Game of Thrones: The Missed Opportunities of the Long Night | Part 1
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- čas přidán 19. 06. 2024
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In this 2 part series we are looking at the battle filmmaking in Game of Thrones' controversial final season. For Part 1 we are examining the 3rd episode in this season - The Long Night. Here we examine: the visual style, the battle storytelling, and the impact of it's subversive finale.
Link to Part 2: • Game of Thrones: The M...
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![Let's Rewrite the Battle of Winterfell [ Game of Thrones Season 8 Episode 3 ]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/k7m6HP95EDM/mqdefault.jpg)
Season 8 destroyed the rewatch-ability of the series.
Honestly that's a bit extreme. Once the books get finished I'm sure the early seasons will be a fun to come back to.
@@TheTurbanator123 a valid assessment.
Dark Wizard The problem is the main arc of the series is the White Walker arc, and its conclusion was so absurdly terrible there is no way someone like me, for example, is investing that time again knowing how it unfolds
S8 was atrocious. I don't think I've ever felt such disappointment from any TV series or movie ever.
@@LeviBulger *Corporate Social Engineering* was successful in convincing some "Fans/Customers" that Season 8 was a logically written story and those who disagree are idiots.
My best friend got upset at me because I made him a peanut butter sandwich, knowing full-well he has a serious peanut allergy. I explained that I was just subverting his expectations.
I shouldn't have laughed 🤭🤭🤭
You are lucky he did not charge you with murder ..... allergies are serious business , i. An be killed yes killed in minutes by a cloud of bread mold. Although i doubt u really did it
@@nottsork Do you understand sarcasm?
18:37 "If the trope that this moment is subverting is that the main hero must defeat the main villain and we established that it should be Jon's moment, not having Jon there for the subversion is odd. (...)If Jon were the bait for Arya's sneak attack the scene could have been given a sense of anticipation and dread, as we wonder whether Jon can stay alive or if Arya can get the kill. If they'd hold Arya's actions withhold up until this final strike I guarantee you that everyone's heart would have stopped as she was grabbed by the Night King (...).
Simply put: the scene doesn't really establish expectations to subvert."
THIS.
I respectfully disagree...ariya fight through the night walkers was to get to the king...it was a build up then the heart stopping moment when Jon was stuck w the dragon and ariya being grabbed in mid air after working so hard and using every skill she had to get to the night king. Fans of the series know that unexpected deaths come almost every episode and that the battle could have easily turned out differently... but what do I know. Just getting into film..JMO
Every episode leading up to The Long Night was the “scene” that is subverted
To be honest, the sequence that starts with Aragorn urging Theoden to ride with him into battle and ends with Gandalf and the rohirrim attacking the orc horde is one of the best sequences I've ever seen in a movie.
When blue dragon's breath could break down the wall, but not some rubble John Snow hides behind, plot armor is to strong.
The entire show is a missed opportunity. Even if you're not gonna follow the books, you still have this amazing fantasy world filled with amazing characters and you can pretty much just go nuts with it. Hbo doesn't even get involved. No cencorship or anything. Just go nuts. And they couldn't even come up with any storylines for the characters. Just go crazy with it and have fun, but no nothing. They had nothing. You couldn't have picked worse people to make this show then D&D.
to be fair they did a great job in the early seasons and they probably expected George to have the next book finished within 8 years XD but he hasn't so they were stuck trying to close it off. They're great at adaptations but suck at writing original content that's for sure.
@@burtonboard44 Sounds like they should have brought someone else on who could fill in for their weaknesses as soon as they ran out of material.
Does anyone else feel that the Night King and the walkers were NOT a threat to anyone? No main character died. And the few semi-important ones that did die, I felt nothing about their death. Everyone was surrounded and the next scene they were fine, no one around them. Even Daeneyrs' armies weren't defeated. They ALL came back for the next battle and extremely ready to fight. Not even the Golden Company could stand up to the armies that were in an "epic" battle just a few days earlier! Arya was able to kill the Night King without a struggle. Jon had a harder time fighting off the lead walker when he was still in the Night's Watch!
I like your video a lot, but I think it's pretty inaccurate to say that what distinguishes GoT from other productions are the battles. There wasn't even a major battle in season one, and in season two the battle of the Blackwater wasn't really that big of a battle either. Season two especially is one of the most liked seasons of GoT, and the battle is usually not what makes it stand out. I think what distinguished this show from other productions is the immersive worldbuilding and the character driven story, in contrast to a plot driven story (like for instance Batman vs. Superman). I, and many others, think the increased focus on battles actually weaken the show as a whole. I do love many of the battles, but it became apparent in later seasons that these started to overshadow the character driven story. D and D did a great job adapting GRRMs story, but when they had to do 95% on their own they were out of their depth, and thus packed the story with cool battles to hide the fact that they had trouble continuing the character driven story. And I don't really blame them that much. GRRM has the same problem, which is probably why it takes forever for him to finish the books. But all in all, I think you make a lot of great points in your video, although I disagree with your premise regarding what distinguishes it from other productions. Keep making great content!
Emilie Heldal agree! The focus towards the battles and not the characters dumbed down the show. It became about the visuals which funny enough is what I hated about last Jedi. I’m shocked to hear how he understood so much from both making them sound so good. But in actual viewing the characters (writing) failed convey everything he got out of that thrown room scene. Rain Johnson didn’t understand snoke and the show runners didn’t understand the nightking. They understood empty season cliffhangers.
Emilie Heldal
Totally agree, I loved the show for the story telling and character development! The battle scenes were cool and well done, but that was not the main point of GoT, as you so eloquently pointed out. And yes, they put more effort into CGI than in story telling after the books adaptation was surpassed.
YEP. I actually skipped through most of the battle scenes
Hardhome is one of the very few post-GRRM battles where I didn't cringe the entire way through. Most strategies don't make any sense from the beginning. Armies are commanded by leaders no army would follow (After his major fuckup in the Battle of the Bastards, no sane lord would entrust him with the command over his troops and similarly, no sane lord would continue supporting Ramsey if he had won; his plan revolved around murdering his own cavalry for crying out loud!).
Visuals had become much more important than proper and sound story telling, which resulted in downright idiotic decisions by protagonists on all sides and that is why for me, GoT was never about the battles, but about the interactions between the characters.
you are talking about game of thrones and the last jedi? bold move
Excellent video. Excellent references to Helm's Deep and TLJ. And such a good ending phrase.
Rian Johnson's own comments on why you subvert expectations are worth a look, as he talks about them serving the drama and characters. D&D seem to have run in the direction of general surprise.
He's done it. The madman has actually gone and done it!
After hearing so many people badmouth The Last Jedi, it's nice to hear someone defend it for once. It's so much better than people think.
this is one of the most well structured videos on not only GOT S8 and specifically the Long Night, but writing significance of battles and subversions as well
good shit my dude
Completely agreed with you up until the last jedi portion. The amount of things wrong with the throne room scene are a joke. But your comparison to Lotr was spot on.
You summed it up better than I did with my mini rant.
His reasoning makes decent sense though.
IF they had gone through with the ideas as he read them here.
The idea of parallels with RotJ with a twist is an internally consistent way to read the scene,
the problems only start popping up when said scene is put into the context of the larger movie,
and even more problems arise when it is placed in the context of the trilogy.
When I think of GoT and what happened - it reminds me of when you're dumped by someone you still have feelings for. That's how I felt - and still do. It's done, you know it's done and there's no turning back, yet you still mourn. Gopod job with the video - very enlightening.
Sam (along with loads of other characters who also didn't die at the time) was literally on the front line when tens of thousands of dead people came swarming over him, yet 1,000's of Dothraki on horseback using fire get wiped out in mere seconds. WTF!
Also One Major Missed Opportunity I found was that although no one actually fought the Night King (even though he could have been taken out with a dragon glass arrow by Theon or any other archer) they missed a perfect opportunity in having Jon Snow go up against an undead Eddison Tollett, especially after they had a previous discussion where they ask each other to burn their dead bodies before they have a chance to be brought back. This then would have added more depth to Jon's Character as he would have been fighting the corpse of his friend who the nights king was shown to resurrect mere moments earlier.
Although lets face it the whole of Season 8 will sadly go down in history as a Missed Opportunity.
To be fair, waiting to light the fire was a good strategy. If they lit the trench too early (or before the siege), the Night King could simply pull back his army until the fire is gone. I mean, what’s one more day to an army of the dead?
Edit: 16:35 plot twist: the Night King is a Lannister 😂
They messed up the moment they decided to let Daenerys's conquest wait until the end and give priority to the Night King's invasion which was literally rushed (I'm returning to this later). I mean seriously, she didn't manage to see the Iron Throne until the series finale? more precisely, until her _last scene_? (since she gets stabbed right after) What madness is this. Season 6 final scene was Daenerys sailing towards Westeros, so Season 7 should have totally been about Daenerys's conquest of the Seven Kingdoms, Cersei should have died there. Season 8 instead should have been entirely about the Night King. Before I wrote that Night King's invasion was rushed, by that I mean that they literally ran wild towards Winterfell like crazy. For what we know they were mysterious creatures living behind their magical haze, and yes, they killed wildlings, but they didn't want to march towards every town and slaughter every soul in the world, or they would have always had this behavior and there wouldn't have been wildlings left since centuries. The NK didn't need Viserion to breach the Wall, they could have simply brought (very likely the means by which the Wall will fall in the books) the Horn of Joramun back into the series, et-voilà. BUT MOST IMPORTANTLY, WHY THE MARRIAGE BETWEEN LYANNA AND RHAEGAR ?!?! Jon Snow was Lyanna's son and Ned kept it a secret because Robert would have killed him. That was IT, that was ENOUGH, that was merely the conclusion of the bastard's narrative arc, not randomly, just before Jon Snow was appointed King in the North. The "JonSnowIsTheRightfulHeir" storyline was useless and just aggravated the story.
ONE Of the many problems in the long night , was the As rightly said the nonsensical layout ,
you have a castle , castles are defendable , so dont stand in front of it with your back to a wall ....
if you must fight outside of the castle then poisition the troops to sweep in from behind once the enemy is in a kill zone.
i always enjoy ur content and perspective regardless of the topics, im not a got fan but i love listening to ur views on film & stuff
Everything other than writing is excellent in season 8
Acting, soundtrack (god that gives me chills to this day) and the overall visuals. All amazing. Just not a lot of dialogue and a rushed approach to story that felt shoehorned in
Atomic_ Wink Season 8 of Game of Thrones does a better job of demonstrating how important good writing is in film than anything else I’ve seen. In no other show or film is the gap between writing and everything else this massive.
This is the most sincere narration I've ever heard!
Shouldve had the dire wolves come swoop in right before The Night King gets Bran, also gives Bran something to do in the form of communicating with them to come in, and ties that long running plot point of the series to a conclusion
crazy how some of your vids get traction and some don't.. I mean, my channel can relate, but all your stuff is such high quality, it's still weird to see which do and don't.. the algorithm blah blah.. keep it up man!
Helm's Deep: Everything A Battle *Should* Be.
The Long Night: Everything A Battle *Shouldn't* Be.
This is the first video of yours I've watched, and I must say that I am really impressed. You clearly presented your opinions and analysis in a calm and respecting manner. You point out the obvious flaws yet don't just completely bash them all like many other videos do, and instead offer insights on how it could be improved upon by comparing it to other similar works. I must admit that I disagree with you on the part where you said that battles are what distinguish GoT from other shows (for me, it's all that ruthless political maneuverings in a bid for the Iron Throne that's the center point)), though I pretty much agree with everything else you've said in the video. This could really inspire me should I decide to come up with a fictional battle of my own in the future, so thank you for that.
Again, your complete focus and calmful analysis is what makes me love this video, and I look forward to more works from your channel. Kudos, man. :)
PS.. I find it odd and kinda funny that many comments in here took a jab on you just because you DARE to say something positive about The Last Jedi. xD TLJ isn't even the point of your video, you're just making a comparison between that movie's battle scene and The Long Night and how the former works better than the latter (read: "better" doesn't always mean good. From a storytelling perspective, Snoke gets offed anti-climatically and Kylo Ren becomes the true villain works better than Arya-ex Machina the Night King literally out of nowhere, yet they both still suffer from 'subverting expectations for the hell of it' syndrome). You're just making comparisons between scenes of two works and that's it, but it seems pretty much everything said about The Last Jedi except in a negative manner will gain you a dislike, apparently.
in the books, Dany is likely going to be overshadowed by Jon Snow after the battle of the long night...the whole reason why she would go up north to begin with was to increase her popularity with the people so she can usurp Faegon(a book character who will become king of the seven kingdoms after overthrowing Cersei, who won't be queen for long in the books, Faegon becoming beloved by the people of Westeros), Jon's defeat of the white walkers would basically allow for him to become worshipped like a living god while Dany would have sacrificed half of her army for nothing...to add insult to injury she would also lose a dragon to either the night king or Jon Snow. This would piss off Daenerys who is way more morally questionable in the books and would force her to rule by fear simply because she would have no other choice but to do so.
One of the best breakdowns made 👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼 good work!
"a clever man becoming a war hero" love it. Tyrions leadership in the battle of blackwater bay was great. I also loved how when joffrey went to leave Tyrion told him to stay so that joffrey could be a better king.
Excellent presentation. Bravo!
"the Bells" did NOT have a battle. There was only a dragon attack, wherein Drogon defeated the cite single handedly.
Thanks for illustrating all of the flaws of the Long Night and season 8 in general. Such an injustice to such a great storyline.
The Long Night was the worst of the series, however it is remembered more fondly than the later ones because it was the first truly terrible episode
I remember thinking it immediately after the episode, and I still think it would have massively improved the moment: Bran should have warged into Arya. It would have paid off his love of climbing the castle walls back in the very first episode. We see him warging into ravens earlier in the episode, and it would have been a massive bait and switch to realize he was actually guiding her to him.
Sorry but that chapter three transition was absolutely top notch 👌🏼😂
As someone who adored this episode and had a lot of time for the final season, I will admit, you were totally spot on mate. Thank you for taking a level approach and giving insightful critique. Amazing video.
I like the idea at 17:15, that living humans can be and might be the ultimate villains in the real world. Poisoned by personal, evil, and selfish ambitions is great but the show does very little with that concept in it's condensed space and time.
Great video and film analysis.
Battle of the bastards is the first betrayal to the theme of game of thrones. After botb no character had to face the consequences of their action.
Interesting video. I think I disagree with the premise of the video, though. I don’t think the battles are the best or most ground breaking thing in the show.
I also liked Season 8 more than most, though.
4:50 Video starts here
A room exploding shows no tension.
A bomb with a timer counting down does.
Also more/any white walker battles. Jorah, Jamie, Arya, Jon, Brienne vs. the others to achieve tangible ends.
THIS WOULD HAVE BEEN AMAZING!!! Omg!!! Thank you for actually making sense! I’m still a bit salty lol
Great video, but I disagree with your opinion on the importance of battles in GoT.
I don't think the battles were ever really that important, or to be more specific, I don't think SHOWING the battles was important.
The impact of the battles on the world around them was very important and something a large part of the series revolved around, but the battles themselves, regardless of how great they were (and they were great), were never the point of the series.
It was interesting to hear someone say that the battles are integral to GoT though, since from most other people I've heard the opposite.
I didn't believe in the lighting of the Battle of Helm's Deep at all. It just looked artificial the entire time.
I mean, sure. There are epic moments abound in a Battle that takes place at night, which is undoubtedly not an ideal setting for a raging armed conflict to occur, and the Battle at Winterfell wasn't exactly ideal either, barely being able to see anything at all.
But, Helm's Deep was just too far in that one direction. It was supposedly backlit by a REALLY bright Moon, that we hardly ever actually see, in the sky, if at all. I don't remember.
And it almost appears so perfectly lit that it may as well be a daytime Battle anyway. The clarity being JUST as good as if it were.
There's got to be a happy medium, that's all I'm sayin', that i don't believe either DP reached.
Awesome video, BTW. 👍
I truly hope D&D never find work in media again for anything other than the adaptation of OTHER PEOPLES ideas.
Brilliantly said... 👍🏼
"There's a possibility that the rise of skywalker does nothing interesting with that setup"
...oh cruel fate
Your conclusion man, great work Well scripted
I like the way you paused & then the "subverting expectations" came in xDDDDDDDDDD
Great video, very interesting!
Just wanted to ask how you mean when you say that the battle of Helm’s Deep is romanticised?
Oh, simple Ulmo. Stick to your waters, big guy.
This mortal means romanticized in the literary sense:
"Romanticize (verb): to deal with or describe in an *idealized or unrealistic fashion;* make (something) *seem better or more appealing than it really is.*
Battles are not as straightforward as Helm's Deep is portrayed. Neither plot nor clarity (in regards to both Good v Evil *and* visual clarity). It is a Hollywood battle.
Battles such as the example given as juxtaposition (Battle of the Bastards) do a better job of portraying what it would actually be like. The same things could be said of Bronn when the Lannister line is attacked as of Jon during BotB. Braveheart also does a fairly good job in this, in at least a couple of the many battles in that movie.
How's Valinor btw? The Void is cold and dark...
@@MorgothBauglir13579 Haven't been there in a while, usually just hang around in the many waters of the world... It's been quite uneventful without you around but this Sauron dude might be causing some more trouble so we'll be sending some emissaries to help the free peoples deal with him... :P (damn that's nerdy).
Thanks for the explaination though I know the meaning of the word 'romanticised'. Just wanted to know if the guy actually meant it in the classical sense or in any other way cause if it was in the classical sense of the word then I can't fully agree.
I can agree on that in relativity to the real world the battle of the bastards is a more realistic representation of what a battle is but it's hard to compare game of thrones (asoiaf) with something like LOTR which I would consider to be a higher calibre of the high fantasy genre.
There are more "fantasy" like elements in LOTR which obviously takes away a bit from the realism though I dpn't think that matters.
I think they both deal with the horrors of war in almost an equal fashion, showing it to be a horrible thing that has actual consequences.
What I'm trying to explain is that neither Tolkien nor Peter Jackson failed in their attempts to show what war is and what war does, with other words they didn't romantisice it any more than George RR Martin and D&D did.
Probably failed miserably trying to explain my view on the matter but there you are.
At your service and your family's
Everyone here should go and whatch the video of the guy that attepts to rewrite the long knight. He does a heck of a good job. Making the difference between a senseless season and one that would have fullfilled each character's arc.
nice video!
8 seasons? There's only 6 at best.
Good video btw
Maybe 6 seasons, and a couple of specials here and there
@@kyranlatham783 fair enough
"Illegible" not "ineligible". Excellent episode!
I see your point about Snoke's death and being a character driver (hehe) for Kylo and Rey. But the reason it never worked for me was a somewhat separate issue: lore implications. He may have been a monotone super villain, but we (unless otherwise noted in Ep IX) have to assume he was the wizard responsible for somehow elevating a hidden neo-nazi army complete with ships, tech, and super weapons all during the Republic's rule. Also, he was the only character afaik that could telekinetically drag around human bodies like rag dolls, beyond a simple force push. That implies he could've been the most powerful dark force-user in the saga. If his powers or leadership implications had been toned down, his death might've been less perplexing, but I couldn't ignore these thoughts when seeing TLJ in the theater. Star Wars is a sprawling fantasy world, it essentially REQUIRES viewers to pay attention to lore happenings in addition to character arcs.
And to an extent, the Night King's meaning suffers from this untimely death too. We see him level Hardhome and a section of the Wall (thx to Dany) but nothing else. His other northern destruction is only implied, but offscreen. Giving some main characters, who are still mere mortals, a tough time at a single fortress for 80 minutes does not measure up to 8 seasons of buildup. It just doesn't. Even if the battle properly affected the heroes at an arc-level as you proposed in this video, the entire concept of NK dying in one night seems difficult to redeem. The White Walkers were supposed to transcend trivial concepts like human squabbling and character development...so not having/showing the large scale results of their devastation, in favor of a quick return to the queen conflict, makes GRRM's world feel 10x smaller than it used to. The entire season should've been dedicated to zombie blitz, while we watch our heroes react to the reality of humanity's ignorance.
In fact, I'm not so sure putting a face to the White Walkers was such a good idea. I hear the "Others" in the books have no leader. They are simply a force of otherworldly nature, and I think that works better thematically.
kingofthesharks I agree completely, the Night King took the show to the grave with him
well said
what is the music soundtrack at 28:30
9:55 would be impactful but nothing comes from it. Those characters dont die because he left them and he doesn't even do the thing he left them for, fight the nk
Thought your TLJ comparison/analysis was good actually. Subbed.
I understand what he was trying to say but geesh that cinematographer missed the mark (referring to the quote from the Variety interview 5:55) TV and movies are a visual medium...if I can't see, I can't have as much of an emotional reaction.
I always felt the show squandered the opportunity it had with Cersei not aiding in the battle of the Long Night. Yes, there were a few losses on the heroes' side, but only characters that had obviously run their course and had little else to offer other than dying. So ultimately it didn't matter that Cersei didn't send any help, our heroes didn't need it. And even in the battle for King's Landing, it's apparent that reserving her army AND hiring a storied mercenary company in addition didn't provide her any benefit as the Northern/Targaryan faced minimal resistance as they conquered the city even before Dany went on her rampage.
It's a plot point that has zero consequences. It makes neither of the battles more difficult for the good guys, nor does Cersei face any repercussions as a result of her self-centered decision. The plot just kind of forgets that she promised to send help once the battle is over.
Holy crap thank you so much for defending Snoke and his death. I've been fighting that battle for almost two years now
You're fighting a losing battle because that argument always falls to very similar problems with. the Night King. The idea behind setting up Kylo's conflict was brilliant but Snoke's character and his death were poorly executed because Rian Johnson treated Snoke like a meaningless plot device. It's the same problem I had with the Night King, a lot of build up only to be disposed off like caricatures with little to no meaning.
@@misterwabbit4690 or with dany, so according to the s8 defenders the show has been building up to mad dany since the beginning and while i don't agree with this ok fine maybe they were, that still doesn't change the fact that after 8 seasons of build up she dies the next episode. seriously what's the point in turning any of your characters evil if your just going to kill them off the next episode.
@@jacobmccabe458 Honestly S8 defenders are more hilarious than TLJ defenders, either way I don't find any objective defense for either of them. They're both atrocious, and what sucks is that now D&D are going to be working in Star Wars.
@@misterwabbit4690 But Snoke had like 4 minutes of screentime in TFA, The Night King had 8 seasons of buildup, always hinting toward bigger things and huge connections to characters. Snoke was connected to Kylo, but when Kylo kills Snoke, he's breaking that connection, serving his character arc. Snoke was a red herring, the Night King was handled poorly because he was killed by a character with no connection to him after 8 seasons of buildup between him, Jon, and Bran. Also, the whole episode is kind of dumb, especially their battle plans
@@PayondeAwsome That just reaffirms my earlier point that Snoke was just treated like another meaningless plot device as opposed to having a fully developed character which could have explained the significance of his connection to Kylo and given more context. The fact that all of that potential was blatantly ignored by Rian Johnson just in order to "subvert expectations" is bad writing. I don't disagree with your statement about the Night King but the one thing that the context behind the poorly executed arcs both characters (NK and Snoke) convey that the fad of "subverting expectations"; created by their respective writers; can only work well when the audience has more context. Just like how there was no explanation behind NK's connection to Arya, there was no literal explanation of the connection between Kylo and Snoke.
I don't know if you are aware of this, but there is a lost ending to the Battle of the Bastards that has never been fully shot. Do you know why? Because Friedman (Benioff) and Weiss, mostly Friedman, gave unrealistic scenes for Miguel. Dipshit and Dumbass wanted to use real horses and when working with animals there are procedures and policies if not laws when using animals. Look at Braveheart and you see how it was done properly.
In the original plot that was never shot, the Umbers turned on the Bolton army and they had planned it from the beginning, they were going to do it all along. I get tired of people pointing to that battle and saying how great it was and it was great but it also got weird too given that certain characters who were set to develop like Lord Umber and House Umber were thrown under the bus.
Also, NEVER use Helm's Deep as a reference to The Long Night because people could see what was going on in Helm's Deep and no one could see shit in The Long Night and that is a spit in the face to the crew, director and cast. There is no way anyone is going to convince me and others that the lighting was just fine in The Long Night. Benioff and Weiss didn't give a fuck about it, they mostly showed up in the documentary piece so they would be seen, though I will credit Weiss for caring because you do see them more. It could and should have been so much better but Benioff is a deluded narcissist who gave impossible demands to the directors.
If you wanna cover Game of thrones then go for it! I'm all here for some GoT videos
I was onboard until you justified Star wars.
Sometimes you watch a thing simply to find more of the same, and in the style in which you are accustomed.
When star wars, trek, thrones, anything... Starts to become surprising, and especially uncharacteristically... You lose the audience. 7 seasons count for nothing if the eighth throws it away.
Of course, there is a grey line, here.
George Lucas is not the best at dialogue. But to create a path to visual effects and retcon his own material, that is a sort of genius.
The books picked up the legacy and made it articulate. The games made it interactive. But the sequels only disappointed. Where do we begin to go with the disappointment? Because it's been building for decades?
I think we set aside the achievements it made and ask for a call to simplicity. Lucas made simple stories, dialogue and twists. I, for one, am not going to Star wars to be subverted. I want more of the same.
Will you do video on Endgame battle?
Endgame yes, not sure on the battle. There isn't anything particularly interesting/noteworthy in how they staged the final battle, but the drama before and during the battle is definitely worth talking about.
@@FilmsStuff Sweet!
@@FilmsStuff Endgame wasn't really about the action scenes.
Endgame was more of a character peice. Providing closure for the core Avenger's characters and concluding their character arcs.
Personally I disagree - right until the spectacular long shots of the battle of bastards I didn't feel I'm watching anything I didn't see before. The show won my attention with the totally unexpected execution of Ned Stark. I think for most people the unique aspect of GoT is the surprise element - anything can happen anytime to anyone, and often it does!
I know I'm 9 months late but I think a better closing line would of been if Kingslanding wants to skip out on winter then Daenerys will keep them warm
As an example of good subversion of expectation you use the film that made subversion of expectation a joke?
I’m a huge fan of this channel, but there’s no way you’ll convince me that the Last Jedi’s throne room scene was a good idea. Still left a like on the vid tho 👍🏾
I mean, he just gave one of the best justifications of that scene, Snoke isn't important or interesting, just mysterious. His purpose is to serve Kylo and Rey's characters (the main characters of the trilogy)
Payon de I get that, but the fact that Snoke was unimportant is what makes the whole thing pointless to me. Sure Snoke is dead, but how are things different afterward? Rey is still dedicated to the Jedi and the Rebel cause. Ren is still a villain and the face we associate most with the First Order. Sure he’s technically the Supreme Leader I guess, but what did Snoke really do as the leader anyway?
Preach
@@PayondeAwsome kylo isn't really that interesting either and i'm pretty sure snoke is more important.
@@jacobmccabe458 If you think Snoke is more interesting than Kylo, you haven't been watching the movies. Kylo is portrayed as extremely torn between dark and light, coming from a great heroic family. This contrast nicely with Rey coming from nothing. Snoke is only there to serve Kylo and Rey's characters, objectively, Snoke has far far less going on with his character
"So there's a possibility that The Rise of Skywalker does nothing interesting with this setup, but still the foundation is there. The opportunity to tell a more impactful story" oh boy it hurts reading this in 2020.
What do you mean? They haven't made any more Star Wars films since TLJ.
This video is s missed opportunity. Battles aren’t the point of GoT.
I agree with his points on TLJ being the superior end to a villain to elevate another character. Why is that? simple, it's all because of TFA. That's the only explanation that is needed. Snoke was simply a rip off of Lord Sidious. Using Plagueis in that role would have been far more appropriate for the mass power and innovation that the First Order had. If it wasn't that, then it should have been someone that was high in the ranks of the Galactic Empire before it's fall. Someone like Thrawn, could have easily fitted in into this position. Instead, Disney picked a nobody that even has a similar power to Sideous''s? No. Then the prophecy completely becomes pointless when there is a Dark Side user that has this power. This would even make even more less sense if it turns out that Snoke not only was this random person with a similar power level with sidious but also turns out to be the new " Inquisitor" for Sidious. Or simply put, one of his "Dark Disciples" from Legends? No again, that's bad writing. In that case, Disney should have copied off Legends way more then they did and just had Mara Jade fill in for Snokes Role.
Plainly speaking, the Sequel Trilogy is crap either way. Just TLJ tried to do things that could have done something with the Saga to make it different from the original.
It would be nice if there were more comments about Game of Thrones than Star Wars on this Game of Thrones video.
One problem was that 90% of the fan-theories were miles better than what actually happened 😂
Dude. I think that would have been the only way to make her breaking bad work... I never thought I would hear anything that would make that work at all lol
think personally the back story of a Dance of Dragons could have been the plot for a much needed Season 9 of GOT a sort of reimagining of the dance of dragons between Jon and Daenerys, Targaryen vs Targaryen, Dragon vs Dragon Rhagal vs Drogon. Fighting for the iron throne, and the end result still the same nobody really won and the Kingdom nearly destroyed.
No winner=boring storytelling
It would still suck. GoT needed some old classic heroism.
I can't take anyone seriously who defends the storytelling in TLJ. Sorry
Kinda lost me when he called Snoke an uninteresting antagonist.
@@DamienBlade we don't know if he's interesting or not because there's no fucking story, just like the rest of that toxic POS
I'm at 6:50 and I haven't heard a single missed opportunity.
THE NIGHT KING GOT SNOKED!
... oh wait, you actually gave reasons on why Snoke potentially had a better death (I still think he's a wasted character). That and when he died his entire army didn't get "mothershipped" like someone pressed the easy button.
I do think that if they were going to have Arya kill the Night King, they could have at least had Jon fight him and wind up in a bad situation as kind of a throwback to the scene where Ned Stark is about to be killed by Arthur Dayne, then in front of Bran and Jon, she appears and stabs him in a back, forever ending the long night and referencing that scene where a superior opponent has to be brought down by a dirty tactic.
Jon gave Arya her sword which encouraged her to practice and learn, then later on it reminded her that she in fact someone who has a home to go to.
Bran, after staring at it for quite some time, gave Arya her dagger, a weapon that in her hands destroyed the Night King. I wouldn't have this outright destroy the White Walkers and their entire army, but it would weaken them and force them to return to the Lands of Always Winter for another several millennia and retaining a purpose for the Night's Watch. Viserion would have been destroyed by Drogon as Viserys was killed by Drogo (predictable, yes, but a theme of the story is that history repeats).
Am I a toxic fan?
I put the toxin on its skin if I get the hose again.
Nesseight The main problem is that the Night King died in one night, his first battle, in the most stupid way possible. Ten thousands years he planned and skimmed to... kill Theon Greyjoy, please
@@tomasbedoya2901 I'm not saying that it's great, personally I think that the long night should have been a season, not an episode, but if they're going to rush it like that at least give it synergy with other things that happened.
@@Nesseight exactly, I was agreeing with you
I will never miss a video shiting on game of thrones season 8
so why snoke actually matters and isnt just some "boring played out evil guy"
the emperor didnt need a backstory in the OT (even tho he got 1 l8r) because its establishment is worked into the fabric of the story. hes the man on top of this empire weve known to be established since the first movie. they, and by extension the emperor, have been around this whole time.
now take the facr the empire was destroyed and the rebels now rule. WE NEED TO KNOW HOW SNOKE ROSE TO POWER AND MADE A BETTER, YES BETTER, EMPIRE WITH LESS RESOURCES.
why does that matter you ask? Snoke, up until his death (which is 50% of this entire trilogy), IS THE REASON EVERY SINGLE POINT OF THE PLOT IS HAPPENING.
WITHOUT SNOKE THERE IS NO STORY TO BE TOLD. HE IS SO IMPORTANT THE PLOT WOULD NOT HAPPEN IF HE WASNT IN THE STORY.
snoke is boring because rian didnt want to make a compelling and interesting backstory. one that snoke NEEDS for the story to actually make sense and have a reason to progress.
you cant claim TLJ does the throne room good by subverting the expectations of a run of the mill bad guy being the final villian.
this is because snoke was never supposed to be a by the books villian. based on JJs TFA, he is much more important to the plot than the big bad.
you cant claim a subversion is good if you are subverting a trope that the character was fundamentally not supposed to be.
just like you said about ayra youre not subverting anything here as there is nothing to subvert.
rian WANTED to make snoke a boring one note villian but every piece of evidence from TFA tells us this is the opposite. since tlj is a SEQUEL and NEEDS to follow the rules and characters established in the previous installment.
what rian is doing here isnt subversion... its literally inconsistent character writing coupled with the premature death of a central character and his plot points.
its not solid subversive writing its litterally just poor storytelling
one last thing. you said good subversion opens the doors to new possibilities in the story.... its funny you said that right after your snoke point because think about it..... what doors opened? rey and kylo are in the same spot as before, so is every other character.
the only thing killing snoke did was actually JUST CLOSE DOORS. we cant find out about his past or how he rose to power or his relationship with luke or rey or kylo or anyone else.
no doors were opened here only slammed shut.
This. This is exactly what I wanted to say. I can't upvote this enough. You can't build a world where a central yet mysterious figure is cut off before you understand the finer points of said character. The information that was expected to be revealed is now under lock and key. Abrams now has to finish what he started just so we get the exposition needed that was discarded by Johnson.
@@lylearoyii This hasn't aged well
@@userunknown203 neitherhas rise of skywalker
Haha you were bang on about rise of Skywalker... ditching the most interesting villain in the series for the sake of fan service and spectacle
The most interesting villain in the Disney trilogy was Kylo Ren.
I just found it really hard to watch. Just a mess.
Lol why was anyone watching the hobbit movies after they watched the first hobbit?
23:10 - The Rise of Skywalker did nothing with this set-up. >.
The cinematography in this episode was brilliance. So was the prospective the issue was not the cinematography. And I hate GOT lol
I disagree that Snoke wasn't an interesting character. Who he was and where he came from was one of the many questions I had going into the movie. Kylo on the other hand, I never really cared for. Otherwise, very interesting insights.
Such a great show....
...until....
*sad noises*
The reason why Snoke's death doesn't work is much more significant than merely being subversive. It's because he, along with the First Order and even Rey, are contradictions in a universe where the good guys have already won, so to speak. After the Return of the Jedi, it was implicit that the threat was gone and the only living Jedi was Luke (and Leia). So, to simply re-establish the previous status quo without explanation is just insulting to the audience. When Snoke died, we all knew that there would be no explanation and that the people at Disney frankly don't give a damn.
HOLY SHIT OF COURSE MISSANDEI SHOULD HAVE DIED IN THE CRYPTS FOR NO REASON, GIVING DANY A REASON TO HATE CERSEI THAT ISN’T TRULY CONTRIVED! IT’S SO OBVIOUS!
Oof, the TRoS remark hurts.
The Last Jedi represents the very same problem that GoT had with S8. In an attempt to subvert expectations, Rian Johnson turned Snoke into a meaningless plot device and especially given the fact that there was ominous backstory established with the character, your assessment of the Night King could be applied even in the context of the way the character of Snoke was poorly handled by Rian Johnson.
"Plot Device" implies that he had some impact on the plot.
"All the missed opportunities" = All the things I wanted but they didn't give me.
People didn't want Daenerys to go insane and it's still a missed opportunity to do something interesting with the character because of how badly executed her turn was. So try again to dismiss criticism in a childish way.
The episode only one group of people loved. Arya fanboys
Really ? Arya wasn't anywhere near the top of my faves list & I absolutely loved this episode.
Richk097 0 You aren't a fan of good stories, are you?
Ineligible for what? Oh, you mean illegible.
oopsie haha, that is what I meant. Recording V/O is hard.
You're being far too nice with the Last Jedi, dude! They don't deserve it, quite honestly. Kylo may be "dynamic", but as villains go he is currently the least intimidating one in any Star wars movie. You make the comparison that GoT killed off Joffrey to set up Tywin, but TLJ did the very opposite. It's been clearly established already that Rey is Kylos superior in everything. As it stands, they have nowhere to go with him as the main villain. Seriously, defending those story choices is not a hill worth dying on.
I had some other ideas of how they could have done it but, man you just thought of a way that would not make the show longer. And if those money-grabbing shits of producers actually thought for 10 seconds they could have done the same. They did it for 6, 7 seasons before this shit happened. A simple idea that would have worked out and made a show better. BTW talking about Misandei's death and Denerises change.