get episodes on air as fast as possible
Yes it takes rough 4 hours to record the lines for a 20min episode (it took 8 hours for Kare kano because of the loose lip sync)
@@Stevem I can't believe how they were able to make Karekano with such a chaotic enviroment, i would have a mental breakdown if i was the director
that's just to record then double the time to adjust the drawings to match
@@Stevem Also editing audio, i worked in the dub industry in my country and is a tedious and time-consuming job
I love how Akira has really nice lipsync, its one of the things that makes it feel so realized as an anime, but I dunno if I'd prefer if every anime had that amount of detail lol, certain art styles work with it and some just don't. Not trying to say that that's what you were getting at, just sayin'.
And lets not forget the irony of some Chinese animation studios or "donghua" outsourcing their animation to Japanese studios because it's cheaper for them. Or game studios like Mihoyo with Genshin Impact effectively capitalizing the "anime" aesthetic in a scale that surpasses any Japanese studio.
it goes both ways since 2018 especially when the china japan deal was struck on animation cooperation
maybe the real anime is the friends we made along the way
truuuuuuu
I can't believe this ancient debate is _still_ going on. I actually can, but still, damn.
will only get worse over time really
It wouldn’t be much of a debate if people didn’t conflate the word anime with some idea of inherent quality. We all know what an anime even looks like let alone quality gets more arbitrary the more you’ve seen.
So I think we keep having this sort of 90s era “I just saw Akira and GiTS and my mind is blown” debate about what qualifies because there’s always a new anime fan.
Anyway, if Takes Off isn’t an anime then neither is Panty and Stoking.
@@TheOutlawed1000 Yeah, that is certainly a huge reason why people will fight tooth and nail for titles to have that word. I've seen plenty of comments along the lines of "As long as it is good, why can't it be an Anime?", as if not being an Anime makes their favourite show bad.
Great video! As a lifelong anime fan I've seen the anime landscape and fandom change over the years ever since the mid-90s. There was a time where anime was referred to as Japanimation. It was a very niche, sci-fi (in the US) based and adult targeted thing until the late 90s when it got more widespread attention due to Dragonball Z, Pokemon and the then new Disney distribution of Studio Ghibli films beginning with Kiki's Delivery Service and Princess Mononoke and has grown in popularity ever since. The later 2000s seemed to be when the debate over what was considered anime kinda started to me due to especially Avatar The Last Airbender. I recall the arguments and flame wars about it during that time. It seems to have cooled down at this point to become more like what you talked about in this video.
yeah it's important to understand that the forces that brought those terms to america were two fold early fans in the 80s who were looking for a term to use for these cartoons from a abroad and then video publisher finding a way to sell you stuff similar to akira
I find interesting how these types of partly geolocational distinction are formed. Animation is not the only form of media where it happens, but its definitely one that has the most heated arguments about it. Movie industry has Hollywood movies and Bollywood movies among other things. There are the Nordic Detective Thrillers, British comedy shows and Korean drama. Of course K-pop is a huge thing right now. Japan and US have just been better than average at flexing their massive soft power influence than many other countries.
In my opinion it’s about the feel you get from it. Japan and the West have different cultures, different humours, different norms, etc. I consider anime just Japanese cartoons with the distinctive anime style. So if it feels Japanese, (whether it was made in Japan or by a Japanese studio, or for a Japanese audience or not) then it’s anime, if it feels western, then it’s animation in the anime style. Because of this, imo, Scott Pilgrim is not an anime, because the feel you get from it feels western, despite having an anime style and being quite stylised, it still feels different from anime. Ofc this is a difficult ‘definition’ as it may vary from person to person the feel they get from it and ofc it’s a blurred line.
Man I'll be honest with you your entire point is literally "Gender is a state of spirit I can identify as a dog if I want" but for Anime.
The word literally means, japanese animated show. So it is that. Period.
I understand the need to tell apart japanese from western animation, much like how foreign films are usually presented with their country of origin: 'a french film' or 'a korean film' because the hollywood approach is considered the international default. However for anime, I could not place the deciding factor on the style alone, a western team can easily replicate any anime's style with enough time, rather I'd place the focus on the cultural differences (language, history, tropes, cinematography, storytelling techniques) that makes japanese productions harder to approach for a casual western audience. For Scott Pilgrim Takes Off, all the scripts were written in english, by native english speakers, for english voice actors, and very few japanese tropes made it through production besides their storyboading and animation style. I'd just call it an animated canadian-american-japanese co-production but if Science Saru wants it to be an anime they've got every right to do so too.
@@glimmerkepu exactly, that’s what I was trying to say, but didn’t know how, any studio can replicate the style of anime, but what really makes it feel like an anime all the little things that have become a norm in anime, all the cinematography tricks and angles and jokes and stuff, stuff that no production made for an English audience will grasp as the two cultures are simply different.
I think it would be great to get an insight into the history of anime in terms of the production and business side. I live in Europe where many don’t know how many "normal cartoons" from the 60s, 70s and 80s were outsourced to Japan for production. I really enjoyed this peek into what goes on behind the scenes, thanks for sharing!
depends on the country, france and italy both had reports written up you can find around about the history of localisation
20:27 I genuinely think adding a co-production category is a good solution to some shows not being included where much of their animation is produced in Japan. Still kind of miffed about Cyberpunk Edgerunners being included in MAL's database, but not Scott Pilgrim, since they're in the same boat.
As for what I propose anime should refer to: Anime is animation *primarily* handled by a Japanese studio, as in, the main studio must be based in Japan. Sure, Scott Pilgrim's director is Spanish--but he's worked at Science Saru since its early days! Which is why I don't think the ethnicity of an individual staff member should matter too much, just as long as that studio they're working at is... you guessed it, based in Japan.
Yeah the coproduction panel would be very useful but on the second point then you don't think Toei nor Madhouse is anime then?
Over 50% of anime productions generally are outsourced even the keys sometimes. So again it's the ship of theseus dilemma.
@@StevemMadhouse and Toei are based in Japan, so they would be Theseus, the captain of the ship. The ones leading the production. If... that makes sense lol
But the crew leading some of the productions are on a different ship overseas!
like entire episodes are made in the Philippines "70 percent" of their entire production model is done in the Philiphines so they per task lead the productions and sometimes entire episodes just like Dr Movie and other korean teams do at Madhouse. (also the ship of theseus is about the ship itself being replaced slowly not the captain or members)
@@Stevem Oh, I was referring to the show itself as the ship, not the studio. The ship is named after Theseus, who sails the ship.
No matter where the ship replaces its parts or how much of its parts are being replaced, the captain will always be Theseus, or in this case, Madhouse and Toei. Theseus will always own the ship, so the ship's identity remains as "the Ship of Theseus", just as the show remains as anime.
I hope I'm not getting too lost in the analogy!
Edit: But wait, Science Saru doesn't exactly own Scott Pilgrim, so... oh man, I'm getting lost.
It is funny when we talk TMS, who created some genuine Japanese-American co-productions like the Mighty Orbots and Little Nemo (although TMS was the only company behind Little Nemo's production). Transformers G1 was made in a similar way with Americans and Japanese behind the pre production storyboards, directing and character design, and even had some episodes aired in Japan first but it can't be on MAL because if Americans and Japanese share creative roles then it's presumed that the Japanese staff are subordinate.
yeah unless it came out first in japan, or its armagedon, beast wars 2 etc theyre very pick and choice with which transformers is what
Very well said. I'm writing from Japan now and people say komikku more than manga and "Amerika no anime" is just common everyday phrasing for American cartoons. The idea that "anime" is particularly "Japanese," as you rightly point out, is less about some distinct cultural essence that rubs off on the screen and more about nationalism in Japan and Orientalism in the purported West. As you explain brilliantly, it's also simply not the case from the point of view of labour, distribution, or audience. And, with something like Batman: The Animated Series, it's not just that a lot of the animation was done in Japan, but just in common parlance, it's "バットマンのアニメ" because it's a cartoon.
Honestly, this is going to sound flippant, but the way that MAL's administration and userbase tends to handle these sorts of nontroversies is part of why I don't use that site, and I think it's symptomatic of a bigger problem with certain segments of the Anglophone anime fandom where what is or is not "anime" becomes a proxy for weird internecine culture war posturing and pretentious medium gatekeeping. I think it is more than reasonable to state that the approach to animation which comes out of the Japanese anime production pipeline is particular and distinctive and has a unique appeal, but the argument here has nothing to do with whether or not Scott Pilgrim Takes Off comes out of that pipeline or speaks to that unique appeal, which it does on both counts, but as a nonsense shibboleth for whether or not certain people, or really certain kinds of people, are "real" anime fans or not, and that's just bullshit.
^This
With the way media has been flooded with terrible writing and diversity quotas that do NOTHING to enrich the final product, I'm all about gate keeping. We all should have been from the start
@@geoffreychauvin1474 good.
I'll be sure to gatekeep my communities from people like you.
@@geoffreychauvin1474 ^Not this
@@geoffreychauvin1474gatekeeping perpetuates those issues…
I appreciate your chill CZcams personality, so many other CZcamsrs try to come off as so damn quirky it just comes off annoying and disingenuous. You also have a sense of humor I haven't heard very much and it was very refreshing
All the best to you and your family, what a great channel you have created here. I hope you can get some rest over the holidays.
I'll try !
your videos go above and beyond on the analysis. thanks
Glad you like them!
@@Stevem Agreed! Lots of depth to the topics. Killer work.
Hey Stevem, very insightful video as always.
Are there any plans to make a video on Hayao Miyazaki's Future Boy Conan series? Would love to hear your take and thoughts as well as a discussion on the motifs and influences this had on Miyazaki's later works.
Take care!
maybe one day
One of my biggest pet peeves when it comes to what is "anime" when it comes to "Western" (God, I hate this term) works is that any show with stylized realistic character designs or anything with any sort of visual flare or a focus on storytelling is AUTOMATICALLY considered anime or anime inspired when it isn't. Doesn't help that so many platforms or sites call these shows anime or anime inspired for some reason. For example 2003 TMNT is a show that focused heavily on storytelling and seasonal arcs but all of those arcs come from the original Mirage Comics, and the art style reflects that. So I'm left pondering what's "anime" about it.
I feel like some people label these shows "anime" because a lot of anime fans have an aversion and animosity towards anything American or "Western." Movies, TV shows, video games, but animation and comics seem to get the most hatred. So when they find a animated show that they like, Arcane, Invincible, Blue Eye Samurai, etc they find roundabout ways of calling them anime to cope with watching a non Japanese cartoon. I don't like calling these shows anime because it implies that something needs to be deemed "anime" in order for it have any sort of artistic value or merit. For me those shows are cartoons but when people hear cartoons, they think childish, goofy, immature, but when they hear anime, it means profound, deep, mature.
anime itself as a term for "style" is like a mirror into the mind, I once worked at a uni for a bit during an interview with a tutor he asked someone if a portfolio drawing, which to me look like brats. Was anime or not and I laughed he was so off base
What's wrong with western?
I remember many years ago, I saw a Top 10 made by one of the original Channel Awesome members, I think it was Suede, about the best "Western anime shows" and it had your usual things like Teen Titans and Avatar, but then he also included Ben 10, which I never considered anime inspired, I knew it had a couple of influences and references but I was more of a comic book inspired show, and later the also included Beast Wars, which, unlike previous Transformers series, it had almost zero input from Takara save for the toy engineering, but they were designed in the U.S.
I think animated series, can't shake that stigma of being relegated to being mostly comedies and when a shows tries to be more story driven and having more action it's automatically treated being anime-inspired. The only recent animated series for adults that's action oriented and doesn't have an anime-inspired look is Invincible, and even then, people say adult action cartoons that aren't anime-inspired are always superhero adaptations, like the DC animated movies
@@mattd5240it often not seen as cool like anime
@@GeromeSmith-me9im There used to be really cool cartoons, but now there are almost only kids cartoons. There needs to be a resurgence of cool adult animation in the west.
Fantastic video. So glad you mentioned the Korean connection with anime. It really muddies the definition of "anime".
Nailing down the definition of anime has been so hard because there are actually two words called "anime" - the Japanese version (a noun) and the Western derivation of it (an adjective). The derivation refers to the so-called "anime aesthetic", something anime academics have vehemently said does not exist. If a work embodies elements of many Japanese animated works from a certain period - very roughly mid 90s to late 00s, when anime was establishing its international presence - it can be "Anime" (adjective). Even a literary work can be "Anime" because of how characters interact, or how action scenes are choreographed and described.
the entomology is different between languages, there's a third anime in french for example, but understanding where those words came from is the most important to understand that difference.
Technically while 97 is considered the third boom anime really started moving in the territories in the 70s like in italy and france which is the a fair few co productions arrived in the early 80s
Animation has very much become an multinational business over the decades, that goes for both american, japanese and european animation.
neoliberalism for ya
I thought this type of question died somewhere around 2010 ish.
Its all so weird because this feels like a very american anime fans debate. Here in europe, the vast majority of people would identify that show as anime.
There's a ton of anime highly inspired or based on western media in one way or another. If porco rosso and lupin are anime why not Scott pilgrim?
This criteria of "it must be marketed towards a jp audience" doesnt fit many shows on MAL, and is so arbitrary in the first place. It just all feels like some weeaboo admins gatekeeping culture.
That's exactly what they are doing, gatekeeping what is or isn't anime, all while continuously braking their own rules and being selective in enforcing them.
"Must be marketed towards Japan"
Welp, I guess Cowboy Bebop isn't an anime. Seriously though, it's _all_ animated drawings, whatever name people call it has no bearing on anything, at all. Call it anime, animation, moving manga, cartoons-- it literally does not matter. I think.
Space Dandy aired in the US before Japan and that's my favorite anime. The FLCL sequels were produced primarily for a US audience. Dragon Ball Super doesn't show blood so they don't have to skirt around broadcasting laws in many countries, making its audience global. I'm sure there are plenty of more examples than these.
Most of my favorite anime are distinctly Japanese from their tropes, the culture, and indulgence, but holy shit, I'm tired of people being this insistent on the target demographic argument.
What should their criteria be, then?
@@plebmcpleb5761 Crazy how you ignored Stevem addressing that argument in the beginning of the video.
I really appreciate you doing a light grazing into the deeper socio-political / socio-economical structures that make the anime industry possible and how these underlying structures of production exist in stark contrast to how 'anime' as a global cultural force is understood by the general populace / zeitgeist.
Hoping that there will be more talk about the hidden international labor that goes into maintaining the general historical narrative of 'anime' in the coming days. thank you so much for weighing in and bringing a spotlight to this lesser discussed aspect of the industry.
5:01 one more thing: I think the differentiation between anime and the rest of the world on the basis of "limitations" is kinda useless. Especially when later the walk cycles, camera pans and other recycled sequences are mentioned.
"Anime, unlike Disney, uses limited animation" even back then was a bit of a stretch, since by the '60s EVERYONE was using limited animation: Hanna-Barbera, McLaren, Zagreb, Poland, even Disney decided to take some notes from the UPA.
Same goes for the "realism vs impressionism" angle: the shorts presented on the international film festivals debunk that claim and place it along the "cartoons are episodic, anime is serialised" shtick.
take it up with Peter Chung he's worked for both
I guess you can say that this is a "No true SCOTTSman" scenario
TRUEE
You can avoid the ship of theseus problem easily. National origin of any given Creator doesn't matter, it's just the end product and its qualities that matters for the classification. Anime is a movement with a collection of attributes. You don't need them all, the cut off is arbitrary just like if we were talking about whether a work fits a certain genre (a movement isn't a genre, I am only drawing a comparison). And like a genre these attributes that determine whether it's included (in the movement) would change over time.
anime isnt a genre though, but the national origin dilemma can be fix but not using it as a defining argument on your website
@@Stevem I must not have worded my comment very well so I edited it. A movement isn't a genre, but has attributes like a genre that all need to be considered to see if it fits in the category, hence there is no need for a make-or-break single attribute that is required like national origin.
The Rick and Morty Anime is coming in 2024. A few anime shorts for R&M already exist of course so the "discussion" will go on. Wikipedia editors settled on SC 2023 being an anime. I participated in that Talk page. Suck in MAL and it is the 196th highest-rated anime on ANN as of today.
Edit: Is MAL a bigger database than ANN? It has MUCH more active forums but no way do they have as much info/database entries and industry reach.
the one place Mal now wins out is you can order by date on creators pages now which is so much better than a giant A-z list when researching and cross referencing
AniList is the best comparison to MAL.
Anime is about a muddied a definition as JRPG at this point
huh I always thought JRPG was pretty simple, though it's not a particularly in depth details
I know DreamWorks’ more recent films and all of Illumination’s films are coproduced (not just outsourced, but actually coproduced) by Japanese company Toho (the Godzilla people, who also made Your Name.).
Toho coproduces most of Universal and Paramount’s films since 2009, but there have been earlier collabs like Children of Men, Zack Snyder’s Dawn of the Dead, AKIRA, and King Kong vs. Godzilla.
Cats 2019 was also an animated film (done with motion capture like Advent Children), and Toho also coproduced it, so it’s also an anime.
Studio Ghibli also collabed on a French movie called The Red Turtle, so it can also be considered an anime.
mocap on its own isnt usually considered animation/anime in the strict sense, though there's debate on that.
but the point I was making here is simply having foreign investors and producers doesn't make that thing a cartoon or something an anime by default.
@@Stevem Cats 2019 was a fully mocap film like Advent Children or The Polar Express.
not sure i'd call that animation in the way we're talking here,
@@HydraSpectre1138...tokusatsu?(lmao jk)
@@derbydali Cats 2019 can be considered toku, as it had physical sets where the mocap animated characters are put into.
Corey in the House is my favorite Anime
I honestly don't like MAL for reasons like this, still stuck in the American Oldtaku cultural mindset, when even back in the day as you've said it's been an international animation style for decades at this point.
Man I do love category debates!
The problem with tying in the word with a particular method of creating animated productions, especially one essentially based around cost-cutting measures, is that there is a good chance that in a few decades most animated productions made in Japan will no longer be "anime". (Imagine taking human-made /8s and filling in the gaps with AI generated images to produce 60fps animation; that might become popular.) That's fine as it goes but I doubt people will stop using the word anime just because what they are watching isn't technically that at all any more. For example, Taiwanese puppets get treated the same as real anime by a lot of the people who are watching it.
Anime the word is going to eventually become orders of magnitude bigger than anime the method or style. It's just quicker to say than "animation" too.
i think youre overstated a future that will never come, their will never be 60fps ai lead anime era that's dumb, but the medium may change and realistically in ways it has but it's by distribution outlet which was one of the other factors brought up, OVA, ONA or Movie has slightly different setups but still exist in the pipeline
@@Stevem I don't think the impact of AI can be understated
The only way that doesn't happen is if it murks us all first lmao
Them: Its not the same ship as it's not the same as before.
Douglas Adams, upon seeing the Gold Pavilion Temple: Theseus is a bitch.
this video's title should be "MAL's Anime Problem"
not bad though i guess it s a bit beyond just Mal theyre only the catalyst to the bigger discussion
@@Stevem AniList, Kitsu, Anime-Planet, and ANN track Scott Pilgram; MAL and AniDB do not. This is mainly a MAL problem imo.
New STEVEM? It's like Christmas came early this year !
Friendly reminder that *Pingu in the City* is an anime
maybe sure it's polygon prictures i guess, but if moomins 90s counts then fair is fair
The difference boils down to the difference between American comics and Japanese manga. Different genres, different tropes, different history and different traditions. The style of anime actually originated in America as Ozamu Tezuka famously stated that the big eyes came from Western cartoons and similarly the lighting and shading came from old Superman and other similar classic western cartoons. Anime and manga are basically a fusion of western and eastern traditions which produces something unique, just as Fist of the North Star stands on its own as a unique story even though it is heavily influenced by Mad Max. Or how cyberpunk originated in the West but became a dominant part of anime and manga stories which again are a unique blend of traditions. And of course one only need to look at how different My Hero Academia is from western superhero comics.
this is a usually considered a lie on the japanese side, tezuka liked western cartoons that is true he sometimes said it was betty boop who inspired astroboy but big eyed characters were really common in japan prior via a lot of the current fashion mags aesthetics in japan from the 20s onwards some have said tezuka liked to think of himself as a cosmopolitan so he emphasised the international stuff when talking about his work.
@@StevemInteresting. I would like to see those fashion influences though. As those eyes on astroboy are huge.
If the production/creation & funding is centered around a Japanese Company/Group then it's *"ANIME"*
If it isn't, then is just *"ANIME INSPIRED"*
Simple as that, no need to think hard.
Doesn't matter if the *"Anime Inspired"* got some outsourced production from Japan & Korea, it's still Inspired since the people pushing for the creation & funding it aren't from Japan.
The term has evolved and been used by every Overseas Otaku community for more than 4 decades now.
Especially here in South East Asia.
If it's originally from actual Japanese from Japan, then it's Anime, anything else is either Western Cartoons or whatever the Koreans and Chinese made.
There's also the *"SOURCE MATERIAL"* route, the *"ANIME"* we see from Japan aren't just Original Animations.
Those titles have Manga, Novel, & Visual Novel source materials.
Same reason this isnt an anime is the same reason Avatar isn't one. Yeah they stylistically are inspired by anime, but the idea originates from someone outside of japan and japanese culture so its not an authentic anime in my opinion.
Excellent video as always!
thank you!
"It's created by professional staff in Japan for the Japanese market"
Now a days Mal is full of Chinese animation and even some South Koreans.
I wonder why did they decided to accept the chinese cartoons as anime but no from other countries?? is china paying them?
not well if so the chinese animation is buried
They include the small group of east asian countries, and even then they dont include each of those countries co-productions, cause then Studio MIR stuff would have ton of American backed productions like Boondocks, Dota, Voltron, Superman and Korra.
Its quite a mess of what they include and exclude.
Cool video! Thanks for the shout out!
Can anyone tell me what this animation is from at 1:45?
When I was a kid, I remember seeing some old animations that really stuck in my head. One of these was the ending scenes of Nausicaa, which I eventually found when they re-released the movie on dvd.
But there is one animation from my memory that I could never find. From what I can remember, it was about a boy with a sword and his growing company of allies. At one point, he visits an ice castle and meets a witch or queen. She give him a crystal orb, and then later, he fights a fire demon. He is unable to harm the demon, but when all seems lost he remembers the orb he was given. Touching his sword to the orb, his blade is enchanted with ice and he is able to vanquish the fire demon.
This has been a memory stuck in my head for decades, and the animation here reminds me of this scene. I'm dying to know what it is called.
The American title is Little Prince & the Eight Headed Dragon
Specificall talking about MAL. It is kinda wierd why MAL still haven't included Scott Pilgrimon their list though.
When we have multiple projects of the same nature already listed on MAL dayone of their announcement.
Like Cyberpunk Edgerunners, Star wars Visions, Altered Carbon ankme, Blade Runner anime etc. Etc.
It feels like somebody in Mal is specifically ignoring Scott Pilgrim
probs they put a foot down and are too stubborn to change their mind, they literally made the decision before the show info came out also
They are definitely ignoring the topic. No mod or admin has came in to address the counter arguments on any of the threads discussing Scott Pilgrim´s inclusion. They just stated their stupid excuses and left.
If it's not from Japan, its not anime.
Great video as usual 😁
Man, your videos keep getting better and better. You know what pissed me off about MAL. The only time they put a western anime and manga on their site is if it’s a French manga that got an anime adaptation in Japan and the manga is also sold in Japan. My Anime List is elitism and bias for series that isn’t Japanese or even French. I guess if your foreign series isn’t a hit in Japan it doesn’t count as Japanese oof
I love the idea of a co production category bc for yrs i would catch glimpses of DR Movie in practically EVERY anime on adult swim and many other places and I'd always assumed they were japanese (and before I figured they were animators I assumed they were some other part of production: sound, timing, etc) and now I revere them knowing they do a TON of the animation work but they're based in Korea
When I think of Anime, first thing that comes to my mind are the OVAs, shows, that were released in the 80s - 90s and perhaps late 2000s
I would say Oban star racers was also an early example of a blurred line of anime. but that said despite a lot of the staff being from Europe as well as the property the show was produced in japan. the European team having moved to japan to sell the idea to a Japanese animation studio and work on the show with the studio. Have you ever done an episode about Oban Star racers its a pretty fascinating story how it got made.
well in France there was also The Mysterious Cities of Gold & Ulysses 31 far before oban
@@Stevem his is true
Amazing video, thank you!
thank you!
8:06 what anime is that with the red suited girl on the speeder?
Thanks!
Hi steve, great video i just have one question: do you think china or donghua is going to eclipse anime as whole? Like some legends in the anime industry believe. Happy 2024🎉
Who knows, I have a hard time seeing it happening because distribution between China and the States (and its allie's) can be a bit tense, but it's not impossible if a show or two really pick up some momentum.
Bravo, vert detailed and insightful content
11:00 that Spriggan movie is kind of nuts, I have a DVD of it. The intro section was like a disney movie for adults and the action was slick. I must say it was a bit long, but I do appreciate how bonkers it is lol.
it was pretty crazy
I have actually had this discussion not so long ago about whether or not shows like Castelvania and Avatar The Last Airbender should be considered anime. I will admit the lines have become blurred as time has gone on. I would definitely consider something like BIG-O season two to be anime even though it was produced specifically for the Cartoon Network. I can think of several co-productions that seem to straddle the line between western animation and Jpanese anime that make it harder and harder to nail down what the definition of anime truly is.
I'm very into the production pipeline side of the convo so I've never thought much of avatar or castlevania in the discussion because they're set up like american animation pipelines , with lip sync and full animation. I'd also rather give the full credit to avatar to its korean teams rather than give it a term which has been constantly used to erase their peoples work
Speaking as someone who grew up watching both cartoons and anime from an early age in the late 90s, I never understood why some many people get so passionate into this type of discussions. Though honestly, I consider both Avatar and Castlevania to be animated series, not anime, since they were not produced by Japanese studios, and honestly I don't see why some many people consider that as a negative thing. Both shows, especially The Legend of Aang, had great animation and a story that engaged many people, and they managed to stand out from other television productions. I think many fans see the term anime as a sort of badge, a concept that gives a sort of prestige, though perhaps it's also due to the term cartoon being associated mainly with comedies and Disney movies. Though in the last 10 or so years, many animated productions made in the West have managed to attract a more mature audience and receive critical acclaim and not being relegated to comedies. Perhaps in the future the term "animated series" will become more widespread than "cartoon" and we'll see works that won't be primarily inspired or trying to superficially imitate anime
Stevem I am so 100% serious when I say that I want that plush so badly..
No disposable income right now but if you ever relaunch this campaign in the near future I will FOR SURE be there, money in hand.
Never stop doing what you're doing, I've been following your channel for years and I will continue to support it as much as I possibly can :D
I appreciate it, if the campaign is a successs theres a good chance for a 2.0 campaign
Thank you for your levelheaded analysis on the cultural history and production styles. Way too many people hastily overlook that part of the argument for the sake of petty brownie points towards their side of the argument.
It's nice to be able to click on a Director and see what else they have worked on, but MAL Denies you that privilege with their strict definitions on the medium. Even Wikipedia has a bit of an issue with "obscure stuff" that editors don't think belong on Wikipedia.
yeah wikpedia often has credits wrong on what people have worked on if not checked properly
So nice that Steven's mom is supporting his Patreon
Can someone tell me the name of the anime that uses cgi to do deep zoom at 10:21. I didn't find it in the source doc.
Howl's moving castle
Any chance of you making videos about soyuzmultfilm?
It was interesting vid after slightly boring Ghibli marathon. Looking forward for other vids in the same vein
Thx Stevem
no probs
Have you thought about talking about Robot Carnival? Super overlooked and wonderfully animated
ive talked about some of it prior im pretty sure
i learnt a lot here koreans you have my respect thanks for all the awesome stuff.
I hope your plush sells well. Though I don't have the money to buy them, and don't know how to use paypal because I'm terrible with technology. Good luck!
My favotite video essay on the topic is Ken Lauderdale's What Even Is Anime? It is nothing but an excuse to show the insane variety of japanese animatiion and their influences in all animation. Its a fun rug pull, but he literally talks about the same 'ticks the boxes...but does it?' tyoe features, and even talks about productions that were woefully mismanaged so as not to have animation, but slide shows accompanying video of the rad motorcycle the director bought with the film funds.
Etc.
Fun stuff.
I hope the West comes at least close to the quality level of Anime sometime in history, Spiderverse showed a little study of true animation that they learned from the land of animation that is Japan, but only a little, Puss in boots, Invincible, Arcane, etc etc, even with some anime animators, still have to learn a lot, especially storytelling, script, soundtrack and animation of course.
It's certainly not going to happen under Disney. Small studios can afford to be more risky and have freedom. There'd need to be also a large indie comics convention that's just about selling indie comics IRL (like comiket).
I just know you saw the utter mess that My Anime List did and the stupid excuses the mods made to not include Scott Pilgrim on their site.
So to summarize you attempted a naked grift. The intend victims of the grift called you out, and you're having a conniption fit your poorly conceived scam cratered...
@@jebe4563 Oh look, a Pretentious weeb. What, didnt use Japanese symbols this time? Need to amp up the smugness, this is seriously disappointing.
Where can you watch Scott Pilgrim the Animated Series?
Netflix
I remember The Real Ghostbusters and first season of Transformers being very anime-like in visuals and production. As opposed to quite so many shows which were animated in Japan but tried not to look like it.
I figured if moomins counted as anime(which is on MAL) then theres really no reason scott pilgrim shouldnt be on there. though I suppose you could argue your 3rd point in that situation that moomins was mostly catered for a japanese audience where scott pilgrim I would say not quite as much.
I would argue that the first and second Japan made animation adaptations of Moomins were targeted towards Japanese audience. Tove Jansson The creator of Moomins was so disappointed by the changes made to the first adaptation, that she refused to allow licensing of the show outside of Japan. The 1990 Moomin animation, that you are probably referring to, was definitely made with the northern European audience in mind, as it deviates way less from the source material.
But yes, in my eyes all three Japan based adaptations are Anime. Moomins is a funny curve ball answer to the question, what was the first anime you watched? Although, at the time I didn't know what anime is.
There is a great 3 part documentary about Moomins here on the CZcams. If you enjoy Stevems longer videos, you might like it too.
I haven't seen other people discuss this, but another dictinction i find when comparing japanese and western cartoons is eye contact. A lot of anime have designs that use the super big moé bug eye style for characters, which is both a way to increase cuteness and neoteny but also a clever way to save on animation budget. Erises that huge don't look in any particular direction and can seem like theyre looking everywhere at once, so a lot of japanese animators struggle to draw characters outside of the bug eyed style.
I notice this especially when watching anime with a simpler art style, particularly astro boy 80s and 2003. Simple cartoon eyes are more focused and rely on eye contact to look believeable, but since the animators likely aren't used to drawing eyes like that, they often look dead-eyed and seem like theyre staring into space. This goes back to how japanese animators struggle to adapt to a style.
Of course some studios dont suffer from this problem, like for example trigger who embrace the simplicity of their drawings and animation, but its always been a pet peeve for me whenever i watch some anime
I've heard conflicting stories about whether the voice actors in anime work around the lip flaps or they record their lines beforehand.
Is it different for every production?
From what I understand, most Japanese anime productions do the animation first, and then have the voice actors record their lines after it. I'm not sure weather the voice actors try to follow along with the lip movement or if they just record it loosely.
even if the voicing was finished before the final animation they still wouldnt lip sync it in most cases @@KingCam20
@@KingCam20 So, is that why dubs sound so awkward? Because dub actors have to work off of a Japanese animator's interpretation of what a conversation in Japanese looks like before they even hear what they're animating?
The only reason why Anime has an "Identity" is to culturally ingrain the expectation of Cheap Production -> Big Profits.
The "Identity" doesn't even hold its traditional tropes sacred, japanese authors that largely use western influences are often celebrated for it.
Anime is sort of hybrid art by itself, after all it was just emulation of western animation
anime has a pipeline and culture that goes back pretty far but like most things it's always evolving and taking from all over not just the "west"
The reason Japanese Animation has an identity is because it is the most successful by far. Hence the reason Buffalo Bills like yourself even care about trying to appropriate アニメ to grift for your Hipster Trash, while clearly having no respect for アニメ.
Mind the word アニメ is literally just a result of managing Katakana Phoneme issues in translating Animation. There is no issue with lacking a general word to describe Animation, you're just looking to try to turn アニメ into a skin suit, while being openly derisive toward the actual Japanese Industry you're looking to grift off of.
Japanese "understander" has joined the chat please read a text book lol
personally, to know the line between "anime" and "cartoons" is... well.. culture... is kappa mikey an anime because "it takes place in japan"? is cowboy bebop a cartoon because it "is based on the wild west"? well no, they are the perspecive of one culture through the lens of another. it is also the tropes that each culture created seperately. this is why you can call "cyberpunk edgerunner" an anime , but "scott pilgrim" a cartoon, even they were made by the same studio (i mean not the animations that i mentioned but let's say in a hypothetical scenario) it's the vision that differenciates the two art forms. this is why you correctly called chinese "anime" 'donghua', beacause (for all intents and purposes) IS a different culture. still closer culturally with japan, but still different.
I watched Cyberpunk Edgerunner and I felt more western flavor in the writing. But really in the case of Cyberpunk Edgerunners it's more blurred because of some japanese input in the writing, like the presence of Rebecca
I dont know if this making sense, but my way on how to differentiate anime and cartoon, it always start on the creative line, creator, director, producer and for me the most important the animatic director. If the these position is filled by western influence its a cartoon, but if it filled by japanese influence its a anime. I dont particular like anime style of storyboarding, like how they decide the body language for the character. So when i saw Scott Pilgrim, i really doesnt go well with me.
Thanks for also mentioning the Filipino animators. There are a lot of them working in anime productions as well as Western cartoons.
Maybe it comes down to who directs the aesthetics, writing, movement, tone and how it all mixes together. Because all the tendrils outside Japan, not only have no influence on those but, as you say, are trained to be invisible jobbers.
If what makes anime are its distinguishing characteristics compared to other animations, then isn't what makes anime anime the set of values compelling the people who make the decisions regarding the art of it all?
youre falling into the myth of auterism they are "invisible" culturally not stylistically
@@Stevem How does culture not affect style?
I never said it doesnt, in fact I said quite the opposite in the video, but it's not that simple using culture as a spear all can lead into say very ungraceful generalisations about a whole group of people
praying the plushie campaign turns out successful it goes so hard
I always say to my non anime watching friend that its about the feel if you watch any american cartoon and Japanese anime , anime feel some what emotional some times the line becomes blur eg adventure time arcane avatar etc etc but mostly yeah
Is it anime?
Is it even an issue... the real reason this is even being argued in modern times is cause people just want call what ever they want "anime" to make it _cooler_ in their eyes, like they tried to do with Avatar Last Air Bender and Steven Universe.
MAL has such a toxic mindset from its user base and mod team. I've tried to engage with that community over the years but came up with just terrible interaction after terrible interaction. I moved over to one of the MAL competitors AniList and never looked back.
Anilist is even worse. Much worse UI, dead community, dead threads, and existing mods are ban trigger happy.
last i heard the main demographic on Mal is 13 year olds so take it with a pinch of salt always
Scott Pilgrim reminds me of Cartoon network shows like Steve universe for some reason and the group Gorillaz in some of their designs
I’m reluctant to watch the new Scott Pilgrim series as I’ve heard mixed opinions on it of which it had been stated by others that there were drastic changes made from the source material for the series in a similar manner that occurred with the Masters of the Universe: Revolution series.
its a alt universe kinda take it's not suppose to be a straight adaptation and was never advertised as such by the author
@@Stevem Well, I think that’s what had gotten most people confused by in thinking that it was going to be a straight adaptation of the graphic novel series, since I’m pretty sure that the trailers for the series didn’t advertise it as taking place in an alternate universe, unless I’m mistaken.
@@johnnyd3158 the author wrote in the first announcement not to expect that,
@@Stevem Well, I guess some people didn’t get the memo then, lol.
well they were looking for something they never intended to make i guess shrug
The thing I took away from the soft power point is that Aardman should be shipping plasticine to the commonwealth.
My brain is broken
aardman is struggle to get enough plasticine together for themselves currently so i doubt that's what they need ahah
I saw this post once, that I believe was probably intended to be a joke, but I completely agree with it
It said that because Italian westerns are called
"spaghetti westwens"
Anime that is written and directed and voice acted in the states should be called
"Cheeseburger anime"
Shows like the boondocks, avatar, and Scott Pilgrim
I think that's a nice compromise because you can have it both ways. Sure, maybe It's anime, but with a big astrisk
I think this conversation also reveals what someone prioritizes in filmmaking, which isn't a bad thing but I think that's where some of the disagreements are coming from.
People who primarily care about the animation and not the storytelling will say that a show like Scott Pilgrim or Avatar should be anime because it looks and feels like anime, whereas people who are more interested in the writing side of a particular peice of art will look at the fact that some of these shows are written directed voice acted and storyboarded in America and not see it as such
scott pilgrim wasnt directed in the states, and its voice acted in both japanese and english from the beginning, avatar and boondocks are american production animated in the US pipeline in korea
Canadian Scott Pilgrim would be Maple Syrup Anime, while Avatar and Boondocks would be Cheeseburger Aeni.
@@Bionickpunk heheh i like that c:
Merry Christmas, everyone.
If it was made in Japan, and/or primarily by Japanese people, it's anime.
If it's neither of those things, it's not anime. Just because something LOOKS like what anime looks like doesn't make it anime. Nobody has a monopoly on stylistic choices.
While this is a great video mostly focusing on the animation side of things to me the biggest differences between so called "western" animation (which mostly means american and its rich allies, not the poor ones) and anime lies in the writing. There are big differences in the writing styles of these shows that no amount of animation being made in this or that country can overcome.
The are clear character archetypes, tropes, narrative structures, themes that differ in both styles of writing, Japan writes using (mostly) kishotenketsu, a four arc structure that does not need an inciting conflict to make the narrative progress, while americans use a three act narrative with clear motivations, conflicts and payoffs. Americans tend to prefer writing characters that "grow" during their journey and failing to do so is considered bad writing while japanese writers tend to make characters that stay the same even when growing ( look at Goku for an example).
Not to mention the cultural themes, the prevalence of christian values on american media. The way humor is handled.
So yes, while I agree that on the animation side of things lines can get blurred but the differences still persist to me, and glaringly so, on the writing front.
I'm wary of making broad generalisations of the writing in anime which varies dramatically by decade & genre, also they are far more likely to used kishotenkatsu that is correct
@@Stevem I agree that generalizations can be a problem but as a viewer that is not from a western country ( English speaking countries, Western Europe) neither from Japan, the differences in writing between these productions feels very obvious and apparent. True, through the decades trends in writing came and went, japanese written stories still feel japanese, the same is true for american ones.
It is not just the use of kishotenketsu, or the anime shorthands, but also the underlying country's culture that tend to come through in the works, their views on ethics, on morals, all of it is a different kind of foreign to the foreigness of the USA and their ways of telling stories.
I also feel that this is not a often talked point in anime youtube, there seems to be an american defaultism to the experience of anime as a medium that tends to take certain tendencies in writing as gospel ( act structure, character "growth" as a must ) and use them as a lens to criticise works, but that is just me rambling.
What brought me to your channel was the use of historical and cultural context on your videos talking about all of this weeb nonsense that we love. Keep on doing the good work and thanks for the videos.
there will be a difference for sure and yeahi agree using american structures to talk about anime isnt very helpful, the difference between them is always going to be a bit ethereal to ttrack completely because someone like Watanabe has a more international sensibility than say someone like Anno, the influences of the creators background can really change the vibe
For me, if the animation is subcontracted by an American, it is cartoon and that's it. Anime is written, directed and animated by Japanese people, from their perspective. Lucasfilms and Warnern asked Japanese animators to make animations about Starwars and The Matrix, that is anime as long as foreigners do not intervene in the direction, especially in the scriptwriting and development of characters.
More than the definition of anime or cartoon, people with experience in watching anime, they can differentiate something that is anime from something that is not, the kiss at the beginning, so vulgar and unfunny, you would never see it in anime, for a Japanese a kiss has a greater meaning or is irrelevant, its exceptions is that it is part of a central mechanic in the story, a type of genre that uses it abundantly such as Shojo or it is part of adult content.
People have defined anime as Japanese idiosyncrasy and that cannot be imitated.
Scott Pilgrim is not anime, what genre is it? If it were Shonen then the kiss is out of place. It's not even based on the title character, it's another woke deconstruction that is destined for the packs of Twitter and other hate forums.
This video is like that idea of the radical Transsexual and Non-binary groups of trying to appropriate the term woman, preventing it from being defined as a person with XX chromosomes.🙃
If Scott Pilgrim isn't anime, what's Panty & Stocking with Garterbelt? The word is so culturally and categorically vague that even Batman the animated series clears for me. I love me semantics but this is that kind of semantic debate that if you manage to gather the council of GOATS and get a final verdict on what or what isn't, what does it do to the content that was made? Nothing really. Animation = Anime = Using drawings real smart-like, all of it and the blur it has become is awesome and that's all that matters.
That being said, AI animation is not anime and I think we can all culturally agree on that. Good meeting.
I dont think there's any style limits for anime in how it's drawn since they look so radically different over each decade
@@StevemYeah, some of 60s Toei movies look quite western in their style and animation. Heck it took me the longest time to realize that Heidi and Moomins were anime.
yeah Heidi was so big in Germany they remade the show entirely in CGI after-all
@@Stevem 100% That's the truth of it. I joke about what what it's absolutely not, but that's just an ant hill not worth dying on if we keep moving the goal posts around on what's what.
2D is 3D, 3D is 2D, you're sakuga, I'm sakuga, we're all sakuga.
Also french anime, french did create their own brand of anime , that is clearly anime style but unique.
I would cite watfu thats, based on a french game kinda, and even has, its very anime. (french dub)
The French have been importing anime consistently since the 70s it's kinda part of the ecosphere of their animation now even with some groups replicating the anime pipeline approach to their work.
Not to mention there' s a couple small french studios who work in the anime industry
@@Stevem We should also consider just how much French animation and comicbook companies effect the wider European landscape. So many artists from smaller European countries go and work for the French ones cause they have an established ecosystem that supports their talents. Thats not even including all the French overseas territories.
I'd say the French, and the Spanish and Italians as well, are very good at imitating the "anime style". When I was a kid I thought Code Lyoko was made in Japan, it wasn't until much later that I discovered it waas a French production. In fact, there's an official Saint Seiya comic drawn by a French artist and there's also a game based on the anime Grendizer developed by a French studio. It doesn't surprise me since both shows were huge hits in most of Europe
And also, I think the character desginer for Final Fantasy VII Remake is from Italy, his name is Roberto Ferrari and I've heard he has been working in Japan since the late 90s, he was involved in the production of a cancelled Gatchaman show in Tatusnoko, which is a great coincidence since Final Fantasy's original character designer, Yoshitaka Amano, also worked at Tatsunoko in shows like Time Bokan and the original Gatchaman
@@pablocasas5906 That one studuo of code lyoko, i am really not remembering exactly, but i thoink they collabed with an asian studio, making it pretty "anime" i guess with jumping off with an "anime" studio and them going off creating their style, i think?! I also notice a lot absurdism i french anime.
Oh and dragon hunters is absurdist anime?! and its a manga but dreamlans is pretty good.