JONI MITCHELL FIRST TIME COUPLE REACTION to Song for Sharon💖SHE IS SUCH A BEAUTIFUL POET!
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- čas přidán 20. 08. 2024
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#jonimitchell
Everything on this record is perfect. This album would be fantastic if it was just an instrumental one. Adding that voice and those lyrics?
And can I just say for the record regarding modern music's best songwriter:
It's Joni over Dylan every day. She's a better lyricist, singer and musician. And she even paints most of her record covers.
There will never be anyone like Joni ever again.
You know what? That kind of comparison is IDIOTIC! Just enjoy the genius of both of them. Damn.
"Song for Sharon" is my favorite Joni song. I have been listening to Hejira since it came out, and have listened to this thousands of time. It tells the story, it fleshes out the themes of her life of authenticity, heartbreak, illusion, joy, love, infatuation, desire; in one song it explains almost everything. Rather than the songs on Blue which paints these pictures of darkness, lightness, pain; Hejira puts these scenes into an evolving landscape. And like the minimal landscape of rural Alberta plains, the musical setting of this song is minimal. But at times (mostly through background vocals but also through the occasional stunning line ("she was just shaking of futility / or punishing somebody") a soul sudder floors me. Joni Mitchell, for inventing a lyrical confessional songwriting style that is so honest and expresses such 100% pure authenticity, inventing something that no one else could ever touch, just like Dylan, Joni deserves a Nobel Prize for Poetry. This comes from me, an academic poetry PhD. But her listeners already know this.
After I reread what I wrote: I was not putting down blue at all. It is a Masterpiece of Masterpieces and I have listened to to thousands of times. All I'm saying is that it is doing something different, something authentic to the Joni of those times.
Once you've been listening to her music for 40 years + the lyrics & music become imprinted in the old grey matter. I can literally walk around doing chores at my house and be singing songs from Court and Spark or Hissing of Summer Lawns in my head.
That Joni is back on Spotify is like christmas
I remember when Song for Sharon was getting saturation airplay. "Love's a repetitious danger you'd think I'd be accustomed to. Well I do accept the changes. At least better than I used to do." These lyrics are pure genius. What a beautiful song
I didn’t even know there was a time when this song got saturated airplay! It really did? It’s so long for radio!
@@JohnParadise-xj1mi AOR was a thing when I was a teen and radio stations were willing to experiment with music like this. It was magic
I always say that Hejira is the peak of Joni's songwriting, and an absolute masterpiece in the history of music. It's my favourite album, ever.
There are so many layers, musically and lyrically, something new to discover each time you listen to it, and Song for Sharon is a clear example of it.
I would love if you could react to Edith and the Kingpin. It's from Hissing of Summer Lawns, the album before Hejira.
Edith is a miracle of engineering, the production is astonishing. Although the whole Hissing album is beautifully produced, I dare say that Edith is unique in the whole Joni catalogue, and I am sure you'll love it.
The live version on Shadows and Light (there's a video on YT) with Jaco on the bass is equally mesmerising, Joni tickling the guitar strings being particularly hypnotising.
I still prefer the elegant and lush studio version.
Edith And The Kingpin is a big favourite of mine - so I hope your request pays off.
She throws off metaphors like they were cotton candy. Almost frightening, how good and accurate she is on this album.
@@alanparsonsfan Out of the fire like catholic saints
There is so much going on in this track that once is just not enough. You need at least a dozen listens before you really begin to appreciate it all. That's why Joni is so special.
Singer-songwriter Joni Mitchell will be presented Wednesday night (tonight!!) with the Library of Congress Gershwin Prize for Popular Song. The award is for influence, impact and achievement in popular song. I think it should air on PBS on March 31st.
Thanks for that info. I'm making a note to look for the show on PBS. These shows are always outstanding.
Joni is so multi tallented she even does her own backing vocals!
I got Hejira as a christmas gift from my parents in 1976. For the rest of the year I inhaled the album. True musical magic for me. And you were right, I always listened with the lyrics printed in the album.
Thank you and have fun during the next 20 listens, or more?
But I think it's best digested as a full album.
Love from Germany
I listened to the entire Hejira album the other night. My favorite Joni Mitchell album, which is saying a lot. Song for Sharon is a great song. The best way to enjoy Hejira is to listen to it as a whole in one sitting.
Thank you my beautiful young sista. I saw the power and goodness Joni gave to us on in your eyes. I'mma 72 year old Bi-Racial man who got to see Joni. Her performance at the Greek Theater Berkeley was a highlight. My all time Fav. You-all Rock, especially you Sista, rayray 🤙🤘✌️✊👍😉
Probably my all time favorite of Joni's, amongst so many. What a layered artist.... she's a master. ❤
For more great Joni lyrics try 'Edith and the Kingpin' or 'Shades of Scarlett Conquering'.
Joni's lyrics are to die for!!
Hejira has long been my favourite album, almost since I first heard it nearly forty years ago. It rewards endless listens, both musically and lyrically. The title song is just about my favourite song of all time; Song For Sharon is pretty close too. There's some real alchemy at play here; the song doesn't develop musically beyond the first verse - there's no chorus and no middle 8, just the same set of chords, and what gorgeous chords they are too. Picked out on Joni's superbly recorded guitar, they are the framework over which are draped three other instruments. The first of these is of course Joni's voice, which plays fast and loose with meter and rhythm, circling around the beat, and swooping and soaring around the melody like the black crow of one of the other songs on the album. Then there's the "rhythm section" - although that's not really what they are here. The rhythm section is Joni's guitar, constant throughout, with Max Bennett's nimble bass guitar doing subtle wonders, and John Guerin's exquisitely subtle and delicate brushed drums providing endless little variations.
As for the words, they are... a lot. I mean obviously it's a masterpiece. Just to take one example, the line Lex mentions about getting first the kisses and then the tears is already great - but it's even better when you realise that it's a callback to a previous verse:
"When we were kids in maidstone, Sharon
I went to every wedding in that little town
To see the tears and the kisses
And the pretty lady in the white lace wedding gown"
That's something I certainly wouldn't have picked up on a first listen. Incredibly lyric writing. I won't bang on at too much length, but one other quatrain stands out:
"A woman i knew just drowned herself
The well was deep and muddy
She was just shaking off futility
Or punishing somebody"
My *GOD* .
Joni was/is a phenomenal composer. Her lyrics portray so much imagery. My absolute favorite artist.
When but a wee lad, I would oft' find myself inspecting the libraries of books and music in sundry friendly domiciles...and erudite and stately Miss Mitchell was invariably ubiquitous amongst the college cohort...along with Gentle Giant, and others, where more processing is required both verbally and musically. Joni is a double treasure because her music is as genius as is her lyric. As such, one has to go wideband and holistic, and relegate details to future listenings. Pre-reading is the perfect solution. My own favorite of hers is "Circle Game", about the circles of life, and not unlike Paul Anka's "Times of Your Life" which was so pretty Kodak made it into a commercial. The live version on "Miles of Aisles" is classic. She starts by saying that "No one ever asked Van Gogh to 'paint A Starry Night again, man'"...and the seasons, they go 'round and 'round, and the painted pony goes up and down. We're riding on the carousel of life, you see. A circle game, with ever bigger circles. Peace and love. And more Joni, more circles.
"Carousel of time"🙂 I've performed this one many a time!
Relationships..... the one you two have is rare. Enjoy ~ As far as Joni and her non relationship ~ she did, and will continue to have a relationship with millions of people. Her music and art will reach the hearts of millions. I know it's not the same as that one special person in life ~ I wonder how she sees it as she ages.
"18 bucks went up in smoke." One of the greats, of course.
Actually, Max Bennett played bass on this track, but it is in the Jaco style. Maybe Jaco couldn't make it when they cut this.
Exactly
_Song for Sharon_ is yet another example of Joni's songwriting prowess. It's confessional and intimate and she draws you right into her personal experiences; letting you into a secret place, and experience emotions you might not have ever experienced, but yet somehow come to understand after hearing everything. It's a stripped-down song, really dominated by the amazing bass-playing, because how much embellishment does this song really need?
I was not reading the lyrics the first time I listened to it, but I do remember smiling when I heard her sing: "I went to Staten Island, Sharon, to buy myself a maaaan-dolin" because at first blush, you think she's looking for another _man_ (and she probably is, anyway), but the way she turned it a the last moment to "mandolin" was amusing to me, for some reason.
Thanks for this reaction. Hopefully you react to the titular track at some point from this album, and then other beauties like _Edith and the Kingpin_ from _The Hissing of Summer Lawns_ , and _Jericho_ from _Don Juan's Reckless Daughter_ .
Great stuff. Hejira is the pinnacle of the American singer-songwriter genre (along with Dylan's album Blood on the Tracks). Stunning combination of poetic lyrics and musical accompaniment.
She’s Canadian not American
@@user-cm8dm7jq1j Yes, but the genre is American.
@@user-cm8dm7jq1j Canada is in North America...Brazilians are Americans
As a loonnnggg-time Joni fan, I've come to think Song for Sharon is the ultimate Joni song. It just sums up her life and inner experience and is a captivating narrative.
She’s such a musical sage! Just elegance and wisdom in her writing and her voice is as soft as smoke 💨 ❤
So glad you finally did more joni, please do more 🙏❤
Mesmerising
Hejira is the apex of Joni's musical career for those fans who are not big fans of folk music. Her voice has matured, and she's lost that annoying trill she favored in her younger days. I've always felt that the overall theme of love gained, or love lost, hits home for everyone who has ever pursued or been pursued on love's playing field.
I agree. I will say that I don’t find that trill on Blue, my first favorite album.
Her voice has lost the trill, but it has become annoying and grating in new ways
Could not agree more. Hejira is the most beautiful and haunting of her works. What life is really like on the road, as I so well know....
Song for Sharon is even more magnificent with headphones
This was the song that deeply connected me to Hejira. I was transfixed by this song. I love the whole album, but this song opened my ears, big-time. ❤
Max Bennett (Bass), and John Guerin( Drums) are outstanding on this track.
Joni could write songs that could make a horse weep...,You have to react to the track ''Paprika plains'' ......amazing musical landscapes she creates every time. Like your channel. best of luck and good wishes from London, UK.
Lovely, thank you! She's an icon.
Excellent request. I love, like Bob Dylan did so often, how so many of her lyrics have double (or more) meanings. An example: But the ceremony of the bells and lace still “veils” this reckless fool here.
Every comment here is exactly the way I feel about Joni and about his song in particular. I do also have a soft spot in my heart for her debut album, Song to a Seagull. It is a lush, gorgeous concept album of just her guitar and voice for the most part. Produced by David Crosby, who took some flak for the production but I don't think her voice has ever sounded so perfectly recorded as what he accomplished on that record. All the songs are great but my favorites are Nathan LaFraneer, The Pirate of Pennance, and The Dawntreader. Hauntingly beautiful.
Music first, lyrics later, even for Joni!! I didn't speak English when i was 15, anyway not well enough to uncover the meanings of her lyrics, and yet, i fell under the spell of Hissing of Summer Lawns and Hejira. They're growers, like many Joni albums. The words' powers eventually add to the music's. For now, just let it flow! (Jaco isn't playing on this track, it's the excellent Max Bennett. If you want more Jaco, try the title track or Refuge of the Roads.)
Or my favorite, "Black Crow!"
Joni is a genius. Listening to her is addictive and absorbing. I've spent weeks of my life listening to and thinking about nothing else musically but her work. This song really speaks to me of being someone who preferred to travel lightly through life but then found love. But you can never take it for granted, it must be worked at.
I also went to Staten Island to by a mandolin, at the same store Joni went to... the late, iconic Mandolin Brothers
Sublime and beautiful.
What a great reaction! Talking from the heart about music, lyrics and love. You are so lucky to have each other; I'm sure you will never take each other for granted! Maybe it's because I have heard Joni's songs so many times over the years, but I find that, because she is such a wonderful singer, I can hear all her lyrics clearly while still appreciating the nuances of the music. Mind you, she is the greatest songwriter of the modern music era. There are so many songs of hers to react to, and in my mind I have at least 5 marathons lined up! 'Hejira' was the climax to an incredible trio of jazz infused albums, following on from 'Court and Spark' and 'The Hissing of Summer Lawns'. But then that fails to include not only 'Blue' but its underrated follow up 'For The Roses'. And then there's 'Don Juan's Reckless Daughter' which follows 'Hejira' and has Jaco playing 100% Jaco style! So much wonderful music! I'm getting out my Joni albums right now xx
Joni is the whole package. Such a great song on a spectacular album. Nice choice on taking on the lyrics first. It takes multiple listens to even scratch the surface. It’s all so perfectly packaged with content and flawless quality.
I love your love story!! You guys r so lucky to have each other! I have been hurt so much….. I give all my heart to someone and they would throw it all away….I love that u r best friends! It should start there really!❤❤
Peace and love from England 🏴 Teresa.❤
so glad Joni is back on spotify!!
I just noticed this, but You guys have the exact same hair😊😊😊🤪
How can you possibly love Joni, Neil Young, Metallica, Genesis and Yes?……. I don’t get it…. I thought I was the only one!
Such a diverse range of music, I/we love it all.
Those people who don’t love music are missing so much!
Joni is the pinnacle of singing songwriter. Nick you are so right that you try to listen to the words yet try to appreciate the music. I also listen to the music more for the first time or 2 and then especially pay attention to Joni’s lyrics because she has so much meaning in her lyrics!
In my opinion, Hejira is Joni's best album. I remember listening to this album on snowy days in the heart of winter and being completely enchanted. I was 16 when this came out and found it to be SO romantic. When I had a new girlfriend, I would listen to Joni and completely melt. Wonderful!
What a beautiful song. "Lyrically dense" is a great way to describe it. It's nice to hear a song that isn't in the traditional structure also. She's determined to just tell the story. "A woman I knew just drowned herself / The well was deep and muddy / She was just shaking off futility / Or punishing somebody." Was the protagonist at this point contemplating ending it all herself, or just illustrating how far the disappointment can push us?
Treasure of the song here love you guys
Love Joni Mitchell - she has the voice of an angel. Such a HUGE talent. More Joni please! Thanks so much for reacting to her.🧡
I find Such happiness & joy in Joni Mitchell singing.
So nice to see you reacting together 🫶🏻I am more interested in the lyrics listening to Joni the instruments are never overly complicated it’s all about the Vocals for me 🙏
This song is like a movie. It’s like a Woody Allen movie. Characters in the Woody Allen movie would say:
Dora says "Have children"
Mama and Betsy say "Find yourself a charity
Help the needy and the crippled or put some time into Ecology"
Well there's a wide wide world of noble causes
And lovely landscapes to discover
But all I really want to do right now
Is find another lover
'Hejira' is a masterpiece...Broad, deep, and brutally honest...
16:56 LOL.. The Hissing of Summer Lawns and the Hissing of NicknLex 😅 you two are adorable.
THE GODDESS of DEEPLY POWERFUL LYRICS ...what a melancholic story about the idealism of marriage. Her humility, metaphors and references are the best of any songwriter I know
Love when you guys make the "Szzzzzzz" sound, that's a stamp of approval. I do the same thing . I m a bassist
That's the sound of bacon frying, as it applies to music.
@@DexterD63 🥓🎶🎷👍🏼
My brain hears both. Music and lyrics. This is when you get the full and true experience. Not a problem for me.
Ok now tell me what music was actually played as in theory. Chords, scales, time etc
Very chill song that makes this album so dreamy. One of her best. Yes this is a long story and the lyrics are important.
Max Bennett (The Crusaders) on bass on Song for Sharon.
This song is all about disappointment and the tension and perhaps even despair that can consume one when you wish you had made other choices. I have some dark moments when I wish I hadn't chosen to be a musician, that my life would have been much easier and brought me more happiness if I had just settled into a secure job and committed to a loving companion. But who knows? disappointment may likely follow one through life irregardless of the choices..
You can also copy your albums to Itunes on a PC and then sync to your phone and then listen where ever you are.
It's called flanger with a short a and soft g. The term comes from a studio technique first used on a song called "The Big Hurt" in the early 60s. Two copies of a song were playing in perfect synch on two tape machines. For a split second, the engineer would gently touch the flange of one of the reels on one machine, which would cause the two tapes to go very slightly out of phase, causing the flanging effect. He would then alternate touching the flanges of the two machines, continuing the out of phase, "jet plane" effect. Two other songs that used the effect were "Itchicoo Park" and "Listen to the Music". I think it was Doc Seigal who first discovered the technique on "The Big Hurt". A flanger is an electronic device that creates the same effect artificially.
Some of these songs of Joni's don't seem to elicit tears or deep feelings, but they do eventually reach far underground. Then someday, you hear this song unexpectedly and it hits you like a ton of bricks. Then you know you love it more than you ever knew because it touched you where you really live. You know someone understands.
You two r my favorite reactors hands down!❤❤❤❤❤❤❤
18:33 By The Time I Get to Phoenix, OMG…. That is SUCH a sad but great song by Glen Campbell. 11 years! You two are solid and I love you both.
Interesting reaction: I have the opposite experience with Joni - I just can’t focus on her lyrics until after I have listened to at least once. I have tried, to even read the lyrics while listening, and they just go away. I can only hear her music the first time. I recommend that way with her in general. Even though the lyrics are so important. But everyone’s different.
It's either a flanger (soft g- like a j) or a chorus which was available by 76.
If you look up the album on Wikipedia, there's quite a bit of information on the recording of the album, the backgrounds to the songs, and which four songs she had Jaco overdub the bass on after the initial recording.
Great pick JK! I agree with Nick music is first lyrics second. I mean come on this is a song after all not a book. Now this being a vocal when I say music that also includes the actual singing the voice as an instrument. That being said you can then memorize all the lyrics. Lastly Lex 🥰 repeat after me Laundries not Diaries 😂
😂 OMG and I wondered if I had finally said it right!!
@@NicknLex You’ll get it eventually 😂
You should try a Laura Nyro song. She lived from 1947-1997. Her songs include Wedding Bell Blues, And When I Die, Eli's Coming, Stoned Soul Picnic, Sweet Blindness, Save The Country, Poverty Train. She composed, and many of the backgrounds were her, as she produced some of her own albums.
"Joni’s never a 1-time listen." -Lex
Exactly. It would be very interesting to hear both of your reactions after a few more listens to this marvelous recording.
When Hejira was first released, it became clear to me how Joni weaves in her visual acuity with her intense powers of observation about the human condition. One of my favorite lyrical passages of hers is from the song Refuge of the Road. She starts out micro-focused on a photograph on a calendar hanging in a service station, but it’s a photo of the Earth taken from the Moon… so visually she instantly zooms way out, where she analyzes how trivial our human trials seem when viewed from so far away. In one short passage she creates a back and forth, visually and analytically. So observant and perceptive… and rather profound.
“In a highway service station
Over the month of June
Was a photograph of the earth
Taken coming back from the moon
And you couldn't see a city
On that marbled bowling ball
Or a forest or a highway
Or me here, least of alL”
Joni Mitchell put her money where her mouth is and pulled her music from Spotify because that's what you do when you're a music icon.
The Jaco riff is addictive. She's receiving the Gershwin Prize tonight in Washington DC. The award concert performance with tributes by Annie Lennox, Brandi Carlisle, etc will be broadcast on March 31 on PBS. This song is all about layering and background vocals. Eighteen bucks went up in smoke! I was walking down Prince Street in SOHO in 1976 when this came on the radio. Freshman year at NYU. So, all the NYC references were relative to my life. Try "Borderline" of Turbulent Indigo or "Passion Play" off Night Ride Home..... or bookend the two versions of "Both Sides Now" the 2007 version and the 1972 version to discover the artistic growth. She's an artist's artist.
I’m not familiar with the Gershwin prize. Certainly enjoyed the Kennedy Center Honors for her with Brandi. I am so grateful to Brandi Carlisle for keeping Joni’s music out there and doing it so well….and getting Joni out again!
That is actually Max Bennett on bass, Jaco plays on other tracks.🙂
Hejira and The Hissing Of Summer Lawns albums both have this sort of dreamy, jazzy feel to them, definitely much different from Blue. My personal favorite though is her Court & Spark album. The arrangements on that LP are simply incredible. Treat yourselves sometime to Down To You from that LP. It's amazing. Thanks for sharing this one, N&L. 🙂
Joni has recently dropped a remaster of this great song...A bit different mix, but oh, what a singular talent!
Thanks for the heads up!
This was my first Joni Mitchell album and I became instantly hooked. This is such beautiful poetry and fabulous music.
'A Woman I knew just drowned herself - see singer/songwriter Jackson Browne.
With my bass in hand, I am learning this Joni tune (new for my song list) while I watch you enjoy it.🎸
Love to hear that!!! Love the bass on this track!!
Both sides now next!!!
Historical Tidbit: The first line "Went to Staten Island Sharon, Buy myself a mandolin" is a reference to the now closed famous Mandolin Brothers Store on Staten Island.
Oh, those first chords….strumming… so Hejira…. So transporting to me. Totally agree with you on needing at least two listens to take in both lyrics and instruments. That said, it’s so worth it.
Just a heads up. That’s Max Bennett on bass, and it sounds so good. Joni’s guitar sound is incredible too.
You are correct sir.
Did Jaco only tour the album but was not on it?
@@helenespaulding7562 No he actually plays on several of the songs on the album but his parts were overdubbed on the original recording.
@@helenespaulding7562 Jaco is on 4 tracks on Hejira (Coyote, Hejira. Black Crow, Refuge of the Roads), Max Bennett on 2 (Song for Sharon, Furry Sings the Blues), Chuck Domanico on 1 (Blue Motel Room). Amelia and A Strange Boy have no bass (but my goodness does Larry Carlton contribute some nice guitar)
In your Kraan reaction you were asked about good repetetive and bad repetetive - in Joni's song I love the good repetitive of the guitar ... next to all other good things you can say about this song ❤😄🤘
Lex is getting to be a regular around here!😄
When this album came out I was in college and working, too, so I never sat down with the album and read the lyrics like I had when I was younger. But I adored the new sounds, or atmospheres, as some have said, that she created on this album. I must admit, this is my first listen to this song with the lyrics in front of me, and they made me love the song even more! Thank you, JK, and also Nick and Alexia for this gift today. It is always wonderful to see you both reacting and discussing the music together, and your close relationship makes the viewing even sweeter! I look forward to more Joni- how about a full album Patreon reaction to Court and Spark??
🎵❤️🎵 Debbie
You’re welcome! And I made the same suggestion about Court and Spark. Absolutely!
A wonderful Joni video to watch is her live in studio performance of her beautiful song, Woodstock. Amazing!!
She's a monumental lyricist - as if her musical talent wasn't enough.
Hey Nick and Lex , hope you have a good day 😀
This is from one of the only two albums released in the ‘70s that I feel are on par with Steely Dan’s work from that period. The other is also one of hers, _Blue._ More Joni, please!
So glad you were able to respond together! Can you imagine dealing with this song all alone? And thank you for taking my gentle suggestion of looking at the lyrics for a change. They are the dominant feature here, no doubt. It resulted in a very heartfelt discussion! This song is full of wisdom. And occasional humor - I loved your laughs on “18 bucks went up in smoke.” Great reaction!
Pure class - Only Joni
A case of YOu is an awesome song by Joni and a comparison of both sides now when she first sang it to her rendition 40 years later is worth a listen
I like all Joni Mitchell but I would suggest reviewing Ladies of the Canyon and Urge for Going. Songs to Aging Children Come ..I think those are some of her best pieces of work although I really like My Old Man.
2:08 Her removal of the catalog from Spotify was devastating to me. It was a source of joy for sure.
Yes, it was difficult, but I was so proud of her for it.
Having hearing problems all my life, I ALWAYS read the lyrics. Now I've got hearing aids with Bluetooth and the listening experience is expanded. I still read the lyrics, though.
Her album Hissing of Summer Lawns has sooooo many incredible poems
Lex, you started with Blue and you said that you have enjoyed discovering older Joni as her voice got deeper etc. have you ever gone back to the beginning? To her very first album? It always seems to get shunted aside by the huge masterpieces. But it was my introduction to Joni, and probably because of that has continued to be my favorite. Her voice is pure crystal and so high and clear. The album is called Song to a Seagull. And the title song is my all-time favorite of hers. The melodic line is just beautiful.
It is a beautiful album, produced by David Crosby (R.I.P.)
@@debrabrabenec I did not know that. Do you know if he produced any others of hers?
@@helenespaulding7562 No, just that one. They were a couple then, and he helped her get a record contract and then produced the album.
@@debrabrabenec and she dumped him. Yeah. Joni had (has?) a very restless soul, which makes long-term relationships problematic. Freedom and art were her guiding stars. Great for us. Hard to live that life though. Always leaving, one way or another.
I think of her, in that restless way, as the female equivalent of Robert Plant.
@@helenespaulding7562Crosby cheated on her multiple times
For a completely different up-tempo Joni experience check out Raised on Robbery.
Listen to Joan Baez: fare thee well. Or Mary Hamilton