when a game despises itself // Candela Obscura Review & Analysis
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- čas přidán 7. 12. 2023
- The Alexandrian Review of Candela Obscura: • Candela Obscura | Quic...
SUBSCRIBE: czcams.com/users/indestructobo...
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Bio
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Taron "Indestructoboy" Pounds is a game designer, graphic designer, music educator, Twitch streamer, and CZcamsr. He has earned an ENnie nomination for his work on Home-Field Advantage, and is an adamantium best-seller on the Dungeon Masters Guild.
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Credits
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Graphic Design & Editing: Taron "Indestructoboy" Pounds
Channel Artwork: Jeremy Luther
Channel Theme Song: "Dungeons of Canada" by Michael McGinley
Dungeon Map Background: Dyson Logos
#dnd #ttrpg #dungeonsanddragons - Hry
My Review in written format over on Flutes Loot: www.flutesloot.com/candela-obscura-review-by-a-game-designer/
out of curiosity, do you have similar opinions with the Lancer disclaimer involving their lore?
imo it's significantly different in that the one in Lancer seems to imply that individuals who make writings about awful things taking place, or awful characters/cultures doing their evil deeds, is an inherent sign of closeted wickedness of the writer themself.
_now that this line is far enough down,_ the one in Lancer kinda fucked with me personally bc it came off like it was making the argument that Orwell would have been a Nazi or some similarly dumb shit, even if the baseline message of 'make sure everyone's comfortable with the content you're running as a GM' is perfectly fine.
@@bluegolisano7768 I haven’t read Lancer yet.
good system, runs on v simplified d20 +/- 1-3D6kh instead of having advantage/disadvantage.
Lancer GM for over a year here. The game’s setting is a very leftist take on a futuristic utopia-in-progress. It’s a pretty neat setting and I enjoy running the game a lot. The lore and GMing guidance sections definitely contain a lot of soapboxing and preachy overtones. I’m pretty liberal myself, but the core book goes to great lengths to make sure you only run stories that the authors would approve of, which does rub me the wrong way. (It’s especially weird that the book also contains plot hook and PC group suggestions such as “you are an infamous private military company.” Lol.) The main galactic hegemony faction, Union, is painted as this genuinely good organization that wants to improve living conditions on all worlds, and is trying its best to do that. Despite some glaring flaws about Union which are indicative that this is not always true, the game’s designer and author have both repeatedly said online that “Union is good actually, trust me bro.” They give me the impression that they wanted to have their mecha cake and eat it too.
Yo, thanks!
Wish more content-creators would release the transcript for their more detailed videos.
Art should not be fragile enough that it needs to be blindly defended against all criticism. If you love something, you should absolutely consider criticism to make it better.
But does criticism itself make something better? Are all critics legitimate by any alleged standard, be it professional or personal, and are their intentions inherently benevolent or malicious?
@@commandercaptain4664 Critique itself is not dissimilar to something like, say, architectural plans - it's assumed that having those made before the building starts is a good thing, but that's not the case if the plans say to build the supporting walls out of papier-mâché. The plans need to be good (which I'm *not* using interchangeably with "positive") to have inherent value.
"Does criticism itself make something better?" Does one step finish a marathon? The premise you set is twisted. It doesn't need to. It's not supposed to.
Instead of "are all critics legitimate" you should be asking "when is it ok to invalidate someone's experience". Because more often than not, when you have to pick a direction, that's what you'll do to those that urge you to choose the direction you didn't pick.
@TheRawrnstuff But you set the premise that someone should “absolutely consider criticism to make it better”. My point is that criticism itself isn’t inherently absolute or toward the betterment of a work. Its basis is subjective and its reception is subjective, like a game of telephone, so it’s not guaranteed to be constructive toward improvement. As the axiom of “one’s trash is another’s treasure” speaks to this notion
@@commandercaptain4664 "But you set the premise that someone should 'absolutely consider criticism to make it better'"
That wasn't my intention to communicate, nor is that a quote of what I said. Criticism with the intention to ruin the end product is not good criticism - it's plans that tell you to use papier-mâché for supporting walls. That "one's trash" is no-one's treasure (except those who want to see the product fail).
On the "another's treasure", that's exactly what I'm talking about. Good criticism, despite how inherently valuable it is, must often be ignored just because there's also good criticism that just takes an entirely different approach. In conflict situations, at minimum one party must be ignored, and their expertise invalidated.
And even the OP wasn't saying _all_ causes for criticism must be fixed, but rather they should be considered. Will X make this better? Does it serve/follow my vision as the creator? Criticism is but a single step in a marathon, and if you intend to have the best possible one, you shouldn't keep skipping them. And you definitely shouldn't admonish those who help you take them.
@@commandercaptain4664 A turd doesn´t not become gold no matter how much you suppress critique.
Side-note, but I think we have reached a point where CR is going to have to address the out-of-control parasocial issues plaguing their fanbase, or I foresee some kind of boiling over point in their future.
Why would they address something that they entirely banked on? It's working out perfectly for them - the only criticism that will accomplish anything has to come from outside of itself.
I don't really follow CR, could you explain?
@@MrNoface0 Look at any footage of them publicly at cons, the people who self identify with CR are genuinely unhinged. Their behavior regarding anyone that isn't an original cast member as well as CRs business practices, something or someone needs to give them a reality check - being a group of prominent voice actors doesn't absolve you of accountibility. They were also extremely whipped in their public statements in regards to Wizards of the coast's licensing bullshit.
I doubt it. Either way it would never affect them. How would you have them address it?
@@Blurredborderlines 😂So because they’re not willing to burn a bridge with a Company worth a couple billion dollars and make a very rich enemies that is why you’re mad that’s funny I thought they did OK on talking about wizards if anything they did more than most of us because they made a book trying to present a counter offer to dnd
One of the best pieces of advice I've ever heard: "If you're gonna tell someone not to do something, but you're not gonna tell them what they should do instead, keep your mouth shut." I think if they wanted to address the problematic qualities of the genre, a "Here's how to tackle this subject matter tastefully" section would have done the job much better.
Oh hell yeah, absolutely love that.
Even then, they arent necessarily the authority when it comes to how one should tackle sensitive subjects. It should be decided and established with the people you play, not by a book made by other people
@@OneSpikeyGuy well also people who belong to a particular group aren't even unified on how it should be handle in a game. The problem with a lot of TT influencer cultures is the holier then thou art attitude when it comes to content in an RPG.
@KnightoftheRose98 Different situation though
@@OneSpikeyGuydifferent but also the same. How can you be expected to act "properly" if no one agrees on what the proper thing even is?
From what I've seen of the cast, they'd be really unhappy with the hate thrown at critics, which I'd think is pretty ironic
It's also ironic that the game says it's immoral to roleplay an insane person, but every member of that cast does it, and has done it and has done it in voice acting roles, for money, multiple times, and matt does it on critical role when he plays mentally ill characters, and now they're going to tell us it's wrong when we do it?
@@bonitabromeliads
Meh, I don't have time to watch critical role, so I don't really know about what goes on during their game, But I will say a defensive actors in general, playing a character cuz it's your job is just doing your job, , which is not the same as playing a mental leo character in a game for funsies.
Well that sounds like they may have been pretty ham-fisted, and did not really do a good job of it, it seems like their goal was to be considerate of those with mental illness, and I generally don't get bent out of shape when folks try to put marginalized folks feelings over mine. So I'm keeping nda w/e about it
@@bonitabromeliads Celebrities being hypocrites? Never heard that one before!
Not throwing shade at you, it just that this is so common and obvious that celebrity worship in the US just needs to stop ASAP.
@@bonitabromeliads I don't know the context, and I'm inclined to agree with it being ironic/hypocritical assuming all that being all the context there is, but I will say that there are definitely degrees between "playing a character well" and "playing a characters insensitively". I'll not be saying that actors and entertainers always get it perfect, but I've seen how Brennan Lee Mulligan (very white) has played an Indian-coded character and I'd never been so impressed and intimidated by one's ability to roleplay.
So if they were just saying "if you're going to do it, do it well", that's one thing. If not, then it's hypocritical.
@@bonitabromeliads I don't think they're saying to not roleplay someone with mental disabilities, they're trying to make a statement that people with mental disabilities aren't less than, just different, and trying to separate traditional depictions of insanity from more modern understandings of mental disabilities, but they did it in a heavy handed, dismissive and patronizing way.
On the talk of roleplaying "insanity":
My family has struggled with mental illness as far back as the early 20th century. My father is Schizophrenic, my mom had extreme bipolar depression.
I have depression, anxiety and PTSD.
I've learned anyone and everyone can struggle with mental illness. Because of that, I really don't mind insanity in games. Our brains are easily messed up. It's the great equalizer. Rich, poor, right, left, any ethnic background, any location on earth.
All of us can go crazy. Before we even add stress to it.
I loved this comment. Absolutely nailed it.
Your bloodline has been playing life on hard mode, best of luck to ya.
Honestly it's a huge part of why Lovecraft wrote what and how he did. Both of his parents died in Insane Asylums and it haunted him his whole life, as he was convinced it was hereditary and "lurking in his bloodline" to take him too. Those who actually come face to face with these things are often more okay handling them, and those that are nice and comfortable tend to get upset on the behalf of those they have a savior complex for.
@@mightystu49 it's like the old phrase "Art disturbs the comfortable and Comforts the disturbed."
People don’t want to accept that but you’re telling the truth. Extreme strain substances and many other things can just give you mental illness. Some people act like it’s all genetic and stuff or don’t want it shown in games. As someone who is disabled I do not like that there are no blind people that there are no people who can’t walk in many RPG‘s. One of the only good things wizards of the Coast did was actually correct this to an extent. But only because they were the ones who largely caused it by getting rid of all tragedy for the player characters. They never really have to think about stuff like this unless you use the lingering injury table. Most things are one health potion away from being fixed
I feel like having the mechanic of inflicting physical or mental disabilities on your players characters being so core to your rulesets as to replace damage and health, but then saying "we don't think it's right to roleplay insanity" on the *same page* is really silly. Like what do they think insanity is if not a mental condition, illness, or disability? It's simultaneously discouraged and enforced on you by the rules.
I think they are concerned with how easily it can be a sensitive topic that ppl aren't open about till its too much and/or roleplaying it can be easily overdone and become an issue.
Maybe it's just a mechanic to give debuffs over time that you are supposed to avoid and it's not that deep
@@artorhen Either way they are employing the age old tactic of cover thine own ass. They know just as well as any of us, the designers have no control how ppl play the game, but by having that in no one can try to point a legal finger at them regardless.
@@kingsesaw Yeah but that is the thing its part of the game. You don't have to demonize anything we already know.
You're dealing with people who think difficulty = disability, and that if you "can''t" do something then it's not your fault, and this surprises you?
"They could've explored the horror of immortality if they don't want people to die."
This is literally what the Fallen London setting (another of the inspirations for Blades in the Dark) does. Which, coincidentally, is another cosmic-horror laden Victorian setting with occult elements. They decided they didn't want to include death, really, so... you don't. You just sort of get back up after a bit unless you get your head taken off or get cut into pieces or something similar. Which is something that's created some really messed up perspectives on death where people will kill one another for art, or as a kind of entertainment stimulus. It's not touched on super deeply, but it's there, and it's cool.
as a long time player of Fallen London... Yeah. That game does some really interesting things with Death, or the lack thereof.
Sounds like a less Scottish version of Highlander.
If Fallen London didn't limit your actions to real world action limit regen its writing alone would make it one of the best games of all time, the way it handles deah/immortality is a great example. The shit they do with the Far Shore is spine chilling if you ever saw it.
@@harismeld9411 If FL didn't limit your actions to real world action limits the entire structure of the game would split at the seams like an overstuffed bag because the sheer amount of grind involved in it would be exposed. It's a tolerable grind when you log in every day for a couple minutes, it wouldn't be if you had to spend a real world hour just doing the same few stories in order to gather components to progress a quest.
We have the Sunless games at least, which between them is about one and a half very good games.
Alot of GM's I see are scared of having immortality in their games, I just don't see why. It can be a very interesting plot point.
In a hobby where we imagine to kill sentient beings, it seems weird to try to draw a hard line on imagining having mental breaks and insanity.
People are killing each other now in the real world, and that doesn't stop us from enjoying action films and killing a fistful of sentient goblins...
This issue needs to be handled at table not in the rules.
Thank you!
JLC: Do you kill people?
Ahnuld: Yea, but dey were all bad.
-True Lies
Fistful of Goblins sounds like a great name for a fantasy Fistful of Dollars remake
@@lazydroidproductions1087 I would watch the hell out of "A Fistful of Goblins" movie.
I mean, darkest dungeon has a very similar system in their game, and it just works, it doesn't need to be realistic on how it happens.
lol the blades in the dark being behind you the entire time is great, i can almost hear it saying "play me not my imitation."
As CR and it’s offshoots put out more and more things, I’m left with an increasing sense that they are spreading their talents, time, and money increasingly thin, to the detriment of all their products.
Candela Obscura isn’t their first lack luster/underwhelming creation, and I’ll be absolutely shocked if it’s not indicative of what we can look forward to from CR in the immediate future.
I am definitely much more excited for what MCDM is doing than whatever they are doing
@@override367 I was until I got Kingdoms and Warfare. That book and ruleset is WILDLY undercooked. Even just the warfare system is essentially un-usable, making weirdly arbitrary decisions like cavalry units not appearing on the board? It can't decide if it's tactical or abstract. Really shocked me how bad the design work was.
I'm excited and happy that they are making original content/products, but I agree with you. I actually wish they would do their D&D games every other week to give themselves more time for Candela and other things. I know a lot of fans love their D&D playthroughs and tune in for them, but I think people would be understanding. They have been together around 8 years. There is a ton of content to watch/rewatch and people want them to take care of themselves.
@@override367 I mean, to be fair MDCM is doing their own system. Neither CO, nore Daggerheart are strictly *their* system. They're their *spin* on someone else's system.
The two aren't really comparable.
@@hawkname1234 I remember my first scroll through that PDF. And… yeah. I decided pretty quickly that even if I wanted to take the time to understand the rules, I absolutely would not want to spend the time trying to teach my players. It lives a quiet life in my Docs folder, periodically taking tea with its other underused peers.
How sad is it that this man had to do a full disclaimer to defend critiquing an obviously flawed game system just because it's associated with the Critical Role people.
When did their fan base turn so toxic and zealous that people have actually been blacklisted or threatened just for critiquing, not agreeing with, or disliking something produced by the company?
I used to enjoy CR and I'm even running a D&D game in Tal'Dorei, but at this point I'm ready to end my associations with their brand.
it has been this way since at least C2. remember when matt was sent death threats over a single character dying, or jesters age up. since for some reason people projected that she was like 12 when she was in her mid to late 20s before the aging thing.
it's pretty commonplace to make disclaimers about your words being opinion and that others shouldn't take it personally in reviews. Some of yall, including the reviewer based on his liked comments are being REALLY dramatic about this.
Same thing happened in Brasil with Ordem Paranormal. Bunch of big streamers/youtubers playing homebrewed exoterrorists/CoC ended up blowing up and they made a game system. Sadly the system is pretty flawed and fights against the feeling that they originaly seeked. But god, how dare you criticize my favourite streamer role-playing game?
@@abirdnamedwill the fact that it’s become commonplace to have to put up a disclaimer before what is obviously a person’s opinion is a sad comment on society.
Its not really fair to a brand/franchise to walk away from it just because its got psycho fans, literally every fandom has them, always had, they are just easier to hear with social media.
At first, when I saw Candela Obscura, I was excited- I mean, a game in which the "magic" users can tap into the supernatural at the detriment of themselves fascinated me. Then I realized that as the game went along, the story grew more compelling yet the game mechanics grew more muddled. No rules for PVP, avoiding damage, or how players simply just HAD other class abilities when there's no multi-classing mechanics. It's great as a show- but not as a game.
Not all games want PVP or multiclassing. That's a valid design choice. It's not one I fully share, but it's not like cutting those out makes something a bad game.
The game "Symbaroum" has magic in this vein, its there but its a violation of the natural order and managing that growing corruption is fundamental to, not just the wielder, but the world at large. Our table has only just begun playing but I'm quite enjoying it.
@@scmh1288Exactly this.
To my understanding he allowed a player to take a scar in order to acquire an ability outside of their established specialty. Almost like a hybrid class, rather than a straight multi. Which is a fascinating thought.
No rules for PvP and yet even in the demo games, it came up, and the GM had to make some calls. On one hand I like the attitude that you can go and change the rules to make sense, but on the other, it does feel like an omission. A lot of Powered by the Apocalypse type games seem to have this, GM discretion patches up where there simply aren't any rules, or the rules make no sense.
"Being born with empathy and a weakness for socialism and femboys."
Did you know that snorting protein shake out of your nose is painful? This line informed me of this reality.
that line is a mood xD
Way to prove his point.
Good job spending your time listening to this video just to find a single line that would justify you not having to listen to someone critique CR.
It's also completely disingenious the way you are representing it, you're trying to make it sound like he described other people like that, when he was describing himself.
As a fellow progressive who often feels I get more pushback from people who's opinion is slightly different than my own, than from actual right leaning people, I completely agree with him and very predictably and dissapointingly you've proven again that most progressives just want a damn echo chamber, rather than make actual progress on issues that matter.
@@edwino6655 Yeah for real, the way it's quoted is way out of context.
When speech informs you of knowledge totally unrelated to what is being discussed.
@@Harlizarrd It's not out of context. That's literally what he said and meant.
I've watched some of the episodes for the Candela Obscura shows and it's a great viewer experience, especially as someone not typically into horror.
Howerever, the arc of the chracters is very much a death spiral where shits gets progressively worse so I don't get why they would be so preachy about dark themes in the book. Also the Marks always caught me off guard and felt like "you character is about to die because I said so". I love narrative systems, which is why I don't understand the choice of quantitative damage on such a low scale (you go down after 3 hits max) if what you're interested in is big swings every hit.
I think any game that is going to tread "Horror-Adjacent" themes needs to contain rules for the inevitability and possibility of character death.
And insanity
@@mevensen ehhhhhhhh. I think sanity mechanics are overrated and overly focused on in gaming space.
@@HellecticMojo And yet, most times the mechanics are poorly thought out, not well fleshed out, not really enforced, or are easy to get rid of.
Dude - I have criticized you in the past for your analysis, but I think this was a pretty honest and helpful review. And maybe slightly courageous given some of the crazies online, as you mentioned. Anyhow - this helped me.
Same
If someone called my autism "mental scar" I'd hust look at the camera like im on the office
You're joking, right? There's no way they'd have that typed out into a book.
But autism doesn't appear from mental damage, huh.
You mean they really typed that in?!
Woah.
As an autistic female I'm really surprised.
“You have born witness to horrors beyond comprehension. Roll autism.”
@@lazydroidproductions1087I keep leaving and coming back to laugh at your comment.
Now I want to create a (satire) system where you have to roll different ND tables depending on your character's brain
I am a huge Critter and I find a lot of their more recent stuff to be patronizing and preachy. Its a real turn off.
same.
it sucks so much.
C2 i could hardly wait for another episode...
but now in C3... have 3 episodes on the 'watch later list' and still haven't found time or the guts to do it...
and that CO thing they did last time...
heck i don't even want to know that.
Always were preachy. Not surprised
@@Xingmey I’m similar though it’s just been college kicking my ass more than anything, I still really like Bells Hells
@@Xingmey wait, what happened? Can I get a summary?
It's always been preachy since forever. Glad others are finally seeing this though.
18:45 you expressed this portion fantastically, lol. When critiquing stuff like this, it feels like you're forced to argue with both sides at once (not to say it's the same as being a centrist, cause it's not).
Have to say, as a long standing Critical Role fan I was hoping for a better system, but I'm disappointed. The streams have been 100% carried by the amazing DMs that can weave tantalizing tales, while a full set and lights are at their disposal to keep the mood going.
Good Review. Tidy and put together. Very well done.
To be honest, any system can be good if the gm knows how to utilize and tweak it in the right ways to engage the players.
Good stuff mate. Someone had to do it. You confirmed something I suspected, which is 'Why does this exist? Aren't there a ton of horror themed investigation systems already?'.
My read on this is that they did it so they could get some experience in the room with how to write full systems they intend to sell. After everything that happened with the OGL, they wanted to distance themselves and do something not-D&D eventually. So probably campaign 4 will not be 5e, if this holds. That being said, given the fact that neither this, nor their long-form actual D&D competitor look like they are going to be wholly original (1) barring inspirations, and 2)at the very least, CO is pretty heavily based on systems like Daggers in the Dark) it does kinda make it a little more complicated.
@@LoudAngryJerk Trouble is the fact that "BitD players who want a slight horror twist to their BitD game" is almost certainly a vanishingly small customerbase.
@@LoudAngryJerk I don't begrudge them for wanting to get away from D&D after that shit show, or the fact that they want to create a TTRPG. Only that fact that the scene if very crowded, and if you want to leave a mark, you've got to come up with something new, or at least a better take on something old.
But apparently they did neither, which is what I was worried about.
Grognard here…thank you for your honesty and willingness to critique art.
I’m a Critter and I’m a fan of Taron’s. I also find it not only unnecessarily preachy but short sided and in poor taste how the authors/publishers decided to handle this.
short sighted is the expression.
@@Missiletainn I guess it’s not when I use voice to text lol
Thank you 🙏🏼
@@Missiletainnunless it's a Hobbit expression.
As a fellow empathic person with a weakness for socialism and femboys, I felt your complaints about not being able to complain about poorly written or unnecessary instructions on how not to play a game SO DEEPLY IN MY SOUL.
I'm not a personal fan of Insanity Mechanics myself, but that's not for really any "moral" reason, it's more just that in my opinion, insanity in the contexts that this genre uses is too complicated to fully turn into mechanics, but that's mostly due to the term being ill-defined rather than anything else. Good review!
I agree; the only time I like insanity mechanics is in visual media and video games. It's a lot of work to explain games with a logic that doesn't change midway through
Have you looked at how "Unknown armies" does it. I like it in there. Its pretty nuanced in play. (Great game btw. Dunno about the newest version, i played the 2nd ed. )
Also they linken it to IRL mental disabilities when you're literally pulling from a mental magic world, there's 0 reason why magic insanity has to adjust to medical diagnosis.
Oh I so love call of Cthulhu
I generally tend to just call insanity mechanics PTSD. Most of the time it just fits 1-1, and any exceptions are usually supernatural anyways.
First off, thanks for the review! It sounds like Candela should be more of a setting book/supplement to Blades in the Dark or Vaesen rather than its own system. Bummer how they handled some of the game design and sensitive topics and, as a critrole fan myself, hopefully you don't get any hate for bringing light to that. Most of those can probably be handled via a solid session0 or just an adult conversation at the table with the DM/players.
Keep up the great work as always!!
It’s pretty wild that they want to preach while providing actual mechanical rules for physical disabilities like it’s no big deal. You nailed it when you said there’s a legit conversation to be had in the game industry, but they really bungled it by acting as if they alone know the answer. There are ways to have this necessary conversation and this ain’t it.
What are the ways? I’m unaware of any debates held in gaming conventions outside of changes in the industry.
An absolutely professional review, and I'm seriously impressed by the willingness to go against the advice to just avoid the shitstorm altogether with the mentality of "I know this will rile the portion that dont think CR can do any wrong, but even they can admit that they do."
So, if I heard you right, characters can't be killed in combat unless the GM decides they should be killed?
If that's the case, and this information is available to players who actually read the rulebook, the question then becomes; if my character dies in a combat, why should I trust that the GM didn't have some kind of personal motivation behind it?
Like, sure, it's not fun when your character dies randomly because of a bad roll, but at least you _know_ the dice are impartial.
It's more that the game/dice roll removes a character from being playable. It's up to the GM and Player to decide what that means. You could end up dead, or damaged so badly that you retire to write your memoirs.
I mean, at least one other narrative RPG has a similar clause. I think the spirit of this is that the "story" of your character matters a LOT on if you and the GM decide whether being taken out of the scenario is more narratively satisfying if your PC dies, or suffered grave trauma and can't operate in the Candela Obscura capacity anymore.
And since this is more horror leaning, there's an implicit amount of control you are ceding when you play a horror trpg. Creating the "Horror" atmosphere gives more agency to the GM to take the reigns and drive the story. You have to trust that your GM is gonna do what's more narratively satisfying, and if you don't feel so, safety tools and out-of-game talk is always on the table. Sometimes death IS the more "fun" way to go, and the game lets you make that choice.
Also, if your GM is using the horror trpg to enact some kind of personal retribution... That's not on the system at that point.
Pff, as if. My dice have a seething hatred for me.
@@TheRodentMastermind the issue isn't that characters can be "retired" instead of killed when they run out of hp (or scars or whatever). That's fine, plenty of games do this.
the issue is that there is no actual mechanic for determining if the PCs beat a monster or opponent in a fight. The players roll as many times as they want (or, more accurately, as many times as you demand). If they fail or get a mixed success, the GM can cause then to take damage (but it's not required). That's their lose condition.
Their win condition is when the monster/villain dies or is otherwise defeated, but that only happens when the GM decides it. Its not like rolling a certain number of successes will earn you a win, The GM is supposed to just choose a moment that they feel to be "narratively satisfying".
So if you kill a PC, it literally can only happen because you decided it would. You decide when they take damage and you decide when their attacks are not enough.
And since the book fucking spells this out for everyone to see, it really seems like it would just make combat feel an extended game of "Mother May I?" You KNOW the entire game is rigged. How could there be any tension?
@@chastermief839There are mechanics for this is the Countdown, Consequence Countdown and phased countdown die. Basically each high stakes moment is given a set modifier, say…5. If you get a mixed success you reduce that by one, that’s functionally the hp of the monster and they have multiple phases throughout a single scene. Once it hit 0 the scene reacted in accordance to the combined efforts of everyone involved and created ample amounts of tension from scene to scene. In my first CO game which went off without issue and was an amazing experience for everyone involved.
I did phased die which indicates the creatures hp and consequence countdown die in tandem, which essentially represented when a player would take a mark and when the narrative would move forward. It’s really not that difficult to do or run, and it’s literally in the book. I also personally created more stringent rules for the damage of certain items like a knife vs. a gun and what varying levels of success really mean.
If an angry mob of critters comes for you, i would like to rage
“I just had to be born with empathy for socialism and femboys.” 😂
I like this review. I feel like you were pretty objective about the things that were missing and fair about the parts that you found uncomfortable to you. I will absolutely be looking at Vaeson now
I was one of those people that was kind of disappointed that CO was kind of a reskinned BitD/Vaesen and made my opinion on that clear before they clarified that point. I had a Critter (I too am a Critter) say that CO was better just by the nature that it had a space on the character sheet for the character's pronouns. Now I'm fairly liberal myself but I thought that argument was so stupid, because I didn't see a need to put my charcter's pronouns on a character sheet, it's my character I know their pronouns and if I ever forget that, I'm in really big trouble.
I can’t really be bothered about that particular on a character sheet. It’s like being mad over a section made to list spells when you’re playing a thief. I just use either for something else and move on.
Although I admit to being the type who does get upset about the lack of a character portrait box for me to draw in, but that’s just me.
Yeah, it's not like people haven't been assigning their character pronouns, vital statistics, etc. forever in the hobby with or without a space on the sheet to put it. You can just do that, you don't need special permission.
It's not there because they're worried you'd forget. It's there so you think about it during character gen instead of just defaulting to the normative choice
@@DefaultProphet If someone is going to play a character with non-normative pronouns, they're going to do it without being reminded by a spot on a character sheet.
@@benjaminhartsock3281 Not necessarily. I has no intention of for instance doing a nonbinary character in BG3 till I got to the pronouns slider
All games have their own problems. The point of refining a game is "can you make the bugs into features?"
They should have another year. Trying out new iterations. Do more testing. Then I would come back to this project in 2024.
I don't know why I was worried when I saw the thumbnail, because of course, this was another well reasoned breakdown that I appreciate and think is clearly proper critique. I am glad to hear someone cover this and hopefully they take some of the feedback in board whenever these rules eventually get a revision. Absolutely going to be playing Vaesen instead
I've never heard of Vaesen, but it sure looks like an English spelling of the Swedish word "Väsen" (to me), which in this context I suppose I'd translate as "Creature", "Essence", or "Noise".
*Tangent:* Swedish is a mess of words that mean different things based on contex, like "oväsen". The "o-" here works as a negative like the English "un-", but "oväsen" generally refers to an "unwelcome noise", while "väsen" is a neutal amount of noise, because no one calls a thing an "uncreature". Example: trevlig = nice. Otrevlig = not nice. *End of tangent*
Anyhow, a fitting name for a game with what from the cover looks like supernatural creatures in it. I'm going to have to check it out!
I agree that the lack of an explicit “Dead or Retired when you get your Fourth Scar” is an unfortunate omission, but it is referenced on Page 74 in the core rule-book “When a member of Candela Obscura acquires three scars, the risk of them gaining a fourth and fatal scar is incredibly high.”. I agree that the book (and some of the creators’ videos) are “a bit too preachy for my liking” but still think the game and its setting are excellent and the creators are clearly well-intentioned. It’s never going to be easy to raise these topics without either going too far or not going far enough. The rules are very simple (which suits the intended short campaign form very well) and very easy to teach to new players. I’ve played with a couple of different groups already and had a lot of fun.
That CR is swinging above their intellectual capability is quite clear. I was so excited about some of the C3 characters supposed issues and traumas and later also the main story but I've had to tap out once it became clear that the depth of it all was just cosmetic. Although in some fairness, as much as they seem to have a capability issue lately, it might also be fear of their own fans that is holding them back.
they courted that audience, it's their own fault really.
It was pretty obvious already by how awfully designed things like Blood Hunter were. Matt Mercer does not simply understand game design.
@@bobhill-ol7wpyou are legit mentally ill for saying that
not touching bhunter with a ten-foot pole, nope, it's got real holdover pathfinder energy and doesn't not mesh with 5e in the least. @@bobhill-ol7wp
C3 is just boring. It is SO DULL. The characters are bland and uninteresting. For a campaign with apparently super high stakes, ie the death of all the gods, the characters spend a lot of time doing absolutely nothing of note.
For what it’s worth, I am a person with mental disabilities and I *hate* that RPGs go out of their way to say “don’t play mentally disabled characters like an asshole” but NOBODY writes “don’t play physically disabled characters like an asshole.” It’s delightful to see a physically disabled gamer address that.
This review is well put together. I've been enjoying watching all three chapters of Candela Obscura, so it's a shame that the rulebook isn't as good as I was expecting. I've been a long time fan of CR, basically since the beginning, and I'm hoping you're not put down by the community for this.
they hadn't even finished the rules when they shot those episodes so they're not even representative of the game in question
@@DaredhnuI mean that's cr in general. They just do whatever they want and put a banner on it.
Great review. Appreciate the candor.
Maybe they just have too many irons in the fire?? Glad they’re playtesting Daggerheart, hopefully they’ll learn from this.
I felt the same thing about the more "preachy" stuff. Having a note about the sensitivities someone might feel toward a subject matter and to be respectful is one thing. Outright telling people what to do or not do with regards to these issues really put me off.
I do like the game system overall and I look forward to seeing where they take it in the future.
Ok, am I the only one who thinks avoiding themes that makes people uncomfortable is ultimately self defeating to the community? Part of roleplaying is to be able to experience what other people not like you deal with. How are you supposed to gain understanding and empathy toward an issue if you simply ignore it? Further I don't think condemning people exploring dark subject mater is particularly helpful as I feel that responsible exploration of those subjects can be useful in gaining and understanding of it and to what it does to a person subjected to it....am I wrong on this or am I just a unreasonable jerk?
If you have a table that wants to explore responsibly I say keep calm and carry on. You're obviously having fun exploring and no one is hurt in the process so for all my two-bit opinion is worth, go for it.
The Dream Apart RPG had some really informative commentary about this. They were talking about cultural appropriation, since it's a game where players characters are all Jewish. They cited some scholarly works talking about how tiptoeing around the existence of a culture basically always results in some form of erasure. To my mind at least, the same applies to mental illness. Basically, if something exists in real life, it makes sense to depict it! Even if you don't do the greatest job, if you do at least a little research, you're becoming better informed.
You're not alone in this observation.
You're not a therapist. And even a therapist would need the person's consent to go through whatever process they think can help. Are your games really worth someone breaking down because you ran rough-shod over their warning they'd rather avoid X or Z ? If someone breaks down are you going to stop everything and help or just go 'muh muh too sensitive, your own fault if stuff happened to you and you haven't yet processed it, or you didn't process it how I think you should have' ? Unless the table is on board with exploring such themes and situations, the 'but it could do them good' cop out is just that, an excuse to not care and do what you wanted to do anyway.
And even if someone wasn't traumatized and is not 'triggered' in the true sense of the word, thickly layering some more of the same crap they may dealing with on a regular basis in their ESCAPIST HOBBY is no fun, especially with no catharsis in sight. I've been creating exclusively male characters forever at any table with a majority of unknown players because I just don't want to even take the chance that someone will just waste everyone's time throwing SA or SA-adjacent situations at me. Because 'it happens' and 'realism' (but most of the time their desire for realism apparently only extends to female characters being put in detailed dubious situations, for some reason). I'd rather be exploring the unknown, slaying dragons and plundering their hoards, tyvm.
@@childesinthev.761 Look the people I will play with a big boys and girls, they can decide what kind of a game they want to play with what kind of content, but having a community surrounding and playing content police is not something I look for. We don't need people to be our morality police dictating what content should and shouldn't be allowed in a communities hobby. Atleast not the point where no offensive content or themes are allowed anywhere. I mean can you imagine a adventure game system that is designed around the concept of not wanting to potentially offend anyone? Here is an example....A game not wanting the depiction of harming animals (sounds reasonable right) well there goes leather Items and armor, no scenes showing hunting and foraging, No hides for trade goods, no taverns serving meats, etc....if you go farther and limit content to violence, racism, bigotry, fascism, dominance etc....how do you make an adventure game when you can't have anything offensive in them....bad guys are supposed to be offensive. Take slavery for instance empires takee slaves in times of war whole countries have been built on its premise the Roman Empire, The Vikings, The USA , and just about any other country at one point or another have practiced it. It's a common theme in fantasy and sci Fi books for the heroes to be pitted up against it.....but it's offensive to a lot of people and that's the whole point. How are you as a GM supposed to establish an "evil" of a game world if you can't include any themes that will potentially offend someone? How are you supposed to write and publish a realistic game world or adventure modules with out using themes or subjects that are likely offensive to some people? Most people wouldn't like playing in an imaginary world equivalent to Mr Rogers Neighborhood. I guess what I am saying is that at what point is too far into being safe for the community is too far and at what point does that turn to absurdity? I mean it goes both ways if your games get too much into themes and too much into depictions of violence and nother themes that can be bad too....but should we have an authoritarian body dictating our content or should people be allowed to exercise common sense on what to include and how far it should go? I would like to point out that almost every form of media created for fantasy, science fiction, adventure, etc.... doesn't have a licensed therapist involved (or Hell not even an unlicensed one). You think Lord of the Rings books/movies, the Witcher tv/games/books, the game of thrones books/tv, or Stephen King novels...etc.....had Therapist involved in their creation?
I feel Candela is fine for them as performers with the improv experience to fill the gaps, such that they might not have noticed the gaps. I already have Vaesen though so getting this already seemed superfluous. Thanks for confirming that suspicion.
It might be that roles and specialties being all grouped up is meant to help a GM lead a group through charater creation at the table by going step by step. (Everyone choses a role together, then specielty, then etc...) In that case it would actually help the GM not flip though the book for every class but if you are not making PCs with everyone at the table I can see how that could be annoying.
It reminds me of how a lot of Games do their character creation, pretty sure Vampire did the same, in fact I would possibly say the way Blades does it is very much the outlier.
If you watch their character creation videos then it becomes immediately clear how the game is meant to be played. Keyword, collaboratively. xD
Maybe I should go make a 45m video about this 25m video...
@@saintnerdherder3569 But if you need to watch a character creation video to "get" how the game is meant to be played, and reading the book isn't enough, then it's a failure on the book's side. Most TTRPG books are structured around individual, not collaborative, usage, and it doesn't prevent a collaborative group creation. In fact, I'd argue that it enables each person to read the book by themselves, then come together to play. If the opposite case is a book that is structured around collaborative group creation to the detriment to individual usage, then it is a valid point of criticism. Instead of making a 45 min video, you could perhaps begin by providing a link to said character creation video, I suspect it would be more helpful.
@@myhr2320 I think that is a bad reading, all you need to run a character is take the character sheet for your chosen class and then run through the character creation. I see no reason why you would want to create a seperate section for each class.
I enjoyed watching the CO episodes on Critical Role. I liked the setting, but had not actually read the playtest rules. I was planning on picking up a copy, eventually, but after your review I will certainly wait for a 2nd edition that has more into it, or just go with Blades in the Dark or Vaeson.
A well thought out, even handed review - thank you
Vaesen is an outstanding game. And beautifully laid out too.
I like the setting and the playthroughs as well. I recently talked to a friend who doesn't think the game feels high stakes enough in comparison to CoC, etc. Now that there is a Darrington Press license out for people who want to write adventures or stream content, it's something that my friend and I want to take a look at and potentially publish under the license if/when we have time.
Can only recommend Vaesen as well. Excellent system.
@@HeatherVerhagenyeah, I’m definitely changing some aspects of the rule sets a bit. To make it feel better as a whole.
fully intend to go with BitD and MotW personally, this 'system' looks kind of mid.
So im a fan of CR, and im not here to attack or anything. I do respect you, dude, and im glad i found you channel a long time ago
Now, as for your review? You have every right to make this, and I'm glad you did. No one, or product, should escape criticism and no one should have their life threatend just because they criticize something. Im happy to hear of your two cents on this TTRPG. i bought it because i like the ideas presented in the book and from the show the cast is doing.
So, hearing you talk about the work in the book is good to see. Then, when it came to the latter half, i was very interested. I am disabled more on the mental side due to my neurodivergency, and yet your talk on the preaching that is done by the book is a bit of an eye opener for me.
Now what im going to say isnt me saying your points arent valid. What i am assuming is that the reason why CO comes across as prechy may be because of the fanbase of CR. ive seen CR get so much damn flak over the past few years (some warrented) over so many things that to me, and only me, the reason why they seem to be so prechy in the book is because they dont want to get hell from people again. But by trying to be careful, they shot themselves in the foot.
What i am hoping, is that CR can take these criticisms of CO, and work on making something better. I do feel that they can.
Totally agree. As someone who started watching very early in campaign 1 when the cast were very online and very available to fans, I've seen how much they've changed. What others are reading as preaching, I read as them being gunshy. It's also not just the fan base that has done this either (though they're clearly major contributors). Before I quit Twitter, any time CR was trending, it was not uncommon for people who were clearly not fans to levy accusations of racism, cultural appropriation, queer erasure etc. A little digging would often reveal that they were either creators of their own niche products or trying to get their own AP stream off the ground looking to peel off the fringes for their own benefit.
In any case, I'm not surprised that the game isn't good. I was wary when they announced they were getting into design space. I respect the cast as actors, but they've always been very poor with mechanics. Not that the cast is developing the game themselves, but I would expect rules-weak players in search of a product to publish would gravitate toward something like this.
Friendly advice, you spent too much time explaining yourself, like tou have 2 paragraphs explaining yourself without making your point
@@Noone-we9vb friendly advice, this ain't friendly advice.
I mean that’s understandable for them to play to their fears, but it doesn’t really change that the final product is obviously compromised by that need to hedge against outrage.
You can’t make great art while freaking out about what the nasty internet ghosts will say.
@@mjr8888 Not friendly advice : your comment is more annoying than anything and I had to pass multiple paragraphes to see if you even had a point in all that garbage.
So keep thing simple next time, Ok ?
I hope you now have learned the difference between friendly and not friendly advice.
I haven’t played the game, but it sounds like you make some very valid and reasonable points about it. I think anybody putting a new role-playing system out in the market should be wide open to criticism, especially when there is a question about whether it’s mechanics work or not or if it derives too much from other sources. It doesn’t matter who makes the book. Thank you for your well thought out presentation.
The second I saw the press for this game, I was disheartened because it was moving into the space currently being taken by Vaesen. My thoughts were, “But Vaesen already does this so well, and people are probably not going to find it now.”
But maybe I was wrong. Maybe now Vaesen will get the spotlight it deserves (as well as most of Freeleague’s catalogue)
Is a game without a failure state actually a game? It doesn't need to be death strictly speaking, but there *needs* to be some mode of failure.
Some parts of the rules (I read the primer) do feel preachy to me. I'm a filthy moderate, so anything telling me what topics to stay away from is generally unwelcome, fwiw.
Thanks for pointing this stuff out. I'd just as soon go to Free League or Monte Cook Games for something which scratches this particular itch.
I have schizoaffective disorder. I've experienced a lot of pain and suffering from it in my life, and I struggle with it a lot.
You have my *EXPLICIT* permission to roleplay an insane, mad, crazy, or "schizo" person, and to use these terms as you choose in your game. I also give you a free pass to make your villains madmen or to have NPCs suffer for their mental illness. To me, it's *fun* to roleplay a Malkavian or mad Warlock who's seen crazy shit and broken over it, it's *cool* to explore these things. And to think that you're making the world better by publishing a tabletop roleplaying game and spending your time lecturing your customers and prospective playerbase as though you're their parents and you're teaching them how to behave in the world is naive at best and narcissistic at worst. You should instead focus on a good product, and leave the moralizing about society to your free time.
Right, but the difference is that they aren't. You can give this permission. They're saying this because they can't imply that they can give permission. That's what's really being blown out of proportion here.
It's like they were THIS close to having a bit of an Unknown Armies rulebook vibe, but then accidentally just got weirdly preachy and moralistic instead, and as is often the case when that happens, the end result is actually screwed up rather than actually being beneficial to anybody.
I don't think they're terrible people for this or anything, but I'm not super shocked and it's a shame. I feel like some of this probably originated with the weird positions some of their fanbase puts them in and the ongoing fear of being canceled - not to say that their opinions are faked to avoid being canceled necessarily but I do think those kind of weird, unfair pressures can lead to people adopting worldviews that become really toxic and lead to very arrogant and blindly prescriptive ideas of what is or isn't okay that end up being pushed onto others.
It's a huge shame and also like... I'm not someone who's dealt with any kind of psychosis myself as far as I know, but as somebody who has a lot of mental illness stuff going on in general... it's not like everyone who was ever a bad person is mentally ill, particularly not in ways that flatten them into being two-dimensional, but the idea that a villain can't have become a problem by way of mental illness is just kinda... nonsense?
Like, this feels to me like it's a similar thing to people getting up in arms about not depicting asylums in horror fiction, and then being surprised and confused when an absolute ton of actual mentally ill people didn't agree. Like, damn, we don't generally love it when people who are not us, or even people who technically are, put out hard and fast rules about what is objectively right or wrong to depict in fiction.
You gotta wonder sometimes, who's the real "crazy" ones, between people whose brains are kinda messed up, and people who think there's some fundamental ontological value of Rightness and Wrongness to everything in the universe? At that point, forget whether we're talking about something that is or isn't ableist or whatever, do words like "crazy" even retain value?
I guess that just leads to the realization that context and intent and perspective define the concept of value itself, with the biggest issue not being "there are people who are not me and have different opinions" but rather "there are people who think they can objectively define what is good and what is bad and their reasoning is 'I get to decide because I have decided that I thought about it better than everyone else.'"
Always torn between being angry about it and just hoping people can move past it someday.
@@LoudAngryJerk What they're doing is paying lip service to neurodivergent advocacy. Instead of telling you how to practice safe RP (how to be tasteful and not enforce negative stereotypes) they're preaching abstinence only. And we know how well that's worked for Sex Ed.
So as I see it, whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must remain silent. They can either walk the extra mile, hire diversity consultants for these issues and develop a proper section on roleplaying mental illness. Or they can just not touch on the topic, which isn't the same as tacitly endorsing bad representations of mental illness.
This is the main problem I have with (Critical) role models: they aren’t allowed to be human. A social media society that demands everyone become a role model is even more dire an outcome.
Which is also why I have a problem with the phrase “It takes a village to raise a child”. Are you sure you want a village to raise your child? Because it will whether you want it to or not. That’s just the notion of nurture.
@GammaCyber1 : Sort of unrelated question, but something that I'm curious about now that the topic has come up. As a person with schizoaffective disorder, do you yourself ever roleplay "insane" characters? I could see it as a way to carefully and safely explore the idea in the same way that I've heard trans people roleplaying their preferred gender as a "try-out" before coming out to explore their identities.
High quality review. Confirmed some of my suspicions and corrected others.
Thanks for saving me $40. I appreciate it. Good video.
If an angry mob of Critters comes after you, I'll gladly throw myself in front of them. This was a good critique. Hopefully people will see it. 👍
PLEASE DON'T.
The best course of action IS NOT TO ENGAGE with any rage tweets, etc. will only serve to fuel spur of the moment reactions, and any response you make that is deemed (insert -ism, in-vogue-bad-faith-framing-of-current-events, etc.) will be used to implicitly attribute blame to @Indestructoboy.
More so, I would advise Indestructoboy to un-heart this comment and others pledging "defense", lest accusations of "brigading," "Siccing followers on...", etc. follow.
Don't feed trolls, or-- explicitly or otherwise-- factionalize the space. Unnecessary drama helps no one in the hobby.
Just ignore them.
This feels worth saying: some of us remember where you stood during the OGL mess.
There is a clear value in holding to your standards. It means that, when you *do* criticize a fandom darling, you have a history *of* those standards to point to.
Good on you.
Where can I learn about the OGL mess?
@@dawafflesupremeVideos from the start of the year, since that's when it happened
@@dawafflesupreme not to pint you away from this channel but I have found that "Dnd shorts"'s vids on it where very helpful :)
Very important points raised. Personally I think that Madness is a very interesting topic and you can't just shut people down from exploring. Roleplaying is a doorway to empathy and understanding. It is up to each table to establish their own rules, but what's certainly true in my experience is this: Forbidding people from discussing something is a bad idea. Language is the articulation of thought, and I will not have my brain neutered or muted because of one person's discomfort at something.
This is an excellent review and you have my thanks. I appreciate that you brought attention to the layout and structure of the core rules. Using space effectively makes the rules more lucid and easier to follow; not doing so just makes the game more frustrating to play.
Your critique of the authors’ approach to ableism is very solid. Mental illness isn’t a personality flaw and while I don’t think the authors intentionally conflate the two, replacing mental illnesses with personality flaws isn’t just absurd but arguably itself ableist.
While I don’t mind minor suggestions about approaching potentially sensitive content in text boxes, there has to be a point where the developer trusts that the adults playing at each table will apply those rules in a way that best suits their group. In short, just trust us!
I am honestly surprised that it came out so quickly. It hasn't been a full year since the OGL crisis. From what i have seen of it, it isn't a bad game, but it is not fully to my taste.
Should i ever pick it up and run it, i would certainly add things to it, like a larger damage pool, or ways for players to reduce damage, like maybe superficial vs Aggravated body damage like Vampire has.
That being said, i like what i have seen and hope it is iterated on further into its own thing.
They've been working on these games since Darlington Press was founded in 2020, way before the OGL crisis.
When you started talking about the GM decides when the combat is over that was it for me. These modern RPGs would save a lot of dead trees because they just need a single page of rules stating "This isn't a game, this is a bunch of friends getting together to make stories up and decide what happens." Which is fine, it's just not much of a game.
In any system the GM decides when the combat is over, what are you tripping about?
I feel that. Even other narrative games such as Blades have clocks for major adversaries. If its just going to be GM fiat, why play at all?
@@HelloItsFlux Which after opening my CO book to the one page on combat, the next page was literally about countdown d6 for major things like.... combat
@cabl7787 dnd doesn't have roleplay elements, it has combat elements.
As a big CR fan I think you were fair, constructive, and clearly showing that you're trying to point out the games weaknesses without being harsh on CR itself.
While I do think it's a shame that the rule book has to be shown as a weak first venture on to ttrpg creation, I think you made a lot of very reasonable arguments towards why it could be greatly improved from where it currently stands.
I hope that all CR fans treat you with kindness as this review is seen by more folks in the community ❤
I actually kinda like the idea of mental scars being "a change, [not] a lessening", but I don't think they're really doing that themselves, based on some of their examples. Stuff like "lowered confidence" of "consumed by guilt" definitely feels like a clear lessening.
I think it would be interesting if the symptoms were more... orthogonal, perhaps things more commonly associated with neurodiversity. Maybe stuff like "distressed by people flouting rules" or "unwilling to wear fewer than 3 different colors". That would reinforce the idea that exposure to the unnatural really does not make you damaged or lesser, just DIFFERENT. Eventually even so different that most people can no longer relate to you at all.
Very well done, sir! I applaud your C.O. breakdown, and I am very thankful for the information. I was looking for an honest breakdown, and I am happy to say that your video was honest and tastefully done. Thanks again!
I feel as though we just listened to the first honest RPG review that has been made in a LOOOOOOONG time. Thank you! Subscribed.
This is my first time watching one of your videos. For your layout portion of your critique, I cannot really argue with you. I took some design layout classes some years back so I have enough knowledge to understand where you're coming from and concede on your points that I would have been most likely blind to. Overall, solid video.
I specifically didn't buy it because Vaesen is the primary game I run in my home campaign and this looked like at best it was scratching the same itch.
Great fans when you need to instruct them not to be racist.
This review is very earnest and and thorough. I was worried at first but you are completely upfront and well researched/versed in what you are talking about. At no point are you being dramatic or hyperbolic. This is a great review. It also didn't seem easy for you to do so... yeah, anyone who is angry at you did not watch this video. Keep doing what you are doing.
Thanks for the review! It's a shame this was such a miss considering that it has some real talent behind it. Was interesting to hear your remarks re: progressive grandstanding in the RPG scene. As someone who also considers themselves a progressive leftist, it's a bit frustrating to see designers bending over backwards to lecture people on the problematic aspects of their chosen genre. I'd much rather they'd have just said 'hey, here are some suggested lines and veils to discuss with your table before running the game and during play' - I think that would have potentially achieved their goal while not coming across as too preachy.
The new MCDM book "Flee: Mortals!" handles this pretty well -- acknowledging in every instance where there is something possibly individually problematic (like body horror) that it may not be appropriate for presentation at YOUR table and then offers alternative ways to recast whatever that particular characteristic or trait is in ways that may be appropriate for YOUR table.
@@Aiglos78 Ah, that's interesting to hear! I've actually got that book but have yet to give it a proper readthrough. But that sounds like a good compromise.
@Aiglos78 At this point, games might as well be rated like movies. G for genial, PG for problematic guff, R for really you’re gonna go there, and X for FATAL.
Seriously, don’t play FATAL.
@@commandercaptain4664 Fortunately, FATAL is downright unplayable. Leaving aside all the content issues, I don't have the three years it would take to actually roll up a character.
Thank you for the review. I'm big fan of Forged in the Dark games family, but from the quickstart I have a vibe that this game is taking steps back rather than foreward and my predictions was, unfortunately, right. What a shame and lose.
Thank you for this insightful, and imo respectful review. The message on how to handle sensitivity in ttrpgs is definitely taken on board. And I appreciate how you continue to be a champion of pre-existing underappreciated games in this space.
It sounds like a future printing with more polish, more identity in it's rules and... Lets say experience with respect to handling sensitivities, could deliver a much better game, until then I think I'll give this one a miss.
I completely agree with you about the progressive themes. Something that stuck out to me about the quick start was that it has player characters taking from a culture that isn't theirs listed directly as one of the things you shouldn't do, but it didn't seem to make any mentions of players themselves possibly engaging in cultural appropriation. But when a player is doing cultural appropriation and when they're respectfully engaging with someone else's culture is a much more difficult question to answer because people engaging in appropriation often don't do it out of maliciousness or conscious racism. It's also a way more important conversation for the ttrpg space to have, there's another orientalist dnd supplement coming out every other year, and people repeatedly misunderstand the foreword to Coyote and Crow to mean that white people shouldn't play the game. So it just overall comes across like they're more interested in preventing difficult topics from coming up at all (which is bizarre for a supposed horror game) then they are in actually furthering progressive discourse
This was the first video of yours I watched, and not being familiar with your work I'll freely admit I was worried this was going to be "the sjws are running games with their trigger warnings", but I found your criticism very fair and well handled
Or maybe they expect people to be capable of using common sense, which might be a bit optimistic.
@@Dunybrook Clearly if they did expect every player to be a responsible adult they wouldn't have written that list of problematic things your characters are not allowed to do
"Cultural appropriation", to me, is a far right concept.
The "left" direction I took in life led me to believe we are all humas, race is a construct, we are all equals and share the same planet.
Diversity is a beauty for all of us to enjoy, not a series of trademarks and copyrights.
@@ChristianIce this is a nice sentiment in an ideal world but what makes it iffy for me are the actual material conditions here, where white people are far more likely to have the social and financial capital to profit off of someone elses culture then the people in question do. Granted this rarely applies to someone's tabletop character, but I think it's a question the ttrpg scene has to recon with and COs attempt to sidestep it just makes the problem worse
I don't see why you'd want to risk using the gilded die to replenish your Drive (if the gilded die is anything below 4). Just hit MP and MK (or R2 if you're using modern controls) whenever you think the other guy's going to go for a combo, or just take the Burnout and hit them with a Level 3, and you'll get the full bar back.
I have only just found this channel through this video, and I have to say I like your style, very fair review. I can see this video is blowing up a bit and I can only say that it seems much deserved, keep doing what you are doing
Your review seems fair and well reasoned, and I really appreciate getting your perspective on everything discussed. Thank you for sharing, and making me aware of Vaesen which I am now much more interested in checking out. Keep up the good work!
I felt the same way most of the time, so much of the game seemed to have unneeded changes, just for the sake of changes. As for the CR community, yeah, it's always kinda been the same, the para-social "Don't criticize my friends!" level is wild when it comes to CR. Unfortunately, the cast and LLC has just let it slide for so long that it'll never change (see League of Legends lol). The same can be said for their fairly frequent price gouges taking chunk after chunk from the gaming community. It sucks, and I wish it was different, but its not, and it won't be.
This is really well put together. Thanks for your input man, I was curious about this game but now I really just wanna play Vaesen lol
Thank you for the great breakdown! After seeing the quickstart & preview tidbits early on I've wanted to see a good review of this from someone who has interacted with stuff like BitD enough to make comparisons. There have been bits & pieces I've seen about it that looked interesting because I've seen those types of mechanics & wanted to see how they slot into a different style of system like fate/BitD/etc. It's disappointing that the implied behind the curtain fresh take wasn't there as implied monyths ago
Appreciate the review, and I'll say you handled criticizing the "Legacy of Harm in Horror" section beautifully.
Surfing youtube and painting minis, stumbled across this video.
Oh boy I have so much I want to say, but I don't want a dissertation.
So I think I'm going to put it like this. Disco Elysium is a game. If you need a hook for how to do madness, you can start there.
I think where they are getting massively tripped up is that they think it's socially unacceptable to say that a persons inherent nature causes conflict to any degree.
But, that's like what stories are, and it's kind of hard to tell a meaningful story with protagonists without flaws.
It's also a massive kick in the dick to say that ONLY protagonists without flaws can overcome obstacles and be heroic.
This kind of genre, one of the draws, for me, is that despite being massively disadvantaged, a measure of success is still possible.
Also, I want to throw this out there, saddling a PC with Depression or PTSD or Bipolar and having them deal with it mechanically, I WANT them to be feeling "Man, this fuckin' sucks."
Like, I know, right?!
Yeah, this shit can be sensitive, but that comes with the territory.
Saying that exploring these themes is wrong, especially in this genre, is like telling someone they are enjoying the thing they like in the wrong way.
I hate that CR are so careful and try to sanatise everything because some of their fans like to think they have media literacy, when really their way of understanding nuances is stifled because of their own inner biases. As a fan myself I see it all the time. It's all so reactionary, they don't take the time to sit and digest something, especially if it goes against their preconceived notions. It's frustrating and annoying to think that the cast are actively tamping down on certain themes or plots because their fans will blow up at the slightest thing.
Anyway, great review! I've immensely enjoyed watching the CO streams that CR do themselves, and it's a shame that the book doesn't live up to that, but maybe they'll take the criticisms and make the next version better.
look what is going on with C3. they are on one of the the most culturally interesting continent on the planet but instead they sanitized it to the point it does not resemble what we read about in any CR books.
Hello! General CR fan here (no I haven’t been keeping up) who has been excited about candela obscura for a long time, and immediately got the limited edition (even tho I think the regular edition is prettier) when the opportunity arose.
The moment I saw this video in my recommended I saved it to my watch later. There was the little note of apprehension that this was a view-chasing video (sorry, wasn’t familiar with the channel name and the thumbnail and title were a little sensational for me) but I knew if there was anything valid in here I’d like to see it anyways.
The moment I clicked onto it, I realized I was fine, because I’ve seen you before, and to top it off, you mentioned the original plan was to review it before you realized you had to switch track.
As of now I have only gotten to the part where you mentioned knowing despite this video you know people will still buy this thing and hi! That’s me. Felt I should comment from that standpoint. First of all, before any of that though - I am sorry for any aggression you get for this video.
I will just explain why I purchased Candela, and why, even if it is unfinished and even if you objectively find it lacking, I still would have. 🙏
I am one of those “doesn’t have a lot of experience outside of dnd” ttrpgers (I know, popular to bash on twitter). But the caveat there is I do play non-dnd (I’ve done gurps, zweihander, dungeon crawl…) it’s just a matter of having people willing to learn a new system and buying into a new set of books, etc etc etc… the other aspect is general unawareness. I love the concept of other ttrpgs! Even if I love dnd, I like to explore and if I don’t like a mechanic, there’s always room to adjust it in my book.
So enter Candela Obscura. Some time ago, Talesin from CR did a horror oneshot session that has been a background muse for me for some time. On and off for years I’ve thought about writing a horror one shot. But lacking the time, energy, and dedication, it’s just been a project I pick at from time to time. Hearing about Candela brought all that excitement up. Yes, it may well collect dust on my shelf - has, already - but that’s not necessarily product fault in my case. I’ve been watching Candela Obscura since they started releasing the promo videos, and I love lots of vibes, but off the batt I knew I would be adjusting things to fit my personal preferences if I hosted.
So when I made the purchase, it was with an understanding that I wasn’t getting a product that I would use in its entirety. That however perfect the product could be (I tend to assume my tastes are the problem) it was an imperfect fit for me. And you know, supporting content I like, etc etc.
Why comment all this? Well, I guess to be a voice that might not be common in the comments. I am a fan of CR, I have no ill will towards you and hope no one else does, I’ll happily listen to the video and take everything you say into account (honestly, this is almost research for me when I do get a game together for things to be ready for), and someone who still supported the product anyways. I mean, it would be too late now to not have, but you understand what I mean.
Ok, sorry for the wall of text! 🩶
Dang, came for a tear down of a shoddy CR product and walked away with a lot to think about. I hope we get that discussion about certain prejudices baked into gaming. I think the attitude you talked about is what turned me off from CR a few years ago. Great breakdown and video!
Also guess I need to check out Vaesen? Because I want a non-Lovecraftian horror system that isn't just Biblical fanfiction.
I'm reading it now and it is a beautiful game. The feel, art, classes, talents. Fantastic.
Caveat: haven't played it yet. I like the codified success with failure of candela whilst vaessen suggests it as a way of dealing with failing but it's not integrated the same way and it is more binary pass fail mechanics. It also just seems much easier to succeed generally because you can end up with a LOT of dice for a roll.
Hopefully there isn't any hate sent towards you over very fair critics. As my friend said about the quickstart "it's Blades in the Dark, but worse." I personally don't have experience in either candela or Blade, but personally I think I may try blades some day for sure.
Blades knows what it wants to do and does it extremely well, you want a game about heists? You play BitD. The clocks system is pretty great, the flashback system is both cinematic AND lets you skip past the infamous Analysis Paralysis that haunts the planning stage of a heist (you know, where players will set around and eventually devolve into planning in circles for every eventuality).
I'm no longer especially interested in CR, there were lots of telling signs of their fall-off at the inception of the pandemic, but it is difficult to steer outward from personal preference when that reach expands in the space they occupy. I had the suspicion from the moment it was announced that Candela Obscura would not provide a lot.
Maybe I am just jaded, but I look at these attempts and my immediate thought is: a game runner is not a game designer. There are already some criticisms to be levied at how their table space is run. Obviously they are hiring talent and making use of the company by brand name, though the directorial decisions are coming from in house - that means fundamentally, because CR see how well they can run a show, they also believe they can run the foundation of such a show for everybody else. They showed no tentativeness in their expansion towards physical media, and products, previous releases of Campaign Settings via Tal'dorei and Wildemount, are not an expression of the developmental process of a system from the ground up.
Dungeons and Dragons, and most of all others TTRPG systems have taken YEARS of development, with team veterans and MANY iterations to become as laudable in the space as they now are - it rings of deep conceit to me that they can openly place their hat in the ring because of experience in a proximity medium. I feel similarly to other spaces doing the same, while I endorse a lot of Matt Colville's ideas I do not feel strongly for a TTRPG listed under MCDM's name, the talent and creative process might allow for something unique and interesting but the vein of comparison where these teams could be providing better and informed ancillary content for systems like Pathfinder2e, simply makes me shake my head. Paizo, Wizards and many more companies, did not up and roll out products as massive as full-scale system TTRPGs on the whim that they would 'contest the market'. Some amount of it is a gamble on bringing out an alternative, yes, but the only reason I can think places like CR are (able to be) doing this in the first place, is on name recognition alone.
Could just be me, but when I recognize the name 'Critical Role', I see a respectable creative platform for performance built on top of TTRPG development - not a cadre of developers whose games I would immediately consider my money upon.
thank you for the incredibly thoughtful review; I had my doubts about this game and you very tactfully and articulately explained my similar reservations.
I suspected something like this would happen, creating a game takes time and lots of iterations, revisions, etc. You don't create a game out of thin air because a license controversy. Plus there are so many good games from indie creators tested by the community over the years. But hey I hope they make millions anyway and keep promoting the hobby.
I mean, yeah, just look at Kobold Press' Tales of the Valiant. It's the same thing - a half-baked meandering clone of 5e with a few good and mostly bad ideas. Same thing.
Well they were already working on this and daggerheart before the OGL scandal. The timing is just coincidental.
@@brianbarrett6316 CO was made by other people and the bought/partnered with them like midst. Daggerheart also wasn't "being worked on before the OGL scandal" unless you're honestly counting Matt saying "I've been thinking about my own game for a while" Which is the equivalent of me saying I've been thinking about writing a book since high school it's not really being "worked on". I refuse to believe them announcing two separate games during the height of the OGL scandal was complete coincidence and you'd be dense to believe so
@@Blubbermage To be completely fair, WOTC scared a lot of creators (even CR), so with a constant flow of content that they need to uphold, it makes sense that they'd want to shift gears ASAP so as not to fall victim to another WOTC scare. The random filler stuff (CO, Midst) do seem to be padding for time.
@SkywalkerOne1977 I honestly don't blame them for getting spooked it was looking really rough there I was just expressing my complete lack of belief that it was entirely coincidence
Thanks for the review! Tbh, I wasn’t ever planning on buying it but this does solidify my interest in it to 0. Though I might still watch the Aabria game (though the success of that game will likely come from the player’s at the table and not the system it looks like).
I trust any of the GMs/Players on CR's Candela Obscura to still make a compelling story despite any system.
"Being born with empathy and a weakness for socialism and femboys." amen brother. same jere. we shall just have to suffer together.
thank you for reviewing this, glad to hear someone honestly and respectfully critiqueing this work. thank you for sharing, keep up the good work! (also this made me research VAESEN and i may or may not have gotten it for myself)
Excellent review.
Thank you so much Seth, that really means a lot coming from you!
I usually identify with a lot of very progressive ideas, people would probably call me woke on twitter lol
That being said, the progressiveness of cr as a general,not just this product, often times feels very...performative. Almost as if they are trying too hard to say what the audience wants to hear. It tastes very...corporate.
Nah theyve had the same stances since before they got big.
Honestly, you're on to something. 90% of the "woke" that people have problems with in the first place is the performative corpo stuff that feels like a smokescreen for something else.
But when the right calls it out, they're treated as though they're attacking the message, and when the left calls it out, they're told to shut up so as not to give the right ammo, which makes it hard to name the demon, as it were, thereby convincing the corpos that it's working and encouranging dangerous behaviours while setting us up for the worst kind of pendulum swing.
I applaud the courage to speak about your honest thoughts about it. Excellent perspective on this book I would not have found anywhere else.
I think maybe what happened is that they approached the game in a streamer state of mind. If you plan to stream or televise your campaign to an audience it makes sence you'd want to have more rigid tenets to reach a wider appeal.
thing is, most people will play this in a group of 4-6 and you can avoid all of that drama with just one text "hey guys, just finished reading the campaign! so theres gonna be some heavy themes in this, if any of you have any subject matter that would make the game not fun for you just send me a private message ill tweak the campaign no worries."
I mean at the end of the day its a game between you and your friends, the goal is always ti have fun
I’m glad to see this video is getting a ton of attention. We need more fair and thorough reviews of game systems with the TTRPG community.
This was an awesome video and review. I've seen your videos before, but this one earned my subscription. Absolutely great stuff
I spent half of this video madly googling vasyn, basin, vaysin and then finally I notice "Vaesen" was right behind you for the whole video
Vaesen is one good alternative rule set; another would be Monster of the Week. Their latest supplement "The Codex of Worlds" has rules additions for variant settings (one of which is "Gothic era") and team playbooks (so that everyone can gain benefits as part of the team, one of which, "Guardians of the Borderlands" fits the Candela Obscura's setting quite well.) So, just adding these 2 additional bits to Monster of the Week is a great alternative to Vaesen for folks that want yet another choice.
absolutely doing the good work out here much support for this kind of earnest and honest and well argued review
CR fan here. Your earnest review earned you a follow. We need more straightforward, honest criticism in the game industry as a whole.
"I just had to be born with empathy and a weakness for socialism and femboys."
Me too, pal, me too.
On the note on H.P lovecraft's views. Did everyone just forget that the man mellowed out? Are people just not allowed to be edgy youngsters anymore? The lack of forgiveness, lack of charity, and the constant beating on him while using his legacy is just as reprehensible as the edgy racism he had.
I only brought it up here because I'm suspicious of their reason to neglect mentioning him, despite being the pioneer of this whole "vibe" they were going for. Lovecraft's racist past is the main reason we see so many TTRPGs bringing up clarifiers around the genre, and I felt like what CR did here was actually quite tasteless.