Consciousness is Not a Computation (Roger Penrose) | AI Podcast Clips
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- čas přidán 18. 05. 2024
- Full episode with Roger Penrose (Mar 2020): • Roger Penrose: Physics...
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Roger Penrose is physicist, mathematician, and philosopher at University of Oxford. He has made fundamental contributions in many disciplines from the mathematical physics of general relativity and cosmology to the limitations of a computational view of consciousness.
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I love the way Lex has jammed him in with that microphone so he cant escape.
Lmao
💀💀💀
😂
bro
lol! hope sir rodge didn't have to sleep on that diy fold out bed flanking him in to his left
Imagine being one of the most brilliant people to ever exist, and his answer is "I dont know." That always makes me happy for some reason.
Cause there’s a lot we don’t know yet, or can not know, I guess
He's not a BS'er. "I don't know" is valid.
Socrates?
That showed how intelligent he really is
@3V0: I think it's because to say you "don't know" is honesty.
Having someone as absolutely brilliant as Roger Penrose speak so openly about how is unsure about the foundations of his own field of study is incredibly refreshing
Yes. Humility.
I agree, its great. He is working on the edge of what we know
is he brilliant--what peer-reviewed works of his have you read that led you to that conclusion? You can interpret his words as being 'unsure,' but why project that to the rest of his field?
@@DemonetisedZone sure. 4ish decades ago
And that’s exactly why I respect people like him.
Penrose gotta be one of the most humble scientists I've ever seen.
He wears a cardigan and has silver hair combed over.
He isn’t a scientist. He’s an atheist lunatic, trying to force this left-wing liberal democratic agenda down our throats
Yeah, humble + intellectual is rare now
Freeman Dyson would give anyone a run for their money. Not that that's an appropriate idiom to use, monetary interests couldn't influence him
Isn't it remarkable how a disgusting white supremacist colonialist tiny island like Britain gave the world Newton, Flemming, Darwin, Stephenson, Parsons, Penrose, Hawking, Dyson, Berners-Lee... Racists
He explains these concepts so well. Its really a privilege to live in an age where you can access such a wealth of knowledge instantly. Brilliant man.
I agree, You have the ability to devour it all
@@raggona5819 Clarity, purpose, authority and prestige. A rare find.
@Johann I havent read the entire book yet, partly because I'm still looking for a paper version im my language (for 6 months as I'm checking almost everyday there hasn't been even one copy for less than 50£), reading ebook in this case isn't that comfortable, but it definetely seems interesting.
@@thishandleistaken1011 what would it take for you to have a different view? He is discussing a credible hypothesis whit a path to turn into a testable testable scientific theory..
And yet millions of people continue to choose to remain as idiots.
Sir Roger Penrose is a living legend and he is almost 90. You were very lucky for this interview
@@thishandleistaken1011 Neckbeard, spotted
@@thishandleistaken1011 You´re just to dumb to understand it lol.
@ƥundr sonr not to split hairs, but science does not work by adding up confirmations. His hypotheses (not a proper theory) can have evidence to support it. But we do not use words like proof , or confirmation in science typically. -Academic Scientist
@@thishandleistaken1011 When you listen to someone, the level of understanding depends on your knowledge as well. Else it will be like you listening to an elephant whisper. Everything will sound like bullshit.
I'm also lucky.
"I have no idea, so I wrote this book."
"If all you know is a hammer, everything looks like a nail." A physics professor specializing in quantum mechanics asked about consciousness will say it's caused by quantum mechanics. Funny how Penrose admits to not having any idea about neuroscience and only reading up on it *after* he decided to write his book :D At least he's aware that his ideas are speculative at best.
Surly if all you know is a hammer, everything looks like a hammer?
@@steveford1070 I paraphrased A. Maslow's quote from memory, the original goes "If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail."
So does neuroscience claim to provably know the origin and nature of consciousness - or are the ideas of neuroscience speculative at best?
@@PrzemyslawDolata we get that, but surely if it exists it has to have solution in the equations, QM is basically the study of how existence works, so if consciousness has a chance of existing, it needs to be found in existence. if QM cant explain it, either Consciousness doesn't exist or QM is wrong, which we can test. So yeah, in this case all of the problems are nails. :\
At least he's an "honest academician"...which the likes of you have been "conditioned" to ridicule!
I believe it was Groucho Marx who once famously said: "I'm still confused, but on a higher level!"
Earl C. Kelley - “We have not succeeded in answering all our problems. The answers we have found only serve to raise a whole set of new questions. In some ways we feel we are as confused as ever, but we believe we are confused on a higher level and about more important things.”
Confusion of da highest Orda!
I do to. I used to have it on one of those poster papers you can frame and put on your office wall, although it left out the attribution to Kelley, who said it in a book for teachers about workshops and the educational process
me too
I think you're referring to Enrico Fermi, "Before I came here I was confused about this subject. Having listened to your lecture I am still confused. But on a higher level.
"
I’m always struck by Penroses humility. He knows more than most people, but is still quick to say “I don’t know”.
Great point! I believe it's called the Dunning Kruger effect. As you become more and more expert in an area you realize how vast it is and how little you actually know. It is a telltale sign that the person talking is worth listening to, because they have invested enough of themselves into the field that they can't help but be humbled by it.
I enjoy theorizing alot about physics and everytime I think I arrived at what to me is a very unique idea I check for the mathematical foundation I can reference or use I always find there are more to that idea that a lot of people has expounded on and a lot more questions on how to possibly prove it and use it to make predictions. So, yes, if you care enough to do the work to back your ideas you'll always come out humbled.
The thing is that "I don't know" takes on a different meaning when you try to define what and how you don't know something and limit the void with what you do know. It's part of exploring the edges of the unknown, rather than just acknowledging its existence or worse, filling it with unrazored entities. Like seeing the shape of the last three remaining puzzle pieces. You know it's very probably three, you know with a high degree of accuracy what is on each of them, you know where they are now to the nearest decimeter. What you don't know is which way round they fit or where they fit. You can calculate how many possibilities there are if you make some very reasonable assumptions. But it is all still a theory :)
@@johnmatelski6413...isn’t that the exact opposite of the Dunning Kruger effect?
@@MikaelLewisify
The doubtful expert and the arrogant dunce are both examples of D-K effect.
21:30
"Intelligence needs understanding;
Understanding needs awareness."
This could be applied in so many other fields!
Awareness is the unobtainable magic of life. I'm not worried about technology finding awareness. Ever...
🙏
Something that philosophy has known for thousands of years. Scientists don’t read philosophy though.
@@MrRandy1221 I'm not worried about it either, but it's inevitably going to happen weather we're worried about it or not.
@@smkxodnwbwkdns8369 Philosophy was replaced by science during the Englightment. Ever wonder why there's no philosophers anymore? Same reason there's no VHS tapes anymore. It's obsolete.
@@TheHexeract lol you have no idea what you’re talking about dude. Philosophy has never attempted to do what science does, and science for the most part hasn’t attempted philosophy with the exception of very recent history albeit when it does it miserably fails.
Do you even know what philosophy is? Science btw was birthed out of philosophy and increasingly became more specialized and particular tools of understanding.
What does science have to say about ethics? Aesthetics? Language?Politics? The only part of philosophy science can participate in is metaphysics and that is to a limited and specialized degree. Otherwise science has not encroached on any of the domains of philosophy. When it had tried for the first time in recent history due to scientism, it has had absurd and useless results. I remember laughing when I read about Sam Harris using brain scans to prove ethical statements.
This channel has put out enough quality content it deserves a sub. Well done. Keep doing what you're doing.
"Trying to measure consciousness is like trying to measure a ruler with the same ruler"
ghoulunathics - which you can do perfectly btw.
@@TheLuminousOne and as a smart person you know that despite of all the playing smart ass the metaphor describes the problem of taking measurements without a point of reference.
@@ghoulunathics So what is your take on consciousness? I personally don't think consciousness is anything special. The "feeling" of self awareness seems to come from a combination of the brain remembering past experiences and self reflecting on those experiences. Having a language makes it possible to put those experiences into words and have those words tied to certain memories and emotions, creating a sense of a self ego. Sense of pain and pleasure just amplify this sense of self presence even more. Reading through a bunch of stuff, that's my take on it anyway.
@@septitais In my opinion the real question we are asking when we ask why we're conscious is, why are we independently conscious? It's like, if the universe is conscious, why not all at once? Why does it seem there are these little pockets of consciousness, each with its own eyes to look through out at the world. We are the universe essentially experiencing itself. Are we the same as the universe or are we separate? That's the question we're asking.
Which is 1.
I love how honest Penrose is about weaknesses in the science. I’m weary of scientists filling in gaps with speculation and then present it to the public as gospel.
State of mainstream science today
Do you think it's possible for dark matter to exist at the centre of the Earth⁉️
yes, I agree. I think some people are falling into a form of religion where they don't think about it enough, and just assume the latest crazy theory is 100% fact because they saw someone misrepresent some research on a youtube video or something. Then, someone ignorant of science in general sees the video and they are either converted to this new science religion, or they are put off from science, even though the video has little to do with actual science.. The whole point of science is that we accept that anything can be disproved, but really nothing can be truly proven, if someone is trying to sell interesting thoughts as 100% fact, they are not using science in an honest way.. We are just looking for practical ways to use nature, more or less.. Science is not tailored trying to answer philosophical questions.
We need more people being honest about science, and less click-bait lol, but that would not be profitable for the click-baiters.
Gospel and science shouldn’t really be on the same side let alone the same worry. No offense but religion has cost us centuries of prosperity and countless lives. Things like Scientology aren’t science,that’s just politics and religion at work. You know like Joel Olsteen or whoever,same formula my fellow meat sacks.
You're right. Okay. I saw a TV programme just after A Brief History Of Time came out in hardback. They showed the start of a planet being formed by pebbles being gravitationally attracted together in the vastness of space. How can this happen?? When I bring two pebbles together on the beach I can't feel any force of attraction at all!
It's heartwarming to see a brilliant man discovering an other field of science and by his raw hunger for knowledge get's utterly fascinated.
He incorporates things from his discoveries of quantum physics into this landscape that is unknown to him. And you can already smell that if he can have another lifetime, he would've been at the forefront of neuroscience. It's beautiful.
He might be on the right track about his gut feelings. Someday, we'll might know for sure.
it is heartwarming! he's a bit of a novice in biology but that's the point. you have to start from scratch in each new field you explore. very admirable.
People like Roger Penrose make me re-think my position on life extension/end of aging. I would happily give up my spot on this tiny blue dot to give Roger Penrose another lifetime to figure this stuff out.
@@brennonbrunet6330 This is a beautiful tought sir.
A man both brilliant and engaging (two things that don’t even nearly always go together). I hesitate to make this observation, but the way he is grasping his jaw and neck with his hands during much of this interview, suggests an extraordinarily shyness.
I feel like a 16th century peasant listening to two time travelers from the future.
Yes, same here too, and thats funny that I am still struggling to listen but I dont understand a thing 😀😀
me too haha
@@IrakliJishkariani q
I mean the subjects they are discussing he is confused about as well and searching for a way frame the question properly and interpret an answer.
@CZcamsisruined Byblacksgaysandwomen makes sense from an evolutionary perspective, just like trees use the golden ratio unknowingly to place their leaves and branches and petals to get the maximum surface facing the sun.. our brains or brains in general might have evolved to use quantum states in the connections between neurons to maximize the capacity to think or consciousness in this case, but basically what I'm getting is that the brain is a self correcting and enhancing mechanism which we don't yet quite understand the workings of on the nitty gritty level, or maybe we do but we can't understand how all the pieces fit together to do what they do... But isn't that still computational, I mean neural networks"train" in a somewhat similar way. How does the consciousness part differ from the base brain, the medulla oblongata 😀 I think (class 12 bio), how does consciousness differ from say breathing or digestion or any other process, aren't we just reacting to a certain stimulus internal or external?
Really like the interviewer. Very humble. Doesn't pretend he knows something he doesn't
me very interesting fellow
Trevor Cormier
You’re right. But he’s not just an interviewer. Searching up his credentials may interest you. Brilliant in his own right
Lex is the man!
They're both brilliant and humble. I wish more of our species behaved in such a way.
One of the first signs of intelligence is knowing enough to know that you don't know enough.
The scene from 2001 Space Odessey was where the Apeman throws the bone in the air, it depicts its joy of getting information from somewhere, in his head. If you haven't read the book and had an experience of having the meaning of the incident bloom in your mind, you may not realize the creature realized his mind had produced the idea of 'weapons' to solve the problem of getting food. The first idea was a joyous event, for the ape person.
Sir Roger is so humble.
"This book will maybe stimulate people to do science or something"
I was 17 when I got this book. I read it, A Brief History of Time, and Chaos: Making a New Science all around the same time. Those books had a profound influence on me, and my pursuit of science and knowledge.
Mission complete.
What did you end up doing?
@@Vocal4Local it's less about what I did, and more about how I approached it. I was likely to pursue science and math anyway, but books like these guided thoughts and actions. I was steered not only into specific fields by these books, but to understand them in a way that would allow me to explain things as simply as they did, and finding and demonstrating the elegance and beauty of science and math.
yet they see and dont credit the aether. if u can make matter out of light. would that not mean all matter is high energy light. so quantum is out of the equation. its all modalities of one thing. michael morly didn't only proved he wasnt a scientist. much like the misconception of lead in fuel and not a timing issue with the firing order. is lame and a stunt to make money. as all science has become.
Books really do inspire kids. Thank you for everyone that put in the time to write them
Hes 89 at this interview and this lucid, persuasive and eloquent, its honestly incredible
Now I understand why Penrose and David Bohm worked together so well. Thank you.
One will never know whats truly possible, until what is percieved to be impossible is challenged and overcome. Humanity at one point deemed it impossible to fly, or talk instantly with someone across the entire globe, yet someone had the brains and the guts to question what is really possible, and defied the odds.
So incredible to see Professor Penrose win the Nobel Prize.
One of the greatest minds.
Fred Hoyle should've got one and never did
“In the first place, all of chemistry is quantum mechanics” (8:48)
I’m giving him the Nobel right there!
@@rokyericksonroks "How to annoy chemists 101 w/ Dr. Penrose"
@Nibi who was it that said there is only one true science and that is physics.Everything else is like stamp collecting.
@@frannyp46 IDK but I like it! (Has a physics degree)
I love that Lex actually lets his guests speak instead of trying to dominate the conversations. He is a good interviewer. He asks just enough to wind their mind up and then watches it go. Good stuff. A lot of podcasters could learn from this. Like his friend Joe "Joe Rogan" Rogan
@@voidisyinyangvoidisyinyang885 What the heck dude? If I recall it right, Sapolsky didn't explicitly state at any point that testosterone causes stupidity. And Rogan didn't ignore him, he even *asked* if testosterone causes stupidity (or slows maturation, idk) and Sapolsky answered along the lines of "not really/not significantly". Did you even listen to that entire podcast?
Who can dominate Roger Penrose?
Joe "Rogan, Joe" Rogan could learn a thing or two.
Ugh the comment section 😱😫
A S haha. It feels like it always devolves into an argument over semantics.
Love listening to the brilliance of Dr. Penrose.
The world owes this man so much. Awesome interview as always Lex! Thanks!
Coming from a family of Geniuses .His younger brother Johnathan is a renowned Chess grandmaster .His late father a famous professor of genetics and mathematics .
I think, therefore I'm confused.
Bob Davis hahahahaha
do not think, be here now :)
I think, still can't figure it out.
"If you're not confused you don't understand the situation" 🤣
Haha! Love this! Beautiful!
Anybody else get this feeling that with every new thing we learn, we come closer to understanding how little we actually know?
You just described my entire career on IT 😂
Realizing you know very little is the key to real intelligence.
Yeah well Socrates was ahead of us all there too. :)
Indeed Mr. McTitties
Or Ms/Mrs
He seems a really nice and humble chap. And of course next level intelligence.
I actually love penrose, by the way lex is fantastic and this interview was so interesting and calming whilst I was at work! Thankyou ❤
The ward is MATURE !
this man is a trooper, continuing on with the interview in spite of his toothache
that may very well be the funniest comment I have ever read . you are a genius ! 😅🤣😅🤣😅
I came to the comments specifically for this comment. Ty.
❤
Tooth ach is a sign of dehydration.
You are a comment god thank you
This charming and self-effacing gentleman, a Nobel prize winner, shows intellectual humility. His brainpower is truly awesome and in its way terrifying. He is very special
It is because of his intelligence, not despite of it. I love his energy, it is something special about it that Is rare to come across.
Agree
@@kimolsson9386 agree too
He's a smart guy but his thoughts on consciousness make no sense.
@@TheHexeract I can see your point, but when you are dealing with Quantum physics and the Quantum world, there is nothing but paradoxes, which in Newtonian terms don't make sense. He is talking Quantumly, hence what appears to be a gross lack of logic..
Just blown away. That there is a brain of immense capability in an aging body, just as Hawking was in a debilitated body. The brilliance is in their ability to understand their field, but Sir Roger Penrose is so down to earth and willing to expand his knowledge in another field to broaden his perception and still admits that there are so many aspects of this science theory that we cannot quantify in a meaningful way just yet. I hope that those following him have the same dedication to this thinking.
It's all about lifelong learning. You cannot get to the point where Roger Penrose is if you don't manage your brain like others manage their muscles. :) Yes blown away as well. Sensational discovery/thesis.
Penrose is a world treasure. We should be thankful for his brilliance and ability to explain these topics in such a manner that anyone can understand.
love the mattress spare room feel of this podcast
lol
@@MeatCatCheesyBlaster 😂
probably just a bed in his office to relax on since he's in his 90s
The human brain is the universe becoming aware and looking out upon itself. It’s incredible how the connections in the brain resemble the filaments of stars and the empty spaces between those filaments evident in the known universe.
Great insight 😊enjoyed the educated understanding. Congratulations 🎉
A truly brilliant human being. We are so lucky to have him.
Probably the most interesting comment section I've ever came across. So many beautiful minds. My gratitude.
yes, so many non-arrogant people discussing is itself beautiful
Roger Penrose points to anaesthesia as turning consciousness on and off and that all chemistry is quantum mechanics. So what is the chemistry of sleep? What turns consciousness on and off there at various times and what control process is it that allows us to snap it back on in an instant? What prevents the sleep switch from operating? Fabulous thoughts.
Excellent video, very nourishing.
Should add, that's one of the all time best comb overs
Listening to this man is absolute golden bliss. Thank you for doing the interview and posting it here for all of us to watch for free.
It’s weird if consciousness is a computation, and weird if it’s not
Corey Monsta Acknowledging situations like these brings true wonder into life!
Our bread takes in, our concentrated light of day runs simulations looking for the most peaceful path, action being implemented, a choice made.
The gift is learning or maintaining integrity once a true path is revealed.
That's what he tried differentiate by using the word "understanding".
Consciousness is not a computation, but the (conscious) understanding of a phenomenon seems to be an interplay between consciousness and the computational processing of incoming and internal information.
P vs NP
@@IIIIIawesIIIII The fact that the world's greatest thinkers on the subject acknowledge we're nowhere close to a model of what consciousness truly is, which has direct implications on the quantum state, tells us we're nowhere near an accurate model of the universe. Sure QM allows us to make predictions as did Newtonian physics, but it doesn't necessarily represent base reality. Cognitive scientist Donald Hoffman has some brilliant insights on this very subject of "understanding" czcams.com/video/oYp5XuGYqqY/video.html
92 years old and still very sharp.
As a medical physics student, this is so enlightening. Thank you @LexFridman @RogerPenrose for this wonderful conversation. It's worth noting the sodium and calcium interactions between the synapses and how they shrink and grow to work with the endocrine and nervous systems. It's almost like a robot, however, humans have developed an additional "sense" to realize these things, and all of this is quantum physics (study the periodic table lol). So many peculiarities, like how the neuron doesn't have mitosis because the body has to conserve energy. Neither does the heart because it would enlarge. So many beautiful puzzles we may never figure out. And after everything is said and done, physics (math) is the foundation of things and the way we perceive them.
Consider the fact that the mind has it's own electric and magnetic field. Which is effected by external electric and magnetic fields. Also cosmic particles effect our brain, depending on the particle and where it lands. And cosmic particles are not rare, they bombard the earth daily.
Give that thought a ponder.
Realizing and understanding this made me see that we havent got a clue what's going on up there.
@@johnathanmandrake7240 we have more of a clue what's going on up there than we do down here and "inside here" i.e., our individual brains, I'd wager.
A.I as far as I see it, is basically an extension of 'Automation' which we have been doing since the industrial revolution with mechanical automation, the digital variety is more complex but is not anywhere near consciousness. The volume of concepts and data is not really the point.
Well the day when we will be able to make an AI as intelligent as an human is far away that's true but I invite you to watch two minutes paper which details many articles regarding AI, it's mind blowing.
Concepts like AI curiosity are also really interesting to learn about, we have to keep in mind that even our most powerful computers are still not a match for our human brain, and don't have its level of optimisation either.
You guys have to review how smart we are. And we are not.
There is no reason to think that a self aware robot isn't conscious in some form. Brains aren't magic just because they are fleshy.
@@alancollins8294 humans are alive, computers are not.
@@arturkvieira sponges are alive too doesn't make them sentient last I checked
What he's trying to say is: The world at the macro scale is deterministic, and determinism can't explain consciousness. Therefore non-deterministic, micro scale phenomena _might_ be able to. And some brain structures are at the boundary between the two scales, thus consciousness might be rooted there. His evidence that consciousness is non-deterministic is that humans can hold ideas that computers can't represent.
Stefan Travis he forgot that: we know so little about our brains and how consciousness is formed (in 10 years we’ll think completely different things)
@Fiesbertt it's not determinism vs. randomness per-se. But your thinking is on the right track.
Quantum mechanics - at it's very fundamental core - is built upon statistical probabilities. Which slit the particle goes through is determined by percentages - which looks alot like randomness, but it's numbers.
Penrose believes there's something to this quantum probabilistic nature that creates consciousness. Since parts of the brain like microtubules, that have been shown to affect consciousness, are small enough to be affected by quantum mechanics.
Perhaps consciousness and how it presents itself in our brains, and other animals, is based on some quantum workings - perhaps it's linked to the phenomenon of wave collapse?
@Fiesbertt what you describe with the birds is precisely what Penrose believes microtubules do for consciousness.
The second half of penrose's belief is more difficult to really break down, but in a sentence, these quantum equations break down when interpreted by a being that can process them. So this ability to be aware of them is itself consciousness.
Truth be told I take a more materialistic stance on consciousness. I don't believe it's anything special. My belief is that it's just extreme intelligence. A crow learning how to use a stick to hunt for worms in a hole is the same type of curiosity that makes us ask these big questions and figure out quantum physics.
It's just curiosity all the way dowb. What's so special about wondering about consciusness? When we don't have to figure out how to hunt or survive, then the only problems left to work out is how our brain works.
I do like his ideas. He does talk about his own reservations on his own idea, this is just philosophy.
Realistically so far we have 0 evidence that we cant replicate consciousness through computation. There also is the question of what exactly is computation. Quantum computers and quantum computation have changed the ideas behind it.
Same as the philosophy of life, the more we look at life the more dead appears to be than alive. Id say wait for the science to get to the point where we can test things. As well as when we redefine things.
3 thoughts: 1. I'm not aware of a proof that computers cannot hold ideas, 2. If there were quantum computers then I suppose quantum consciousness would be computable, 3. If consciousness arises by any type of physical process, then it also can be replicated by that process. So if it is reproducable, it is reproducable.
Good interview
What was always the most trippy thing about anesthesia to me, is how quickly it’s capable of rendering a person unconscious upon entering the blood stream. Conversely, when you push the medication to wake you up, the transition back to consciousness happens just as quick. It’s crazy how our body is so capable of recognizing a foreign substance & reacting to it immediately.
Does your car 'recognize' petroleum?
@@anitabonghit2758 the human body is far more complex than a car
@@anitabonghit2758 I'll ask my Tesla
@@anitabonghit2758 putting petroleum in a car is not going to start it
@@Aquamayne100 the human body is material amd it blindly obeys the laws of physics and chemistry.
The same way the car doesnt just decide petrol is going to combust and water isnt. If petrol is ignited it will combust. No recognition required. If you put alcohol in it will also combust. If you remove the spark plug it doesnt.
"Its amazing how your car knows not to run when the spark plug is removed"
When you’re so brilliant you have to hold your head up under the sheer imposing size of your brain.
lol I was guna say trying to pull his face off
karbonxiii 😂
I was thinking he subconsciously was afraid his head was going to float away
That’s oral pain. I cup my face that exact way when my molars where impacting and abscess was present. Speculative at best anecdotal at worst.
karbonxiii 😂😂
Sir Roger Penrose nailed it on the head when he mentioned the only way to understand quantum mechanics better is to know where quantum mechanics goes wrong. You can look for patterns all day long but deciphering the anomalies is where true understanding begins.
That's pretty much true of anything. Understanding how things collapse into chaos is also crucial for understanding how to maintain any order.
There's that word - understanding. And I think I've got a (possibly circular) definition for it. Understanding is the most innate part of the human experience from which all language including this word to describe it derives.
Is the same true for intelligence? I'm still waiting for that answer LOL. I'm curious about consciousness and where it all begins. Why do we have it?
@@grimgoblinjack As far as I can tell, Penrose / Hameroff's theory of orchestrated objective reduction is the closest in understanding that question.
@@grimgoblinjack everything is concious and the consciousness divided itself so it could experience itself for what purpose idk. This is my understanding from dabbling in psychedelics. It could be when we die and we cease into nothingness we are nothing for so long that it becomes pointless and we end up creating our reality again. Or we become everything and our perspective shifts back to being the whole universe all at once. Perhaps we are just the universe glimpsing at its creation in a moment of time.
I love the mystery of it, like the soul is something we are beginning to understand but so far we lack the knowledge about how it actually works. I.e. spooky action at a distance and the true nature of reality.
Never heard this but great listen! Agree with with green sweatshirt man.. the issue with the theory is it is very hard to prove under the circumstances but makes much sense to my mind!
A stab at the last part: Awareness is the Descartes beginning of everything in the consciousness. Awareness is the representation of things in consciousness. Understanding is the relation of things in awareness. And intelligence is the generalization and extrapolation capability that can imagine or discover things that were not immediately evident.
shut up man
@@interwebff :D
Consciousness being greater than the sum of its parts is really fascinating. It's like consciousness reaches something beyond the scope of our bodies.
Good to see somebody posing some sort of challenge to the empty space left by Penrose's answers in this particular section of the conversation. We understand quite a bit about the nature of conscious experience and associated concepts such as "awareness", "understanding", and "intelligence". Surely we do not understand them completely. But we also do not understand almost anything completely. At some level, everything is impacted by quantum mysteries, as all things are composed of atoms. There is still a great deal about the mind, and consciousness which we do understand however, and to leave it as open ended as Penrose does here just seems strange to me.
The more I learn the less I know.
I know that I know nothing. I wonder if Socrates meant that as in the inability to grasp the infinity and impossibility to understand the life as-is through abstract models.
That's physics for you mate. You should hear some of the flat out weird results physicists get when they do leading-edge experiments. Stuff like popping an air-bubble deep underwater, results in an intense light and *nobody can work out why that is*.
You actually know more. You're just more aware of how much you don't know.
@@thishandleistaken1011 the thing is, will it ever possible to actually measure or understand the full extent of what makes up a conscience? Its indeed thought provoking. Its almost like if scientists look into how dreams work even if they dont fully understand that too. But then again Im just as confused as everyone
@@thishandleistaken1011 you just showed how stupid you are. The difference between a flea and a human is the level of the ability to think. A flea thinks about what it needs to do. It is programmed by nature to follow certain rules and one way or the other it will do that. We humans on the other hand constantly defy nature in unbelievable ways, both good and bad. Humans can build spacecrafts, explore the universe, admire ancient artifacts and paintings but can a flea do that? Can a flea hold a grudge against someone and take vengeance? No. Can it formulate a grand plan and execute it? No. But a human can. So OBVIOUSLY there's something fundamentally different with us humans than other creatures. And with our potentially boundless knowledge and curiosity, we still haven't found what makes us human. If you don't find that extraordinary then you are not even worth calling yourself a human.
Towards the end, I think the term you were looking for was synesthesia, the involuntary ability to "see" sounds/words/letters/numbers as colours and textures. This phenomenon is fascinating by itself and I didn't know I had it until I realized most other people don't experience reality the same way. To me it's essential, like being able to taste and smell food at the same time, only in this case I am able to receive extra information from something that cannot be seen or touched. Sometimes I forget I even have it, but you both brought it up and I can't stop thinking about what it might mean.
You also experience synesthesia when consuming magic mushrooms on a medium scale
Look up Nimittas in Buddhism
@@SahilP2648I experience that when I'm high on THC. Don't recall having it, or as much on truffles. I see emotion as figures/textures/fractals which then blend into childhood memories. It's sooooo weird. Feels like I'm hijacking part of the brain and seeing what it sees.
There are people that have that ability while completely sober ? wow.
nice work!
There's something about the way he explains himself that makes me keep listening, even if I have no idea what he's saying? :-)
David Cripps Are u american? Something about old british men have a dashing effect on us americans. There’re usually the wise people in our movies
@@blankbmusic I'm British and getting old, lol. We also often play the villians :-)
It's called the Noam Chomsky effect.
When the prof speaks everyone pays attention. He's so inspiring and motivational.
I feel for this man. A lifelong scientist who has run up against the inevitable walls of his paradigm, but hasn't given up because the deeper human part of himself knows that the truth is far beyond. Searching mightily, heroically, for a materialist solution to a quandary that is not in the slightest bit material.
exact
oh please nothing has ever shown to exist outside of natural laws, don't pretend your mumbo jumbo is real
This is one of the best examples of the importance of knowing how to think and not what to think . Sir Roger ya legend
Long before CZcams, I saw Penrose in person give his presentation on this.
Lucky u
I saw him speak on it at McGill University in '99, five years after Shadows of the Mind came out
That's brilliant. Long before CZcams I read his book. The era of books and libraries...
what turns consciousness off??
Penrose: Anaesthetics
What turns it inside out???
McKenna: the mushroom...
I love Terrence mckennas ideas, although most of them appear bizarre😂
Mushrooms increase your conciousness tho
I don't believe consciousness is turned off, but rather sent in a sleep mode. As consciousness is still working in our subconscious when we dream 🤔
Quinton LeBlanc it would be interesting to see what part of the brain fires under anesthesia like if the part of the brain that dreams still works and memory doesn’t or flip flop or both or neither
Red heads have increased consciousness strength and are almost immune to anaesthetics. Help meeeeeee lol
The more we know the more we realise how little we know. Love Penrose. This is a sublime conversation Lex.
If only this sentiment was shared more, both inside and outside of the scientific community. A lot of arrogance around the state of our knowledge these days
The universe is conscious. We’re just able to observe that consciousness. As the great quote goes, we are the universe observing itself.
Universe = totality of all things.
"The totality of all things is concious"
Is it though?
My car is blue. My car is part of the tatality of all things which exist. Therefore the totality of all things which exist is blue.
Is that sound logic?
@@anitabonghit2758 you’re over analyzing a bit. You are conscious right? You don’t say my brain is conscious. Just one part of me is conscious. You don’t talk like that. We are part of a universe. And we are conscious… therefore the universe is conscious.
@@nkyryry i dont know what concious means ecactly. Can you define it?
@@anitabonghit2758
You're mov8ng goalposts
The microtubules he is talking about and the one shown by the picture are different things. But when he talks about the anasthesia, then it's about neuronal microtubules.
"What the hell do they do?"
- Penrose, 2020
Yes, that statement was delicious, coming from a Nobel Prize recipient. Knowing what one does not know, is the key to advancing all the sciences.
@@JamesBond-uz2dm no one person can know what you're not majored in
😂
Very interesting discussion. In Buddhism consciousness is in Sanskrit "vijñāna" which in English is literally "in two parts (vi) knowing (jñāna)".
Sounds like information storage. Something my computer can do
A fascinating area to contemplate. I've often wondered what space was, and now they're wondering what consciousness is. In both cases it seems to come down to undefined bits which, over time, will maybe be defined.
Excellent interview, apart from the subject and the interesting explanations of concepts, the interviewer really allows the space for Penrose to be heard yet manages to guide him just enough towards what the viewer might need to understand further. Awesome. Thanks for posting
I love his intuitive mastery, how he knows what's missing, how much is missing, how far away they are, etc..
That comes from a long life of awareness -> understanding -> intelligence
Amazing conversation...
I love how Penrose always start from the "philosofical" that inspired him first and build up into phisics.
What he says about computing makes me think of the breach between computing and biology on our closed system earth. Taking into acount that our brains is the result of a massive long term non-artificial or natural process, we still don´t know if any artificial self sustaining and complexity growing intelligence would do when it starts to build up in the same entropy we are on.
I tend to agree with pensrose, that no artificially created intelligence by a naturally ocurring one, could develop concsiousness(but not knowing the reach of our concsiousness, well....)
Yes, he began with bullshit and at the end there was only bullshit left. :-)
@@schmetterling4477 Some fresh morning green grass with no flies lurking bullshit. He sold me!
@@oraculox A lot of people love bullshit. Would you like a talking donkey with that? ;-)
Masterfully done, host Lex Fridman. You got your questions in to move things along and clarify.
"Not even tentative" - new idiom.
"Do we have a theory of consciousness?"
"Not even a tentative one."
Nice video, fascinating. One constructive criticism: I'm listening to this as I work, and the longer I listen, the more the speaker's inhaling becomes grating. Is there not a way to automatically edit that out with some audio engineering software? It would make this so much more enjoyable. Cheers.
Consciousness is conscious awareness.
The key word here is awareness!
Consciousness is our awareness of reality gathered through our senses.
I think awareness is dependent upon an entangled state that occurs between the viewer and the viewed?
General anesthetics does not work to make everyone unconscious?
I can see why Mr Penrose is so well respected.
I love his style and way of thinking. Very humble and no BS.
I've noticed that I can sit and listen to physicists talk about physics all day 24/7 and it never gets old. It's just too damn fascinating.
I even sleep on physics discussions 😂
🛌
Now imagine if God really exists and he created this physical worls.
We adore and are fascinated with His creation yet we forget Him.
My point is, please research about Him too.
Don't proselytise in the comment section of this man's philosophical viewpoint. Your idiocy is overshadowed by Sir Roger's intelligence and does nothing but make my eyes roll, and that's coming from an agnostic.
@@BennyAscent In the spirit of Lex Fridman, I would proselytize kindness and understanding. Most importantly, Love.
@@XenonDiosmitide More power to you.
You don't have to explain the collapse of the wave function, if it doesn't collapse. I would love the opportunity to see Penrose and a MW enthusiast, talk about about the differences in their interpretations of QM.
Collapse still happens, it just does so into all the possibilities
Brilliant! Thank you!
How blessed are we to have the brain of Roger Penrose up and running and a media to have a glimpse of it at work. Brilliant human.
Bless his microtubules
Admiration and Respect to Mr Roger Penrose his intelligence is amazing, it is a privilege to hear him here, thank you
Excellent topic and guest, thank you!!
Consciousness defined philosophically (what's it like to be x) cannot be reduced to any physical description because it is at least coherent to talk about conscious immaterial entities (e.g. ghosts, angels, departed souls, etc.)
Dude is 89 and speaks more eloquently about these abstract ideas than I can at 30
Well,he does have 60 years on you.
Of course he can, oh dear it sounds like you believe the mind dulls always with age.
maybe because he has been studying it for all his life. the more time you devote to something, the better you get at it. so you'll be in your prime of expertise in your golden years so look forward to it!!! :) it's what I am looking forward to in ageing too: I'll finally know more than what I know now at 20
I'll probably just be crapping my pants and talking about World War 3
@@kirkhunter146 it does most of the time to some degree.
Initally the discussion regarding consciousness used to fascinate me now it terrifies me.
Change is hard to embrace
Would love to see you interview Tom Campbell (MBT).
This makes me start wanting to ask questions about lucid dreaming, and wondering if researching into the states of wave functions from the brain during lucid dreaming, could actually lead us to an answer somewhere.
The fact that i can be fully awake and conscious during a dream, to the point of actively being able to remember the real-world day before hand, and how the things i experienced went into the detailed make up of the dream im in... I feel like there has to be something there.
If sleep is supposed to turn us off so we can rest, then what the ever living hells is allowing me to stay AWAKE AND FULLY CONSCIOUS through my entire dream.
The reality we perceive during lucid dreaming is very much like how our waking consciousness functions but with a realisation that we are asleep. Do you record your vivid dreams? If you closely observe them then you find that what appears in front of you is a series of mental projections.
In certain lucid dreams, have sensed the taste of food, felt pain and seen what might be future events unfolding. In one of these dreams, saw my brother having a serious motor bike crash that came true 4 days later.
I don't think sleep is "turning us off". There's a difference between being unconscious and your body repairing itself. Like we know that glial cell activity is not the most active during the deepest rem sleep but rather when we first sleep.
@Vinzent B Yes, what is on your mind during the day comes out in dreams although we don't have lucid dreams every night, mostly unclear ones that are harder to recall.
@@MurdoDW There are different levels of unconsciouness as we fall asleep. As you say, our body repairs and nurtures itself during sleep but when we have vivid dreams in colour and often with other senses functioning as they do whilst fully awake. Have you ever noticed that you can taste, smell and feel physical pain whilst lucid dreaming?
Try taking magnesium before sleep. You'll dream even more vividly.
I love Penrose and Hameroffs theories and combined works. Captivating stuff.
In my view, Sir Roger Penrose is one of the cleverest men who ever lived. It took me a long time to read his tome ''The Road to Reality'', but it was worth it!
Thanks for the enlightening interview. Made me wonder, when we say "consciousness is non computational", did we search from where the logical computation takes birth?
Always felt he is one of the most resonant. Quantum gravity will be understood when graphically representing the probabilities of observation in a 4d space, or, the probability rather wave functions collapse.
Here is a thought. Anesthesia does NOT turn Consciousness off. It only turns off the experience. I’ve had several surgeries with Anesthesia and I always feel like part of me is always there but the movie (the experience) of my life is absent.
You may find it interesting regarding topic you've raised czcams.com/video/w7irEcQHChw/video.html
Great interview thank you Mr Friedman for putting this up i've watched it several times. Penrose is a fascinating man
I was sad it was so short but i found full version in the description haha
Really enjoyed this. Good food for thought. He articulated well some of my misgivings about what AI really is and/or will become.
Absolutely incredible interview. Lex, you did an amazing job bringing it back to your audience and making sure we know what to google and research... very inspiring.
Yes....totally agree. He is an amazing interviewer . Strikes the perfect balance between questions, prompts and the gaps in between. Mind you, Roger Penrose is a bloody legend. Imagine having a mind and intellect as honed and sharp at his age. Emporers New Mind an incredible book.