I hope anyone who is considering taking a big loan to buy fancy equipment that's going to take a lot of work to feed it listens to John's sage advice. Start small, and be patient. The biggest investment you can make in life sits on top of your shoulders. I remember only 5-6 years ago watching John squatting on his apartment floor to operate some equipment, so the guy speaks from experience. A few years isn't a long time in the grand scheme of things and you'll learn so much in that time it sometimes all feels like a dream. John have you considered using spotting drills instead of centre drills for spotting holes? The spotting drills are specifically designed for that purpose (and obviously the centre drills are designed for, well, drilling centres for the lathe). I find the spotting drills are more accurate and rigid. A smart guy can also run them down deep enough to leave a chamfer on the hole after the hole has been punched through, so saves an op. I know a lot of people use centre drills, and obviously they work, but apart from the above advantages, the small ones have a nasty habit of snapping the tip off, and the broken tips can be a PIA to get out of the piece. The angles are also wrong for the following drill.
It was really really great what you said about doing great work with what you can afford at the end there. Roaming around forums will deliver nothing but smug big shots who only tell you that you're wasting your time starting a business if you don't have a 1 ton, servo driven VMC.
Couldn't agree more with your talk at the end. I consider everything leaving my shop as a reflection of my shop and myself for that matter and I don't want it to anything out associated with me that isn't done to the best of my ability. I know I'm not perfect but I take pride in my work and it's nice to see others that do too.
Great video John! I appreciate you sharing some insight into the business aspect of what you do, in this day and age of instant gratification, it's hard for any of us to have the patience to grow slow... Appreciate your wisdom.
Could not agree more, do not go into debt, I have not officially opened the doors but I started purchasing lathe, mill and tooling 7 years before I retired from the army. I got a real nice setup and owe no money. Just go slow
Thank You for taking the time to describe how your job shop does business and the care and respect you show in helping your customer. Many will not take much time to dicuss this issue at all and sometimes actually seem to just be secretive. I have always believed that a part should look good to a machinist when made care being given to finishes and blends and so on. In fact I think it is important to make it better than asked for if it only takes a little bit more care. If we are dealing with someone not a expert we want it to appeal to them with how the part looks and functions. A novice can tell quality even if they are not schooled in our art.
I was glad to see you using a flex arm tapping tool. I have a different brand that I picked up about ten years ago and you couldn't get that unit out of my shop. They are fantastic for allot of operations but nothing is better for pattern tapping plates for special set ups. Great video, Thanks.
Tom Meeker Tom what other operations do you use this arm for? I've seen them around but never used one, and have a couple of Tapmatic chucks for tapping, so I'm interested in what else the arms could be used for. There is an article in a British magazine, out this month, on making one and it doesn't seem especially tricky.
Pete F The unit I have is manufactured by or at least branded as ARO. The arm is not difficult to make but if you do that the issue will be locating the inline pneumatic tapping tool. The tool is activated once you close the paddle trigger but it doesn't engage until you move the tool towards the work and retracts when you pull it up. Generally a good one of those "guns" will run you about $400-$500 US dollars for a new old stock sitting on someones shelf but retail is about $1300. If you watch Ebay for "tapping arms" sometimes you can find them removed from service for a few hundred dollars complete. I use it great deal for very small taps for robotics and animatronics. Once you get comfortable with it you can safely use very small taps. The tool is always at a 90 degrees to the table surface. As long as you clamp or hold the work so it is parallel to the worktable surface your taps always drive straight .
Pete F I use it for tapping, reaming, deburring, counter sinking, and occasionally even drilling holes with high number drill bits that dont hold in my press chuck very well.
You have some very good advice. First of all pursue excellence and exceed your customers expectation and if you've been smart enough to stay out of debt you can't fail to succeed. Word of mouth has and always will be the best advertisement there is. Pay cash for it as you go, oh granted you won't necessarily have the latest or newest but during hard times you will keep your doors open. If necessary you may have to sale an asset or two, but by paying cash on the barrel in the past you have the asset to sale! Word of mouth will always be the best advertisement you could buy and will keep you in the black.Years ago my father and his partner attended a Beechcraft fly in, for owners of Beechcraft airplanes. They arrived in an older model single engine Bonanza. Theirs was the oldest airplane there. There were several twin engine models., and pressurized twins and they felt pretty insignificant. As the evening wore on and they met the other pilots it turned out they were the only people there that actually owned their plane. Everyone else were just making payments to the bank.
Thanks for another great video! I just discovered Clickspring a couple of weeks ago and that guy is amazing! All that in a 6' X 12' shop! Thanks for giving him a mention.
Excellent advice! Irony is the first thing I needed made was a block pretty close to what you showed. Most production shops wouldn't touch one off's, and I didn't know about job shops at the time. So bought an Index Milling Machine and a LeBlonde lathe. They are approaching 50 years and 75 years old, but still making chips! Old timer's TIP: Save the combination drill bit and counter sink for lathe work. Use a spotting drill in the milling machine. Short stubby, and leaves just enough countersink after drilling/tapping operations to leave a nice finished appearance. Do the math once so you know for a 1/4" tapped hole, how deep to leave a 0.280" hole (simple with a 90 degree 3/8" spotting drill).
We have parts we run that get splines formed in them. We used to turn and bore them on the lathe then run a broach through them. Now we pierce and draw them on the 200 ton press then the robot transfers them to the 400 ton press. I use the vibration press stroke where the ram moves up and down as it forms the part.
Working for the other guy he worries about overhead, working for yourself you have to worry about the overhead. Figuring out what that overhead is by the hour is what is going to make the job profitable or not. Thanks for the video.
Quality video once again John. Thanks for your time in putting these out. Simple clear and concise instructions and advice, and watching a great machine put to work. What more could a man want!
this is inspiring. all the talk I hear people giving the tormach cnc's a bad rep, I watch this video and it shows how capable they are for a startup shop for the price.. it may not be a haas or fadal or the mazak i use at work but it looks like it works great for job shop small parts! on a side note... those tap heads are awesome, haven't seen one in quite some time.
John, McMaster-Carr has everything, and they do deliver fast...but in many cases there are lower cost options and it might be worth checking them out, especially if time isn't as critical. I've ordered from Speedy Metals and On-line Metals and gotten exactly what was ordered, usually cheaper than McMaster-Carr. Sometimes one is cheaper than the other on a specific material or shape, so it's worth checking both. Everything has arrived in good shape and well packed. Selection is pretty good too. Thanks for the vid! Don't know if I'll ever try job shop work, other than for friends, but it's good knowing more about it. There's no such thing as useless knowledge. -- Mike
Love the gopro mount for the vise. The flex-arm looks awesome for tapping. I use a drill press with a tap head but any time you can do something offline it frees up the machine for more money making things!
John, This video is very encouraging and realistic. Great advice. Also thanks for the reference to CZcams channel for Clickspring. I have been watching Clickspring for the last few months and enjoy the seeing crystal clear video for this type of work using affordable equipment. Paul
In qty 1 I'd have just started making the part from a hunk of material on the Bridgeport. Even with CNC, just use conversational programming at the mill to drill, helical bore, do bolt array, and outside profile. The Centroid control really excels at this kind of work.
My thinking goes like this: You don't make any money on one-off parts like this, the more thought and preparation, instead of just *do*, the more time it takes.
For any small batch job weather you receive a hand drawn part, Blue print, or a CAD file, I always send a sample piece so they can see if the part fits as it was given to you to produce.
I have always used a "circular array" for those types of object. That is, assuming they are equidistant from the center bore (which it looked like these were). Quick and dirty. :-) I cant WAIT for them to tie InventorHSM(CAM) into the Fusion360. May happen, since that REALLY is what needs t happen. I dont remember which of the 2 videos you uploaded today, but I think it would be good seeing the tear down, cleanup, and rebuild. Tormach maintenance is in a few channels, but it is always good to see the different approaches! The thing I see going well with yours is that you always do the quick, dirty, but effective approach. :-D
About 4 years ago I was approached by a man whom my father was very good friends with, who happened to own a machine shop. I didn't know what to do in life in 8th grade, so while we were at dinner one night, the owner offered me a job at his machine shop as long a I did my proper schooling for precision machining. Fast forward to last year, I signed up at my local vocational school for Machine Technology, which I have completed my first year, and I'm on my second year. Second years have the opportunity to go on "Co-Op", which is basically a get-out-of-jail card to go work for half the day, which I took advantage of to go to my father's friend's shop, doing mainly manual work, but some CNC work as well. In a few days I'll be starting, and I'm quite nervous and stressed out about it. It's a big leap from work I've done before, and don't want to mess this up. Any tips or suggestions? What about tools for the job?
NYC CNC , Today went pretty well. First part of the day was helping put up new light bulbs in the shop, but I eventually was put on a bandsaw to cut some pieces for a project. I'd say the only stressful thing about today was the commute there! Super nice people and a "laid back" and personal atmosphere. I will be continuing on my co-op as well as to try to seek full time employment if everything goes A-Ok! Thank you very much on the words of encouragement, and I'll always hang onto them.
I do hobby CNC and manual mill and lathe work. The hand tools I use most are a set of wrenches, allen wrenches, and a digital dial caliper. I recently got, after watching this channel!) a set of allen-wrench sockets and a cordless electric ratchet. (They are sooo nice.) A dial indicator with a magnetic base and an edge finder are must-haves, that's pretty much it. You can learn a lot about machining from watching and asking questions. Historically this has been done, broom in hand, while sweeping the shop. Show up on time, volunteer for the crap jobs, wear your safety glasses religiously, carry a pen and notebook in your pocket, and write things down. You'll have a job in no time. Last piece of advice: Never burn your bridges. You might not want to work for or with a person again, but they might know a guy who you would want to work with.
Well done. I want to get a hobby shop set up one of these days, but I can't decide what type of work I want to do. I'm interested in so many things (mech and electrical engineering, CNC, product design, 3D, animation, etc). I'm a digital product and UI designer by day and love all the great opportunities and great creative outlets that are becoming more accessible. Until I figure out what I want to do, it's great following your channel. Keep it up - have fun and stay safe!
jaydekaytv PS - I'd love to see a 5-axis Tormach at a reasonable price sometime. Btw, I'm sure you've seen it but if not, check out the Pocket NC. Pretty cool breakthrough + looking forward to seeing things progress. NYC CNC
This video is fantastic, thank you for sharing your knowledge. I'm envious of your f360 skills, especially all the cam setup stuff! I'm gonna need to hit the tutorials. It looks like an amazing tool.
Fantastic video as usual John, and great advice at the end. I sure hope someone tapes yours and Grimsmo's presentations at the Tormach open house event. Ciao.
Chris from Clickspring does amazing work, his clock project has me watching them over and over. Difficult to think it's just a hobby to him Great video too man, CNC looks really fast, I bet it's s devil to learn though?
It's not a flex arm, it's very similar but bit heavier duty the air line pumped air in to all the pivots too so it felt like it weight next to nothing.
normally your spotting drill is only meant for lathes, when you pick the part up with a live center or between centers. that's why it has a 60° angle For centering holes there are center drills with 90° tip angle. So you can center drill 0.1-0.2mm bigger than the hole is supposed to be and you dont even have to deburr/chamfer it afterwards.
matze1508 it's the other way round, spot drills have 90 deg points (or others) the centre drill is what is being used here. A centre drill is fine to use on a mill, and actually have better positional accuracy and finished hole diameter accuracy. If you centre and chamfer in one op (which I often do) you'll find that the drill cuts big at the top of the hole, also using a 90 deg spot will eventually knacker the edges of your drill if you're machining hard stuff. So spotting or centring is dependent on application. In ali I would always spot to a depth that would chamfer the hole.
I could form the part on a servo press if I had enough tonnage and a way to clamp all the way around. We have a 400 ton press I can form counterbores and pockets. But the parts have to be run through the machining center and run a fly cutter across them. The metal I move has to go somewhere
I am a Clickspring fan myself. He does all the stuff he does with really nice equipment. I am simply a hobbyist trying to build a clock (which is why I watch him). My equipment not nearly so nice as Mr clickspring's, I had to build my own dividing head. You are 100% correct. Learn to use what you have. Learn the foibles of your equipment. Always consider make/buy tradeoffs. That's something you haven't much spoken about. It's very interesting video. You spent about 10 minutes on the computer and 10 minutes on the Tormach. Allowing for editing, call it half an hour. How long would a skilled machinist take? I'd say an hour. So CNC wins 2:1 Which is why it so popular. On the other hand you have to learn all those software packages, and I would rather wrestle rabid skunks than learn Yet Another Software Package (YASP).
I see lots of people pilot hole then helical with too big a tool. That worked, but if it was me i wouldnt bother pilot drilling, id just helical that with a tool a little more than half diameter of hole. Obviously be careful of chips and not cutting center so tools melts. The smaller tool gives it more of an xy move and room for chips to come out
You should use an actual spot drill versus the center drill you are using. You don't need the 60 degree to use a center on, so you end up just using a weaker tool for no reason. If you get a 90 degree spot you'll be able to feed faster and it will last longer. Great video!
I was thinking about taking a CNC Machinist course at the local tech school. You really, really love this work. I didn't know there was such a network. Are there a lot of women in the business? This was just a wonderful video.
In the US, 97% of machinists are men. (BLS statistic, not made up.) If you like making things, take the course. "I made this" is an incredibly satisfying thing to say. Saying it as you pick up a useful tool you've used hundreds of times is literally the best.
John, Great video. This very helpful to me. Every body else, If you like John's videos and would like to support him, you can find him on patreon and offer support him there. He take his time to make these videos and It takes time. I have been watching him for years and he has been very beneficial to me. I also am learning CNC and not too many people go this far to help. Thanks
I wanted to know if you could take a couple pics of your mod you did to the cold saw so I can replicate it. I love the videos bud keep up the good work.
Thanks for such an interesting video. I'm going to be starting my schooling and apprenticeship soon so I was interested in understanding more about the trade as a whole :)
Have you tried the new turning features that came with the latest update over the weekend? Looking forward to seeing your videos with the CNC lathe and F360 and comparing the goods and bads going between PathPilot and F360 CAM.
Maybe he has previous media experience? Then again I suspect you do too! Jay Bates woodworking has some excellent creative production and editing (and content).
Tip, use a 90 degree 3/4 spot drill instead and make your chamfer at the same time. Also reduces on snapped bits upon first entering part especially in stainless.
Nice video. Didn't seem to take you too long from start to finish. Looks like a part that could be done conventionally, but nice and easy to do that flat bottomed hole with CNC.
You were doing it "wrong". For diametric design you should make sure that Objects like the center circle is black. Vlue indicates that not all dimensions are set. And use depth to object instead of entering the depth of the block. You can change the size of the block and the holes will always go through. In case you increase the depth of the block will the holes not go through when using finite numbers instead of selecting a face where to go to
Great video! Thank you! My only question is what wasn’t mentioned. Such as 1)determining correct tool stick out. 2) no mention of playing with the diameter offset on the finishing tool for the bore. (If it was a tight tolerance, for example ) Any help with this questions would be GREATLY appreciated Thank you
You want as little tool stick out as possible. The longer your tool is, the more prone it is to vibrating =) For doing a tighter tolerance, I'd use a rough pass followed by two finishing passes. Example (metric) Final hole size Ø20mm (+0.02 to +0.04) Roughpass with two finish passes of 0.05mm. Aiming for Ø19.8mm. Measure hole -> Might be Ø19.81mm Offset the program in the CAM to your desired tolerance, taking in consideration of the measure you just got from the first roughing pass. The reason for the two finish passes is to make sure you have NEARLY the exact same tool pressure every time.
NYC CNC i sell steel at the moment for a company in Canada. im the guy you call for that 3x3 6061, i wouldnt let you walk away with only a 6" piece though haha maybe one day i will go get into it, your videos definitely inspire me to change what im doing. selling steel is fun and all but manufacturing just looks so fun, and incredible to watch.
People lack focus, been maching 15 years, ive never crashed or broken any indicators. Ive broken only handful of tools in that time. Always watch distance to go and focus, ive made mistakes but always see it before crash
I wonder what is your experience with intersecting holes like this in terms of burs. If the large bore was a precision dia. would you consider bore, flip part, drill and tap, and then flip back for a reamer?
I used to use Solidworks, but I use F360 now. SW is incredibly expensive (minimum $1000) and you need a separate (expensive) product for CAM. Fusion 360 is free for hobbyists or education, and a subscription is only $200-300 per year depending on if you get it on sale or not.
The Shear Hog can helix down into the part. Why didn't you thread mill the 1/4-20 side hole? Does the Tormach not do thread milling. Not being an internet jerk, just curious, as I'm considering a Tormach. Thank you
Hi John. I have enjoyed a bunch of videos from your channel, and it has been an excellent introduction to CNC machining and really made me want to wander into this previously unknown world. I also like your Arduino projects, as I am also doing many Arduino and Raspberry Pi projects myself. Although the Tormach is my long term goal for a CNC machine, I plan to buy something cheaper to start with. One thing I'm sure you have mentioned, but that I cant remember or find is what type of fog style cooling system you use. What system is that? Thanks, and keep up the good work :-)
On the shear hog bogging down, I think your ramp angle was significantly too aggressive. 5 deg max is my goto. :) I know what I would do on that part...but you and I have a different situation. I'd have drilled with a 1" drill and then come back with a 1" 4 flute solid carbide endmill. Obviously, that's easy to say when the tooling is donated, but I think the way you did it (save for the ramp angle) worked just fine for you. Otherwise, excellent video! Oh...did you catch that you left .01 of the floor during adaptive and didn't get rid of it with the contour? :P
NYC CNC Haha it's all good. We all make silly little mistakes like that every now and then. A VF-2 donated by Haas. We've chatted about it a bit before though I can't remember if I normally comment on your channel with this account or my KC CNC account. I work for The Geek Group :) KC
Its the tool diameter is too big, pilot hole is awaste of time. I just made M64 eyebolt holes at my work. I helical milled 58 mm diameter with 31.75 mm tool with no pilot hole 130mm deep, didnt take long. Other guy doing same thing drilled a pilot hole then helicaled with a 38.1mm tool. With threadmilling i was all done 2 holes in 35 mins, other guy it took him 2 hours. Mine came out better too and tool life better, reason should be self explainatory
Hi John, thanks so much for your time in making this videos for all of us who are interested in CNC machining as a business alternative. Could you point out, to have a rough idea, how much would the customer be charged for the whole process of CAD/CAM and machining ? How´s the markup on raw material calculated ? Thanks again ! Regards from Patagonia !
Thanks for your reply ! So this piece would range between $120 and $200. So in the end it becomes sort of an "eyeballing procedure"... I´m trying to create a spreadsheet to rationalise pricing, taking CAD/CAM hours and material cost into the equation.
I want to know what you do with waste? I am thinking over time if worth melting the waste down to get like another aluminium block in time instead of throw away as some of machined things you machine a lot off
While you were playing on the cad, my part would have been finished! Just program it at the machine in g code. It's just a basic part😂😂😂🤣🤣old school buddy👍🏼
It would have been trivial to make this using the conversational CNC on the Tormach too, but that's not the point. 20 minutes in cad lets you turn the customer's scribbles into a dimensioned PDF drawing you can email to them and get them to approve before you make the part. That is the kind of thing that will bring a customer back and they'll pay a premium for it.
That is simple, but thats how you learn the software. Programming G and M takes 1 typo and smash. In a year of practice he'll be faster than you and no crashes/mistakes
NYC CNC awesome! Let me know if you want to try it out on some titanium or blade steel - I'd be happy to send you some! I have plenty of spare 4-40 taps, though mostly just "general purpose" ones
NYC CNC When the stock height is the same as the top of model I have had the drill and spot drill rapid straight into the workpiece because the feed height and retract height are the same. The tool path stays yellow just like in this video, once I reduce the feed height to less than the retract height the drilling part of the toolpath turns green and everything is sweet.
I am an a typical engineer always interested in costs and such. Can you work from a 3D DWG file or do you need a DXF' is your set-up cheaper for these? For the set up that you did how much time did you use looked like 10 min. on the video? What percentage of cost was set-up, materials, and manufacturing? Was this a single unit, and how many questions did you have on this project
heya thanks for the video, sorry if you answered before but what program are you using with the touch screen? is it a custom interface for mach3 or something else? thanks!
OMG I love your saw table....any more info? I just upgraded to that saw from an abrasive saw. I really like the saw except the table is a complete piece of unlevel garbage.
It's very impressive watching you fly through the CAD and CAM like that.
Agreed. Definitely inspirational
I hope anyone who is considering taking a big loan to buy fancy equipment that's going to take a lot of work to feed it listens to John's sage advice. Start small, and be patient. The biggest investment you can make in life sits on top of your shoulders. I remember only 5-6 years ago watching John squatting on his apartment floor to operate some equipment, so the guy speaks from experience. A few years isn't a long time in the grand scheme of things and you'll learn so much in that time it sometimes all feels like a dream.
John have you considered using spotting drills instead of centre drills for spotting holes? The spotting drills are specifically designed for that purpose (and obviously the centre drills are designed for, well, drilling centres for the lathe). I find the spotting drills are more accurate and rigid. A smart guy can also run them down deep enough to leave a chamfer on the hole after the hole has been punched through, so saves an op. I know a lot of people use centre drills, and obviously they work, but apart from the above advantages, the small ones have a nasty habit of snapping the tip off, and the broken tips can be a PIA to get out of the piece. The angles are also wrong for the following drill.
It was really really great what you said about doing great work with what you can afford at the end there. Roaming around forums will deliver nothing but smug big shots who only tell you that you're wasting your time starting a business if you don't have a 1 ton, servo driven VMC.
Couldn't agree more with your talk at the end. I consider everything leaving my shop as a reflection of my shop and myself for that matter and I don't want it to anything out associated with me that isn't done to the best of my ability. I know I'm not perfect but I take pride in my work and it's nice to see others that do too.
Great video John! I appreciate you sharing some insight into the business aspect of what you do, in this day and age of instant gratification, it's hard for any of us to have the patience to grow slow... Appreciate your wisdom.
Could not agree more, do not go into debt, I have not officially opened the doors but I started purchasing lathe, mill and tooling 7 years before I retired from the army. I got a real nice setup and owe no money. Just go slow
Thank You for taking the time to describe how your job shop does business and the care and respect you show in helping your customer. Many will not take much time to dicuss this issue at all and sometimes actually seem to just be secretive. I have always believed that a part should look good to a machinist when made care being given to finishes and blends and so on. In fact I think it is important to make it better than asked for if it only takes a little bit more care. If we are dealing with someone not a expert we want it to appeal to them with how the part looks and functions. A novice can tell quality even if they are not schooled in our art.
Lew Sou Wow the computer generation seems pretty complex. You breeze through it and make it look easy.
Thanks so much for posting this real world example, I would love to see more of this if possible. You rock!
I was glad to see you using a flex arm tapping tool. I have a different brand that I picked up about ten years ago and you couldn't get that unit out of my shop. They are fantastic for allot of operations but nothing is better for pattern tapping plates for special set ups. Great video, Thanks.
Tom Meeker Tom what other operations do you use this arm for? I've seen them around but never used one, and have a couple of Tapmatic chucks for tapping, so I'm interested in what else the arms could be used for. There is an article in a British magazine, out this month, on making one and it doesn't seem especially tricky.
Pete F The unit I have is manufactured by or at least branded as ARO. The arm is not difficult to make but if you do that the issue will be locating the inline pneumatic tapping tool. The tool is activated once you close the paddle trigger but it doesn't engage until you move the tool towards the work and retracts when you pull it up. Generally a good one of those "guns" will run you about $400-$500 US dollars for a new old stock sitting on someones shelf but retail is about $1300. If you watch Ebay for "tapping arms" sometimes you can find them removed from service for a few hundred dollars complete.
I use it great deal for very small taps for robotics and animatronics. Once you get comfortable with it you can safely use very small taps. The tool is always at a 90 degrees to the table surface. As long as you clamp or hold the work so it is parallel to the worktable surface your taps always drive straight .
Tom Meeker Thanks Tom, you mentioned that the unit is fantastic for a lot of operations, so does that mean you use it for things other than tapping?
NYC CNC Oh reaming, great idea, I hadn't thought of that one. ... just as long as we don't see those adjustable reamers again :)
Pete F I use it for tapping, reaming, deburring, counter sinking, and occasionally even drilling holes with high number drill bits that dont hold in my press chuck very well.
You have some very good advice. First of all pursue excellence and exceed your customers expectation and if you've been smart enough to stay out of debt you can't fail to succeed. Word of mouth has and always will be the best advertisement there is. Pay cash for it as you go, oh granted you won't necessarily have the latest or newest but during hard times you will keep your doors open. If necessary you may have to sale an asset or two, but by paying cash on the barrel in the past you have the asset to sale! Word of mouth will always be the best advertisement you could buy and will keep you in the black.Years ago my father and his partner attended a Beechcraft fly in, for owners of Beechcraft airplanes. They arrived in an older model single engine Bonanza. Theirs was the oldest airplane there. There were several twin engine models., and pressurized twins and they felt pretty insignificant. As the evening wore on and they met the other pilots it turned out they were the only people there that actually owned their plane. Everyone else were just making payments to the bank.
Thanks for another great video! I just discovered Clickspring a couple of weeks ago and that guy is amazing! All that in a 6' X 12' shop! Thanks for giving him a mention.
Excellent advice! Irony is the first thing I needed made was a block pretty close to what you showed. Most production shops wouldn't touch one off's, and I didn't know about job shops at the time. So bought an Index Milling Machine and a LeBlonde lathe. They are approaching 50 years and 75 years old, but still making chips!
Old timer's TIP: Save the combination drill bit and counter sink for lathe work. Use a spotting drill in the milling machine. Short stubby, and leaves just enough countersink after drilling/tapping operations to leave a nice finished appearance. Do the math once so you know for a 1/4" tapped hole, how deep to leave a 0.280" hole (simple with a 90 degree 3/8" spotting drill).
We have parts we run that get splines formed in them. We used to turn and bore them on the lathe then run a broach through them. Now we pierce and draw them on the 200 ton press then the robot transfers them to the 400 ton press. I use the vibration press stroke where the ram moves up and down as it forms the part.
Working for the other guy he worries about overhead, working for yourself you have to worry about the overhead. Figuring out what that overhead is by the hour is what is going to make the job profitable or not. Thanks for the video.
Quality video once again John. Thanks for your time in putting these out. Simple clear and concise instructions and advice, and watching a great machine put to work. What more could a man want!
this is inspiring. all the talk I hear people giving the tormach cnc's a bad rep, I watch this video and it shows how capable they are for a startup shop for the price.. it may not be a haas or fadal or the mazak i use at work but it looks like it works great for job shop small parts!
on a side note... those tap heads are awesome, haven't seen one in quite some time.
Wait till you use a Okuma. THose 3 machines your work has are garbage
John, McMaster-Carr has everything, and they do deliver fast...but in many cases there are lower cost options and it might be worth checking them out, especially if time isn't as critical. I've ordered from Speedy Metals and On-line Metals and gotten exactly what was ordered, usually cheaper than McMaster-Carr. Sometimes one is cheaper than the other on a specific material or shape, so it's worth checking both. Everything has arrived in good shape and well packed. Selection is pretty good too.
Thanks for the vid! Don't know if I'll ever try job shop work, other than for friends, but it's good knowing more about it. There's no such thing as useless knowledge.
-- Mike
Price isn't the only consideration all the time, but it's a frequent contender! ;-)
Love the gopro mount for the vise. The flex-arm looks awesome for tapping. I use a drill press with a tap head but any time you can do something offline it frees up the machine for more money making things!
John,
This video is very encouraging and realistic. Great advice. Also thanks for the reference to CZcams channel for Clickspring. I have been watching Clickspring for the last few months and enjoy the seeing crystal clear video for this type of work using affordable equipment.
Paul
Super excited to see that FlexArm running!!! Another video well done sir!
Seriously, such an awesome video once again. Thanks for taking the time to make it.
In qty 1 I'd have just started making the part from a hunk of material on the Bridgeport. Even with CNC, just use conversational programming at the mill to drill, helical bore, do bolt array, and outside profile. The Centroid control really excels at this kind of work.
My thinking goes like this: You don't make any money on one-off parts like this, the more thought and preparation, instead of just *do*, the more time it takes.
For any small batch job weather you receive a hand drawn part, Blue print, or a CAD file, I always send a sample piece so they can see if the part fits as it was given to you to produce.
I have always used a "circular array" for those types of object. That is, assuming they are equidistant from the center bore (which it looked like these were). Quick and dirty. :-)
I cant WAIT for them to tie InventorHSM(CAM) into the Fusion360. May happen, since that REALLY is what needs t happen.
I dont remember which of the 2 videos you uploaded today, but I think it would be good seeing the tear down, cleanup, and rebuild. Tormach maintenance is in a few channels, but it is always good to see the different approaches! The thing I see going well with yours is that you always do the quick, dirty, but effective approach. :-D
About 4 years ago I was approached by a man whom my father was very good friends with, who happened to own a machine shop. I didn't know what to do in life in 8th grade, so while we were at dinner one night, the owner offered me a job at his machine shop as long a I did my proper schooling for precision machining. Fast forward to last year, I signed up at my local vocational school for Machine Technology, which I have completed my first year, and I'm on my second year. Second years have the opportunity to go on "Co-Op", which is basically a get-out-of-jail card to go work for half the day, which I took advantage of to go to my father's friend's shop, doing mainly manual work, but some CNC work as well. In a few days I'll be starting, and I'm quite nervous and stressed out about it. It's a big leap from work I've done before, and don't want to mess this up. Any tips or suggestions? What about tools for the job?
NYC CNC , Today went pretty well. First part of the day was helping put up new light bulbs in the shop, but I eventually was put on a bandsaw to cut some pieces for a project. I'd say the only stressful thing about today was the commute there! Super nice people and a "laid back" and personal atmosphere. I will be continuing on my co-op as well as to try to seek full time employment if everything goes A-Ok! Thank you very much on the words of encouragement, and I'll always hang onto them.
I do hobby CNC and manual mill and lathe work. The hand tools I use most are a set of wrenches, allen wrenches, and a digital dial caliper. I recently got, after watching this channel!) a set of allen-wrench sockets and a cordless electric ratchet. (They are sooo nice.) A dial indicator with a magnetic base and an edge finder are must-haves, that's pretty much it.
You can learn a lot about machining from watching and asking questions. Historically this has been done, broom in hand, while sweeping the shop. Show up on time, volunteer for the crap jobs, wear your safety glasses religiously, carry a pen and notebook in your pocket, and write things down. You'll have a job in no time.
Last piece of advice: Never burn your bridges. You might not want to work for or with a person again, but they might know a guy who you would want to work with.
Well done. I want to get a hobby shop set up one of these days, but I can't decide what type of work I want to do. I'm interested in so many things (mech and electrical engineering, CNC, product design, 3D, animation, etc). I'm a digital product and UI designer by day and love all the great opportunities and great creative outlets that are becoming more accessible. Until I figure out what I want to do, it's great following your channel.
Keep it up - have fun and stay safe!
jaydekaytv PS - I'd love to see a 5-axis Tormach at a reasonable price sometime. Btw, I'm sure you've seen it but if not, check out the Pocket NC. Pretty cool breakthrough + looking forward to seeing things progress. NYC CNC
NYC CNC Yeah, it's super tiny - ha! Looking forward to seeing how things progress in this area...
Thanks for the tidbit.
This video is fantastic, thank you for sharing your knowledge. I'm envious of your f360 skills, especially all the cam setup stuff! I'm gonna need to hit the tutorials. It looks like an amazing tool.
Thanks John. this video literally stop me from being an idiot. going slow IS an option. thanks man..
This is our shop all the time! Onesies, twosies, one hundreds!!!!
Fantastic video as usual John, and great advice at the end. I sure hope someone tapes yours and Grimsmo's presentations at the Tormach open house event. Ciao.
Chris from Clickspring does amazing work, his clock project has me watching them over and over. Difficult to think it's just a hobby to him
Great video too man, CNC looks really fast, I bet it's s devil to learn though?
Love those arms! we call it the "happy Tapper" :D
It's not a flex arm, it's very similar but bit heavier duty the air line pumped air in to all the pivots too so it felt like it weight next to nothing.
normally your spotting drill is only meant for lathes, when you pick the part up with a live center or between centers. that's why it has a 60° angle
For centering holes there are center drills with 90° tip angle. So you can center drill 0.1-0.2mm bigger than the hole is supposed to be and you dont even have to deburr/chamfer it afterwards.
matze1508 it's the other way round, spot drills have 90 deg points (or others) the centre drill is what is being used here. A centre drill is fine to use on a mill, and actually have better positional accuracy and finished hole diameter accuracy. If you centre and chamfer in one op (which I often do) you'll find that the drill cuts big at the top of the hole, also using a 90 deg spot will eventually knacker the edges of your drill if you're machining hard stuff. So spotting or centring is dependent on application. In ali I would always spot to a depth that would chamfer the hole.
GOLD. Thanks, John.
I could form the part on a servo press if I had enough tonnage and a way to clamp all the way around. We have a 400 ton press I can form counterbores and pockets. But the parts have to be run through the machining center and run a fly cutter across them. The metal I move has to go somewhere
I am a Clickspring fan myself. He does all the stuff he does with really nice equipment. I am simply a hobbyist trying to build a clock (which is why I watch him). My equipment not nearly so nice as Mr clickspring's, I had to build my own dividing head. You are 100% correct. Learn to use what you have. Learn the foibles of your equipment. Always consider make/buy tradeoffs. That's something you haven't much spoken about. It's very interesting video. You spent about 10 minutes on the computer and 10 minutes on the Tormach. Allowing for editing, call it half an hour. How long would a skilled machinist take? I'd say an hour. So CNC wins 2:1 Which is why it so popular. On the other hand you have to learn all those software packages, and I would rather wrestle rabid skunks than learn Yet Another Software Package (YASP).
Juan Rivero no the job he showed probably could be done on a drill press in 30 mins if the operator had all of the appropriate bits.
Thats weird software to me. He didnt show him squaring the block
I see lots of people pilot hole then helical with too big a tool. That worked, but if it was me i wouldnt bother pilot drilling, id just helical that with a tool a little more than half diameter of hole. Obviously be careful of chips and not cutting center so tools melts. The smaller tool gives it more of an xy move and room for chips to come out
Great vid dude, I really like your approach. 👍
You should use an actual spot drill versus the center drill you are using. You don't need the 60 degree to use a center on, so you end up just using a weaker tool for no reason. If you get a 90 degree spot you'll be able to feed faster and it will last longer. Great video!
Another great video John.
Still waiting for your video on the customized dewalt fixture you have.
Great video, John! Very good advice at the end.
It leaves a big ass burr on the bottom that gets cut off in the lathe but its much faster than machining them and we can hold 50 microns.
I was thinking about taking a CNC Machinist course at the local tech school. You really, really love this work. I didn't know there was such a network. Are there a lot of women in the business? This was just a wonderful video.
In the US, 97% of machinists are men. (BLS statistic, not made up.) If you like making things, take the course. "I made this" is an incredibly satisfying thing to say. Saying it as you pick up a useful tool you've used hundreds of times is literally the best.
Ive never seen a woman machinist. Ive seen on youtube female operators but i think they are just pressing start
John,
Great video. This very helpful to me.
Every body else,
If you like John's videos and would like to support him, you can find him on patreon and offer support him there. He take his time to make these videos and It takes time. I have been watching him for years and he has been very beneficial to me. I also am learning CNC and not too many people go this far to help. Thanks
Cool project. well said about the debt part.
One thing I noted is the four cap screws look to be backwards from what I expected.
Good stuff
I wanted to know if you could take a couple pics of your mod you did to the cold saw so I can replicate it. I love the videos bud keep up the good work.
Good business advice at the end.
Thanks for such an interesting video. I'm going to be starting my schooling and apprenticeship soon so I was interested in understanding more about the trade as a whole :)
Have you tried the new turning features that came with the latest update over the weekend? Looking forward to seeing your videos with the CNC lathe and F360 and comparing the goods and bads going between PathPilot and F360 CAM.
I never heard of that program. I use SolidCam, CorelCAD, metalsoft, and Enroute.
great advice at the end save money start small.
Thanks John for this.
Respect for you, SIR!
Until Clickspring came along you had no rival at all for production values, you are both producing fantastic videos.
Maybe he has previous media experience? Then again I suspect you do too!
Jay Bates woodworking has some excellent creative production and editing (and content).
what an awesome video! Very helpful.
Great video :-) Very practical and clean work :-)
Tip, use a 90 degree 3/4 spot drill instead and make your chamfer at the same time. Also reduces on snapped bits upon first entering part especially in stainless.
Hi boss
You Can click z axis on a plane or cylinder aswell. No need to make Lines.
John,
I've noticed lately that you haven't been using your tool changer. Is something wrong with it?
Great video as always.
I just started my company so it was interesting to listen you,!!
Hows your co doing?
I need to tell you/all Surfcam of the 1995 version puts this all behind. this all is very slow in programing, but it does get it done.
Nice video. Didn't seem to take you too long from start to finish. Looks like a part that could be done conventionally, but nice and easy to do that flat bottomed hole with CNC.
Manual you just plunge with a endmill size of CB, or grind a drill flat, easy either way
Awesome channel man!
Such an awesome video
Nice video enjoyed every minute
excellent video! learned lots! thanks
You were doing it "wrong".
For diametric design you should make sure that Objects like the center circle is black. Vlue indicates that not all dimensions are set.
And use depth to object instead of entering the depth of the block.
You can change the size of the block and the holes will always go through. In case you increase the depth of the block will the holes not go through when using finite numbers instead of selecting a face where to go to
Nice job, thanks for sharing
Great video! Thank you! My only question is what wasn’t mentioned. Such as 1)determining correct tool stick out. 2) no mention of playing with the diameter offset on the finishing tool for the bore. (If it was a tight tolerance, for example )
Any help with this questions would be GREATLY appreciated
Thank you
You want as little tool stick out as possible. The longer your tool is, the more prone it is to vibrating =) For doing a tighter tolerance, I'd use a rough pass followed by two finishing passes.
Example (metric)
Final hole size Ø20mm (+0.02 to +0.04)
Roughpass with two finish passes of 0.05mm. Aiming for Ø19.8mm.
Measure hole -> Might be Ø19.81mm
Offset the program in the CAM to your desired tolerance, taking in consideration of the measure you just got from the first roughing pass.
The reason for the two finish passes is to make sure you have NEARLY the exact same tool pressure every time.
@Schimtastic: @NYCCNC awesome video, perfect example of creating transparency about machine shops and manufacturing in general! #millenialsgetinvolved
awesome channel seriously makes me want to be a machinist.
NYC CNC i sell steel at the moment for a company in Canada. im the guy you call for that 3x3 6061, i wouldnt let you walk away with only a 6" piece though haha
maybe one day i will go get into it, your videos definitely inspire me to change what im doing. selling steel is fun and all but manufacturing just looks so fun, and incredible to watch.
Its fun when you start, untill you gain experience and realize how many idiots you'll have to deal with
So... how many Haimer tips have you broken so far? I've broken one and it's not a great feeling :(
People lack focus, been maching 15 years, ive never crashed or broken any indicators. Ive broken only handful of tools in that time. Always watch distance to go and focus, ive made mistakes but always see it before crash
Great channel!
I wonder what is your experience with intersecting holes like this in terms of burs. If the large bore was a precision dia. would you consider bore, flip part, drill and tap, and then flip back for a reamer?
awsome video!!
Super cool video. Thank you! What might be the time and price for this particular work???
Have you ever tried Solidworks? I find Solidworks easier to learn & gets things done faster.
I used to use Solidworks, but I use F360 now. SW is incredibly expensive (minimum $1000) and you need a separate (expensive) product for CAM. Fusion 360 is free for hobbyists or education, and a subscription is only $200-300 per year depending on if you get it on sale or not.
Another great video! Who makes your cooling system?
The Shear Hog can helix down into the part. Why didn't you thread mill the 1/4-20 side hole? Does the Tormach not do thread milling. Not being an internet jerk, just curious, as I'm considering a Tormach. Thank you
Hi John. I have enjoyed a bunch of videos from your channel, and it has been an excellent introduction to CNC machining and really made me want to wander into this previously unknown world. I also like your Arduino projects, as I am also doing many Arduino and Raspberry Pi projects myself.
Although the Tormach is my long term goal for a CNC machine, I plan to buy something cheaper to start with. One thing I'm sure you have mentioned, but that I cant remember or find is what type of fog style cooling system you use. What system is that?
Thanks, and keep up the good work :-)
On the shear hog bogging down, I think your ramp angle was significantly too aggressive. 5 deg max is my goto. :) I know what I would do on that part...but you and I have a different situation. I'd have drilled with a 1" drill and then come back with a 1" 4 flute solid carbide endmill. Obviously, that's easy to say when the tooling is donated, but I think the way you did it (save for the ramp angle) worked just fine for you.
Otherwise, excellent video! Oh...did you catch that you left .01 of the floor during adaptive and didn't get rid of it with the contour? :P
NYC CNC Haha it's all good. We all make silly little mistakes like that every now and then.
A VF-2 donated by Haas. We've chatted about it a bit before though I can't remember if I normally comment on your channel with this account or my KC CNC account. I work for The Geek Group :)
KC
Its the tool diameter is too big, pilot hole is awaste of time. I just made M64 eyebolt holes at my work. I helical milled 58 mm diameter with 31.75 mm tool with no pilot hole 130mm deep, didnt take long. Other guy doing same thing drilled a pilot hole then helicaled with a 38.1mm tool. With threadmilling i was all done 2 holes in 35 mins, other guy it took him 2 hours. Mine came out better too and tool life better, reason should be self explainatory
Hi John, thanks so much for your time in making this videos for all of us who are interested in CNC machining as a business alternative.
Could you point out, to have a rough idea, how much would the customer be charged for the whole process of CAD/CAM and machining ? How´s the markup on raw material calculated ?
Thanks again ! Regards from Patagonia !
Thanks for your reply ! So this piece would range between $120 and $200.
So in the end it becomes sort of an "eyeballing procedure"...
I´m trying to create a spreadsheet to rationalise pricing, taking CAD/CAM hours and material cost into the equation.
+NYCCNC John Saunders! ! your busted. . 13:04 you hit the part twice with the malet of location. .. you swore you only strike once!!!... haha
I want to know what you do with waste? I am thinking over time if worth melting the waste down to get like another aluminium block in time instead of throw away as some of machined things you machine a lot off
nice video! you didn't mention what was the price for that piece and how you would make an estimate for this very piece.
So roughly how many hours of labor did you quote the customer for this particular job that required CAD, CAM and fabrication?
While you were playing on the cad, my part would have been finished! Just program it at the machine in g code. It's just a basic part😂😂😂🤣🤣old school buddy👍🏼
It would have been trivial to make this using the conversational CNC on the Tormach too, but that's not the point. 20 minutes in cad lets you turn the customer's scribbles into a dimensioned PDF drawing you can email to them and get them to approve before you make the part. That is the kind of thing that will bring a customer back and they'll pay a premium for it.
That is simple, but thats how you learn the software. Programming G and M takes 1 typo and smash. In a year of practice he'll be faster than you and no crashes/mistakes
Okay this is way cool, it's combining my nack for model creations and my interest in metal working, currently looking for apprenticeships.
will you be video taping that how to small business with the Tormach and putting that on CZcams?
So what was the customers cost on this one-off. ?
that flex arm looks amazing - does it work with small stuff like 2-56 through 6-32?
NYC CNC awesome! Let me know if you want to try it out on some titanium or blade steel - I'd be happy to send you some! I have plenty of spare 4-40 taps, though mostly just "general purpose" ones
John just call me before you run it! I'll help you dial the tap holder in! You won't have a single problem! #ScoutsHonor lol
silentqueue Yes they work great for the small taps.
rotokid wwa
Solidworks is pricey but works way better
I will do a screen cast for ya on selecting Z and X axis I might redo that part as well just for fun
daniel lyall autode.sk/1OBczcz quick selecting of Z and X
autode.sk/1OBc6XQ part done the way I would do it misted the side hole
NYC CNC you probley new that anyway it might help some of your view`s
half inch drill best drill
Notice that the drill routines in Fusion do not work when the retract height is the same as the feed height. Rapid hole drilling isn't fun.
NYC CNC When the stock height is the same as the top of model I have had the drill and spot drill rapid straight into the workpiece because the feed height and retract height are the same. The tool path stays yellow just like in this video, once I reduce the feed height to less than the retract height the drilling part of the toolpath turns green and everything is sweet.
I am an a typical engineer always interested in costs and such.
Can you work from a 3D DWG file or do you need a DXF' is your set-up cheaper for these?
For the set up that you did how much time did you use looked like 10 min. on the video?
What percentage of cost was set-up, materials, and manufacturing?
Was this a single unit, and how many questions did you have on this project
If you are doing stuff in 3d, step is the standard.
heya thanks for the video, sorry if you answered before but what program are you using with the touch screen? is it a custom interface for mach3 or something else? thanks!
OMG I love your saw table....any more info? I just upgraded to that saw from an abrasive saw. I really like the saw except the table is a complete piece of unlevel garbage.
+NYC CNC can't wait!