Why weren't Winchester 1873 Rifles Chambered for 45 Colt in the 19th Century?
Vložit
- čas přidán 25. 08. 2024
- I am often asked why Winchester lever action rifles weren’t chambered for the .45 Colt round in the 19th century.
They wonder this because modern-made reproductions of those rifles are often chambered for the .45 Colt cartridge today.
In this video I’ll tell you the reason for that.
Mike Beliveau links:
Patreon - / duelist
Website - mikebeliveau.com/
I asked the same question about 30 yrs ago when I was a sportsman's club brat....the silver haired men I hung out with explained to me about the way things were made. Different rim sizes and the like. You've done a wonderful job explaining this. No one had an example cartridge to show me then....I got crude drawings on scrap paper. I miss those days.....of hanging out with the silver haired men. Thanks Mike.
I miss those old guys, too. I'm not very far from being one now!
@@adrianfirewalker4183 I wish I had my silver
hair back again!
You'll have silver hair soon enough
Rain. Water. Power.
Yes, 45 years ago, hanging out at the gun clubs with guys who hunted and shot with Hemingway, Bing Crosby, et al. Wish they were still alive.
I can definitely verify the information about the copper vs. brass cases (not that I have any reason to doubt you). When I purchased my original 1873 Springfield rifle back in the late 1980's, after I had cleaned it up, I tried to chamber an empty case to check for length, and couldn't get the case to chamber, I thought maybe the modern case was too long, so I started shortening it a little at a time, but still couldn't get it to chamber, but I couldn't see any obstruction in the chamber. A gunsmith friend of mine thought maybe it was hardened black powder in the chamber, so he put a .45 caliber phosphor bronze cleaning brush on a long cleaning rod, and chucked it in a drill, and started "cleaning" the chamber. About ten seconds later, when he pushed the brush through the chamber into the receiver, there was the headless body of a copper case stuck to it. After that, rounds chambered just fine. Imagine that!
Great story!
Flawless explanation , as I always expect - and get - from you ! I would add as further proof that the original 45 colt was designed to be extracted by the rod , (so no large rim was needed) , that things got complicated with the New Service revolver , cases could slip past the star extractor , and that is why the Army had the 1909 cartridge designed with a wider rim. ( they were too large to fit in a SAA cylinder , though )
As a side note , the Schofield 45 , designed also for a star extractor has a wider rim too.
Happy Thanksgiving !!
Thank! I’m glad you enjoyed it.
Finally, someone well versed enough in gunnery to leave the rifle on the shoulder while levering in a new round. Well done, and thanks for the lesson.
I guess you didn't watch 20:10-20:44 LMFAO
@@telesniper2 Your screen name tells more than you comment. There was somebody in this video who did it right.
@@Oldclimber1 Still didn't watch it, huh? LMFAO
@@telesniper2 Yeah, I did. But that was only part of the video. And he was talking more than shooting. So was he "at it" in shooting, as if he were shooting at a a deer ? Hardly,, but you would be right, in that bad habits are hard to break when it counts. Conceded.
I think everyone leave the rifle on the shoulder except for brand new shooters with no one to instruct them.
Good video, Mike. When I shot CAS, I was a stickler for authentic calibers of the period. Thus My 1894 Marlin in 38/40 was my go to rifle. It was made in 1894. My pistols (Ruger Vaqueros) started life as 40 S & W's that I had punched out to 38/40.. Made for neat and authentic package.
)
Very beautiful rifle Mike. I had no idea the 45 colt round was different back then. Like Mom always said "Its the little things that make a difference!" Immediate thumbs up thanks Mike
Thanks Gary!
Yes,I didn't know that either.
After sighting in at 60 feet, I could easily cover 5 shots with a nickel czcams.com/users/postUgkxQt2uORDRfFOVSrO4idv4B90ThT6EOnEL ! Truly a pleasure to shoot! Scope was easy to adjust for eye relief. Only problem the varmints must have seen it delivered lol!Update: So impressed with shot groups at 30 yards I purchased a Hammers 3×9 with adjustable Objective scope! Now a true nail driver!
It took a while to get there, but your reasons for the 1873 using the proper repeating cartridges instead of 45 Colt were spot on.
Colt did have their 44 WCF version (44 CLMR) as did Marlin and went the extra step of using the smaller size primer that was considered safer in the tubular magazine.
Thanks Mike, that was a very clear and concise explanation of both of these subjects. It will be nice to have this video as a resource for those noobs to the subject for the answers to these questions. I had a long and unplaned path to a blackpowder 44 40 '66 replica and was flabbergasted with the cleanliness of fired 44 40 cases over the 44spcs that I had used previously. It made a drastic difference in the time I spent cleaning not only the brass but the rifle's action too. I went from totally disassembling the action every other time out to once a year or more. That time savings is well worth the cost of the occasional crushed case from reloading.
My 1866 is also a .44 Spl, and I completely agree with your observations.
This has been a very welcome history lesson about an iconic firearm. Thank you for sharing your obvious insights.
Always a comfort and an interesting lesson from Mr. Belivieu. 🇺🇸
Just as adaptable today as then. 22 cal., 38/357, 44 special/mag. Fun to shoot, and to use to defend yourself.
I personally found that Magtech brass is the best at sealing, even with 18 grains of blackpowder. I've been shooting with that load over 10 years now in Cowboy action with my 1892 Rossi rifle. Most 45 Colt dies size the brass too much, so I had my sizer reamed out a little (they still fit my Vaquero's)
With all that said, the 44-40 is still a better rifle round though...
Mike, your lever action self defense video is one of my favorites you’ve done! Perhaps a whole video on Charles Askins? I’ve went and learned what i could because of your vid. I wish “unrepentant sinner” wasn’t so expensive and hard to find.
I'll see if I can pull one together on Charlie
Don't forget Skeeter Skelton and Elmer Keith.
@@tomcurran1538 I'll never forget those guys, but it would have been pretty hard for me to call them up for help. Mike V. is still among the living.
every time I watch one of these videos it makes me want to buy another lever gun, but then I look at may bank account and realize that may not happen for a while. Really love that Uberti 44-40 you have Mike, very beautiful piece of craftsmanship. And as always thank you for the insight on firearms technology then and now. I really enjoy learning from you, and watching you shoot these guns!
Excellent video. I would love to see you do a video on those tricks of reloading the 44-40 that you mention. Thanks Mike.
So glad you covered this. I too prefer the 44-40 for all the reasons you gave. I find it more accurate and cleaner to shoot. It does not have the blow back problem that an unnecked cartridge does. Great video Mike. Made my day.
Lots of guys in SASS use the 44-40 for those reasons
Great and informative video. My preference is 45 colt, since the mid 80's.
I like your outfit, it looks great on you.
Cheers !!
It's my understanding that the 45 Colt ammunition back in the day was not crimped tight enough for a tubular magazine. Thus, with all the bouncing and banging going on while on horse back and concussions from firing the gun, the bullets would be pushed back in the casings making the bullet shorten up in the magazine and jamming when two bullets at once were introduced on to the lifter. That was the reason for the extra crimp behind the bullet on 44-40 cartridges to keep that from happening. I could be wrong, but that is what I heard.
Those old copper cartridges are really cool looking.
Thanks Mike. It's nice to hear the correct history regarding the .44 WCF vs. .45 Colt. I'm still shooting an original 1892 in 38-40 with a Colt SA companion revolver. Reloading has become a lot more interesting since introduction of the 10mm pistols which use the same .400 diameter projectiles, with many weights and bullet types.
Nice video Mike! Although I've seen copper cartridges from the past, I never knew that the .45 Colt started life utilizing a copper case, not to mention such a miniscule rim. I guess we (or I) always assumed that the cartridges back in the day, are basically the same as we have today. But that's obviously not the case. (No pun intended of course) lol.
Thanks! I'm glad you enjoyed it.
I stumbled across your channel 8 years ago. Love how you present the information when describing details. Definitely learn a lot.
Thank! I’m glad you enjoyed it.
Get explanation! Marshall Williams Esq, who introduced me to IPSC and SASS in the 80’s taught me this lesson in Virginia. Job well done Mike!
Great explanation…fat thumbed that one
As always. A very enjoyable, informative video. I have several of both the 73’s and the 92’s. Mostly in 45 Colt, one or two in 357
I shoot my cowboy loads in my 73’s and the Hotter loads in my 92’s. They are just plain fun.
The original copper 45lc had a very small rim like the 44 Colt did. Not until 1882 was the 45lc redesign with a bigger rim so the Army could use the M1882 cartridge in both the 1973 SAA and the Schofield still in service with the Army so they did have two types ammo to supply. We had a 32-20 and a 22cal as kid on the farm in the 50's of 60's.
Thank you for that comparison. My Uberti Charcoal Blue 7th Calvary Colt SAA is chambered for 45 Colt so I will probably buy an Winchester 1873 Carbine to match it. However, I'm little saddened that the 45 Colt of today is not what it was in the 1800s. I do appreciate the ease of using the modern casing and I use wonder wads to help compress my loads of FFFg and 255 gr bullets in my Colt SSA. You're right. It does foul the action after about 10 shots.
Thanks! I’m glad you enjoyed it. Do you use big lube bullets and black powder specific lube?
I remember reading that Winchester wanted to share a cartridge between the 73 Winchester and 73 Colt, just like they did between the 44 Henry cartridge that was used in so many Colt percussion conversion revolvers. Colt turned them down because they literally couldn't make a wider rimmed cartridge that would fit into the their 73 cylinders because the original 73 Colts were built on the same machinery as the 1860 Army model, and that machinery was set up to only form a cylinder that was too small to fit a larger rimmed case. They only fixed that later on when they got new machinery to make the Frontier model, which could fit 44 WCF.
Happy Thanksgiving. Thank you for your explanation. 1873 was quite the year for rifle & revolver designs. I can imagine this question came up over a few camp fires & counter tops back then, too.
Thank! I’m glad you enjoyed it.
Happy thanksgiving!🦃🍁🍽. Great video! Maybe you can do a video on the 45 70!!!!
I'll try to get one made this Winter
I just love the quality and attention to every detail. I could read for day and not get the info you provide in 20 min. Thanks Mike !!
Thank! I’m glad you enjoyed it.
Nice job Mike. There's a lot more to the history of the original 45 Colt copper internally benet primed cartridge and its versions. Make a video on the cartridge birth and development, it's even more interesting than the Colt SAA it was developed for.👍
That IS a beautiful gun! Those original .45lc cartridges are wild! It looks like those modern loads are more like a semi-rimless case.
Thank you. This is something I've always wondered about. Nice shooting, too. My favorite part of the video, though, was your mention of Mr. Venturino. I've been reading articles written by both of you for almost 20 years. I've come away from those articles equally informed and entertained, no matter which Mike was writing. Cheers, and happy belated birthday.
Thanks!
Where I live, you cannot even get 44-40, and components have been a hard time finding. That's the reason I ended up getting a 45 Colt, because I could actually find ammo last year
I often wondered this myself. My thinking was that you'd only have to buy 1 chambering for both. Those are some beautiful rifles you have there!
Great video as always, I researched this thoroughly pre internet (1990 or so)and it took alot of magazine articles and footnotes in loading manuals to piece it together
Thanks! I'm glad you enjoyed it.
Having different calibers can be a good thing, never know what's going to be on sale, or conversely in short supply
Mr. Beliveau sir always a comfort and a pleasure listening to your logic and expertise. 🇺🇸
Great video Mike. I love the look of "Duelist Den" on an overcast, late fall day. My wife let me watch this one because I told her "I already own that rifle". I mostly load smokeless in my 44-40 but I have tried BP (Goex 2f) a couple of times. With black powder it seemed to foul up so quickly it kind of took most of the fun away. How many BP shots can you get through yours before it loses all accuracy? Part of the problem is the bullet doesn't hold a lot of lube. Any tips?
I use Big-Lube bullets. The 200-grain mold is called the Mav Dutchman. Dick Dastardly sells them. In experiments I have done with modern lubed bullets, accuracy is completely gone after 10 rounds. You can shoot big-lube bullets all day.
You also might try an over powder wad in the case, between the powder and the bullet. I shoot a .50 caliber Hawken rifle and ever since I started using an over powder wad, I get less fouling, and also the barrel leads up much slower since the fire from the powder is no longer actually coming into contact with the bullet. Plus I worked my load down till it all burns in the barrel.
Another great video Mike! I love the detail you put into the research and the video.
Thanks! I'm glad you enjoyed it.
Thank you for another great video I'm sure glad I stumbled onto your channel I'm looking forward to watching all of your videos.
Great video. I love those old Winchester rifles. I have been reading gun articles by the 2 Mike's longer then I card to remember. Iam 56 now so that's been a long time.
I certainly appreciate it, and I’m sure Mike V. does too.
I love the 44WCF and 45 Colt I have taken deer at short range 60 yards with both. They are great old cartridges.
They sure are!
Fascinating as ever Mike, I’m using a Chiappa 44.40 1892, and love the history of the old West. Greetings from England, and happy thanksgiving 👍🏻
Thanks! I’m glad you enjoyed it.
Never knew that. Thanks. Had an original Marlin 1894 in 44-40. I never have seen an original .45 cartridge.
Great video on this topic, Win-Mod 1873. Like you, I have several of each in both calibers, .44 WCF & .45 Colt, an original 1873 in .44 WCF, manufactured in 1892. I enjoy my 73s in 44 WCF the best, especially as Bp lever rifles. Thank you for this highly informative video, Mike. Sincerely yours, Montana Kid Hammer SASS 6476-Patron
Great answer for something I always wondered. Incidentally, 7.5 grains of Unique is my favorite .44 Mag plinking load (240 gr. lswc).
Another great video. Thanks for the history lesson!
Thank! I’m glad you enjoyed it.
I love to listen to this knowledgeable man talk, very entertaining!
First of all Happy Thanksgiving. I've always heard it had something to do with the military regarding the 45 Colt and now I know. Thanks again for the great informative video. Keep'em comin !!
Thank! I’m glad you enjoyed it.
Informative and Enjoyable As Always ! Thanks !.....and Merry Christmas !
Merry Christmas to you as well.
The army refused to purchase the lever action as they thought it was an ammunition burner. Levers used in the civil war were henry rifles that the men purchased themselves.
The Spencer carbines were lever action and were issued to US troops. The Henry rifle was simply too delicate for military use
Thought there was one UScalvary unit *issued Henry’s, but that could have been self-supported. I would certainly rather have fielded “that damn rifle that they load on Sunday and shoot all week.”
Iy is ironic that post war studies found that troops armed with repeaters used LESS rounds per enemy casualty because they did not have to open fire at longer ranges where few rounds hit.
Thanks for making this video Mike. I have always wondered about this topic. Over the years I have looked at modern 45 colt cases and thought if they work in a reloading press why not a rifle. But after seeing the 19th century case, it was painfully obvious. Happy Thanksgiving.
Thank! I’m glad you enjoyed it.
Great presentation and shooting. Your grandkids are gonna love these one day...
Mike, Thank you very much. Does the other Mike have a you tube channel? Have a blessed week.
Back in the day, the Colt rim was too small to work properly. The Colt rim today is larger and works just fine in lever actions.
I prefer 38-40. I knew the answers to the 45 Colt chambering but I still don't understand why Winchester and Marlin didn't chamber the modern magnums ASAP. 357 mag came out in '35, 44 mag in '55, and 41 mag in '64.
Absolutely beautiful rifle ! Fascinating history lesson once again ! Thanks so much!
Thank! I’m glad you enjoyed it.
I really enjoy what you do. You are so eloquent on the subject and so proficient at shooting, I'm envious. But I work daily to get better. Thank you so much. 👌🤠👍
I appreciate your honesty ! !
😎👍
Very good explanation and great shooting!!!
Thks. Pertinent info. Educated me about 44-40 cases. I've often wondered about the longing (whining) I used to read about some gun writer's lamentations for a 44-40 caliber.
Great video, great guns!! I knew basically why the old .45 colt wasn't used in rifles, but Mike's explanation was superb. I have been reading the other Mike's work since Skeeter Skelton was still writing for ST!!!
Zee y rfrom
Excellent explanation! I’ve been explaining it exactly the same way, since the ‘70’s. Mike V. Is a great guy. I first met him at a gun show in Bozeman, MT in the early ‘80’s. He got a kick out of my telling him that on the AFB I was a Small Arms Instructor at, they had plenty of funds to build the golf course, but not a cent to rehab the base firing range. Later in my career, I actually ran the ground weapons program for the whole Air Force, and found many ways to get much needed ranges built and or rehabbed! Funny how life works! I’ve shot .44 WCF since 1969…the best!
Steve Todd,
Thanks Steve, for taking care of our boys !
I know a fellow up in Kalispell that was assigned, as a Sargent, to run a base Army Pistol Range while in S. Korea. It was an open pit, basically, with pallets you stood on to stay out of the mud. Didn't help with the wind, rain, sleet, snow.
He had no assigned funds but was able to get some 4x4's, 2x4's, nails, etcetera from a project that had been cancelled. He built a small covered lean-to shooting building and the troops were well served. The Officers had to qualify with their .45 ACP', junior officers 1st followed by the senior officers. When the base Supply Officer ( Major ? ) saw the new covering he demanded to know who approved the construction and having never approved the wood purchase he accused the Sgt of stealing / misappropriation of Gov't funds. He wrote the Sgt up on those charges. The next day a few senior officers showed up to qualify, one of which was the Base Commanding Officer, and he was quite pleased to see the improvements and being able to shoot from under cover and ( mostly ) out of the elements. The Sgt mentioned that the Supply Officer wasn't as pleased and why the Major had him up on charges. The General glanced around at the structure for a few seconds and then said something to the effect of "Don't worry..." . The next day the Sgt recieved a phone call from the Supply Major saying he'd reconsidered, was dropping the charges, and anything for the troops, espically if it improved morale, he was all for. He was also alloting a small amount of funds per year to be used for upkeep / improvements at the pistol range.
He told me he'd felt bad about getting chewed out / accused of theft / wrote up on charges, but felt he'd done the right thing for the troops so it was worth. And then to have someone agree with him, charges dropped, an apology and the icing on the cake, a small budget to work with, well... he was quite pleased to have done the right thing by the troops. . . . .
Nice to see you again. Always a font of information. And excellent shooting for entertainment!
Thanks! I’m glad you enjoyed it.
Excellent explanation and presentation.
This sure answered a number of the questions I had, thanks loads.
Thanks! I'm glad you enjoyed it.
I've often wondered, now I know. Thank you.
Happy Thanksgiving Wade!
@@duelist1954 And a very Happy Thanksgiving to you and Misx Mary Pat as well.
I beleive this to be absolutly correct in my opinion. I once confussed the agreement between Colt and Winchester's gentelmans agreement to not produce rifles (Colt) and revolers ( Winchester) with the cartridge.
Wonderful authoritative video explaining a question I've had for a long time. Thanks Mike. Very glad to find your video channel, subscribed.
Black powder fouling with the straight wall case was what I understood the reason it was not chambered in .45 Colt.
Thank you for that great explanation. For the area that I live in it is difficult enough to find 45 colt ammunition, to look for 44 WCF in both a Colt SAA or in a Replica 1873 is near next to impossible. Yes, one could order the weapon on line, but the ammunition supply is even worse. Personally, I would love to have a pair of a Colt SAA and a 1873 in 44 WCF. Again, thanks for the great information and shooting fun.
Try finding 41 long Colt.
Excellent explanation, as always. Appreciate your being here and all that you teach. Interesting and entertaining.
Thanks! I'm glad you enjoyed it.
Good to see you out shooting Mike !
Thanks Mr. Bellevue for the content you make. It is informative and has the 'down the rabbit hole' context I think we all appreciate. Happy Thanksgiving to you and yours!
Thanks! I'm glad you enjoyed it.
TL;DW: The rim on the cartridge case was too short for the extractor to grab and eject. Also gentleman's agreement between Colt and Winchester to stay out of each others market similar to what cable companies do today.
Happy Thanksgiving Mike. Watched this while cooking the bird and as usual, you're a wealth of knowledge. I love learning the old history. Thanks for sharing and keep up the great content!
Thank! I’m glad you enjoyed it.
Thanks so much Mike for answering the mystery a lot us couldn't figure out !!
HUGE .44-40 fan here too!!
Thanks! I'm glad you enjoyed it.
your explanation about the .45 Colt not sealing the chamber, may explain why a Rossi Colt lighting clone, I bought could not be fired without the hot gases being felt full in your face when you fired. The gun was returned to Rossi for evaluation. They returned it,stating it is in perfect working order. I took it to the range and the problem continued, I tried hot loads as well as cowboy loads. Fortunately for me the gun shop was able to allow me to trade it for something else.
great video, always wondered why. thank you
Very interesting video!
My great grandad had an original Winchester 1892 and that's the only rifle he owned. He also had a double barrel shotgun that had Damascus barrels and he had a colt peacemaker with a 6" barrel. I never known him to hunt but he would get the "old Winchester" out and oil it now and then. My grandad, his son, had passed before he did and that's who the rifle was supposed to go to but after my great grandad's death I'm not sure who got it or his other guns. He did give me a really old uncle Henry pocket knife before his death in 1990. He was 98 years old.
Excellant analysis of how the evolution of metallic cartridges affected the chambering of 19th century firearms. I totally agree with your logic; you also filled in some missing links concerning rimmed, semi-rimmed, and rimless cartridge design that overlapped into the 20th century.
Love my 45 colt lever action rifle and single action revolver
Thank you Mike for an excellent explanation.
Numerous “explanations” have been given. Some applicable and some outrageous. By referencing the cartridges more than any patent; and, pointing out the Lightening and Burgess Colt products I hope this has been set to rest. I also agree that the .007” mouth obdurates much better than the .015” Colt mouth. While many praise the very slight bottleneck as sealing better; I also believe it is much more effective in regards to feeding ease.
Having said that, my Uberti Short Rifle is chambered in 45 as is my 92 and Pistoleros. Cowboy, a great sport.
Arty Redleg
Hey Dude
Nice shooting , thanks for your time and knowledge putting this video together , I love Winchester lever action rifles , I have a collection of 92s and 94s from 25/20 - 44/40 everyone of them is a real buzz to shoot , most ammo and reloading supplies for them is getting hard to find over here , I do reload myself when I can find what I need , I don’t know if you have already but a full detail video like this one on the model 92 would be awesome , if you have done one could you please leave a link for me , Aussie Steve .
Thanks! I’m glad you enjoyed it. I only have a shooting video on the model 1892. I’ll have to do a full on history vid one of these days.
The .45 cartridges did not have a sufficient rim for reliable extraction. They were "balloon head" cases to accommodate the 40 grains of black powder in the civilian loads. It's nearly impossible to stuff 40 grains of fff under a 250 grain bullet in modern cases which have prominent rims and thicker case walls.
Lot of folks go for their AR-15s and AR-10s. Give me a levergun in .45-70 and I'm perfectly content! I really enjoyed this video, Mike! Thanks for exercising your Winchesters for us!
Thanks! I'm glad you enjoyed it.
I have always enjoyed your articles and videos.
Thanks!
Actually that’s the deluxe sporting rifle with the pistol grip and checkering; extra cost options in the originals.
Great video and information. Thanks Mike.
Love my 1873 32-20 Winchester.
My dad used to hunt deer with it in Pa. When he was a youngster. I shoot it once in awhile on targets, ammo not real common anymore.
My grand kids shoot it too, no recoil.
The .32-20 is one of my favorite cartridges.
Fascinating discussion! Glad I watched the video.
Great video Mike, thanks.
Happy Thanksgiving! Thanks for another great video on an interesting topic.
Happy Thanksgiving to you as well.
Great information Mike. I always wondered about this subject. Now I understand. Thanks
Thanks! I'm glad you enjoyed it.
Great video Mike!
Thank you for that explanation ! I like all your content Skip
Glad you like them!
Anybody else nervous about using that rifle like a cane?